文明：与意见相左者对话

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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

以你从未听过的方式，领略简·奥斯汀的智慧、浪漫与魅力。

Discover the wit, romance, and charm of Jane Austen like you've never heard before.

从《傲慢与偏见》到《爱玛》，完整体验六部经典作品的BBC全阵容有声戏剧。

From Pride and Prejudice to Emma, experience all six classics in full cast BBC audio dramatizations.

由大卫·田纳特和本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇主演，这些制作将奥斯汀的永恒世界栩栩如生地呈现出来。

Featuring David Tennant and Benedict Cumberbatch, these productions bring Austen's timeless world to life.

我无法告诉你，你的言语多么令我欣慰，我多么渴望听到这些话。

I cannot tell you how welcome your words are, how I have wished for them.

我最亲爱的伊丽莎白，你真的也爱我吗？

My dearest Elizabeth, can it be true that you love me too?

是真的。

It is true.

在你收听有声书的任何平台，收听《简·奥斯汀BBC广播剧合集》。

Listen to the Jane Austen BBC Radio Drama Collection available wherever you get your audiobooks.

BBC Sounds，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

这是BBC广播四台的《我们的时代》，您可以在BBC Sounds和我们的网站上找到一千多个这样的节目。

This is In Our Time from BBC Radio four, and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find on BBC Sounds and on our website.

如果您向下滚动本期页面，会找到一份相关的阅读清单。

If you scroll down the page for this edition, you'll find a reading list to go with it.

希望您喜欢这个节目。

I hope you enjoy the program.

你好。

Hello.

在某种意义上，礼貌是社会中最宝贵的美德之一。

Civility, in one sense, is among the most valuable virtues in society.

与持不同意见的人讨论对你真正重要的话题，并设法和睦相处的技巧。

The skill to discuss topics that really matter to you with someone who disagrees and somehow get along.

在另一种意义上，当礼貌被用来界定可接受行为的界限时，它可能反映社会最糟糕的一面——只有那些被认为足够文明的人才能获得他们的权利、平等，甚至人性。

In another of its senses, when civility describes the limits of acceptable behavior, it can reflect society at its worst when only those deemed civil enough are allowed their rights, their equality, even their humanity.

正如我们将听到的，文明是一个难以捉摸的概念，自宗教改革以来尤其吸引了哲学家的关注，因为当时关于如何获得救赎的相互竞争的观点似乎使文明的分歧变得不可能。

And as we'll hear, civility is a slippery idea that's fascinated philosophers especially since the reformation when competing ideas on how to gain salvation seem to make civil disagreement impossible.

与我一同讨论文明这一概念的有：利兹大学早期现代史副教授约翰·加拉格尔、谢菲尔德大学历史学教授菲尔·威林顿，以及牛津大学奥里尔学院政治理论教授特蕾莎·比简。

With me to discuss the idea of civility are John Gallagher, associate professor of early modern history at the University of Leeds, Phil Willington, professor of history at the University of Sheffield, and Theresa Bijan, professor of political theory at Oriole College, University of Oxford.

特蕾莎，为了在讨论中始终把握这一点，你能为我们提供一下你心目中文明的最佳定义吗？

Theresa, so that we can hold on to this during the discussion, can you give us your definition of civility at its best?

嗯，即使在最好的情况下，我认为文明也 notoriously 难以定义。

Well, even at its best, I think civility is sort of notoriously difficult to define.

历史上存在多种不同的文明含义，我们无疑会在接下来的讨论中触及其中许多。

There are many different senses of civility that come up historically, many of which we'll no doubt come on to.

但我认为，我们今天所指的文明，是一种特定的社会或对话美德。

But I would define civility, and I think civility as we invoke it today, as describing a particular social or conversational virtue.

它尤其与分歧的实践相关，特别是与那些我们认为在某种程度上具有根本性的问题上的分歧相关——这些问题触及我们的信仰、归属感，真正触及我们与他人之间差异的核心。

And it's one that's pertinent in particular to the practice of disagreement, and disagreement on questions that we consider to be in some way fundamental, as sort of touching on how we believe and belong and really go to the heart of our differences with other people.

因此，与其他常与之关联的对话美德不同，我们可能会认为文明类似于礼貌或谦逊。

So unlike other conversational virtues with which it's often linked, so we might think civility is akin to politeness or akin to courtesy.

我认为，文明的特点在于其最低限度的特性，即社交情境中所要求的最低程度的礼貌，有时甚至体现在其消极层面——即没有侮辱，而非更高要求的行为。

Civility, I think, is distinguished by what we might think of as its minimal character, as the minimum degree of courtesy that's required in a social situation, or even sometimes in its negative character, sort of the absence of insult, as opposed to anything more demanding.

因此，我们可能会将这种意义上的文明称为纯粹的文明。

And so we might think of civility as mere civility in this sense.

它是一种适用于我们与糟糕邻居、前配偶，甚至其他政党或宗教派别成员之间分歧的美德，这些是我们被迫互动的人，但若由自己选择，可能更希望避免接触。

It's the virtue that's appropriate to our disagreements with our bad neighbors, our ex spouses, or indeed sort of members of the other party or the other religious sect, the people that we're sort of constrained to interact with, but maybe if given our own choice, prefer not to.

这真是一个很好的总结。

Well, that's a very good round.

这个词的起源是什么？

What's the origin of the word?

希腊人和罗马人对此有什么看法吗？

Did the Greeks and the Romans have anything to say on this matter?

他们确实有。

They did.

他们确实有。

They did.

一如既往，他们确实如此。

As ever, they did.

因此，英语中的‘礼貌’一词源自拉丁语‘civilitas’，指的是一种良好治理的艺术，或更具体地说，是成为有德行的公民所应具备的行为。

So civility in English derives from a Latin term, so the term civilitas, which referred to a kind of art of good government or more specifically the behaviour becoming a virtuous citizen.

拉丁语中‘公民’是‘cives’。

So the Latin for citizen is cives.

因此，我们看到‘cives’是‘civility’的词根。

So we see that as the root of civility.

‘cives’是‘civitas’（公民社会或国家）的成员。

So cives was the member of the civitas, the civil society or state.

在这种意义上，礼貌是生活在特定定居社区中、在共同政府——尤其是共同法律——下的人们成为良好公民所必需的美德。

Civility in that sense was the virtue necessary for good citizenship of people who are living together in a particular kind of settled community under a shared form of government, and particularly a kind of shared law.

这与希腊语中的‘政治’概念（politicase）并不完全对应，即希腊政治思想中公民的生活，是在一种独特的共同体——城邦——中生活的状态，这是一种自治的政治共同体。

And this corresponds imperfectly to the Greek idea of the political, sort of politicase, so the life of the citizen in Greek political thought, as living in a distinctive kind of community, the polis, as self governing political community.

在希腊思想中，城邦与公民是相对于非希腊的‘野蛮人’来理解的，后者不生活在城邦中，不生活在这些精致的共同体中，也不生活在这些自治而自由的社区中，而是过着一种动荡、野蛮或奴役的生活。

In Greek thought, the polis and the citizen was understood in contrast with the non Greek barbarians who did not live in Polis, who did not live in these subtle communities, who did not sort of live in these self governing and free communities, but rather lived an unsettled, wild, or slavish form of life.

又是野蛮人。

Again Barbarians.

