#247 - Ravi Mehta与Victoria Young：如何规模化一对一服务

大家好，最近怎么样？我是来自indiehackers.com的Cortland，你们正在收听的是独立开发者播客。越来越多的人在网上创造酷炫的东西，并在此过程中赚取可观的收入。在这个节目中，我将与这些独立开发者坐下来，探讨他们的想法、机遇以及他们正在利用的策略，以便我们其他人也能效仿。好的。

What's up, everybody? This is Cortland from indiehackers.com, and you're listening to the indie hackers podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process. And on this show, I sit down with these indie hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunities, and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. Alright.

今天和我一起的是Scale Higher的创始人Ravi Mehta和Victoria Young。你们好吗？

I'm here with Ravi Mehta and Victoria Young, the founders of Scale Higher. How's it going?

很好。你呢？

Good. How are you doing?

我状态极佳。邀请你们两位上节目是因为，至少在我看来，过去几年教练行业出现了爆炸式增长。比如我女朋友想成为人生教练，我所有的创业朋友都有商业教练，好像每个人都突然意识到‘我需要一个教练’。我觉得这简直太棒了，也许是因为最近几代人更关注心理健康，我们更清楚地认识到自己都需要帮助。

I'm doing excellent. I wanted to have you two on the show because from my perspective at least, there's been this, like, explosion in coaching the last few years. Like my girlfriend wants to be a life coach, like all my startup friends have like business coaches, like everyone's just like tuned in and like I need a coach. And I think it's like the coolest thing ever because I don't know maybe it's just like people in recent generations who are more in touch with their mental health. We're more in touch with the fact that like we all need help.

而且我认为我们中有越来越多人对自己的职业发展非常关注，特别是独立开发者们——他们意识到自己已经辞去工作，现在成了自己的老板，需要一些指导。

And I think an increasing number of us are like very conscious about our careers and especially if indie hackers are conscious about the fact that they've quit their jobs. And now they're their own boss and they need some help.

没错。

Yep.

所以我觉得你们在Scale Hire做的事情非常了不起。本质上你们是在帮助人们找到合适的教练，能给我描述下Scale Hire具体是做什么的吗？

And so I think what you two are doing at Scale Hire is very awesome. It's like you're basically helping people find coaches. Can you just describe to me like what Scale Hire is?

我们大约六个月前启动了这件事。维多利亚和我大约两年前相识，那时我刚离开Tinder，而维多利亚正在思考她的下一步打算。在随后的一年半里，我们偶尔会碰面，互相帮助完成手头的写作，讨论各自从事的教练工作。我们反复听到一个主题：许多人觉得自己缺乏获得真正成功所需的支持。我们认为这是个普遍问题，但不确定是否能在更大范围内解决，还是说这本质上更像是一对一的服务行业关系。

So we started it about six months ago. Victoria and I met about two years ago right as I was leaving Tinder and Victoria was thinking about what she wanted to do next. And for about a year and a half, we would catch up every once in a while, help each other with the writing we were doing, talk about some of the coaching that we were each doing And this recurring theme came up, which is that we just kept hearing from people that they don't feel like they have the support that they need to be really successful. And I think this was a problem for people. And we weren't sure, is it really possible to solve this at a higher scale or is this really like a one to one relationship which is more of a service industry?

当我们开始研究Peloton、Noom、Talkspace、Headspace、Calm和BetterHelp等应用的商业模式时，我们获得了灵感。这些公司在个人生活领域提供了各种便捷的一对一指导服务，无论是健身、营养咨询还是心理治疗。于是我们以普及专业教练服务为目标创立了Scale，特别采用了B2C的运营思路。

And we got inspired when we started to look at what was happening with apps like Peloton and Noom and Talkspace and Headspace and Calm and BetterHelp, there were all these examples in a person's personal life of ways in which companies were making it easier to get one on one guidance and support, whether it was around fitness or nutritional counseling or therapy. And so we started scale with the goal of democratizing professional coaching and doing it specifically with a B2C sort of mindset.

罗比，我想回到你们故事的起点。你们俩几年前相识，我知道你们都曾在优步、脸书、网飞这些大公司工作过，你还提到过Tinder。从这些大公司跳槽到创业，你们是如何完成这个转变的？你们在那些定期会面中具体是怎么交流的？

Yeah, I'm curious about like going back to the beginning of your story, Robbie, like the two of you met a couple years ago. And like I know that like between the two of you you've worked at like some pretty like big brand name companies. You've worked at Uber, Facebook, Netflix, you mentioned Tinder. How do you go from like working at these big companies to wanting to start a startup? Like what does that interaction look like between the two of you where you're having these meetings and you're catching up?

因为很多人想寻找联合创始人，他们需要足够的信心来辞去舒适的工作，去做些冒险、有风险但回报丰厚的事。你们两位是如何共同应对这个过程的？

Because I think a lot of people want to find a co founder and they want the confidence to like quit like the cushy job and go do something like you know adventurous and a little bit risky and rewarding. How did how did the two of you navigate that together?

过去五年左右，创业被过度美化了。虽然听起来很多人向往，但我在投身之前花了大量时间研究独立创业者社区，阅读Indie Hackers等平台的内容。因为我知道在种子期阶段会非常孤独和焦虑——只有你、可能一个伙伴、一个创意、有限的资金和进展。我想近距离了解自己是否准备好迈出这一步。最终让我坚持下来的，一是与维多利亚共事的机会，二是我对解决这个问题的强烈热情。

You know entrepreneurship has been really glamorized in the last I think five or so years. And so it sounds like something you know a lot of people wanna do but one thing I did before I jumped in was I spent a lot of time looking at solopreneur communities, reading stuff on Indie Hackers, reading stuff on other areas because I knew like especially in this early seed phase, it can be lonely, it can be really anxiety inducing. It's just you and maybe another person and an idea and not a lot of money in the bank and not a lot of things going on. And so I wanted to get close to it and figure out like, is this something that I'm ready to do as far as my next step? And the thing that kept me coming back was one, you know, the opportunity to work with Victoria and then two, the opportunity to work on a problem that I'm really passionate about solving, think needs to be solved.

如果能与日常合作愉快的人共事，致力于自己热切关注的问题，那些令人焦虑的初创阶段会变得容易许多。

So if you can work with people that you really enjoy working with day to day, if you can work on a problem that you're really passionate about, it makes that those early days which are really anxiety inducing a lot easier.

确实。维多利亚，你最近发推文说'真正的财富是拥有按自己设计生活的自由'。我想这正是创业魅力的一部分，对吧？这种对自由的向往。

Yeah. And Victoria, you have a recent tweet that true wealth is having freedom to live a life of your own design. And so I think that's like a lot of what goes into glamorizing entrepreneurship. Right? It's this idea of freedom.

你可以随心所欲，对吧？就像你没有真正的老板。如果你想在周三休息一天，基本上也没问题。对吧？

You can do whatever you want. Right? Like you don't really have a boss. You can you can take the day off if it's a Wednesday if you want to and it's kind of fine. Right?

但就像你提到的部分，拉维，这确实令人害怕，让人神经紧绷。

But it's also like the parts that you said Ravi, it's like scary, it's nerve racking.

哦，是啊。

Oh yeah.

在这些福利优厚的大公司里，你收入不错，但一旦自己创业，突然就没了保障。所以我觉得像拉维有维多利亚这样的伙伴，维多利亚有拉维这样的伙伴，能让更多人更容易迈出那一步——因为这不再是一个人的孤军奋战。对吧？有另一个人存在，事情就显得更真实。相比之下，像我这样大部分时间独自打拼的人，有个教练就挺好的。

You kind of get paid well with these big cushy companies, know, you start your own company and suddenly you're like you're not. And so I think having a partner like Ravi and Ravi having a partner like Victoria, it makes it easier to take that leap for a lot of people where it's like, it's not just me by myself. Right? Like there's someone else, it's kind of real. And I think like by comparison for people like me who do it like on my own for the most part, it's kind of nice to have a coach.

我有一些人，我视他们为教练和导师。某种程度上他们就像我的老板。我称阿里为我的播客老板——她其实是播客制作人，技术上她为我工作，但某种程度上我为她工作。她会说'科特兰，我需要这个，那个'。

Like I have a series of like people who I consider to be like my coaches and like mentors. It's almost like they're my bosses in a way. I call Ari my podcast boss. She's my podcast producer, technically she works for me but I kinda work for her. She's like Cortland, I need this, I need this, I need this.

我要对她负责，她会听我的节目并告诉我如何改进等等。这就像个巨大的人生技巧——如果你想创业当企业家，找个教练很重要。所以我想先和你们聊聊教练这个概念。你们如何定义教练？又如何区分教练与管理、领导力或治疗？

I'm accountable to her and she'll like listen to my episodes and tell me how to like do better etcetera etcetera. And it's like this is like a huge hack if you're gonna like take the leap and be an entrepreneur to like have a coach. So I kind of want to start by talking to you too about like coaching. How would you define coaching? And how would you differentiate it from something like management or leadership or therapy?

说到底，教练到底是什么？

Like, what even is a coach?

