GSK CEO: Drug Discovery, AI in Pharma, and Changing Company Culture

大家好，我是尼古拉·唐根，挪威主权财富基金的首席执行官。

Hi everyone, I'm Nicolai Tangen, CEO of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

今天我有幸和葛兰素史克的首席执行官艾玛·沃姆斯利一起出席，葛兰素史克是全球制药行业的领军企业之一。

And today I'm in really good company with Emma Walmsley, the CEO of GSK, one of the global leaders in pharmaceuticals.

我们目前持有葛兰素史克1.7%的股份，价值13亿美元。艾玛，非常高兴能请到你。

Now, we own 1.7% of GSK valued at US1.3 billion dollars Emma, great to have you here.

能来到这里我也很开心。

Wonderful to be here.

谢谢你

Thanks for

来参与这次录制，我记得这应该是你第二次参加播客录制了

having I believe this is the second podcast ever in

的人生里。

your life.

是第二次没错。

The second ever.

哇。

Wow.

我非常期待这次交流。

Looking forward very much to the conversation.

那么，目前哪些研究领域最让你感到振奋？

Now, areas of research excites you the most just now?

其实，我对当前科学和技术领域的诸多研究进展都感到很兴奋，尤其是这两个领域结合产生的那些成果。

Well, I'm excited about a lot of the ways that research, both in science and technology, are advancing, particularly those two things together.

我想说，创新就是我们公司的核心使命，我们的大部分资金都投入到了创新领域。

I mean, it is literally the point of our company is to innovate, that's where we allocate most of our capital.

其实在我任职期间，我们的内部研发投入几乎翻了一番，除此之外，我们还通过业务发展部门和外部建立了大量合作，来充实我们的产品管线。

So in fact, since I've been in this job, think we've nearly doubled our R and D spend organically, and then of course opened up huge amounts of partnerships that we do externally in business development to supplement the pipeline.

最让我振奋的是，当我们的创新能够真正产生规模化的影响力，造福全球各地的患者。

What excites me most is when we can innovate in a way that has real impact at scale for patients around the world.

所以我对今年预计拿到的五款新药和新疫苗的上市批准感到无比期待，目前已经拿下一个，还有四个待批。

So I'm incredibly excited about five new approvals for new drugs and vaccines that we're expecting to get this year, one down and another four to go.

这还只是首批产品，我们预计在本十年推出共14款可规模化落地的药物与疫苗，每一款的潜在销售额都能超过20亿美元。

And that's the first wave of a cohort of, we think, 14 scale medicines and vaccines, each of the potential of more than 2,000,000,000 worth of sales that we expect to launch this decade.

这些产品覆盖的领域包括肿瘤学、传染病学、呼吸免疫学以及艾滋病治疗领域。

And that includes in areas of oncology, in infectious diseases, in respiratory immunology, in HIV.

其中最令人振奋的一点是，我们在制药领域拥有了全新的技术平台。

And some of these, what's really exciting is when you have totally new technology platforms in pharmaceuticals.

举个例子，多发性骨髓瘤是一种恶性极高的血液癌症，每年新增确诊病例达18万例，针对这种疾病，我们拥有一款名为抗体药物偶联物的全新技术平台。

So for example, in multiple myeloma, a very nasty blood cancer that where there are one hundred and eighty thousand new diagnoses every year, We have a new technology platform, something called antibody drug conjugates.

你得把这些药物理解成某种具备精准锁定癌细胞能力的生物导弹，这意味着它们不仅疗效更强，副作用也更少。

And you have to think of these as like kind of biological missiles that have precision targeting for cancer, which means they can bring greater efficacy, but also with less side effects.

所以我们有望推出一款治疗多发性骨髓瘤的新药，现有数据证实它能将患者的预期寿命延长三年。

So we hopefully have a new multiple myeloma drug that has data that proves it extends life expectancy by three years.

对于这类患者的总体生存期而言，这是一件意义重大的事。

That's a very big deal for these patients in terms of overall survival.

这款药物就运用了上述的全新平台技术。

In that new platform technology.

前沿科学领域另一项全新突破的例子，是一个名为寡核苷酸的研究方向。

Another example of something totally new in emerging science is in a field called oligonucleotides.

你可以把这类技术理解为RNA表达的拼写检查器，能够纠正疾病的发展机制；凭借这项技术，我们或许能为乙肝这种影响全球2.5亿人的恶疾带来一种全新的功能性治愈方案。

You have to think of these as a kind of spell check for RNA expression to correct the way disease develops, and there we may have a new functional cure for a horrible disease, hepatitis B, which impacts two fifty million people around the world.

这些都是我们短期内即将落地的新项目案例。

So these are examples of new near term assets.

你们的业务同时覆盖疫苗和药物两大领域。

You are both in vaccines and in medicines.

那这些领域之间是如何互补的呢？

And how do these areas complement each other?

其实，疫苗的根本作用是在疾病发作前就预防它。

Well, vaccines are there fundamentally to prevent disease before it starts.

在葛兰素史克，我们的理念是融合科学、技术与人才，走在疾病前面。

And at GSK, we say we combine science, tech and talent to get ahead of disease.

疫苗技术带来的投资回报率是无可比拟的。

There is no better return on investment than vaccine technology.

事实上，在医疗领域里，除了清洁用水之外，疫苗技术算得上是一种非常强大的解决方案，它主要应用在传染病防治领域，但同时也有很多令人振奋的新兴科学不断涌现。

In fact, in healthcare, perhaps except for clean water, it really is a very powerful solution, mainly in infectious diseases, but you talk about what's exciting and new science coming through.

几周前我去了牛津，考察我们在当地搭建的一个合作项目，专门研究癌前细胞生物学。

Couple of weeks ago I was in Oxford looking a partnership we've developed there to look at pre cancer cell biology.

这个领域的前景非常可观，我们正以长期发展的视角深耕这项激动人心的科学研究，展望癌症疫苗未来能带来的突破。

And that is potentially, and we're really looking on long term horizons in terms of exciting science here to imagine what cancer vaccines could bring.

这是一项非常令人振奋的科研方向。

And that's very exciting science.

说到两者的互补性，显然药物研发更多是聚焦在治疗领域。

When you talk about the complementarity, obviously, you're in medicines, you tend to be more in the treatment space.

但药物也能用于更早干预疾病进程，从而改变病情发展走向。

But that can also be earlier intervention in disease to change its course.

因为社会和医疗体系的大额开销都来自住院支出，所以对患者尽早开展干预至关重要。

Because what costs money for society and health care systems is hospitalization spending So on people being intervening earlier is really important.

