#182 - Scaling Growth Through Smarter Investment with Action Behavior Centers

欢迎收听Ignite播客，这是唯一深入探讨数字营销策略与技巧的医疗健康营销播客，助你加速业务增长。

Welcome to the Ignite podcast, the only health care marketing podcast that digs into the digital strategies and tactics that help you accelerate growth.

每周，Cardinal的专家都会分享如何打造强大的数字形象，吸引更多患者。

Each week, Cardinal's experts explore innovative ways to build your digital presence and attract more patients.

准备好了吗？接下来是Ignite的又一期精彩内容。

Buckle up for another episode of Ignite.

欢迎回到Ignite医疗营销播客。

Welcome back to Ignite Healthcare Marketing Podcast.

是的。

Yeah.

我是Alex。

I'm Alex.

今天这期节目绝对精彩，太带劲了。

Today's episode is gonna be a blast, dude.

跟往常有点不一样。

It's a little different.

我们平时不这么做。

We usually don't do this.

我们通常不会重复别人说过的话，但这次的复述真的值得。

We usually don't regurgitate, but this is a good regurgitation.

我们这次要带来一档特别的环节，来自《Scaling Up》的精彩内容。不同于我们惯常的二十分钟格式，这次我们完整呈现了与Action Behavior Centers的一次深度对话。

We've got a really special session from scaling up and instead of our twenty minute format, we're featuring one of the talked about sessions we had with Action Behavior Centers.

ABC是全美最大的自闭症儿童ABA疗法服务机构，他们运营着大约350个中心，全面应用先进的数字媒体分析工具，各种前沿玩法都有。

ABC is the largest provider of ABA therapy for children with autism, and they've got about 350 centers running really advanced digital media measurement analytics, all this kind of fun stuff.

你将听到ABC的首席营销官马特·斯廷格，以及我们首席战略官里奇·布里德洛克的分享。

You're gonna hear from Matt Stringer, ABC CMO, along with our chief strategy officer, Rich Briddock.

接下来的四十五分钟里，你们会听到一场毫无保留的对话，讲的是如何把一家多机构、复杂的医疗健康组织的营销业务真正做大——从搭建数据监测体系、解决归因难题，到测试新渠道、平衡线索质量与数量，再到如何赢得高管层的信任。

And over the next forty five minutes, guys, you're gonna hear real unfiltered conversation about what it takes to scale marketing complex multi location healthcare organization from building measurement foundations and fixing attribution to testing new channels, managing lead quality versus volume, earning trust with the C suite along the way.

如果你正打算在明年拓展媒体投放组合，又不想浪费一分钱，那就倒杯咖啡，坐稳了，接下来的内容绝对让你大开眼界，学到不少干货。

If going into this next year, you're looking to expand your media mix and all that kind of fun stuff without wasting any money, grab your coffee, settle in, you're about to have a blast and learn some new shiznit.

感谢你的收听。

Thanks for joining us.

今天这个话题和这个故事真的特别棒。

Today is a really cool topic and a really cool story.

我很期待用整整四十五分钟，和Matt好好聊聊Action Behavior是怎么通过更聪明的投资策略实现增长的。

I'm excited to spend a full forty five minutes just talking with Matt about how action behavior has scaled growth through smarter investment strategy.

我觉得这正是我们刚结束的CMO对话里提到的内容。

And I think that's a topic that we just left our CMO session.

大家都说，明年得用更少的资源做更多的事。

Everyone was talking about, I have to do more with less next year.

我关注的是效率。

I'm focused on efficiency.

我关注的是实际成果。

I'm focused on outcomes.

这会是今天讨论的核心主题。

That's going to be a major theme of today.

我们请Matt和Rich上屏幕吧。

Let's get Matt and Rich up here on the screen.

他们马上就会上线，取消静音，打开摄像头

They're going to pop in, unmute, turn their cameras

谢谢邀请我参加

Thank you for having me.

感谢今天的交流

Thanks for the discussion today.

我是马特·斯廷格

I am Matt Stringer.

我担任Action Behavior Centers的首席营销官

I'm the CMO at Action Behavior Centers.

ABC是全美最大的儿童自闭症循证ABA疗法服务机构

ABC is the nation's largest provider of evidence based ABA therapy for children with autism.

我们在早期干预方面特别专注，致力于提供最有效的治疗方案

We specialize with early intervention in terms of the treatment we're looking to deliver.

我们在六个州拥有超过三百五十家中心

We have over three fifty centers across six states.

作为首席营销官，我的职责涵盖整个增长引擎，包括获客、数据分析、客户关系管理、品牌创意和营销运营。

My role as CMO really covers the full growth engine, demand gen, data analytics, CRM, creative brand, marketing ops.

我们公司的核心目标是让家庭能立即获得治疗服务，帮助更多被诊断为自闭症谱系障碍的孩子。

As an organization, really our primary focus is on creating immediate access to care, trying to help as many families with children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder.

太棒了，Matt。

Awesome, Matt.

很高兴有你加入。

It's so great to have you.

我真的很期待。

I'm excited.

你们机构做了太多了不起的事。

Your organization does so many great things.

我们Cardinal特别喜欢在ABA领域开展合作。

We at Cardinal absolutely love working in the ABA space in particular.

我们马上就开始深入探讨。

So we'll dive in here in just a minute.

里奇，你能简单打个招呼吗？

Rich, do you wanna say hello real quick?

我知道你一会儿会加入讨论，等我们先让马特介绍一下今年组织面临的挑战，但你先简单说几句，给我们做个开场。

I know you're gonna join the conversation here in a few minutes after we set the stage with Matt on what the organization is up against this year, but I'll have you just say hello real quick to kick us off.

是的。

Yeah.

很高兴再次参加 Scaling Up 大会。

Great to be here at Scaling Up again.

我是 Cardinal 的首席战略官里奇·布里德科克，从 ABC 成为 Cardinal 的客户以来，我就一直和他们合作。过去十二个月，我们共同推动了显著的增长，这段旅程令人振奋，未来还有更多可期待的。

Rich Briddock, chief strategy officer at Cardinal, and I've been working with ABC since they became a client of Cardinal's, and it's been really exciting to see the journey in terms of the growth that we've been able to deliver together as a partnership over the last twelve months, and there's a lot more to come.

现在才刚刚开始打基础，但我相信接下来我们会做更多工作，继续推动增长，保持这个势头。

So this is just the very beginning of getting our foundations in place, but I think there's gonna be a lot more work that we're gonna be doing to drive that growth and continue on this trajectory.

