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我是朱莉·安德鲁斯，非常荣幸为您带来简·奥斯汀故事集，这是Noiser播客网络的全新节目。
I'm Julie Andrews, and it is my great pleasure to bring you Jane Austen stories, the new show from the Noiser Podcast Network.
我将为您朗读《傲慢与偏见》。
I'll be reading Pride and Prejudice.
我们将漫步宏伟庄园，与盛装淑女共进下午茶。
We'll walk grand estates and take tea with well dressed gentlewomen.
但在这宁静的英格兰一隅，并非所有事物都如表面所见。
But in this tranquil corner of England, not everything is quite as it appears.
欢迎在任意播客平台收听简·奥斯汀故事集。
Listen to Jane Austen stories wherever you get your podcasts.
你好。
Hello.
我是西蒙，《我们的时代》的制作人。
I'm Simon, producer of In Our Time.
在梅尔文宣布卸任主持近27年的《我们的时代》后，我们正通过精选档案库中最受欢迎的节目来致敬他的杰出工作。
Following Melvin's announcement that he's stepped down from In Our Time after almost twenty seven years, we're taking the time to celebrate his outstanding work with some favorite episodes from our archive.
未来我们将以新节目和新主持人回归，但现在为您呈现去年听众最爱的这期内容。
In due course, we'll return with new programs and a new presenter, but now we have this listener favorite to offer from last year.
有请梅尔文。
Here's Melvin.
你好。
Hello.
当华尔兹于十九世纪初传入英国时，它彻底改变了舞蹈与音乐在我们社会中的角色，打破旧习并催生新风尚。
When the walls reached Britain in the early nineteenth century, it revolutionized the role of dancing and music in our society, fracturing old ways and giving rise to new.
尽管如今看来颇为正式，但正是其不拘礼节与大胆作风使其风靡一时，情侣们相拥旋转于舞厅，随着《蓝色多瑙河》的旋律翩翩起舞。
While it may seem formal now, it was the informality and daring that drove its popularity with couples holding each other as they spun around the room to the Blue Danube.
很快，这些墙壁在诗歌、芭蕾、中篇小说和音乐中扩展了创意世界，这些音乐既非纯粹古典也不低俗，而是流行化的。
And soon, the walls expanded the creative world in poetry, ballet, novellas, and in music that was neither exclusively classical nor vulgar, but popular.
与我一同探讨这些墙壁的是牛津大学英语文学荣休教授苏珊·琼斯、利兹大学音乐学荣休教授德里克·斯科特，以及罗汉普顿大学舞蹈历史与民族志荣休教授特蕾莎·巴克兰。
With me to discuss the walls are Susan Jones, Emeritus Professor of English Literature at the University of Oxford Derek Scott, Professor Emeritus of Music at the University of Leeds and Theresa Buckland, Emeritus Professor of Dance History and Ethnography at the University of Roehampton.
特蕾莎，您能否为我们明确说明华尔兹的起源？
Theresa, can you give us some clear idea of the origins of the waltz?
当然，要准确追溯任何流行舞蹈的起源都非常困难，但我们知道在欧洲文艺复兴和巴洛克时期，已有多种旋转舞和双人舞形式，即男女共同旋转。
Of course, it's very difficult to pinpoint the origins of any popular dance, but we know that during the Renaissance and the Baroque period in Europe, there were several turning dances, couple dances, a man and a woman turning together.
但直到十八世纪中叶，我们才开始越来越多地看到关于华尔兹舞者和德雷亚舞者的记载。
But it's not until the mid eighteenth century that we start to get more and more references to dancers such as Walzer and Dreya.
这些记载主要来自德语地区。
And these are mostly in the Germanic lands that we hear about them.
这些舞蹈后来有时被贵族采纳，有时被拿破仑战争后返回英国的士兵传播。
These dances then are taken sometimes by aristocrats, sometimes by soldiers returning from the Napoleonic Wars to Britain.
到十九世纪第一个十年结束时，华尔兹已经扎根并持续流行，实际上已渗透到整个社会各阶层。
And by the end of the first decade of the nineteenth century, the waltz had arrived and was here to stay and it actually permeated throughout the whole of society.
在此之前，上流社会的主要礼仪舞蹈是小步舞。
Prior to this, the main ceremonial dance in high society was the minuet.
在那种舞蹈中，人们是并肩站立——
And in that, people stood side by side I.
即
E.
男女并肩而立，在地板上勾勒出复杂的图案。
A man and a woman stood side by side and they traced elaborate patterns on the floor.
而华尔兹的革命性在于男女舞者转为面对面，然后以自身为轴旋转，虽然自身顺时针转动，却在舞厅中沿逆时针方向行进。
And the revolutionary aspect of the waltz was that the man and woman turned to face one another and then they spun round on their own axis, going clockwise but progressing anticlockwise around the ballroom.
因此这完全是革命性的突破。
So this was totally revolutionary.
他们不仅面对面，还相互拥抱。
They not only faced each other, they held each other.
他们紧紧相拥，有时甚至紧到让牧师和道德评论家都感到不适。
They held each Very Very closely, sometimes a bit too closely for the likings of pastors and moral commentators.
但这确实是个革命性的举动。
But it's such a revolutionary move.
事实上，这常被称为身体范式的转变。
In fact it's often been referred to as a shift in body paradigm.
从某种程度上说，什么
In a way What
意思是指什么？
does it mean by that?
身体范式是指整个运动方式的转变，人与空间及他人之间肢体关系的全面革新。
Body paradigm is the shift of the whole way of moving, whole corporeal relationship to space and to other people.
由此诞生了一大批被称为圆舞者的新舞者。
And from that, a whole new realm of dancers came out, were known as round dancers.
这类舞者数量众多，不仅有华尔兹，后来还出现了波尔卡和马祖卡舞者。
And there were lots of these dancers, not just the waltz, there was later followed by the polka and the mazerka.
圆舞者盛行了整整一个世纪。
And there's a whole century of these round dancers.
但华尔兹是最早也最经久不衰的。
But the waltz was the first and the most stable.
那么特蕾莎，你能描述下跳华尔兹是什么感觉吗？
So Theresa, can you describe what it's like to dance the waltz?
华尔兹种类繁多，但19世纪的主流是所谓的旋转华尔兹，即
There are lots of waltzes, but the main one in the nineteenth century was what was known as the rotary waltz, I.
旋转式
E.
旋转环绕。
Revolving around.
舞者在两小节音乐中踏出六步。
And in that the dancers took six steps over two bars of music.
当然华尔兹的关键在于它是三拍子节奏。
And of course the key thing about the waltz is that it's in triple time.
所以是一、二、三，二、二、三。
So it's one, two, three, two, two, three.
在这段时间里你已经完成了一个完整的旋转。
And in that time you've done a whole circle.
但同时你们也在舞厅中不断行进。
But at the same time you're progressing around the room.
这种感受当然取决于音乐。
And the sensation depends of course on the music.
通常如果是快节奏，你会很容易喘不过气来，这是一种非常令人振奋的感觉。
And the sensation typically if it's fast you can get easily out of breath and it's a very exhilarating feeling.
但如果音乐较慢，当然会有更多梦幻般的感觉，一种迷失在自己空间中的体验。
But if the music's slower of course there's more of a sense of dreaminess, dreamy quality, a sense of being lost in your own space.
但事实上这对舞者被锁定在自己的空间里，这正是华尔兹的革命性之处。
But of course the couple was actually locked into their own space and that's the radical aspect of the waltz.
谢谢。
Thank you.
还有德里克，德里克·斯科特。
And Derek, Derek Scott.
早期华尔兹就与日耳曼世界紧密相连。
From early on the waltz was associated with the Germanic world.
最初确实如此，华尔兹与德国舞蹈密不可分。
At first, yes, the waltz very much associated with the German dance.
德国舞蹈对英国人来说通常意味着华尔兹。
Often the German dance meant to waltz to the British.
但让我着迷的是，在19世纪20年代，当约瑟夫·兰纳和老约翰·施特劳斯登上舞台时，我们迎来了一种与华尔兹相伴的革命性音乐风格。
But what intrigues me is that the eighteen twenties when Joseph Langer and Joseph Strauss the elder come on the scene, then we have a revolutionary style of music that goes with the waltz.
在老约翰·施特劳斯手中，新事物的出现创造了19世纪娱乐音乐与艺术音乐（或称严肃音乐）之间的鸿沟。
And in the hands of Johann Strauss the father, new things happen which create the chasm that then opens up in the nineteenth century between what is seen as entertainment music and what is seen as art music or serious music.
此外还有民间传统音乐。
And there's also the folk traditional kind of music.
但现在我们有了第三种音乐类型。
But now we have this third type of music.
如果没人反对我唱几句示范，我可以展示老约翰·施特劳斯的一些创新手法。
And if no one objects to my singing examples, I I can give you an idea of some of the new things that Johann Strauss senior did.
例如他的华尔兹《故乡之声》是这样开始的。
For example, his waltz Heimat Klinger, the sounds of home begins.
这个音符在音乐中被称为导音。
Well, that note is known as the leading note in music.
Re本应解决到La。
Da should go to la.
但Ti这个音会把我们带回Do。
It's the note tea which will bring us back to do.
然而他处理成Re Re Re Re Re Re Re
But now he goes da da da da da da da.
音阶向下坠落。
He falls downward.
这在当时被认为是非常非常不寻常的。
This was regarded as very, very unusual at the time.
事实上，它后来被称为'维也纳特色音'，在英国则被称为'维也纳音符'。
In fact, it became as known as the Veneriscia Nota or in England, the Viennese note.