我们可以借助长效药物来避免患者入院治疗。

And that can be with long acting medicines that keep people out of hospital.

我们的 pipeline 管线中有很多项目都在朝着这个方向推进，无论是艾滋病还是呼吸道疾病相关的研发都是如此。

And we have lots in our pipeline, be it in HIV or respiratory that's looking at that too.

对于那些不了解葛兰素史克（GSK）的人，您能介绍下你们销量前三的产品是什么吗？

For the people who don't know GSK, what are your three best selling products?

目前我们销量最高的产品分别聚焦于艾滋病治疗、呼吸道疾病药物以及疫苗这几个领域。

Well, biggest sellers are in HIV, in respiratory drugs, and in vaccines today.

比如在呼吸道疾病领域，有一款叫全再乐（Trelegy）的药物，它可用于治疗哮喘以及慢性阻塞性肺疾病（简称COPD）。

So in respiratory, if you look at a drug called Trelegy, and that's for both asthma and COPD, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

或许很多人都没听过这个病症，但它是全球第三大死亡诱因。

Perhaps many haven't heard of it, but it's the third leading cause of death in the world.

我记得有大约3亿人正在受这个病的困扰。

So I think three hundred million people living with that.

所以我们推出了一款可同时治疗慢性阻塞性肺疾病和哮喘的日常吸入器，名为全再乐，这款吸入器包含三种药物成分。

And so we have an everyday inhaler for both COPD and asthma called Trelegy, because it's got three drugs in it.

这款产品的市场体量非常大。

That's a huge one.

在艾滋病领域，我们有两套用药方案。

In HIV, we have two drug regimens.

要知道，确诊艾滋病曾经就等同于被判了死刑。

I mean, an HIV diagnosis used to be a death sentence.

现在它已经变成了一种可以带病长期生存的慢性病，这是因为我们研发出了多种疗效出色的药物，还有整合酶抑制剂。

Now it's something that you can live with as a chronic disease because we have these fantastic drugs that people can take and integrases inhibitors.

而且目前我们还在艾滋病长效治疗方案的研发领域保持先驱地位。

But we also now have been pioneering in long acting solutions in HIV.

这意味着你一年只需注射六次这种针剂。

So that means an injection you can take six times a year.

我们目前正在研究将注射间隔缩短至一年四次，未来最终有望实现一年仅需注射几次。

We're now looking at it being four times a year and eventually a couple of times a year.

这是一项非常出色的解决方案。

That's an extraordinary solution.

而在疫苗领域，我们率先研发出了一款效果极佳的带状疱疹疫苗。

And then in vaccines, we really pioneered with an incredibly effective shingles vaccine.

如今这款疫苗的市值已达数十亿美元。

That's a multi billion asset today.

它能提供至少11年的90%保护率，要知道，我们当中有三分之一的人

Gives ninety percent protection for at least eleven years, you know, one in three of us.

无论是这位摄像师，还是你我，都有可能在某个人生阶段患上带状疱疹，这种病带来的痛感极强，而我们已经拥有了一款对其非常有效的疫苗。

So your camera woman or you or me, we're gonna deal with shingles at some stage incredibly painful and we have a highly effective vaccines there.

还有另一个例子：我们在去年推出了全球首款呼吸道合胞病毒（RSV）疫苗，目前这款疫苗才刚刚开始在全球范围内推广。

And then another example would be we had the world's first RSV vaccine that we launched last year, still only in its very early stages of global penetration.

这些都是我们目前在推进的重大项目，但放眼未来，我认为我们也会越来越多地布局抗癌药物领域。

So those are big ones today, but for the future, I think we're looking more and more towards cancer drugs as well.

自您上任以来，您对公司的研发模式进行了重大调整，您在这个过程中做出的最大改变有哪些？

You've seen a major overhaul of your R and D approach since you So became the what are the biggest changes you made to that process?

其实这个调整过程一直都在持续，正如我一开始提到的，我们公司的宗旨就是创新，而且由于现行的专利制度，我们是为数不多的每十年就必须彻底完成自我迭代的行业之一。

Well, think this process is always ongoing because, as I said at the beginning, the purpose of our company is to innovate and we're one of the only industries that has to literally replace itself every decade because of the patent model which is in place.

我们第一步要做的很明确：就是明确优先级，完成内部组织梳理，优先将资金调配到研发领域。同时我们还对计划切入的重点疾病领域进行了彻底的梳理调整。

And the first thing to do was simply to say we want to prioritize it and put really organize ourselves to prioritize the allocation of capital to R We and had a radical overhaul of the key disease areas that we wanted to go into.

因此我们明确提出，要在产品组合及核心治疗领域内，优先发展专科药物和疫苗。

So we explicitly said we're going to prioritize specialty medicines and vaccines within the portfolio and within that are key therapy areas.

我们大力加码癌症领域的布局，通过业务拓展、收购、授权引进以及自主研发等多渠道推进相关工作。

We bet back big in cancer, both through business development, acquisitions, in licensing and homegrown innovation as well.

看到这项业务去年规模翻了一倍还多，我感到非常振奋。

I've been really excited to see that business more than double last year.

目前这项业务仍处于起步阶段，但展望未来的在研产品线——无论是我们希望今年能获批的多发性骨髓瘤疗法，还是一整套全新的抗体药物偶联物（ADC）产品线——我们认为这些成果都将为全新的癌症治疗领域提供解决方案。

It's still emerging, but I think when we look forward to the pipeline that's coming next, be it the multiple myeloma approval we hope to get this year, or a whole new portfolio of ADCs, these antibody drug conjugates, which we think will open up solutions to new areas of cancer.

说实话，你也知道，你还特意把这次录制提前了，因为开完这场会我就要去参加一位好友的葬礼，她是因胰腺癌去世的。

Mean, is, as you know, and you very kindly brought forward this recording because I'm going from this meeting to the funeral of a friend who died of pancreatic cancer.

她才50岁出头，是三个孩子的妈妈。

She was in her early 50s, mom of three.

现在越来越多的年轻人被确诊出癌症。

More and more we're seeing diagnosis in younger people for cancer.

尽管相关领域的科学发展十分迅速，也涌现出了不少新的治疗手段，但我们仍要面对像肺癌这样的难题：哪怕是全球最顶尖的治疗药物，也只能对20%的患者起效。

Although the science is advancing so fast here with new modalities, we've still got diseases like lung cancer, where even the biggest drugs in the world are only effective on twenty percent of the population.

所以我认为那里还有很多工作要做。

So I think there's a lot more work to do there.

这是我们投资组合中的一个领域。

It's one of our areas of our portfolio.

