如何找到你的目标（与亚拉·沙希迪一起）

你正在收听《如何成为更好的人》。

You're listening to How to Be a Better Human.

我是你的主持人克里斯·达菲。

I'm your host, Chris Duffy.

本月在播客中，我们重新审视了自己与工作的关系。

This month on the podcast, we are reexamining our relationship to work.

我们从心理学家盖伊·温奇的新书《心智战胜劳累》开始，探讨了如何预防倦怠，为工作之外的生活腾出空间。

We started with psychologist Guy Winch's new book, Mind Over Grind, and we talked about how to prevent burnout and make space for your life outside of your job.

接着，我们请财经记者马特·莱文为我们解释了经济和金钱相关的问题。

And then we had financial journalist Matt Levine explain the economy and money stuff to us.

但这一周，我们要探讨与工作相关的一个最大问题：你究竟想做什么？

But this week, we are tackling to meet the biggest around work, which is what do you want to do?

弄清楚你想做什么，在很大程度上就是弄清楚你想成为什么样的人。

Figuring out what you want to do is in many ways figuring out who you want to be.

你希望为这个世界贡献什么？

What do you want to contribute to the world?

你想学习什么？

What do you want to learn?

你想和谁在一起？

Who do you want to be surrounded by?

你相信什么？

What do you believe in?

我只是把这些问题说出来就已经感到不知所措了，而我甚至还没打算去回答它们。

I am quite frankly overwhelmed even just saying these questions out loud, and I'm not even trying to answer them.

但今天的嘉宾雅拉·沙希迪，对如何直面这些重大问题有着异常清晰的见解。

But today's guest, Yara Shahidi, is remarkably clear eyed about how to tackle these big questions head on.

你可能通过她在电视剧《黑人一家》和《成长不易》中的获奖表演认识雅拉，但雅拉还是一位制片人、《乐观者计划》播客的主持人，以及哈佛大学的毕业生。

You might know Yara from her award winning work on the TV shows Black ish and Grown ish, but Yara is also a producer, the host of The Optimist Project Podcast, and a Harvard graduate.

换句话说，雅拉在多个不同领域都达到了最高水平的成功。

In other words, Yara has succeeded at the highest levels across many different fields.

当我还在为自己的未来感到气喘吁吁时，雅拉却已经冲过终点线，接着开始设计一条全新的赛道。

And while I'm getting winded just pondering my future, Yara is sprinting across the finish line and then designing a whole new race course.

但亚拉也为每个人，包括我，提供了切实而鼓舞人心的建议。

But Yara also has practical inspiring advice for everyone, including me.

所以今天，我们将与亚拉探讨如何认识自己、理解自己的目标，以及如何决定哪些事情值得答应。

So today, we are talking with Yara about how to understand yourself, how to understand your goals, and how to figure out what you want to say yes to.

为了开启话题，我们先听一段亚拉的TED演讲。

To get us started, here's a clip from Yara's TED Talk.

我小时候和爷爷会用我的小 Polly Pocket 玩偶，重新想象并演绎《奥德赛》的整个故事，就像四岁孩子常做的那样。

My grandpa and I would reimagine and act out the entire saga of the Odyssey with my Polly Pocket dolls as one does at the age of four.

大约五岁时，我要求得到每一本宗教书籍。

And around the age of five, I asked for every religious book.

我是说，每一本宗教书籍。

I mean, every religious book.

快进到十三岁，我读到了詹姆斯·鲍德温的首个短篇故事，我的人生从此彻底改变。

Fast forwarding to 13, I read my first short story from the formidable James Baldwin, and my life was forever changed.

毋庸置疑，我很感激自己身处一个尊重我兴趣的社群中。

Needless to say, I was grateful to be surrounded by a community of people that honored my interests.

但随着我年龄增长，我开始面对一个重大的问题。

But as I got older, I began to get confronted by a big question.

你确定吗？

Are you sure about that?

在2018年8月，当我即将开启下一段旅程时，这个问题我再也无法回避。

Now, this was a question I really could not escape in August 2018, right as I was embarking on my next adventure.

我当时正要进入哈佛大学读大一，同时我的电视剧《成长记》第二季也开始拍摄，我正处于一个十字路口。

I was beginning my freshman year at Harvard right as my television show Grown-ish began filming season two, and I was at a crossroads.

因为对我而言，表演不仅仅是一份职业。

Because acting for me has been more than a career.

它给了我探索自己幻想的许可。

It's given me permission to explore my fantasies.

每当我扮演一个不同的角色时，我都感觉自己多了一层同理心。

I feel like I gain another level of empathy every time I step into a different character's shoes.

但我的教育同样至关重要，因为我的教育满足了我无尽的求知欲——去了解各地、了解塑造我们的历史事件、构建我们的社群、试图阻止我们的障碍、萦绕心头的错误；更自私地说，去了解我自己以及我在世界中的位置。

But my education has been equally as pivotal, because my education has fulfilled my endless desire to know, to know places, to know the events that have shaped us, the communities that have built us, the obstacles that have tried to stop us, the mistakes that haunt us, but selfishly, to know about myself and my place in the world.

因此，我一生热爱的两件事发生了碰撞，学术顾问和娱乐界的人士都告诉我——尽管我的团队里没人这么说——这两个世界之间不存在共生关系。

So my two lifelong passions were colliding, and I was being told by academic advisors and entertainment folk alike, although no one on my team, that there was no symbiotic relationship between the two worlds.