很高兴能来参加，也很期待接下来的对话。

So great to be here, and I'm looking forward to the conversation.

马特，我刚才已经给你铺垫过了。

Matt, I kinda teed this up already.

我刚才让你简单做个介绍，但如果我们再花一两分钟，我想趁这个机会多聊聊‘规模’这个话题——我们待会儿会花很多时间讨论如何扩大市场营销，但我觉得更重要的是你们实际触达的人数、行为干预系统的复杂性，以及你们在操作中运行的那些微观系统。

I had you give a quick intro, but if we wanna spend just another minute or two, I think as we talk about scale, which we're gonna spend a lot of time about how we scale the marketing, but I think just the scale of action behavior, the number of lives you guys touch, and the complexity of the system and the kind of micro systems within action behavior that you're running.

你能再详细说说你们公司整体的规模吗？

I would love for you to share a little bit more about the size and scale of the org itself.

这家公司八年前成立，总部在奥斯汀，这几年增长非常快。

The company was started about eight years ago and has had really exponential growth headquartered in Austin.

最初我们只打算开一家中心，但很快发现需求远超预期，于是开始在德克萨斯州扩展。

Really, the intention was one center, then it was really easy to see quickly that there was a lot more need that needed to be served and extension through Texas.

现在我们已经覆盖了六个州，而且随着增长势头持续强劲，很快还会再拓展更多地区。

Then ultimately now in the six states, Soon to be several more as the growth trajectory continues to be pretty high.

我们的组织高度聚焦临床服务，大部分员工都是中心内的行为治疗师和认证行为分析师，主要为自闭症儿童及其家庭提供支持。

We are very clinically focused in terms of most of our organization is comprised of in center staff from behavior therapists to board certified behavior analysts, really in support of both the children that we serve with ASD as well as their families.

我们真正想解决的复杂问题，首先是让有需要的家庭能获得及时的干预服务——很多时候，家长只是注意到孩子有早期迹象，跟儿科医生沟通后却不确定孩子是否真的患有自闭症。

The complexity of what we're really trying to do is obviously create access to care, but a lot of that means helping families in some cases get a diagnosis where they may be seeing early signs and symptoms, talking to their pediatrician, talking to their physician but not sure if in fact their child does have autism.

我们会协助完成诊断流程，如果确诊后需要帮助，我们也能第一时间提供支持。

We will help support the diagnostic process, as well as obviously, hopefully, if they do need help, we can be of service to them.

如果实在无法提供服务，我们也会推荐其他类型的治疗师，比如物理治疗、作业治疗或言语治疗方面的资源。

And if we can't, provide them with recommendations on other therapists, if it might be a PTOTST type dynamic.

我们的服务主要基于保险报销。

We are insurance based.

在筛选潜在客户时，我们特别关注家庭所持有的保险类型，包括各州提供的医疗补助，以及孩子的诊断结果。

One of our criteria in terms of helping to qualify leads is really understanding the insurance provider that the family may have or Medicaid in states where we offer it, as well as that diagnosis.

当然，年龄也是一个限制条件。

Then obviously there's a constraint on the age as well.

我们需要在营销模型中建立一套严谨的机制，来评估和筛选线索的质量，这一点我们后面会详细讨论。

There's some rigor that we have to put into the marketing model to help us understand, and we'll talk a lot more about, the lead quality and qualifications.

作为一家公司，我们的信条就是：在做好事业的同时，也要做对社会有益的事。

But as an organization, it's the mantra of doing well by doing good.

作为一名首席营销官，加入这样一家快速成长、帮助无数家庭和成千上万孩子的公司，看到孩子们达成他们渴望的每一个重要里程碑，甚至顺利融入普通教育体系，真的非常有成就感。

And as a CMO joining a company that scaling quickly and helping so many families and thousands of kids and helping them reach those milestone moments that all those families want to see them achieve and hopefully help them graduate in a general education type dynamic is really rewarding.

我早期和ABC团队接触时就发现，你们有一个非常出色的呼叫中心，一群出色的顾问在帮助家庭应对各种问题，经常有人主动打电话来咨询。

One of the things I learned very early on interacting with the ABC team was you've got this amazing call center, all these great consultants helping families work through this and you get people calling in.

有时候，你们是他们接触的第一站，就像你说的，帮他们确认那些症状是不是真的，指导他们在家做自测。

Sometimes you're their first touch point just like you said, questioning whether the signs and symptoms are accurate and helping them navigate that, helping them navigate some of the self testing that they can do at home.

我记得你们之前提到过，不管对方最终有没有成为ABC的客户或患者，每次电话结束时，你们都会明确告诉他们下一步该做什么。

And I think I heard you guys say at one point, everyone leaves the phone call whether they become a customer of ABCs, a client, a patient of ABCs or not with what the next step is that they should take.

这其中也包括把他们转介到合适的地方。

And that involves a lot of referring out to the right places as well.

所以，真正为家庭着想，这些故事就成了最打动人心的案例，让你觉得做家庭营销、把他们引入这个组织，是件特别有意义的事。

So think that doing good by families, those become the really great stories that make you feel good about marketing to families and getting them into the organization.

那我们接下来就深入聊聊这个。

So let's dive into that.

咱们再花点时间，简单梳理一下接下来的讨论重点，方便所有听众把握方向，毕竟这些内容之后都会发出去。

Let's spend a bit more time, really just high level of the discussion ahead for everybody listening in and all this content gets sent out afterwards.

有个大致的议程会更有条理。

So it's good to have a little agenda.

关于规模化挑战，这是我们过去一年一直在谈的，就是怎么把营销引擎做大。

The scaling challenge, that's what we talked about the last twelve months, really growing that marketing engine.

你提到过，马特，你负责数据和衡量工作。

You mentioned, Matt, that you own measurement and data.

今天上午的首席营销官圆桌会上，很多团队都谈到，把这部分整合进营销后，简直是颠覆性的改变。

In our CMO panel this morning, we heard a lot of groups talk about how integrating that into marketing has been a game changer.

所以，衡量数据是真正扩大基础的关键所在。

So the measurement is one of the most important things to really scaling the foundation.

那接下来，你该怎么实际运用这些数据，推动行动呢？

How do you then actually act on that, activate and act on it?

我还想听听你和里奇对2026年工作重点的看法。

And then would love to get a little bit of insight from both you and Rich on priorities for 2026.

