#281 – Seth Godin谈独立创业、挑战困难以及在变化的世界中寻找意义

嘿，最近怎么样？嘿，发生什么事了？今天我们请到了一位非常特别的嘉宾赛斯·高汀，不得不说，能和你对话我真的很兴奋。

Hey. What's up, dude? Hey. What's going on? We are having a very special guest today, Seth Godin, who I gotta say, I'm pretty excited to talk to you.

他是个相当有名的人物。

He's a pretty famous dude.

我想这大概是我第一次和读过至少三本对方著作的人交谈。

I think this is gonna be the first person one of the first people I've ever talked to where I've read at least three of their books.

是啊，确实不少。你都读过哪些？

Yeah. That's a lot. What have you read?

我读过《伊卡洛斯骗局》，还有超棒的《这就是营销》，以及《低谷》。你呢？

So I read The Icarus Deception. I've read This Is Marketing, which is amazing, and I read The Dip. What about you?

酷，我读过《这就是营销》。这是我读过的唯一一本赛斯·高汀的书，不过他著作等身。感觉到处都能遇到他的身影，我还订阅了他的通讯。

Cool. I've read This Is Marketing. It's the only Seth Godin book that I've read, but he's done a ton. I feel like I've encountered him everywhere. I subscribed to his newsletter.

我读他的博客好多年了，看过几场他的演讲。他应该做过三次TED演讲，写过20本畅销书，简直就是现代版的大卫·奥格威。

I read his blog for years. I've watched a few of his talks. I think he's given three TED talks. He's written 20 best selling books. He's like the modern day David Ogilvy.

他就像是，呃，我们这个时代最受欢迎的营销专家，可能仅次于加里·维纳查克。他们俩作为知名网络营销人，可以说是风头最劲的。

He's like the the, like, the most popular marketer of our time besides maybe, like, Gary Vaynerchuk. Like, the two of them seem to be making the most waves as, like, famous Internet marketers.

是啊，太疯狂了。其实我记得独立开发者社区第一个爆红的非创始人访谈——我们以前做过很多创始人专访——是有个人把塞斯·高汀的播客内容整理成文章，标题类似'如果我只有一千美元怎么办'。他发到独立开发者社区后直接炸了。

Yeah. It's insane. In fact, I think the first viral post that was ever on Indie Hackers, we used to have a lot of interviews, founder interviews. But the first non founder interview that was, like, huge on Hacker News, etcetera, was some guy had Seth on his podcast and then turned that into an article and was like, if I only had a thousand dollars I asked Seth, you know, I asked Seth Godin, if I only have it you only had a thousand dollars, what would you do? He posted that to Indie Hackers, that shit went ballistic.

对，我们或许也该搞个类似企划。主题就是：如果你只有一千美元启动资金，没有名气没人认识你，今天会开创什么事业？嗯。

Yeah. We should maybe we should do the same thing. It was if you only have a thousand dollars, you don't have your name, nobody knows who you are, what business would you start today? Mhmm.

而我

Which I

觉得这对成功人士是个很酷的问题。像塞斯这种知名度，光是做过一次TED演讲就够出名了，何况他做过三四次。他随便干点什么都

think is a cool question for somebody who's successful because somebody like Seth is so well known. I mean, if you've given one TED talk, you're well known. I think he's given three or four TED talks. Like, anything he's

还有TED那种。

And like Ted.

几乎像是拥有TEDx资源...不对不是TEDx那种水货，不是那种'我阿姨邀请我去社区学校演讲'的场合。是真正和比尔·盖茨同台的主舞台。到那个级别的话，你做的每件事都会自带光环——人们会想：能从他的做法中学到什么？

It's almost like he has TEDx. Yeah. Not TEDx. Not like this, like, bullshit, like, my aunt invited me to this thing to give a talk down the road at my local school, like, really on the main TED stage with, like, Bill Gates and the audience. If you're like that, then anything you do, there's kind of an asterisk by it, which is like, can someone learn from what you did?

因为，你看，你的名字和现有的分销渠道是你成功的关键部分。所以我喜欢向像赛斯这样的人提这个问题，因为他能给出智慧建议，为我们这些没有那种特权地位的人提供指导。

Because, like, your name and your existing distribution channels are a huge part of your success. And so I like that question for somebody like Seth, because it's like, he'll be able to dispense wisdom and, like, how to advice for somebody like all the rest of us who don't necessarily, you know, have that privileged position.

我在想，他对自己无处不在的状态有多自觉。你听说过'7-11-4营销法则'吗？我最近在一本营销书里看到的。这个理念是说，如果你想推广品牌，就要让人们频繁接触你。'7-11-4法则'指的是：如果一个人在11个不同场合看到7小时你的内容，覆盖4个数字平台，他们就会真正关注你。

I wonder I wonder how conscious he is about being everywhere all the time. Like, have you heard of the seven eleven four marketing rule? I read this in this in this marketing book recently. It's it's this idea that, like, if you wanna get your brand out there, you want people to be exposed to you. And so the seven eleven four rule is you want someone like, someone's gonna be really into you if they see seven hours of your content on 11 different occasions, like times, and in four different, like, digital locations.

比如你有YouTube视频，在Twitter发内容，还能在播客听到你。这需要大量曝光。但我敢打赌，赛斯看到这个会说'太小儿科了'。'才7-11-4？'他肯定会说'每个数字后面加两个零还差不多'。

So, like, you have a YouTube video, you have some stuff on Twitter, they see you on, like, podcast. It's a ton. But, like, it's like, you know, if if I bet fucking Seth would see that and be like, oh, that's child's play. Only a seven eleven four. He's like, yeah, add two zeros to all

然后你就得到了赛斯·高汀。他简直无处不在。他创造的术语也无处不在。比如帕蒂·奥莱文（Patrick McKenzie）就总爱说'紫牛'对吧？

of them, and there you have Seth Godin. He I mean, he is everywhere. His terms are everywhere too. Like, I know Patty O'eleven, Patrick McKenzie is very fond of saying, like, purple cow. Right?

做营销就要与众不同，要成为'紫牛'。这其实就是赛斯·高汀书里的概念，现在都成了营销常用语。还有'许可式营销'也是他提出的，现在都成了行业术语。这个人创造了数十个被广泛使用的术语和概念。

You wanna do marketing, you gotta make sure what you do stands out. It's gotta be a purple cow. Well, that's like literally a Seth Godin book that just became like common marketing parlance or permission marketing. It's another thing that Seth Godin came up with, which is just like a common term of art, but it's like traceable back to Seth Godin. Like, this guy has created dozens of terms and concepts that, like, everybody uses.

所以就算你没在7小时11个平台看到他本人，你也会看到他的理念。只要谷歌搜索这些词，溯源都会指向他。

And so even if you don't see him for seven hours and 11 different places or whatever, like, you see his words, and if you Google them and look at look them up, like, that's what you find.

没错。我觉得赛斯最酷的地方在于他不只是空谈。他不是那种在Twitter上造词博眼球的人。他是真正的元老级人物，对吧？

Right. And I think the the thing that's so cool about Seth, in my opinion, is it's not just talk. It's not he's not just someone that that's on Twitter trying to coin terms and get, like, a lot of exposure. He is one of the OGs. Right?

就是，他，那个，你知道的，回到那个零零年代

Like, he's, like, you know, back in the in the in the zero zero

只是个老师

just a teacher.

对。他不只是个老师。他早在互联网泡沫前就开始创业了。是的。我

Right. He's not just a teacher. Like, he he was he's been around doing doing startup stuff since before the .com boom. Yeah. I

我查了些关于他的资料，因为我听他演讲，但从没听他谈过自己。所以我查了下，好吧。赛斯·高汀是谁？他是从哪来的？我想他第一个真正的成功是家叫YoYoDine的公司。

I looked up some stuff on him, like, because I hear him talk, but I never hear him talk about himself. So I looked up, like, okay. Who is Seth Godin? Like, where did he come from? He I think his first real success was this company called YoYoDine.

我查了这个故事。现在很难找到相关信息，因为那是家非常早期的互联网公司。他1995年创立时35岁，那时事业已小有成就，但还没做出什么大成绩。

I looked up the story. It's kinda hard to find anything about it because it was, like, a very early Internet company. He started it in 1995. He was 35 years old. So he's already, like, well into his career, but he hadn't done anything big yet.

三年后他以3000万美元卖掉了公司。是雅虎股票支付的3000万。那时候雅虎股票...现在不值钱了，但在1998年那可是巨款。

And then three years later, he sold it for $30,000,000. $30,000,000 in Yahoo stock. This is back in like the the Yahoo stock. Not worth a lot today, but like in 1998, like that was huge.

话说1998年那会儿雅虎可是搜索引擎巨头，就像今天的谷歌之类的，对吧？

I mean, by the way, ninety nineteen ninety eight, that's when Yahoo is like the search engine. Like, they are, like, the Google of today or whatever. Right?

是啊，是啊。他们当时绝对是最大的互联网公司，简直就是全明星级别的。市值高得离谱。

Yeah. Yeah. They were, like, the biggest Internet company by far. They were, like, the all stars. Their market cap was insane.

当时有数十亿的资金流动，他在1998年左右获得的雅虎股票价值3000万美元，到1999年可能翻了两三倍。但到了2001年2月，由于股市崩盘，可能只剩10%的价值了。

There were billions and billions of dollars, and, like, that $30,000,000 of Yahoo stock he got in, like, 1998 or whatever, probably was worth two or three times as much in 1999. And then by 02/2001, it was probably worth, like, 10% of that because of the stock market crash.

没错。

Right.