我一直在寻找一种‘兼而有之’的可能性，但我不断被灌输非此即彼的观念。

I was searching for an and, but I kept getting presented in either or.

我差点就被那五个字‘你确定吗？’给拦住了。

And I almost let those five words, are you sure about that, stop me.

现在，我已经从哈佛毕业，我的电视剧也即将完结。

Now, I've graduated from Harvard, and my television show is ending.

几年前，离开这两个我如此熟悉的地方，真的会让我感到恐惧。

And a couple years ago, this really would have terrified me to leave two spaces that I know so well.

但因为我构建了一种以尊重自身兴趣为核心的生活——从钟琴到奥克塔维娅·巴特勒，我满怀兴奋地走向未来，因为我相信，在这两者之间的某个地方，藏着我的下一段冒险。

But because I've built a life centered on honoring my interests, everything from the Glockenspiel to Octavia Butler, I walk excitedly towards what's next because I know somewhere between the two lies my next adventure.

我们马上就会听到亚拉的冒险故事，并学习如何规划我们自己的下一段旅程。

We are gonna hear all about Yara's adventure and figure out how to plot our own next adventure in just a moment.

但在那之前，我们先来听一段简短的播客广告。

But first, we've got the adventure of a quick break for podcast ads.

别走开。

Don't go anywhere.

今天，我们邀请了雅拉·沙希迪，聊聊如何弄清楚什么对你重要，以及你想要做什么。

Today, we're here with Yara Shahidi talking about how to figure out what matters to you and what you want to do.

嗨。

Hey.

我是雅拉·沙希迪。

I'm Yara Shahidi.

我是一名演员、制片人，也是《乐观者计划》的联合创作者。

I'm an actor, producer, and co creator of The Optimist Project.

所以我的第一个问题是，你显然自认为是个乐观主义者。

So my first question for you is, obviously, you identify as an optimist.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也自认为是个乐观主义者。

I also identify as an optimist.

你在TED演讲中提到一件事，我觉得非常有意思，那就是悲观很容易。

You said something in your TED talk that I think is really interesting, is that being a pessimist is easy.

对我来说，这源于我作为青少年和年轻成年人的亲身经历。

That for me came from just lived experience of being a teenager and being a young adult.

我认为在18岁的时候，我曾感到无比充满希望。

And I think there was a moment at 18 where I felt extremely hopeful.

我觉得自己刚刚被赋予了一项新的公民责任。

I felt like I had just been given this new civic duty.

我可以投票了。

I could vote.

我参与了一项投票倡议，因为感受到我们这一代人的活力与共鸣，我感到非常有希望。

I had a voting initiative, and I felt so hopeful because of the energy and synergy of my generation.

但后来我意识到，公民参与的过程以及世界发生的事情是如此复杂。

And I think realizing that the civic process and what happens in the world is so complicated

嗯。

Mhmm.

紧接着，我就进入了一个阶段，不断问自己：我到底在做什么？

That was immediately followed by an era of being like, what am I doing?

任何事吗？

Anything?

什么才是真正有影响的？

And what really has impact?

我得说，即使上大学也加剧了这种感觉，至少对我来说，我长时间沉浸在批判的氛围中。

And I'd have to say, even going to college exacerbated that feeling because you sit so long or speaking for myself, I sat so long in a place of critique.

我学的是社会科学。

I'm in a social science.

你一整天都在阅读、批判，想着：我要是会做得更好，或者好奇他们为什么没在这一构想中考虑X、Y、Z。

All you do all day is read and critique and say, oh, I would have done this better, or I wonder why they didn't consider x y z in this conceit.

所以，我那段悲观的时期幸运地很短暂。

And so my era of pessimism luckily was short lived.

是的。

Uh-huh.

但我学到了很多，因为我从外部观察时意识到，我根本什么都没做成。

But I learned so much because what I realized outside looking in is that I got nothing done.

即使有时这种想法是充满希望甚至略显天真的，我也比坐在悲观中，试图分析所有可能出错的地方或为什么某件事不会成功，取得了更多的成就。

Was that even being hopeful and even slightly naive at times, I accomplished more than sitting in my pessimism and trying to account for all that could go wrong or why something would not work.

我认为，这正是让我走向乐观追求的原因——并不是回到天真的状态，而是说：好吧，我试过另一种方式。

And I think that's what got me to even this pursuit of optimism, not as going back to being naive per se, but as saying, well, I did the other thing

嗯。

Uh-huh.

然后就坐在那里什么也不做。

And sat there and did nothing.

因此，乐观意味着你可能也做不了多少事，但至少你比什么都不做要多做了一些。

And so optimism is the consideration that you may not get much done, but at least you're doing more than nothing.

而且我认为，当你年轻的时候，这一点尤其明显：我可不会就什么都不做。

And I think it's especially clear when you're younger that like, well, I'm not just gonna do nothing.

对。

Right.

无所事事的时间太多了。

There's too much time to do nothing.

所以我必须做点什么。

So I have to do something.

后来很容易陷入对现实或可能性的纠结中。

And it's easy later on to get stuck in the what is realistic or what's possible.

你如何与这种心态抗争？

How do you battle that in yourself?

其中一部分是真正地与人交流。

Some of it is really being in conversation with people.

我认为《乐观者计划》的诞生，正是因为像TED这样的场合。

I think why The Optimist Project came about was because of rooms like TED.