这就是我们接下来要聊的内容。

So that's the agenda ahead.

那咱们就直接切入正题吧。

Let's go ahead and dive into it.

马特，我想多了解一下你这边的实际情况。

Matt, I want to get a little bit into your your reality.

你背后有私募股权公司支持。

You've got a private equity sponsor.

你迫切希望快速增长，同时必须证明每一分钱都花得值。

You've got this desire to grow fast and this need to prove that every dollar spent is well spent.

你今年初加入Action Behavior时，作为新任CMO，当时设定了哪些目标？

Talk us through when you joined Action Behavior earlier in 2025, what were some of the goals you had as the new CMO?

在那个新职位上，高管团队对你有哪些期望？

Then what were some of the expectations of the C suite of you in that new role?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我之前提到，ABC是八年前成立的。

So I mentioned ABC started about eight years ago.

但为了让大家更清楚，我今年年初加入时，其实是ABC公司历史上第一位CMO。

But just for context, terms of what I was stepping into, when I joined earlier this year, I was actually the first CMO for ABC for the company.

正如我提到的，这家公司已经迅速扩张了。

The company, as I mentioned, has already really been scaling quickly.

在ABA领域，它算是规模最大的玩家之一，尤其是在网点数量上。

One of the larger players in the ABA space just in terms of footprint and new centers.

对任何市场总监来说，接手这样一个已经高速增长的公司，都是个绝佳的机会。

Again, great position for any CMO to be coming into where there's already high growth.

但另一方面，我们在营销效果衡量方面却缺乏一致性。

But on the flip side, what we were lacking was really consistency in marketing measurement.

正如里奇会证实的，我们当时根本缺乏可靠的归因体系，没法真正看清广告投入的效果。

And as Rich will attest to, accurate or really the presence of attribution, to be able to really understand our ad spend performance.

所以简单来说，大家对我的期望就是快速提升潜在客户数量，跟上新网点的扩张节奏。

So I think, simply put, the expectation was obviously come in fast lead growth to help keep pace with the new center expansion.

但同时，大家也强调，增长必须有财务 accountability——每个营销预算都要有数据支撑，要能证明它带来了实际回报，这和CFO、CEO以及私募股权方的期待是一致的。

But there was also the notion of we need growth with financial accountability, which obviously every CMO knows working with their CFO, working with their CEO and private equity sponsors for that tension of the accountability against every dollar spent being measured and delivering against the objective.

所以对我来说，最主要的目标，说实话，就是提升潜在客户生成。

So for me, really, my main goal, I would say, yes, it was grow lead generation.

但同时也要让市场部门更加专业化，引入更多数据驱动的思维，来更好地评估我们的营销效果。

But it was also to really professionalize the marketing function and really bring more of a data driven mindset to help understand our marketing performance.

当然，这一切都离不开与Cardinal的合作。

Obviously partnering with Cardinal to help do all of the above.

我们知道一直在谈高效扩张，待会儿还会聊到测试与学习。

And I know we talk about efficient scale and we're going to talk about test and learn.

马特，你和我经常讨论测试与学习这个概念。

Matt, you and I, we talk about test and learn.

我觉得这种学习方式不是浪费预算，而是要花钱去学，而且得学得值。

I think this the don't waste budget learning, but that doesn't mean don't spend money learning.

从你的角度看，简单说说你怎么看这个事，之后我们再深入聊，毕竟这对我们扩张至关重要。

Give us the short sentiment on that from your perspective and then we'll obviously spend more time because it's an important part of how we scale.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得要在增长和投资回报之间找平衡，关键在于通过透明来建立信任。

I mean, I think in terms of trying to balance that growth against ROI and testing, I mean, for me, it really comes down to you wanna build trust through transparency.

每一分钱都该有明确的目的，还得有清晰的考核指标。

Well, yes, every dollar should have an intention and you need to have defined KPIs.

归根结底，我们要达成一致，搞清楚什么才算成功，什么算是失败。

Ultimately, at the end of day, it's trying to align on what success and failure looks like in terms of what we're planning to do.

我刚来的时候，并没有承诺立马做到完美表现。

So when I joined, I didn't come in and promise perfect performance.

我只承诺了一点：让一切透明可见。

I really just promised visibility.

我觉得，一旦公司高层和高管团队信任了这个流程，我们就有了足够的空间去成长、扩张和尝试。

And I think, ultimately, once our leadership and our c suite trusted that process, that really gave us the room to grow, to scale, and to test.

对。

Yeah.

就像你说的，透明和信任是前提，跨过这道坎之后，大家就能专心做好自己最擅长的事。

I think, like you said, the transparency and the trust, and then you you get over that hurdle, and then there's really that inherent you do what you do best.

我相信你能做好。

I trust you to do it.

我觉得这非常好。

So I think that's that's great.

再稍微聊聊怎么赢得支持吧，毕竟我们正朝这个方向走。

Again, just a little bit more on earning that buy in since we're heading that direction.

但说到风险和机会，接下来我们会和里奇讨论渠道拓展的问题。

But when you think about risk versus opportunity, we're going to talk about channel expansion here with Rich.

我觉得这才是‘试错学习’真正发挥作用的地方，比如申请更多预算，或者被分配了更多预算后，得拿出一份详细的计划，说明你打算怎么用、预期能带来什么回报，毕竟有那么多不确定因素。

Think that's really where test and learn comes, as well as things like asking for more budget or being given more budget and having to then spit back out a plan on what you plan to do with that and what you think it's gonna yield with so many unknown variables.

谈到透明度、学习曲线和设定现实的预期，你对此有什么看法？

When you talk about that transparency, the learning curve, setting realistic expectations, what's your philosophy on that?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得大多数首席营销官都会走这么一个流程。

I think there's a process that most CMOs would take.

对我和我的团队来说，关键是先搞清楚我们在哪些现有数字营销渠道上已经用到了极限，对我们而言，主要就是付费搜索。

For me and for my team, it was really trying to understand where we were already maxed out on our existing digital marketing channels, which for us was really mostly paid search.

然后我和里奇团队合作，去评估如果我们拓展到其他渠道，能带来多少额外的流量增长。

Then partnering with Rich and team on trying to determine what incremental volume was even possible if we were to expand our investment into other channels.