但我觉得YoYoDine真是家聪明的公司。它正好处于九十年代科技热潮的核心。那时候互联网疯狂发展，任何公司在域名上加个.com就能立刻上市，股价飙升。YoYoDine是家营销公司，这对赛斯·高汀来说并不意外。

But YoYoDine was I think it was such a smart company. It was right at the heart of, like, sort of the nineties tech boom. The Internet was crazy. Anybody who added .com to their domain name just could instantly IPO and see their stock, like, shoot up. And YoYoDine was a marketing company, which is not surprising for Seth Godin.

他们做了很多不同的事情，部分业务是代理机构。我找到一篇很酷的文章，来自《首席营销官》杂志，1999年的，里面引用了赛斯·高汀的话。

And so they had a bunch of different things that they would do. Part of it was like they were an agency. So I found like this really cool article, from some publication called Chief Marketer. They were in 1999. They're quoting Seth Godin.

文章说：'我们将促销思维引入了在线商务。'赛斯·高汀轻描淡写地说。这是个大胆的声明，但确实如此。那种'提供-响应-奖励'的流程对线下企业很常见，比如给客户提供优惠、免费试用和样品。

They said, we brought promotional thinking to online commerce. Seth Godin says that matter of factly. It's a big claim, but it's true. The whole sort of offer response reward sequence was common enough to offline businesses. So that's giving customers like premium offers and free trials and sample products.

但这在网络上还没真正实现过。所以赛斯·高汀把这套搬到了网上。文章还说：'由于网络销售尚处萌芽阶段，许多消费者对其安全性存疑，许多零售商觉得技术门槛太高。'从他们把互联网称为'the net'就能看出这是1999年的文章。

But that hadn't really happened on the web. And so Seth Godin kind of brought this to the web. And the article says with the net selling its embassy, many consumers weren't sure of its security. Many retailers found the technology forbidden. And you can tell this article is from 1999 because they called it the net.

网络。

The net.

是的。但基本上他的公司Yo Yo Dine想与这些企业合作。他们会提供促销活动，制作横幅广告，并与万事达卡合作创建了一个叫Easy Spree的平台，就像个巨型线上商城。

Yeah. But basically his company, Yo Yo Dine, would like work with these companies. They would offer promotions. They'd make banner ads. They work with Mastercard to create something called Easy Spree, which is this giant online like mall.

他们称之为商家工厂。这是个搜索引擎，任何Shopify商家...有点像早期的Shopify。

They called it a merchant factory. So it's a search engine where any Shopify. Sort of Yeah. It was like Shopify. It was like early Shopify.

他们说任何商家都能来创建完全相同的线上店铺模板，半小时内就能完成设置并开始销售产品。这让我想起Paul Graham——他在90年代中期也开发了Viaweb，后来卖给雅虎变成了雅虎商店。这就像是早期版本的Shopify，那时候人们还不敢在互联网上输入信用卡信息。

They said any merchant could come and create an identical online format for their store and set it up and start selling products in less than half an hour. So that kinda reminds me also of Paul Graham. Paul Graham also built he built ViyaWeb in the mid nineties. He also sold it to Yahoo, become Yahoo stores. So now there's sort of early version of Shopify back when everybody was scared to put their credit card on the Internet.

Paul Graham

Paul Graham

有意思，我其实一直不知道Paul Graham具体做过什么。只知道他创过业，但没真正查过细节。

and See, that's that's interesting. I've never actually known what Paul Graham did. Like, knew he did some kind of startup, but I I didn't actually look up look at look into it.

他俩做了同样的事——都在90年代把大型电商营销业务以数千万美元卖给了雅虎。希望他们都在股市崩盘前套现了。后来两人都成了作家，Paul Graham写博客很成功，Seth也开始写博客。

They both did the same thing. They both sold huge ecommerce marketing businesses to Yahoo in the nineties for tens of millions of dollars. Hopefully, they both exited the stock market before it crashed and then they both became writers. Paul Graham sort of blogging perfectly. Seth also started blogging.

他拥有全球最大的博客之一。虽然他不常提及具体数据，但我发现一篇博文提到他的博客订阅者超过百万。在2009年2月，我记得他还有25.3万RSS订阅用户。这个博客创办于2002年2月，从那时起他每天都雷打不动地发布博文，已经写了数千篇。

So he has one of the biggest blogs online. He doesn't talk a lot about the numbers, but I found a blog post that said he has over a million subscribers to his blog. And in 02/2009, he had, I think, 253,000 RSS subscribers too. But he started this blog in 02/2002, and since then, he's been sending out a blog post literally every single day. He's written Thousands.

500篇博文。有些只有两三句话或一个段落，但有些却是实打实的长篇大论。我订阅了好几年，有时候不得不取消订阅——因为内容实在太多了。

500 blog posts. And sometimes they're just like two sentences or like a paragraph. But sometimes they're like a legitimately huge blog post. Like, I've I've been subscribed for years. I've had to like unsubscribe because it's too much sometimes.

后来我又重新订阅了。你能想象我们的通讯列表有百万人吗？我们绝对会大获成功...这太疯狂了。而这只是一个个人博客，不是整个公司的成果。

I've resubscribed. But it's like I mean, can you imagine having a million people on our newsletter? We would crush it and add That's insane. And this is just like one guy's blog. It's not like a whole company.

就是一个人每天记录自己的所思所想。

It's just one person blogging about what he thinks every day.

随手写下灵感。有些帖子很有趣，就像你说的，有些只有三句话，但总是...总是那么...

Just firing off thoughts. And, like, some of his posts, it's funny. Like, you you read it. Some of his posts, just like you said, are, like, three sentences, but they're always they're always so

我是否在正确的时间出现在了正确的地点？

Am I in the right place at the right time?

嘿，他来了。观众席上的那位。嗨，塞斯，欢迎来到节目。

Hey. There he is. The guy in the audience. Hi, Seth. Welcome to the show.

这种情况真让人开心。谢谢你们邀请我。

Love it when that happens. Thank you both for having me.

能邀请到你是我们的荣幸。我们刚才基本上在聊你的职业生涯。比如，我看过你很多演讲。钱宁读过你的三本书。我读过一本。

It's a pleasure to have you. We were just talking about basically your career. Like, I've I've watched so many of your talks. Channing has read three of your books. I've read one.

我断断续续订阅过你的博客。有时候内容太多了，我就想，天啊，每天听赛斯唠叨受不了，取消订阅。然后大概半年后，又想听听赛斯有什么高见，重新订阅。

I've been subscribed to your blog on and off. Sometimes it's too much. I'm like, god. Hear Seth every day unsubscribe. And then like six months later, like, I wanna hear what Seth has to say resubscribe.

但大多数时候，听你谈论别人、网络现象、案例分析，还有世界上发生的事。我听到很多关于你自己的事，所以想花点时间，如果你不介意的话，聊聊你和你做过的事。

But most of the time, hear you talking about like other people, Internet phenomenon, case studies, like what's going on in the world. I hear a lot about like you, and so I want to take a minute, if it's cool with you to just like pick your brain about you and the things that you've done.

我是故意这么做的，所以其实不太习惯做关于自己的播客。不过我很乐意解释原因。

I do that on purpose, and so I'm not really comfortable making a podcast about me. I'm happy to explain why that is.

我很想听听为什么。

I would love to hear why.

有两个原因。第一个是，我孩子六岁时，我写了篇博客稍微提到他，第二天就有人问我妻子：你儿子感觉怎么样？这太奇怪了。我就决定再也不这样做了。第二点是，如果把我的故事聚焦在自己身上，就等于给听众找借口，他们可以说‘哦，他有特权’或者‘他家庭背景很好’之类的。

There are two reasons. The first one is when my kid was six I made a blog post that he was peripherally mentioned in and someone said to my wife the next day, how's your son feeling? That was so weird. Was like never doing that again. And the second thing is, if I make my stories about me, then I let people off the hook because they can say, well, he had privilege or he had a really cool family or he had this.

我没有。所以我努力让它们足够多样化、足够通用，但仍保持趣味性，让人们自愿参与其中，因为我不想成为英雄，我想成为老师。

I don't. And so what I try to do is make them varied enough and generic enough, but still interesting people put themselves on the hook because I don't want to be a hero, I want to be a teacher.

这是一种深刻的视角。我认为这就像在困难模式下游戏，因为对任何人来说最容易的故事来源就是自己的生活。对吧？比如，你不需要外出做任何调研。

That's a profound way to look at it. I think that it's it's it's like playing on hard mode because probably the easiest source of stories for anybody is their own life. Yep. Right? Like, you don't have to you don't have to go out and do any research.

就像是，

It's like,

我上周四做了什么？

what did I do last Thursday?

确实如此。所以你必须成为其他领域的专家。这个过程是怎样的？比如，赛斯背后的运作机制是什么？

It's true. Exactly. So you gotta become an expert on other things. What's your process for that like? Like, what is the the behind the scenes machine of Seth?

比如说，如此高产，每天写一篇博客文章，我想你已经做了上千场演讲。这些灵感都从何而来？

Like, to be so prolific, for example, like, to write a blog post every single day to give I think you've given, like, a thousand talks. Does all this come from?

你知道，去年我们的垃圾处理器出了问题。当水管工来修理时，我并没有问他——因为从来没人问过他——你从哪里获得修理这些杂物的灵感？

You know, we had a problem with our garbage disposal last year. And when the plumber came over to fix it, I didn't ask him because no one ever asked him, where do you find the inspiration to fix all these grains?

对。

Right.