他很快对音阶的第六度音la也做了同样的处理。
He soon does the same with the sixth degree of the scale, the la.
如果我引用小约翰·施特劳斯的《蝙蝠侠》中的例子。
If I quote from Johann Strauss, the younger, Di Fledermauss.
那个音符本应向下解决。
That that note should resolve downwards on.
他就这样让它悬而未决。
He leaves it hanging like that.
这成为了新流行风格的标志，严肃的艺术音乐家都会避开那个音符。
That becomes a marker of the walls and of the new populist style that if you're a serious art musician, avoid that note.
最后是伴奏部分。
And finally, the accompaniment.
这在老约瑟夫·兰纳和小约翰·施特劳斯之前非常罕见。
That was very rare before Joseph Lanna and Johann Strauss the elder.
事实上，如果你在舒伯特晚期作品中听到这种手法，八成是因为他听过兰纳或施特劳斯的作品。
In fact, if you hear the papa in late Schubert, you'd bet that it's because he's been listening to Lanner or Strauss.
你能解释音乐和舞蹈的结合吗？
Can you account for the the combination of music and the dance?
我是说，它们看起来天生一对。
I mean, they seem made for each other.
是谁让它们如此契合？
Who made them for each other?
当然，施特劳斯本身就是技艺高超的舞会小提琴手。
Well, of course, Strauss was a very proficient dance violinist.
所以他深谙这种风格。
So he's very immersed in the style.
施特劳斯和兰纳曾一起演奏。
Strauss and Lanner played together.
兰纳获得了宫廷管弦乐团指挥这一最佳职位，并为宫廷舞会演奏。
Lanner got the the the the really the the best job of being the leader of the the court orchestra and playing for the court balls.
但当约翰·施特劳斯与莱诺分道扬镳后，他成功转型为维也纳中产阶级的舞厅演奏。
But Johann Strauss, when he argued with Leno's split up, made his way successfully in playing for dance halls for the middle class in Vienna.
他对如何吸引观众有着异常敏锐的洞察力。
And he saw what was he was very alert to what was going to attract audiences.
必须承认，他如此敏锐的动机有一半是为了赚钱。
And it has to be said that half of the reason he was alert was he wanted to make money.
这个动机让很多人都变得敏锐，不是吗？
Well, it makes many people alert, doesn't it?
你语气中的惊讶让我也感到意外，
I think the surprise in your voice which Well, surprises me,
我确实有点清教徒性格。
I I do have a puritanical nature.
苏珊，能请你来说说吗？
Can we go to you, Susan?
你有音乐方面的见解。
You have the music.
好的。
Yeah.
最初是谁在跳这种舞？后来又是如何在整个欧洲大陆传播开来的？
Who was dancing it in the first place and then why did it sort of spread across the plane?
这是由宫廷赞助的，我们谈论的是奥匈帝国时期。
It was sponsored by the court and we're talking about the Austro Hungarian Empire here.
没错。
Yeah.
当然，著名的维也纳会议正是各国齐聚解决拿破仑时代终结问题的历史时刻。
And of course, famously the Congress of Vienna is a moment when nations are coming together to solve the problem of the end of the Napoleonic era.
白天进行了大量外交活动，而夜晚的华尔兹则成了一种放松方式。
And a lot of diplomacy was going on during the day and a lot of waltzing was a kind of relief at night.
所以你能见到各种身份的外交官。
So you were getting diplomats in all sorts of people.
当然这种风气也会向下层社会蔓延。
And then of course it spreads to further down the chain.
但它同时也与狼交配中淫荡放荡的一面相关联。
But it's also associated with the lascivious, the rather racy side of the wolf coupling.
当它是
When it's Are
你是暗示淫荡入侵的一面只存在于下层社会吗？
you suggesting that the lascivious and invasive side is only when you go down the chain?
我完全没有这个意思。
I'm not suggesting that at all.
比如拜伦勋爵就认为这种现象始终存在。
I think, for example, Lord Byron was one who thought that it was there all the way through.
所以在英国，你知道，这确实带有某种道德谴责的意味。
So when it comes to England, you know, you're really dealing with I mean, okay, it's been it has a kind of moral opprobrium attached to it.
但汉诺威王朝的君主们也承认这是可行的，因为他们乐在其中。
But at the same time, it is acknowledged by the Hanoverian monarchs that this is doable because they like doing it.
而且很快就会变得令人难以抗拒，不是吗？
And it becomes irresistible very quickly, doesn't it?
确实非常令人难以抗拒。
It becomes very irresistible.
你使用'难以抗拒'这个词很有趣，因为简·奥斯汀在《爱玛》中描述狼群聚会时也用了同样的词，这种聚会往往能促成浪漫的结合。
And it's interesting you use that word irresistible because that's exactly what Jane Austen's narrator in Emma talks about the wolves when they're going to have a gathering which is hopefully going to generate some kind of romantic coupling.
有人正在演奏那令人难以抗拒的狼之曲。
And somebody's playing the irresistible wolves.
奥斯汀在这里使用这个特定词汇的方式非常有趣。
It's very interesting the way Austen uses this particular word here.
它的影响力似乎超越了舞蹈领域，延伸到了其他艺术形式。
Seems to its influence seems to spread outside dance and into the other arts.
是的，我认为特别是与拜伦相关，比如他在1812年写了一首著名的华尔兹讽刺诗。
Yes, I think it particularly in with relation to Byron, for example, who famously wrote a satire on waltzing in 1812.
他于1813年发表这首诗，后来却极力与这首讽刺诗保持距离。
He published it in 1813 and then really distanced himself from this satire.
他给这首长诗赋予了一个叙事声音，来自一位绅士农民或乡绅，霍勒斯·霍恩汉姆。
He gave the poem, it's the long poem, a narrative voice by one gentleman farmer or gentleman, a yeoman, Horace Hornham.
他担心自己的女儿们参与这种活动。
And he's worried about his daughters engaging in this.
拜伦某种程度上为文学界对华尔兹的回应定下了基调。
Byron kind of sets a certain tone for the literary responses to the waltz.
我认为特别之处在于，他在诗中引用了歌德的《少年维特的烦恼》，这部作品在整个文学革命时期极具影响力。
Particularly, I think, because he introduces into the poem a reference to Goethe's 'Werter' which was extremely influential throughout literary revolutions.
哦，《维特》，想想看，确实影响非凡。
Oh, Werther, think, was extraordinarily influential.
那个结束自己生命的年轻人。
Young man who took his own life.
这种焦虑感在拜伦引用维特时显现出来，他实际上引用了维特关于狼群的描述。
And this kind of anxiety comes out in Byron's reference to Werther, where he actually cites Werther's reference to the wolves.
他和洛蒂在一起时，几乎有种灵魂出窍的奇妙体验。
He and Lottie are getting together and having this amazingly out of body experience almost.
他说：我感觉自己不再是人，这非常
He said, I feel I'm not human, which is an extraordinary
这是他跳舞时说的吗？
Was this while he was dancing?
我想是的。
I guess it was.
我们并不确切知道歌德当时在想什么。
Well, we don't know exactly what Goethe was thinking of there.
我认为这是一种让身体超越肉体限制的转移概念。
I think that's the idea that there's a kind of transportation of the body beyond the body.
苏，我认为你说得对，这种脱离自己身体的感觉，进入另一个世界的体验。
I think that's true, Sue, that this idea of being out of your own body, the sense of entering another world.
但在最初几年，华尔兹曾遭到很多反对，后来却成为了十九世纪的主流舞蹈。
But in the initial years there was a lot of antagonism towards the waltz but it then became the staple dance of the nineteenth century.
它非常重要且历久弥新，至今仍在跳，但当时是舞厅的主要舞蹈。
It was so important and it lustered well it still dances today but it was the main dance on the ballroom.
顺序是华尔兹、方舞、方舞、华尔兹、华尔兹、华尔兹。
It went waltz, quadrille, quadrille, waltz, waltz, waltz.
到了世纪末，几乎就只剩下华尔兹了。
By the end of the century it was almost as though there was nothing other than waltz.
问题是到了世纪末，年轻人确实开始对它感到非常厌倦。
And the problem was by the end of the century of course was that young people were getting very tired of it indeed.
厌倦了
Tired of
是厌倦还是累坏了？
it or tired by it?
可能两者都有，因为到世纪末时，军乐队成了主要的音乐提供者。
Probably a bit of both, because by the end of the century, the military bands were the main music providers.
他们作为专业音乐家显然对这类音乐感到乏味，想要更多活力。
And they, obviously as professional musicians got bored with the music and they wanted a bit more pep and go into it.
所以他们加快了一切节奏。
And so they sped everything up.
这当然让年轻人很高兴，但旁观的老一辈却不这么认为。
And of course that delighted the young people but not the old people who were watching.
当时有很多关于舞厅里行为不检的投诉。
And there was lots of complaints about rowdyism in the ballroom.
能否请您详细说说，为什么在您看来父母和社会保守派会对此感到担忧？
So can you just tell us a little bit more in your view why there was what you alluded to this worrying side for parents and the more stayed in society that this was taking over.
很明显，这关乎年轻男女的近距离接触。
Well obviously it's about young men and young women being in very close proximity.
他们常在仅靠烛光照明的舞厅里跳舞，可能会溜出去进行不正当活动。
They're dancing very often in ballrooms which are lit only by candlelight and they might sneak off and get up to illicit activities.
您想发表看法吗？
Do you want to comment?
首先我要说，拜伦所反感的早期华尔兹与1820年代后期的华尔兹很不同。
Well, first of all I would say that the earlier waltz, when Byron gets annoyed about the waltz, different to the waltz of the later eighteen twenties.
华尔兹经历了很大变化。
The waltz changes a lot.