因为与那些让我接触到完全陌生领域、完全陌生话题的人交流，让我感到焕然一新。

And because of how rejuvenating it was to be in conversation with people that have introduced me to a field I knew nothing about, introduced me to a topic I knew nothing about.

我之所以如此热爱学校，是因为没有什么比意识到自己懂得多么少更令人兴奋的了。

And reason why I even loved school as much as I did was because there's nothing as exciting as realizing how little I know.

这意味着可能性之门只是微微开启了一道缝隙。

It means that the door of possibility is just only slightly cracked open.

而且

And

让我个人对抗那些关于现实感、那些悲观情绪的东西，是意识到我正在与百分之零点零零零九八的量级打交道。

something that allows me personally to battle those feelings of what's realistic, those feelings of pessimism, is realizing I'm working with point zero zero zero nine eight.

这甚至是对世界知识总量的完全高估。

That's even a complete overestimation of the world's knowledge.

也许在持续学习的另一端，存在着某种鼓舞人心且富有影响力的东西。

And maybe that there's something inspiring and impactful on the other side of continuing to learn.

是的。

Yeah.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我也很喜欢你表达得如此精准。

I also love how precise you were.

那就是百分之零点零零零九八。

That it was point zero zero zero nine eight.

我喜欢我喜欢

I like I like

那个八七。

the eight seven.

之前的那个计算。

That calculation before.

是的。

Yeah.

我正在用我的综合绩点加上街头智慧，或者说是缺乏街头智慧，来试图得出

I'm working in my general GPA with street smarts or lack thereof trying to come to

啊，我喜欢这个。

a I love that.

绩点加街头智慧，再除以全世界的知识。

GPA plus street smarts divided by all of the world's knowledge.

是的。

Yes.

这就是你到达那里的方法。

That's how you got there.

我想，有很多观看或收听的人会觉得，那扇可能性之门很难打开。

Well, I imagine that there's a lot of people who are watching or listening who feel like that door of possibility is is hard to crack open.

既然你对这个问题思考了很多，对于那些觉得——尤其是现在——可能性之门似乎紧闭的人，你有什么实际的建议吗？

Since you've done a lot of thinking about this, what are some of the practical tips you would offer for people who feel like, especially right now Yeah.

比如，现在压力很大，那扇可能性之门感觉几乎完全关闭了？

Like there's a lot of weight and that door of possibility feels pretty shut?

可能性之门感觉几乎完全关闭了。

The door of possibility feels pretty shut.

我想我甚至在我的演讲中提到过，但我也会转向历史来看待这个问题。

I think I even said this in my talk, but it's where I turn to history as well.

我真的从我们社会经历过的许多艰难时刻中找到了希望，那些时刻都需要付出巨大努力才能突破。

And I really do find hope in how many moments we've gone through just as a society that have felt extremely difficult, that have taken lots of effort to push through.

我第一个纹身是1963年，虽然你看不太清楚。

So one of my first tattoos, which you can't really see, is 1963.

它只写着‘63’，代表1963年。

It just says 63 for the year 1963.

对我来说，它提醒我，有太多人为了一个他们无法保证的未来而努力，但他们深知这是必须争取的。

And for me, it's a reminder that there's so many people that work towards a future they weren't guaranteed, but knew was necessary to fight for.

我认为，我今天所拥有的世界，正是源于那些人的付出。

I think of it as a world that I was able to inherit because of that work.

所以我说这些，是为了明确一点：有时候我必须讨论，这些努力究竟是为了谁。

And so I say that to really frame, Sometimes I have to have conversations about who is this work for.

这些努力，从自私的角度看，是为了我们自己，为了当下，是当下所必需的。

This work self servingly is for us and for right now and is necessary for right now.

而从最平等的角度来说，

And at its most, you know, kind of egalitarian.

它是为了未来，是为了朝着我们可能看不到、但深知必须追求的目标前进。

It's for the future and it's working towards something that we may not be able to see, but know is necessary.

在更实际的层面上，过去几年我一直记录着我们所谓的‘硬性肯定清单’。

And then on a less esoteric level, there's certain just practical things of being like, the last couple years, I've been tracking what we call the Hard Yes list.

这个想法源于它真的太棒了。

And this came from it was such a great thing.

能和既是商业伙伴又是朋友、还恰好是家人的人一起工作，我们有很多深刻的人生对话。

Being able to work alongside your business partner who also happens to be your friend, who you also happen to be related to, we have a lot of great life talks.

在谈论生活质量时，我们逐渐意识到——对于可能不了解的人，我指的是凯莉·沙希迪，也就是我妈妈，同时也是我在所有美好事物中的合作伙伴。

And one thing that we're figuring out as we talk quality of life, I realized for for people that may not know, I'm talking about Carrie Shahidi, a k a my mother, a k my partner in all things wonderful.

于是，我们开始发展出一个我们称之为‘硬性肯定清单’的东西，记录那些能带给你快乐的事物。

And so we started developing what we just call the Hard Yes list of things that bring you joy.

这些内容可以非常广泛。

And it can really range.

它可以是某种颜色、某种食物、某个人，或是一次对话。

It can range from a color, a food, a person, a conversation you had.

我们的想法是，你必须建立一套属于自己的支持清单，随时带在身边，作为后盾。

And the thought was you have to build your arsenal of things to fall back on and have that in your back pocket at all times.