对吧？他没说你有威士忌，我得了水管工障碍症，因为根本不存在水管工障碍这回事。所以我从不开会，很少看电视，不用社交媒体，每天有七八九个小时做事，别人用一半时间就能完成，但他们总被琐事分心，这又回到了责任问题。我不会轻视我的善意推定和特权。如果有人愿意倾听

Right? He doesn't say you got any whiskey, I'm having plumber's block, because there's no such thing as plumber's block. So I don't go to meetings, I watch very little television, I don't use social media, I got seven, eight, nine hours a day to do stuff that people could easily do in half that time, but they get distracted with chores instead, and again it's about being on the hook. I don't view my benefit of the doubt and my privilege lightly. And if someone's willing to listen to what

我必须说，我不想浪费它。所以我们的社区，我们的播客叫'独立开发者'，主要是关于那些不再为别人打工，开始自己一人线上科技公司的人。很多人每天上班，年复一年，每周工作四十、五十小时，然后辞职追求梦想，却连一周的工作都难以完成。我记得钱宁辞职的时候。

I have to say, I don't wanna waste it. So our our community, our podcast is called Indie Hackers. It's all about basically people who quit working for the man to start their own sort of one person online tech company. And it's so common for people to go to work every day, year after year, put in forty hours, fifty hours a week of work, and then they quit to do their dream and struggle to get anything done on the week. I remember Channing when you quit your job.

钱宁以前做销售，辞职后我教他编程，他想成为程序员。他说：'科特兰，真不敢相信你整天在家工作，我一定能完成很多事。'嗯。结果辞职一个月后，他说：'我要在中午去健身房。'

Channing used to work in sales, and he quit his job, and I taught him how to code, and he wanted to be a programmer. He's like, Cortland, I can't believe you work from home all day. I'll get so much done. Mhmm. And then, like, a month after he quits, he's like, I'm going to the gym in the middle of the day.

我在洗衣服。我得打扫房间。突然间生活充满了各种琐事和干扰，这真的很难。我不明白为什么在职场就能坐下来专注工作。也许是对队友的责任感。

I'm doing my laundry. I need to clean my room. Like, suddenly, life becomes all these other chores and distractions, and it's really hard. I don't know what it is about the workplace where we can sit down and focus. Maybe it's accountability to our teammates.

但当我们像你一样为自己工作时，塞斯，很难...你说得轻松，实际上很难排除这些干扰，就是那种阻力，

But once we're working for ourselves like you do, Seth, it's hard to yeah, you make it sound easy, it's hard to put those distractions aside and just resistance,

对吧？你读过普莱斯菲尔德的书。阻力就是当我们直视太阳时拖住我们的东西。我说的琐事不止是钱宁的洗衣活——虽然钱宁可能衣服洗得很棒。

right? You've read Pressfield. Resistance is the thing that when we stare into the sun, it holds us back. And what I mean by chores is more than Channing's laundry. Though Channing probably does an excellent job on his laundry.

家务活还包括寄账单、维护服务器，以及任何能通过写下规范来完成的工作。作为独行者难以做到这些的原因是，如果你开始花钱雇人节省时间，就意味着你的时间价值必须高于你为解决这个问题所花的钱。那些年我作为挣扎的自由职业者时，做了太多杂务，好处是我学会了很多技能，但坏处是我每天只有几小时能真正高效工作，其余时间都在为这个自由职业者做后勤。

Chores also include sending out bills. They include maintaining your servers. They include any job where you can write down the spec to get it done. And the reason it's hard as a soloist to do that is if you start spending cash money to get people to save you time, you are on the hook to have your time be more valuable than the money you just spent to solve the problem. And all those years I was a struggling freelancer, I did so many chores, which was good in the sense that I learned how to do a bunch of stuff, but it was bad because I only had a couple hours a day to be a productive freelancer and I was spending the rest of the time being the support staff for that freelancer.

所以我对外包毫无意见。唯一不能外包的是你希望别人看重你的部分——那必须由你自己来完成。

And so I don't have any problem with outsourcing. The one thing you can't outsource is the thing you want people to value from you. That has to come from you.

你是如何迅速进入那个阶段的？过程中有没有必须学习的关键经验？

How sort of swiftly did you did you move into that phase and, you know, whether was there anything you learned that you had to learn to get there?

哦，好的。我认为这是个两阶段过程：首先是养成寻找困难部分的习惯。当你为别人工作时，这种行为几乎得不到回报。健身房里的那些身材好的人，都是主动寻找困难训练的人。

Oh, okay. So I I think it's a two part process. The first part is getting in the habit of seeking out the hard parts. And at work there's very little reward for that when you work for somebody else. At the gym the only people who are fit are the people who sought out the hard parts.

这就是他们去健身房的原因。就像我以前去健身房时，会看到有人待三小时，结果在饮水机和器械间晃悠，实际锻炼只有六分钟——因为他们逃避困难的部分。

That's why they went to the gym. Like back when I would go to the gym, there would be people you'd see them there for three hours and between going to the drinking fountain and walking over to the power, they worked out for six minutes, right? Because they were avoiding the hard part.

嗯，这就是我和健身房的写照。

Mhmm. That's me and the gem.

但想想那些创意大师们——我刚读完赫比·汉考克的自传——无论是迪伦、莱昂纳德·科恩还是作家们，他们都说'我试图逃避的部分正是我存在的意义'。要学会享受并期待那个部分。当这成为习惯后，神奇的是它就不再那么困难了。以我为例，我写了大约100篇博客后，才终于有一篇听起来像真正的我。

But if we think about the creative greats, you know, I just finished Herbie Hancock's autobiography the other day. If we think about people like Dylan or like Leonard Cohen or writers, they say the part that I'm trying to avoid is the reason I am here. Let me figure out how to relish that, look forward to that. So then once it becomes a habit, here's the amazing thing, it stops being that hard. So in my case, it took me about a 100 blog posts before I wrote a blog post that sounded like me.

当我终于认清自己的声音特质后，我整天都在给自己构思博客文章，却又不断否决它们——不是因为写作难度，而是因为它们听起来不像我的风格。一旦找到属于自己的节奏，创作就会充满乐趣，但同时也令人沮丧，因为我开始怀念那些曾经困难的环节，现在它们变得太简单了。所以我必须开启新项目，让自己重新处于能力不足的状态，才能找回那种感觉。

And then once I knew what I sounded like, I proposed blog posts all day long to myself and I regularly reject them not because they're hard to write because they don't sound like me. And once you got the groove, then it's just joyful because the thing you know and frustrating because now I miss the hard parts because they're not hard. So I have to go do a new project where I'm incompetent so that I can get that feeling back.

你有一篇关于过程与结果的文章让我深有共鸣。这个观点我在其他地方也见过，你用的比喻很生动：就像体育迷看比赛时只关注结果——我的球队必须赢，否则我就会难过；赢了才会开心。

There's this one of your posts that resonated with me was I think you called it process versus outcomes. And it's I've seen this idea in a few other places too where, you know, I think I think the analogy you painted was like certain people, like a sports fan, goes to the game thinking about the outcome. I want my team to win. And they've predetermined if my team doesn't win, I'm going to be sad. If they do win, I'm gonna be happy.

而像科学家这样的职业则更注重过程本身。他们遵循特定方法，信任这个过程。无论结果如何，只要投入了应有的努力，他们都能坦然接受。这在某种程度上确实成立。

Whereas other professions are a lot more process oriented like a scientist. You're committed to a very particular process. You trust in that process. Whatever the outcome is going to be, you're going to be able to live with that regardless as long as you put the inputs in, you're not worried about the outcome so much. And that's true to some degree.

当然，每个科学家都渴望在《自然》杂志发表论文。但对创业者来说这很难，因为大多数人创业时想着致富、辞职或做自己喜欢的事——这些都是结果导向。当目标如此难以实现时，要求人们不去想结果真的会让人焦虑。

Of course, every scientist wants to get published in nature and whatnot. But I think for entrepreneurs, it's really hard because most people who start to become entrepreneurs, they want to get rich or they want to quit their job or they want work on what they want to work on. They want to be a success. And that's an outcome. And it's really, I think, nerve wracking for a lot of people to sit down and try not to think about that outcome when it's so hard to achieve.

大多数创业者都会失败。我很好奇你职业生涯中如何思考这个问题？你是真正的过程导向者吗？能完全不去想结果吗？你认为其他人能在多大程度上做到这点？

Most entrepreneurs don't succeed. I wonder how you think about this with your career. Are you really process oriented? Do you really just sit down and not think about outcomes? And to what degree, like, do you think others can think about that?

因为成功实在太难了。

Because it's just so difficult to succeed.

我在《练习》一文中写过这个观点。佛教的执着概念很重要：如果我们三人想保持间距横穿城市，只需保持视线接触和六英尺距离会很轻松。但如果用长绳绑在一起就会很困难，因为每个人的动作都会牵扯他人。就像体育比赛中，球队胜负根本不受你控制。

So I wrote about this in the practice. I think that there's the Buddhist idea of attachment is really important. If the three of us wanted to run from here across town and be near each other, if we just kept an eye on each other and stayed about six feet apart, it would be very easy. But if we attached to each other with a long rope, it would be really hard because everybody's movement would jerk us around. And your team winning is out of your control when you're playing a sport.

你能掌控的是你是否以对方能接住的方式将球传给右翼球员？因此你需要反馈循环。科学家需要看到每个实验的结果来判断他们的流程是否有效。所以，你知道，我一开始失败了很多次，因为我忽视了我想销售的对象。我完全错误地信奉了‘为自己创作，保持真实’的理念。

What's in your control is did you make the pass to that other right winger in a way that they could receive the pass? So you need feedback loops. The scientist needs to see the result of each experiment to find out if their process is any good. And so, you know, I failed a lot at the beginning because I was ignoring the people I was trying to sell to. I had bought into the make it for yourself, be authentic thing, which is completely wrong.