没错。

Exactly.

野蛮人。

Barbarians.

所以，'野蛮人'这个词只是希腊人用来形容那些非希腊人，说他们的语言听起来像胡言乱语。

So barbarians simply is the Greek sort of way of saying that these people who are not Greeks speak a language that sounds like nonsense.

在受过教育的希腊人听来，就像是'巴拉、巴拉、巴拉、巴拉'。

It sounds to cultivated Greek ears like bar, bar, bar, bar, bar.

但即便在这里，我们也能看到，早在古代政治思想中，'文明'不仅被理解为一种最低限度的概念，更是一种对立的概念。

But so even there, we can see going back way into ancient political thought, the civil is understood also in not just in a minimal, but in oppositional sense.

文明是通过与非文明——即野蛮人、野人——相对立来定义的。

The civil is defined in contrast with the uncivil as the barbarian, the savage.

说某人不文明，就是说他们不仅仅是不礼貌。

To say that someone's uncivil is to say that they're worse than impolite.

它意味着这些人可能超出了共享的文明生活方式的范围。

It's saying that they're potentially beyond the pale of kind of a shared civil way of life.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

约翰·加拉格尔，你能带我们大幅前进，跳到十六世纪的伊拉斯谟，谈谈他是如何发展文明这一理念的吗？

John John Gallagher, can you take us a giant leap forward, fume, to Erasmus in the sixteenth century and how he developed the idea of civility.

当然可以。

Absolutely.

因此，鹿特丹的伊拉斯谟是十六世纪早期一位极为重要的圣经和古典学者，也是1517年开启的宗教改革相关辩论中的关键人物。

So Erasmus of Rotterdam is an extraordinarily important biblical and classical scholar of the early sixteenth century and kind of a major figure in debates around the reformation as kind of kicked off in 1517.

他之所以进入我们的讨论，是因为他在1530年出版了一本名为《儿童礼仪》的小册子。

And the reason he comes into our discussion is because in 1530, he publishes a little book called De Civilitate Morum Purilium on the civility of children.

这是一本优美的拉丁文指南，旨在教导儿童如何举止文明，因为任何有小孩的人都知道，孩子本质上是不文明、粗野且动物性的，必须被教化。

And this is a gorgeous little Latin guide that aims to teach children how to be civil because the thing is anyone with small children will know is that they are fundamentally uncivil and brutish and animalistic and they must be civilized.

这本书从孩子出发，试图教导他们基本的礼貌行为，比如吃饭时不要把脏手指伸进公共菜盘，不要在他人面前公然擤鼻涕，让鼻涕溅到别人身上。

So this is a book which takes the child and attempts to teach the rudiments of good behavior from, you know, not putting dirty fingers in the shared dish at dinner, not blowing one's nose publicly around other people so that this snot lands on them.

所以，所有这些基本行为规范，还试图将它们与在一个严格等级化和制度化的社会中如何行事联系起来。

So all of these kind of basic things, but also tries to tie them to learning to behave in a very strictly hierarchized and regimented society.

他们试图教导孩子如何控制自己的身体和言语，以免冒犯上级，也不对下级过于随意。

They're attempting to teach the child what to do with their body and their speech so that they don't offend their betters, so that they aren't overfamiliar with those beneath them as well.

因此，这是一本关于行为规范以及如何

So it's a guide to behavior and a guide to how to

在社会中生活的指南。

live in society.

我们能不能从伊拉斯谟跳到路德？路德似乎完全不重视稳定。

Can we talk about skip from Erasmus to Luther, who seems to have no have had no time at all for stability?

他如何融入我们即将讨论的内容？

How does he fit into what we're going to talk about?

路德越来越拒绝伊拉斯谟等人所倡导的那种礼仪，即言辞应保持在适当和可接受的范围内。

So Luther really is someone who increasingly comes to reject the kind of decorum that people like Erasmus are calling for, this idea that you should keep your words within the bounds of appropriateness and acceptability.

而路德，包括他在对伊拉斯谟的攻击中，非常热衷于侮辱。

And Luther, including in his attacks on Erasmus, is very interested in insult.

他与伊拉斯谟就自由意志和救赎展开了重大争论。

And he is so he's in a major debate with Erasmus around free will and salvation.

他愿意使用侮辱性言辞，暗示伊拉斯谟并非真正的基督徒，称这些言辞虽优美，但思想愚蠢，如同把粪便盛在金银盘子里。

And he is willing to use, insult to suggest that Erasmus is not fully Christian, to suggest that these are fine words but stupid ideas like dung being served on gold and silver plates.

这正是路德的典型风格——引入排泄物和污秽的肉体意象。

And that's classic Luther, that bringing in of excrement on the bodily and of filth.

因为在十六世纪，一方面出现了强调控制身体和动物性功能的文明规范，另一方面却有路德这样的人，彻底抛弃这些规范，用身体功能来攻击魔鬼、教皇以及他所有的敌人。

Because at the same time as you've got codes of civility emerging in the sixteenth century that are about having more control over the body and our animal functions, you've got someone like Luther who's kind of throwing that out and and invoking bodily functions to attack the devil, the pope, and all of his enemies.

他是否将文明视为救赎的敌人？

Is there a sense in which he sees a civility as the enemy of salvation?

我认为是的。

I think so.

在这方面，他实际上建立了一种动态模式，我们在十六和十七世纪的许多宗教改革者身上都能看到。

And in that, he's really setting up a dynamic that we'll see with a number of religious reformers across the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

无论是加尔文对罪人严厉规劝的坚持，还是贵格会创始人乔治·福克斯坚持只用‘你’来称呼他人，拒绝使用任何头衔或贵族称谓，甚至不在教堂或任何庄严场所脱帽致意，都体现了这种精神。

So whether that's with John Calvin and the insistence on admonition of sinners and right up to the Quakers, George Fox, the insistence on only ever referring to people as thou and the the refusal to use titles of authority or nobility, not even doffing one's cap or taking one's cap off in a place of, a place of worship or a place of respect.

因此，我们看到在整个宗教改革期间，这种对文明行为的拒绝，是为了强调救赎更为重要。

So we see kind of throughout the Reformation this refusal of civil behavior, as a way of insisting that salvation matters more.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

菲尔，大约在这个时期，十六世纪，有一本意大利书籍《廷臣》，它当时处于怎样的地位？

Phil, around this time, the sixteenth century, an Italian book, the book of the courtier, how did that fit in?

卡斯蒂廖内的《廷臣》与约翰讲述的关于伊拉斯谟的故事是并行的，我想。

So Castiglione's book of the courtier is a parallel story to the one that John's telling about Erasmus, I guess.

《廷臣》以及当时其他几本意大利书籍，比如斯特凡诺·瓜佐的《文明对话》和《贞洁论》，都很重要。

And the important thing about The Courtier and a few other Italian books at the time by Stefano Guazzo and The Civil Conversation and Della Casta.

它们将特蕾莎所谈论的政治行为重点，转向了更广泛的社交领域。

What they're doing is they're shifting the emphasis on political behavior that Theresa was talking about into the social realm more generally.

文明礼仪被应用于这些对话，并在各种社交互动中得到体现。

And civility is applied to these conversations and demonstrated in conversations in all kinds of social interactions.

卡斯蒂廖内的《廷臣》可能是这一类书籍中的巅峰之作。

And Cast iglione's book, The Courtier is probably the uber book of this genre.