另一个正在改变研发和我们整个行业，甚至整个医疗行业的巨大变革，是技术将发挥的作用。

The other incredible transformation that is coming to R and D and our industry, and frankly, healthcare industry writ large, is what's going to be done with technology.

没错。

Exactly.

你

You

是微软的董事会成员。

are on the board of Microsoft.

对。

Correct.

这是一份巨大的荣幸，我已经担任了六年。

Great privilege that that is, and I have been for six years.

你从微软那里带了哪些东西到这些流程中？

What are you taking from Microsoft into the processes?

首先，我要重申一下，我作为葛兰素史克首席执行官的核心职责是问责。

Well, first of all, just to reiterate, obviously my core job on accountability is as the CEO of GSK.

是的，当然。

Yeah, sure.

通常当有人担任董事会成员时，我会有点怀疑，对吧？

Normally I'm a bit skeptical when people are on boards, right?

这非常有用。

This is hugely useful.

没错。

Well, exactly.

所以你看，这里就能清楚地看到，对吧？

So here you can just see it, right?

这应该能真正帮助你引入新技术并

It should really enable you to bring in new technologies and

这完全是好事。

be It's totally good.

（语句存在表述不清的问题，原文本逻辑不通顺）

Cutting believe

我们都应该加入微软的董事会。

We should all be on the board of Microsoft.

我也希望能有这个机会，我真的很想去。

I wish I were would love to.

首先，这些共通之处非常有意思。

First of all, it's very interesting, the crossovers.

那接下来还有哪些

Then what are

在你提到科技、人工智能如今还有生成式人工智能会改变所有行业乃至整个社会这个显而易见的重要性之前，

the Before you get into the obvious relevance of the fact that technology, AI, now Gen AI, are going to change every industry and society.

而且这是我们能想象到的最令人振奋的时期，尤其是考虑到全球有三分之一的数据都和医疗保健相关。

And it's the most exciting time we can possibly imagine, especially when you consider a third of the world's data is related to health care.

而医疗保健领域在可持续性、可负担性，以及人口老龄化趋势下仍存在的大量未被满足的需求方面，都面临着最为严峻的挑战之一。

And health care is one of the biggest challenges in terms of its sustainability, its affordability, and the enormous amount of unmet need there is out there when you think about aging populations.

除此之外，实际上所有科技公司都一致认为，医疗保健领域从广义上来说，是体现科技发展潜力及其对社会产生积极价值的最佳研究案例。

The rest, in fact, there isn't a single tech company that doesn't think that the best case study for the the possibilities of technology and its positive contribution to society is health care, writ large.

对于葛兰素史克而言，最令人兴奋的一点同时也是我们面临的最大挑战，就是研发环节的生产效率。

What is most exciting for GSK is our biggest challenge, is the productivity of R and D.

发现并成功研发一款新药，真的是一件极其困难的事。

It is really, really hard to discover and develop a drug.

这就是整个行业的现状。

And this is industry writ large.

90%的项目都会失败，当你考量我们这个行业的经济模式——以及我们必须承担失败成本的情况时，这个事实就格外值得重视。

90% of the assets fail, which is important thing when you think about the economic model of our industry and having to cover the cost of failure.

一个项目要耗时十年，成本可能高达数十亿美元。

It takes a decade and it can cost billions.

因此，做好资金配置对我们而言是一件至关重要的事。

So capital allocation is a very, very important thing for us to do.

但不妨试想一下，在这个数据、遗传学、基因组学、医疗服务供给、还有可穿戴科技等新兴技术爆发的时代里，我们研发价值链的各个方面都会发生怎样的变化。

But just imagine in this world of the explosion of data, genetics and genomics and health care systems provision and new tech, wearable tech, how every aspect of the value chain for us in R and D.

我们不妨对照传统的线性模式来看：首先是靶点选择，也就是生物靶点筛选，接着是分子设计，然后是我们所说的CMC，也就是将研发成果转化为规模化生产的环节——尤其是在各类全新技术平台层出不穷的当下，这个环节很容易出现瓶颈，甚至遭遇研发失败。

And we think of that if you looked at the traditional linear mode, you would say target selection, so biological target selection, molecule design, what we call CMC, so the transition of that into manufacturing, because that often can be, especially with all these new technology platforms, can be an area where you can get bottlenecks or a failure rate.

之后就进入了成本极高的临床试验阶段。

And then you get into clinical trials where things get really expensive.

而患者识别正是临床试验环节的一部分。

And patient identification is a part of that.

过去我们一直采用线性研发模式，但如今我们已经开始运用人工智能，有时还会用到生成式人工智能。

So we've traditionally gone through a linear mode and each one of those, today we are using AI and sometimes Gen AI.

借助这些技术，我们能更精准地预判最初选定的生物学靶点的成功概率，同时我们也会使用遗传数据，目前已经有不少相关实践案例了。

Whether it's to get more precision around the probability of success about the original biological target, and then we're using genetic data as well, and we have examples of that.

我们还会利用这些技术打造业内顶尖的化学分子库，实现在计算机中模拟设计分子，这项工作目前也在推进当中。

Whether it's about building completely industry leading chemistry libraries to allow us to design molecules in silico, and again, that work is going on.

有句名言说得很对——未来已然到来，只是还没有实现规模化普及、还没能均匀地惠及所有人。

We're not It's that famous quote about, you know, the future here is here, but it's not scaled and evenly distributed yet.

我得说我们开展这些实验还处于初期阶段，但目前有

I would say we're still in the early stages of doing these experimentation, but there's a

很多……所以当你进一步了解你们运用技术以及使用人工智能的情况后，迄今为止这些技术给你们带来了什么帮助？未来还会有多大的提升空间？

lot So when you more work see how you've used technology and how you use AI, what has it done for you so far, and how much more improvement will there

哦，我觉得我们才刚刚摸到一点门道而已。

Oh, I think we've hardly scratched the surface.

我们已经将它用于临床试验的设计中，用来预测结果，还能够追踪传染病的发展规律，

We're already using it in the design of our clinical trials to predict outcomes, to be able to follow patterns of infectious diseases,

那你觉得未来五年左右，也就是近段时间内，这些技术会带来什么改变呢？

So what do close think it would do, let's say, over the next five years?

你们会采取哪些行动，又要如何衡量

What will you do, and how will you measure

嗯，我们会通过研发流程的表现来衡量它的作用。

Well, we will measure it in the performance of the discovery and development process.

它能压缩成本、缩短研发周期，理想情况下还能帮我们为现有的药物和疫苗锁定适用的适应症范围。

It will reduce cost, reduce time, and ideally allow us to target labels for the medicines and vaccines that we have.