你知道，教练指导有时会让人感觉很抽象，尤其是如果你自己从未亲身体验过的话，对吧？这完全情有可原。我接触教练指导的契机是，当我在Netflix职业晋升后，职责范围扩大了。那时我试图完全靠自己摸索，读着《从优秀到卓越》这类书籍。

You know, coaching can feel very vague, especially if you've never experienced it before yourself, right? And that's totally fair. The way I got to coaching was, as I was moving up in my career, I was at Netflix and had an expanded scope of responsibilities. At the time, I was trying to navigate it entirely on my own. I was reading books like, What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

我努力打磨自己的技能。但从个人贡献者转向领导角色的过程中，要真正掌握向上管理、横向管理和向下管理的微妙之处，这类挑战绝非仅靠读书就能解决。就像运动员，教练会通过反复检视他们每次训练的具体表现来提供帮助——这是种持续互动、高度协作的关系，需要大量参与和反馈。

I was trying to really sharpen my skills. But when you're in that phase of moving from a smaller scope that's more IC to one that's more of leadership, really being able to navigate the nuances of managing up, managing across, managing down, those types of challenges are not easily solved for just by reading a book. Because when you think about athletes, coaches really help athletes by reviewing and going over specific things they're doing each time they go out and practice. It's a very active, ongoing, collaborative relationship, right? There's a lot of engagement, there's a lot of feedback.

而读书虽然充满好点子，却非常被动。当你自行应用时，无法获得完整的反馈循环。我团队里有位曾练花样滑冰的女士，她将经理视为教练——比如主持会议后，他们会像回放录像般逐步复盘她的表现优劣。而我从小不是运动员出身...

Whereas reading books and stuff, they're filled with great ideas, but it's very passive. When you try to apply it yourself, you don't get that full feedback loop. And so one of the women on my team, she used to do figure skating. And so for her, she really saw her manager as a coach, where they would, you know, she would lead a meeting, her manager and her would like watch the playback, you know, in their minds and go over step by step where she went, where she did well or where she didn't do as well. And for me, you know, I wasn't an athlete growing up.

这种教练式关系对我而言并不自然。我更关注是否表现良好，总是竭尽全力，却未将其视为可促进成长的反馈循环。这是种截然不同的关系模式。作为领导者，你必须敏锐感知他人，这是动态的过程——

That relationship didn't come naturally to me with my manager. It felt more like I had to just make sure I was performing well, and I was always just trying to do my best, but I didn't see it as that kind of feedback loop that I could grow in. It's just a different type of relationship. As a leader, you really need to be tuned in to other people. It's dynamic.

昨日的成功不意味着明日同样出色，这很正常。但要持续保持高水准，就需要建立某种反馈机制。当我接触专业教练后，这彻底改变了我对自我表现的认知，并提供了在需要提升领域获得成长支持的工具。教练指导是高度互动的，不同于侧重情感倾诉的心理咨询，它更聚焦当下：你能汲取什么经验？明天如何改进？

Just because you did well yesterday doesn't mean you're going to do great tomorrow, right? And that's okay, but you need to have some sort of feedback loop to maintain high performance in an ongoing basis. And when I came across coaching, it just really transformed how I viewed myself and my performance, and also gave me the tools, gave me the feedback loop to really improve in the areas that I needed more growth and support. And so coaching is very active. It's different from talk therapy sometimes, it's much more just about sharing your feelings, maybe going into the past, Whereas coaching is much more about in the moment, kind of what can you take as learnings and how can you improve tomorrow.

有意思的比喻。想起小时候看《天使在人间》这部电影，讲棒球队得到隐形天使帮助，有个孩子能看见天使。

Yeah. That's an interesting way to put it. Like, remember watching this movie as a kid. I think it's called Angels in the Outfield. And there was, like, this baseball team, and they're, like, these angels were, like, helping them, and this kid could, like, see the angels.

我总觉得这种隐形伙伴的概念很酷——当你挑战困难时有人暗中相助。但多数人没有这种际遇，而教练就类似这种存在。这不再是孤军奋战，而是有人与你并肩对抗世界。

And I always thought it was like so cool to like have like this idea of like this sort of invisible partner who's like going with you, you know, like you're trying to do this like hard thing and they're like helping you out. But like most people don't really have that. And so like with a coach that's kind of like what you have. Right? It's like it's not just you against the world, it's like you and somebody else against the world.

我认为即使在日常生活中，每个人都会做一些类似指导的事情。你可能需要指导伴侣应对工作中或与家人必须进行的艰难对话，也可能需要指导朋友。那么，优秀教练和糟糕教练的区别是什么？

And I think even like in like day to day life, like everybody does like a little bit of coaching. You might have to coach a partner through a tough, you know, conversation they have to have at work or with a family member. You may have to coach your friends. What's the difference between like a good coach and a bad coach?

我认为真正优秀的教练会创造一个安全的空间。人们所处的许多关系，尤其是工作相关的，往往带有某种压力。比如你想在老板或上司面前展现特定形象，团队也依赖着你。即使有导师关照你，这种关系中也存在压力——你想让导师对你印象深刻，想让他们觉得在你身上投入时间是值得的。

Thing that I think really good coaches do is they create a safe space. Like, I I think there's so many relationships that people have, especially when it comes to work that are pressurized in some way. Like, you wanna show up in a certain way to your boss or to your boss's boss. You have your team that's counting on you. Even if you have a mentor that you know has taken you under their wing, there's some pressure in that relationship in the sense that you wanna impress their mentor, you wanna make that person feel like they've done a good thing by investing their time into it.

若身处同侪群体中，也存在压力，我不愿一味索取而不回报。而我认为优质的一对一指导关系应毫无这些压力。它完全聚焦于你需要什么支持来克服眼前挑战。真正优秀的教练会营造这种空间，让你不仅在他们面前自在，更能坦然面对自己。

If you're part of a peer group, there's some pressure and I don't want to ask too much of the group without giving in return. And I think a good one on one coaching relationship is one where there's none of that. Like there's no pressure going in. It's all about what do you need in order to get support to overcome the challenge that's in front of you. A really good coach will create that space so you're not only comfortable with them, you're actually comfortable with yourself.

很多人由于缺乏第三方视角，会不自觉地自我过滤，也过滤对他人的表达。而优秀教练会说：让我们抛开这些，真正讨论问题。让你说出那些因缺乏表达空间而难以启齿的话。

I think a lot of people because they never have that third party perspective, they start to filter themselves internally as well as filter what they're saying to other people and a good coach will say, you know let's wipe all that away. Let's actually talk about the things. Let's have you say the things to yourself that you may not be comfortable saying because you just haven't had the space to say it. Right.

我很喜欢你关于群体参与的观点，无论是班级还是其他场合，总存在各种干扰因素——不想提问、怕显得愚蠢、不愿浪费他人时间——导致效果不佳。教育领域也有类似现象，你听说过布鲁姆的双西格玛问题吗？这位七八十年代的教育研究者发现，接受一对一辅导的学生表现比传统课堂学生高出两个标准差，意味着他们超越了98%的人。其他条件相同时，无论天赋如何，一对一辅导能让你立即优于98%的人。

I like that point you made about like when you're part of a group whether it's like a class or anything it's like there's just all these other variables that go into it's like I don't wanna ask questions, I don't wanna sound dumb, I don't wanna waste everybody else's time and you just like don't it's not as effective. And even in education there's just have you heard of Bloom's two sigma problem? It's like this concept of educational researcher in like the seventies or the eighties like was doing like studies on education and he found that like students who are tutored one to one perform like two standard deviations higher higher than students who like learn in traditional classrooms, which means like they're they're better than 98% of people. Everything else being equal, it doesn't matter how smart you are, doesn't matter anything. If you did like one on one tutoring, you are instantly better than 98% of people.

这是巨大的差异，堪称颠覆性。因此教练行业某种程度上是在利用这个发现，思考如何将其普及。毕竟我们生活在大多数人请不起教练的社会里。

And like that's a huge difference. It's massive. And so coaching like kind of feels like okay, it's capitalizing on that realization. It's like how do you how do you bring that to like everybody? Because like we live in a society where like you know most people don't have coaches.

大多数人负担不起一对一辅导。所以我想这某种程度上正是你们通过Scale Higher试图解决的问题。

Most people can't afford one on one tutors. And so I guess that's kind of what the two of you are trying to solve with scale higher to some degree.

确实如此。我认为家教这个例子非常贴切。人们从小就以特定方式学习成长，周围有老师、助教、家长和家教等角色帮助你学习、练习，并提供个性化反馈——这种模式甚至延续到大学，你可以向助教请教，遇到优秀的教授也会乐于指导。此外还有各种学习小组的陪伴。

Absolutely. I think the tutor example is a really good one. People grow up learning to learn in a very specific way. You have people around you like teachers and teaching assistants and parents and tutors that are there to help you learn, help you practice, provide you with feedback, provide you with feedback in a personalized way that even extends into college where you have TAs that you can go to, if you have really good professors, they're open. You also have like small groups that you're part of.

然而当你获得第一份工作时，这套体系突然彻底消失。除了经理之外再无人提供类似支持，虽然有些经理确实擅长辅导——这是难得的幸运——但多数并非如此。我认为当今时代比任何时候都更需要持续学习，职场不是终点而是加速器。技能迭代速度惊人，需要掌握的新能力层出不穷。而通过职业教练获得一对一反馈对大多数人遥不可及，既因找不到合适人选，也因负担不起费用。

And then all of a sudden you get your first job and that goes completely out of the window. There's nobody that you have that's similar except for your manager and some managers are really good at being coaches and that's an incredible gift to have but most are not. And now I think more than ever like learning doesn't stop when you get into the workforce of anything, it just amplifies. There's more things, you know things are changing really quickly, there's more skills that you've got to learn how to master. And the ability to get one on one feedback through an executive coach has just been inaccessible to people, both because they don't know how to find the right person, don't, they can't afford the right person.