为了获得高管层和财资团队的支持，我们必须提前明确定义成功标准，统一衡量指标，说清楚什么是好的表现、什么是差的表现，而且任何有效的测试或拓展计划，都得有明确的退出机制——如果效果不达标，什么时候该叫停，就算失败。

Then to gain that support from our C suite and from our CFO, our finance team, really had to define success upfront, align on what we were measuring, what was good and bad performance, and that any good test or any good expansion effort includes criteria on, Hey, if this isn't working, this is when we would pull the plug and call it a failed test.

说到这点，确实得提前管理好预期。

To that point, you have to set expectations.

这些测试不可能一夜见效，渠道拓展也未必马上就有回报。

These tests don't happen overnight, nor does a channel expansion work maybe immediately.

为了确保评估公平、条件一致，我们通常会预留六十到九十天的学习适应期。

To really create a fair read and level playing field, we would build in effectively a sixty to ninety day learning curve.

很多新进入的平台，尤其是全新的渠道，都需要时间去优化，让平台自己学习什么样的转化才算成功。

A lot of platforms, especially when you're entering net new, you need to optimize the platform and let the platform learn against what conversion and what good looks like.

让每个线索的成本慢慢稳定下来。

Let that cost per lead stabilize.

最后，等大家就衡量标准、测试内容，以及投入与潜在回报之间的关系达成一致后。

And then finally, once you've gained alignment on what you're measuring, what you're testing, where the opportunity was against the investment being asked for.

关键还是沟通，得让内部相关方——不管是财务团队、运营人员，还是各业务中心——都清楚我们在测试什么、为什么这么测，以及结果和从中获得的洞察。

And it really came down to communication and making sure that our internal stakeholders, whether it was the finance team or operators or even our centers, understood what we're testing and why and the results and any insights.

我们会认真汇报哪些渠道表现不错，这算是通过了。

We would report out pretty diligently on channels that were working, and that was a thumbs up.

但同时我们也会坦诚告诉他们：‘这次起步比较慢，结果没达到预期。’

But we're also open to telling them, Hey, we're seeing a slower start, this didn't work maybe as we planned to.

我觉得这种做法特别有效：既保持透明和及时沟通，又始终围绕‘什么算成功’和‘什么算失败’的标准，这样大家才会相信，针对所要求的投资，风险是能得到妥善管理的。

I think that approach in terms of being able to be really transparent and communicative, but also aligned to what good looks like and what failure looks like too, really helps create confidence that sort of the risk against the investment being asked for is gonna be appropriately managed.

你觉得是否存在一种中间状态？测试不一定非得成功或失败，而是可以逐步迭代的吗？

Do you think there's this middle ground in which a test doesn't always succeed or fail, but it's iterative?

当情况不够明确时，你们会怎么处理？

What is your approach when it's not so clear cut?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这时候就得靠数据说话。

I think that's where you're relying on data.

有时候就是这种模糊地带，让人头疼，毕竟算不上明显的成功。

And sometimes it is that gray area that dreaded, like, it's not a clear win.

这也不是一个

It's not a

不想直接放弃，但我也不觉得

Don't wanna write it off completely, but I'm not

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以说。

So yeah.

所以我觉得关键还是要对照之前设定的成功标准，看看有没有足够的依据再给它一些时间和耐心？

So I think that's really then understanding against the success criteria that you outlined to say, is there enough gear to give it more time and to be patient?

如果有，那就继续测试。

And if yes, let's continue to test.

当早期迹象显示事情可能不会如你预期那样发展时，这反而会让你更有底气提前做出调整。

Where early indicators suggest maybe this isn't going to work the way you're expecting, then that gives you maybe more confidence to preempt it.

对我来说，判断成功还是失败，关键不在于是否获得批准继续做下去或继续花钱，而在于大家是否达成共识。

For me, about whether it's success or failure, the key I think is really just gaining alignment, not necessarily approval to keep doing something or keep spending money.

如果大家能认同你努力争取的方向，那他们就更愿意给你时间去测试和学习——这正是大多数营销人渴望的从容空间。

I think if people are aligned against what you're trying to earn your way into, then there is more patience to take that test and learn approach that most marketers want to have the luxury to have.

对。

Yeah.

马特，咱们稍微跑题一下，虽然还是相关话题，但不在原定计划里。

And Matt, just a little bit off topic here on topic, but off script.

我经常被人问到这个问题。

I get asked this all the time.

你有没有什么建议，告诉听众们该把多少预算留出来给测试和学习？

Do you have any advice for people listening in on how much of your budget do you set aside for test and learn?

你觉得有没有一个底线可以参考？比如，如果他们现在把测试和学习的预算设为0%，该从哪里开始调整？

Do you think there's a guardrail there that they could start leaning into if say and learn is 0% of their budget today?

是的。

Yeah.

在很多情况下，尤其是在医疗行业，能有个测试和学习的预算简直是一种奢侈。

I think in a lot of cases, especially healthcare, it's a luxury to have a test and learn budget.

我觉得这更像是一种需要 marketers 在团队里主动建立的纪律——要成为持续测试与学习的倡导者。

I think it's a discipline that most marketers need to instill in their organization, really be that champion of constantly testing and learning.

如果你现在是零，那就从小做起。

Start small if you're at 0%.

尽量争取把预算的5%划出来，如果可能的话。

Try to get 5% of your budget, if possible.

我知道预算都很紧，有时候连这点钱都觉得不少。

I understand budgets are very tight, sometimes even that can feel like a lot.

但如果你不测试，就学不到东西，还指望老办法能持续产出同样的效果，作为 marketers，我们都清楚，这根本不太现实。

But if you're not testing, you're not learning, and you're expecting then the same result to continue to deliver the same results, which as marketers, marketers, we all know, is not necessarily gonna be the case.

所以我觉得，不管你现在在哪，先从小步开始，慢慢扩大。

So I think just wherever you are, start small and grow over time.

希望你能达成这种共识，不一定要得到正式批准。

Hopefully you gain, again, that alignment, not necessarily the approval.

如果你的高管团队、合作伙伴，或者任何负责审批测试与学习预算的人，能理解其中的价值，他们就会更愿意给你机会，逐步扩大这项投入。

If your C suite and your partners, your private equity sponsors, whoever's making the final call in discretionary test to learn hard deep budgets, understand the value, then they're gonna be more keen on giving you the opportunity to build that and grow that investment over time.

对。

Yeah.

当你明确说这个预算是独立的，用途也跟其他预算不一样时，会更容易让人接受。

It's helpful when you say this budget is separate from this budget, and it's intended to do something different.

