詹姆斯·奎恩蒂，可口可乐公司董事长兼首席执行官

这很有趣。

It's funny.

我们最近在播客上邀请了比尔·盖茨，他只问了一件事。

We had Bill Gates on the podcast quite recently, he only had one thing he asked about.

健怡可乐。

Diet Coke.

健怡可乐。

Diet Coke.

他是个信徒。

He is a believer.

他是个信徒。

He is a believer.

当然，我们都了解可口可乐。

Now, we of course all know about Coke.

如果你要提炼出其中的秘诀，你觉得促成这一切的关键是什么？

Now, if you were to distill down the kind of secret sauce there, what do you reckon has been the secret sauce to cook?

我认为可口可乐品牌秘密配方的一个关键要素，体现在两个维度上。

I think one of the pieces, one of the elements of the secret sauce, particularly of brand Coca Cola, has been this in two dimensions.

其中一个维度是它长期以来始终如一地成为人们熟悉的参照物。

One has been an enduring ability to be both a touchstone to something you know that has been there for a long time.

我的意思是，配方本身、斯宾塞体的字体都保持不变。

I mean, the formula of the same, the Spencerian script of the font is the same.

这些元素都承载着过去的熟悉与慰藉。

Like there's all these touchstone elements of comfort of the past.

然而，每一代管理者都让其营销方式和市场推广与当时的时代背景保持相关。

Yet each generation of managers have made its marketing and the way it's brought to the marketplace relevant for that moment in time.

因此，它既代表了延续与安心，又体现了对未来的相关性与活力，这是一项非常难以平衡的挑战。

So it is both representative of continuity into the path and comfort, yet also relevant and exciting about the future, which is a very hard balancing act to do.

另一个实现得很好的艰难平衡，是它既是全球品牌，又在每个销售国家保持本地化。

The other hard balancing act which has been achieved is to be both a global brand and local in each of the countries it's sold in.

是的，它是一个全球性的标志，显然与美国文化紧密相连，但在世界上大多数国家，人们却视它为一个极具本地特色的品牌。

So yes, it's a global icon, it's obviously heavily linked to being an American icon, but in many countries, most countries in the world, they see it as a profoundly local brand.

因此，一代又一代的管理者不仅保持了其独特而连贯的全球统一性，还成功地使其深深扎根于本地市场。

So again, generations of managers have made it not just maintained a unique coherent global unity, but have also managed to make it profoundly local.

我相信世界上94%的人都认识可口可乐的标志，这可能是全球认知度最高的品牌之一，对吧？

I believe that 94% of the people in the world actually recognize the Coke logo, which is probably one of the highest brand recognitions in the world, right?

如何打造这种标志性的品牌？

How develop do that type of iconic brand?

首先，需要极大的、极大的、极大的一致性。

Firstly, a massive, massive, massive amount of consistency.

我们从未改变过标志。

We have never ever, ever changed the logo.

并非没有设计公司试图诱惑我们做出改变。

Not that the number of design agencies haven't tried to entice us to do so.

虽然标志在1886年就已诞生，但直到1923年左右我们才将其标准化。

Not that it was standardized in 1886, it took us until about 1923 before we standardized the logo.

但一旦标准化后，我们就再也没改过，因为人们学会识别的不仅是文字和声音，还有视觉形象。

But once we standardized it, we never ever changed it, because, you know, people learn to recognize things, not just the words and the sounds, but the visual image.

因此，我们一直保护着可口可乐周围的那种嫉妒、嫉妒感以及所有这些标志性的元素，从未改变过字体，也从未改变过可口可乐一贯的红色。

So we have protected jealousy, jealously, all that iconography around Coke, and never ever changed like the font, and the fact that Coke is red all the time.

我认为，经过这么多年营销和成功，这也是它被如此广泛认可的原因之一。

And I think that, after so many years of marketing and success, is part of why it's so widely recognized.

在盲测中表现最差的品牌之一就是红牛。

One of the brands which has really done the worst on blind tests is Red Bull.

我的意思是，人们真的非常讨厌它。

I mean, people just absolutely hated it.

然而，他们把包装做得更小了，提高了价格，结果它卖得异常火爆。

Yet, they made the boxes smaller, they increased the price, and hey, it's selling incredibly well.

所以，这全部都是关于品牌和联想吗？

So is it all about brand and association?

这关乎一切。

It's about everything.

你体验一种饮料产品时，是用五种感官去感受的。

You experience a beverage product with five senses.

这不仅仅是关于味道。

It's not just about the taste.

包装本身就能让人激烈争论，饮料如可口可乐，究竟是从易拉罐喝最好，还是从玻璃瓶喝最好。

The package it comes with will you can get people to debate heatedly whether a beverage, a Coke is best drank from a can or a glass bottle.

我的意思是，人们对这件事有强烈的意见，而这还没谈到饮料本身。

I mean, have strong opinions on the matter, and that's without talking about the liquid.

这只是他们拿在手里的东西，因为触感重要，气味重要，视觉也重要。

That's just the thing they're holding in hand, because touch matters, smell matters, sight matters.

喝饮料时，一切都重要。

Everything matters when you drink the drink.

所以这些测试，如果你愿意，可以只测试一种感官，但最终决定饮料品牌的是包装带来的整体体验，以及人们头脑中的那些观念。

So these tests, you can test one sense if you want, but in the end it's the package of offenses and the ideas that in people's heads that make the brand of the beverage.

你无法将它们完全拆分开来。

You cannot fully disaggregate them.

一般来说，人们更喜欢味道好的东西，但你无法剥离可口可乐在人们心中完整的心理意象。

Generally speaking, people prefer things that taste good, but you cannot disaggregate the whole mental imagery of what Coca- Fujairah.

你们的广告中经常出现运动员。

Now you often have athletes in your ads.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

人们有时希望与他们熟悉的人产生联系。

People want to connect with people they know sometimes.