我需要为他们创作。我需要为他们呈现他们愿意购买的表演。所以我需要关注那些东西为何卖不出去的线索。但一旦有了出版合作伙伴，我就需要忽略书是否畅销，因为那多少是个随机事件。而执着于随机事件会让我们忽视流程本身。

I needed to make it for them. I needed to put on a show for them that they wanted to buy. So I needed to pay attention to the clues of why things weren't selling. But once I had publishing partners, I needed to ignore whether or not the book sold a lot of copies because that's a somewhat random event. And being attached to random events takes our eye off the process.

所以两者都需要。你不能在没有方向盘和路缘反馈的情况下开车，但如果你必须确保从这里到托莱多一路畅通无阻才能开车，那也永远开不了车。

And so it's both. You need a you can't drive a car without feel from the steering wheel and the curb, but you also can't drive a car if you need to make sure that there's no traffic jams between here and Toledo. It's never gonna happen.

你刚才可能已经回答了这个问题，但这是我一直思考的问题，因为我读过你很多作品，你谈到每个人都想保持真实与为观众服务之间的张力。然而你——我想这很出名——尽管你坚持写博客，却关闭了评论区。你提到过你不想为了写作而写作，不想成为流水线写手，对吧？

You and maybe you just answered this question, but it's something that I've thought about because I've read a lot of your work and you speak about this tension between everybody wanting to be authentic, but then you're you're here to serve your audience. And yet you've I think famously, as much as you blog, you've turned off your comment section. And you've mentioned that, you know, you don't want to be writing. You don't wanna be a hack. Right?

你不想仅仅为了获取互动而写作。这是否与你基本上已经想通了有关？现在一旦你明白自己需要做什么以及如何执行，其他事情就都是干扰了？

You don't wanna just be writing things just for the sake of getting engagements. And is that connected to you figured it out for the most part, and and now once you figured, you know, out how what you need to do and how to execute, everything else is a bit of a distraction?

噢，我什么都没想通。我认为我意识到自己众多性格缺陷之一是匿名喷子真的会让我很恼火。当时的情况是匿名喷子在我博客上留言，而我读这些评论时还以为自己能因此成为更好的博主。结果却只是让我再也不想写博客了——谁会邀请别人到自家客厅往地板上倒垃圾呢？所以我唯一能继续写博客的方式就是关闭评论。

Oh, I didn't figure anything out. I think that what I I realized that one of my many personality defects is anonymous trolling really gets under my skin. And so what was happening was anonymous trolls were writing comments on my blog, and I would read them thinking I was gonna be a better blogger as a result. And instead, just didn't wanna blog anymore because why would you invite someone into your living room to dump crap on the floor? So the only way I could have a blog is if I had no comments.

我不必招待喷子。他们可以去别处。但反馈、建议与愤怒的批评是不同的。如果有人给你的书打一星，他们不是在说讨厌这本书，而是在说这本书不适合他们。

I don't have to host the trolls. They can go somewhere else. But feedback, advice is different than angry criticism. If someone gives you a book a one star review, they're not saying they didn't like the book. They're saying the book wasn't for them.

对于独立软件创业者来说，这个理念再重要不过了。你不需要所有人。你不可能拥有所有人。就连WhatsApp也没能做到全覆盖。你只需要服务那些真正需要你的人。

And for the solo software entrepreneur, this could not be a more important idea. You don't need everyone. You will not have everyone. Even WhatsApp didn't have everyone. You will have the people who it's for.

如果有人表示'这不适合我'，你不必试图解释。你应该说谢谢。感谢你直言这不适合你。去那边看看吧，或许那里才有你要的东西。

And if someone says this isn't for me, you shouldn't try to explain yourself. You should say thank you. Thank you for telling me it's not for you. Go over there. That might be for you.

这本书是为真正需要它的人准备的。所以我不会主动寻找新读者。我的意思是，虽然我有新博客和新书要出版，但我想告诉现有读者《意义之歌》已经问世。但我不会强求从未接触过我作品的人去阅读，因为他们很可能无法理解。

This is for people who want this. And so I don't seek out new readers. I mean, I got a new blog, a new book coming out and I wanna talk to my existing readers that the Song of Significance is here. But I'm not trying to get people who have never read my work to go read it because they probably won't get it.

这是个很好的转折点——我们从一直追问你个人情况（虽然你并不喜欢）转向聊聊你的新书《意义之歌》。它什么时候出版？

So this is a good good point to switch over from exclusively asking you about yourself, which we've been doing even though you don't love it, to talking about your new book. It's called The Song of Significance. When does it when does it come out?

5月30日周二正式发售。录制有声书差点要了我的命，这又是另一个故事了。但这本书很个人也很紧迫，是对抗机械化生活的呐喊，揭露虚假指标和晚期工业资本主义的残酷性。

It's out Tuesday, May 30. And the audiobook almost killed me recording it, which is a whole other story, but it's personal and it's urgent. It's a rant about bringing humanity back to our days as opposed to being cogs in a machine. It's about false proxies, and it's about the brutality of late stage industrial capitalism.

没错，你来对节目讨论这些话题了。此刻我们正与成千上万观众对话，他们最大的梦想就是摆脱大公司束缚自主创业。而你的书提供了独特视角——我在媒体资料里读到导言说：'当我们把尚未被外包或自动化替代的每个员工都机械化、流程化并严密监控时...'这与当前AI发展浪潮高度相关。

Yeah. You've come on the right show to discuss these topics because we're literally talking to tens of thousands of people right now who are their number one dream is to basically stop working for the man, stop working these big companies and do their own thing. And I think your book takes a little bit of a different angle. And the media kit that you've sent us. I read the intro and it says, as we mechanize and routinize and surveil every employee, we haven't already replaced outsourced or automated, which is very relevant with all these new AI developments we're having.

工作已今非昔比。老板让员工失望的速度，丝毫不亚于员工令老板失望的速度。我见过太多类似故事：有人悄悄躺平，有人身兼数职——他们发现可以远程糊弄工作，而根本没人关心。

It's become clear that work isn't what it used to be. Bosses are letting their employees down just as quickly as employees seem to be letting down their bosses. And so I've seen a lot of stories like this. People are quite quitting. People are getting two and three jobs because they've realized they can phone it in at one job and they're working remote now and people just don't care.

没错。关键在于我能逃脱什么惩罚？这不是重视工作，也不是重视员工。而你却说这个词里有分叉。

Right. It's about what can I get away with? It's not about valuing the work. It's not about valuing employees. And you said there's a fork in the word.

要么我们竞相堕落，让工作更加消磨灵魂、令人麻木且可替代；要么我们选择追求意义。我认为你的书很大程度上是为那些经营公司或管理他人的人写的，探讨如何为自己创造更美好的世界。而在Indie Hackers，我们的态度是：去他的，直接辞职。辞掉工作，开创自己的事业，为自己工作。

Either we race to the bottom and we make work more soul sucking, innervating and fungible or we decide to choose significance instead. And so I think a lot of what your book is about is about for people who run companies or manage people, like how can we make a better world for ourselves. And I think what we're doing at Indie Hackers is we're just like, screw all that, just quit. Quit your job. Go start your own thing, work for yourself.

这些正在让你失业的自动化技术，同样可以被创业者用来提高生产力。对此你怎么看？这是反乌托邦的噩梦吗？这是我们希望看到的趋势吗，还是有更好的方式？

All these same technologies that are automating you out of your job, can use to be more productive as an entrepreneur. What do you say to that? Is that like a dystopian nightmare? Is that where we want to see things going, or is there a better way?

哦，我认为小写的市场驱动型资本主义是我们改善现状的唯一途径。作为个体创业者，你必须倾听市场。你不能命令别人按你说的做，也不能试图收购竞争对手。你必须说：我有实用价值。

Oh, I think small c market driven capitalism is the only way that I can see how we're gonna make things better. If you are a solo entrepreneur, you have to listen to the market. You cannot command people to do what you say. You cannot seek to buy out your competition. You have to say, I have something of utility.

想要就拿走。如果不想要，我最好改进它。作为一个断断续续做了四十年个体户的人，这很刺激。我认为区分自由职业者和创业者很重要。很多像我这样的自由职业者并不试图建立一个离开自己也能运转的实体，不寻求外部投资，也不打算出售资产。

If you want it, here it is. And if you don't, I better make it better. And as somebody who has been a soloist off and on for forty years, it's thrilling. It's important, I think, to differentiate between freelancers and entrepreneurs. A lot of freelancers like me aren't trying to build an entity that works when they're not there, are not seeking outside investment and then be able to sell an asset.

那是创业者做的事。自由职业者会说：我是这场秀的主角。不必署我的名，但这就是我，我要利用自己来获得更好的客户，解决更有趣的问题，并因此获得合理报酬。一个自由职业者若误以为自己是创业者，就会做创业者做的事——融资、扩张等等，但实际上你的生意在自由职业时如鱼得水，当创业者时却举步维艰。举个完全非科技的例子：如果你在家用烤箱手工制作价值4000美元的婚礼蛋糕，那么租用6000平方英尺的场地、雇佣12个人成立婚礼蛋糕公司就是个错误。

That's what entrepreneurs do. Freelancers say, I am the star of this particular show. Don't have put my name on it, but it's me, and I'm going to leverage me to get better clients, to solve more interesting problems and to get paid fairly for doing so. The danger of being a freelancer who thinks you're an entrepreneur is you will do all the things entrepreneurs do, raise money, scale, etcetera, when you actually have a business that sings when you're a freelancer and stumbles when you're an entrepreneur. So, an example that isn't tech at all is if you bake wedding cakes in your home kitchen and you from scratch build $4,000 wedding cakes, it would be a mistake for you to take a 6,000 square foot facility, hire 12 people, and build Wedding Cakes Incorporated.