是的，最初的担忧确实来自面对面和手部接触。
And, yes, at first, the worry is about the the face to face and hand contact.
虽然后来规定必须戴手套来减少肢体接触。
I think well, although gloves become mandatory to try and reduce fingers on bodies.
但要注意当时帝国时期女性穿着很少束身衣或内衣。
But then you have to consider at that time the Empire line was not much corsetry or undergarments.
所以男性跳舞时如果想的话可以趁机摸索。
So men can kind of feel around if they choose when they're dancing.
随着1880年代舞厅建造和镶木地板的出现，华尔兹节奏加快了。
But as the eighteen eighties progress and ballrooms are built and parquet flooring is introduced, the wall speeds up.
这种舞步里还包含了跳跃动作。
The lander, it had hops in it.
里面有一些邮票。
It had some stamps in it.
墙上有滑轨。
The walls has glides.
它变得越来越快。
It gets faster and faster.
人们担心女士们在旋转时裙子会飞扬起来。
People worry about women's dresses whirling up as they're going round.
这一切都让华尔兹充满了一种非常感官的氛围。
And all this begins to give the waltz a very sensual kind of atmosphere to it.
我在想，每当我在文学作品中想到华尔兹时，总会联想到福楼拜小说中包法利夫人跳华尔兹的场景。
And I'm I'm thinking in the one thing that always comes to mind when I think of the waltz in literature is Madame Bovary dancing the waltz in in Flaubert's novel.
你读过那段描写。
You read that description.
她可能已经喝了几杯香槟。
She's probably had a couple of glasses of champagne.
华尔兹让你头晕目眩。
The wolf makes you dizzy.
这持续了大约七八分钟。
It goes on for about seven or eight minutes.
你有五分钟的休息时间，然后另一支华尔兹开始了。
You get a five minute break then and then another wolf starts.
她的头一度靠在了子爵的胸前。
You're going her head falls on the Viscount's chest at one point.
她注意到自己的裙子正摩擦着他的裤腿。
She notices her dress is rubbing against his trouser leg.
你知道吗？
You know?
这一切都非常充满感官刺激。
And it's it's all very sensuous.
最后她瘫倒在椅子上。
She collapses onto her chair at the end.
但当她躺在临终床上时，你知道，最不可思议的是，这是她生命中唯一的大事，最激动人心的时刻。
But when she's on her deathbed, you know, the the remarkable thing is that this is the one thing, the great thrill of her life.
她记得那支华尔兹，当时她的生活一团糟，但那支舞拯救了她。
She remembers that waltz where the her life was a mess, but the waltz did it for her.
她们还自带针线包，裁缝们就在舞厅边缘待命，因为如果有人踩到裙子导致撕裂，她们就会立刻冲上去用针线修补
They also carried their own their own kitted, the seamstresses were around were around the ballroom edges because if anybody stood on a dress and he got ripped, they rushed on with a needle and thread
所以是的。
and So yes.
然后重新缝合好。
And stitched all together.
男士不得穿着靴子进入舞厅。
Men were not to wear boots in the dance hall.
当然，军人尤其不得佩戴马刺。
And especially military men were not to wear spurs of course.
但还有些可怜的壁花小姐们，她们满怀期待地来到舞厅准备首次亮相舞会，有时却根本没有男伴到场。
But then there were these poor wallflowers who used to go to the ballroom expecting to have their first debutante dance and there were no men sometimes coming in.
所以这些可怜的女子只能在休息室消磨时间，假装是在缝补裙子，实际上只是因为舞厅里男性太少，到世纪末时她们根本找不到舞伴。
So the poor women would spend a lot of time in the anteroom pretending they were having their dresses sewn when really it was just because they couldn't get a partner because there weren't enough men in the ballroom by the end of the century.
现在我们来谈谈男性不足的问题。
Now let's talk about not enough men.
最初要说服男性上场跳舞相当困难，不是吗？
It was quite difficult to get men onto the floor at the beginning, wasn't it?
因为跳舞这些原因，如果我错了你会纠正我的，显然。
Because dancing these are reasons you'll tell me if I'm wrong, obviously.
首先，跳舞被认为不够男子气概。
First of all, it was not thought to be manly to dance.
其次，将女性搂在胸前跳舞被认为不合礼仪。
Secondly, it was not thought to be the done thing to clasp a woman to your bosom and dance.
第三，这种舞蹈方式被认为相当低俗。
And thirdly, it was thought to be a rather rather lower class to dance like this.
你应该回归小步舞，像你父母那样保持得体举止。
You should go back to the Minuet and be good mannered like your parents had been.
这里面有什么内容吗？
Is there anything in there?
关于这点有很多可说，因为在十八世纪末十九世纪初，如果你想被视为绅士，就必须会跳舞并接受过舞蹈老师的正规训练。
There's a lot to say about this because certainly in the late eighteenth, early nineteenth century, if you wanted to be regarded as a gentleman, you should be able to dance and have the appropriate training from a dancing teacher.
所以当时已经进入不同阶段了。
So it had gone into a different phase then.
这不再是流氓的舞蹈。
It wasn't the rascals dance.
它变成了一种社交救生艇般的吸引力。
It became a sort of lifeboat social attraction.
华尔兹舞在社会上如此被接受，以至于男性必须掌握这项技能。
Became so accepted in society that it was expected that a man knew how to waltz.
当然舞者始终面临基督教和笛卡尔哲学关于肉体低于心灵、身心分离等观念的困扰。
And one of the issues of course dancers always had a problem with Christianity and also with Cartesian philosophy about the body being lesser than the mind and there being the mind body split, etc.
维多利亚时代的人最擅长用这类哲学来合理化事物。
And of course the Victorians were wonderful at using this sort of philosophy to justify things.
所以男性常认为这是与肉体相关的事。
So for the men, very often they thought, that's to do with the body.
跳舞是女性做的事。
It's what women do dancing.
他们还认为跳舞不够男子气概，因为从19世纪中叶起，英国男孩都被送到公学读书。
And also they thought that it was unmanly to dance because from the mid nineteenth century in Britain men were being sent away to public school.
那时舞蹈课已被橄榄球和有组织的体育运动取代。
And at that point dancing lessons had been replaced by rugby and organised sports.
所以男孩们只能在家和姐妹们学点舞蹈基础，然后去公学，接着上大学，最后进入男性俱乐部。
So the boys would get a little bit of training at home with their sisters in dancing, go away to public school, then they would go to university, then they would go into men's clubs.
到世纪末就形成了这种男性社交氛围，他们不愿与女性为伍或参与女性活动。
And so it created by the end of the century this homosocial atmosphere where they didn't really want to be with women and do women's things.
结果他们整日泡在伦敦俱乐部里，只在舞会晚宴开始时才露面。
So consequently they just used to hang around in their London clubs and turn up when supper was served at some of the balls.
可怜的女主人们非常恼火，因为满场都是壁花小姐却无人共舞。
And the poor hostesses were getting very annoyed because they had all these wallflowers and nobody to dance with them.
我认为特蕾莎关于音乐（尤其是舞蹈）缺乏阳刚之气的观点很正确。
I think Theresa is right about the unmanliness of music in general actually, but dancing in particular.
我觉得华尔兹容易跳反而是个优势。
And I think that it was helpful that the waltz was easy to dance.
马克·吐温说过这是他唯一会跳的舞。
I mean, Mark Twain said it was the only dance he could do.
你只需带着舞伴旋转，注意别撞到家具就行。
All you had to do was whirl your partner round and try not to bump into the furniture.
而小步舞曲可能要花数周时间学习舞步。
Whereas a minuet, you could spend weeks trying to learn the steps of a minuet.
跳小步舞确实需要专业舞蹈老师指导。
With a minuet you really needed a dancing teacher master.
因为这实际上是在展示你的社会地位——你有能力雇佣专人教学，通过这些社交技能或许能在阶层中晋升。
Because what you were trying to do was to demonstrate your social distinction because you could afford to employ somebody and therefore with these social skills you might be able to rise up the hierarchy.
苏珊？
Susan?
是的，我认为华尔兹那种即兴发挥的特质在那里非常重要。
Yes, I think that whole improvisational quality of the waltz is very important there.
但回到性别议题上，我们当然要提前谈到俄罗斯侍从舞在巴黎和伦敦的兴起。
But going back to the issue of gender, of course we're jumping ahead here to the coming of the Valet Russe in Paris and London.
要知道，在思考男性舞蹈方面最具塑造性的人物之一就是尼金斯基，谢尔盖·佳吉列夫领导的俄罗斯芭蕾舞团的瓦斯拉夫·尼金斯基。
You know, one of the characters who was so formative in thinking about male dancing is Nijinsky, Vaslove Nijinsky of the Ballet Russe Company run by Sergey Jagilev.
在尼金斯基之前舞台上已有许多男舞者，但他在1911年凭借芭蕾舞剧《玫瑰幽灵》大获成功，该剧基于戈蒂埃和沃杜瓦耶的剧本，由米歇尔·福金编舞。
Now there were plenty of male dancers on stage before Nijinsky but he had a particular hit with a ballet in 1911, Le Spectre de la Rose, Spectre of the Rose which was based on a Gautier and Vaudoyer scenario and with choreography by Michel Fauquien.
它讲述了一位年轻女子从舞会归来的故事。
And it tells the story of a young woman coming back from the ball.
她在睡梦中起舞，因此必须跳得像在梦游，但她被狼的灵体驱使着。
She's asleep so she has to dance as if she's asleep but she's being driven by the spirit of the wolf.
华尔兹通过尼金斯基这个肌肉发达的舞者得到了具象化体现。
The waltz is incarnated, embodied by Nygenski, who is a very muscular dancer.