我们通常更关注体育或音乐整体，而不是具体的人物。

We generally spend most of our connectivity on the overall sport or music in general rather than personalities.

人物可能会来来去去，但世界杯永远是世界杯。

Personalities can come and go, but the World Cup is always a World Cup.

你知道，我们已经赞助奥运会近一百年了，也是国际足联世界杯的长期赞助商，等等。

You know, we've been doing the Olympics for almost one hundred years, very long term sponsors of FIFA World Cup, etcetera, etcetera.

因此，围绕赛事或活动建立长期平台要容易得多，而不是围绕一个来去匆匆的人。

And so it's much easier to build a long term platform around the property or the event, rather than a person who's gonna come and go.

你们还用圣诞老人作为代言人。

You also use Santa Claus as a spokesperson.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

True.

为什么？

Why?

当你想到可口可乐时，它代表的是快乐、乐观和享受。

When you think of Coke, it's happiness, it's optimism, it's enjoyment.

我的意思是，这些特质与圣诞节期间的氛围非常契合。

I mean, it's a set of things that are very true about the Christmas period.

因此，多年来我们使用了圣诞老人或北极熊作为载体，众所周知，现代圣诞老人形象之一实际上是索姆布隆圣诞老人，顺便说一下，他其实是瑞典人，所以离你很近。

And so over the years, we have used the vehicle of Santa Claus or the polar bears, know, famously one of the modern characterisations of Santa Claus was actually, it's known as the Sombloom Santa, who by the way, he was Swedish, so very near to you.

一百年前，其实有很多版本的圣诞老人，其中圣路易斯圣诞老人是其中一个广为流传的形象。

And there were actually many Santa Clauses in those, one hundred years ago, and the Saint Louis Santa was one characterization that caught on.

这与品牌、一年中的时节，以及人们团聚、共进餐食和庆祝的氛围非常自然地契合。

And it just fits very naturally with the brand and the time of year and people coming together and sharing meals and occasions.

我们换一个话题，谈谈你的分销渠道。

Changing tack a bit and talking about your distribution.

你知道吗？我去过一些连干净饮用水都没有的地方，但你猜冰箱里有什么？

You know, I've been to places where there isn't even clean water, but guess what you find in the fridge?

一瓶可乐。

A Coke.

所以跟我们说说你的分销网络吧。

So tell us about your distribution network.

当然，这个产品几乎遍及世界的每一个角落。

Absolutely, the product reaches almost every corner of the world.

我认为有两个方面非常有趣。

And I think there are two aspects which are very interesting.

第一，出于偶然，而非刻意设计，这款产品能够在相当长的时间内保持绝佳状态。

One, by chance, not necessarily by design, it is a product that survives a decent amount of time in tip top condition.

随着时间推移，产品的品质不会下降。

You don't get degradation of the product over time.

所以它能长时间保持良好的饮用状态。

So it stays in, you know, good drinking order for a very long time.

其次，显然我们创造了需求，而且因为我们秉持着‘链条上的每个人都能赚钱’的理念，所以产品能到达世界的各个角落，因为这里有经济动力推动。

Secondly, obviously we have created demand, and because we've had the philosophy of everyone should make money along the chain, it gets to the far reaches of the world because there's an economics incentive to do so.

实际上，梅琳达·盖茨有一期播客谈到了，我们最终如何帮助盖茨基金会将一些艾滋病药物运送到非洲和一些偏远地区。

Actually, there's a good podcast by Melinda Gates talking about actually how ultimately we ended up helping the Gates Foundation move some AIDS medicine around Africa and some very rural areas.

他们之所以想到可乐，是因为他们觉得：如果可乐能到达每个地方，那我们也能。

And part of the thing that they, the reason they got to Coke was they thought, well, if Coke can get everywhere, we can get everywhere.

但他们后来发现做不到。

But then they couldn't.

他们开始思考：为什么可乐能到达，而我们却不能？

And they were trying to think, well, why does Coke get there and we don't get there?

因为这常常关乎生死。

Because it's often lifesaving.

答案是，链条上的每个人都希望可乐能到达那里，因为他们能从中赚到一点钱。

The answer is, everyone along the chain wants the Coke to get there because they make a bit of money.

经济因素很重要。

Economics matter.

现在你有一个竞争对手叫百事，你可能听说过他们。

Now you have one competitor called Pepsi and you may have heard of them.

他们在挪威拥有非常大的市场份额。

They have a very big market share in Norway.

所以我认为这是百事市场份额最大的国家之一。

So I think it's one of the countries where it has the biggest market share.

为什么百事在一些国家市场份额很高，而在其他国家却不高？

How come Pepsi in some countries have a high share and in other countries they haven't?

简短的回答是，有很多历史原因。

A lot of historic reasons is the short answer.

有些国家他们比我们更早进入，因此占据了历史性的市场份额。

There were some countries where they got to before us, and they have had some historic share positions.

有些国家我们曾经疏忽大意了。

There are some countries where we fell asleep at the wheel.

我认为在挪威销量大的其实是它的零糖版本。

I think the one that's big in Norway is actually the zero sugar version of it.

我们在挪威花了太长时间试图维持TAB的市场份额。

Spent too long trying to hang on to TAB in Norway.

因此，这通常是两个主要类别之一，解释了为什么我们尚未在每个市场都成为市场领导者。

And so that is generally one of the two buckets that characterises where we have yet to become market leader in every single market.

还有一些市场我们还不是市场领导者。

There are a few left that we are not a market leader in.

但总体而言，我们的领导地位每年都持续扩大。

But overall, our leadership position keeps extending each year.

现在来看消费趋势，有哪些趋势呢？

Now looking at the consumption trends, what are the trends?

可以从两个角度看待消费趋势。

So two ways of looking at consumption trends.

一种说法是，它们非常稳定。

One is to say they're incredibly stable.

我向投资界提出的一个观点是，看看饮料行业，首先思考它的稳定性。

One of the arguments I make with the investment community is to look at the beverage industry and think about, firstly, how stable it is.