这些年来，能够不断为这份清单添砖加瓦真是太好了，当我身处那些时刻时，重点不再只是硬撑过去，而是想想：现在我能做些什么，来真正地让我重新振作起来？

And it was so nice to be able to, throughout the years, kind of contribute to this list so that when I was hitting those moments, it's not so much always about persevering through those moments, but being like, what can I do right now that provides an actual material reset for me?

因为我这一年一直在留意那些时刻，一有感觉就赶紧记下来。

And because I've been paying attention through the year of having those moments of, oh, let me write this down.

我在听音乐会时，感到内心无比充实。

I'm at a concert and I feel so filled up.

我超爱现场音乐。

I love live music.

或者，我开始优先安排和朋友喝咖啡，这让我获得了这种感觉。

Or I've been prioritizing getting coffee with friends and this has brought me this feeling.

或者，你知道吗，亚拉，当你情绪低落时，别总穿全黑衣服了，因为我知道颜色对你提升心情有多重要。

Or, you know, Yara, you need to stop wearing all black when you're feeling down because I know how important color is to lifting your mood.

我积累了这么多精彩纷呈的回溯点。

Had all of these really cool mix of things to turn back to.

所以，这是我特别喜欢的一件事——我觉得每个人都能为自己做到，而这一切始于对日常生活的细致观察。

And so that's one thing that I love that I feel like everybody has the ability to do for themselves, which just starts with basic observation of your day to day.

我非常喜欢‘硬性肯定’清单。

I love the Hard Yes list.

我以前从来没听说过这个。

I've never heard that.

这是个绝妙的主意。

That's such a great idea.

我之前都没给它起过名字。

I had no name for it.

但我的桌子上放着一张纸，上面写着：出去走走，吃点好的，见个人，学点新东西，大笑一场。

But on my desk, I have a a thing that says, go outside, eat something good, meet someone, learn something, laugh hard.

太棒了。

Love that.

我就想，如果每天能完成其中几项，就是美好的一天。

And I'm just like, if I can do a few of these every day, it's a good day.

是的。

Yeah.

但我喜欢这个‘硬性肯定清单’的想法。

But I love that idea of it's a hard yes list.

是的。

Yeah.

这个想法源于我有一整年都说‘不’的经历。

Came from the fact that I had a year of no.

所以我称之为‘我的不之年’，因为那时我只是在行使我的自由意志，告诉自己：我不想做那件事。

And so I'd called it my year of no because it was me exercising just my my free will of being like, I'm not trying to do that.

不。

No.

我对如何花费自己的时间变得非常明确。

Being really precise about where I wanted to spend my time.

但‘不之年’之后，紧接着是‘肯定之年’。

But then the year of no was followed by a year of yes.

但这个‘肯定之年’并不奏效，因为这不仅仅是对所有事情都说‘好’。

But the year of yes was not cutting it because it wasn't just about saying yes to everything.

关键是，我要对答应的事情同样保持敏锐，这不仅帮助了我的职业发展，也帮助了我的人生旅程。

It was about actually being just as discerning about what I was saying yes to and what not only helped, let's say, in my career journey, but just in my life journey.

这就是‘坚定的Yes清单’的由来，即当你听到某件事时，那一刻是否能毫不犹豫地答应？

And that's where the Hard Yes list came in, which was what is that thing that is an undeniable yes the moment you hear it?

但生活并不总是充满这样的时刻，我们该如何主动为自己增添这些珍贵的瞬间？

And life isn't always filled with those, so how can we take it into our own hands to sprinkle those things in?

是的。

Yeah.

我特别喜欢这一点，因为我的视角总是带着喜剧和幽默的眼光。

One thing I love about this is, you know, I always see things a little bit through the lens of comedy and humor.

我觉得人们有时认为幽默是肤浅的，觉得它不够严肃，好像真正严肃的人就是悲观者，不相信希望。

And I think that people sometimes think that it's, like, frivolous or that it's lighter and that, like, serious people are pessimists and serious people don't believe there's hope.

如果你相信希望，别人会觉得你没看透现实，或者观察得不够深刻。

That if you think there is, you're kind of you don't get it or you're not observing as deeply.

我特别欣赏你的‘坚定的Yes清单’，也欣赏你对乐观的看法，因为你并没有否认现实。

And one thing I love about, one, your Hard Yes list, but also just the way you think about optimism is that it's not like you're denying reality.

实际上，要真正做到承认这一点并找到前进的道路，需要付出很多努力。

It takes actually a lot of work to be like, I'm gonna acknowledge this, and I'm going to find a path forward.

我要找到一种前进的方式，而不是任由现状继续下去。

I'm gonna find a way that I can move forward that's not just letting it be the way it is.

这实际上比那些说事情很糟糕、永远都不会改变的人认真多了，确实如此。

It actually is taking it way more seriously than the people who say it's bad and it's always gonna be Absolutely.

有趣的是，我觉得这其实得到了支持，我想是洛里·桑托斯博士，她负责幸福课程，她甚至说过。

And what's nice is I feel like that's actually backed up by I I think it's doctor Lori Santos who runs Oh, yeah.

我们总以为怀疑和悲观才是更理智、更高阶、更现实的看待世界的方式，但这也同样充满天真。

The class on happiness, who had even said that we think that skepticism and pessimism is the more intellectual, higher brow, more realistic way of seeing the world, but that involves just as much naivete

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像极度乐观一样。

As being extremely blissful, let's say.