但他所做的是将这种肌肉发达的男性气质女性化。
But what he did was to feminise the idea of that muscular masculinity.
他摆出一个第五手位的姿势，双臂举过头顶，双手交叉，身体微微侧倾，仿佛即将消散，或是要将玫瑰的芬芳传递给那个他带着跳华尔兹的女孩。
He made a pose with his arms in fifth position, au courant, which means the arms above the head and he crossed the hands over and leant slightly to the side as if he's, you know, about to fade perhaps or give the scent of the rose to the girl he's driving through this waltz.
我是朱莉·安德鲁斯，非常荣幸为您带来诺伊瑟播客网络的新节目《简·奥斯汀故事集》。
I'm Julie Andrews, and it is my great pleasure to bring you Jane Austen stories, the new show from the Noiser Podcast Network.
我将朗读《傲慢与偏见》。
I'll be reading Pride and Prejudice.
我们将漫步宏伟庄园，与衣着考究的淑女共饮下午茶。
We'll walk grand estates and take tea with well dressed gentlewomen.
但在这个英格兰的宁静角落，并非所有事物都如表象那般美好。
But in this tranquil corner of England, not everything is quite as it appears.
请在您收听播客的任何平台订阅《简·奥斯汀故事集》。
Listen to Jane Austen stories wherever you get your podcasts.
我们稍微提到过贵族阶层如何将其放在心上，维多利亚女王确实接受了。
So if we've referred a little to that how the aristocracy took took it to heart and the queen Victoria went yes.
但她确实去了。
But she did go.
她去了。
She did.
她跳舞了而且很喜欢
She She danced and she liked and
她很喜欢。
She liked it.
我们讨论过能去舞会的人。
And so and we've talked about people who can go to ballrooms.
但对我来说有趣的是它遍及整个社会。
But one of the interesting things for me is that it went right across society.
小镇和村庄里的人们都说：我们不必跳民间舞了，现在要跳华尔兹。
So you're getting people in small towns and villages saying we needn't do these folk dances, we'll have a waltz now.
有趣的是，虽然大家都在跳华尔兹，但关键是在哪里跳以及怎么跳。
The interesting thing is, is yes they're all doing the waltz but the question is where and how.
因为舞姿能体现你在社会阶层中的地位。
Because style distinguished who you were in the social hierarchy.
舞蹈教师手册中有大量图像展示正确站姿。
So there are lots of images from dancing teacher manuals which show you this is the correct way to stand.
贵族式站姿要求背部挺直，与舞伴保持得体距离，目光掠过舞伴肩头而非直视。
This is the aristocratic way to stand with a direct back at a respectful distance from your partner and glancing over the shoulder of your partner, never looking at them intently.
而低阶层舞者会贴得很近，紧搂舞伴，这被视为粗俗的典范。
Whereas if you're low class, you are very close together, you clutch your partner and that was regarded as being the epitome of bad taste.
是的，我确实读过1870年代纽约某些舞厅的评论，专门提到这点：这些人跳舞方式极其粗俗。
Yes, I've certainly read reviews of dancing in some New York ballrooms in the 1870s, remarking on this very thing, know, they dance in such a vulgar way, these people.
但英国人似乎承认美国人跳舞比他们更好。
But the British seemed to admit that the Americans danced better than they did.
GG：确实如此。
GG: They did.
确实如此。
They did.
那是因为他们认真学习了舞蹈课程。
Well that was because they took care over their lessons.
当然，正如我们讨论过的，男士们要负责引导舞步。
And the problem of course as we've talked about, the men, of course they're responsible for steering.
如果你没上过课，就不太知道如何引导舞伴。
And if you haven't had lessons, you don't always know how to steer your partner.
即使掌握了基本步法，他们也不擅长反向旋转。
And they weren't very good at going the other way around, even when they'd grasped the basics.
所以很多人会头晕，因为他们只做所谓的自然转（右转）。
So that's why a lot of people got very dizzy was because they did what's known as the natural turn.
你总是向右旋转。
You turn to the right all the time.
乔治·格罗史密斯有首滑稽歌曲叫《你会反旋吗》，因为在维多利亚女王面前反旋曾被视为极度失礼。
And there's a very funny song by George Grossmith called Do You Reverse because it was thought to be the epitome of bad taste to reverse in front of Queen Victoria.
其实在日耳曼宫廷也是如此。
And also actually in the Germanic courts as well.
我猜这背后的原因是人们反旋跳不好，不想有人在...面前摔倒
And I suspect that the reason for this is because people couldn't do it very well and they didn't want anybody falling over in I front mean of
他们被反复教导练习这个动作。
were taught and taught and taught to do that.
这并不容易，对吧？
It's not easy is it?
一旦你掌握了诀窍，就没什么问题了。
Once you get the hang of it, it's all right.
我是说，只要你不追求完美的话。
I mean provided you don't want to be perfect.
但要坚持不懈。
But perseverance.
这很有趣，因为詹姆斯·乔伊斯在《尤利西斯》的CSA章节中确实多次提到沃尔辛厄姆。
That's interesting because James Joyce in Ulysses, in the CSA episode of Ulysses, actually talks about Walsingham a lot.
他当然是在谈论都柏林的夜晚。
He's talking about Night down Dublin, of course.
他谈论的是红灯区。
And he's talking about the red light district.
但在那段描述中有很多反转。
But there are reverse turns in that description there.
而且很明显能感觉到华尔兹在推动整个场景。
And there's very much a sense the waltz is driving the scene.
所以它仍然保留着与可疑道德观的关联，实际上他特别提到了犹豫华尔兹。
So it still retains that association with doubtful morals in that particular actually he mentions the hesitation waltz.
也许那是...
Perhaps that's one for
现在我们进入了一种新的华尔兹风格，这种风格出现在十九世纪末，可能源自美国。
Well now we're into a sort of a new style of waltzing which occurred towards the end of the nineteenth century possibly from America.
英国还是世界各地？
England or everywhere?
主要来自美国，但可以说是在英国臻于完善。
Mostly from America but it was perfected, if one can say that, in England.
它被称为波士顿，这暗示了它的起源地。
It was called the Boston which suggests where it came from.
与大多数流行舞蹈形式不同，它是由中上层阶级发展起来的。
And unusually for a popular dance form, it was developed by the upper middle classes.
这种舞蹈并非必然源自农民阶层或民间背景。
It wasn't one of those dances that necessarily came from the peasantry or from a folk background.
它原本就是华尔兹的既有基础风格，而非某种新风格。
It was already the existing style of not the style, it was the existing basis of waltz.
这种舞蹈是配合华尔兹音乐跳的。
It was done to waltz music.
但1900年代出现了新风格的华尔兹音乐，舞者们的回应是更多地滑步，同时不再外开双脚——因为整个19世纪跳华尔兹都沿用了芭蕾技巧。
But the new style of waltz music comes in in the 1900s and the response of that by the dancers was to glide more and also not to turn the feet out because the waltz had always been danced in the nineteenth century using the ballet technique.
先脚尖着地，双脚外开。
Toe down first, feet turned out.
行进时踮起脚尖再落下，如此反复：起、落、起、落。
Up and up in up on your toes as you go and down, up, up, down, up.
并用第三姿势完成旋转。
And you use your third position to turn.
20世纪初的年轻人不再喜欢这种跳法，听着这些梦幻的华尔兹乐曲，他们想要滑行。
Young people didn't want that in the early nineteen hundreds and listening to these dreamy waltzes, they wanted to glide.
于是他们采用行走步法，配合梦幻音乐在斜线上走出这种舒展的长步——德里克，就像你知道的《风流寡妇》那样
So what they did was to walk and you get this long stretched out walking on the diagonal to this dreamy music which Derek, I think you know like The Merry Widow and
是的，实际上发生了两件事。
Yes, two things happen really.
正如你所说，波士顿华尔兹——在英格兰几乎总是被称为英国华尔兹，而且无论作曲者是谁（比如爱尔兰人詹姆斯·马洛伊），但重点是我喜欢的这首歌就是英国华尔兹。
There is, as you say, the Boston waltz, it tends nearly always to be called the English waltz in England, and it doesn't matter who writes it, I mean James Malloy was Irish, but just a song why I like is the English waltz, know.
这是种更慢速的华尔兹，正如特蕾莎所说。
It's a slower waltz, as Theresa is saying.
随后随着1905年《风流寡妇》的问世——该剧1907年在伦敦引起轰动——我们有了中板华尔兹。
Then with the Merry Widow in 1905, which is a sensation in London in 1907, we have the waltz moderato.
它介于两者之间，但更像是《风流寡妇》圆舞曲的风格。
It falls a little bit between the two but the merry widow waltz.
它比英国圆舞曲稍快，又比威尼斯圆舞曲慢一些。
It's a little faster than the English waltz, slower than the Venetian waltz.
这引发了另一股圆舞曲热潮。
It sets off another waltz craze.
然后我们还有英国圆舞曲作曲学派，比如阿奇博尔德·乔伊斯和
And then we have that English school of waltz composers, Archibald Joyce and
当然。
Of course.
在泰坦尼克号上很受欢迎，不过后来也和泰坦尼克号一起沉没了。
Went down well on the Titanic, but then they also went down badly on the Titanic as well.
在我看来，它似乎不断获得新的活力。
What it seems to me is that it keeps being getting an extra charge.
本来进展顺利，随着巴勒鲁的加入，情况变得更好了。
It's going well and then Balleroux come in, it goes in better.
看起来有点吃力，但这时英国圆舞曲加入了进来。
It seems to be hurting a bit and then this English waltz comes in.