如果你绘制饮料行业增长率的直方图，中位增长率大概是4%，虽然过去几年可能不是这样，但回顾过去三十年，历史平均是4%。

If you do a histogram of the growth rate of the beverage industry, the median growth rate is let's say 4%, 4%, maybe not in the last couple of years, but let's say historically last thirty years, 4%.

如果它没有增长4%，那也很可能是3%或5%。

And the chances are if it didn't grow 4%, it was three or five.

我的意思是，这个行业不会出现剧烈波动，它非常稳定，这主要是因为饮料属于小额消费，价格只有几美分或几美元，而且是一个由人口驱动的行业。

I mean, this is not fluctuating in wild numbers, it's a very steady industry and that's driven by the fact it's really a small ticket item, beverages are cents or a few dollars, and it's a population driven business.

在发展中国家和新兴市场，这个行业迄今为止尚未充分发展，因此还有很长的路要走。

And the industry is largely as yet uncreated in the developing and emerging markets, so there's a long way to go.

所以首先，从某种意义上说，饮料行业非常稳定，增长平稳，并且前景广阔。

So firstly, actually in some ways, the beverage industry is very stable, it grows at a steady rate, and it's got a long runway ahead of it.

这就是为什么沃伦·巴菲特——你的大股东——会说，一个火腿三明治都能经营可口可乐，对吗？

Is that why Warren Buffett, who is your big shareholder, I think you said that a ham sandwich could run Coca Cola?

我不确定自己是面包还是火腿，也许我只是火腿三明治里的豌豆吧。

I'm not sure I would count myself as the bread or the ham, or maybe the peas in the ham sandwich.

但我认为沃伦喜欢它，是因为一系列非常显而易见的原因。

But I think Warren loves it for a whole set of very obvious reasons.

正如我所说，这是一个稳定的行业。

Like I said, it's a stable industry.

我们是市场领导者，每年稳步扩大份额，并且有着持续增长的长期记录。

We're the market leader, we gain share steadily each year, and we have a long track record of continuing to grow.

我们连续61年提高股息，这使我们成为一种全天候的投资选择。

We had sixty one years in a row of growing our dividend, and that makes us an all weather play.

接下来谈谈人工智能，这当然是现在最热门的话题，我们上次在美国见面时也讨论过。

Moving on to AI, which is really, of course, the hot talk now, and we discussed it when we met in America.

你自己也提到，它正在推动你的一些广告投放。

And you mentioned it yourself, it's been driving some of your advertising.

那么，请告诉我们，你们是如何使用它的？

Now tell us, how do you use it?

首先，除了那些已经用于优化供应链等环节的现有模型之外，我认为下一代人工智能的一个例子是我们将文本AI与视觉AI结合，让普通人能够通过AI系统创作可口可乐的户外广告。

So the first way, I mean, apart from some of the kind of already existing models that kind of optimized for certain things within the supply chain and other ways it's used, I think this next generation of AI, examples, the first thing we did, we got, we married the text AI with the visual AI, and allowed people to make essentially outdoor ads about Coca Cola through the AI machine.

所以他们可以进入系统，选择可口可乐的图片，然后通过聊天AI告诉它，你希望这张图片做什么？

So they were able to go in, pick Coke images and then tell through the chat AI, what did you want the image to do?

我认为获胜作品是一张可口可乐与一只猫在太空中的图片，这类图片数以亿计，这是一场竞赛，收到了数十万份投稿，我们把其中最优秀的作品选出来，展示在纽约时代广场和伦敦皮卡迪利广场，真正让消费者能够自由使用品牌素材和AI技术进行创作。

I think the winner was there's a Coke with a cat in space, like there's zillions of images, so it was a competition, hundreds of thousands of entries, and we put up a whole selection of the best ones in New York Times Square and the Piccadilly Circus on London, and really it was empowering consumers to play with the assets and the AI technology.

因此，你可以清楚地看到AI如何彻底改变内容创作。

So you can clearly see how AI can revolutionize content creation.

事实上，AI已经在我们观看的电影中通过CGI技术发挥作用了，但那主要还是大型场景的电影制作。

The reality is it already is in the movies we watch through the CGI, but that's kind of large set piece movies.

而现在，这种技术正下沉到非常基础的日常层面。

This is coming down to a kind of a very simple terrestrial level.

想象一下，未来不久，你在户外看到的广告，都将由机器自动生成。

Image you see outside on outdoor and not that far in the future on advertising going to be, can be generated by the machine.

这将深刻地改变一切。

And that's going to be profoundly change everything.

我们还在公司内部的云平台上逐步推出一项新功能，把所有内部文档都输入到系统中。

We're also just rolling out internally within our own kind of cloud, basically taking all our internal documents and putting them into the machine.

所以，与其徒劳地在公司里寻找某个东西——当然你永远也找不到，你只需直接问机器：告诉我如何做X。

So instead of hopelessly trying to find something in the company, which of course you never end up finding, you can just ask the machine, tell me how to do X.

而这个X可以是：我该如何向一个能获得公司匹配捐款的慈善机构捐款？

And that X could be, how do I give money to a charity that gets matched by company funds?

我该如何维护果汁生产线？

How do I maintain a juice line?

我该如何做X？

How do I do X?

所有这些都将触手可及。

And all of that is going to be at people's fingertips.

这将提升人们的生产力，因为知识将能即时获取。

So it's going to make people more productive because it's going to make the knowledge more instantaneously available.

你认为能提升多少生产力？

How much do you think you could drive productivity?

我不知道上限在哪里。

I don't know how high is up.

但我清楚的是，我宁愿站在这一波的前沿，而不是后端。

What I do know though is I would rather be on the front end of this than on the back end.

你担心这个吗？

Are you worried about it?

是的。

Yes.