想从总预算里划出一部分来用，却又希望它能跟其他预算做同样的事，这就很难了。

It's hard when you want to carve out some budget, but see if it can do the same thing as the rest of the budget.

这正是为什么我们要尽早淘汰无效项目。

That's where kill it early often comes from.

不幸的是，最后你陷入年复一年的循环，只依赖那些效果正在下滑的渠道。

And, unfortunately, you end up in a year over year situation where you're just relying on the same channels that our performance is degrading.

我们一会儿跟里奇聊聊这个话题。

We'll get into that with Rich here in a minute.

我们来聊聊测量框架吧。

Let's talk a little bit about the measurement framework.

这可是个关键部分。

This was a huge part.

它还在不断改进中。

It's still evolving.

我知道你们一直在做这方面的工作。

I know you guys are always working on this.

我知道今年你和艾米为这个投入了大量精力。

I know you put a lot of work for you and Amy into this throughout this year.

里奇，我想请你简单谈谈你的看法，之后我们再听听其他人的意见。

And Rich, I'll ask you actually just for a quick fresh perspective, and then we'll get perspective.

在我们和马特及其团队合作之初，你觉得在测量方面，哪些关键缺口最需要填补，才能让我们有信心争取更多预算，知道怎么用好这笔钱，并确保预算产生效果？

What do you think as we entered this partnership with Matt and his team were some of the most critical measurement gaps that needed to be filled in order to then say we have the confidence to get more budget, to know what to do with that budget, and for that budget to perform?

我不希望一提到‘归因’这个词，就让马特条件反射似的反应。

I don't want to instill a Pavlovian response in Matt when I say the word attribution.

但我觉得就像

But I think just like

健康的讨论。

healthy debate.

对。

Yeah.

不是的。

No.

而且我觉得我们为此讨论了整整好几周。

And I I think it was a discussion that that we talked about for many weeks.

当你谈到测试时，坚持多久才合适，这挺有意思的。

It's interesting when you talk about testing and how long do you persevere with something.

在测量方面也是同样的道理。

It's the same thing on the measurement side.

我们曾经在归因问题上碰了不少壁，后来终于充分利用了现有的技术。

Think we banged our heads against the wall with attribution for a while and then finally managed to leverage the tech that we had in place.

ABC已经整合了CRM系统，这太棒了。

ABC is CRM enabled, which is fantastic.

这让我们在向平台回传数据和获取详细报告方面，明显优于那些没用CRM的其他医疗客户。

That definitely gives us a leg up over other health care clients that are not CRM enabled in terms of passing back information to platforms and getting really detailed reporting.

但关于归因问题，确实存在一些模糊之处。

But there was definitely some ambiguity around attribution.

所以我们最要紧的事，就是搞清楚各个现有渠道到底带来了什么效果。

So the number one thing for us to do was to figure out what exactly what the existing channels were driving.

同时，我们希望在解决归因问题的过程中，也能探索是否能以符合HIPAA合规的方式，把CRM或其他系统的数据回传给广告平台，从而提升广告投放的精准度。

And then hopefully, whilst also figuring out the attribution issue, determine could we pass back signals from the CRM or other places in a HIPAA compliant way back into the ad platforms to make them more effective from a campaign management point of view.

一开始，核心问题就是归因。

So initially, was attribution.

从我们这边看，另一个关键点是，我们当时有种直觉，加上一些粗略的表格计算，觉得一开始对某些渠道的依赖过度了。

I think the other big piece from our end is we had a anecdotal feeling and some back of the spreadsheet math that we were overleveraging certain channels at the beginning of the at the outset of the relationship.

当然，我们之前已经提过了，整个演示的主题就是规模化。

Obviously, we've already been talking about it, the whole topic of this this presentation is about scale.

所以，如果你一开始用的主力渠道已经出现回报递减，对我们来说，另一个关键问题是：我们到底达到了多高的饱和度？

So if you're starting with a core channel that is already hitting diminishing returns, the other big piece for us was understanding, like, how much saturation were we hitting?

我们到底遭遇了多少回报递减？

How much diminishing return were we hitting?

接下来，我们需要往哪些方向拓展，才能缓解现有渠道的压力，同时实现渠道多元化，更高效地获取更多线索。

And then where would we need to go in order to offset some of that pressure on those existing channels and diversify to drive more leads whilst maintaining efficiency.

马特加入后，我们另一个重点是开始讨论：哪些做法值得借鉴？该怎么搭建起来？至少要从渠道角度搞清楚，下一美元该投在哪里，以及我们在不同推广手段上的资源分配是否合理，来支撑当时的核心目标——高质量线索的生成。

Another big piece for us, once Matt came on board, was to start the discussion around what could teach us, how do we stand it up, and at least get a good sense from a channel standpoint or a channel viewpoint where the next dollar needed to go and how well we were funded across these different tactics in terms of driving the ultimate goal at the time, which was this qualified lead metric.

是的。

Yeah.

马特，你加入的时候，CRM系统已经上线了，这真是个很大的进步，至少系统是有的，不用我们从头搭建。

And, Matt, you joined the organization, CRM's in place, which is like a great step, probably a breath of fresh air, at least it exists.

你确实花了不少功夫在CRM上，仔细梳理了各个线索阶段、资格审核环节，还有归因问题。

I don't have to deploy it myself, but you did do quite a bit of work in CRM to really look at the various lead stages, qualification stages, as well as attribution.

你是怎么决定优先处理哪些事，哪些可以往后放，哪些必须紧跟着跟进的？

How did you prioritize what to focus on first versus what could wait or what needed to come second?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得按照里奇的说法，我刚到ABC的第二天就开始讨论归因问题，很快就意识到我们存在不少漏洞需要填补。

I think to Rich's point, I think we started talking about attribution on my second day at ABC and quickly was made aware of some of the gaps that we needed to close.

我想说的是，我知道要把所有的数据追踪体系搭建起来绝对不是一朝一夕的事，必须得按阶段来推进，就像里奇说的那样。

I guess what I would say is we knew, I knew, that getting all the measurement pieces in place was absolutely gonna take time and that it had to be a stage approach to what Rich was talking to.

我觉得最紧迫的是，我们连最基础的东西都没搞清楚——比如到底哪些渠道带来了线索，更别说下一步去分析线索在漏斗中的转化情况，以及最终判断线索质量了。

Where I felt the most need was this, we just didn't even understand what I would consider foundational, understanding lead sources against the next ability to understand our pull through in the lead funnel, which would be a tease out to understanding lead quality.