这很有趣，因为他没有用拉丁语写作，也没有简单地翻译像西塞罗那样谈论某些内容的著作并以此传播。

It's interesting because it's rather than writing in the Latin or simply translating say Cicero who talks about some of the kinds of things and propagating it that way.

他用意大利语写成，然后被翻译成欧洲各地的方言。

He writes it in the Italian, and it then gets translated into vernaculars around Europe.

因此，他不仅将礼貌从政治领域转向了社会领域，还将其从拉丁语转向了包括英语在内的俗语，表明即使是绝对精英之外的人也能努力达到这种修养。

So as well as shifting civility from the political to the social, he's also shifting it from the Latin to the vernacular languages, including English, and demonstrating that people beyond the absolute elites can actually strive to achieve it.

因此，这也奠定了早期现代文化中一种重要体裁的基础——行为指南文学，人们通过这类书籍学习如何变得有礼貌，了解各种规则等。

So what you have as well is the foundation of a really important genre in early modern culture of the conduct book literature, which people go to to learn how to be civil, learn the kinds of rules and so on.

特别是其中涉及的技能，不仅仅是规则，还包括对话和行为的技巧，这正是约翰在谈到伊拉斯谟和教育时所强调的。

And skills in particular, it's not just rules, it's skills of conversation and behavior that John's talking about in terms of Erasmus and education.

这成为文艺复兴时期自学精神的关键方面，而自学精神是文艺复兴的重要特征，人们渴望提升和完善自我。

And that becomes a key aspect of Renaissance autodidactism, which is a really important feature of the Renaissance, people wanting to improve and better themselves.

但它确实取得了巨大成功，我知道我们至今仍在阅读它。

But it did have a great success, and I know we still read it.

直到今天，我们仍在大学里阅读它。

We still read it at university these days.

这无疑是欧洲出版和翻译次数最多的文本之一，可以说它与马基雅维利的《君主论》或莫尔的《乌托邦》齐名。

It must be one of the most published and translated texts across Europe of the I mean, it's on a par with the Machiavelli's The Prince or Moore's Utopia, for example.

而且，这也是印刷术普及的时代，因此有更多人识字并能够通过印刷品接触这类材料。

And this is the age popular of print as well, so you have lots more people becoming literate and being able to access this kind of material in print.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，关于行为规范的理念是否传播到了更广泛的社会中？

Did the ideas about behavior spread therefore into a broader society?

这更多是关于礼仪，而不是其他东西吗？

Was it more about manners than anything else?

正如特蕾丝提到的，文明最初源于公民身份和城邦的概念。

I mean, as Therese mentioned, civility starts off in terms of a civic and civitas.

在这一时期，以及此后加速发展，出现了大量机构和制度结构，其中文明行为被视为一种规范。

And, I mean, throughout this period and then accelerating thereafter, you have lots of institutions and institutional structures where civility is expected as a norm of behavior.

因此，行会、公司、贸易公司、律师学院、大学等，都期望人们遵守这些文明标准。

So guilds, corporations, trading companies, inns of courts, universities, they all expect these standards of civility.

当然，所有经过这些机构的人——主要是男性——都会学到这些期望。

And of course, all the people, the men mostly, who are going through them will learn those expectations.

我们

We

现在我们可以谈谈托马斯·霍布斯了，他在这一论点中很有影响力。

can come to Thomas Hobbes now who's influential in this argument.

特蕾莎，我能先请你来谈谈他吗？

Can I turn him on you first, Theresa?

当然。

Yeah.

绝对可以。

Absolutely.

在我深入探讨霍布斯关于文明乃至更具体的粗鲁行为的论点之前，或许先将它与约翰提到的伊拉斯谟和路德的讨论联系起来会更有帮助。

And before I maybe get into the specifics of Hobbes' arguments about civility and actually more particularly incivility, it might be helpful just to connect it to the Erasmus and Luther discussion that John was bringing up.

我的意思是，伊拉斯谟对宗教改革问题的诊断，并非仅仅认为它是新教神学的问题，即路德批评天主教正统教义这一点，对伊拉斯谟而言并非如此。

I mean, so Erasmus' diagnosis of kind of the problems of the Protestant Reformation is not that it's simply a problem of Protestant theology, the fact that Luther is criticizing Catholic Catholic orthodoxy for Erasmus.

关键是路德以这种故意不文明的方式进行攻击，不仅对反对他的人——比如他的同修和修士——进行辱骂，甚至对教皇本人也如此，称教皇为敌基督，称所有追随他的人为反基督者。

It's specifically that Luther is doing it in this deliberately uncivil way, hurling insults not only at those who disagree with him, you know, his fellow monks and friars, but even the pope himself, calling the pope the antichrist, and anyone who follows him an antichristian.

因此，一个世纪后，霍布斯在思考和平问题以及我们如何在城邦或国家中共存时，他是在英格兰内战的背景下进行思考的，而霍布斯将这场内战视为一场宗教战争。

And so Hobbes, a century later, when he's thinking about the problem of peace and how we coexist in a civitas or state, he's thinking about this in the context of an English civil war, which Hobbes viewed as a religious war.

霍布斯深受这种伊拉斯谟式分析的影响。

Hobbes was very much persuaded by this kind of Erasmian analysis.

问题不在于清教徒与英国国教徒在英国教会治理方式上的分歧，而在于他们以这种故意轻蔑和侮辱的方式进行争辩。

The problem isn't the fact that Puritans disagree with Anglicans about how the Church of England should be governed is that they do so in this deliberately contemptuous and insulting way.

他们彼此辱骂，不仅针对对方，还针对他们合法的君主。

They hurl insults at each other, not just at each other, at their lawful sovereign.

而这样做，他们腐蚀了使和平成为可能的那些脆弱而微妙的社会纽带。

And in doing so, they corrode the tenuous or fragile social bonds that make peace possible.

因此，在他的各种政治哲学著作中，霍布斯实际上将不文明——特指侮辱或他所说的傲慢——诊断为和平的主要障碍。

So in his various works of political philosophy, Hobbes actually diagnoses incivility the specific sense of insult or what he calls contumely as a major obstacle to peace.

以至于他甚至提出了一条自然法的基本准则：任何人都不得辱骂或嘲讽他人，也不得以仇恨或轻蔑的方式说话。

So much so that he actually posits as a fundamental law of nature that no man shall revile or deride another or speak in a hateful or contemptuous way.

但霍布斯认为，仅仅不互相侮辱并不足以实现和平生活。

But Hobbes doesn't think that in order to live peacefully or it'll be enough for us just not to insult each other.

他认为我们实际上需要更进一步。

He thinks that we actually need to go further.

因此，在他的拉丁文政治哲学著作《论公民》中，他描述了他所谓的‘公民精神’。

So in his work of Latin political philosophy called De Quive or of the Citizen, he describes what he calls the animus quilis or civil spirit.

他将这种精神定义为：个人不仅愿意在有争议的问题上保持沉默，即简单地不对宗教问题相互争执，还愿意服从主权者所规定的宗教正统观念。

And this he defines as the willingness of individuals not only to observe a civil silence on controversial questions, so simply not disagreeing with one another about religion, but also their willingness to conform themselves to whatever the sovereign says should be the orthodoxy, in religion.