我认为存在许多与技术相关的潜在灾难和问题，无论是不良行为者，还是更具有反乌托邦色彩的结果。

I think there are a lot of general kind of technology related potential disasters, potential problems, whether it be bad actors or, you know, more dystopian kind of outcomes.

显然，从普遍意义上讲，这件事可能会出错；从与我们相关的具体意义上讲，也可能出错。

Clearly there are ways this can go wrong in a general sense, and there are ways it can go wrong in a specific sense related to us.

你知道，有些模型并不一定以追求真相为目标。

You know, some of these models don't necessarily optimise for truth.

它们追求的是参与度和可信度。

They optimise for engagement and they optimise for credibility.

可信度并不等于真相。

Credibility is not the same as truth.

因此，我认为在我们踏上这段人工智能之旅时，你永远不可能理解其背后的数学原理。

And so I think it's very important as we go on this AI journey, you're never going to understand the math behind it.

我的大脑容量不够应付这些。

My brain's not big enough for that.

但你可以理解它是一个优化模型，因此需要质疑它被设定的目标是什么。

But you can understand that it's an optimization model and therefore questioning what are the objectives that it is being set?

它在优化什么？它的参数又是什么？

What is it optimizing for and what are the parameters around it?

围绕它的安全规则有哪些？

What are the safeguard rules around it?

它能在怎样的范围内运行？

What corridor can it operate in?

我认为这些都是关键问题。

I think are critical questions that can be asked.

我们今年夏天会发布一份关于这个问题的期望文档，敬请期待。

We're coming out with an expectation document this summer on this, so stay tuned.

现在，我们转向治理问题。

Now, moving on to governance.

我们最近在年度股东大会上进行了投票，并审阅了你们事先提交的文件。

We recently voted at your AGM, and we looked at the filing that you sent us beforehand.

你们花了整整40页来解释薪酬和薪酬体系。

And you spent a whole 40 pages to explain the salaries and the compensation system.

这真的需要这么复杂吗？

Does it really need to be that complicated?

真的需要这么复杂吗？

Does it need to be that complicated?

也许不需要，但投资者非常希望了解薪酬结构。

Maybe not, but there's a lot of appetite from investors to understand the compensation.

我认为，披露内容对普通投资者来说确实可能过长了，这没错。

And I think rightly so, to have disclosures arguably got too long for the average investor?

但我觉得，投资者理应了解公司内部的激励机制是什么，以及它们在推动什么。

Probably, but I think this idea that the investors should understand what are the incentive systems in place in the company, what are they driving?

归根结底，激励机制确实有效。

Because at the end of the day, incentive systems do work.

当然，它们并不是人们关注的唯一因素。

They're not the only factor that people pay attention to, of course.

还有其他约束机制、其他激励方式，以及人们在公司中获得成功、晋升的其他途径。

There are other guardrails, other incentives, other ways that people derive success in companies, promotions, other things.

但激励机制之所以存在，是因为它们有效，或者至少部分有效，因此投资者应当理解它们旨在强化什么。

But incentives are there because they work, or at least partially work, and therefore investors should understand what they are there to reinforce.

拥有清晰的战略固然很好，但如果激励机制指向了相反的方向，那么包括我在内的投资者就应当感到担忧。

It's all very well as having a clear strategy, but if we had incentives that pointed in a different direction, then investors, including myself, should be worried.

因此，我认为让投资者理解这些机制很重要。

And so I think it's important they understand them.

这种程度的信息披露主要受时代潮流驱动，而不是说39页或41页就一定是正确的页数。

This amount of disclosure is largely driven by the zeitgeist rather than necessarily, I think, 39 or 41 is the right number of pages.

如你所知，作为股东，我们主张首席执行官和董事长的职责应当分离，而你同时担任这两个角色，我们对此投了反对票。

Now, as you know, we as a shareholder advocate that the role of CEO and Chair should be split, and you have both the roles which we vote against.

谁在控制你？

Who is controlling you?

谁在监督你？

Who's overseeing you?

当然，我受到董事会、首席独立董事和投资者的监督。

I'm overseen, of course, by the board and the lead independent director and the investors.

也有很多投资者在密切关注着我。

There are no shortage of investors looking over my shoulder as well.

因此，我们认为对于可口可乐公司来说，将这两个角色合并是正确的选择，因为我们有一位强有力的首席独立董事和一个强大的董事会，而可口可乐是一家规模庞大且非常复杂的公司。

And so we feel that for the Coca Cola Company, combining the two roles is the right answer, because we have a robust lead independent director, and we have a robust board environment in a business that is very large and very complicated.

因此，我们认为在当前阶段，这是最符合可口可乐公司需求的安排。

And therefore, we find that at this moment in time, this is what best suits the Coke company.

这终究是一家规模庞大的企业。

It is ultimately a very large enterprise.

实际上，可口可乐公司的运营具有极高的透明度和可见度，有很多观察者在关注。

There's no real, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of transparency and visibility to what's going on in Coke and a lot of observers.

因此，无论是由首席独立董事、董事会、投资者，还是其他所有分析可口可乐公司的人员，都不可能存在监督缺失的情况。

So it's not like there's an absence of oversight either by the leading independent, or the board, or the investors, or all the other people who analyze the Coke company.

所以我认为，这可能营造了不同的环境，而且我当然也希望大家看看我们的业绩其实也很出色。

So I think perhaps that provides a different environment, and certainly I would invite people to look at the results are good too.

我认为，治理结构已经到位，正如应有的那样，业绩也同样到位，这很好。

So I think the governance is there, as it should be, and the performance is also there, which is good.

但您自己不也是辉瑞公司的董事会成员吗？

But you are yourself a board member in Pfizer?

没错。

Correct.

您觉得自己对首席执行官和董事长有多大影响力？

How much influence do you feel there that you have over the CEO and the chair?

我认为，董事会完全有能力履行其职责，只要它决定这么做。

I feel that the board can absolutely execute its role it so chose to do so.