它是否总能以某种方式自我更新？
Does it always get does it always sort of recharge itself?
现在它似乎能自我更新了。
It sort of recharges itself now.
确实如此。
It does.
看
Look at
严格来说。
strictly.
确实如此。
It does.
你知道吗，就在今天早上我听广播时，还听到有人在唱《月亮河》。
And you know that even today this morning I was listening to the radio and I heard someone singing Moon River.
我当时想，哦，是狼群，他们一定知道我正在参加一个关于狼的节目。
I thought, oh, a it's wolves, they must know I'm participating in a programme about wolves.
《今晚你寂寞吗》，猫王的那首歌？
You lonesome tonight, Elvis Presley?
我与你共度最后的狼群时光，谦卑的Angle Book。
I have the last wolves with you, Angle Book humbly.
狼群永不离去。
Wolves don't go away.
《为我留下最后的狼群》是泽尔达·菲茨杰拉德的小说。
Save Me the Last Wolves is Zelda Fitzgerald's novel.
但我也想到了《风流寡妇》。
But also I was thinking of The Merry Widow.
当然这还涉及到贝克特的《快乐的日子》。
Of course it gets into Beckett's Happy Days.
这是最后一道菜了。
It's the last course.
温妮正在听留声机，他们在播放音乐。
Winnie is listening to the gramophone and they're playing.
这引发了华尔兹的又一次复兴，但到了三十年代中期人们开始有点厌倦了。
It causes another resurgence of waltz but by the mid thirties people are getting a bit sick.
那时他们更喜欢狐步舞。
They prefer the foxtrot by then much.
他们曾为从狐步舞手中夺回华尔兹的主导权而激烈斗争过。
Well they had a big tussle to try and wrest the waltz back from the foxtrot.
我们能不能回到最初的问题：是谁被这种音乐吸引？
Can we go back can we go back to who is being pulled in by this?
谁在追随？就像现在年轻人追随特定的团体和乐队那样。
Who is following is it following like nowadays young people follow particular groups and bands and so on.
人们当时追随华尔兹的是哪些人？
Who were people following the waltz?
他们愿意去任何地方看华尔兹、跳华尔兹，这很明显。
They'd go anywhere for a waltz, to see a waltz, to dance a waltz, obviously.
大约从1910年开始掀起了一股巨大的舞蹈热潮
There was a huge dance craze from about nineteen ten
1910年。
Nineteen ten.
是的。
Yeah.
席卷欧洲和北美，主要是随着精确节拍音乐和探戈的到来而推动的。
Across Europe and North America, mainly pushed along by of course the arrival of right time music and the tango.
而华尔兹在跟上潮流方面有些吃力。
And the waltz had a bit of a struggle keeping up.
但当然还有这些人，这些舞者，这些社交舞者以及这些舞蹈教师。
But then of course there were these people, these dancers, these social dancers and also these teachers.
你说的社交舞者是指什么？
What do you mean by social dancers?
社交舞者指的是热衷跳舞的人，他们属于各种社团，大多是伦敦西区的上流社会人士。
By social dancers I mean people who were keen dancers, belonged to societies, who were these upper class people, mostly in the West End Of London.
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当然这又涉及到这种向上攀爬的社会现象。
And of course again it's this aspirational society.
人们希望看起来光鲜亮丽，像约瑟芬·布拉德利那样跳舞。
People wanted to look glamorous and dance like people like Josephine Bradley.
他们曾登上所有杂志的版面。
They were featured in all of the magazines.
乔治·丰塔纳，当然还有维克多·西尔维斯特。
George Fontana, Victor Sylvester of course.
正是这些人实际参与——虽不能说完全确立，但确实整理规范了华尔兹舞步，明确指出华尔兹必须是两步后第三步并脚。
All of these people who had a hand in actually really not quite cementing but certainly tidying up and saying, No, a waltz has got to be two steps and the third step you pull the feet together.
这不像狐步舞那样可以自由发挥。
It's not a foxtrot which is more open ended.
我正想说，确实有些擅长跳舞的男士会在舞厅受雇伴舞。
I was going to say that yes, there were men who were good at dancing whose services would be for hire in some ballrooms.
维克多·西尔维斯特也曾如此，尽管后来他自己成为了舞厅冠军。
For a time Victor Silvesta as well, although he became obviously a ballroom champion himself.
但有趣的是他们有时被称为舞男，对吧？
But Interesting that they were known as gigolo sometimes, weren't they?
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
They were.
我是说，
I mean,
当时我想就此发表评论。
when I went I went comment on that.
呃，不是。
Well, no.
你看，这就是你理解这个词的隐含意义。
And they you see, that that's the connotation of the word you're taking.
但有一次我和父亲骑假日自行车船，去了晨塔里的塔楼。
But when I'm on my one holiday bike boat with my father, we went to the went to the tower in the tower morrow.
这些围坐的男人被称为'摇摆人'。
And these men sitting around and they were called the jigglers.
并不是说他们把女人带上床的意思。
They didn't mean they picked up the women to take them to bed.
而是指
It meant that
现在。
it now.
是啊。
Yeah.
我会的，如果
I would if
我就是你。
I'm you.
我说过。
I said that.
因为我跟所有伙计聊过，他对被称为摇摆人很得意。
Because I talked to all of the blokes, and he was very pleased about being a giggler.
他管这叫摇摆人。
He called it a giggler.
我母亲也是这么称呼他们的。
That's exactly how my mother referred to them as well.
没错。
Yes.
所以你知道
So you know about
摇摆人。
gigglers.
是的。
Yes.
我们这边有两个人，你们所有人。
There's two of us here, all of you.
我们做得很好。
We're doing well.
嗯，
Well,
我的无知现在暴露无遗了。
my ignorance is now on display.
我持观望态度，因为我觉得即兴创作这个议题非常有趣。
I'm on the fence because I think that whole issue of improvisation is so interesting.
你知道，事实上任何人都可以
You know, the fact that anyone can
做到，但维多利亚时期有个有趣的方面。
do it and yet it But there's an interesting aspect with the Victorian.
那时你其实做不了太多即兴发挥，因为你仍然受到束缚。
You couldn't really do much in the way of improvisation because you were still tied.
但在这种新式华尔兹中，你可以迈步走向新的方向。
But in this new style of waltzing, you could go and stride off into new directions.
如果要撞到人，你可以侧身避开。
You could go sideways if you're going to bump into somebody.
对。
Right.
这很有趣，因为够奇怪的是，弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫在她1915年的处女作《远航》中就借用了华尔兹即兴创作的这一概念，这很有意思。
Well, that's interesting because bizarrely enough, Virginia Woolf takes off on that notion of improvisation in the waltz in her very first novel Voyage Out in 1915, which is interesting.
你说的'借用'是什么意思？
What do mean takes off?
你是做什么工作的？
What do you do?
我还没读过那本书。
I haven't read that.
她把华尔兹置于小说的核心位置。
Well, she puts a waltz at the centre of the novel.
我的意思是它并没有被刻意突出，但它讲述了一个年轻女性寻找自我的故事，而这里很多文人都在用华尔兹作为一种文化形象或文化象征，代表自由的可能性，因为你可以通过华尔兹实现很多事情。
I mean it isn't foregrounded as such but it tells the story of a young woman trying to find herself and this is where you know, a lot of the literati are using the waltz as a cultural figure or cultural symbol of the possibility of freedom because you can do things with the waltz.
她描写了南美洲一家酒店里宾客演奏华尔兹的场景——他们都在南美洲，女主角与三重奏乐团演奏华尔兹，三重奏突然同时加速，人群开始各自起舞，接着传来一声碰撞——大概是三重奏的铙钹声——然后人群就散开了。
And she has a waltz being performed by the guests at a hotel in South America they're all in South America and the female protagonist is playing the walls with a trio and the trio dashes into simultaneously getting the walls together at some point and people just start doing their own thing and then there's a crash, presumably the crash of symbols of the trio, and then people break up.
沃尔夫在这里展现的是华尔兹也有阴暗面，所以它既蕴含着和谐与团聚的潜力，也潜藏着分裂的可能性。
What Wolf is doing there is she's showing that there is a darker side to the wolves, so there's a kind of potential for fragmentation as well as for harmony and getting together.
因为这有历史渊源，李斯特写过四首《梅菲斯托圆舞曲》，华尔兹在那里成了魔鬼的体裁。
Because that has a history because Liszt wrote four Mephisto waltzes, where the waltz becomes the devil genre.
而且华尔兹始终潜藏着一种下流的特质。
And there's a kind of seedy side to the waltz that's always ready to emerge.
理查·施特劳斯的《莎乐美》中七层纱之舞，本质上就是脱衣舞曲华尔兹，还带着些东方主义色彩。
Salome, Richard Strauss, the dance of the Seven Veils, the strip teases a waltz really, with some orientalist features to it.
即使在更近代，想想汤姆·琼斯的《黛利拉》。
And even in more recent times, think of Tom Jones with Delilah.
那夜我经过窗前看见灯光。
I saw the light on the night as I passed by the window.
你知道，那全是癫狂与诱惑。
It's all that you know, delirre and seductiveness.
华尔兹与女性形象紧密相连，因为它被视为非常优雅，但当然如我们所说，女性在维多利亚时代及之后——其实更早也是——被认为具有两面性，她们骨子里既有天使也有魔鬼。
The waltz is associated with women very much and because it's regarded as very graceful, but of course with women as we say, know, there's these Victorians and later that viewed the women and earlier indeed as having two sides, the angel and the devil in their makeup.
是的。
Yes.
正如你所说，华尔兹可以朝任何方向发展。
So the waltz can go either way as you say.