无论是阐述这些药物的疗效，我们都能更精准地设计临床试验，锁定特定的患者群体，从而收获格外突出的成效。

So either the descriptions of their benefits because we can design trials in a more precise way for patients that are specifically targeted so you can get a disproportionate benefit.

我给你举两个例子吧。

I'll give you two examples.

哦不对，我应该举三个例子。

I talked about three examples.

我之前提到过乙型肝炎，这是一种影响2.5亿人的重大疾病。

I talked about hepatitis B, is this huge disease that impacts two fifty million people.

但这其中存在截然不同的特征分布情况。

But there are very different profiles within that.

通过对患者进行更精准的特征分析和表型分析，我们就能设计出针对性的临床试验，在更小的患者群体（而非全部患者）中验证其显著疗效。

By being able to do much more precision profiling, phenotyping of patients, we're then able to design clinical trials to show a disproportionate impact on a smaller cohort, not all of them.

这样我们最终就能实现所谓的功能性治愈，也就是让患者能够更正常地带病生活。

So that you can then get to what we call a functional cure, as in people can then live with the disease more normally.

我们的早期试验已经显现出这种成效，后续三期临床试验也会得出相应的试验数据。

Our early trials are showing that, we're gonna have readouts of phase three as well.

这就是其中一个例子。

That would be one example.

另一个例子是不同癌症类型的相关生物标志物。

Another would be when you look at the biomarkers around different cancer types.

比如结直肠癌，其实我们是从子宫内膜癌的研究中获得了经验，我们研究了一种名为DMMR的特定基因标记，它让我们能更精准地锁定癌症的靶向人群，我们在早期试验中就取得了100%的成功率，这也让我们得以进入风险可控的三期试验。

So in colorectal cancer, from learnings we did in endometrial cancer actually, we looked at particular genetic marker called DMMR which allowed us to be much more precise on the targeting in cancer and then have trials where we've had them in the early stages, one hundred percent success rates, which would allow us to then go into at risk phase three trials.

还有一个例子是我们加快了呼吸道合胞病毒疫苗的研发，这个案例相对简单。

Another example would be accelerated our RSV vaccine, and this is a simpler one.

我们将呼吸道合胞病毒疫苗的研发成果落地时间提前了两年，因为我们得以分析全球不同地区的传染病传播模式，提前结束了临床试验。

Accelerated our RSV vaccine outcomes by two years, because we were able to look at the infectious disease patterns in different parts of the globe and call the closure of clinical trials earlier.

我们现在拥有一款疫苗，对90%需要住院治疗的重症人群的保护效力超过90%。

And we've got a vaccine that has over ninety percent efficacy on those that represent ninety percent of the hospitalization.

所以目前来看，这些都还只是个别案例。

So at the moment, these are spot examples.

你认为这种方式能提高研发的成功率吗？

Do you think it will improve the heat rate?

是的，肯定会——关于这点来说

Yes, without any With which

是你推动了这些早期阶段的突破性进展吗？

you bring the early stage breakthroughs?

毫无疑问会的，这一点是最关键的

Without any that, and that's the most important fact.

实际上，我认为我们接下来要做的是——我觉得五年内，或者我敢说绝对在十年之内，我希望在此期间能涌现出越来越多这样的案例

In fact, I think what we're going to do, I think this, five years, I'd say definitely within ten years and I hope we'll have more and more examples along that way.

不过与其沿用这种线性流程，我们会转向所谓的‘闭环实验室’模式，虽然这个术语已经被用滥了。

But instead of having this linear process, we're going to move to more of a lab in a loop, which is an overused term.

但我们会真正落实逆向转化——从患者端出发，而非从靶点向外推导，这样坦率来讲，我们就能为患者群体实现更精准的靶向治疗，更快获得更出色的治疗成果。

But you actually get into reverse translation, patient back rather than target out, so that we can get to, frankly, faster, better outcomes with more precise targeting for patient cohorts.

不过艾玛，所有制药公司不都在这么做吗？

But Emma, aren't all pharmaceutical companies doing this?

希望如此。

I hope so.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

希望如此。

Hope so.

我倒不这么觉得，我认为你们得保持足够强大的优势才行。

I hope not, I think you need to be pretty thick.

但问题是，这件事最终会

But the thing is that what is it going to

会给竞争格局带来什么影响？

do to the competitive landscape?

好吧，尼古拉，我希望我们先退一步梳理一下情况。

Well, I hope Nicolai, let's just step back.

归根结底，我们的职责是满足全球范围内现存的大量未被满足的医疗需求。

In the end, our job is to meet the enormous amount of unmet need there is out there in the world.

我们目前开展的大部分项目都没能取得成功。

Most of what we do doesn't work.

我认为如果这个行业——坦白说，目前已经有太多关于它的负面网飞电影——能够向全世界展现科学与技术结合所能创造的正向价值，那绝对是一件好事。

I think it is a wonderful thing if this industry that frankly has too many negative Netflix movies made out about it, is able to show the world what science and technology combined can do for good.

目前全球仍有诸多疾病找不到应对之法。

We still have so many diseases that don't have solutions around the world.

其中最为棘手、同时也是科学界最具探索价值的长期难题之一，就是各类神经退行性疾病，包括痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病，我们至今都还没有有效的应对方案。

One of the biggest ones, the most exciting area for science, I think, the long term where we don't have good solutions in is in everything to do with neurodegeneration, dementia, and Alzheimer's.

而在未来的十到二十年间，我认为这类疾病的发展轨迹将会发生翻天覆地的改变。

The trajectory of disease is going to change hugely, I think, over the next ten or twenty years.

你可以设想一下，随着减肥药物领域取得这些惊人的突破，代谢类疾病及其后遗症带来的负担未来将会减轻，我个人是这么认为的。

If you imagine that metabolic disorders that are going to be, I think, and their sequelae, because of what's going on in these amazing discoveries in the obesity drugs, is going to be less of a burden.

但二十年后，全球80岁以上的人口数量会变成现在的三倍。

But we're going to have triple the number of over 80s in twenty years' time than we have today.

你知道吗，我有点担心，而且还有……

You know, I'm afraid like And

还有带状疱疹，我很快也会到那个年纪，不过……

shingles I'm people going to be there soon, but

如果你处于我们这个年龄段，那么在座所有人大脑患痴呆或阿尔茨海默病的概率，恐怕仍然是三分之一。

Well, if you're in our age group, again, the probability for all the brains in the room, the probability of dementia or Alzheimer's, I'm afraid is again one in three.

所以我们需要看到

So we need to see

越来越多的技术被引入研发等领域。

the introduction of of increasing technologies into into R and D and so on.