董事会有一些关键决策，比如资本配置、首席执行官继任，而作为两个董事会的成员，我并不觉得这有什么问题。

You know, there are a set of critical decisions by the board, capital allocation, CEO succession, and you know, being on both ends of the stick, so to speak, between the two boards, I don't feel it's a problem.

好的。

Okay.

你从辉瑞学到的任何东西，现在应用到可口可乐了吗？

Anything you learned from Pfizer that you are applying to Coke?

是的，我加入他们时正值2020年一个非常特别的时期。

Yeah, obviously I joined them at a rather interesting time at the 2020.

我原本以为我们在创新方面已经有所进步。

And I had thought that we had got better at innovation.

但当我看到他们能在不到一年的时间内将疫苗推向市场时，而通常疫苗的研发需要很多年，这个过程确实令人震惊。

But when I saw what they were able to do to bring the vaccine to the market in less than a year, given that it's normally many, many years before a vaccine gets up, was truly a staggering process.

当需求出现、目标明确时，创新能够被迅速调动起来，这一点在辉瑞身上表现得极为出色，也让我在思考我们自身业务时深受启发。

The rate at which innovation can be called forth when you need to, when the focus is there, was firstly incredibly impressive in their case, and I think a source of inspiration to me as I think about our own business.

肥胖问题已经发展到近乎流行病的程度。

Obesity has grown to pretty epidemic proportions.

我认为现在全球有超过十亿人被认定为肥胖。

I think now more than a billion people worldwide are characterised as obese.

你认为我们未来能够降低肥胖率吗？

Do you think we'll be able to reduce obesity rates going forward?

我认为我们能够而且应该在未来降低肥胖率。

I think we can and should reduce obesity rates going forward.

我的意思是，可能几十年前我们就已经超过了全球热量供应超过人类消费的临界点。

I mean, we certainly have, probably happened a few decades ago, gone past the point where there are more calories available in the world than human consumption.

总的来说，在人类历史的大部分时间里，我们一直处于热量略微不足的状态。

Generally speaking, for most of human history, we've had a slight deficit.

现在，我们生产的粮食已经足够了。

Now there's enough food generated.

因此，这绝对需要成为一项整体性的、并且确实已成为政府政策的重点。

So it absolutely needs to be an overall, and it is an overall governmental policy focus.

就像之前的问题一样，我们在这个问题中扮演什么角色？是的，我们确实有责任。

And a bit like the earlier questions like what's our role in it, yes, we have a role.

我们需要确保提供有助于解决这一问题的产品，无论是更小份量的高热量产品、零热量产品，还是通过创新降低产品的热量含量。

We need to make sure we're offering products that help in that sense, whether it be smaller portions of our calorie products or zero products or as we innovate to reduce the calorie profile.

所以这绝对是未来的一部分。

So absolutely it needs to be part of the future.

我们正看到许多政府实施糖税。

We are seeing many governments implementing sugar taxes.

你对这个怎么看？

What is your view on that?

是的，我认为，有几点需要考虑。

Yeah, I think, look, there are a couple of pieces.

税收确实通常会影响需求。

Taxes certainly tend to affect demand.

从我的角度来看，这个问题有两个方面。

The question, I think, would be twofold from my point of view.

一是，这种措施是否有可能实现他们期望的结果？

One is, is the action likely to produce the outcome that they're looking for?

如果目标是减少肥胖，而仅对某一类产品征税，这能有效降低肥胖率吗？

If the outcome is less obesity, there's a very narrow tax on one product category, is it likely to drive down obesity?

你可以去看看全球范围内那些对汽水乃至所有饮品征收糖税的地区，会发现这项政策基本上没有产生实质性的影响。

And you can look around the world where they have the sugar taxes on soft drinks or beverages in general, and find that essentially it hasn't made a material difference.

这个问题需要从更宏观的角度来解决，这是第一点。

The problem needs to be addressed in a much broader perspective, that's point number one.

第二点是，我认为如果在征收税款的同时，还能对创新起到激励作用——

Point number two is I think where the taxes have been put in place that also provide an incentive for innovation, I.

举个例子，也就是实行分级税制：含糖量越高，税额越高；含糖量越低，税额越低。这样一来企业就有动力持续生产口感出色的饮品，同时逐步降低其热量值，就像部分国家的食盐管控在一定程度上取得的成效那样。

E, for example, they're tiered, the more the sugar, the more the tax, the less the sugar, the less the tax, then there's an incentive for companies to continue to provide great tasting beverages but to slowly bring down the calorie profile, as indeed happened to some extent in salt in some countries.

所以我认为，用税收来施压的话，核心其实是要推动创新，逐步引导人们改变饮食习惯——这是一个宏大的议题，需要采取多方面的措施，在我看来这才是政策真正该处理的核心问题。

So I think pressurising things with taxes, really it's about innovation and getting people to change their diets over time, which is a broad topic that needs multi pronged action, and I think that's really a matter for the policy.

你们现在也开始涉足酒精饮料领域了。

You're also moving into alcoholic beverages.

这方面有什么规划吗？

What are the plans here?

对，我们一直都在无酒精饮品和含酒精饮品的交界领域做尝试。

Yeah, we've been experimenting experimenting in the boundaries between the non alcoholic and the alcoholic world.

你知道，随着每个行业的发展，人们都会寻找那些空白领域和最接近的机遇。

You know, as every industry develops, people look for the white spaces and look for the opportunities that are most adjacent.

有一类场合常常将酒精和软饮料混合，比如调制饮品，我们看到了即饮酒精饮料这一领域的机遇，比如预调鸡尾酒、硬苏打水（在美国），或者添加酒精的饮品。

And there are a set of occasions which tend to mix alcohol and soft drinks, mixes, and we see an opportunity in what is called the alcohol ready to drink category, so premixed cocktails, hard seltzers if you're in The US, or spiked version things.