在乐观主义项目的过程中，我们并不是一开始就觉得自己已经完全掌握了乐观。

And part of when we're on the journey of The Optimist Project The Optimist Project didn't start from this feeling of, oh, we got optimism nailed.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

它源于

It was

更多是因为这需要付出大量努力。

more so from the fact that it takes a lot of work.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种你需要每天培养、不断投入的东西，因为生活充满挑战。

And it's something that you have to cultivate daily, and it's something that you have to pour into because life is challenging.

我们正承认这一点。

And we're acknowledging that.

乐观不是在你状态最好时才存在的东西，而是在你最糟糕的日子里为自己坚持下去的方式。

Optimism is not what exists in a vacuum on your best day, but how you're pulling through for yourself on your worst days.

因此，我们通过与社会学家和娱乐人士的对话得出的结论是：如果快乐是一种感受，那么乐观就是一种实践，是在所有挑战中依然为这份快乐而奋斗。

And so so much of what we came to even from having conversations with sociologists and entertainers was that if joy is the feeling, optimism is the practice, and it is the fighting for that joy even amidst all of the challenges.

这不是忽视世界。

It's not about ignoring the world.

而是认真对待这个世界，明白要在这样的世界中生存，需要大量的工具、大量的自我投入，以及大量的社区投入。

It's about taking the world very seriously and knowing that in order to function in this world, it requires so many tools, so much pouring into self, so much pouring into community.

我们该如何去做呢？

And how are we gonna go about that?

嗯，我想稍微回溯一下，你之前提到过你手臂上纹着1963的纹身。

Well, wanna kinda go back to something, which is you were talking about your tattoo that says 1963.

在我自己的探索旅程中，试图学习、理解，也反思我被这个世界教育的方式，我觉得我有时感受到的悲观和震惊，确实是一种非常白人的体验。

And as I've been on my own, you know, journey to try and learn and understand and also think about the ways that I've been educated in the world, I do think that some of the like pessimism and shock that I sometimes feel is like a very white experience.

确实如此。

It is.

就是觉得，以前一切都很好，现在却两年都不好了，这太糟糕了。

To be like, things were good, and now they're not good for two years, and that's so bad.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，记住在美国，情况并不是突然在某一年间民权就实现了，工作就结束了。

And I think that remembering that like, in The United States Of America, right, like, it has it's not like there was a one year period where all of a sudden, like, civil rights happened and the work is done.

对吧？

Right?

而是经历了数百年，至今仍是一个持续的过程。

That it was like hundreds of years and continues to be a process.

对我来说，反思自己的震惊很有意义：难道事情不应该是立即发生的吗？

I think that for me is good to like take a look at my own shock and be like, but aren't things supposed to happen immediately?

而应该意识到，这是一份工作，你可能看不到结果，你的孩子也可能看不到，但你可以推动改变。

And instead realize like it's work and you don't get there and your kids might not get there, but you can move things.

当你从代际旅程的角度思考时，你如何平衡承认挫折与保持向前推进的历史视野？

As you think about it as like a generational journey, how do you think about the balance between, like, acknowledging setbacks Mhmm.

以及在这种历史视角下，如何依然保持推动进步的愿景？

And also still having a vision for moving things forward in that historical perspective?

对。

Right.

我很喜欢这个观察，因为我觉得你说得对。

Well, I love that observation because I think you're right.

而且从代际角度来看，人们也会对不再像以前那样紧密联系于过去感到些许震惊。

And I think generationally, there's a bit of that shock as well of not necessarily being as tethered or tied to our past in the same way.

因此，当你出生在一个世代，而我想到我和我弟弟之间的差异时——我们虽然只差八岁，但都属于Z世代——也会感到惊讶。

And so there is a bit of shock of being, like, if you were born into a generation in which when I think of the discrepancies between my brother and I, who are eight years apart but still gen z

是的。

Mhmm.

他出生时，婚姻平等已经实现了。

And he was born into a world in which marriage equality was a thing Mhmm.

等他进入青春期的时候。

By the time he hit, like, adolescence.

而就在八年前，我生命中的很大一部分时光，仍是在为这个目标而斗争。

And even just eight years back, we I had lived a great chunk of my life while that was still being fought for.

所以，想到即使在短短几年内，事情就从被争取的目标变成了理所当然，而现在我们才意识到，它其实并不是理所当然的。

And so thinking that even in a couple year span, things went from being fought for to being a given, And now we're kind of at a phase where we're realizing, oh, it's not a given.

我可能没有亲身参与过那些为它奋斗的岁月，我出生时以为这已经是理所当然的事，以为我们不会倒退。

I may not have been there for a while people were fighting for it, and I was born into a world where I thought this was just a thing and that we weren't going backwards.

但现在我们正处在一个阶段，我认为我们很多人都在实时意识到，我们继承了如此多伟大的成果，Mhmm。

But now we're at a phase where I think so many of us are realizing in real time that we have been the inheritors of so much great work Mhmm.

这些成果需要不断争取和维护。

That has to be fought for and has to be maintained.

当风向有利、推动世界变得更好时，很多事确实很容易去争取。

There's a lot of stuff that is kind of easy to fight for when it's like making the world better when the wind is at your back.

对吧？

Right?

当所有人都支持某件事时，要表态支持它真的很容易。

Like, it's really easy to be like, I'm for this thing that everyone is for.

但当风向转变，突然发现其实并不是所有人都支持这件事时，情况就不同了。

And then when the winds shift and all of a sudden, it's actually like, well, maybe everyone's not for that thing.

这可能是众多议题中的任何一个。

It could be one of so many topics.