美国公司会比欧洲公司更有优势吗？

Are The US companies going to be better positioned than the Europeans?

我不这么认为。

I wouldn't say that.

我的意思是，我们有一些非常优秀的欧洲制药公司，它们有着辉煌的历史和强大的创新能力。

I mean, we have some great European based pharma companies with proud histories and strong innovation.

我认为它们

I think they are

受到更严格的监管以及对技术、人工智能等不同看法的制约吗？

held back by increased regulation and different ways of looking at technology, AI and so on?

首先我想说的是，美国的科技企业是面向全球供应的。

I would say, first of all, the American tech companies supply the world.

他们的服务对象不止美国本土。

They don't only supply The US.

我确实认为监管问题是很重要的。

I do think the question of regulation is important.

我们需要以促进发展为核心的监管模式。

And we need growth focused regulation.

不过说实话，尼古拉，我认为我们也需要负责任的监管，这一点非常重要。

But honestly, Nicolai, I think it's really important that we have responsible regulation too.

比如质量、隐私、安全这些问题。

Questions like quality, privacy, security.

我觉得欧洲必须放开各种发展可能性，毕竟我们有强大的监管机构，包括欧洲药品管理局、美国食品药品监督管理局，还有英国的药品和健康产品管理局。

I think it's important that Europe opens up the possibilities, because we have strong regulators in the EMA and the FDA and the MHRA here in The UK.

但我们必须认清，我们要做的最重要的事是推出可靠、安全且可规模化的解决方案，而患者们都在等待。

But we have to recognize the most important thing we do is bring trusted, safe, scale solutions, and patients are waiting.

你现在看到中国和印度有什么新动向吗？

What are you now seeing coming out of China and India?

很多。

A lot.

中国研发的首创药物所占份额、临床开发速度以及创新审批速度都在大幅加快，我们也在积极开展业务拓展，寻找中国那些希望将药物出口到全球的优秀资产。

The share of first in class drugs developed in China, the pace of clinical development, the pace of innovation approval are all speeding up a lot, and we're doing quite a lot of business development, finding great assets in China that want to export their drugs the world.

在医疗领域，药物定价与可及性和可负担性之间总是存在权衡。

Now in the medical sector, there's always a trade off between how you price your drugs and the availability and affordability.

你不认为存在这种权衡吗？

You don't think there is a trade off?

嗯，我认为偶尔会有紧张关系，我

Well, think there's occasionally tensions, I

这种紧张关系有变化吗？

Has that tension changed?

这种紧张关系有任何改变吗？

Is a tension changing in any way?

其实我完全不认为这是非此即彼的对立关系。

Well, don't see these as an eitheror in any way.

我认为从本质上来说，它们必须是相辅相成的整体。

I think they are structurally they have to be an ant.

因为如果无法规模化落地，那称不上是真正的创新。

Because you're not innovating unless you do it at scale.

葛兰素史克（GSK）定下了目标，我们要在这十年内触达25亿人群。

GSK we say we want to reach two and a half billion people this decade.

这正是我们的与众不同之处。

It's one of the things that differentiates us.

我认为，我们的影响力规模与我们自身的体量相比是很不成比例的（远超出体量预期）。

I think there is, is the scale of our impact relative to our size.

我发现大众对我们行业的运营逻辑存在很大的误解，大家不理解为了覆盖研发失败的成本、同时体现药物和疫苗为医疗体系创造的价值，这样的定价是必要的。

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about the economics of our industry in terms of the pricing that is required to cover the cost of failure and the value that drugs and vaccines bring to a healthcare system.

别忘了，治疗病患、收治病人入院才是真正耗费成本的事。

And remember what's expenses is treating sick people and having them in hospital.

我们都知道早诊断更好，早干预也更好。

We all know an earlier diagnosis is better, an earlier intervention is better.

我们需要重视创新，并且要意识到目前还有许许多多的疾病尚无应对方案。

We need to value the innovation and recognize that there are so many diseases that don't have solutions yet.

但同时，我认为我们肩负着推动医疗资源可及性的社会责任。

But at the same time, we have a social responsibility, I believe, to drive access.

全球目前有20亿人无法获得自身所需的医疗服务，而且这并非只是发展中国家才需要面对的问题。

And there are 2,000,000,000 people in the world that don't have access to the healthcare they need, and it's not just a developing country agenda.

顺便说一下，自可及药物指数创立以来，葛兰素史克每年都稳居该指数榜首或第二名。

By the way, GSK has been top of the Access Medicine or second of the Access to Medicines Index every single year since it was founded.

我们非常自豪能与全球疫苗免疫联盟合作，为疫苗推行分级定价机制，比如在艾滋病诊疗领域，目前全球共有2800万患者正在使用整合酶抑制剂类药物。

And we're really proud of the work we do with Gavi to provide tiered pricing on vaccines with, in HIV, where of the twenty eight million people that are on integrase these inhibitors.

其中有2300万患者主要分布在撒哈拉以南非洲地区。

Twenty three of them are million of them in the world, mainly in Sub Saharan Africa.

这之所以能实现，是因为我们开放了自身的知识产权，为当地供应这些药物。

Because we opened up our IP to provide those drugs there.

所以我认为这不是非此即彼的选择题，而是两者必须兼顾的事。同时我们也必须更努力地做好沟通工作，阐明我们这个行业的商业模式与创造的价值，并且极度认真地承担起这些责任。

So I think it's not an either or, it is an and, but we have to do a better job of communicating also about the business model and the value that our industry brings and take these responsibilities extremely seriously.

而且这并非只是发展中国家才会面临的问题，尼古拉。

And it's not just a developing country, Nicolai.

在伦敦，伦敦东部和伦敦西南部的人口预期寿命居然相差了12年。

In London, between East London and South West London, there's a twelve year difference between life expectancy.

还有在你的美丽祖国挪威，药品的可及性问题——我来这里之前特意查过相关数据：2022年欧洲集中获批的278种药品里，有40%至今都还没在挪威上市。

And in your beautiful country, access to medicines, I checked this and was just looking at it before coming here, but I think of the two seventy eight, I think it was, medicines, this is in 2022, that were centrally approved in Europe, 40% of them are not yet available in Norway.

但我想说的是，可及性绝不只是我们惯常讨论的、给世界上最贫穷国家提供艾滋病治疗这回事——哪怕是世界上最富裕的国家，也存在这个问题。

But I'm just saying that access is not simply a question of what we're familiar with talking in terms of AIDS to the poorest countries in the world, in the richest countries in the world.

有些时候，可及性指的是及时获得审批通过。

Sometimes it's getting approvals on time.

