180：埃克森美孚如何碾压开放式创新

大家好，欢迎回来。我是苏珊·林德纳，《创新故事会》的主持人。我们探讨那些将宏大构想推向终点的故事，以及那些既创造创新又讲述故事的非凡创新者们。但如果你不必仅依赖组织内部的杰出人才，而是能够放眼全球，寻找能助力你和你的创新目标更快实现的智慧头脑——或许还能带来前所未有的创造力与洞见，比想象中更为深思熟虑地实现目标，那会怎样呢？

Hey, everybody. Welcome back. I'm Susan Lindner, your host of the Innovation Storytellers Show. We talk about the stories that get big ideas to the finish lines and the incredible innovators who build both those innovations and those stories. But what if you didn't have to rely necessarily on just the brilliant minds inside your organization, but you could also look all around the world to find brilliant minds who could help support you and your innovation goals to bring them to fruition faster, perhaps more thoughtfully with new creativity and new insights than you ever thought possible.

今天我们讨论的主题是开放式创新的世界。这种创新有时发生在组织内部，有时则来自全球各地广泛的人群网络。正因如此，我非常激动能邀请到来自埃克森美孚的嘉宾海尔·巴斯勒·里德。他设计、创立并如今管理着埃克森美孚的全球开放式创新项目。在此之前，凯尔获得了勘探地球物理学的硕士学位——和我们许多人一样。凯尔，感谢你曾担任国家高级荣誉学会的全国代表，并荣获杰出学生奖项。

We're talking today about the world of open innovation. Sometimes that occurs inside of an organization, and sometimes it casts from a really wide net of people all around the world. And that's why I'm so excited to have Hire Baszler Reeder, who is my guest today from ExxonMobil. He has designed, founded, and now manages the global open innovation program at ExxonMobil. And before that, Kyle earned his MS in exploration geophysics as so many as of of us have, Kyle, thank you, serving as the national delegate for the National Senior Honor Society and receiving an award for outstanding student.

他拥有多项专利，涵盖不确定性量化、图像增强和生成式人工智能领域。凯尔在上游研究公司起步时，开发了一套地下特征描述工作流程，使埃克森美孚在无人认为可能的区域发现了新油田，随后他还为这些新油田命名。入职仅两年，凯尔就因开发一项大幅降低油藏规模不确定性的新技术获得埃克森美孚创新、创造与卓越奖，这项技术影响着数十亿美元规模的决策。后来他转入业务部门，开创了多种具有全球影响力的新工作流程，包括一项为业务带来30亿美元价值影响的成果。要说我们对创新有什么共识，那就是它必须创造价值——而今天能探讨这些案例让我倍感兴奋。

He has multiple patents spanning the areas of uncertainty quantification, image enhancement, and generative AI. Kyle started in the upstream research company developing a subsurface characterization workflow that resulted in ExxonMobil identifying new oil deposits in an area where no one thought it was possible, after which he named those new deposits as well. With only two years in the company, Kyle was awarded the ExxonMobil innovation, creativity, and excellence award for developing a new technology that greatly reduced the uncertainty of oil reservoir sizes impacting multibillion dollar decisions. Kyle then moved into the business pioneering a variety of new workflows with global impact, including a $3,000,000,000 value impact to the business. I mean, there's anything we know about innovation, it has to drive value, and I'm so excited to talk about some of that today.

自2019年起，凯尔开始参与正式的企业创新计划。在加入全球创新加速器首年，他的工作就树立了黄金标准，随后晋升为高级领导者。次年，凯尔受命在埃克森美孚建立开放式创新能力，如今他正管理着这一项目。由于该项目的快速成长与成功获得全球外部认可，凯尔已成为炙手可热的主题演讲嘉宾和播客参与者——比如今天的节目。他的工作还被收录在即将出版的《风险客户管理》一书中，该书序言由亨利·切斯布罗撰写。

Starting in 2019, Kyle became involved in formal corporate innovation efforts. After his first year in the Global Innovation Accelerator, Kyle's work set the gold standard, and he became that senior leader. The following year, Kyle was tasked with establishing an open innovation capability at ExxonMobil, which he now manages. And due to global external recognition of the rapid growth and success of the program, Kyle has become a sought after keynote speaker and podcast participant like right here today. His work is also featured in the upcoming book Venture Clienting, which has a forward by Henry Cheesebrough.

哇，哇，哇。凯尔，非常感谢你今天参加节目。在如此短的时间内取得这么多成就，实在令人惊叹。

Wow. Wow. Wow. Kyle, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. That's a lot of accomplishments in a very short span of time.

哎呀，谢谢。这么一一列举听着怪不好意思的。不过确实，这么说来我在埃克森的经历还算顺利，而且坦白说，这才刚刚开始呢。所以...