对吧？

Right?

它可能是当前最热门的流行词。

It could be like whatever the current buzzword is.

它可能是DEI（多元、公平与包容）。

It could be like DEI.

它可能是性别包容性。

It could be gender inclusivity.

它可能是任何事情。

It could be anything.

当这个播客发布时，我不知道那时的热点会是什么。

When this podcast comes out, I have no idea what the current thing will be.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

当风向转变时，你如何找到理由去说：这件事真的值得冒险，我会继续为之奋斗，而不是仅仅因为别人都在说，我才跟着说？

When the winds shift, how do you find the way of saying like, this is actually worth it being risky, and I I'm going to keep fighting for that versus like, well, I was kinda just saying something that everyone else was saying.

这正是我目前非常困扰的问题。

It that is something I'm really struggling with right now.

这是个非常好的问题，因为我从未直接谈论过，但我确实从不同角度思考过。

It's such a great question because it's nothing I've directly talked about, but thought about it in different ways.

甚至在我创作《黑人家庭》这个世界观时，媒体环境中曾有一段时期，拥有声音、成为活动家是非常酷的事。

And that even when I was coming up with the world of Black ish, there was an era in the media landscape in which it was so cool to be an actor with a voice and to be an activist.

所以他们甚至会问你一些很低级的问题，比如：你是否相信人类应该平等？

And so they'd even ask you, you know, just like lowball questions of like, do you believe humans should be equal?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yes.

然后封面宣传就成了为人权而战。

And then the cover would be fighting for human rights.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

雅拉·沙希迪表明了立场。

Yara Shahidi takes a stance.

这深深触动了我，让我想到那种渴望——认为拥有声音、积极参与政治是很酷的事，这正是我们塑造新榜样的方式：那些敢于进行这些对话的人。

And that just really spoke to what I'd think of is this yearning to say, oh, it's cool to have this voice and to be politically active, and that's our new way of creating role models, people that are unafraid to have those conversations.

但again，这曾经是潮流。

But again, it was in vogue.

是的。

Yeah.

而现在，我们正处于一个不再那么流行的时代。

And now we're in a time or we're experiencing a time in which it is a lot less in vogue.

我认为，正如你所说，表达观点的代价正在重新浮现——几年前，这种观点还只是你提到的那样，我们有数以百万计的人参加妇女大游行，表达同样的信念。

And I think there's a reintroduction of stakes, like you're saying, to having an opinion that even a couple years ago would have just been, to your point, you know, we have full women's marches with millions of people saying that they believe the same thing.

我们有这个。

We have this.

我们有那个。

We have that.

所有这些都在确认我做的是对的。

All of these things reaffirming that I'm in the right.

我并没有一个明确的答案来回答这个问题。

And I don't necessarily have a clear answer for that.

我得说，根据我所听到的，我姑姑经常提到的一个家庭对话是‘最高优先级’。

I'd have to say, pulling from what's been given to me, one family conversation we have a lot that was introduced by my aunt is highest order.

你的最高优先级是什么？

What's your highest order?

关于‘最高优先级’，有太多相关的说法了。

And there's so many words for highest order.

你也可以用‘你的优先事项是什么？’来代替它。

You could replace it with what are your priorities?

什么能打动你？

What moves you?

你的目标是什么？

What's your purpose?

但我觉得，‘最高优先级’是一种方式，用来概括那三件事——也就是你感觉自己的行动受其驱动，或希望自己的行动受其驱动的事情。

But highest order, I think, is a way of capturing what are the three things, let's say, that you feel like your actions are driven from or you want your actions to be driven from.

我喜欢‘最高优先级’这个说法，是因为它能让你从宏观层面思考：我应该为什幺正奋斗？

And what I like about highest order is that you can take that on this macro scale of what should I be fighting for.

我希望我的人生充满意义和影响力，如此这般。

I want my life to be one of purpose, impact, this or that.

你也可以在更小的尺度上使用它，比如就这个项目而言。

And you can take it on a smaller scale, like for the sake of this project.

我的最高优先级是分享信息和促进可及性。

My highest order is sharing information and accessibility.

你可能会面对这样一个人，他的最高优先级是赚钱和创造代际财富。

And you may be sitting across from someone whose highest order is making money and creating generational wealth.

这并不是说哪一个最高优先级比另一个更好，但我想用这番长篇大论来说明：在我们面对这些对话时，我带来的不是答案，而是我们一直在使用的工具——那就是大量关于‘最高优先级’的对话，当我们静下心来面对自己时。

And it's not to say one highest order is better than the other, but this is my long winded way of saying, as we've been facing these conversations, I come less with answers and more just with the tools we've been employing, which is a lot of conversations on highest order on when we sit with ourselves.

无论你在这条路上走了多久，要求我们一定要有答案，都是不公平的。

I think it's unfair to expect us to have answers even no matter how long you've been living this life.

我认为，在面对这一刻时，要求自己必须带着清晰的思路进来是不公平的。

I think it's unfair to face this moment and think that you should be walking in with clarity.

所以我们值得拥有空间，静下心来好好思考：好吧。

And so we deserve the space to really be sitting and thinking, okay.

到目前为止，我的人生一直以追求影响力为目标，但如今却出现了新的障碍和更高的风险。

My life up to this point, I feel like has moved from a place of wanting to be of impact, but right now presents new obstacles, new new stakes.

你有权利拥有这样的空间，去认真思考这些问题。

And you deserve the right to have that space to be able to think it through.