因此，这是一种‘同意达成一致’，霍布斯将这种态度理解为真正意义上的‘文明’或‘具有文明精神’。

So it's agreeing to agree, and this is what Hobbes understands by sort of being civil or being civil in spirit.

为了和平而达成一致。

Agreeing for the sake of peace.

是的。

Yes.

他追求的不就是和平吗？

It's peace that he's after, isn't it?

当然。

Absolutely.

和平是他追求的伟大目标。

Peace is the great thing that he seeks.

没错。

Right.

通过文明，我们将获得和平。

And through civility will get will give you peace.

正是如此。

Precisely.

因此，在霍布斯的政治哲学中，文明实质上是与暴力相对的和平，正如霍布斯著名的自然状态图景——所有人对所有人的战争。

And so civility in Hobbesian political philosophy is really about the civil as the peaceful, in contrast with the violent, in that famous kind of Hobbesian picture of the state of nature as the war of all against all.

为了和平共处，霍布斯认为，我们不仅不能互相侮辱，连分歧本身也是问题所在。

So in order to live together peacefully, we not only must not insult each other, Hobbes thinks that disagreement itself is the problem.

正如他在《论公民》中所说，分歧本身即是冒犯。

As he says in Des Quivet, the mere act of disagreement is offensive.

因此，为了和平共处，我们最好把宗教分歧排除在外。

So in order to live peacefully, we better get religious disagreements off the table.

好的。

Okay.

约翰，在十七世纪，人们有一种感觉，认为文明可能只是表面的，仅仅是礼貌或良好的举止。

John, say in the seventeenth century, there's a feeling that civility could be superficial, could be mere politeness or good manners.

你能跟我们讲讲这个吗？

Can you tell us about that?

当然。

Absolutely.

从十六世纪文明话语的最早阶段，一直到十七世纪，一直存在着一种挥之不去的担忧，即文明不过是虚伪而已。

So from really the earliest stages of civility discourse in the sixteenth century and all the way through the seventeenth, there's this niggling fear that civility is just plain hypocrisy.

人们对践行文明与礼貌的人提出了指责。

And there are accusations against those who practice civility and courtesy.

有人指责他们只是阿谀奉承者，这在讨论政治结构时也会发生。

There are accusations that they are simply flatterers, and this happens when we're talking about kind of political structure as well.

还有一种观点认为，文明是一种伪装，是一种说谎，它隐藏了你真实的想法和真实的自我。

There is also this idea that civility is dissimulation, that this is a kind of lying, that it is to hide what you really think and to hide what you really are.

还有一系列担忧认为，文明是一种艺术，它在内在与外在之间制造了无法调和的张力。

There's also a set of concerns about civility as this art that creates this impossible tension between the inward and the outward.

许多为文明辩护的作家表示，实际上，文明之所以有效，正是因为它的外在表现反映了内在的真实。

And a lot of writers defending civility say, well, actually, you know, civility only works as an outward performance because it reflects what's on the inside.

但它的批评者会说，实际上，文明只是表面装出来的，因为你内心早已腐烂透顶。

But its critics will say, well, actually, because the, you know, civility is is just putting this on because you're kind of rotten all the way down.

因此，伪装、不诚实和虚伪这些指控不断被抛向文明。

So dissimulation, dishonesty, and falsehood are kind of being accusations that are lobbed at civility constantly.

然而，另一件确实发生的事是，英格兰人认为文明是一种令人担忧的外来事物。

And the other thing that does happen, though, is that civility in England is seen as something that's worryingly foreign.

我们已经看到卡斯蒂廖内是如何被引用的。

So we've seen how Castiglione is used.

你知道，卡斯蒂廖内的著作是从意大利传过来的。

You know, Castiglione's book comes over from Italy.

在整个十七世纪，英格兰人越来越推崇的文明行为模式是法国式的。

Over the course of the seventeenth century, the models of civil behavior that are increasingly popular among the English are French.

从十六世纪晚期开始，文明绅士因过于意大利化而受到攻击，他们更倾向于拔出长剑与你决斗。

And you see from the late sixteenth century where civil gentlemen are attacked for being Italianate, and they'd sooner kind of draw a rapier on you and enter into a duel.

到了十七世纪后期，他们成了花花公子，被法国化，伪天主教徒，以及伪装成专制主义者。

By the later seventeenth century, they're fops, they're Frenchified, they're pseudo Catholic, and and they're absolutists in disguise.

因此，这也对国家认同构成了威胁。

So it's a danger to national identity as well.

对霍布斯而言，文明的虚伪恰恰是其关键所在。

For Hobbes, the hypocrisy of civility is precisely the point.

它成为一种富有德性的虚伪与顺从，使文明生活成为可能。

It becomes a kind of virtuous hypocrisy and conformability that makes civil life possible.

而且它而且它

And it and it's

再深入剖析一下。

not unravel that a bit more.

那么，霍布斯基本上认为，你看，我们无法控制人们的想法。

Well, so Hobbes basically thinks, look, you know, we can't control what people think.

毕竟，思想是自由的。

Thought after all is free.

在我们个人的头颅之内，我们的思想可以肆意驰骋，无论多么污秽、亵渎还是崇高，都可以。

Within the confines of our individual skull, our thoughts can roam over anything, filthy, profane, sublime, whatever.

但我们可以控制的是如何将这些思想外在表现出来。

But we what we can control is how we manifest those thoughts outwardly.

因此，对霍布斯而言，文明的美德恰恰在于它规范了我们的外在行为，尤其是在宗教崇拜中的表现。

So for Hobbes, the virtue of civility is precisely is that it governs the outward performance of our especially in the performance of worship in religion.

他认为，你可以在心里相信任何东西，但当涉及到崇拜上帝或尊重主权者时，你必须将私人信念服从于公共准则。

He thinks, believe whatever you want in your mind, but when it comes to worshiping God or worshiping or respecting the sovereign, you must conform your private to the public conscience.

在这种情况下，霍布斯在内战期间安全地待在流亡巴黎的王室宫廷中，这并非偶然，也不是巧合。

And it's not incidental in this case, or not a coincidence, that Hobbes, when he so he spent the civil war basically safely with the the royal court in exile in Paris.

当他回到伦敦时，人们认为他具有可疑的法国化特征。

When he returns to to London, people think him suspiciously Frankified, Frenchified character.

他说话带着法国口音。

He speaks English with a French accent.

因此，他似乎是一个崇尚文明的人，拥抱了一种法国式的浮华、专制和宗教上的虚伪伪装。

And so he seems to be a civilitarian embracing a kind of French foppery and absolutism and hypocritical dissimulation in religion.

宗教。

Religion.

你觉得这里存在一个悖论吗，菲尔？

Do you think there's a paradox here, Phil?

宽容可能会变成对那些不认同宽容之人的不容忍。

Tolerance can become intolerance of those who don't go along with tolerance.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，文明和宽容在这一点上显得更单薄了。

I mean, civility and tolerance is slimmer in that respect.

你如何让那些不愿文明的人变得文明？

How do you make people who don't want to be civil, civil?

那你怎么让那些不愿意宽容的人变得宽容呢？

And how do you make people who don't want to be tolerant, tolerant?