Well well, thank you. It's it's kind of embarrassing to hear them read out. But, yeah, when you put it that way, I've had a pretty good run here at Exxon, and, frankly, I'm just getting started. So

太棒了，太棒了。那我们就来深入聊聊吧？正如我们节目常说的：创新从来不是从正门走进来的。

Awesome. Awesome. So let's talk about it. Right? Because no one walks in through the front door of innovation, as we like to say on this show.

我们大致了解了你的经历，但从理论学术领域跨入创新世界是个重大跨越。用你自己的话说，你是怎么实现这个跨越的？

So we learned a little bit about how you got there, but it's a big step, right, from where you go kind of theoretically and and academically into this world of innovation. In your words, how did you get there?

说来有趣，回顾童年时期，我觉得自己天生就是创新者。从小就爱捣鼓东西、拆解物品，15岁就尝试创办第一家公司。但直到后来才明白，创新不仅仅是新点子——那根本算不上真正的创新。

Well, it's interesting because when I look back as a kid, even, I think I've always been an innovator. I've always been tinkering, taking things apart. I tried to found my first company when I was 15 years old. I think I've always been an innovator, but I didn't learn that innovation was actually not just new ideas. That's not innovation.

我将创新定义为一个完整的体系，它是门科学，可以通过工程方法实现，也能在组织中创造孕育条件。直到2019年参加创新加速计划时，我才首次接触到双钻模型等创新专家熟知的理念——当时看到这些PPT幻灯片时完全一头雾水。

Innovation, I I define it as a whole system, and it's a science, and you can engineer it, and you can create the conditions to to manifest it in your organization. I didn't learn that until 2019. We had this innovation accelerator program, and that was the first time that I actually looked at a PowerPoint slide that had the double diamond, all these kind of concepts that are are commonly known by innovation experts. I had no idea about any of that.

所以你这是在无证驾驶创新啊，是这个意思吗？

So you're practicing innovation without a license. Is that it?

我觉得这是家族传承。我祖父经营混凝土砖厂时就是个创新狂人，他改造装配线、优化装载方式，首创了三倍深度的窑炉系统，能同时烧制三倍数量的砖块，还配备了多燃烧器装置。回望过去，这种创新基因其实流淌已久，只是组织花了些时间才确认我的创新者身份，思考如何驾驭这份热情。

I feel like it's in my family's heritage. My my grandfather, who was always doing these innovative things, he owned a concrete block plant, and he was always innovating the the assembly line, the way that they were loading them. He kinda pioneered these triple depth kilns where they were loading three times as many blocks in there at a time, and he had multiple burners and all this kind of stuff. I yeah. When I look back, I think it's this has been going on for quite some time, but it took the organization a while maybe to flag me as one of these innovators and say, what are we gonna do with all that passion?

干脆让这家伙在全公司范围内大展拳脚吧。

Let let's turn this guy loose on the whole organization.

太棒了。同时也要让组织的智慧之光照射到我们身上，对吧？这就是开放式创新的真谛。

Fantastic. Yeah. And, also, let the organization's brilliance loose on us. Right? That's what open innovation does.

确实能从组织内外发掘出绝妙的创意。为了让部分听众更好理解，我先回顾一下。我节目最早期的嘉宾之一史蒂夫·雷德，他不仅经营着自己的咨询公司，还负责NASA的开放创新平台。他启发我从全新视角思考人才运用——用人类最擅长的方式，在创新过程中按需分阶段部署人力，从而以不同方式实现人才发现与项目执行。

It's really unearth brilliant ideas from around the organization and sometimes even outside. So let's take a step back for some of my listeners. One of my very first guests on the show was a guy named Steve Rader who owns his own consulting firm but also runs the open innovation platform, NASA, and certainly an inspiration to me thinking about all the different ways that we can think about talent in new ways. We can think about discovery in new ways. We can think about execution in different ways by using humans and what they're best at and applying them in intervals as we need them in order to work through the innovation process.

在埃克森美孚，你们如何定义开放创新？在你们企业实践中具体是怎样的？

How do you define open innovation at ExxonMobil? What does it look like in your world?

首先我也要特别感谢史蒂夫·雷德，他确实帮助我启动了个人项目。关于开放创新的定义，当我刚起步时也面临同样困惑——这到底是什么？具体需要我做什么？

Well, first of all, I also wanna give a shout out to Steve Rader. He really helped me get started with my own program. The way that I define open innovation, and when I got started, I had to ask that question. I said, what is this? So what do you want me to do, open innovation?