我有幸上过几门科尔文·韦斯特的课。

You know, I've been lucky enough to sit in a couple Cornell West classes.

我特别喜欢韦斯特教授，因为他在我眼中体现了乐观精神——我想不到还有谁像他这样，对世界上发生的每一件坏事都如此细致入微地觉察。

And professor West, I just love because he's somebody that, to me, captures optimism in that I couldn't think of someone that is so granularly aware of every bad thing happening in the world Mhmm.

但他却如此充满喜悦。

And yet so joyous Mhmm.

如此充满希望，如此充满爱。

So hopeful, so loving.

他每堂课都会说一句话，我记得第一次听到时，我点了点头，假装自己明白了。

And one thing he says in every class, I feel like the first time I heard him say say it, I nodded and pretended like I got it.

但他其实想说的是，成为生活的一部分，意味着要与灾难亲密相处。

But he was saying, you know, some of being a part of life is being on intimate terms with catastrophe.

而且

And

每当我听到这句话，我都觉得它对我有了新的含义。

I feel like that phrase develops new meaning for me every time I hear it.

有时候，这句话非常有道理。

Sometimes it makes a lot of sense.

有时候我会想：我真的理解这句话的意思吗？

Sometimes I'm like, do I understand what that means?

但我觉得，至少在我的人生中，现在就是这样一个时刻，我甚至不得不说，这对我们所有人来说都是如此，是的。

But I feel like this is one of those moments, at least in my life, and I'd have to speak go so far as to say communally Yeah.

我们正在理解与灾难亲密相处的真正含义。

In which we're understanding what it means to be on intimate terms with catastrophe.

至于你提到的最早这一点，这是我们许多社区一代又一代不得不面对的事情。

And to your earliest point, it's something that so many of our communities have had to do for generation after generation.

只是恰好轮到我们了。

It just happens to be our turn.

是的。

Yeah.

这种说法真得很美好。

It's it's a beautiful way of putting it.

真的很有帮助。

It's really helpful.

而且

And

当然。

Absolutely.

我真心觉得，这已经不再局限于那些公众人物或名人了，尤其是在社交媒体盛行的今天。

And I'd honestly say that it's not even reserved for people that are public facing or celebrities anymore, especially with social media.

人们迫切需要及时对发生的每一件事发表评论，以证明自己在思考，证明自己在乎。

There's such a need to comment on everything that's happened in a timely way to prove that you're thinking about it, to prove that you care.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道，作为互联网上的年轻人，同时又是一个拥有公共平台的演员，这种感觉被大大放大了——当我浏览我的Instagram时，它看起来就像无需订阅的CNN快讯。

And I know the intersection for me of being a young person on the Internet and being, you know, an actor that had this public platform really amplified that of feeling like there was a moment where looking at my Instagram, it looked like CNN Light, the one that you don't need a subscription for.

因为很多内容都源自真实的情感，但同时又觉得：哦，我得告诉你我对这件事的看法。

Because so much of it was coming from a really authentic place, but feeling like, oh, I need to tell you what I think of this.

人们期待我表达对这个时刻的看法，但这些事的范围从自然灾害，到世界上正在发生的大事，再到某人获奖了，我想表达对他的支持。

And people are expecting me to say what I think of this moment that's happened, but it really ranged from natural disasters to this thing that's happening in the world to, oh, this person won an award, and I I wanna show my love for this person.

虽然这些表达源于真实情感，但也被一种强烈的本能放大了：人们期待我对此有看法。

And while it comes from a real place, it also was amplified by exactly that instinct of being like, people expect that I have a thought on this.

所以我需要让大家知道我对这件事的想法。

And so I need to let people know what I'm thinking about this.

曾经有一刻，我个人觉得：首先，有些事情发生了，而我并没有什么想法。

And there was a moment just personally where it was like, first of all, some things started happening that I didn't have thoughts on.

是的。

Yeah.

我开始逐渐感到自在，一方面，当我看着我敬仰的人时，发现他们都非常博学。

And I I started to become comfortable, one, in saying, just like when I look at the people that I look up to, they're extremely well studied.

而且这种博学不仅仅是指他们拥有某些学位。

And not just well studied in that, oh, they have certain degrees.

即使是生活这所大学，嗯。

Even if it's the school of life Mhmm.

他们在谈论的事情上都在认真思考。

They are thinking about the thing that they're speaking about.

他们经常在与之搏斗。

They're grappling with it regularly.

所以我去上学的部分原因，以及我现在以稍微不同的方式表达观点的原因，是因为我意识到，与其说我的观众值得什么，不如说我有权利对自己所关心的事情做到博学多闻。

And so part of why I went to school and part of even kind of my the way I'm now approaching how I speak about things a little differently was because I was like, more than more than thinking about what my audience deserves, I deserve the right to be well studied on things that I'm moved by.

而因为我14岁时出演了一部毫不避讳探讨这些重大议题的剧集，这意味着我拥有了话筒，人们会问我对警察暴力的看法。

And because I was 14 and I was on a show that was unabashedly taking on these big topics, it meant that I had a mic and had people asking me about what is my take on police brutality.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尽管我非常感激为我创造的观众，但这意味着我仍有许多人生经历需要去积累，才能真正形成完整的观点。

And while I'm so grateful for the audience that's created for me, it meant that there was still so much life for me to live to really develop full opinions.