因此我们致力于改变这种现状。我注意到当代人对此接受度显著提高，比如现在人们会公开谈论'我和心理治疗师的谈话内容'或'健身教练给我的建议'。特别是Z世代，他们渴望生活中拥有这种一对一指导关系。我认为这是双重机遇：既存在真实需求，又逢文化转型，有望让年少时受益的辅导关系延续至职业生涯。

So a lot of what we want to do is change that. And I think one of the things that we're seeing is individuals are a lot more open to it. Like individuals are now open to talking about, you know, I had a conversation with my therapist, here's what I was talking to them about. I had a conversation with my trainer and so there's this desire, I think especially amongst Gen Z to want to have those one on one relationships in their lives. And so I think it's a combination of there's a really interesting need, there's also a cultural shift that I think will hopefully mean that those tutoring relationships, those one on one relationships that you have when you're younger can extend into a person's career.

听你这么说我不禁笑了。确实有些经理擅长指导而有些则不然——比如我自己作为经理就不算好教练，这并非我的强项。你们如何看待数字化辅导与传统面对面模式的效果差异？毕竟传统上教练会当面交流...

I'm smiling when you say that. You know, some managers are good and some managers are not the best coaches. I'm like, I'm If I'm a manager, I'm not a great coach. Like, that's not a skill set that I have. What do you guys think about like the like the efficacy of like coaching like digitally versus in Because like I mean traditionally you know you would like meet a coach one on one like in person.

他们能观察你的表情，进行肢体接触，或是从旁指导。而现在一切都通过应用软件、Zoom或像这样的网络通话完成。这种形式对辅导效果有何影响？网络教练关系能达到面对面同等的质量吗？

They would be able to like see your expressions, they could touch you, you could like peek over your shoulder. Nowadays it's like everything's like done through apps or Zoom or you know like Internet calls like this one like how does that impact coaching? Can you have as good of a relationship with a coach over the Internet as you could in person?

这确实是我们半年来反复思考的核心问题，也是投资者和我们自身的共同困惑。有迹象表明，通过将辅导产品化为优质形式，完全可能建立同等甚至更高效的关系。但关键在于明确：这种形式的具体样貌是什么？哪些人际互动的精髓无法被产品化？哪些环节可以通过移动体验来增强？我们最初受Talkspace启发，他们在文本治疗领域实现创新，使心理治疗更可及、实时且经济。

So I think that's the biggest question that we've been wrestling with over the last six months. That's a question that a lot of investors asked us, that's a question that we asked ourselves. There's some really good signs that you can have as an effective relationship, if not more effective in a relationship by productizing coaching into a really good format. But what we needed to do is figure out like what does that format actually look like and what are the important parts of that human to human relationship that you can't productize and what are the parts where you can start to enable it or amplify it through a mobile experience. And so we started originally with the idea that a really interesting way to approach this problem is approach it like Talkspace and Talkspace did a lot to innovate around text based therapy, making therapy more accessible and making it more real time, making it more affordable.

因此我们最初用零代码搭建了文本辅导平台原型，用户可以随时匹配教练进行交流。但事实证明文本辅导的假设不成立：用户不知该谈什么，也不习惯教练服务。虽然偶有精彩对话，但交流难以持续。

And so our initial prototype that we built entirely no code was a text based coaching platform where people could get matched with the coach and have that coach be available to them at any time to talk to. And we found that our hypothesis around text based coaching didn't work. People didn't know what to talk about. People are not used to having a coach. They might have some really good interesting conversations but then the conversation falls off.

因此，那些曾有过教练经历、大致了解这种关系模式的人，甚至也会流失。所以我们很快在几个月内就意识到，这种模式缺乏必要的用户留存率和价值。于是我们的第二个原型围绕创建所谓的‘引导式冲刺’展开——这是一种结构化项目，每周你会学习一些内容、完成练习，然后与教练讨论所学内容、如何计划将所学付诸实践。与教练相处的时间真正聚焦于反馈，而非学习或练习。这极大地放大了与教练相处时间的价值，我们发现效果非常好，并看到了产品市场契合的早期迹象，这让我们有信心开始投入，将这个粗糙的无代码原型逐步打造成最小可行产品。

And so people that had had coaches before and sort of knew what that relationship was like, they would even churn. And so we knew relatively quickly within a few months that this didn't have the retention, it didn't have the value that we needed. So our second prototype was around creating these things that we're calling guided sprints which are structured programs where each week you have some content that you go through, you have exercises that you go through and then you talk to your coach about what you learned, how you're planning to put what you learned into practice and the time that you spend with your coach is really focused on feedback and less on learning and less on practice. And so it really amplifies the time that you get with the coach and we found that that worked really nicely and we were able to see some early signs of product market fit and that gave us the conviction to start investing and really taking that very rough no code prototype and starting to build an MVP out of it.

是的，回想我们之前的比喻——关于运动员和表现，尤其在数字异步环境中，如果没有可供双方共同回顾分析的材料，事情就会变得过于松散。此外，还缺失了人际联结。所以你缺少了两样东西：人际联结和可供讨论的实际内容。这对我们是个重大突破——找到了合适的结构：既有足够‘干货’与教练进行能推进并深化关系的讨论，又建立了足够的一对一联结，让人感受到关系中真诚的关怀。

Yeah, if you think about the metaphor we had before, which is around athletes and performance, especially in a digital asynchronous environment, if there isn't material that you can both review and analyze and go through together, then it can become too unstructured. On top of that, you don't have the human connection. So you're missing two pieces of things, right? You're missing the human connection and you're missing the actual piece of content to discuss. And so that was a huge breakthrough for us, just figuring out the right structure of having enough kind of meat to discuss with your coach in a way that progresses and deepens the relationship, and building enough of that one on one connection that felt like there was true care in the relationship.

‘关怀’是我们的核心价值观之一。如果你不关心对方，如果没有基础关系，就会难以展现脆弱、难以保持真实，而这会阻碍教练的根本目的——找到你面临诸多挑战的根源问题，对吧？

That's one of our core values is care, right? Like if you don't care about the person on the other end, if you don't have a foundational relationship, then that makes the vulnerability difficult, that makes authenticity difficult, which blocks the whole purpose of coaching, which is getting to the root cause of a lot of challenges you're facing, right?

没错。我想理解的是，单纯靠文字来回交流行不通。你说部分原因是人们甚至不知道该聊什么。就像教练需要优秀，但被辅导者也需提供话题。如果你从未接受过辅导，就会完全不知所措。

Right. So I want to understand, like, it didn't work when it was just, texting back and forth. And part of why it didn't work you're saying is because people don't even know what to talk about. It's kind of like the coach has to be good, but like as like the coachee, you gotta like bring something to the table to even discuss. And if you've never had any coaching, it's like, don't even know what are we doing.

光是和一个不太了解情况的人发信息...我很喜欢你们提出的解决方案——这种引导式课程模式，你实际学习内容、完成可能是教练布置的任务。这样双方都清楚做了什么。就像任何运动队，教练当然知道‘昨晚比赛你击球不好，我们来改进’。但商业教练、高管教练或职业教练则不然——他们不了解具体情况。

Just kinda texting someone you don't really know what's going on. I like this idea that the like the sort of the solution you hit on, which is like this this guided courses type thing where you actually go through some content, you do something that like maybe the coaches assigned it to you. And so now you both know about what was done. Because like in any sports team, of course the coach on your sports team knows like, okay, like you know you didn't hit well in last night's game, let's work on that. But like with a business coach or an executive coach or a career coach or something, it's like they don't know what's going on.

之后你们重新汇合，按描述的方式与教练交流。这太棒了——我真希望所有事都能这样。比如读书时，我可能读了一半却无人可讨论：我能和谁聊这本书呢？

And so then you reconvene after that and you talk to your coach as it sounds like how it works. And that's awesome. Like that's something I wish I had for everything. Know, like for example, if I'm like reading a book, you know, I might like read half of it and I have no one to talk to about it. Like who do I talk to about this book?

对吧？如果每读完一章都能和作者聊一小时，我对书的理解会深刻得多。但挑战在于：销售课程或材料时，我发现人们很容易半途而废。我买过很多课程却没学，书架上现在就有不少书在‘回瞪’着我——它们仍未被翻阅。

Right? If I could like talk to the author for like an hour after every chapter I read, like I would learn way more about that book. But I think one of the challenges is like whenever anyone selling any sort of like course or material, it's like what I found is it's really easy to just not do it, you know. I like pay for courses and not taking them. I bought lots of books and they're just like I see them on my bookshelf right now sitting there staring back at me unread, you know.

那么对于参加Scale Higher项目的人来说，这是个挑战吗？你们如何确保学员真正完成课程内容，并有话题可与教练交流？

So is that a challenge for like people who take who go through Scale Higher? Like how do you ensure that people actually do the coursework and have something to talk to the coach about?

最理想的情况是，当你有一对一的导师提供反馈时，这会形成明确的问责机制。就像读书俱乐部那样——因为有群体监督，你更可能坚持读完一本书。

What's really nice is when you have someone one on one who is there to give you feedback, that adds a very clear level of accountability. And so as a result you've got a partner that's going with you. It's like being part of a book club, right? If you're part of a book club, you're more likely to actually because finish the there's some accountability to the group. I don't

不想成为

wanna be

被教练问责的对象。没错。你肯定不愿做那个编造进度或只看电影不写作业的人。教练关系也是如此——你对自己做出了承诺，而有人会支持并督促你履行。

an accountability to a coach. Yeah. Exactly. You don't wanna be the guy who's making it making it up or saw the movie instead of writing It's a the same thing with coaching. Like you've made this commitment to yourself and you have someone who's there for you, who's there to hold you accountable.