约翰和特蕾莎对17世纪中期的论述非常有趣，我认为稍微

And it's very interesting what what John and Theresa are saying about the mid seventeenth century because I think slightly

你刚才提到内战之后吗？

So you talked about after the civil war?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，同样的问题，不同的群体在应对，他们也转向了文明作为解决方式。

So it's the same kind of issues and the same problems that a different group of people are responding to, and they they turn to civility as a way of doing it as as well.

在某些方面，这与霍布斯的观点也非常互补。

And it's very complementary in some ways to to Hobbes as well.

霍布斯也被认为是无神论者，因为他如此轻视人们的内在灵性与热情等等。

Hobbes, think, is regarded as an atheist in his position as well because he's he's so dismissive of people's inner spirituality and enthusiasm and so on.

但即使在1648年，你也能看到像爱德华·鲍尔斯这样全面的长老会信徒，他们意识到这些巨大的紧张与分歧，正是这些分歧引发了英国、爱尔兰乃至欧洲的严重冲突。

But what you what you have even in, say, in 1648, you have comprehensive Presbyterians, if you wanna call them like that, someone like Edward Bowles, who is aware of these huge tensions and these huge differences that have caused this these massive conflicts, not just in in Britain and Ireland, but also in Europe.

他运用了谨慎的概念，这可以说是 civility（文明礼仪）的自我克制在宗教上的某种适应形式，并敦促他的长老会同僚在一切交往中保持谨慎，斟酌自己的言辞，考虑他人及其信仰，并尽可能包容他人。

And he applies the concept of circumspection, which is a kind of religious adaptation, if you like, of the self control of civility, and and pleads with his fellow Presbyterians to be circumspecting all their dealings and so on, and think about their words in relation to other people and other people's faiths and accommodate other people as much as possible.

到了1660年复辟时期，爱德华·鲍尔斯因这种包容立场而成为复辟后教会中下一任高级神职人员的热门人选。

And when he comes to restoration in in 1660, Edward Bowles is one of the favorites to actually become the next senior dignitary, if you like, in within the re the restored church because of this comprehensive position.

不幸的是，他去世了。

Unfortunately, he dies.

但有一群主教被称为‘宽宏派’，他们持有类似的观点：只要在基本教义上达成一致，比如三位一体或上帝存在等，就可以在无关紧要或中立的问题上持有不同意见。

But there's a there's a group of bishops called they get to be known as the latitudinarians who have a similar sense of as long as you have an agreement over the fundamental points of doctrine such as, I don't know, the trinity or there's a god and so on, you can disagree about insignificant or indifferent things.

事实上，回到约翰提到的伊拉斯谟，一位重要的宽宏派人物是吉尔伯特·伯内特，他后来成为威廉三世到来时的随行牧师。

And it's really interesting actually going back to what John was saying about Erasmus is that one of the leading latitudinarians is Gilbert Burnett, who ends up becoming the chaplain to William of Orange when he comes over.

但威廉·伯内特于1684年翻译了《乌托邦》。

But William Burnett translates Utopia in 1684.

《乌托邦》的作者托马斯·莫尔是伊拉斯谟的挚友。

Utopia is obviously Thomas More who writes Utopia is a very good mate of Erasmus.

这正好发生在路德及其路德宗对文明礼仪发起冲击之前。

This is just before Luther and the Lutheran onslaught on civility.

但在乌托邦中，正如伯纳德所说，人们享有宗教宽容，只要他们遵守一些核心信条，且不走上街头用武力或煽动手段强迫他人改变信仰。

But in utopia, and this is what Bernad's saying, you have religious toleration in the sense that people can believe exactly what they want as long as they comply with some central tenets, and as long as they don't go on the street and try and convert people by force or use demagogue to persuade them to change their faith.

因此，这是一种近乎回溯性地将维拉斯莫式的文明理念引入17世纪90年代宽容派立场的做法。

So there's this almost retrospective grabbing of of this Virasmean civility, bringing it forward into the latitudinarian position in the sixteen nineties.

以你从未听过的方式，发现简·奥斯汀的智慧、浪漫与魅力。

Discover the wit, romance, and charm of Jane Austen like you've never heard before.

从《傲慢与偏见》到《爱玛》，体验全部六部经典作品的全阵容BBC有声戏剧化演绎。

From Pride and Prejudice to Emma, experience all six classics in full cast BBC audio dramatizations.

由大卫·田纳特和本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇主演，这些制作将奥斯汀永恒的世界栩栩如生地呈现出来。

Featuring David Tennant and Benedict Cumberbatch, these productions bring Austen's timeless world to life.

你的话多么令我欣慰，我多么渴望听到这些话。

I cannot tell you how welcome your words are, how I have wished for them.

我最亲爱的伊丽莎白，你真的也爱我吗？

My dearest Elizabeth, can it be true that you love me too?

是真的。

It is true.

在您获取有声书的任何平台收听简·奥斯汀的BBC广播剧合集。

Listen to the Jane Austen BBC radio drama collection available wherever you get your audiobooks.

我是不是该退回去一两步？

I go back a a step or two?

内战在这一方面是否彻底改变了现状？

Did the civil war change things radically in this respect?

你点头了。

You're nodding.

是的。

Yes.

我认为变化巨大。

I think massively so.

正如特蕾莎提到的，你看到公民对话已经崩溃，出现了像《墨丘利烟熏》这样充满侮辱和粗俗语言的出版物，议会军士兵甚至把裸体炸弹放在祭坛上亵渎圣物，诸如此类的事情层出不穷。

So you've got, you know, as Teresa has mentioned, you've got this way in which civil discourse has broken down, where you've got kind of obscene publications like Mercurious Fumigosis, which is kind of larded with insult and profanity, where you've got parliamentarian soldiers desecrating altars by placing their naked bombs on them, all this kind of thing.

这种情况一直在发生。

So this has been occurring.

但在1660年，保王派理查德·阿尔斯特里写了一本名为《绅士的职责》的书，他从这样一个原则出发：这一切都是关于重建，因为绅士风度和社会等级已经彻底崩溃。

But you also have a sense, you know, in 1660, the royalist Richard Alstree writes a book called The Gentleman's Calling, and he starts from the principle that this is all about reconstruction, that you've had such an utter collapse of gentility and of social hierarchy.

从1660年复辟开始，这种等级制度必须以某种方式重建，而一种虔诚的文明举止或许就是实现这一目标的方式。

And from 1660, the restoration onwards, that hierarchy has to be rebuilt somehow, and a form of godly civility might be the way to do that.

但他指出，平等主义原则，以及傲慢贵族所犯下的种种罪恶与过失，已经摧毁了英格兰原有的等级制度。

But he says, you know, the leveling principle, but also all of the the crimes and sins of a puffed up gentry have demolished the hierarchy as was in England.

如今，所有忠诚的保王派都有责任从零开始重建它，找到一种文明、诚实的方式，回归到人们所向往的旧有秩序和社会等级。

And now it is the role of all good royalists to rebuild it from scratch, so to find a way of being civil, of being honest, but in a way that returns to a kind of dreamt of status quo and a kind of a social hierarchy as it was beforehand.

我以为你想说点什么。

I thought you want to say something.

是的。

Yes.

只是，你知道，著名的复辟时期诗人安德鲁·马维尔，他对那些导致这种严重不文明行为的主教们最大的指责——即他们不为其他教派留出空间，也不倾听其他声音——就是说他们粗鲁。

It's just, you know, Andrew Marvell, the famous restoration poet, his biggest insult or criticism that he could make at the bishops who were responsible for this profound incivility in terms of not making space for other denominations and not making listening to other voices was that they were rude.