因为让你出色的特质，现在反而会让你变得平庸。

Because the very thing that made you great is now gonna make you not great.

这让我想到，我们不妨称之为‘度假界的麦当劳’，这是人们将服务产品化的一种方式——他们先自己摸索如何运作，然后创建一套所谓的‘定制主义’，也就是为所有环节制定标准操作流程，再让人按部就班地执行。他们表现得越机械化，对我就越有利。

That reminds me of, let's call it the McDonald's of vacation, which is one way that people productize their services is they say, well, let me figure out how to do it myself, then let me sort of create this, you know, what is it, tailorism, right, create the the the standard operating procedures from head to toe of everything that I do, and then have basically people come in. And the more robotic they act, the better it is for me.

这确实是种赚钱的正当方式，但我不认为这是能让你引以为豪的生活方式。像开飞机或炸薯条这类机械化工作，早就被人研究透了。我们不需要你来做这些，我们需要你带来独特、创新且灵活的贡献，因为世界变化太快，大公司和巨头们来不及反应，但你可以。

That's a legitimate way to make money. I don't think it's a legitimate way to live the life you wanna be proud of. And most of the mechanized jobs that, like flying an airplane or getting french fries, they've people have figured those out. We don't need you to do that. What we need you to do is bring something special and innovative and flexible to the table because the world is changing so fast that the big people, big companies can't figure out what to do in time, but you can.

另一个关键点是——当今很多人仍不理解——网络效应直到二十年前才真正发力。网络效应是指：当更多人使用你的产品或服务时，它是否变得更有价值？比如我向人推荐理财顾问或足弓垫，我的生活不会改善；但如果邀请他们加入我正在用的社交网络，我的生活确实会因他们的存在而变得更好。

And the other piece of it, which I just, so many people in this day and age don't understand, the network effect really didn't hit its stride until twenty years ago. The network effect is, does your product or service work better if other people are using it too? So if I tell people about my financial advisor, my life will not get better. If I tell people about my doctor Scholl's insoles, my not my life will not get better. But if I tell people I'm using this social network and they should join me, my life will get better because they are there too.

正是网络效应塑造了我们当下的世界。如果今天从零开始，我不会重复四十年前的做法。我会构建社群，运用科技，开展对话。

And the network effect built the world we are in right now. And if I was starting from scratch today, I wouldn't do what I did forty years ago. I would build communities. I would use tech. I would use discourse.

我会用这类工具说：这里有3000、5000或20000人愿意付费加入这个圈子。而作为发起人、组织者和文化创造者，我理应获得丰厚的回报。

I would use tools like that to say, here are 3,000 or 5,000 or 20,000 people who will pay to be part of this circle of people. And I, as the ringleader, organizer, and creative culture will get paid more than fairly to do that.

那么你认为社群运营更偏向创业还是自由职业？因为某种程度上，作为社群组织者需要全身心投入。很多社群一旦失去领袖就会直接消亡。

So do you think of community as more squarely entrepreneurship or freelancing? Because to some degree, being the community organizer, like you're bringing yourself to this. A lot of communities just die outright when the leader leaves.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就像一个部落或一群人追随某个共同愿景。大家都很相似，但必须有人作为核心凝聚这一愿景。同时人们也能从彼此身上获得巨大价值，这就是网络效应。所以一方面，你可能是个自由职业者，对吧？

It's almost like a tribe or just a group of people that follows a particular vision. And everyone's similar, but there has to be someone at the core uniting that vision. But also people get a lot of value from each other because that's the network effect. And so on one hand, like, maybe you are a freelancer. Right?

你通过投入时间为这个社区创造价值、连接人群。但另一方面，现在人们可以编程开发各种工具和产品。你可以构建出即使你不在场也能持续运作的东西。是的，当钱宁和我睡觉时，黑客论坛上仍有人在发布联合创始人邀约、合作伙伴交流、创意碰撞、互相评审网站等等。

You're trading your time to bring value to this community to connect people. But on the other hand, there's so many tools and products that people can code now. You can build something that that does work when you're not there. Yep. When Channing and I go to sleep there are people on hackers posting meeting co founders meeting partners exchanging ideas reviewing each other's websites etc.

那么哪些校园属于这种情况？还是说我们正好卡在中间地带？

So like which which campuses fall into or are we squished right in between?

不，这是个绝佳的转型范例。没人知道谁在运营匿名戒酒会，因为它是匿名的；也没人在乎体重观察者协会的所有者是谁。它始于一个使用工具的自由职业者，但你不必说'这是来和某某人聚会的地方'，而可以说'这是大家互相交流的地方'。就像开酒吧的人最初可能是单干，但如果酒吧运营良好，他们就不必天天去上班。

No, it's a brilliant example of how it could transition. So nobody knows who runs Alcoholics Anonymous because it's anonymous and nobody cares who owns Weight Watchers. So yeah, it begins with a freelancer who's using tools, but you don't have to say, this is the place to come hang out with so and so. You can say this is the place to hang out with each other. Just like the person who starts a bar, that person may start out as a soloist, but if the bar is working, they don't have to go to work every day.

科技将这种模式放大了，社区应该比创始人更庞大、更有活力。而我们还没有建立起所有需要的社区，甚至远未填补这个空白。

And the same thing is now amplified by tech, that the community should be bigger and more vibrant than the founder, and we don't have all the communities we need yet. And we're not even close to filling that void.

世界上本可以存在却尚未出现的社区数量惊人——10人、100人、千人规模的都有。由于互联网让全球人们得以连接，如果我想在自己城市创建社区会很困难。不过我住在西雅图，城市很大，可能没那么难。

There's a ridiculous number of, like, 10 person, 100 person, thousand person communities that could exist that don't exist. And because the Internet allows people from all over the world to connect, like, if I wanted to start a community in my town, it'd be hard. Right? Well, I live in Seattle. It's pretty big, so maybe not that hard.

但你可以在互联网上创建最小众的爱好者社区。人们甚至...

But you can start, like, the most niche enthusiast communities on the Internet. People don't even

是的。

Yeah.

你甚至意识不到自己能变得多么小众，你能把那些永远想不到会遇到同好的人联系起来——比如那些喜欢橘色头发、能在水下呼吸的日本玩偶之类的人。当你把他们联系起来后，突然间他们就愿意付费相聚了。所以我完全同意你的观点，我认为社群被严重低估了。另外针对你提到的，你在书中提出的核心问题之一是：如果我们创造出自己梦寐以求的最佳工作会怎样？

Aren't even aware of just how niche you can get, and you can connect people who, like, would never in a million years think they can meet somebody else who's also into Japanese dolls that have orange hair and can, you know, breathe underwater or whatever it is. And you connect them and then suddenly, you know, they'll pay to be together. So I I totally agree with you. I think community's underrated. And I also think to your point, one of the big questions you ask in your book is, what if we created the best job we ever had?

在这个世界里，人们正被压榨成零工劳动者，被剥夺人性化的特质，被当作资源或数字对待。我认为社群几乎是每个人都能参与的最佳工作/事业形态，因为它对所有人都有积极意义——这是关于人际关系，关于共同兴趣的。

We have this world where people are being, like, like, squished into these gig worker jobs and and personalize them and take away from, like, what makes them human. They're treated like a resource or, like, a number. I think community is one of the best jobs slash, like, businesses almost anyone can participate in because it's kind of, like, positive for everybody. It's relationships. It's shared interests.

这是人与人的联结，无法被自动化。没有人的社群...我是说虽然可能存在由一堆AI互相交流的AI社群，但除此之外，没有人的社群就不复存在。所以我想请教你：该如何拓展这个理念？创造梦寐以求的最佳工作究竟意味着什么？

It's a human connection. It's not automatable or community without people is I mean, I'm sure somebody out there has made some sort of AI community that's just a bunch of AIs talking to each other. But excluding that, community without people is not a thing. And so I guess my question for you is, like, how do you expand this principle, this realization? Like, What does it mean to create the best job you ever had?

或者对创业者而言，创建一家良善企业意味着什么？该如何设计人生？

Or if you're an entrepreneur, what does it mean to create the business that's good? How do you design a life?

科特兰，在我看来，像你我这样的人会从组织社群中获得巨大满足感。但也有人对此毫无兴趣——他们可能更想写个像OSEN音频（我几乎天天用的最佳音频编辑器）这样的代码。他们不透露姓名，也不与人互动，对吧？

So it feels to me, Cortland, like folks like you and I would get great satisfaction from organizing a community. There are other people who aren't gonna find anything positive in that at all. They might wanna write a piece of code like OSEN audio, which I use almost all the time, that is the best editor for sound files. But I don't know these people's names and they don't interact with anybody. Right?

所以『最佳工作』涵盖的范围非常广。但至少我们要有足够的自信去定义它：你希望每天邮箱爆满还是空空如也？你想要隐姓埋名还是站在台前？你渴望哪种互动方式？

So there's all these this whole range of things that would be the best job you ever had. But let's at least find enough confidence to describe what that is, right? Do you want a day where your inbox is full or do you want a day where your inbox is empty? Do you want to have anonymity or do you want to be in front of people? What kind of interaction?

有些人很喜欢和喷子争论，有些人则不然。对吧？所以你可以找到能让你持续多年投入热情并为之奋斗的事业。但有一件事你不能做，就是想着‘我要把爱好当工作。我要拿高薪，还不想和客户打交道。’

Some people really like talking to trolls, some people don't. Right? So you can figure out what would light you up that you could commit for years at a time and go build that work. And the one thing you're not allowed to do is say, I wanna do my hobby. I wanna get paid really well, and I don't wanna interact with customers.