整个项目结构非常清晰。我们特意把课程设计得轻量化，避免冗长内容。通常每周只需花15-30分钟学习资料，15-20分钟做练习，总共约半小时到45分钟来为当周的教练会话做准备。

You have a structured program that you're going through. So it's really clear. One of the things that we've done is rather than having these programs be really deep where you're spending hours and hours going through content, the programs are really lightweight. You have, you know, maybe kind of fifteen to thirty minutes of content that you're going through, maybe fifteen to twenty minutes of exercises that you're doing. So about half an hour forty five minutes to prep for your session that week with the coach.

之后你就能获得优质的一对一个性化反馈。另一个关键是明确预期——无论是通过邮件还是实时会话接受辅导，每周都有明确目标需要达成。这种机制极大提升了课程完成率，相比随选课程，同期群组课程的完成率要高得多，因为群体学习会产生良性监督。

And then you get this really nice one on one personalized feedback. The other thing that I think is really important here is you have the expectation that you know, either you're getting coaching via email or you're getting it via live sessions and so you have something that is a stake in the ground each week that you're optimizing for that really encourages people to go through the programs. One of the things with cohort based courses versus on demand courses, you got a much bigger completion rate with cohort based courses because you're going through live with a group of people and there's some accountability there.

我想补充的是内容相关性。在Netflix工作时我们就发现，关键是要在正确的时间向正确的人呈现合适的内容。就像你书架上那些未读完的书——多半是因为它们与当下生活脱节。那些书属于'有空再读'的范畴，若当下用不到，可能永远都不会去读。

Another thing I'd add to that is just like relevance, right? Like when I was at Netflix, we saw that it was so key to present the right content to the right person at the right time. And so even when you think about the books on your bookshelf, part of why you're not finishing them is most likely because they're not that to your life in this particular moment. They're like a nice to have, you know, maybe when you're curious and feeling ambitious, you'll read the whole thing. But otherwise, if you don't need it right now, then you may not ever get to it.

对吧？因此我们希望通过规模化实现的目标之一，就是能够在恰当的时机为人们提供真正有用的框架、思维模式和指导，使其具有可操作性和实际帮助。太多内容在当下无法付诸实践，对吧？而你知道，这正是人们无法完成学习的主要原因——内容的相关性不足。

Right? And so part of what we want to do with scale is really be able to provide the right useful frameworks and mental models and coaching in the right moment for people, where it's actually going to be actionable and helpful. So much content isn't actionable in the moment, right? And you know, that's a huge reason people don't finish it. It's it's just not relevant enough.

因此我们正在设计引导式冲刺计划和内容，旨在帮助人们根据他们当前所处的具体情境，真正实现能力跃升。

And so we are designing our guided sprints and our content to help people in the particular situation they're in at the moment to really take it to the next level.

没错。这太真实了，就像我最近读完的三本书——比如《冷启动问题》，这本书讲的全是关于如何为公司建立网络效应。我读它是因为正试图为Indie Hackers解决这个问题。这就是我现在面临的精准难题，它会让我立刻跳过书单上积压多年的其他50本书，直接跃居首位，因为它正是我当下所需。当我看到你们Scale Higher的引导式冲刺时，发现它们都极具问题针对性：比如产品经理能力提升、达到巅峰生产力、晋升权威指南或是高效团队管理。

Yeah. That's so true because it's like most of the books like the last three books that I finished that I got through, like for example I read The Cold Start Problem which is all about like figuring out network effects with your company. And it's like I read that book because I'm like trying to figure that out with indie hackers. Like this is solving like the exact problem that I have like right now and like it's gonna immediately skip 50 other books that are on my like list of books to read that have been on there for years and become number one because like it's exactly what I need now. And like when I look at your sort of guided sprints at scale higher like they're very problem focused, Like level up as a product manager or reaching peak productivity or like the proven guide to getting promoted or how to manage a high performance team.

这些都是实际问题——比如你需要获得晋升，我有个在Slack工作的朋友就因晋升停滞而非常沮丧。对吧？这时候他就会想：这就是我现在急需解决的。其他所有事情都可以靠边站，这才是首要任务。所以我欣赏你们以人们实际问题为蓝本的设计思路。

Like these are problems like if you have the problem of like you need to get promoted, like a buddy of mine works at Slack and he's like very frustrated that he's like stopped getting promoted. Right? Like that's like okay, it's like I need this right now and Yeah. Everything else can like fall to the weight side, this is top priority. So I like the fact that you've like modeled it after the problems that people have.

这是我们原型设计阶段另一个重要发现：很多教练公司都在解决'我想接受教练'的问题，但现实是人们早上醒来时不会说'我想要教练服务'。

That was another discovery during our initial phase of prototyping is a lot of coaching companies are solving the problem of I wanna coach but it turns out like people don't wake up in the morning and say I wanna coach.

是啊，这根本不是真实需求。

Yeah, it's not a real problem.

他们实际困惑的是'为什么我得不到晋升？'。因此通过采用更结构化的项目导向方法，我们能够真正帮助人们解决具体问题，而非仅仅让他们在缺乏结构和指导的情况下匹配教练。是的，这样设计完全合理。

And so they wake up and say I'm not getting promoted, why am I not getting promoted? And so by taking more of a structured program oriented approach, we were able to say let's actually help people with the specific problems that they have rather than help people just match with a coach without that that structure and without that guide. Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense.

我正想说，前几天在推特上看到一句很棒的话，大意是：你脚上有根钉子。你可以练习正念去感受这根钉子，可以去治疗，谈论钉子带来的痛苦，也可以在感恩日记里写别人脚上的钉子比你还多。对吧？

I was gonna say, saw this great quote on Twitter the other day and it was, you know, you have a nail in your foot. You can practice mindfulness about the nail. You can go to therapy, talk about how bad the nail feels. You can gratitude journal about how other people have more nails than their feet. Right?

或者你可以直接把钉子从脚上拔出来。我们希望通过Scale帮助人们拔除脚上的钉子。我们要直击根源，解决真正的障碍，告诉他们如何克服具体困难。这往往最能缓解焦虑——过去我焦虑时尝试过催眠疗法、针灸、写日记、冥想，但如果不解决核心问题，不拔出脚上的钉子，你只能在一定程度上控制焦虑，根本问题依然存在。

Or you can take the nail out of your foot. And so what we want to do with scale is help people take the nail out of their foot. We want to go right to the root cause, address the actual obstacle and how they can overcome that specific obstacle. And that is often the biggest anxiety reducer, right? I've tried everything in the past when I was anxious, like I've done hypnotherapy, acupuncture, journaling, meditation, but if you're not addressing the core problem, if you're not taking that nail out of your foot, you know, you can only manage that anxiety to some extent, but the core problem is not being addressed.

所以我们需要帮助人们掌握解决这些问题的技能。

And so we need to help equip people with the skills to address those problems.

没错。我认为这对所有初创公司创始人都是个普适性概念。因为人们采取行动的动机——至少我的理解是——我所有的行动都源于想要解决问题或满足某种需求。我不会凭空冒出随机想法。

Right. And I think this is like a broader concept that's helpful for probably like all startup founders. Because like if you look at why people take action, at least like the way that I look at it is like every action that I've ever taken is because I wanted to like solve some problem or fulfill some like desire. Right? I don't just like sit around and just have like ideas randomly pop into my head.

比如我现在喝咖啡，是因为走在街上时觉得口渴、有点累又很冷。于是解决方案就是咖啡。所有初创公司本质都一样——如果不解决问题，当人们感到痛苦并寻找解决方案时，他们很难发现你的存在。

Like I have a coffee that I've been drinking because I was walking down the street I and was like, I'm really thirsty and a little bit tired and it's cold. And so it's like, alright, solution to like those problems like coffee. Right? And every startup is kind of the same. Right?

我想聊聊你们如何构思Scale这个项目，因为很多人卡在这一步。他们模糊地想创业却不知从何入手。不是所有人都会执着于解决问题，但你们俩显然是这类人。

Like no matter what startup like you build, if it's not solving a problem, it's like someone has that pain and now they're looking for solutions. It's gonna be really hard for them to ever like find you. And so I wanna talk about like how you guys come up with the idea for scale because a lot of people get stuck at this step. They're like, okay, wanna I wanna do a start up vaguely but like what do I do? And I don't think everybody's necessarily driven to start by trying to like focus obsessively on a problem, but I can tell like the two of you are.

对吧？你们有过失败点子却能迅速转向，可能过程不易（稍后再谈），但你们似乎始终聚焦问题本身，解决方案反而是次要的。就像'我要开发这个应用，不行就放弃'这种态度。

Right? Like the fact that you even had an idea and it didn't work out and then you pivoted to something else, like it didn't seem like it was that hard for you to pivot. Maybe it was, we'll get into that. But it's like it seems like you're probably like focused on like a problem and the solution like comes second. You know like I'm gonna build this app and if it doesn't work out you quit.

你会想，我要解决这个问题，可能有100种方法。那么你是如何想到Scale这个点子的？又是如何在不同解决方案间调整，试图解决你正在处理的问题的？

You're like, I'm gonna solve this problem and there might be a 100 ways to solve it. So how did you come up with the idea for scale and how did you, I guess, pivot your way through different solutions to try to solve the problem that you're solving?