对我来说，这绝对是当务之急，而正如你所说，我们是通过CRM平台来实现的：优化了落地页，清理了回传到Salesforce的数据，确保能准确知道这些线索到底从哪儿来。

For And me, that was the immediate priority, which to your point did come through using our CRM platform, cleaning up some of our landing pages and some of the data that was feeding back into Salesforce for us, creating that accuracy against understanding just where are these leads coming from.

随着时间推移，就像里奇提到的，我们会把转化信号反馈回广告平台，用来优化投放。

Over time, to Rich's point, feeding the conversion signals back into the media platforms for optimization.

但归根结底，当时我们完全是盲飞。

But ultimately, the immediate priority was we were flying blind.

我们得先搞清楚哪些线索能推动到下一阶段——对我们来说，就是促成预约看房。

We needed to understand what leads delivered the next stage, which for us would be getting to a tour.

我们知道有些事情可以往后放一放，比如媒体组合建模和增量分析，因为基础还没打牢。

We knew some of the things we wanted to do, which we'll get into around media mix modeling and incrementality, could wait because we just didn't have the foundation built.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这正好是个很好的过渡。

And I think that's a great transition.

你们刚成为新搭档的时候，马特，你才刚来第二天，我们就已经在聊归因问题了。

When you guys were net new partners working together, Matt, you had just started day two, we're talking attribution.

同时我们也在讨论，到底哪些业务关键指标才是真正重要的。

And then we're also talking, what are the business KPIs that really matter?

因为这些指标本身也随着时间不断变化。

Because that has evolved over time as well.

今天早上在和一些大公司CMO的开场对谈中，有人开玩笑说，那些表面光鲜的指标都别看了，咱们得盯住真正的业务关键指标。

Jokingly this morning on our opening panel with the CMOs of some of the big organizations that we had on there said throughout the vanity metrics, we really need to focus on the business KPIs.

我们说把这些指标全扔了的时候，大家还都在笑，但确实，对很多公司来说，第一步都是先搞定线索获取，把单个线索成本控制住。

And everyone was joking when we said throw them out, but this evolution of, hey, let's get to a lead, a cost per lead, that was stage one for many organizations.

现在关键在于，这些线索后续怎么样了？

And now it's really what happens to those leads?

我怎么判断它们是不是合格的？

How do I know if they're qualified?

我又该怎么确保它们能转化成我需要的下一个阶段？

And how do I ensure that they're turning into the next thing that I need them to turn into?

马特，你能给我们讲讲，实现这个目标在技术上花了多大功夫，以及它对后续规模化产生了什么影响吗？

Matt, if you talk us through a little bit of the technical lift of getting that done as well as the impact that has had on then scaling like we talked about.

是的。

Yeah.

简而言之，技术上的投入非常大，而且到现在还在持续。

The short version was a pretty heavy lift from a technical Still ongoing.

对。

Yeah.

正如你一开始说的，这可能永远都做不完，但绝对值得。

And it's still ongoing, as you mentioned at the outset, probably never to be finished, but absolutely worth it.

我们花了很多时间，真正搞清楚了多个平台之间的复杂性。

I would say we had spent a lot of time just really understanding the complexity of the multiple platforms.

我觉得很多市场人员都面临同样的情况：数据从CRM平台传到线索管理平台，再流入广告投放平台。

And I think a lot of marketers are in the same situation where you've got data getting passed from a CRM platform to a lead management platform, and then into media platforms.

我们重点设计了这个流程，明确第一阶段的目标是什么——那就是识别线索来源。

Really helping to architect what that looked like in terms of knowing what we wanted to get out of that first stage, is that lead source identification.

我们从一开始就清楚，而且我和里奇，还有Cardinal团队很快就达成共识：不是所有线索都一样。

Really just understanding that we knew going in and we aligned, Rich and I, and the Cardinal team aligned pretty quickly that not all leads are equal.

我们当时有个假设，某些线索来源和渠道带来的后续转化率会更高。

And we knew some lead sources or we had a hypothesis that some lead sources and channels would drive higher downstream conversion.

为了能对预算投放做出实际的调整，

For us to be able to get to anything that we could action against in terms of spend

或者

or

目标设定——就像今天上午聊到的那样——我们得摆脱只看线索数量的初始思路，转而追踪线索从数量，到筛选淘汰率，到合格线索成本，到获客成本，再到最终转化的全过程。

targets, echoing some of the earlier conversation from this morning, became moving off of just lead volume, which was really the initial mandate to understanding, hey, how can we understand lead volume as it chases through to disqualification rate, to cost per qualified lead, to cost of acquisition, to conversion?

对我们来说，从技术层面或内部运作来看，最大的挑战其实是变革管理以及内部资源的限制。

For us, the biggest hurdles in that from a technical standpoint or really even an internal standpoint was really change management and then internal bandwidth.

今天早上大家都谈到了市场和运营，我们的情况也是一样。

I think with change management, everyone talked about marketing and ops this morning, and for us it's the same dynamic.

我们和各部门紧密合作，但每个人对事物的定义都不太一样。在和IT团队推进技术调整的同时，我们还得培训负责线索管理的团队，这一点比我想的花的时间更长，因为我们要改变的东西确实很复杂。

We partnered really closely, but everyone defines things a little differently and making sure that as we're working through the technical changes with our IT team, we knew we had to train our teams managing the leads, and that probably took a little longer than I might have expected just because of the fact that it was pretty intensive in terms of what we were trying to change.

但与此同时，这一步至关重要，只有这样才能确保大家步调一致，让这些改变真正落地。

But at the same time, it was definitely an important step to ensure that we had the alignment and that those changes were going to be successful.

否则，你就算建立了归因模型，也没人按规则去执行，甚至不知道该怎么用这些数据。

Otherwise, you create the attribution, but no one's following the guidelines against how we're gonna actuate against that or even what we're gonna do with that.

像我们这样快速成长的小公司，IT部门总是忙于各种项目，排期特别紧张。

And then any small business that's growing really fast like ours, there's always project demands on IT and making sure that we get queued up.

我想给在听的各位一个建议：在规划阶段就把IT团队拉进来，尽早、频繁地沟通。

For me, my advice to anyone listening is bring your IT department along in the planning process, communicate early and often.