你会不会认为，正如节目早些时候你提到的，它通过社会传播的方式可能给社会带来某种文化统一性，是这样吗？
You would have thought that the fact that it went through society in the way you suggested earlier in the programme might have given society some kind of cultural unity, did it?
在某种程度上是的。
To an extent.
如果我插一句，难道不觉得有趣的是华尔兹传播到了这么多国家吗？
If I jump in and say that, well, is it not interesting that the wall spreads to so many countries?
无论是澳大利亚、南美、中国，还是整个欧洲。
Whether it's Australia, South America, China, all over Europe.
但人们发展出了自己的本土华尔兹变体——苏格兰华尔兹、爱尔兰华尔兹、还有那些贝类海鲜主题的，你知道的，老式英格兰华尔兹，帕丁顿格林的美女珀金斯，后来演变成了乔迪华尔兹，舒适的巴特菲尔德。
But people develop their own local waltzers, Scottish waltzers, Irish waltzers, cockles and mussels, you know, old English waltzers, the pretty Polly Perkins of Paddington Green, which then becomes a Geordie Walzers, cushy Butterfield.
这些华尔兹变体随处可见，你知道的。
You have these Walsh's everywhere, you know.
所以某种程度上，如果真存在统一性——我认为确实存在——那就是都市体验的统一性。
So somehow, the unity, if there is one, and I think there is, is the unity of the urban experience.
这些早已不是乡村舞蹈了。
These are no longer country dances.
这些都是都市舞蹈，随着十九世纪推进到二十世纪，城市之间变得越来越相似。
These are urban dances and cities become more and more like each other as the nineteenth century progresses and into the twentieth century.
而华沙舞则带有英格兰特色。
And the Warsaw does the English.
我认为华沙舞非常契合这种趋势。
And I think the Warsaw fits into that so well.
是
Is
这部分是因为节奏的关系吗？
that because of the rhythm partly though?
你知道，我的意思是，显然这在某种程度上确实如此。
You know, I mean, obviously it is to some extent.
我在想约翰·凯奇为五个行政区创作的49首华尔兹，当然，里面一个音符都没有。
I'm thinking that, you know, of John Cage writing 49 waltzes for five boroughs, which of course, there isn't a note of music in it anywhere.
那是用火车影片和城市噪音来复制华尔兹节奏，那种一二三的韵律。
It's films of trains and urban noises that replicate that waltz rhythm, that one, two, three.
这其中有种返祖现象。
There's something atavistic about it.
这很难说清楚，但华尔兹确实有种使其成为世界性流派的特质。
It's very difficult to know but certainly there's something about the waltz that made it a cosmopolitan genre.
房东，永远不会。
The landlord, never.
你扮演房东，人们就会想到奥地利。
You play a landlord, people think of Austria.
你演奏风笛，人们就会想到苏格兰。
You play a stress spade, people think of Scotland.
你知道，有些事物似乎无法全球流通。
You know, there are certain things that don't seem to move globally.
但像维也纳这样的地方会出现新的拉锯战，然后传遍世界。
But then you'll get a place like Vienna, a new tug of war arises, goes round the world.
像牙买加特伦奇镇这样的地方，雷鬼音乐兴起并风靡全球。
You'll get a place like Trenchtown Jamaica, Reggae arises and goes round the world.
我始终没找到令人满意的解释，为何这类现象会出现在新奥尔良和爵士乐上。
And I've never found a satisfactory explanation why that sometimes happens in New Orleans and jazz.
但波尔卡也发生过类似情况，你不觉得吗？
But a similar thing happened with the polka, wouldn't you say?
确实如此。
I would.
事实上，当你唱的时候我正在跳波尔卡
In fact, I was singing the polka when you sang
我
I
是说，波尔卡舞曲。
mean, the polka.
华尔兹淘汰了其他所有舞曲。
Waltz drove out everything.
波尔卡。
The polka.
十九世纪四十年代的波尔卡。
Polka in the eighteen forties.
虽然老约翰·施特劳斯没创作多少波尔卡，但他的儿子们确实写了大量波尔卡作品。
Been enormously but Johann Strauss the Elder didn't write many polkas, but his sons certainly did write loads of polkas.
而且没错，波尔卡也是一种全球化舞曲。
And and yes, the polka is also a topsymopolitan.
你知道，有美洲原住民风格的波尔卡，世界各地都有波尔卡。
You get Native American polkas, you know, you get polkas everywhere.
但我要说，波尔卡从未取代华尔兹成为最浪漫舞蹈的典范。
But I would say that the polka never ousted the waltz as the epitome of the most romantic dance possible.
确实没有。
No.
对很多人来说，波尔卡更像是一种民间舞蹈而非
And it's still for many people that polka seemed more like a folk dance than
一种
a
舞蹈
dance
是的，任何现代性的迹象。
with Yes, any sign of modernity.
啁啾声。
Chirping.
斯科特，那位舞蹈大师说过，如果你读过任何小说，你知道的，男主角总是完美的华尔兹舞者。
Scott, the dancing master, that he said if you read any novel, you know, the hero is always the perfect waltzer.
确实如此。
Exactly.
女主角也是，完美的华尔兹舞者。
And so is the heroine, the perfect waltzer.
当他们跳波尔卡舞时，从未有人说过爱的言语。
That nobody, no words of love were ever uttered when they were dancing the polka.
在你蹦蹦跳跳的时候很难被人认真对待。
It's difficult to be taken seriously while you're hopping around.
我
I
不了解那些小事。
do not know those little things.
我爱你，跳一跳。
I love you, hop.
那么它是如何与现代主义联系起来的？
So did it how did it connect with modernism?
嗯，我认为是我们提到的那个碎片化问题。
Well, think it's that issue of fragmentation that we mentioned.
这个概念是狼群有可能分裂，狼群会在自身内部制造间隙，就像犹豫不决的华尔兹，切分节奏。
The idea that there's a potential for the wolves to break up, for the wolves to insert gaps into itself, like the hesitation waltz, to syncopate.
你可以得到爵士华尔兹，那是在二四拍基础上叠加华尔兹节奏。
You can get a jazz waltz, which is a twofour time with a waltz rhythm over the top.
斯特拉文斯基在《幽灵》上演的同时创作了华尔兹。
Stravinsky wrote waltzes at the same time as Spectre was being performed.
所以他为《彼得鲁什卡》写了一支华尔兹，而且极其阴暗。
So he did a waltz for Petrushka and it's extremely dark.
这是《彼得鲁什卡》中芭蕾舞女演员与摩尔人角色的华尔兹共舞，随后关系破裂，最终以帕特里夏被谋杀而悲剧收场。
It's the ballerina and the moor characters, puppet characters in Petrushka waltzing together and then it breaks up and ends in disaster in fact with the murder of Patricia.
但我认为这其中还蕴含着解体的可能性。
But I think it's this idea that there's disintegration as well that's possible.
我想或许现在该提到拉威尔了，因为世纪之交这个概念。
I mean, I would think perhaps Ravel is someone to bring in at this point because of the idea of the turn of the century.
拉威尔不是说过我们在火山口上跳舞之类的话吗？
Didn't Ravel say something about we're dancing on the edge of a volcano?
他
He
创作了《La Valle's》。
wrote La Valle's.
他在1911年创作了《La Valle's》。
And he wrote La Valle's nineteen eleven.
然后1920年又出了两部。
Then nineteen twenty, there were two.
是的，我认为它吸收了一些效果，众所周知佳吉列夫拒绝了拉威尔的《Lavel's》，但弗雷德里卡什...
And yeah, then I think it picks up on some of those effects that I mean, famously, Diaghilev refused Ravel's Lavel's but Fredrikash But
那太粗俗了。
it was too vulgar.
也许你知道
Maybe you know
不，我知道他拒绝事物的方式很不可靠。
No, I know that unreliable in the way that he refused things.
他会拒绝那些我们现在认为很棒的东西。
He would refuse things that we now think are great.
比如他拒绝了沃恩·威廉姆斯的《约伯记》。
He refused Vaughan Williams Job, for example.
这是其中
Which is one of
最杰出的作品之一，你知道吗？
the best works, you know?
想想
Think
R.
R.
斯特拉文斯基的作品，那段音乐持续了多久？
Stravinsky was something, how long the piece of music lasted?
斯特拉文斯基说：直到最后，亲爱的。
Stravinsky said, to the end, my dear.
这是个绝妙的回答。
It's a great answer.
是啊。
Yeah.
但回到梅尔文的问题，阿什顿和巴兰钦后来为《拉瓦尔》编舞，再次展现了它的开放性结局——在巴兰钦的版本中，那种诡异飘向死亡怀抱的感觉。
But then Ashton and and Balanchine, to go back to Melvin's question, they choreographed La Valle's and it was again its open endedness, its bizarre kind of sense of drifting into, in Balanchine's case, into the arms of death.
你知道，就像伍尔夫在1910年谈到人类性格时说的，这种对角色转变的担忧。
You know, there's this this worry about character changing as, you know, Wolf talked about in 1910, human character.
确实很多人对《拉瓦尔》有这种看法，但拉威尔本人否认了这一点。
And I do think a lot of people think that about La Valle's, but Ravel himself denied it.
有件事我很高兴你提到爵士现代主义，虽然《波莱罗》是拉格泰姆风格，但大卫·布鲁姆克的诠释很棒。
But one thing I would like to say that I'm glad you mentioned jazz modernism because it's a raggy walls, but David Brummack, great.
但另一点我们必须明确，华尔兹被视为现代产物，但不一定是现代主义的。
But the other thing I think we have to be clear, the waltz is seen as modern, not necessarily modernist.