我认为很大程度上始于与他人的对话。离开Tinder后到创立Scale前，我作为Reforge的驻场高管，帮助许多人学习如何成为更好的产品经理和领导者。这让我有机会与数百人交谈，了解他们的困扰。他们真正纠结的从来不是理解Reforge框架或增长循环——这些内容已经很深入了。

I think a lot of it started with having conversations with people. And one of the benefits of, you know, the time between when I left Tinder and started Scale was I was a executive in residence at reforge. So I was helping a lot of people learn how to be better product managers and better product leaders. And so I got a chance to talk to literally hundreds of people and hear what they were struggling with. And inevitably, the thing that they weren't struggling with was, I don't understand this reforge framework, I don't understand growth loops, people got that stuff that the content at reforge is really deep.

当问题被清晰表述时，他们的困境在于：'我不知道如何将这种思维引入组织'，或'我不知道如何说服老板给我更多编制来推进工作'。在与Victoria交流时，她也从辅导对话中发现了类似模式。发现真正有趣的问题空间的第一步就是：与其独自苦思，不如去和100人交谈——虽然听起来很多，但若你愿意围绕相关话题展开对话，就能逐渐辨别问题是否存在及其轮廓。

And when well articulated, the area where they struggled was, I don't know how to actually bring this thinking into my organization, or I don't know how to influence my boss to get more headcount for me to make more progress. And so this pattern emerged as I was talking to people. And then in talking to Victoria, she was seeing similar things to the coaching and conversations that she was having. I think that's step one of finding a really interesting problem space is like, I think a lot of people try to do it within their own head. And if you just go and you talk to 100 people, like that's a lot of people, but if you just say I want to talk to 100 people kind of about this, but also about other things that they're doing related to this, you'll start to suss out like whether or not there's a problem and and what the shape of that problem looks like.

那你如何评估某个问题是否值得创业解决？毕竟人们抱怨的事情太多了。比如有人总说'找联合创始人好难'，但成功做联合创始人配对的公司却很少——这似乎就不是个好生意。

And how do you assess like whether or not a problem was worth starting a business to solve? Because like there's so many things that people complain about. People wanna be like, oh it's so hard to find a co founder. Like, I don't know that many businesses that successfully connect people to cofounders. Like, for whatever reason, not a great business.

又比如人们抱怨'Slack太吵了，总让我分心'，但也没见哪家公司成功解决了这个问题。所以你是如何从人们的抱怨中判断出'这值得我们辞职全职投入，打造能赚钱的事业'？

Or people say, like, Slack is so noisy. You know? It's just like, it's distracting me constantly. But, I don't know any successful businesses that are solving that problem for people. So why like how do you go from people who are complaining about this to like, this is something that we should quit our jobs and, you know, work on full time to, try to make a business that's gonna make money?

我们的原则之一是从其他领域学习。无论是Noom在健康领域，还是Future在健身营养领域，都成功融合了内容与一对一辅导模式。这些案例给了我们很大启发——虽然应用场景不同，但根本的问题解决模式非常相似。我们只是将其应用到职场领域，解决人们面对营养健身问题时寻求Future和Noom帮助的同类需求。

You know, one of our principles is learning from other domains. Right? We saw that across a lot of different areas, whether it was like Noom or future in fitness and nutrition, there was this model that was able to take kind of a content piece and a one on one coaching piece and combine it successfully. And learning from those domains really inspired us too, because the fundamental problem solution that you're working with is very similar, right? And we're just applying it to work in a way that addresses the same types of problems that people are coming to future Anoom with for nutrition and fitness.

因此我们只需要为职场问题解决者设计最佳体验方案。

And so we just need to then figure out the best experience for people who are trying to solve it for work.

没错。初创企业爆发的酷炫之处在于很多事充满不确定性。比如想解决这个问题，但怎么知道这能行呢？结果发现有50多家公司在做类似的事，他们可能有数百万用户或赚大钱。这就证明类似模式是可行的。

Right. It's kind of the cool thing about the explosion of startups is that a lot of it is very uncertain. Like, want to solve this problem, but like how do I know this could work? And it's like, oh, it turns out that there's like 50 other companies that are doing kind of sort of similar things and like they might have millions of users or they're making tons of money. And it's like, okay, that's like a little bit of proof that something similar can work.

我创办Indie Hackers时也这样。我在Hacker News上想：人们需要这种内容吗？看到很多人点赞评论和帖子，这就是人们需要这类内容的证据。但这能证明我业务的每个环节都可行吗？

And I know like when I started indie hackers, like I had the same thing. Like I was on hacker news and like do people want this content? And I could go see a bunch of people upvoting comments and posts. And it's like that is proof that people want this kind of content. Like does that prove every part of my business can work?

未必，但总比盲目尝试强。所以我喜欢研究别人的成功案例，看是否适用于我要解决的问题。如果适用就试试看。但并非每次都奏效，比如Talk Therapy或Talk Space成功了，但你们的短信辅导模式效果就不太理想。

Not necessarily, but it's better than just like firing in the dark. So I really like the strategy of like looking at what's working for others and then saying does that apply to the problem that I'm trying to solve? And if so like let's give it a shot. Right? And it doesn't always work out like talk therapy works or talk space works, sorry, but like your sort of text messaging based approach didn't work perfectly well for coaching right.

所以总会存在差异。我对这部分也很好奇，因为很多人创业时有个想法，做出原型后兴奋地等着看效果。结果失败了。比如你们的情况，如果没人愿意付费会怎样？

So there's gonna be like some differences. So I'm curious about that part too because I think a lot of people start something and they have an idea and they get to where YouTube where they're like okay we've got like the prototype out you know, let's see how it goes, you're super excited. And then it doesn't work. You know, in your case, think what would happen like nobody was paying money for it?

我们最初做了免费原型。让亲友圈的人通过短信接受辅导，我和Victoria亲自担任教练。发现效果不错，人们频繁互动，产生了些很有意思的对话。

We so we did an initial prototype where we just made it free. So we had people that were close in our circle and we said, look, you can get access to a coach via text messaging. Victoria and I did some of the coaching. And we actually found it worked pretty well. Like people were going back and forth, there were some really interesting conversations.

有趣的是，我们曾怀疑人们是否愿意用文字分享真实感受，担心文字缺乏亲密感。结果发现大家很愿意倾诉生活中的深层问题。效果很好，我们把收到的用户反馈放进融资PPT，对这个方向很有信心。但想尽早验证：人们是否愿意付费？特别是价格承受度。

One of the things that was interesting to us was we had the question of whether or not people would be comfortable really sharing how they were feeling in text or whether or not people wouldn't have that same intimacy with text. And we found people were really willing to share very deep things about what was happening in their lives. And so it actually was working pretty nicely. And we took some of the quotes that we were getting, we put those in our pitch deck, and we were feeling pretty good about the direction. But we wanted to get like a really early read on is this something that people are willing to pay for especially from a price point perspective.

根据观察，每位教练每月需服务客户1-2小时。因此定价必须够高，约100-200美元/月才能覆盖成本。我们为早期用户设置了200美元/月的会员费，发现多数免费用户不愿转化，但也有部分人愿意尝试。

What we were seeing, we were probably accounting for about an hour or two hours per month for each client that a coach was going to support. So the cost needed to be expensive, it needed to be like $100 or a couple 100 a month in order to pay for the coaches time. And so we added a membership at $200 a month for our early users. We found that some of our early users, many of them didn't want to actually convert from free to paid. We also found that there were some people that were willing to try it out.

我们有一批用户原本按月付费，但发现首月尚可接受，到了第二个月若没有需要解决的问题时，他们就想取消或流失。事实证明，当我们增加付费功能或强制付费后，这给我们的服务价值交付带来了巨大压力——即便是那些曾接受过辅导并知晓其价值的用户也不例外。这让我们清晰认识到：作为免费产品或许可行，但作为付费产品则行不通。市面上确实有些优秀产品以免费导师服务形式运作，但我们真正想构建的是围绕辅导服务的商业模式，确保能持续投入并打造高端服务——这正是我们决定转型的契机。

So we had a set of people that were paying the monthly fee, but what they found was on like month one, it was okay, but on month two, if they didn't have a problem that they wanted to work through, they wanted to cancel or they wanted to churn. And it turned out that when we added the ability to pay into the product or the necessity to pay into the product, It put a lot of pressure on how much value are we delivering every Even single amongst users that had had coaching before and knew the value. And so that was a really good indicator for us that like yeah this could have worked as a free product but can't work as a paid product. There's some good products that are doing this as like a free kind of mentor service but we really wanted to build a business around coaching and make sure that we can invest and have it be something premium and so that's when we decided to pivot.

没错。我特别欣赏这种通过收费倒逼价值交付的机制。就像开柠檬水摊，如果免费赠送，哪怕味道一般也有人要——毕竟免费嘛，对吧？

Yeah. I love that like sort of charging money as a forcing function to like deliver value. Like if you open a lemonade stand and you're giving away lemonade for free, like lemonade doesn't have to be very good for people to take it. They're like whatever it's free. Right?

但当你开始每杯收费5美元时，柠檬水就必须足够好喝。突然间你就面临品质压力，因为不好喝就没人买，生意就得关门。所以我认同首日就收费的理念，虽然这对初创团队来说很可怕——尤其当你们只是几个无名之辈，没有产品市场契合度时。向陌生人开口说'请花几百美元购买我们的辅导服务'，这要求实在不小。

You start charging like $5 a glass and then it's like better be good lemonade. Suddenly you have a lot of pressure to make lemonade good because if it's not good people are gonna stop buying it and you're gonna go out of business. So I like the idea of like charging from day one which is super scary to do when you're just like a couple people and you have it you have a brand name, right? No one's like you know, you don't have product market fit like no one knows who you are and you're like, hey, come pay hundreds of dollars for our coaching services. It's like, it's a big ask.

确实令人忐忑。

It's scary.