他们清楚我们2025年想达成的全部目标，哪怕我们知道，受限于他们的资源和内部变革的接受度，这些调整必须分阶段来推进。

They knew our full scope of what we wanted to get accomplished in '25, even if we knew based on their bandwidth and sort of the appetite for the internal change management had to happen in stages.

但通过不断沟通，明确我们想要达成的目标，我们成功把整个项目拆成了几个小阶段，这样能更快看到成效。

But by communicating and signaling to them where we wanted to go, we were able to actually break it up into smaller projects that ultimately could get us faster results in terms of where we wanted to get to.

对。

Yeah.

让对方真正参与进来，把这件事当成他们自己的项目一样去推动。

Bring them along for the ride, make it their project as much as it is your project.

我觉得这就是市场与运营之间的对齐。

I think that's the mops alignment.

这些年，我们的客户在和合规团队合作时，也一直需要这种对齐。

That's the alignment that our clients have had to have with their compliance teams over the years.

这次和IT团队的合作，同样如此。

And I think in this enablement project with the IT team as well.

马特，你们在Salesforce里做了大量出色的工作，把这套体系搭建起来了。

Matt, you guys did all this really great work to put this in place within Salesforce.

里奇，我们当初和Action Behavior合作，最初的目标很简单，就是把合格线索数量作为核心指标和衡量平台。

Rich, we started this partnership with Action Behavior, just trying to get qualified leads as the metric and platform.

现在我们正在努力进一步优化，确保它持续契合业务的实际目标。

And then now we're really working to evolve that to continue to align with what the business outcomes need to be.

能跟我们聊聊，为什么算法使用的指标必须和业务团队保持一致吗？

Just talk to us a little bit about the importance of the algorithms working with the same metrics that the business is working with.

是的。

Yeah.

这些算法，我们最近在Meta的Andromeda更新中就看到了明显变化。

These algorithms, we see it now with the recent update with Andromeda on Meta.

本质上，精准定向正在变得越来越难。

Essentially, targeting is becoming diminished.

AI Max搜索也是一个明显的趋势——这些平台现在只希望你给出一个明确目标。

AI Max search is another obvious shift as well in in terms of these platforms just they wanna be given an objective.

它们只需要你告诉它们：去完成这个转化。

They wanna be given a conversion to go and get.

然后它们就会自己去想办法达成这个目标。

And then they're essentially saying, I will go and get that.

你会提供落地页和广告素材这些输入，但大部分情况下，我们的算法会自己去找到方法，在你愿意支付的获客成本范围内，为你争取尽可能多的转化。

And you give us some inputs like the landing page and the creative, but by and large, our algorithm is gonna go and figure out how to get you as many of those things as you need or as much of those things as you can get for the acquisition cost that you're willing to pay.

所以你喂给算法的数据至关重要，而且比以往任何时候都更重要。

So what you feed that algorithm is incredibly important, and it has never been more important.

如果我们无法把真正与推动业务的KPI挂钩的反馈信号传回去，那我们报告的营销表现和业务实际看到的利润增长之间，往往就会出现脱节。

So if we're not able to send back signals that actually correlate with the KPIs that grow the business, there's oftentimes a mismatch in terms of what we're reporting out as up into the right marketing performance and what the business is seeing as true growth to the bottom line.

幸运的是，在我们这个合作中，至少我们一直都在讨论CRM里发生的具体行为。

It's been nice that at least in this relationship, we've at least always been talking about activities that happen in the CRM.

我们始终有一些反馈，哪怕没直接喂给算法——比如做Meta广告时，如果拒访率突然上升，可能是用户保险不符合要求，或者年龄不对，这些我们都能据此优化广告素材或定向策略。

We've always had some kind of feedback, in even if it's not being pushed in and feeding the algorithm in terms of we'll understand if we run a Meta campaign, if the disqualification rate jumps up, if maybe people don't have the right insurance or if people are the wrong age, for instance, there's then things that we can go and fix in the creative or go fix in the targeting.

这当然不错，但Meta和Google并不知道这些细节。

That's nice, but Meta does not know that or Google does not know that.

关键是要把这些更深层的信号推送给平台，让Google也了解清楚，这样在每次竞价、每次决定向哪个用户展示广告时，算法才能判断这个人是不是目标用户。

That final step is making sure that we're pushing those deeper signals in so that Google also knows that so that algorithmically in every auction or when we're looking at a user that we're trying to essentially get our ad in front of, is that the right user?

但很遗憾，我们正在失去对这一环节的掌控。

Unfortunately, again, we're losing control there.

算法现在掌握着更大的主导权。

The algorithm has much more control.

因此，给算法提供和我们自己用的一样的信息，变得至关重要。

So giving it the same information to use that we're using is becoming crucial.

所有做医疗营销的同行，现在可能正皱着眉头想：那HIPAA怎么办？

For all the healthcare marketers out there, you're probably scratching your head and thinking, well, what about HIPAA?

这其实是另一个关键点：我们得尽可能多地提供信息，以提升效果，但同时也要留意HIPAA带来的限制和挑战。

That's the other piece of this puzzle, is again trying to give as much information as we can to be as effective as we can, but to be mindful of HIPAA and some of the challenges there.

我们和医疗客户合作时，很大一部分工作就是帮他们和平台之间协调信息共享，确保方式符合他们的合规要求，或者匹配他们愿意承担的营销风险。

That's a large part of what we do with healthcare clients, is to work with them on sharing information with platforms and but doing so in a way that they deem to be compliant or that matches the risk that they're willing to take in terms of driving the marketing machine.

这一点我怎么强调都不为过。

I cannot underline this point enough.

如今我们最核心的优化之一，就是确保把那些高质量的反馈信号传回平台。

It's one of the most crucial optimizations that we do these days is making sure that we're sending these qualified signals back to the platform.

我们刚收到一个问题，我觉得特别相关，咱们就多留一分钟。

We got a question that popped up that I think is really relevant, so we'll stay here for just a minute.

马特，我们有合格的潜在客户，但他们还得预约参观。

Matt, we've got qualified leads that then have to book tours.

他们得按时来参加参观。

They gotta show up for those tours.

之后还要完成评估，最终做出决定，真正开始和你们的合作。

They've gotta complete an assessment and ultimately choose action behavior and and start their journey with you.

从合格潜在客户进来，到患者真正开始服务，中间大概要多久？哪怕你只是随便说说也好。

The time between the qualified lead coming in and the patient start, how long is that if you're willing to share even just anecdotally?

这个时间长短会不会影响我们对这些后续结果的优化？

And does that affect the ability to optimize towards some of these downstream outcomes?