在这一方面，美国绝对是走在前列的，绝对领先。

And this is where The US is definitely ahead, definitely ahead.

咱们再深入聊聊疫苗的话题，我知道贵公司是全球疫苗领域的领军者。

Drilling down on vaccines, I know you're a global leader in vaccines.

我们从新冠疫情中学到了什么？

What did we learn from COVID?

嗯，学到了很多。

Well, a lot.

最重要的三件事。

Top three things.

老年人疫苗接种对医疗保健和社会有着非常重要的贡献。

Older adult vaccination is a really important contribution to healthcare and society.

我们很多人习惯为孩子接种疫苗，也熟悉流感疫苗，但现在我们正看到疫苗技术在老年人群体中的广泛应用。

A lot of us are used to vaccinating our children and have been familiar with flu vaccines, but you're seeing this opening up of vaccine technology for older adults.

从地缘政治角度看，供应链安全是我们所有人都必须认真思考的问题，葛兰素史克也已大力投资于区域供应链，不仅限于疫苗，还包括药品。

Supply chain security geopolitically is something that we all have to be thoughtful about And certainly something that GSK has invested in very aggressively in terms of regional supply chains, not just in vaccines, but also in medicines.

去年，我们宣布将在美国的药品和疫苗制造领域再投资8亿英镑。

Last year, announced another 800,000,000 that we're spending in both medicine and vaccine manufacturing in The US.

我们还拥有强大的欧洲供应链，并在中国建立了疫苗分销合作伙伴关系。

We also have strong European supply chains and we have partnerships in China for distribution of vaccines.

然后我想到的第三件事——如果我只能说三点的话，其实我还能列出很多——就是我们必须警惕疫苗犹豫的问题，而且这个问题还出现了一定程度的政治化，不过通过

And then I think the third thing, if I'm only allowed three, although I could make the list go on, is we really have to watch out for the questions of vaccines hesitancy around And the there's been a bit of politicization of that specifically But through

所以说，这完全是一个轮回。

So, this is a real a whole come.

疫苗曾让世界重回正轨，可现在却充斥着这么多虚假信息、疫苗犹豫情绪，还有反疫苗群体之类的问题。

Vaccines got the world back on its feet, and then now there is so much misinformation and vaccine hesitancy and anti vaxx and so on.

为什么会变成这样呢？

Just why is this?

我们要记住，疫苗本质上是给健康的儿童或成年人接种的。

Let's remember vaccines by definition are being given to healthy children or adults.

这属于预防保健。

It is preventative care.

所以你早上醒来的时候，我还记着呢——我是四个孩子的妈妈。

So you wake up in the morning, I can remember, I'm a mom of four.

我还记得带着我刚出生的宝宝去接种疫苗的场景，顺便说一句，我在三个不同的国家生过孩子，每个地方的疫苗政策都不一样，至少当时给我的感觉是这样的。

I remember taking my brand new babies, by the way, which were born in, I have experience of three different countries of giving birth and you have different vaccine policies or it felt like you did.

你有这些问题。

You have these questions.

我有一个珍贵的新生儿。

I've got this precious newborn.

这是什么？

What is this?

我给他们注射的是什么？

What am I giving them?

这意味着什么？

What's it mean?

你希望获得信息。

And you want to have information.

我认为，我们显然经历了新冠疫情的全球性考验，这给医疗系统带来了巨大压力。

Then I think obviously we went through the global experience of COVID, which engendered huge pressure on the healthcare systems.

我认为，许多国家采取了保护主义政策，对疫苗投入了巨大精力，并关注一些此前从未被开发过的全新技术。

I think a lot of national protectionism, tremendous energy around vaccines and a focus on some brand new technologies that had never been developed vaccines before.

大家当时对此都有疑问。

People had questions about that.

每天都有相关新闻报道，同时大家还对当中涉及的风险满怀担忧。

They had simultaneous fears about the risks involved and the news that was coming every day.

至于那些全新的技术，大家都希望能确保相关的宣传内容是值得信任的。

And then new technologies that they were being, They wanted to make sure that they could trust the communication about.

所以这事终究还是会回到这些信任的问题上，还有

So it does come back to these questions of trust And

那葛兰素史克（GSK）在这方面发挥了什么作用？

what does GSK do here?

其实我们的答案和过去始终一致，听我解释。

Well, our answer is what it has always been, okay?

那就是，我们始终秉持的做法是：正如我们如今所承担的责任——坦白说，通过我们的全球项目为全球40%的儿童接种疫苗，同时还在研发新的疫苗管线——我们会认真倾听人们的疑问，保持透明的沟通，并且将对产品质量、安全性和可信度的百分之百承诺作为一切工作的基石。

Which is you start off by saying, if you have the responsibility of, as we do today, frankly vaccinating forty percent of the world's children through our global programs and a pipeline of new vaccines, of listening hard to people's questions, communicating transparently, underpinning everything with a 100% commitment to quality and safety and trust in our products.

另外要清楚，光是嘴上喊着“相信我们”这套根本行不通，坦白说，我们作为一家要对股东负责、还需要从这些业务中获利的上市公司，这么做绝对不是最有效的方式。

And remembering shouting trust us, frankly a company that is a public company with responsibilities to shareholders and that has to generate profits from these things, is not the most effective way.

所以我们寻求与各国政府合作，完全透明地提供相关数据，并且切实深入到有疑问的民众当中——比如深入各个社区，因为很多疑问也正是在社区里产生的。

So we seek to partner with governments to provide the data in total transparency and to frankly go to where people are with their questions, be it in the community, because that often is that as well.

但同时我们也不能忽略这样一个事实：美国每年要花费90亿美元，用于治疗那些本可以通过疫苗预防的疾病所导致的住院患者。

But also not to lose sight of the fact that, I mean, The US spends $9,000,000,000 a year on the hospitalization of people from vaccines preventable diseases.

所以我认为，我们当下所处的时代，民众会有各种各样的疑问，而我们需要做的，就是始终保持冷静，以我们历代坚守的价值理念为根基开展工作，持续解答民众的所有疑问。

So I think we're working through an age where people have questions and we just need to calmly continue to underpin our work with the value set that we've been committed to for generations and keep answering people's questions.

比尔·盖茨写过一本书，探讨如何更好地应对下一次大流行病，书中提到大概每年需要投入10亿美元来做相关准备。

Bill Gates wrote a book about how the next pandemic could be handled better by spending, I think it's roughly $1,000,000,000 per year.

但事实并非如此。

But that's not happening.

那我们为什么不能更好地为下一次大流行病做准备呢？

So why are we not preparing ourselves better for the next pandemic?

其实我认为我们正在做准备，至少在行业内部是这样的。

Well, I think we are, actually, at least inside the industry.