这确实是个很高的门槛，特别是对我们人脉圈里的用户而言。这些人本是朋友，让他们为曾免费使用的服务开始付费很困难。但我们还发现个有趣现象：付费会形成反馈循环——你为某物付费后，会赋予它更高价值感，从而增强责任意识与成果获取欲望。这让我们意识到文本辅导模式行不通，同时也验证了收费制引导式训练营的有效性。

It it was a big ask and you know, especially if like some of the people were in our network. So these were these were people who are friends and so you know it's hard to ask them to start paying for a service they had been using for free. But the other thing that we found which is really interesting is there's a bit of a feedback loop especially around coaching. Like if you pay for something you treat it as being more valuable and so that increases the accountability and increases the desire for you to want to get a result from it. So that helped us realize that the text based coaching wasn't working but it also helped us realize that the guided sprints were working when we charge people for those.

我们每周都能获得良好的完成率，用户非常重视反馈环节，并有动力坚持完成整个课程。没错，这里面肯定存在某种...

We got good completion rates each week and people really valued the feedback and where they were accountable to actually completing the programs. Right. Yeah. There's gotta be a

心理学效应——付费后你会更重视某物。要是我书架每本书都花了一千美元，你绝对相信我会读完每一本。多年前我和前女友在百老汇看《汉密尔顿》时也是，她当时挥霍购票，这种消费行为本身就改变了体验权重。

name for this effect where when you pay for something like you you like it more, you treat it more seriously. Like if I pay like a thousand dollars for each of the books on my bookshelves, you better believe I would have read every one of them. Or I went to go see Hamilton with my my ex girlfriend years ago when it was on Broadway. And like, I don't know. She just like splurged.

她相当有钱，所以手头阔绰。但她挥霍无度，花了几千美元买这些票。然后觉得也就一般吧。我倒是挺喜欢的。但她却说，这是她这辈子见过最棒的东西。

She was pretty balling, so she had a lot money. But she splurged and spent like thousands of dollars on these tickets. And like, thought it was just okay. I liked it. But she was like, it was the best thing I've seen in my entire life.

当然啦，如果你花了几千美元，你肯定会这么说。谁愿意显得像个冤大头呢？要是他说'我花了几千块结果烂透了'那才奇怪。所以我欣赏这种心理——人们因为真金白银花了钱，就会更认真地对待。

And like, it's of course you're gonna say that if you spend thousands of dollars on it. You don't wanna seem like an idiot. He was like, I paid thousands of dollars and it sucked. So I like the idea of of like people taking it more seriously based on the fact that they actually paid for it.

有个有趣的经济学术语叫'凡勃伦商品'，普通商品价格越高需求越低，但这类商品价格越高需求反而越大。比如劳力士手表就属于这类商品，价格越涨人们越想买，从中获得心理满足感。

There's an interesting term, I think it's called Velben goods where most goods as the price increases their demand actually goes down but these goods are ones where as the price increases demand goes up. And so like Rolex watches fit into this category of goods where as you raise the price people want it more and people get Right. Utility out of it.

凡勃伦商品就是指因价格上升而需求增加的商品，因其具有排他性和身份象征意义。你说得完全正确，这确实是门好生意。

A Veblen good is a good for which demand increases as the price increases because it's exclusive nature and appeal as a status symbol. So that's exactly right. It's a good business to be

我们正在构建的

what we're building there

对。就是...对对对。那说的不是你。

Yeah. To be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not you.

虽然有些偏离主题，但这些想法背后确实存在许多认知偏差和心理效应。我不确定具体术语是什么，但这种预先投入机制确实存在——而这正是我们在利用的。但我想强调的是，真正值得创业的点在于：你设计的解决方案能否创造足够价值？理想情况下，交付的价值应该远超收费，总价值必须足够吸引人。

But tangentially related to the ideas. There's there's definitely a lot of cognitive biases at play when it comes to, psychological effects. I'm not sure exactly what that term is, but it does increase that upfront commitment, right, which is what we are playing off of. But value we deliver, I think that's another point to make when you think about what actually is worth building a business around is, can you create enough value with whatever solution you're designing where you're delivering hopefully even more than what you're charging, right? The total value should be so compelling.

那才是你真正拥有一门生意的时刻。那意味着你正在构建的并非只是对Slack嘈杂功能的微小改进，明白吗？你真正创造的是持续产生并交付真实价值的东西，人们乐意付费正是因为获得了这份价值。

That's when you know you have a real business. That's when you know you are actually building something that isn't just like a slight variation of like, Slack's, you know, improvement to Slack's noisiness, right? You're really creating something where ongoing true value is being created and delivered, and people are happy to pay because they're getting that value.

有人不满意吗？比如YouTube开始收费后，好吧，让我们换个方式。让我们真正给这个标个价。你早期有没有遇到过朋友或客户说'我要退款，这东西其实并不好'的情况？

Was anybody not happy? Like, YouTube started charging, okay, let's do this differently. Let's let's actually put a price tag on this. Did you ever have any of, like, your early friends and customers like you know what, I want a refund. It's actually wasn't good.

是的。特别是基于文字的辅导服务，我们遇到过不少人表示'我没获得相应的价值'。他们态度很友善，但会说'每月花这么多钱不太划算'。有趣的是，他们其实从辅导时长和教练投入中获得了大量价值，但按月付费的模式让他们对价值的感知完全不同——就像单次辅导课收费200美元（45分钟到1小时），但同样的200美元月费会被视为每年2400或2500美元的支出，价值评估方式截然不同。

Yeah. We especially with the text based coaching, we had a number of people who said look I'm just not getting the value here. They they were very nice about it but they were like you know it's a lot to spend every month. What was interesting though is that they were they were getting like a lot of value in terms of the coaching and the amount of time that we were spending or coaches were spending. But there was a thing around like paying for it monthly, they didn't actually treat the value the same as if they paid for a session.

所以我们发现定价模式本身（不仅是实际成本）会影响人们的价值感知。相比之下，人们却愿意为 cohort-based课程支付数百甚至数千美元——这种形式更容易在他们心智中建立价值框架。当我们推出这类产品时，支付意愿和价值认知都显著提升。

So session with a coach might be $200 and that's like forty five minutes or an hour. But if you charge a person a monthly subscription, that's $200 they value it at like $2,400 a year or $2,500 a year. So they think about the value very differently. So it's interesting as well, because we learned like the pricing model, in addition to actual cost, I think influenced how valuable people found it or didn't found it, find it, whereas people were willing to pay, you know, hundreds or thousands of dollars for cohort based courses. Right.

这确实是个有趣现象。当产品形态符合用户心智模型时，他们的支付意愿和对价值的认可度就会自然提高。

That was something that they could frame within their mind and so when we introduced that the willingness to pay was high, the way in which they were thinking about the value was high.

没错。我向来认为教育领域是面向消费者的创业绝佳赛道。虽然总有人说'别做to C创业，消费者没钱'，但人们恰恰愿意为教育或辅导一掷千金——这是他们引以为豪的消费。

Right. Yeah I love education in general as a sort of market for doing consumer focused startups and businesses. Because a lot people are like, oh, never start a startup selling to consumers, it's so hard, consumers don't have money. But one of the things that people are proud, comfortable spending a lot of money on is education, like or coaching. Alright.

任何能让人...

Anything that, like, makes people

完全正确。

Absolutely.

在职业发展上更出色，尤其是，你看，他们可能会背负4万美元的债务，对吧？但整个职业生涯中能获得更好的工作机会，所以值得。人们愿意支付巨额费用，因为教育或指导确实极有帮助。因此我认为这是个非常好的领域，因为从一开始就能收取高价。

Better at their careers, especially, like, they see, okay, you know, maybe I'm gonna go into $40,000 of debt. Right? But I'm gonna get way better jobs throughout my career, so it's worth it. Like, people are willing to pay an extreme amount of money because it's extremely helpful to get education or coaching. And so I think it's, like, a really good arena to be in because you can charge a lot out of the gate.

而且你不用担心这对人们没有价值，因为他们确实愿意为此付费。

And you don't have to be afraid that it's not valuable to people because, like, they're willing to pay for it.

哦不。是的。我正要补充说，当你考虑升职这类事情时，花3.99美元参加一个为期四周的指导冲刺，

Oh, no. Yeah. I was just gonna add that, you know, when you think about something like getting promoted, right, like for $3.99, if you do a four week guided sprint,

你

you

就能获得晋升，甚至得到约3万美元的加薪，或者真正改变职业生涯的机会。这段时间的投入和投资绝对能带来这样的价值。只要我们坚持解决问题，专注于帮助人们实现目标，价值自然就会显现，这是完全合理的。

can get promoted and get like a $30,000 raise or, you know, something that is really career changing for you. That value is for sure being delivered, right, in that time spent and that investment. And so that's really if we stay true to solving the problem and staying focused on, you know, helping people achieve their goals, that's that's where it makes a ton of sense, where the value will automatically show up.

没错。因为我觉得每家企业都有明显的杠杆，比如在营销或广告上投入就能赚更多钱，所以值得。但对普通人来说，更难找到生活中哪些投入能带来更多收入？比如买这个待办事项软件能让我效率更高吗？

Yeah, exactly. Because I think every business has of obvious levers where they're like, if we pay for marketing or we pay for ads, we can make more money. So it's worth paying for that. But the average person, it's harder to find like what can I pay for in my life that will make me more money? Like if I buy this to do list software like I become more effective.

这有点模糊不清。不是我不知道，更像是可能吧。但有些事是明确的，比如升职，你有专门的指导课程。薪资谈判，对吧？

It's like kind of vague. It's like not I don't know, like maybe. But it's like okay, certain things like getting promoted, your your guided course for that. Salary negotiation. Right?