要知道，如果我们讨论现代主义和桑吉尼斯，勋伯格也写过华尔兹，你知道，大家都写过。
You know, if we're talking about modernist and the Sanguinees, Schoenberg wrote a waltz, you know, that there are Everybody.
这与华尔兹的现代性是不同的。
It's different to the modernity of the waltz.
当你想到像约翰·施特劳斯的华尔兹，那些加速段落，其实是受到电动机的启发。
And when you think that something like Johann Strauss' waltz, accelerations, accelerats, owner, inspired by the electric motor.
这是现代工业时代的一部分。
It's it's part of the modern age.
电力是施特劳斯创作时期的时代特征，他们的华尔兹中能找到电气化的影子。
Electricity is part of the time when the Strauss were writing, and electrical references are found in their waltzes.
所以他们是有现代意识的。
So they're aware of modernity.
有种观点认为，华尔兹的节奏具有工业特质，是机械化的。
And there's a school of thought isn't there, in that the rhythm of the waltz is industrial in tone, that it's mechanistic.
确实有人这么认为，但我觉得
People do think that but I think
我完全不同意这个观点，不过这确实是个论点。
I so don't agree with it, but it's an argument.
人们看着乐谱上的音符，或是听到蒸汽风琴演奏华尔兹
People look at notes on the page or they hear a Calliope, a Steele Morgan playing a waltz
然后
and it's
就是咚、咚、咚、咚的机械节拍。
boom, boom, boom, boom.
但如果你听像维也纳爱乐这样深谙华尔兹的乐团演奏，节奏不是呆板的咚锵锵，而是常常抢拍的灵动处理。
But But you listen to an orchestra like Venice Philharmonic that know their waltzes, it's not boom, ching, ching, but it's often ahead of the beat.
砰，锵，锵，砰，锵，锵，稍微提前一点。
Boom, ching, ching, boom, ching, ching, just slightly ahead.
而且不是一直这样。
And not all the time.
你必须找到那种感觉。
You have to have the feel of it.
这就像爵士乐一样。
It's just like in jazz.
如果你没有摇摆感，那就不行。
If you've got no feel for swing, it doesn't work.
如果你感受不到维也纳华尔兹的节奏，那就不是真正的维也纳华尔兹。
If you've got no feel for that Viennese rhythm in the waltz, it doesn't work as a Viennese waltz.
好的。
Fine.
你认为它没有变成博物馆展品的危险吗？
You think it's in no danger become a museum piece?
我担心的是当我看到《舞动奇迹》时，他们用非华尔兹曲目来跳华尔兹，仅仅因为能把某些东西分成三拍。
What I worry about is when I hear see Strictly come dancing, and they use pieces that are not waltzes to dance the waltz just because that you can divide something into threes.
比如韦伯的《回忆》。
For example, memory of Lloyd Webber.
他们已经用过几次这个曲子。
They've used this a couple of times.
这是首慢歌。
It's a slow song.
回忆。
Memory.
但每件事都要融入其中。
But each thing goes into.
所以你可以这样理解。
So you can think of it as.
但它并不是那个速度。
But it's not at that speed.
这是个慢四拍。
It's a slow four.
不是快三拍。
It's not a fast three.
我真希望《舞动奇迹》能采用正确的节拍来编舞。
And I wish Strictly would use the right meters for their dances.
有什么问题吗？
Anything?
嗯，我确实同意。
Well, I do agree.
但当然，这是为了用流行音乐吸引观众，用他们能认出的当代音乐。
But of course, it's it's about attracting an audience with popular music, music that they can recognize music of now.
所以我理解他们为什么这么做。
So I understand why they do it.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much indeed.
感谢特蕾莎·巴克兰、苏·琼斯和德里克·斯科特，以及我们的录音师苏·梅耶。
Thanks to Theresa Buckland, Sue Jones, and Derek Scott, and to our studio engineer, Sue Mayer.
下周节目：叛教者尤利安——这位罗马皇帝废除了基督教作为国教并复兴了异教信仰。
Next week, Julian the Apostate, the Roman emperor who removed Christianity as a straight religion and restored paganism.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
现在《我们的时代》播客将延长几分钟，播放梅尔文和嘉宾们的额外花絮内容。
And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.
在节目中你有哪些想说却没说的话？
What would you like to have said you didn't say in the program?
我刚想到这个，可能我想谈谈表演技巧，然后是娱乐业和约翰·施特劳斯。
I've only just thought of this, but probably I'd like to say something about showmanship and then show business and Johann Strauss.
他是如何塑造自己形象的？
How did he portray himself?
为什么人们会成群结队去听他的音乐会？
Why did people go into exoduses at his concerts?
不过有时候音乐会确实存在，特别是在他演奏的时候。
Well, but sometimes there were concerts and and then at his playing.
他到底有什么特别之处？
What was it about him?
你是想问为什么他会做那些事吗？
Why did he do what he did, you mean?
以及为什么这会让人们如此兴奋？
And why did it thrill people?
这个嘛，你应该是专家才对。
Well, you're you're supposed to be an expert.
为什么不谈谈你的看法？
Why not what's your view?
哦，这个我...
Oh, well I
你就是专家啊。
You are an expert.
你本不该是专家的。
You're not supposed to be an expert.
你就是专家。
You are an expert.
你的看法是什么？
What's your view?
哦，我以为你会四处转转了解情况
Oh, thought you were going to go around and find out whatever
嗯，就在你...
Well, you just when you
这是因为他指挥乐团时不用指挥棒的方式
it was the way that he's he did not conduct his orchestra with a baton.
他站在小提琴手的位置指挥，因为他本身就是小提琴家，并以全身随音乐摆动的风格闻名
He led from the violin because he was a violinist, and he was renowned for moving about his whole body moved with the music.
他会用脚跟着音乐打拍子
He tapped his foot to the music.
古典音乐家本不该用脚打拍子
A classical musician shouldn't tap their foot to the music.
比如在公园公开演出时，他首创了售票模式，雇警察拉警戒线，还花钱搞灯光烟火等华丽效果
And when he gave performances, for example, in public parks, he had the idea of ticketing the events, paying police to rope things off, and then paying for spectacular displays, lighting, fireworks, all that kind of thing.
这让他获得了超级巨星的地位，我认为他成了首位全球音乐巨星
And of course, this all gave him a kind of superstardom and he became I think the first global musical superstar.
帕格尼尼虽然也巡演，但老约翰·施特劳斯能带着整个乐团巡演
I know Paganini toured but Johann Strauss father could tour with an entire orchestra.
人们太追捧他了
People wanted him so much.
我想补充一点，圆舞曲始终与现代性相关联
I would like to add something about the waltz being associated with modernity all the time.
不一定是现代主义，而是现代性
Not necessarily modernism, modernity.
它似乎总能自我革新，以至于20世纪初再次流行时，仍代表着当时被认为现代的所有特质
It seems to reinvent itself so that when it comes back again in the early twentieth century, it's associated with all those qualities which were thought to be modern.
这是自然动作，毫无矫揉造作。
That is natural movement and a lack of artificiality.
这对于英国特质的概念至关重要。
And that's so important in terms of the concept of Englishness.
为什么？
Why?
因为无论英国人是谁，19世纪形成了一种观念：英国人被视为真实性格的代表——比如当他们观察法国人时，认为法国人保留了更做作的礼仪和舞蹈风格。
Because the English whoever the English are, there's this notion that develops in the nineteenth century that the English are true characters when you look at when they looked at people from France say which had retained a more, they would argue, affected etiquette and style of dancing.
当时普遍认为民族特性可以通过人们的舞蹈方式体现。
There was a very widespread notion that a national character could be seen in the way in which people dance.
因此英国人的舞蹈特点是内敛、优雅、自然，不炫技却掌控自如。
And so for the English it was restrained, it was elegant, it was natural, lack of showmanship but in total control.
这与维多利亚时代对上流绅士的定位高度吻合。
And that accords very much with the Victorian notion of the upper class gentleman.
我想补充关于19世纪小说家乔治·艾略特的讨论，之前我们没机会谈到她。
I would like to have added something about the novelist George Eliot in the nineteenth century whom we didn't get to talk about.
她其实在多部小说中运用了舞蹈形式，尤其在《亚当·比德》中。
But she actually uses the dance as form in several of her novels and particularly in Adam Bede.
但她将舞蹈形式用作某种程度上的道德沦丧的展现手段。
But she uses the dance form as a way of showing moral turpitude to some degree.
比如当亚瑟·唐纳·索恩组织舞会来接近海蒂·索雷尔时。
You know, when Arthur Donna Thorne has organised a dance to get off with Hetty Sorrell, you know.
这最终导致了海蒂·索雷尔的毁灭，我是说她的悲剧。
And it leads to the demise of Hetty Sorrell, I mean to her tragedy.
特别是因为这是小说的核心情节。
Particularly because it's at the centre of the novel.
不像莎士比亚喜剧那样在结尾安排一场舞蹈。
It's not like Shakespearean comedy where you have a dance at the end.
但艾略特有趣之处在于她处处点缀着对狼的隐喻，因为她既谈论乡村舞蹈，又认为华尔兹是人工造作的，这与特蕾莎的观点截然相反。
But what's interesting about Eliot is that she does pepper references to the wolves here and there Because she's talking about rustic dances but she's also talking about waltzes as artificial, which is quite the opposite of Therese's point.
例如她提到鸟之华尔兹，那是在1859年《亚当·比恩》中大舞会前人们讨论的场景。
She references the bird waltz, for example, when people are discussing before the big dance in Adam Bean that was in 1859.
她实际上在回溯世纪初狼被鄙视的那个更早的年代。
She's actually looking back to an earlier time where the wolf was looked down upon at the beginning of the century.