这是一个非常有趣的领域，因为许多这类饮品都利用了我们现有的品牌，如果能以注册形式推出，潜力可能非常大。

And it's a very interesting space because a lot of the drinks in that space leverage our existing brands, and if they can be provided in a registered format, it's potentially very interesting.

目前我们正在推出杰克丹尼和可口可乐的预调混合饮品，我认为观察这一细分市场能发展到多大将会非常有趣。

So we're currently rolling out Jack Daniel's and Coca Cola premixed, and I think that's going to be very interesting to see how big could this segment be.

可口可乐公司并不需要更多的副业，但如果这一领域能成为重要板块，而我认为杰克丹尼和可口可乐将成为引领者，那对我们来说将非常有意义。

We don't need more hobbies at the Coke company, but if this could be a material segment, and I think Jack Daniel's will be, and Coke will be a leading indicator, it could be very interesting for us.

现在，关于这个领域的最后一个问题，你们正在采取措施减少塑料浪费。

Now the last question in this area, you are taking action to reduce plastic waste.

那么，你们具体在做些什么？从长远来看，你们认为什么是可实现的目标？

Now, what are you doing here, and what do you think is achievable here in the longer term?

是的，塑料浪费我认为包含两个方面。

Yeah, so plastic waste, I think, has two components.

我认为，面对所有这些系统性问题，确保每个人都能重新陈述他们的目标并明确他们想要的结果非常重要。

And I think with all these kind of systemic issues, it's important to make sure that everyone can restate their objectives and clarify what is the outcome they want.

我认为，在这里我们不希望环境中有任何浪费，无论是陆地还是海洋，而且最好还能降低碳足迹。

And I think here it's, we don't want waste in the environment, whether that be land or sea, and actually preferably with a lower carbon footprint.

如果我们明确这两个目标，就会发现包装材料的循环经济能够同时实现这两个目标。

If we state those two objectives, what we see is that a circular economy on packaging material can achieve both of the objectives.

因此，我们设定了一个名为‘无废世界’的目标：到2030年，我们所有的包装都将可回收，我们会回收每一瓶或每一罐的销售量，并将其中50%重新用于我们的包装，因为回收的PET通常会被降级利用于其他用途。

So we set ourselves a goal called the world without waste, so by 2030, all our packaging will be recyclable, we'll collect a bottle and can for every one we sell, and we'll use 50% of that back in our own packaging because it often gets down cycled into other uses of recycled PET.

如果我们能做到这一点，就能建立一个在陆地和海洋中都没有废弃物的循环经济，而且回收材料的碳足迹远低于原生材料。

If we can do that, we can create a circular economy in which there is no waste in the land and the sea, and the carbon footprint of recycled material is much less than original.

无论是PET、铝还是玻璃，这三种包装形式只要被收集并回收，都能实现较低的碳足迹。

So whether that be PET, aluminium or glass, all those three formats, collected and recycled, have a low carbon footprint.

因此，这是一个非常有吸引力的目标。

So it's a very attractive objective.

其次，这并不是什么空想的幻想。

Secondly, this is not some blue sky fantasy.

世界上已经有一些国家实现了接近100%的回收率，实际上不少斯堪的纳维亚国家已经做到了。

There are already countries in the world which have almost 100% collection, actually a number of the Scandinavian countries are already there.

世界上也有一些国家，我们出售的PET瓶超过一半是用红血亚麻籽制成的。

There are also countries in the world where over half of our PET bottles are made from red blood flaxseed.

事实上，欧洲许多国家，包括一些斯堪的纳维亚国家，我们销售的所有PET瓶都是用100%再生PET制成的。

In fact, number of countries in Europe, including some of the Scandinavian countries, all the PET bottles that we sell are made from 100% recycled PET.

因此，你拥有一个完全循环的经济体系，从根本上消除浪费，并显著降低碳足迹。

So you have a fully circular economy that basically drives out waste and materially lowers the carbon footprint.

所以，这是一个非常可行的长期目标，而且实现这一目标所需的技术已经存在。

So this is a very doable long term objective, and the technology available to make it happen exists.

当然，通过创新还可以进一步改进。

Of course, can be made better with innovation.

因此，这取决于集体的意愿，而不是需要发明什么新东西。

So it's a matter of collective will rather than something new that needs to be invented.

詹姆斯，我们继续谈领导力。

James, moving on to leadership.

你谈到要做一个真实的领导者，但在一家大型上市公司中，你必须非常谨慎地沟通，这种情况下，一个人又能有多真实呢？

You talk about being an authentic leader, but how authentic can one be when one runs a big public company where you have to be so careful with how you communicate?

我认为，真实和有时保持谨慎或圆滑之间并没有区别。

I don't think there's a difference between being authentic and at times being reserved or being diplomatic.

我私下里可能本来就是这样，所以也许这让我更容易做到。

I've probably been like that in my personal life anyway, so maybe that makes it easier.

但我想，让我这样表达吧。

But I think, look, let me put it this way.

二三十年前，甚至四十年前，你或许可以对员工说一套，对客户说另一套，对投资者又说一套，对媒体再另说一套。

It was probably possible twenty, thirty, forty years ago for you to say one thing to the employees, another thing to the customer, another thing to the investor, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, another thing to the media.

但如今的世界已经变得截然不同，透明度极高。

But this is a radically more transparent world.

所以，首先，如果你意识到最终传递给每个人的讯息必须一致，否则就会彻底出错，那你就可以从这里开始：好吧，根本没必要到处去包装或操纵信息。

So the first thing, if you recognize that the message ultimately needs to be the same to everyone, otherwise it's going to go horribly wrong, you just start there and say, okay, so there's no point in trying to spin everything everywhere.

我只需要告诉人们我的观点，而这个信息本质上对所有人都是一样的。

I just need to tell people you know, what's the point of view, and it's basically the same message for everyone.

然后它必须建立在你的信念之上，因为当一个人随口编造时，这一点再明显不过了。

And then it needs to be grounded in what you believe, because there's nothing more obvious when someone is making it up as they go along.