因此，在复辟时期，‘粗鲁’是一种极为严厉的批评。

So rude is a severe criticism in the restoration period.

你们随时可以自己讨论这些观点。

Just take these points up between you whenever you want play.

那么我们来谈谈关于文明与宽容的问题。

So to go to the question about civility and toleration.

我们在这里描绘的图景是，十七世纪英格兰那些倡导普遍文明的人，通常都是反对宗教宽容的，广义上来说。

So the picture that we've been painting here is of those who are appealing to civility in general in the seventeenth century in England are those who are opposed to religious toleration, sort of broadly construed.

他们的观点是，如果我们允许人们公开就宗教问题产生分歧，那么不可避免地，我们将不仅陷入一场言语战争，用路德式的侮辱和下流图像互相攻击，而这一切都得益于印刷术这一伟大的传播技术。

The idea is that if we permit people to disagree publicly about religious questions, questions, then inevitably, we will descend not only into a war of words in which we hurl Lutheran style insults and scatological images at each other using this great advancement in communications technology, the printing press.

而从那里，再往前跨一步、跳一下，就会演变成全面的内战。

But from there, it's but a hop, skip, and jump to the all out destruction of civil war.

这是霍布斯的观点，尽管很少有人会公开承认同意霍布斯的这一看法，但我认为这几乎是一种共识。

That's the Hobbesian picture, and although few people would admit to agreeing with Hobbes on this, I think this is really almost a kind of consensus view.

一个文明的社会不可能同时也是一个宽容的社会。

You cannot have a civil society that is also a tolerant society.

但在十七世纪，我们本以为最同情路德的人——那些热情的福音派清教徒——其中一些人开始意识到，如果他们想为自己争取宽容，就必须重新夺回文明。

But what happens in the seventeenth century is that people that we might expect to be the most sympathetic with Luther, these evangelical hot Puritan Protestants, a few of them begin to see that if they are going to be able to claim toleration for themselves, they're going to have to sort of reclaim civility too.

在这方面，最有趣的人物之一是一位名叫罗杰·威廉姆斯的激进新教徒，他是霍布斯的同时代人，尽管名气较小。

And so one of the most interesting people in this regard is a hot Protestant called Roger Williams, who's sort of a very close contemporary of Hobbes, although a more obscure figure.

他从一个被周围几乎所有人的视为极端不文明的人的视角来思考文明。

He is theorizing civility from the perspective of someone who is seen by almost everyone around him as paradigmatically uncivil.

他是一位福音派新教徒，不断指责他人是教皇敌基督的追随者，控诉他们崇拜魔鬼等等。

He's an evangelical Protestant who's constantly calling people followers of the papal Antichrist, accusing them of worshiping the devil, etcetera, etcetera.

但他是在北美的英国殖民地、边疆地区这样做的。

But he's doing so in the British colonies of North America on the colonial frontier.

他在罗德岛。

He's Rhode Island.

没错。

Absolutely.

今天，如果罗杰·威廉姆斯还有人知道的话，人们通常认为他是罗德岛殖民地的创始人，这个殖民地后来成为罗德岛州。

So Roger Williams is known today, if he's known at all, as the founder of the colony of Rhode Island, which becomes the state of Rhode Island.

实际上，威廉姆斯因为对马萨诸塞湾的其他清教徒过于不文明，最终被他们在寒冬中驱逐出境。

And effectively, what happens with Williams is he is so uncivil to his fellow Puritans in Massachusetts Bay that they end up banishing him in the dead of winter.

他仅靠当地原住民部落的款待生存下来，即纳拉甘西特人和万帕诺亚格人。

And he survives only through the hospitality of the local Native American tribes, so the Narragansett and the Wampanoag.

因此，威廉斯发现自己处于一种略显尴尬的境地：他意识到，实际上，新英格兰荒野中那些非基督徒的异教居民，比马萨诸塞湾的基督徒同胞更具文明素养。

And so Williams finds himself in this sort of somewhat uncomfortable position of realizing that actually there is more civility among the unchristian pagan inhabitants of the New England wilderness than among his fellow Christians in Massachusetts Bay.

这促使威廉斯提出了一种后来在约翰·洛克那里再次出现的论点，即社会不仅能容忍基督教的各种派别，甚至能容忍非基督教的宗教。

And this leads Williams to pioneer an argument which we'll later see again in John Locke, which is effectively to say society can tolerate not just varieties of Christianity, but it can tolerate even sort of non Christian religions.

对威廉斯而言，他认为最异教的犹太人、穆斯林，甚至天主教徒——反基督者——都行，毕竟他本人属于路德宗。

For Williams, he thinks the most pagan ish Jewish or Mohammedan consciences, even Catholic anti Christians, remember, he's a kind of Lutheran.

他相信，即使天主教徒追随反基督者（记住，他是路德宗信徒），只要保持文明的纽带，也能和平共处。

He sort of believes that Catholics follow the Antichrist, can live together if they but keep the bond of civility.

最终，当宽容在十七世纪末取得胜利时，正是基于这样一个观念：一个人可以不做一个‘虔诚的基督徒’，却依然保持文明。

And ultimately, when toleration triumphs by the end of the seventeenth century, it's with this idea that one can be civil without being a kind of good Christian.

我们能转到洛克这里吗？

Can we move to Locke here?

同样的论点，我们在洛克1689年发表的著名《论宽容》中也能看到。

So that same argument, we see it in Locke's famous letter concerning toleration published in 1689.

因此，洛克实际上说，问题不在于宗教多样性。

So Locke effectively says, look, it's not religious diversity that's the problem.

问题不在于人们在这些根本性问题上存在分歧，并在宗教领域争论和竞争。

It's not the fact that people disagree on these really fundamental questions and sort of argue and compete with each other in the domain of religion.

问题在于他们以违反文明行为准则的方式进行这些争论。

It's that they do so in a way that violates this code of civil conduct.

他们以不文明的方式进行这些争论。

They do so in an uncivil way.

因此，他说，如果人们在争论中能保持文明的温和态度，我们就能在宗教上和平共处。

So he says, if men will just keep the softness of civility in their disputes, then we can peacefully coexist together in religion.

因此，洛克的宽容理念不如威廉斯的那么广泛，但他仍然说，坦率地说，作为人与人之间的正常交流，无论是异教徒、穆斯林还是犹太人，都不应因宗教差异而被剥夺公民权利。

And so Locke, his toleration is not quite so extensive as as William's is, but he nevertheless, he says, you know, if we may speak frankly as becomes one man to another, neither pagan nor Mohammedan nor Jew should be restricted in his civil rights on matters of just because of differences in religion.

你想让我评论吗？

Do want me comment?

嗯。

Yeah.

香蕉拉姆说，问题不在于你做了什么。

Banana Ram have said it's not what you do.

而在于你怎么做。

It's the way that you do it.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

关键是分歧的方式，而不是事实本身。

It's the manner of disagreement, not the fact.

而且

And

有趣的是，就在洛克在这一背景下理论化宽容与文明的同时，他也像伊拉斯谟一样，撰写了关于儿童与教育的著作。

it's quite neat that at the same time as Locke is kind of theorizing toleration and civility in that context, he's also much like Erasmus writing on children and education.