而她眼中的鸟之华尔兹是高度人工化的产物，与真实的鸟类毫无关联。
And the bird wolf she sees as something as highly artificial, that it has nothing to do with real birds.
这自然是艾略特围绕'何为真实'的现实主义议题来构建小说的方式。
And of course that was Elliot's structuring of her novel around the whole issue of what is real, realism.
要知道，她对平民阶层和贵族阶级都抱有浓厚的研究兴趣。
You know, she was very interested in thinking about ordinary people as well as the aristocracy.
《弗洛斯河上的磨坊》里的麦琪·塔利弗就因不会跳华尔兹而闻名。
And Maggie Tulliver and Milan the floss famously doesn't know how to waltz.
她只会跳乡间舞蹈。
She does the rustic dances.
1876年《丹尼尔·德龙达》中的格温德琳·哈莱斯对华尔兹的闭合舞姿有着生理性厌恶。
And Gwendolyn Harleth in Daniel Derunderen in 1876 has physical antipathy to the closed position of the waltz.
有个特定角色她想避开，尽管人们都说她华尔兹跳得很好，她却拒绝跳。
There's a particular character she wants to avoid, and she refuses to waltz even though people tell her she can waltz very well.
我想起另一个本该提及的话题，就是关于华尔兹的商业运作。
I thought of another thing that I wish I'd said, and that's the business of the waltz.
约翰·施特劳斯的父亲与出版商托比亚斯·哈斯林格认为中产阶级家庭的年轻女性都在弹钢琴。
Johan Strasse's father and the publisher Tobias Haslinger Haslinger just thought young women in middle class households are all playing the piano.
何不为女孩们出版华尔兹系列曲目？
Why don't we do a waltz series for girls?
于是他们专门为女性出版了可供演奏的华尔兹曲集。
And they published waltzes for them to play.
这些华尔兹舞曲学起来很容易。
And these waltzes are then easy because they're learning.
所以这个术语叫Leichter Musik，正是这个术语让我们有了轻音乐的说法。
So the term is Leichter Musik, and it's that term Leichter Musik that gives us the term light music.
虽然我们现在不再认为它指的是简单的音乐。
Although we no longer think it means the easy music.
我们自以为了解轻音乐的含义，所以后来又有人发明了'轻松聆听'这个新分类。
We we think we know what light music means, and that's why someone then invented easy listening as another one.
关于音乐产业的另一个话题，我本该提到安娜·施特劳斯——约翰·施特劳斯的长妻，因为他抛弃了她和孩子，她不得不接手事业。
And another thing on the the subject of the business of music, I wish I'd credited Anna Strauss, Johann Strauss, the eldest wife, because he left her, he left the kids, and she had to take over.
正是她为孩子们奠定了良好的商业生涯基础。
And she was the one that set them on very good business careers.
她曾管理着施特劳斯家族企业200多名员工。
She was the one that was in charge of over 200 staff running the Strauss business.
我想接着强调剧院在推广这些曲调中的作用，同时也促进了活页乐谱产业的发展，这种产业尤其在大西洋两岸交流频繁，不是吗？
And I think following on from that, to highlight the role that the theatre played in popularising these tunes and also in developing the sheet music industry which went back and forth particularly across the Atlantic, didn't it?
必须指出，由于他们和舞厅的大力推广，维也纳贵族开始担忧——如果去利奥波德城的斯佩尔舞厅，可能会撞见卖菜小贩之类的可怕场景
And I have to say, because they popularized it so much and the the dance halls did that as well, the the nobility in Vienna began to be worried because if they went to the Spel Dance Hall in Leopoldstadt, they could end up bumping into a greengrocer or something like dreadful
这个嘛，先生
Well Mr.
《小人物日记》里的巴特先生对此非常不满。
Butter was not happy about that at all in The Diary of a Nobody.
在《小人物日记》中，他以为自己终于跻身上流社会去参加市长舞会，结果发现舞伴都是卖菜商贩，完全不是他想象的样子
The Diary of a Nobody where he thinks he's made it because he's going to the mayor's ball and when he gets there he finds that there's you know he's dancing with green grocers and he thought that he was going somewhere
要知道他们根本不会被邀请参加狩猎舞会，或者该说是
You see they really didn't get invited to the hunt balls that Or were the hunt
狩猎活动还是别的什么
balls or something else.
要知道在19世纪中叶，某些地方仍会在舞厅里拉一根绳子，让贵族阶级能占据靠近乐手的高位，而商人阶层——当然是指地位较高的商人——则只能待在下方，两者泾渭分明。
And you know in the mid nineteenth century they were still in some places putting a rope across the ballroom so that the aristocracy could be at the high position which is nearest the musicians and tradespeople, but of course the quite elevated tradespeople, would be at the bottom and there the twain should meet.
这一切都受到非常严格的控制。
It was all very strictly controlled.
19世纪的英国社会等级制度变得极其森严。
It gets very very hierarchical in in the nineteenth century in Britain.
人们居然能忍受这种安排？
That's and people put up with it, did they?
显然如此。
Obviously.
他们并没有掀翻这种制度。
They didn't tear the place down.
确实没有。
No.
是的。
Yes.
不过后来他们采用了更隐蔽的手段，通过安排管家和司仪来确保每个阶层的人待在属于自己的区域——毕竟当时流行方阵舞，当你需要邀请新舞伴时，必须确保对方不是来自底层...
And but then I think they got more subtle means by getting stewards and emcees to make sure that the right person was in the right set because of course you had the quadrille and when you called for another couple you had to make sure they weren't from the bottom of the
舞厅的底层。
room.
真的吗？
Really?
没错。
Yes.
当你提到剧院的重要性时，我还联想到19世纪末到20世纪初的音乐厅文化。
And when you mention the theatre, the importance of the theatre, I'm thinking of the music halls as well at the end of the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century.
比如像亚瑟·萨利文这样的人物
Know someone like Arthur Sullivan was
变得相当高档化了，不是吗？
doing quite gentrified, didn't it?
音乐剧。
The musical.
是的，但后来出现了这种情况，你可以坐在绞刑架下，看着华尔兹在芭蕾舞和音乐厅的部分表演中上演。
Yes it did but then there were the, you you could sit in the gallows And as you could see waltzes being performed in the ballets in part of the music halls.
还有一些维多利亚晚期拍摄的精彩镜头，记录着伦敦东区的街头女孩们跳华尔兹。
And there's some wonderful footage from the late Victorian period of street girls dancing in the East End Of London doing waltzes.
接着苏刚才说的，你会在《佩兴斯》里看到这句台词：最后他彻底迷失了，娶了个芭蕾舞团的女孩。
Backing up on what Sue's just said, you'll that in Patience the line, in the end he was lost totally and married a girl from the corps de ballet.
这不公平。
Unfair of this.
我确实记得，研究表明那是对芭蕾舞女孩非常不公平的评价。
I do remember that, That's research has shown that was a very unfair remark about ballet girls.
好的，非常感谢。
Well, thank you very much indeed.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
哦，太棒了。
Oh, brilliant.
哦。
Oh.
哦，我明白了。
Oh, I see.
我爱
I love
它。
it.
我很喜欢。
I love it.
这里相当干燥。
It's quite dry in here.
四件T恤。
Four tees.
是吗？
Yeah?
是的。
Yeah.
那是一杯茶。
That's a tea.
非常感谢你。
Thank you very much.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
太感谢了。
You so much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
《与梅尔文·布拉格共度的时光》由我和西蒙·蒂勒森制作，是BBC工作室的作品。
In Our Time with Melvin Bragg is produced by me, Simon Tillerson, and it's a BBC Studios production.
我认为我们需要警醒，不要把这仅仅当作一个致敬人物的节目。
I think we need to be jolted out of thinking this is just a program of tributes to people.
它不是。
It isn't.
这是一次探索，我们可能不会总是喜欢发现的东西。
It's an exploration, and we may not always like what we find.
说黑猩猩真是个老套的想法。
It's such a cliched idea to say a chimpanzee.
至少说章鱼、黄蜂之类的吧。
At least say an octopus or a wasp or something.
天啊。
God's sake.
伊丽莎白·戴正在讲述法老哈特谢普苏特。
There's Elizabeth Day on the pharaoh, Hapshetzut.
继任统治者损毁了她的大量雕像，因此我们对她真实样貌知之甚少。
The subsequent ruler defaced a lot of her statuary, and so we also have very little clue of what she actually looked like.
迈尔斯·贾普讲述小说家JL·卡尔的故事，斯图尔特·李讲述吉他手德里克·贝利。
Miles Japp on the novelist JL Carr and Stuart Lee on guitarist Derek Bailey.
你必须直面一个正在辜负公众的文化所提出的挑战。
You've got to meet the challenge of a culture that is failing the public.
《伟大人生》节目将在BBC广播四台和BBC音效平台持续播出。
Great Lives continues on Radio four and BBC Sounds.
我是朱莉·安德鲁斯，非常荣幸为您带来Noiser播客网络的新节目《简·奥斯汀故事集》。
I'm Julie Andrews, and it is my great pleasure to bring you Jane Austen Stories, the new show from the Noiser Podcast Network.
我将为您朗读《傲慢与偏见》。
I'll be reading Pride and Prejudice.
我们将漫步宏伟庄园，与衣着考究的淑女共进下午茶。
We'll walk grand estates and take tea with well dressed gentlewomen.
但在这个英格兰的宁静角落，并非所有事物都如表面所见。
But in this tranquil corner of England, not everything is quite as it appears.
欢迎在任意播客平台收听《简·奥斯汀故事集》。
Listen to Jane Austen stories wherever you get your podcasts.
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