当我成为学生时，我并没有突然拿到学位就拥有了所有答案。

And when I became, you know, a student, I don't think I suddenly came out with a degree and all the answers by any means.

但它给了我空间，去深入探索我真正关心的事物，并学习那些我有意或无意中一直在谈论的话题——这些话题，某些运动已经探讨了几十年、几代人。

But it gave me the space to actually dive deep into the things that I've really cared about and to learn about I've, whether intentionally or not, been speaking about things that certain movements have been addressing for decades, generations.

我该如何融入这个图景？

How am I fitting into that picture?

我认为自己在其中的角色是什么？

What do I think my role is in that?

我的角色一直在变化。

And my role keeps changing.

但当我毕业、开始思考重新发出自己的声音时，其中一部分原因在于：为了让我的声音产生影响，谈论问题时必须稍微具体一些。

But when I came out of school and when I was then thinking about reintroducing my own voice, some of it came from, in order for my voice to have impact, it's important to be a little granular about what you speak on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且可以说，哦，我对那方面了解不多，或者哦，我尊重那位我认为对此有深刻见解的人。

And it's okay to say, oh, I don't have much information on that or, oh, I defer to this person who I think has a really well formed opinion on the matter.

但我认为这对每个人来说都一样。

But I think the same goes for everybody.

我恰好处于一种可能被夸大的情境中，作为一名演员，经常接受大量访谈，这些情况就会发生。

I happen to be in this, you know, maybe exaggerated situation of being an actor and and doing a lot of interviews where those things happen.

但我们很多人都在经历这样的时刻：

But so many of us are dealing with those moments of being like

是的。

Yeah.

即使在朋友层面，我也没看到你分享过这件事。

Even on a friend level, I didn't see you share about this.

对我来说，这与乐观主义有关，因为如果你相信世界可以变得更好，如果你相信人们可以获得更多资讯、事情可以改变，那你某种程度上也必须相信，人们是可以改变、获得更多信息、学习成长的，一个人的错误或当前的无知并不意味着他们就会永远停留在那里。

To me, this intersects with optimism because if you believe that the world can get to be a better place, if you believe that people can become more informed and things can change, you kind of also have to believe that, like, people can change and get more informed and learn and that someone's mistake or current ignorance is not where they're gonna end up.

我觉得，对我来说，我最必须相信的一点是，我们并非固定不变，事情也不是一成不变的，而是我们能够成长和改变。

I feel like for me, of the things that I just have to believe in the most is that we're not set, that things aren't fixed, but that we can grow and change.

对我来说，这与乐观主义紧密相关。

And for me, that's really tied to optimism.

我相信任何人都能在这些方面成长和改变，这正是让我保持乐观的原因。

Like, my belief that anyone can grow and change in all of these ways is what allows me to be an optimist.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尤其是作为年轻人。

Especially as a young person.

我觉得很多人挣扎的一点是，必须觉得自己已经一切都弄明白了。

I think something that people struggle with a lot is like having to feel like it's figured out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

必须知道自己将来会成为什么样的人，并拥有清晰的愿景。

Having to know who you're gonna be and have a vision.

所以，再次说，我觉得你对这一点的体现有些夸张，但我觉得这非常有启发性。

And so, again, I think you had an exaggerated version of this, but I think that that can be really informative.

而且我觉得你上过一档热门电视节目，同时还是哈佛的学生，这两种身份在某些方面根本完全不搭。

And I think you were on a hit TV show, and you were a student at Harvard, and you had these two identities that in some ways really don't match up at all.

你不得不思考：我是谁？我关心什么？我是否既是这两者，又不止于此？

And you had to figure out who am I, and what do I care about, and am I both of these things plus more?

这是否只是一个我正在定义的身份？

Is this one identity that I'm defining?

那么，你是如何，现在又是如何思考自己身上的这些细微差别的呢？

So how do you how did you and how do you still think about, like, the nuances of yourself?

很长一段时间里，我都知道自己想当一名学生。

For so long, I knew I wanted to be a student.

我知道自己是个书呆子。

I knew that I was a nerd.

这是我很确定的一个身份。

That was an identity I was very sure about.

我从出生那一刻起就一直是个书呆子。

I've been a nerd, yeah, since the moment I I hopped out the womb.

什么都没变。

Nothing has changed.

所以我非常感激，我出生在一个家庭环境中，让我能够同时做很多事情——我的演艺事业并没有阻碍我上学，也没有阻碍我追求对历史的热爱。

And so I'm grateful that, you know, I was I was born into just kind of a family model where I was able to be all the things for a while, where my acting career didn't stop me from being in school or stop me from pursuing my love of history.

直到我14岁开始出演《黑人一家》时，才第一次不得不做出一些选择，因为这是我职业生涯中第一次要拍摄一部会占据全年大部分时间的电视剧。

And then it really wasn't until I started Black ish at the age of 14 where the first kind of sets of decisions had to be made because it was the first time in my career up to that point where I was filming a television show that was gonna take up the majority of the year.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在此之前，我一边上学，一边抽空去拍电影，或者进行远程学习之类的。

And up to that point, I'd be in school, I'd pop out for a movie, and I'd do distance learning, or I'd do something like that.

而这次是第一次，我开始重新思考，我们也在重新考虑生活将如何安排。

Whereas this was the first time where it was like, okay, I'm kind of reconsidering, and we're reconsidering what life is going to be configured.

我们该如何为过去所有曾被兼顾的事情腾出空间呢？

And and how are we gonna make space for all the things that we had made space for before?