因此，他在《教育漫话》中写道，这是现代史上最具有影响力的教育文献之一，在北美及其他地区影响深远。

So he writes in his Some Thoughts Some Thoughts on Education, which is one of the most influential educational tracts of the modern era, huge in North America and elsewhere.

他对文明行为的繁文缛节持怀疑态度，但即使洛克在持这种怀疑的同时，也敦促父母送孩子去学习舞蹈，因为他认为这是学习身体仪态的最佳方式——你必须能够像伊拉斯谟在一个世纪前主张的那样，准确地展现身体上的文明。

He is skeptical about maybe the the fripperies of civil behavior, but even Locke, at the same time as he's got that skepticism, urges parents to send their children to dancing masters because he says that that is best way to learn the carriage of the body, that you simply need to be able to perform bodily civility in the exact same way that Erasmus was arguing over a century beforehand.

文明是否变成了一种你必须追求、享受并参与才能被社会接受的东西？

Did did civility became something that you had to pursue and enjoy and join in order to be accepted in acceptable society?

当然。

Absolutely.

因此，文明以及文明的语言在整个社会中传播，并贯穿整个近代早期。

So civility and the language of civility disperses throughout society and across the early modern period.

所以如果你

So if you

我们说的是哪个年代？

What what late dates are we talking about?

整个16世纪和17世纪都是如此，但如果你开始查阅教会法庭纠纷的记录——也就是教区层面的争执，比如村民们之间的争吵，

So throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth century, but if you start to look at the records of church court disputes, so kind of parish level disputes, people having, you know, barneys in villages.

在17世纪初，人们就已经开始使用‘文明’和‘不文明’这样的语言了。

In the early seventeenth century, they are already using the language of civil and uncivil.

我的邻居对我行为极其不文明。

My neighbor my neighbor has behaved in a most uncivil way towards me.

她是个极其不文明的女人，意思是她不诚实，也不贞洁。

She is a most uncivil woman, meaning that she's not honest, that she's not chaste.

正如菲尔所提到的，十七世纪期间，出现了大量教授如何举止文明的手册和书籍市场。

And there develops this market across the seventeenth century, as Phil mentioned, for manuals, for books that will teach you how to be civil.

但这些书籍开始渗透到社会的各类层面和各个方面。

But they start to kind of penetrate all kinds or all aspects of society.

你可以学会做一个文明的店主。

So you can learn to be a civil shopkeeper.

你可以学会做一个文明的室友。

You can learn to be a civil housemate.

你可以学会做一个

You can learn to be a

公务员。

civil servant.

谁教你？

Who teaches you?

谁在给你这种教育？

Who's who's giving you this learning?

因此，有各种各样的人撰写这些手册。

So there's a wide variety of people writing these manuals.

例如，威廉·斯科特写了一篇关于服饰的论文，旨在教导商人和店员这种行为方式。

So for instance, you'll get William Scott writes an essay of drapery, which aims to teach merchants and shopkeepers this kind of behavior.

汉娜·伍利同时为女仆和淑女撰写著作。

You'll get Hannah Woolley writing for serving maids and gentlewomen at the same time.

因此，普通的作家们找到了一种方式，向全社会传授文明礼仪。

So regular working authors are finding a way to teach civility across the board.

如果你在学习一门新语言，你的拉丁语语法书中会包含如何举止得体的内容。

If you're learning a new language, your Latin grammar will contain material on how to act civilly.

如果你进行壮游，或者进行教育性旅行，这同样也是一种文明礼仪的教育。

And and if you go on the grand tour or if you go and undertake educational travel, that too becomes an education in civility as well.

菲尔，这时候有没有很多反对文明行为的证据？

Phil, is there much evidence of a reaction against civility at this point?

你可以采取许多立场或选择各种社交方式，但你有希腊的模式，比如哈托里亚和科摩斯，它们是高度仪式化且极具攻击性的男性醉酒形式，在17世纪初被英国士兵和特权青年群体采纳，他们在酒馆等地制造混乱，这些观念和仪式化行为往往是在欧洲大陆旅行期间学到的，并伴随着战争。

There's plenty of positions you can take or forms of sociability you can adopt, but you have Greek models like the Hattoria and the Comos, which are very ritualized and quite abusive, masculine forms of drunkenness, which be get taken up in the early seventeenth century by English soldiers and and groups, privileged young men who are causing havoc in taverns and so on, often learning these ideas and these ritualized behaviors abroad on the continent and fighting the wars.

你还有享乐主义的理念，比如去酒馆，参与闲聊，通常又是醉酒，或者‘良好友谊’，这是另一种行为类别，你并不一定遵循文明行为的规范。

You have ideas of making merry, where you would go to the ale house and you would engage in banter, usually drunkenness again, or good fellowship, that's another kind of category of behavior, where you wouldn't necessarily conform to rules of civility.

再往后，你还会看到一些更具哲学意味的立场，比如放荡主义，阿尔弗雷德·贝恩是其诗人代表，而罗切斯特是核心人物，他们更刻意地以意识形态的方式表现出不文明或反文明的态度。

And then you have more philosophically, probably engaged positions a bit later, like libertinism, which Alfred Bain is the poet of I suppose, Rochester is the central figure and they are more deliberately uncivil or anti civil in a kind of ideological way.

因此，承接这一点并明确指出我们之前讨论中许多内容所隐含的含义：文明行为作为一种文明举止或文明对话的美德，以有趣的方式结合了平等与等级的元素。

So picking up on that and making sort of explicit something that's been implicit in a lot of what we've been saying, civility as a code of civilized conduct or kind of virtue of civil conversation combines elements of equality and hierarchy in interesting ways.

因此，我们被期望遵守这种文明准则，以便进行一种在自由和平等者之间发生的、没有支配性的对话。

So we are meant to abide by this code of civility so as to have the kind of conversation that can take place between those who are free and equal, a conversation that is absent domination.

但在这样做时，我们也被要求根据自己在现有社会等级中的地位，顺应等级化的行为规范。

But in doing so, we're also expected to conform ourselves to the hierarchical codes of behaviour on the basis of our place within status quo.

因此，在性别考量方面，这一点尤为明显。

And so this is really clear in the case of considerations of gender.

因此，这个时期最彻底的无礼之人，或者说不文明的典范，就是女性先知，她们不仅坚持基于与上帝的直接联系而发言，而且以与女性应有的温顺、沉默这一文明理想相悖的方式进行表达。

So another example of the consummately uncivil person, or maybe let's say the paragon of incivility in this period, would be the female prophet, who insisted not only on speaking on the basis of her direct line to God, but doing so in a way that was at odds with the feminine ideal of civility as exhibiting a kind of comely, in feminence, silence.

对吧？

Right?

我现在想继续往下谈。

I'd I'd like to move forward now.

是的。

And Yes.

从你开始，约翰，我们刚才讨论的这种文明观念是如何演变为文明理念的呢？

Starting with you, John, how did this civility we've been talking about slip into ideas of civilization?

嗯。

Yeah.

所以，在十六和十七世纪，文明是你可以引导人们达到、也可以将人们降低到的一种状态。

So, you know, civility is for people in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, something that you can bring people to, that you can reduce people to civility.

因此，从很早开始，它就成为了一种支配的工具和语言，即野蛮与文明之间的对立。

And so for very from very early on, it becomes a tool and a language of domination, and this idea of the barbarous against the civil.