那样你根本没法谋生。

You're just not gonna be able to make a living doing that.

不，这行不通。你认为整个社会有可能朝这个方向改变吗？我觉得，很多让工作变得缺乏人情味和乐趣的趋势，并不是某个人能决定的。实际上，我感觉我们的文化正变得越来越人性化。

No. It doesn't work. Do you think it's possible for society to change as a whole in this direction? I think, like, a lot of the trends that are making work less personal and less enjoyable, I think, aren't trends that any one person is deciding on. Like, if anything, I feel like our culture is becoming, like, more human.

比如五十年前，所有企业主都会说利润至上。对吧？而今天，比如你们就有共益企业认证对吧？你们是经过认证要关心其他利益相关者、客户、合作伙伴和员工的。

Like, fifty years ago, every business owner would have said profits all that matters. Right? Whereas, like, today, like, I mean, you have a b corp. Right? Like, you're literally certified to care about other stakeholders or customers or partners or employees.

有数百人签署了那个叫什么来着——几年前有个商业圆桌会议，人们提出‘资本主义不能只讲利润，还要关注这些其他方面’。我认为现在有更多消费者在监督企业责任，这比过去强多了。所以从文化层面看，我们似乎在朝正确方向前进——我们想要更人性化。

And there's, like, hundreds of people who've signed I what the name of it was. There was like a business roundtable thing a few years back where it was like people said, you know, hey, capitalism isn't just about profits, about these other things. I think there's more people, consumers holding businesses accountable today than there were in the past. So I think culturally, it feels like we're going in the right direction. We want to be more human.

我们想更有关怀。像我这样的千禧一代，比父母那辈更注重工作意义和乐趣。但与此同时，人工智能、互联网、编程等技术力量却在把事物推向相反方向——让很多人更难找到工作意义。我的问题是：我们该怎么办？感觉我们就像在逆流而上。

We want to care more. People in my generation, I'm a millennial, are a lot more focused on purpose and enjoyment of their work than my parents' generation, for example. And yet, the technological forces that we have, like artificial intelligence, the Internet, programming in general, are driving things in the opposite direction, where it's harder to find purpose for a lot of people. My question here is, like, how do we what do we do? It feels like we're trying to fight and trying to push in the right direction.

但这种事真的是人力所能为吗？如果我们按你书里的建议创办公司，能产生什么影响？难道不会被那些大公司碾压吗？——他们只需说‘我们的经济效率比你高得多，所有事都用AI’？

But like, is this even a thing that like we as people can do? Like, if we start a company that follows the advice in your book, you know, what effect will that have? And will we not just be squashed by these bigger companies that are just like, ah, we're gonna be much much more economically efficient than you and use AI for everything?

好的。这个问题有几个部分。首先，不要低估12年学校教育、车上有贴纸的父母、以及被逼问‘这会考吗’的人们所受到的灌输。如果你走进那些仍在营业的大型连锁店，在角落里会有一个自助终端——不是ATM机，而是你用来申请工作的。输入你的社保号和姓名。

Okay. So there's a couple parts to this question. The first one is don't underestimate the indoctrination of 12 of school, of parents with a sticker on their car, of people being pushed to ask will this be on the test. So if you walk into one of those big box stores that are still in business, if you look in the corner there's a kiosk and it's not an ATM machine, it's actually how you apply for a job. Type in your Social Security number and your name.

系统会查询你的信息然后当场聘用你。支付最低工资。来去自由。有人想要这份工作。他们想要是因为不想承担责任。

It looks you up and then it hires you on the spot. Pays you minimum wage. Easy in, easy out. There are people who want that job. They want that job because they don't want to be on the hook.

他们不想全身心投入工作。他们不想要，因为他们被洗脑认为工作中不可能获得更多。所以有很多遭受摧残、创伤的人不会像你们两位这样站出来，不会像你们社区那样说‘不，不，不，要求更多’。这是第一部分。第二部分是，我发明了邮件营销，然后行业把它从零发展成200亿美元的产业，而我不得不离开，因为一旦流行起来，这里就没有我们这类人的空间了。

They don't want to bring their full self to work. They don't want, because they have been brainwashed into believing that it is not possible to get more than that out of work. And so there's a lot of brutalized, traumatized people who aren't going to show up the way you two have, the way your community has and said, no, no, no, demand more. So that's the first part. The second part is, you know, I invented email marketing and then the industry came and turned it from a $0 industry to a $20,000,000,000 industry and I had to leave because once it catches on, this is not room for folks like us.

这可能发生在每个正在听这段内容且取得成功的人身上。当时机到来时，应该卖掉然后去做下一件事，因为你寻找的不是安逸，而是创造改变。

And that's probably going to happen to everybody who's listening to this who's successful. And when the time comes, should sell and go do the next thing because you're not looking for a Synacure, you're looking to make a difference.

我喜欢这个观点。有很多人，很多独立开发者一直在构建很酷的AI工具，同时也遭到很多反对声音说‘哇，你做的事情不会持久’。但我看到其中一些构建者，他们就像是创客中的创客，懂吗？

I like that idea. There's been a lot of people, a lot of indie hackers who've been building, just cool AI tools and there's been a lot of pushback about like, woah, what you're doing is not gonna last. It's not gonna be here forever. But then, like, some of the people I see building these tools, like, they're like the tinkerer's tinkerer. You know?

他们就是喜欢摆弄新东西，并不在乎这个能否持续25年。就像我经历过：这段时间很有趣，我赚了些钱，让人们的生活更快乐。

Like, they just like playing with new stuff, and they're not concerned that this is gonna last for twenty five years. Like, I had a moment. This was fun. I made some money. I made people's lives happy.

我让自己快乐。现在我要去做下一件事了。我认为这种灵活敏捷不仅被低估，而且随着技术加速可能会变得越来越重要——这就像你最初说的，也让我个人感到困扰，因为我不希望一半人类被抛在后面，被迫从事那些毫无意义的螺丝钉工作。

I made myself happy. And now I'm on to the next thing. And I think being nimble and quick like that is not only underrated, but probably is gonna become more and more important as technology speeds up, which is like, to your first point, also troubling for me personally because it's like I don't want half of humanity to be left aside. Right? And to be forced into these meaningless cog and a and a giant machine jobs.

这既不是我的责任，我也不知道从何着手去阻止这种情况发生。不过，如果每个人都能成为独立开发者、创意者或创造者，以他们喜欢的方式找到自己真正想做的事，那会很好。我不希望我们的社会分化成——满足的人与被满足者利用来当枪使的不满足者。

And it's not my responsibility nor would I even know where to begin to, stop that from happening. But, like, it would be nice if everybody was an indie hacker, creative, creator, whatever they like, but in some way found what they wanted to do. I don't want our society to turn into, like, the haves and the have nots, to turn into the people who are fulfilled and the people who are being used by the people who are fulfilled to be cocks.

顺带一提，这种机械化工作方式的奠基人之一弗雷德里克·温斯洛·泰勒曾说过，他的宏伟愿景是：'过去，人优先；未来，系统优先'。对，他可不是在说科幻小说里那种有趣的事。

To turn into, by the way, the the one of the fathers of this mechanized way of working, Frederick Winslow Taylor. The quote that he had, his grand vision was, in the past, the man has been first. In the future, the system will be first. Yeah. He didn't say that, like, the science fiction, this is gonna be a fun thing.

他当时在做梦。

He was dreaming.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后我们就活在这样的现实中。

And then here we are.

没错。就拿肥胖问题来说，我们能看到系统性问题——有人通过说服大量人群变得肥胖赚得盆满钵满，尽管这不健康，尽管有些人并不想这样。而另一些人则试图想办法让自己免受这些系统影响。我们在全球任何自由市场经济体中都能看到无数类似案例。

Yeah. So, if we talk about something as different as obesity, we see the system's problem. That people made a lot of money persuading a significant portion of the population to become obese, even though it's not healthy, even though some of those people don't want to be that way. And other people tried to figure out how to insulate themselves from those systems so that it wouldn't afflict them. And we see this in any free market economy around the world in so many ways.

但这不意味着我们必须接受现状。我们需要开始建立防护栏来阻止这种情况。谁来搭建这些防护栏？社区组织者可以。那些联结他人、设定议程并放大理念的人们。

That doesn't mean we have to accept that it happens. We have to start building guardrails so it doesn't happen. Who gets to build the guardrails? Community organizers do. People who connect the others, set the agenda, and amplify the ideas.

我们坚信变革是自上而下的，但实际从来不是。变革始于根基。我们容忍什么就会得到什么。所以当我们开始关注五岁孩童接受的教育，当我们开始关注劳动者的薪酬待遇以及其间的所有环节，系统就会开始改变——尽管改变得太慢，尽管存在太多创伤，但正因我们坚持不懈，改变才会发生。所以你的发声如此珍贵。

And we believe it's top down, it's never top down. It's from the foundations up. We get what we tolerate. And so when we start addressing what kids are taught when they're five years old, when we start addressing what people are paid when they go to work and everything in between, the systems begin to change and they're changing too slowly, there's way too much trauma, but they only change because we persist. And so you saying it is so valuable.

接下来的问题是：我们如何持续不断地推进这件事？因为我们不可能通过比特币投机来拯救世界，但如果我们能创建一个记录一切的韧性开源数据库，让人们未来能真正拥有资产，或许就能拯救世界。这两者很接近，但本质不同。

And then the question is how do we do it and do it and do it and do it again? Because we're not gonna save the world by speculating with Bitcoin, but we might save the world if we can create a resilient open database that keeps track of things so that people can own actual assets going forward. So they're near each other, but they're not the same thing.