所以如果你不真诚，人们会立刻察觉到，因此我认为，坚定地认同你所相信的东西、你的战略、你支持的公司和事物，是非常重要的，这样表达起来就会容易得多。

And so if you're inauthentic, people spot it immediately, and so I think it's very important to be grounded in what do you believe in and what strategies, what companies, what things are you bought into, and then it's much easier to represent it.

我认为，如果你并不相信某件事，尤其是知道你必须对所有人说同样的话，那么去代表它会非常困难。

I think it'd be very hard to represent something you didn't believe in, especially knowing you're going have to say the same thing to everyone.

你最想说但又不能说的一件事是什么？

What's the one thing you would love to say which you're not supposed to say?

没什么，因为你知道

There's nothing, because you know

什么？

what?

为什么你会

Why would

我不说任何话？

I not say anything?

不。

No.

我的意思是，我是这样跟别人说的。

I mean, look, I put it like this to people.

有时候人们发现，南方是世界上非常有礼貌的地区之一。

Sometimes people find out the South is a very polite part of the world.

实际上，世界上大多数地方都相当有礼貌且含蓄。

Actually, most parts of the world are quite polite and quite indirect.

当你从足够远的距离纵观世界时，大多数地方都不认为大喊大叫是前进的方式。

When you ultimately stand back far enough on the world, most parts of the world, shouting and screaming is not a way forward.

所以我跟人们说，你们需要能够不同意，但不要咄咄逼人。

And so I say to people, look, you need to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

大喊大叫、满口脏话，也许会让你感觉好一点，但并没有建设性。

Shouting and swearing, it's like that may make you feel better, but it's not productive.

所以你需要找到其他方法。

And so you need to find ways.

是的，你不必同意其他所有事情，但要对这一点提出异议，因为我认为这正是其中的艺术。

Yeah, you don't have to agree with everything else, but disagree with that because So I think that is the art form here.

这并不是要隐藏什么，而是为了沟通以建立联系，而不仅仅是发泄情绪。

It's not about hiding something, it's about communicating to connect rather than just venting.

你该如何以一种好的方式提出异议？

How do you disagree in a good way?

听好了，我们不需要翻出管理学书籍，但关键是与大喊大叫形成对比。

Look, we don't need to whip out the management books, but it's the contrast to shouting and screaming.

所以，让我们进行一场理性的辩论吧。

So it's like, okay, let's it's a rational debate.

说话时，对方坐在桌子对面，希望感受到自己被理解，而不是陷入一堆空话。

Speaking, the other person on the other side of the table wants to feel that they were hurt, you know, without going into mumbo jumbo.

就像说，是的，我明白你在说什么吗？

It's like, yeah, do I understand what you're telling me?

我听到了你说的话，我理解了吗？

I hear what you're saying, do I understand it?

探索他们说了什么以及为什么这么说。

Exploring what they're saying and why they're saying it.

然后能够建立联系，说：好吧，我理解了，这就是我为什么这么说的原因。

And then being able to connect and say, okay, I get that, here's why I'm saying what I'm saying.

这并不意味着你必须同意，你必须能够应对这种紧张和压力——即对方并不认同，但这并不意味着你们无法相互理解和尊重彼此的立场。

It doesn't mean you're going to agree, and you have to be able to cope with the stress and the tension in the situation that they're not in agreement, but that doesn't mean you can't mutually understand and respect each other's positions.

当一名首席执行官最困难的部分是什么？

What's the most difficult part of being a CEO?

成为首席执行官后，有一件事是你之前永远无法意识到的。

There's one part of the CEO that you never find out until you get there.

我怎么描述呢？如果你想象一个组织，就用经典的组织金字塔结构来说，这是一个巨大的金字塔，大多数人认为，你花多年时间一步步往上爬，最终会到达金字塔的顶端，简单来说，组织里的每个人都会向你汇报。

And the way I describe it is, if you think about an organization, let's just use the classic idea of an organizational pyramid, It's a big pyramid, and most people think, okay, you spend your years working your way up the pyramid, and eventually you'll get to the apex of the pyramid, and in a simple way everyone in the organization will work for you.

金字塔中的每一位总经理都有下属，他们也都能看到自己通往顶端的路径。

And every general manager in the job, general manager job in the pyramid, have people working for them but they see their way to the apex.

但当你真正到达顶端时，情况就变得不同了。

But then when you get to the apex, something different happens.

你会发现，还有一个金字塔，只是它是倒过来的。

You find out that there's another pyramid except for it's upside down.

你处在底部，也就是倒置金字塔的顶端，而你上方有数以亿计的人试图向你表达他们的观点，争夺你的时间。

You're at the bottom, at the apex of the upside down pyramid, and above you are zillions of people trying to give you a point of view who want your time.

这种状况在组织里的其他人身上都不会发生。

And that doesn't happen to any other person in the organization.

无论是投资者、媒体还是利益相关者，每个人都有自己的观点，并且都指向CEO。

And whether it's investors, media, stakeholders, everyone has a point of view and directs it at the CEO.

因此，你比组织里的任何人都更加分散，利益相关者也多得多。

So you are much more fragmented and you have way more stakeholders than anyone else in the organization.

当你真正到达这个位置时，会感到非常震惊。

And it's kind of a shock when you get there.

那秘诀是什么？

What's the trick to that?

礼貌地拒绝。

Say no politely.

你如何持续学习？

How do you continue to learn?

我喜欢学习。

I like learning.

我可能正在慢慢变得更传统，因为我更喜欢阅读，而不是听播客或看演讲。

I am probably slowly becoming more old school in the sense that I prefer to read it than to watch a podcast or a talk.

但我也在缓慢地跟上时代。

But I'm slowly moving with the times.