如果我花一千美元请人帮我谈判薪资，结果工资涨了20%，这笔钱很容易证明花得值。学习编程或掌握新技能能让你找到更高薪的工作。这些都是人们愿意花钱的简单理由。所以我一直看好教育类创业。

If I pay a thousand dollars for someone to help me negotiate my salary and I up my salary by 20% like that's easy money to justify. Learning to code or like developing new skills are gonna like put you in like a new job that pays you more. Like these are just like easy things for people to justify paying for. So I'm like always bullish when people start education based businesses.

我觉得人们愿意付费的东西也在变化。过去人们更愿意为实物买单，现在则愿意为体验、建议和指导付费，而且这种趋势还会持续演变。

I think the things people are willing to pay for too is changing. Used to be like people really willing to pay for products that were tangible and now people are willing to pay for experiences, they're willing to pay for advice and guidance and I think that's only gonna continue to change.

是啊。那接下来怎么发展？讽刺的是规模化很难，因为你们非常依赖与教练的一对一连接。要做到很大规模，未来可能需要数万名教练——说实话这很酷。我希望十年后的世界里，每个人都能为生活不同领域聘请多位教练，这样大家都会变得更好，还能创造大量教练岗位，这工作本身就很棒。

Yeah. So where do you go from here? I mean with scale higher like ironically it's like it's tough to scale because you do are like so like dependent on like this actual one on one connection with these coaches. Like to be huge presumably you'll have to have like tens of thousands of coaches eventually at someday in the future, which honestly I think is pretty cool. Like I hope we live in a world you know ten years from now where like everybody has multiple coaches for different parts of their lives because everybody would just be better plus like that's a lot of jobs for a lot of coaches and coaching is a pretty cool job to have.

如何实现更大规模？怎样让业务更成功？你对这种企业的目标到底是什么？

How do you scale scale higher? Like how do you make it bigger and more successful and what even are your goals with a business like this?

这是个很好的问题。去年秋天我们根据经验深入思考过，对规模化模式清晰了很多。现在我们正在构建三方市场平台：有寻求建议的会员，有设计短期课程的创作者，还有指导学员完成课程的教练。我们认为市场各部分——包括会员之间——存在大量交叉赋能。比如现有中级专业人士可能想转型当教练，特别是如果能用现成课程来指导他人。

Yeah, it's a really good question. We spent a lot of time thinking about it in the fall based on everything that we had learned and we got a lot clearer about what the model looks like in terms of us scaling it. And today we're building the product around a three sided marketplace where you have members who are looking for advice, you have program creators who are creating these sprints, and then you have coaches who are coaching people through the sprints. And we think there's a lot of cross pollination between each parts of the of the market, including the members. Like there are people that are mid level professionals today, but they want to start helping other people and so they might actually want to become coaches, especially if they can take an off the shelf program and start coaching a person through that.

如果你是知名科技公司的GPM或总监，想帮助初级PM但不知从何入手，来我们平台选择'PM晋升指导课程'就能开启副业指导他人，这种模式很棒。随着教练积累经验，他们可能不需要更多客户，而是需要提升时间价值——比如通过创建课程。我们正在开发课程构建工具，下一步要解决如何提升效率的问题。不同教练和内容都能发挥重要作用，我们希望Scale成为一站式平台，让用户能在不同教练和主题间切换成长。

If you're a GPM or a director at a well known tech company and you want to start helping other PMs who are earlier in their career but you don't know exactly what to cover, if you can come to scale and say oh I want to start coaching people through the leveling up as a PM guided sprint, that's a really nice way to get into a side hustle to start to help people do something that you're really proud of and it creates this nice marketplace effect sort of cross pollination between members, coaches and then coaches as they build up their practice, they may not need more clients. What they need to do is actually get more value from their time and one of the ways they can get more value from their time is by creating programs. And so part of what we're building right now is a session builder that individual coaches can use to create their own programs. And then my next challenge is like, how do I become more productive? Those are all things where different coaches, different content could play a really important role and we want scale to be a place where you can get all of that in one place and move from coach to coach and from topic to topic as you're leveling up.

是啊，听完整個過程很有趣。首先，你們這是在挑戰困難模式，雙邊市場已經夠難了。三邊市場簡直是把難度調到專家級別，祝你們好運。但你們正在做這件事。

Yeah, it's interesting listening to that whole process. Number one, you guys are playing on hard mode like two sided marketplace hard. Yeah. Three sided marketplace, you like just dial difficulty up to like expert level, like good luck. But you're doing it.

我是說，成功創業公司最酷的一點在於，它們最初和後期往往截然不同。對吧？經典的創業錯誤就是直接說『這就是我想實現的東西』，然後立刻動手打造。但其實不行，你既沒有規模，也沒有完善的所有環節，必須一步步來。所以現在可能還不是完全自動化的三邊市場。

I mean like if you're like I think one of the coolest things about successful startups is that like they usually don't look the same in the very beginning as they do later on. Right? Like one of the classic start up mistakes is to just say this is what I want to want to exist and and then you just immediately try to build it. And it's like no, you don't like you don't have the scale, you don't have like all the pieces in place, you gotta kinda get there one step at a time. And so right now it's like might not be this fully automated three sided marketplace.

這或許是好事，因為你不可能一開始就做到，必須循序漸進。你的故事讓我想起一些更廣泛的趨勢——比如我過去四五年一直在研究資本主義和商業。有個叫『馬太效應』的現象，即富者愈富。這真是個有趣的挑戰，因為我們之前說過，從商業模式來看，最理想的創業是瞄準有錢的客戶，解決他們願意付費的問題。這最終導致最成功的企業往往服務本就富裕的人群。所以如果想創辦成功的公司，確實應該瞄準有錢人。

And that's probably for the best because you can't just start there you have to like work your way there. There's all these like broader trends that like your story reminds me of too like so for example I've been just reading a lot about like capitalism and just like business the past like four or five years. And like there's this effect called like the Matthew effect which is like the rich get richer. And it's such an interesting like challenge because like going back to what we were saying earlier like kind of the best business to start in terms of business model is like you want to target customers who have money and you wanna solve a problem that they find valuable enough to pay for, which ends up pretty much being that, like, the best businesses target people who already have a lot of money, like, kind of, like, rich people. And so, like, the best like, if you wanna start a successful company, like, you really wanna, like, target people who have money.

在你們的案例中，可能是『晉升權威指南』這類產品。你們的目標用戶已是高薪科技員工，年收入20萬美元，而你們要幫他們達到30萬美元。這非常關鍵，能讓你們的業務起步。但隨之而來的挑戰就是『富者愈富』效應——所有最優質的社區、產品和服務都瞄準那些已經很成功的人。

So in your case that might be, know, the proven guide to getting promoted. Like you're targeting people who are already highly paid tech employees and they might be making 200 k a year and you're gonna help them make 300 k a year. And like that's huge. That's like what enables you to get your business off the ground. But then the challenge is like you get this rich get richer effect where like all the best and coolest communities and products and services get targeted at people who are already kind of killing it.

對吧？

Right?

我完全理解，這種趨勢有時確實令人沮喪和無力，特別是考慮到頂層1%的人群。但我們觀察到，我們服務的對象中有許多女性和少數族裔獲得的指導資源不足，尤其是職場教練方面。坦白說，白人男性往往能獲得非正式指導，而我們通過規模化服務，為職場中弱勢群體提供細緻的額外支持和指導，幫助他們獲得這類洞察——比如『該如何影響其他團隊的高管』。這類對話通常不會發生在女性和少數族裔身上，因為他們文化上缺乏這類資源。這正是我們通過規模化試圖解決的問題。

I totally hear you and it's that kind of trend can feel really disheartening and overwhelming sometimes, especially when you think about like the top 1%. I would say, one thing that we've observed in the people that we're serving is a lot of women and minorities are underserved, especially when it comes to coaching. So, you know, there's a lot of kind of informal coaching that can happen, often for white males, frankly, and for scale to be able to provide that nuanced additional layer of support and guidance for people who are underserved in the workplace environment helps bring that level of insight around, Hey, how should I influence this executive on that other team over there? Like that kind of conversation does not always happen for women and for minorities who don't culturally have that kind of insight. And so that's part of what we're tapping into with scale is providing that layer of guidance and support for people who are underserved.

是的，也許他們在職業生涯中已經相當成功，但仍會遇到天花板。當繼續向上發展時，更多取決於情商、非正式領導力、影響力等領域——這些通常不會在學校裡學到。這時你需要導師，需要有人指點如何應對那些更微妙的場景。

Yes, maybe they are already pretty successful in their careers, but they're still hitting that ceiling, right? When it comes to continuing to move upwards and succeed, it becomes much more about the emotional intelligence, the informal leadership, influence, all these areas that often you don't get that training in school, right? And you kind of need a mentor, you need that kind of insight into what might be the best way to deal with those more nuanced scenarios.

另一方面，教练本身也是一种职业。对吧？这是一份相当酷的工作，你可以自主安排时间，与人打交道，既能提供帮助产生直接影响，又能收取可观费用。随着类似你们这样的平台越来越多，我认为这种真正自由美好的职业将能被越来越多人从事。

There's also this, like on the flip side of things, like they're the coaches themselves. Because like being a coach is a job. Right? And it's like a pretty cool job where like you get to set your own hours, you get to work with people, you get to like be helpful and have a direct impact, and you get to charge a lot of money. Like it's a kind of like a really awesome liberating job that I think more and more people are going to be able to do as there are more, I guess, platforms like yours.