不过我同意你的看法，大家的记性好像都有点差了，你说是不是？

Although I agree with you that memories feel a bit short, don't they?

就目前来看。

At the moment.

而这件事面临的挑战在于，要维持这些产能处于待命状态，容我这么表述的话。

And the challenges around this one is you're trying to keep capacity warm, if I can say that.

但实际情况是，在葛兰素史克，我们目前已经和欧洲、美国、加拿大签订了大流行病防控相关的合同，内容涵盖随时准备调配我们的佐剂，或是大流行病暴发前就备好相关储备资产。

Now, the reality is at GSK, we have contracts today with Europe, The US, Canada around pandemic preparedness, be it to be ready with our adjuvant or pre pandemic assets.

我们还有几款大流行前流感疫苗正在接受优先审评。

We have some prioritized reviews for pre pandemic flu vaccines.

事实上，我们还和世界卫生组织签订了合约，确保任何现有供应中的10%都能立即供给全球部分欠发达国家。

And in fact, we're contracted also with the WHO to make sure that I think 10% of any ready supply would also be immediately available some of the more underdeveloped countries in the world.

所以我认为，现在的准备工作确实比以前更好了。

So I would say there is better preparation.

我们无法阻止下一场大流行病的到来，但我希望全世界都能记住这次的教训，能在更多生命逝去之前更快地行动起来。

We won't be able to stop another pandemic coming, but I hope the world will remember and that we will mobilize faster before so many lives are lost.

还有一件事也是我们葛兰素史克公司一直在认真考量的，那就是另一种大流行——有时被人们称作‘慢疫情’的抗生素耐药性问题。除非我们研发出更多新型抗生素，否则到2050年，这一问题预计会造成3800万人死亡。

But I'll tell you something else that we are really thoughtful about at GSK, which is a different kind of pandemic and where and that's sometimes referred to as the slow one, which is antimicrobial resistance, which will kill, I think it's thirty eight million people by 2050, unless we develop more antibiotics.

我们在这个领域拥有规模庞大的现有产品组合和研发管线。

And we have a very big portfolio and pipeline here.

去年我们投资了约4000万英镑参与弗莱明相关项目，该项目由英国帝国理工学院牵头推进，旨在开展相关研究。

Last year we invested, I think 40,000,000 with the Fleming work that's done, led out of The UK with Imperial as well to try and research

这正是英国的优势领域，对吗？

This is where The UK is very strong, right?

没错，英国在抗微生物药物耐药性（AMR）领域有着深厚的研究积淀，而且我认为这个问题正在造成全球范围内的人员死亡。

Well, it's got a proud history in AMR and I think this is killing people all over the world.

抗生素研发领域确实存在一大难题，因为这本质上是要求行业投入研发一款你绝不希望被过度大量使用的药物。

It's a real challenge in antibiotics because obviously you're asking the industry to develop drugs that you then don't want to be over subscribed.

你知道吗，其实我希望今年能拿到的五项药品批件里，就有一款全新的抗生素，它针对的是女性非常高发的非复杂性尿路感染。

So, you know, actually one of the five approvals I'm hoping to get this year is for a brand new antibiotic in the common, very common for women, UTI, uncomplicated UTI space.

我们已经有整整二十年没有推出过全新的抗生素了。

We haven't had a new antibiotic for twenty years.

所以我很有希望能在今年晚些时候拿到这款药的上市批件。

So I'm hopeful we'll get that approved later this year.

你提到我很快就要80岁了。

You mentioned that I was soon going to be 80 years old.

现在

Now

我没说过这个。

I didn't mention that.

是的，老年人需要接种很多疫苗，对吧？

No, the elderly need to get a lot of vaccines, right?

流感、新冠、带状疱疹、肺炎。

Flu, COVID, shingles, pneumonia.

我们什么时候能看到把这些疫苗都组合成一针呢？

When will we see a combination of all these things into one shot?

我们和其他机构正在研发联合疫苗。

There is ongoing work on combo vaccines from us and from others.

我们早就习惯在儿童疫苗中使用联合疫苗了。

We're used to having some combination vaccines with paediatric vaccines.

我觉得你需要梳理清楚一个问题——当然，这显然不只是把所有疫苗简单叠加在一起那么简单，除此之外，你还得考虑不同疫苗的保护时效问题。

I think the thing you have to think through is what is, well it's not as simple as just adding them together obviously, but you also have to think through what the durability of different vaccines is.

我举个例子吧，我们的呼吸道合胞病毒疫苗，它是针对一种季节性呼吸道感染的疫苗，现在我们已经掌握它的情况了。

So I'll give you the example, our RSV vaccine we now know has, that's a seasonal respiratory infection.

我们已知这款疫苗的保护作用至少能维持三年，甚至有可能延长到五年。

We know we have protection probably at least three years, maybe it will go up to five.

而流感疫苗的情况则不同，流感病毒显然每年都会发生变异。

Flu tends to be something that mutates obviously every single year.

所以在开发一款需要每年接种，或是间隔更久才需复种的联合疫苗时，你得先规划好具体要组合哪些疫苗。

So you have to think about what the combinations would be when you're providing a solution that is required on an annual basis or more extended like that.

所以这件事要更复杂一些。

So it's a bit more complicated.

不过我认为现在已经出现了一些新技术平台，未来或许能支持研发出更多种联合疫苗。

I think there are new technology platforms that will allow more combinations potentially.

mRNA技术就是我们和其他同行都在研究的方向之一。

So mRNA is one that we and others are looking at.

但这背后的科学原理相当复杂。

But the science here is quite complex.

再说一次，我们需要同时关注疫苗的有效性和 reactogenicity（不良反应原性），来判断这类联合疫苗是否会成为有效的解决方案，但这绝对是未来的发展方向之一。

And again, you want to be in a place where you're looking at both efficacy and reactogenicity as well to see whether that combination is going to be an effective solution, but definitely something that's on the horizon.

那我们换个话题聊聊，你加入葛兰素史克（GSK）时背负的任务是要对公司进行大刀阔斧的改革，你都推动了哪些重大变革呢？

Moving on a bit, you came into GSK with a remit of dramatically change What the are some of the dramatic changes you've done?

我其实不想用“大刀阔斧”这个词来形容，但我们确实在集团战略、架构、资本配置以及资产负债表方面推进了非常重大的调整——我们刚接手时资产负债表是个很大的难题，这也是我们拆分 consumer healthcare 业务赫力昂（Halion）的部分原因。

Don't know what the dramatic is the word that I'd want to use to describe it, but certainly very significant change in group strategy, structure, capital allocation, balance sheet, which was a major challenge when we came in, which is part of the reason why we did the demerger of Halion.