例如，在爱尔兰，随着英国人在爱尔兰的存在，爱尔兰人被描述为野蛮、粗鲁，需要被教化以达到文明。

So we have in Ireland, for instance, with the English presence in Ireland, the Irish are characterized as barbarous and rude and needing to be brought to civility.

因此，我们看到了像埃德蒙·斯宾塞这样的人。

So we get this with people like Edmund Spencer.

很明显，粗野狂野的爱尔兰人需要被驯服，被带入文明与 civility。

It's very, very clear that the rude and wild Irish need to be tamed brought to civility and to civilization.

同时，当我们看到英国定居者在爱尔兰遭遇大屠杀时，这被视为 civility 的崩溃与失败，尤其是种植园本应带来的新教文明的失败。

And, you know, when we have massacres, for instance, of British settlers in Ireland, that's seen as being a collapse and a failure of the civility that and the Protestant civility the plantation was meant to bring in.

与此同时，或在十七世纪初，随着英国在北美的影响力扩大，你也能看到这种语言的输出。

At the same time or around the same time at the beginning of the seventeenth century with the growing English presence in North America, you see the same exporting of this language.

因此，在弗吉尼亚公司早期的通信中，以及切萨皮克地区的存在中，你都能看到用粗鲁、野蛮和野性来描述原住民美国人。

So you see in kind of early communications around, for instance, the Virginia company and and the presence in in the Chesapeake and around, you see the language of rudeness, of barbarity, and of savagery being used to describe indigenous Americans.

哈？

Horizah?

只是想同意约翰的观点。

Just to agree with John.

我的意思是，'文明'这个概念以及'文明'这个词实际上是在十八世纪和十九世纪才出现的。

I mean, the the idea of civilization, the term civilization really comes in kind of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

但从一开始，就像我之前提到的，希腊人将政治生活与野蛮人的生活对立起来。

But from the beginning, and when I was talking earlier the sort of Greek sense of political life as opposed to the life of a barbarian.

人们有一种观念，认为未开化的人是粗鲁的、无序的、暴力的、黑暗的、迷信的，所有这些特质。

There's this sense that the uncivil is rude, unruly, violent, dark, superstitious, all of these things.

所有这些反义词都涌现出来，塑造了'文明人'相对于'非文明者'的理想形象。

And all of these antonyms come in and inform the ideal of the civil person over and against those.

我们可以将这视为文明或文明话语的阴暗面。

And we can think of this as maybe the kind of the dark side of civility or civility talk.

诉诸文明，总是会唤起一种需要压制或排斥'非文明他者'的幽灵或可能性。

To appeal to civility is always to kind of raise the specter or the possibility of needing to suppress or exclude the uncivil other.

我想我之前用过'化外之人'这个说法来形容那些未开化的人。

I may have used, I think I used the phrase earlier beyond the pale to describe the uncivil person as beyond the pale.

这是一个非常富有深意的短语，因为它源自拉丁语中的'围栏'或'木桩'。

It's a really suggestive phrase because it derives from the kind of Latin palace stake or fence.

所以，那些超越界限的人就是生活在围栏之外的野蛮人。

So the person who's beyond the pale is the barbarian living beyond the fence.

当然，在天主教爱尔兰的情况下，人们认为那些野蛮、原始的天主教爱尔兰人生活在 Anglicized 的、文明的新教都柏林的界限之外。

And of course, in the in the case of Catholic Ireland, it was the idea that the sort of savage Irish barbaric Catholic lived beyond the pale of sort of Anglicized, civilized Protestant Dublin.

我的意思是，我们到目前为止还没怎么讨论过‘文明对话’这个概念，它是一种文学体裁，一种学习交往技巧的工具，同时也是一种与你有严重分歧的人进行互动的模式。

I mean, I think I think one of the things we haven't talked about so much is the the idea of the civil conversation, which is a kind of literary genre, a learning tool of the skills, but also a kind of formula for how you can engage with people who you have serious disagreements with.

我的意思是，从约翰刚才谈到的爱尔兰和早期美洲的情况来看，文明最粗暴的误用之一，就是奴隶制体系，而文明观念在将黑人变为奴隶财产并如此对待他们的正当化过程中起到了作用。

And I mean, one of the probably the grossest misapplications of civility, just going on from what John was saying about Ireland and the early Americas, was this the slavery complex and the fact that civility played into part of the justifications of why we could turn black people into chattel property and so on and treat them so in

你能再多说一点吗？

Can you say a bit more about that?

以文明作为正当化理由，支持这种关联，并推动了巴巴多斯、加勒比地区以及后来美洲奴隶经济的发展。

With civility as a justificatory point for that kind of nexus and the development of the slave economies in Barbados and in The Caribbean and then in over in America as well.

回到‘文明对话’这个概念，它由加斯蒂廖内的意大利同乡瓜佐在十六世纪引入俗语，你就会发现一位名叫托马斯·特里翁的人，他是一名糖商，很早就参与并牵涉到奴隶贸易中。

So going back to this idea of the civil conversation, which Guazzo, one of Castiglione's Italian compatriots, introduces into the vernaculars in the sixteenth century, you find this guy called Thomas Trion, who's a sugar trader, so involved in and complicit in the slave trade at an early stage.

然而，他在1684年写了一篇《一位埃塞俄比亚奴隶与其基督教主人之间的文明对话》。

Nevertheless, writing this in sixteen eighty eighty four, a civil conversation between an Ethiopian slave and a Christian, his master.

你会发现，这位奴隶主导对话并遵循文明对话规范，成功说服了基督教主人，让他们认识到对奴隶的待遇是多么非人道、多么不文明、多么残酷，并指出通过对话可以实现非废除但有所改善的结局。

And what you find is that the enslaved person leading the discussion and following civil conversation norms is able to convince and show the Christian master that how inhumane and how uncivil and how brutal the treatment of the slaves has been and how they can reach a point of not abolition but amelioration based on their conversation.

因此，在如此早期的年代，完美的文明对话却被应用于最不完美的、可以说是最扭曲的文明实践之中。

So you have perfect civil conversation being applied to the most imperfect, if you like, application of civility under quite an early date.

我认为，重新学习这种技能非常重要。

And that's, I think that's an important skill to relearn.

我的意思是，威廉姆斯是个非常有趣的人物，因为他集中体现了我们所讨论的种种文明话语。

I mean, this idea, Williams is such an interesting figure because he encaps encapsulates all these different discourses of civility we've been talking about.

文明相对于野蛮或野性，文明相对于暴力，文明也代表了伦敦那种都市商人式的生活方式，因为他是一位伦敦商人裁缝的儿子，而且

So the civil as opposed to the barbarous or savage, the civil as opposed to the violent, and the civil as kind of the way of life of the urbane sort of merchant in London, because he's the son of a merchant tailor born in London, and who

他是约翰·弥尔顿的朋友。

speaks Friend of John Milton.

他是约翰·弥尔顿的朋友，精通多种语言，正是这种语言能力让他掌握了纳拉甘西特语。

Friend of John Milton speaks myriad different languages, and it's precisely his facility with languages that allows him to master Narragansett language.

因此，他在1643年的第一部著作被称为《美洲语言钥匙》。

So his first publication in 1643 is what's called The Key into the Language of America.