是的。

Yeah.

简短的回答是，每个家庭的情况都不一样。

The short answer is it's going be different for each family.

平均来看，整个流程会比较长，因为你刚才提到的那些步骤，劳伦——有时候还得先确诊，甚至在预约参观之前，然后还要做评估、核实保险之类的。

On average, it is a longer journey just due to the steps that you outlined, Lauren, in terms of sometimes diagnosis, even before a TOR, and then the assessment, insurance verification, etcetera.

对我们来说，这确实给判断质量信号带来了一些困难。

For us, it does create some challenges in terms of understanding the quality signals.

我们最近开始更长时间地追踪合格线索，确保他们不只是刚进来时合格，还能在三五天甚至七天后依然保持合格状态。

Some of what we've put in place more recently is starting to look at qualified leads over a longer period of time to make sure that not just coming in, they stay qualified over three, five, seven days longer.

我们还会关注一些更前瞻性的指标。

We also look at what I'd call more leading indicators.

这就涉及到我们从追求数量转向注重质量的调整，特别是对预约转化率的分析。

This gets into some of the pivots we made against lead volume versus lead quality and understanding the conversion rate to tours.

对我们而言，预约是转化过程中最直接的一步。

That's the most immediate journey step for us in terms of looking at a conversion.

如果非要等到新患者真正开始服务才做反馈，信号就太滞后了，很难及时调整。

Waiting all the way to that new patient start would create some challenges from a signal standpoint to be able to feed that back.

预约行为的发生时间更早，有时甚至在同一个月内就能完成。

TORs are a more immediate type activity that can happen sometimes as early as within the same month.

关键还是得搞清楚自己的线索流向，以及哪些转化信号最有参考价值。

A lot of it is just understanding your own lead flow and understanding what are the conversion signals that make the most sense.

显而易见，越往漏斗下游走，效果越好。

Obviously, the farther you can go down the funnel, the better.

我们稍后会谈到，最终目标是把投资回报和收入挂钩，考虑以收入为导向的出价策略。

We'll talk, I think, a little later about ultimately trying to get to ROI against revenue and thinking about TROIs and revenue based bidding.

但你得有一些信号，像矿井里的金丝雀一样，告诉你这套方法还管不管用。

But you have to have some signals that give you that canary in the coal mine of, Is this still working or not?

对我们来说，关键就是预约参观。如果能引导潜在客户来参观，并且他们保持合格、成功预约，这就说明这个客户质量不错，后续转化的可能性也很大。

For us, that's really tours and understanding if we can get a lead to a tour, if they stay qualified and then schedule a tour, that's a pretty good indicator that the lead is qualified and that they have a decent chance of progressing from there.

如果等太久，比如等到新患者真正开始治疗，中间会冒出更多问题，我们还在想办法怎么把整个流程追踪到底。

Waiting longer would create some more challenges that we're still working through in terms of how we chase it all the way down to a new patient start.

对。

Yeah.

这样等下去，前端的反应可能会太慢了。

You might create a bit too much of a delay to actually impact at the front end.

刚才那个问题其实你已经回答了，马特。

I think the question popped up and you just answered it, Matt.

不过为了把这个问题说透，你从客户关系管理系统里都回传了哪些具体数据？

But just to explicitly answer it, what exactly are you passing back from CRM?

就是那些转化阶段对吧，能收集到的阶段数据都会传，但你刚才也提到了，已预约的参观就是其中一项。

These are the stages, as many of the stages as you can, but I think you just said it that that tours booked.

所以我们现在核心优化的指标就是合格线索到参观预约的转化率，这个指标和我们最终需要的结果关联性很强，而且它处于转化流程的早期阶段，我们能及时捕捉到数据，立刻采取调整行动。

So the qualified lead to tour booked conversion rate is really where we're living right now in terms of what we're optimizing against a strong enough correlation to the outcome we need, but early enough in the stage that we can capture it in a timely manner and take action against it in real time.

那我们来说说

So let's

深入聊聊这个话题。

dive into it.

我能跟大家聊一整天数据相关的内容。

I can talk about data with you guys all day.

这是我最喜欢聊的话题。

It's my favorite thing to talk about.

而且正如里奇刚才说的，在我们开始拓展业务规模之前，有一件事是最重要的。

And as Rich mentioned, the most important thing before we get to this scaling.

但马特，你们接手的这个团队，本来就已经有相当大的规模规划了。

But Matt, you guys, you walked into an organization that had some serious scale plans.

我知道你们把潜在客户数量从2024年初翻了四倍到2025年。

I know growing leads, four x from start of an '24 to '25.

这可不是一件小事。

And that is no small feat.

要实现这个目标，背后的路线图和规划有多复杂。

The roadmap and the planning of doing that and how we get there.

你能跟我们聊聊渠道组合吗？你们是怎么决定在哪些渠道加码的？怎么决定新增哪些渠道？我们又是怎么协同推进的？

Can you just talk us a little bit about the channel mix, how you decide where you double down, how you decided what to add, how we work together to do that?

是的。

Yeah.

里奇一开始的时候其实已经提过一点。

Rich alluded to this a little bit at the outset.

我刚加入的时候，正好卡迪纳尔刚被引入不久，那时候营销策略还非常单一。

When I joined and only shortly after Cardinal had been brought on, the marketing approach was pretty one node.

当时主要靠付费搜索。

It was a lot of paid search.

付费搜索对我们来说依然是个很高效的渠道，但我们在这一块已经做到极限了，再多花钱也很难产生有效回报。

Paid search is still a very productive channel for us, but we had reached demand constraints against another dollar couldn't be spent efficiently within the one channel.

在规划测试框架时，我们重点考虑了两个维度：时间和地点。

For us, as we think about the framework for testing, it was really a matter of both when and where.

我们从两个角度来分析这个问题。

We really looked at it through two lenses.

一方面，有些市场我们有服务能力——能接更多家庭和孩子进来，但就是拉不来需求。

One is we had markets, then we had capacity, meaning there was availability to get families and kids started, but we were struggling to create demand.

这主要是因为我们在付费搜索上已经用到头了。

A lot of that was because we had tapped out on paid search.

另一方面，我们也看了这些市场，弄清楚哪些地方的运营团队有意愿、有能力去尝试新方法。

The second piece was we also looked at those same markets and understood where do we have good operational support in terms of the appetite and ability to test.

这一点特别关键。

That's super important.