没错。我看这本书的介绍时就在想，这本质上像是本'拯救世界指南'对吧？不过我也不太确定。

Right. Well, think this is like essentially your book when I when I look at the description of it. It's kind of like a save the world book. Right? I'm not sure.

很想了解你写这本书的初衷？你希望达成什么目标？但本质上这似乎就是你的目的——号召大家团结起来，意识到我们有能力让世界变得更好，并为此提供行动框架。

Would love to know, like, your perspective on, like, why why are you writing this book? What do you want to happen? But essentially, it seems like that's the goal. Like, hey. Let's all come together and realize, like, we have the power to make things better, here is maybe an outline of how we do it.

我迄今所有书都押韵。如果你翻看2002年写的《生存远远不够》，或是十年后的《伊卡洛斯陷阱》，会发现许多主题反复出现。我还没能拯救世界，也不可能独自拯救世界，但我能激活那些渴望共同语言的人们。你永远不知道对话的最佳时机和地点，所以我坚持发声。好在如今我不再是孤军奋战。

All my books so far have rhymed. And if you pick up Survival is Not Enough, a book I wrote in 02/2001, if you pick up The Icarus Deception, a book I wrote ten years after that, many of the same themes keep coming up. So I haven't saved the world yet because I can't save the world, but what I can do is activate people who are looking for a shared vocabulary. And you never know when the right time and the right place is to have the conversation, so I persist. But I'm not alone in persisting.

过去进行这类对话要孤独得多。1997年我曾因反对垃圾邮件被直销协会除名，他们说'我们是直销商，垃圾邮件是好东西，你被开除了'。

It used to be much lonelier to have these conversations. You know, I got kicked out of the Direct Marketing Association in 1997 for arguing against spam. They're like, we're a direct marketer. Spam is a good thing. You're out of here.

居然有人为垃圾邮件辩护？太离谱了。

Who argues for spam? That's crazy.

就像在美国参议院一样。我当时正在作证，同行业的其他人说我是个白痴。但你只管发声。这一切的美妙之处在于，现在每个人都有麦克风了。你不需要权威。

Like this was in the US Senate. I was testifying and there were other people from my industry saying I was an idiot. So you just speak up. And the beauty of all of this is you everyone has a microphone now. You don't need authority.

你不需要执照。不需要辉煌的履历。你只需要组织一些人，这正是独立开发者为了谋生必须做的事。你要以何种方式组织客户，才能让事业稳步前进？所以，如果我是现在的软件从业者，我能想到的另一件事就是开发一个简单的应用，让我（如果我在任何大公司工作）能查清实际薪资与应得薪资的差距。

You don't need a license. You don't need a huge track record. You just need to organize some people, which is exactly the same thing that the indie hackers have to do to make a living. Which kind of customers are you gonna organize in a way that the Ratchet moves forward? So, you know, another thing that I could imagine doing if I was a software person today is build a simple app that let me, if I worked for any big company, find out the difference between what I'm getting paid and what I should get paid.

我能想象会有很多人愿意花50美元买这份报告，尤其是如果他们能拿着报告去找老板并获得5000美元加薪的话。

And I could imagine plenty of people who would happily pay $50 for that report, particularly if they could walk into their boss with that report and get a $5,000 raise.

对吧？成千上万的人正在奔波、涂写，知道吧，是的，但是

Right? Many tens of thousands of people are riding, scribbling, know, Yeah, but

关键在于，你不必非要另辟蹊径去开发类似Google文档的产品。你需要发现一个目前大公司觉得不够有趣去解决，但对客户足够有用、愿意付费来连接他人或自己数据的问题。

you know you get the idea is that you don't have to just come up with a different way to make a Google Doc. You have to come up with a problem that can be solved that isn't interesting enough for a giant company to solve right now, but is useful enough that a customer wants to connect with other humans or their data in a way that they're willing to pay for.

再稍微谈点个人话题，你刚才提到，你曾从事电子邮件营销直到它不再时髦，直到与你的价值观不符，然后你就转向下一件事。这种情况发生过很多次。你是个非常高产的人，不仅是作家，还有那么多研讨会和在线课程，有时让我头晕。你是怎么做到的？顺便问下，Seth Godin是读作Godin还是Godin？这是我另一个问题——

To make this slightly personal again, you just mentioned, you know, you were in email marketing until it wasn't cool anymore, until didn't align with your values, then you're you're on to the next thing. And that has happened a lot of times. You're an extremely prolific, not just writer, but, I mean, you have so many workshops and online courses that sometimes makes my head spin. How do you figure out once the, you know, Seth Godin by the way, is it is it Godin or Godin? That was another question I

我祖父编的姓。你可以随便念，但他总是读Godin。所以我无所谓。

had. My my grandfather made it up. So you can say any way you want, but he always said Godin. So that's fine with me.

高丁。当你对某件事感到精疲力尽时，你有固定的应对流程吗？比如，你会不会跑到森林里冥想一个月？你是怎么决定下一个要投入的事情的？

Godin. When you are tapped out on on one thing, do you have a process? Do you, you know, do you go into the woods for for a month and just meditate? How do you come up with the next thing to to work on?

伟大的德里克·西弗斯——我相信很多听众都知道他——当有人提出要收购CD Baby时联系了我。我说：如果你在乎这个项目，你就该卖掉它。他当时有点震惊，因为其他人都告诉他'这是你一生的事业'之类的废话。我说：当大公司愿意收购你的事业时，他们实际在告诉你——你在其他领域能创造更大价值。所以我启动任何项目时，都会明确告诉自己：低谷在哪里？最难的部分在哪里？大多数人会在哪个环节放弃？同时我也必须思考：我该在什么时候收手？

So the great Derek Sivers, and I'm sure a lot of people listening know who he is, reached out to me when someone offered to buy CD Baby, and I said, if you care about the project you need to sell. And he was sort of stunned at that because everyone else had told him, you know, this is your lifetime thing, blah blah blah. I said, by the time a big company is coming in and willing to buy what you've done, what they are saying to you is, you have higher leverage somewhere else. And so whenever I start a project, I am very clear with myself where the dip is, where's the hard part, where's the part where most people quit. And then I also have to think about, well, but when will I stop?

因为我肯定四十年后不会再经营这个了。以YOYODAN为例（后来卖给了雅虎），当时我们需要融资，但风投圈的噪音太大——竞争对手把价值25万美元的产品以1美元贱卖只为抢占市场。他们融了8000万，我们只融了四五百万。如果我要进行新一轮融资，我和合伙人将面临股权严重稀释，得拼命工作六年才能弥补这轮损失。所以当潜在投资方说'我们直接收购你吧'时...

Because I am not going to be running this thing in forty years for sure. So what is that like? So with YOYODAN, which I sold to Yahoo, it was, there was a moment in time when we needed to raise more money, but the noise in VC world was so loud that our competitors were selling what we sold for a quarter of a million dollars for a dollar just to get big, And they had raised $80,000,000 and we had raised five, or four, five. And so for me to raise a new round, there would have been so much dilution for me and my partners that it would have taken us six years of hard work just to catch up from that round. So when one of the people we were approaching for funding said, we'll just buy you.

我当即回答：好，成交。因为这是长达十年的苦战，而这不是我的家人也不是我本身，只是我们建造的一个东西。我的朋友依然会是朋友，服务的客户也能再次服务。这是我做过最艰难的决定之一，虽然伤害了很多我在乎的人，但我从中明白：鱼与熊掌不可兼得。

I was like, yeah, fine, done, done. Because it was a really long ten year slog to get here, and this is not my family and this is not me, this is a thing we built, and my friends will still be my friends and the people we serve, we can serve again. And that was one of the most difficult things I ever did. It dislocated a lot of people I cared about, but I learned from that. You can't have it both ways.

对吧？你不可能既发行新专辑，又永远带着这张专辑巡演。迟早你得说：我要做新专辑了。

Right? You can't launch a new record album and also keep touring with that album forever. Sooner or later, you gotta say, I'm making a new record album.

但你也不是一次只做一件事，而是像火车车厢那样连续推进多个项目。比如你的博客是不可阻挡的力量，书籍也是不可阻挡的力量——你在经营Yo Yo Dine期间还出版了畅销书。很多独立开发者（尤其不需要取悦风投和董事会的人）喜欢把全部事业想象成飞轮，让每个环节相互增益。

Well, you're also not doing one thing at a time and then, you know, sort of boxcar of consecutive projects where you're only doing one thing. You're I mean, the blog is a not it's an unstoppable force. The books are an unstoppable force. You released a hit book when you were doing Yo Yo Dine. So one thing that a lot of, especially indie hackers who don't necessarily have to please their VCs and boards that they like to do is think about all of their activities as a flywheel where, you know, it's one part is is adding to another part.

这是你的做法吗？如果是的话，你是有意识这样规划的吗？还是像你说的'吹蒲公英'那样——让花瓣随风飘落？等等...

And is that something that you do? And and if you do it, are you deliberate about it? Is it something that I've heard you say where you kinda think about things as blowing on a dandelion? You're like, let's let the petals fall where they may. How do Wait.

让我们再详细解释一下飞轮，因为我非常喜欢这个概念，感觉

Let's explain flywheels a little bit more because I love flywheels, and I feel like

请继续，Cortland。很高兴你回来了。跟我们说说飞轮...抱歉打断

Go for it, Cortland. It's to see you back. Tell us what flywheels Sorry.

我的麦克风刚才掉了，所以消失了几分钟。完全没听到你们之前说的，但正好赶上关键部分。飞轮可以想象成瀑布是直线型的——先做A，然后B，接着C就结束了。回头看看会觉得：嗯还不错。

My my mic dropped, so I was gone for a few minutes. I have no idea what you guys said, but I jumped in on a good part. A flywheel, you could think of, like, a waterfall as, like, a straight line. You do a then b then c then you're done. And you look back and you say, well, that was cool.