但我必须说，我依然渴望那种从书中获取内容的触感，能够边读边思考，而不是被授课者牵着鼻子走。

But I do have to say I still have a yearning for the tactile nature of getting something from a book and being able to ponder it as you read it rather than being marched along at the pace of whoever's trying to teach you.

最近读了哪些好书？

What good have you read lately?

最近我读了几本书。

I've read a few books lately.

在小说方面，我读了一本叫《克拉拉与太阳》的书，这是一部关于未来机器人与人类关系的小说。

On the fiction side, I read a book called Clara and the Sun, which is kind of an in the future novel about the relationship between robots and us.

这非常不同。

It's very different.

这位作者是日英混血。

It's a Japanese British writer.

在更偏向商业的方面，我通常会选择历史类书籍。

On the kind of more business y side, I tend to go for more of the history ones.

之前读过的几本中，有一本叫《无中生有》，讲的是南海泡沫危机的历史，我推荐给大家。

The last couple I read well before, Money for Nothing, which was a history of the South Sea Bubble Crisis, which I recommend people.

另一本是《金融之王》。

The other one was the Lords of Finance.

因为我觉得，你知道，我非常着迷于这样一个事实：最终，底层的结构性变化总是会胜出。

Because I think, you know, I'm very intrigued and interested in the fact that ultimately, you know, the underlying structural changes, they always win in the end.

事物可能会起起落落，但最终，深刻的结构性因素会占据主导，而这正是这两本书的核心故事。

Things can go up and down, but the profound structural stuff in the end wins out, which was ultimately the story of both these books.

是什么激励着你？

What motivates you?

我有点被使命驱动，因为我真的想做某件事，我必须觉得我真心想做这件事。

I'm kind of mission motivated in the sense of I really want to do the thing, I have to feel like I really want to do the thing.

不管最终是什么事，比如我们认为过去几年让可口可乐重新走上增长轨道，或者我想学会做好某件事。

Whatever that thing ends up being, whether it be, you know, I think we've, for example, put Coke back on a growth trajectory over the last number of years, or I want to learn to be good at X.

我通常一开始会想，这能有多难呢？但当然，你会发现大多数事情都比你想象的要难得多，而且你也不太擅长。

I normally start off with the perspective how hard can it be, and then of course you find out that most things are much harder than you think and you're not very good at them.

但偶尔你会找到一些既擅长又更享受的事情。

But occasionally you find some things that you are both good at and you enjoy more.

它们不必是同一件事。

They don't have to be the same.

享受和擅长之间是一个不一定重叠的文氏图。

It's a Venn diagram that doesn't necessarily overlap between enjoyment and good at.

但我喜欢尝试很多不同的事情。

But I experiment with lots of different things.

我们最近邀请过的纳维达的詹森·黄也提到过这一点，‘这能有多难呢？’

Jensen Huang of Navidea, who we had on recently, also talks about this, how hard can it be?

但他也谈到努力工作，他说，你知道，有努力工作，还有疯狂地努力工作。

But he also talks about working hard and he says, well, know, you have working hard and then you have working insanely hard.

你在这条尺度上处于哪个位置？

Where are you on this scale?

人生是一场马拉松。

Life is a marathon.

你可能会有一段时期疯狂地努力工作，但很难一辈子都保持这种节奏。

You can have periods of working insanely hard, but it's hard to live your whole life at that pace.

所以，我认为，努力工作和疯狂努力工作之间会像钟摆一样来回切换，因为你不可能永远维持下去。

And so, you know, I think the pendulum swings between working hard and working insanely hard because you can't keep it up forever.

人生不是一系列短跑，而是一场马拉松。

Life is not a set of sprints, it's a marathon.

有些人确实比其他人跑得快得多，但你必须学会节奏，尤其是当你成为CEO的时候，我觉得。

Now, some people can run a lot faster than other people, but you've got to pace yourself, particularly when you get to be kind of CEO, I think.

你如何调整自己的节奏？

How do you pace yourself?

你知道，在这一点上我有点欧洲人的样子。

You know, I'm somewhat European in that sense.

就像需要有一些界限一样。

It's like there needs to be some boundaries.

这是一份24/7的工作，但也需要一些休息时间。

It's a 20 fourseven job, but there also needs to be some downtime.

你需要能够抽身离开，不是总要这样，如果有危机，你是唯一能做决定的人，确实24/7都在岗，但你必须能够离开去做点别的事情。

You need to be able to walk away, not always, and if there's a crisis, you're the only person who can decide and it's 20 fourseven literally, but you have to be able to walk away and do something else.

你对年轻人有什么建议？

What's your advice to young people?

我们有很多年轻专业人士在听这个。

We have a lot of young professionals listening to this.

我的第一条建议，或者说主要建议，但附带一个前提，就是找到你真正热爱的事情。

My first piece of advice, or my main piece of advice that comes with a caveat, is find something you really love doing.

有时候人们找工作是因为觉得它能带来地位或金钱。

Sometimes people take jobs because they think it gives them status or money.

但我认为，从长远来看，你更有可能因为做那些让你每天早上愿意起床的事情而取得成功或感到更快乐。

But I feel in the long run, you're likely to rise to the top or be happier doing the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning.

如果你不喜欢自己正在做的事情，从我的角度看，早起并拼命工作的可能性就会降低。

If you don't love what you're doing, the chances of getting out of bed early and working insanely hard just go down in my mind.

当然，随着时间推移，情况会如此。

Certainly do over time.

话虽如此，前提是你需要接受这些选择所带来的一切后果。

Having said that, the caveat is you need to be okay with the choices that it implies.

有时候人们会谈论工作与生活的平衡。

Sometimes people talk about work life balance.

这并不是工作和生活之间的平衡，工作本身就是生活的一部分。

It's not a balance between work and life, work is part of life.

你的生活由一系列事物组成，就像一个百分之百的柱状图。

Your life is composed of a whole set of things and it's a 100% bar chart.

你不可能拥有更多的生活和更多的时间。

You can't have more life and more time available.