你看零工经济里有优步、Instacart这类按需工作，但多少有些去人性化。你很难投入热情——我朋友李坚特别推崇'激情经济'概念，而这些工作都与激情无关。没人会以整天载客或采购杂货为人生志业，这里没有个性可言。

And like, you know, you have like the gig economy with like things like Uber and like Instacart or something where it's like everyone has these on demand jobs but they're like a little bit dehumanizing. Know you're a little bit like of a you don't really get to bring like your passion. Like my friend Lee Jen is really big on like the passion economy and it's like none of these are like passionate jobs. Like no one's passion is like driving people around all day or shop for groceries. There's no individuality.

再看看YouTuber或网红这类职业，虽然能发挥热情，但属于赢家通吃市场——头部创作者占据80%份额，其他人只能争夺残羹。而一对一辅导不同，不可能出现垄断市场的教练。即便你们平台规模扩大，也必须为大量从业者创造机会，因为单个教练的承载量有限。我欣赏你们正在开创的未来：让更多人拥有这份虽个人产值有限，但对社会更有利的酷职业。

And then you have like other jobs like I'm gonna be a YouTuber or I'm gonna be like an influencer and it's like well that's cool and you get to bring your passion but like those are kind of like winner take all markets where like you know one YouTuber is captured like 80% of the market and the next person is like 2020% of the market and everybody else is like competing for scraps. And then you have like these one on one jobs like coaching where like you can't be a one on one coach who takes 80% of the market, you know. Like if you guys scale really big, it can't there can't just be like one coach who just dominates all the like it has to like it has to necessarily create a ton of jobs for a ton of people because one coach can only handle so many people. So I like looking at this future that like you're probably helping to create where there's a lot of people who have this really cool job and even though it doesn't scale like to crazy amount per person that's like actually better for for the world because there's more people who can do it.

这深刻影响了我们的产品设计逻辑。当前多数教练平台将从业者隐藏在系统背后，用户看不见平台上有哪些教练，教练也无法积累受众、无法实现个人成长。我们认为当前行业最缺失的，正是能让他们建立个人品牌、培养粉丝、规划事业发展的激情经济型平台。

And it's been really key for how we're thinking about building the product. A lot of the companies that are currently in the space around coaching, they sort of hide the coaches behind their product and so you can't actually tell who's on the platform. Right. The people that are on the platform can't build an audience, they can't build a following, they can't figure out how to scale themselves. And so we think like a really important thing that's missing right now from the coaching space is the ability to have a creative oriented platform or a passion economy oriented platform that enables them to build their brand, build their audience, figure out how they want to grow their business.

这些要素在现有平台都是缺失的。如果我们能构建好这个三方市场，就能根据教练所处发展阶段，为其提供相应成长支持。否则迟早会被做到这点的竞争对手淘汰。

All of that feels like it's missing today. If we build this three sided marketplace in the right way, we'll be able to provide that platform to coaches and help them grow their business based on the phase that they're currently at. Cool. It's kind of if you don't go that

因为教练选择平台时面临抉择：是成为无人知晓的标准化零件，还是加入能按付出获得回报的平台？答案显而易见。这理念太令人振奋了，我会持续关注你们的发展，说不定未来也会兼职当教练呢。

way, you'll probably eventually be out competed by someone who does. Because if you're a coach choosing to join like, do I wanna join this platform where I'm like this faceless like cog in the machine that no one gets to see and I have no individuality and no ability to grow or do I want to join this other one where like I can like be rewarded you know in proportion to like how much I put into it. And they have these obvious answers like the second one. Well that's super inspiring stuff. I'm gonna follow your story to see where things go and maybe I'll have a side gig as a coach at some point in the future.

最后想请你们各给正在挣扎的初创者一条建议——不必是最重要的，可以是你们亲身受益的特定经验，让听众创业者有所启发。

To close out here, what's I would love to hear like one piece of advice each of you has for you know the struggling beginning entrepreneurs listening to this podcast. It could be anything, doesn't need to be like the most important piece of advice, maybe something specific to you that has helped you that you think other sort of aspiring founders would would benefit from hearing.

我认为在做这件事的过程中，从管理一个大团队到只有我和维多利亚在房间里摸索时学到的一条建议是：在早期阶段确实充满挑战，伴随而来的焦虑感也很真实，但这同时也是一种优势。如果规划得当，你能快速行动；当情况变化或获得新信息时，可以立即调整方向。现在有这么多无代码工具，速度可以非常快。

I think one piece of advice that I've learned doing this and going from managing a big team to just, you know, me and Victoria in a room trying to figure this this out is being at that early stage, it's definitely challenging. There's definitely anxiety associated with it, but it's also an advantage. Like if you plan it out in the right way, you can move really quickly. If things change, if you get new information, can change direction. There's so many no code tools now that you can really fast.

特别是对那些从大公司首次转型独立创业的人，要每天提醒自己：当前阶段不是劣势而是优势。某些限制条件反而让你比行业巨头更敏捷高效。保持对这种优势的认知和感恩，对我们思考如何正确决策很有帮助——避免在准备不足时就盲目扩张、烧钱或招聘。外界压力无处不在：内部压力、投资人压力，甚至刷推特看到别人融资1亿美金、公司扩招200人带来的焦虑。但在这个阶段，保持小巧灵活才是惊人优势，应该充分利用这种优势积累动能，因为等到规模扩大后，调头就会变得困难。

And know, especially for people that are coming from a larger company and going indie for the first time, just reminding yourself every day that the phase that you're in is not like, it's not a disadvantage, it's actually an advantage, like some of the constraints that you have, give you the ability to work a lot faster to be a lot more agile than the the bigger players in the space. And just, you know, being grateful for that being cognizant of the advantages there has been helpful from for me as we think about like, how do we want to approach this to make sure we're making the right decisions and not trying to scale, trying to spend, trying to hire before we're ready because there's so much pressure, both there's internal pressure, there's pressure from investors, there's pressure just from you know going on Twitter and seeing that someone raised $100,000,000 and now has 200 people at their company to actually grow but you know when you're at this stage being small, being nimble is an incredible advantage and it makes sense to try to take as much advantage of that as possible before you start to scale you have more momentum and it becomes harder to actually turn

这观点太有意思了。我们总忍不住模仿那些走在前面的公司——看到大企业或融资更多的同行在做什么，就想跟着学样装成熟。

the ship. I think that's such an interesting point. Yeah. There's so much that's like tempting to copy from people who are ahead of you. Like you see like the the big companies or the people who've raised more money or who've like have more customers like they're doing this like I wanna feel all grown up and do that.

却没意识到那些做法其实比初创企业的模式更糟糕。比如大公司因规模所限，没人有时间或效率去一对一沟通客户，只能用自动化问卷——你以为也该用问卷，其实远不如你直接对话客户有效。他们是被迫采取次优方案。

And And you don't realize that that thing is actually worse than what you do as a startup. Yeah. Like for example they have all these processes and scale the fact that like nobody at their company has like the time or it's not you know efficient for them to talk to customers one on one. And so they just like do this like automated surveys and stuff like I should have automated surveys. It's like no that's like way worse than you talking to customers one on one and they're they have to do that because they're so big that they can't do like the thing that's advantageous.

所以十有八九，模仿先行者的做法都是错误的。太棒了！维多利亚、罗比，非常感谢你们做客安迪·埃克斯播客，分享你们的创业历程。

And so like nine times out of 10 it's like a mistake to copy what you see people further ahead of you doing. Very cool. Well Victoria, Robbie thank you so much for coming on the Andy Eckers podcast and talking to me about your journey and your business.

谢谢邀请我们。

Thank you for having us.

科特兰，这次对话太愉快了。

This was so much fun Cortland.

谢谢

Thank

你。

you.

另外，如果你能告诉听众们去哪里了解更多关于Scale Hire的动态，我会非常高兴。我知道你们每个人都有个人博客、推特之类的。那么大家在哪里可以了解更多关于你们的信息呢？

And I would I would love it if you tell listeners where to go to find out more about what you're up to at Scale Hire. And I know each of you individually like blogs and tweets and stuff. So where can people find out more about you?

是的。你可以访问scalehigher.com，我们有关指导冲刺项目的信息。我们目前正在接受申请。虽然有一个等待名单，但随着项目扩展和增加更多教练到平台，我们预计会从等待名单中接纳更多人。

Yeah. You can go to scalehigher.com and we have information about the guided sprints. We're currently taking applications. We have a waitlist, but we're expecting people off of the waitlist as we grow the programs and add more coaches to the platform.

你也可以在LinkedIn上找到我们，账号是ScaleHire。我们正在为那些想体验教练服务的人举办实时辅导课程，也为那些想了解更多关于Scale现有教练的人提供信息。所以你可以通过关注我们的LinkedIn账号来获取最新动态。我们在Twitter上的账号是Scale_ Higher。另外，Ravi和我也在Twitter上。

You can also find us on LinkedIn at ScaleHire. We're running live coaching sessions for people who wanna get a taste of what coaching looks like to people who wanna learn more about the coaches that we have at Scale right now. So you can stay up to date by following us on LinkedIn. We're also on Twitter at Scale underscore Higher. And then Ravi and myself are on Twitter as well.

你可以在Twitter上找到我们，Ravi的账号是Ravi_Mehta（n e h t a），我的账号是Victoria h Young（y o u n g）。

So you can find us at Ravi underscore Mehta, n e h t a, and then Victoria h Young, y o u n g.

好的。非常感谢大家。

Alright. Thanks a lot, guys.