但飞轮会把C阶段的成果反馈到A阶段，形成闭环。这样商业中的每个动作都像推动杠杆，让其他环节变得更轻松高效，理想状态下形成无限循环。你可以选择推动不同环节。

But a flywheel kind of feeds step c back into step a. It's a circle. So everything you do with your business sort of pushes on a lever that makes another part of your business easier or better and more effective. And what's hopefully an infinite loop. So you can just kind of push on different parts.

典型例子就是亚马逊。他们低价销售商品→顾客喜爱→顾客增多→

So the classic example is Amazon. They sell things for cheap. Customers love them. Customers love them. There's more customers.

顾客增多→吸引更多供应商→供应商增多→亚马逊能拿到更低进价→循环往复。很多人没意识到，不仅是企业家，自由职业者也能打造自己的飞轮。

If there's more customers, there's more vendors you wanna sell. There's more vendors who wanna sell, then Amazon can sell stuff for cheaper. Right? And it just feeds around in this infinite circle. And a lot of people don't realize is that as an entrepreneur, even as a freelancer, you can have a flywheel too.

这不是必须的，但确实可行。所以Seth，我很好奇你是否构建了自己的飞轮体系来推动内容生产？

You don't have to, but you can. And so, yeah, I'm curious, Seth, to see if you have a flywheel and you think about producing stuff.

我曾有一张唱片专辑发行了几年，其中我制作的一个乐队就住在面包车里——他们是一对情侣，两人会开车到某个小镇，随便走进一家愿意接受即兴表演的咖啡馆。虽不是正式开放麦，但也差不多，一场能赚40美元。然后他们又开车去下一个镇子重复表演。我后来对他们说：你们需要在一个地方扎根，从40美元做到80美元、200美元，直到千元级别的演出，这样到处奔波永远达不到目标，你们只是在做简单重复的事。所以我总结出两点：第一，最有用的飞轮效应是‘疑罪从无’的累积——每次信任的建立都会带来更多信任。

So I had a record album for a couple years, and, one of the groups that I produced lived in a van, there were two of them, they were a couple, and they would drive into a town and find the coffee shop that would book anybody if you just walked in. It wasn't open mic, but it was close, and they might make $40. And then they would get in the van and drive to the next town and do it again. And I turned to them and I said, you need to stay in one town and go from the $40 to the $80 to the $200 to the thousand dollar gig because this driving around isn't getting you where you want to go, you're just doing the easy ones. So the two things that I would say are one, the flywheel that I have found is the most useful is the one that earns you the benefit of the doubt, which gets you more benefit of the doubt, which gets you more benefit of the doubt.

我在图书行业起步时整整一年无人问津，后来人们开始回我电话，再后来愿意和我共进午餐，只因为我持续出现。所以当我推出斯坦利·卡普兰考试辅导书时，他们愿意支付离谱的高价，只因我四年如一日的坚持已赢得信任。而当我短暂涉足电影行业时，他们却说‘像你这样碰运气的人我们见多了，等你失败40次再来吧’。

So when I was in the book business I had nothing for a year and then people started returning my calls and then they would go to lunch with me because I kept showing up. And so by the time I did the Stanley Kaplan test prep books, they paid a silly amount of money for them because they trusted me because I had been showing up for four years. Right. Whereas when I briefly showed up in the film industry, they were like, we got people fly by here all the time. Check back in after you failed 40 times.

好吧，到此为止。

Like, alright. I'm done with this.

没错。

Right.

这是第一点。第二点是：阻力真实存在，你需要把‘如果达成某件极困难的事，项目就能突破’写下来。现在就去规划实现它的步骤。当年我和亚历克斯·德帕尔马做播客培训时，总有人说‘只要请到米歇尔·奥巴马我的播客就能爆火’。但如果你直接联系她，她根本不会答应。

And and so that's the first thing. And then the second thing is resistance is real, and you need to write down on a piece of paper what is the very, very hard thing that if it happened, project would work better. Go figure out now, what are the steps to make that hard thing happen? So when I used to run the podcasting workshop with Alex DePalma, people say, my podcast will go great as soon as I can get Michelle Obama on the podcast. I'm like, but if you call Michelle Obama, she's not gonna say yes.

所以在此之前你需要先邀请谁？对。她会说‘哦，玛德琳·奥尔布赖特上过？那行’。那怎么请到奥尔布赖特呢？‘哦，战犯亨利·基辛格来过’。明白了吧？你要这样倒推，直到‘我的隔壁邻居’。

So who would you have to have had as a guest before that, that Right. She would say Oh, Madeleine Okay, what do you have to get to get Madeleine Albright? Oh, war criminal Henry Kissinger. Okay, well, you get it. And you worked your way back until my next door neighbor.

隔壁邻居是第一位嘉宾，第十二位或第一百位才是目标人物，懂吗？人们讨厌这样规划，他们只想相信奇迹。亚马逊初创时期，杰夫·贝佐斯刚去世的母亲在布法罗经营书店，接到亚马逊来电时，他们公司大概只有30人——这就是飞轮效应的力量。

My next door neighbor is the first guest and the twelfth guest is, or the one hundredth guest, right? And people hated to write this down. They hated it because they wanted to just believe in lightning. And so what makes the flywheel useful is at the beginning of Amazon, my mom who died shortly after he started it, ran a bookstore in Buffalo, and she gets a call from someone at Amazon. They probably had 30 people at the time.

他们说，我们看到你这里卖这本书，标价100美元。这是本艺术书。能请你邮寄给我们的客户吗？我们会给你150美元，包括书费和运费。亚马逊用这种方式卖这本书根本不可能赚钱。

And they said, we see here that you sell this book, blah blah blah, for a $100. It's an art book. Can you mail it to one of our customers, please? We will send you a $150 to cover the book and the shipping. Now there's no way Amazon could have made money selling that book that way.

没错。

Right.

但他们需要能够宣称：'我们拥有世界上所有的书，并且会卖给你'。所以那天他们让100个人非常开心。一个月后，又让400个人满意。在AWS之前，他们的飞轮效应是：人们信任亚马逊吗？我们如何每天做到这一点？

But they needed to be able to say, we have every book in the world and we will sell it to you. So they made a 100 people that day really happy. And then a month later, 400 people. The flywheel before AWS was, do people trust Amazon? How do we do that every day?

因为一旦我从亚马逊买了400件商品，如果他们搞砸了第401个订单，我也能接受。认知失调。那只是个错误。但他们必须通过飞轮效应达到能够承受这种失误的程度。

Because once I bought 400 things from Amazon, if they screwed up the four hundred and first order, I was fine. Cognitive dissonance. It was an error. Yep. But they had to get to the point with their flywheel where they could have could pull that off.

有趣的是，这和你说的个人飞轮几乎如出一辙。这是'疑点利益'的飞轮效应。他们所做的就是不断建立信任。本质上是一个承诺'你可以信赖我们'的品牌。我们随时为你服务。

Which is funny because it's very it's almost the same as the flywheel you're talking about using for yourself. It's the benefit of the doubt flywheel. What they're doing is they're they're building more trust. Basically, a a brand that says, you can trust us to come through. We're here for you.

我...我也不确定。我是说，这正是我们Indie Hackers试图打造的飞轮。我有张纸上画了这个飞轮大概一百次，Channing可能烦死我了，因为我每天都拿给他看。但最关键的部分是：人们是否相信我们会兑现承诺？Seth，我们时间到了。

And I I don't know. I mean, that's the same flywheel that we're trying to do for Indie Hackers. Got a paper here somewhere where I've I've drawn this flywheel like a 100 times, and Channing probably hates me because I keep showing it to him every day. But essentially, the best component in there is like, do people trust us to do what we say we're gonna do? Seth, we're out of time.

我们已经用完了你的时间，我想尊重这一点。非常感谢你参加节目。在结束前我能再问一个问题吗？

We've just hit the limit of your time, so I want to respect it. Thanks a ton for coming on the show. Can I ask you one more question before we

开什么玩笑？在我指出你们是超级明星、对你们的成就感到敬畏之前，你们不能提问。这次对话太棒了，谢谢。

get out of here? You can't ask me a question until I point out that you're superstars, that I am in awe of what you're building, and this was such a great conversation. Thank you.

节目最后要问的问题是：你拥有漫长的职业生涯，显然已经给出了上万条不同建议。有没有什么特别想对独立开发者们说的？可能是你旅程中的感悟、职业经验，或者与你下周出版新书相关的内容？

What's the the question asked at end of the show is is you've got a long career. You've obviously dispensed probably 10,000 different pieces of advice of your career. What's something you think indie hackers you'd like indie hackers to hear today that you know something that could take away from your journey, your learnings, your career, maybe something related to the book that you're putting out next week.

我写过最短的博客文章。准备好了吗？这也是我过去查看数据时最受欢迎的文章之一：『你不需要更多时间，你只需要做决定』。太喜欢了。

The shortest blog post I ever wrote. You ready? It's also one of the most popular blog posts I ever wrote back when I used to check my stats. You don't you don't need more time, you just need to decide. Love it.

香农是

Shannon is

对我们来说是个好地方。是啊，我们总在抱怨时间不够。赛斯，太感谢了，你真是个超级明星。

a place to us. Yeah. We're talking all the time about how we don't have any time. Seth, thanks a ton. You're a superstar.

希望等你下本书出版时能再邀请你回来。

Hopefully, we're gonna have you back when your next book's coming out.

在那之前就记在日历上吧，我已经等不及要再来了。我们很快会再聊的。

And even before that, put it in your calendar. I can't wait to come back. We'll talk soon.