其实我最早加入的是惠康基金会（Which？原文表述此处略有口误），我的职业背景是做消费品的。

I mean, I'd originally joined Which is where you My background was in consumer goods.

我从中国搬到伦敦，负责组建葛兰素史克（GSK）的消费品部门。

I moved from China to London to build the consumer division of GSK.

期间我们推进了两起大规模的全球合资项目，坦白说先是完成了对诺华业务组合的收购与整合，之后又和辉瑞开展了相关合作。

And we went through two massive global joint ventures, firstly with Novartis' portfolio and integrations, frankly, and then with Pfizer's.

后来当我担任首席执行官的时候，我非常清楚地意识到，我们从零打造、销售额做到40亿到100亿级别的这家企业，永远不会成为集团资本分配的首要投向对象。

Then when I was CEO, it became very, very obvious to me that solve, that the business that we built up from, I don't know, 4 to 10,000,000,000 in sales was never gonna be the primary recipient of capital allocation.

它当时是葛兰素史克内部一个独立封闭的部门，我在季度业绩会上从来没有被问到过任何和它相关的问题。

It was sort of locked up division inside GSK that I never got a single question on at quarterly results.

所以让这家业务独立运营会好得多，而且看到他们现在发展得这么出色，我感到非常欣慰。

And so it would be much better to set that business free, and I'm delighted to see how brilliantly they're doing with that.

同时我们也能借此重整葛兰素史克的资产负债表，说实话，还能为公司的增长注入动力，实现增长的跨越式提升。

But also use that to reset the balance sheet and of GSK, and frankly, enable this fueling of growth and a step change in growth.

目前进展

How far

那您的变革计划目前已经进入实施阶段了吗？

are you into the into your change plan now?

其实你知道吗，今年年初我非常开心，因为我们第二次上调了2031年的发展预期。

Well, you know, I was really pleased at the beginning of this year to upgrade our 2031 outlook for the second time.

仅仅用了四年时间，我们就给这个预期目标又增加了70亿的规模。

And that's, you know, we've added another 7,000,000,000 to the outlook just in four years.

这意味着本十年内我们的生物制药板块销售额将新增170亿；而我刚接手的时候，整个板块的销售额才刚过200亿。

That means we'll grow 17,000,000,000 this decade in sales, which, you know, when I started, we were only just over 20, so on the biopharma bit.

所以我对目前的进展非常满意，但这项工作永远都不会完结，正如我之前说过的，在我们这个行业，由于行业的迭代特性，我们每十年都必须完成一次自我重塑

So I'm really pleased with the progress, but the work is never ever done on this because, as I said, you know, in our industry, we have to reinvent ourselves every decade because of the rolling pattern

你遇到的最大的理念转变是什么？

What's the biggest mentality change you have?

哦，这可是我最喜欢的问题。

Oh, well, is my favorite question.

你看，这也是我最喜欢的问题。

Well, mine too, you see.

那我们不如删掉这期播客剩下的内容，就从这儿重新开始——顺便说一句，我特别喜欢你刚才提到的「心态」这个说法，因为如果要问我当初想要推动的根本性变革是什么，我认为企业文化绝对是我们一直努力改变的核心之一

So we should delete the rest of this podcast and just start here because I like the way you said mentality, by the way, because if you say what was the radical change that I wanted to drive for, I think culture is definitely one of the things that we've been working hard to change

过去这个国家（的市场情况）大多是怎样的？

What most the of country in the past?

其实葛兰素史克以各种不同的形态存续至今，已经有三百多年的历史了

Well, it's a company that's been around for over three hundred years in a whole variety of forms.

所以我们有着悠久且值得自豪的过往

So it's got a long and proud history.

但当我被任命开始这项工作时，目标是在保留那些长期以来让公司变得独特的事物的同时，改变公司的业绩轨迹，包括对全球健康的承诺，以及一种深度协作的文化。

But when I was asked to start, it was to change the performance trajectory of the company whilst retaining some things that have made it very special for a long time, including a commitment to global health, including a deeply collaborative culture.

因为这是一个重视合作与偶然机遇的行业——因为这项工作很难，因为正是思想、创意和创造性摩擦的碰撞才能催生出卓越的成果。

Because this is an industry where partnership and serendipity matter because it's hard and because it's the clash of brains and ideas and creative friction that can create good things.

但我想，尽管我们为自己改变疾病进程、提供药品可及性的使命感到自豪，我们却逐渐迷失了方向。

But I think we've become, for all the pride in our purpose to change the course of disease and to provide access to medicines.

我们在业绩优势方面、在关注公司外部方面，已经失去了方向。

And we'd lost our way in terms of performance edge, in terms of looking outside the company.

顺便说一句，这种情况在许多大公司都会发生：你变得高度矩阵化，认为一天的工作就是开好会议，不够敏捷，开始觉得所有优秀的科学都只存在于公司内部。

This happens in a lot of big companies by the way, you get heavily matrixed, you think a day at work is doing good meeting and you're not agile enough and you start to think that all good science is inside.

那么，你如何改变这种状况呢？

So how do you change this?

首先，你要明确指出这非常重要，并将其列为公司的明确优先事项之一。

First of all, you say it's really important and you make it one of the stated priorities for the company.

因此，自从我上任以来，我一直非常明确地表示：我们有三大优先事项，分别是创新、业绩和信任，广义上的信任。

So I've been very aggressive since I started to say, look, we've got three priorities, which are innovation, performance and trust, writ large.

显然，我们要明确自己在将涉足的治疗领域、专科药物以及疫苗领域的战略方向，但文化是这一切的支撑和动力。

Obviously, take our strategic direction in the therapy areas we're going to work in and specialty medicines and vaccines, but we underpin that and we power that by culture.

所以你得意识到，文化是关乎风险的核心问题，而不是单纯的人力资源事务。

So you say culture is the risk, it's not an HR issue.

它不是那种只用来写在墙上装点门面的东西。

It's not something we write on the wall.

这完完全全是公司领导层的职责，而且首先是首席执行官的工作。

It is literally the job of the leadership of the company, CEO first, by the way.

而且我认为这就是所有事物的核心竞争力所在。

And I think that is the secret source of everything.

因为在你经营一家公司的时候，我刚接手时公司有十万名员工，现在我们的员工规模是七万左右。

Because when you're running a company of, at the beginning it was 100,000 people, we're now 70 or so.

你必须搭建出一个不需要持续监督或核查的工作环境。

You have to set an environment that doesn't need constant oversight or inspection.

这就是我们的工作方式。

It's just the way we work.