我的理解是：像我们这样拥有6万名员工、150年历史的大型企业，组织内部蕴藏着巨大潜能。通过调研文献发现，开放创新的定义空间其实包含内部团队。我设计了一个从0到7的评估体系：

What I said was the following, which is if you look at an organization as big as we are, we're talking about 60,000 plus or minus employees, a history going back a 150. There's a lot of horsepower in the walls. And when I looked around, when I looked at the literature, what I found is that there is space to define open innovation as including your own teams. And I have a scale that I use. It ranges from zero to seven.

零级开放创新可能类似团队研讨会，召集四五名核心成员；一级则需与相邻团队展开协作；

A zero level open innovation, that's maybe like a team workshop. You got your four other team members, get them together in the room. Here's what I'm trying to do. You get into the level one. You're talking to the adjacent teams around you.

二级需跨部门开展内部众包活动。随着等级提升，将突破企业边界——先从长期合作方入手，通过大型研讨会等形式展开；

Level two, it might be like a different function and you're doing maybe an internal crowdsourcing type of exercise. As you get into those higher levels, you go outside the company. You're gonna start with the places that you you work with all the time. You're familiar with them. Maybe you kinda get all of them together in a big room.

当进入六七级这个我主要深耕的开放创新前沿领域时，你将接触行业内的陌生组织、学界人士甚至全球资源——这正是我投入全部精力的终极阶段，它包罗万象。

You can do, again, like a workshop. As you start to go into the the six and seven, the the very edge of open innovation, which is where I actually spend most of my time, you're getting into the organizations that you've never heard of before. They're in your industry, but you've never worked with them and you're seeking them out, you're trying to engage them, or the minds in your industry, maybe the students and people that you haven't talked to. And then the very end of it, which is the place where I spend almost all my energy and time and focus is the whole world. It's everything.

这是不同的行业。这是背景截然不同的人群。这是你可能从未听说过的国家。第一次有来自莱索托的解决者为我工作时，我甚至不知道那在哪里。我是说，我不得不...我原本是地质学家，地球物理学家。

It's different industries. It's people with radically different backgrounds. It's different countries that you may not even have heard of. The first time I had solvers working for me from Lesotho, I didn't even know where that was. I mean, I had to I I'm a geo geologist by background, geophysicist.

你知道，我对地理相当了解。但我当时不知道那个地方在哪里。这就是开放式创新的终点，我认为它涵盖了整个光谱。每个问题都不同，实际上取决于你要解决的问题类型，而问题可以通过多种方式来描述。

You know, I I know geography pretty well. I didn't know where that was. And so that's the end of the open innovation, and I think it encompasses that whole spectrum. Every problem is different. It it really just depends on the type of problem you're trying to solve, and there's a number of ways to characterize problems.

是啊。所以你发现莱索托就在雅典的底部。

Yeah. And so you found Lesotho there in the bottom of Athens.

一位解决者。我们在牙买加也有解决者。

A solver. We've got a we've got solvers in Jamaica.

什么是解决者？

What's solver?

解决者...所以我将解决者定义为：我是一个寻求者，我与公司里的客户合作。他们试图寻找某个想法、现成的方案，或是能实际帮助他们的人。我们在寻求答案，所以我们会把需求发布出去。解决者就是那些前来响应的人，他们可以给我们提案、想法，或是简历。

Solvers and so so the so I define a solver as I I'm a seeker, and I work with a customer in the company. They're trying to find something, an idea, something off the shelf, somebody to come in and actually help them. We're seeking. So we're putting the ask out there. The solvers are the people that come, and they they can either give us proposals, ideas, their resume.

他们愿意来和我们交流。这些人就是解决者。

They're willing to come talk to us. Those are the solvers.

所以我是个解决者。我明白了。你是个探索者。对吧？有人正在寻找一种不同的方式讲述他们的故事。

So I'm a solver. I get it. You're a seeker. Right? Someone's seeking a a way to tell their story differently.

我就是那个特定问题的解决者。对。懂了。懂了。好的。

I'm the solver for that particular x. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay.

对。可能是这样。你可能一直在找我上你的播客，而我在解决你演讲时段中的一个问题。我觉得我们都是探索者和解决者。特别是在公司内部，这是一种思考方式。

Yeah. Could be. You could have been seeking me to come in on your podcast, and and I'm solving one of your presentation slots. Think we're all seekers and solvers. Like, especially within a corporation, that's one way to think about it.

公司里的每个人都是探索者和解决者。他们常常不知道自己是个解决者，因为那个他们能帮助的人可能不在同一个团队，甚至不在同一个组织。所以，是的，我想说也许每个人都是探索者和解决者，而且...

Everybody in the corporation is a seeker and a solver. They often they don't know they don't know that they're a solver because this the person that has the problem that they could help them, they might not be on the same team. They might not even be in the same organization. And so, yeah, I I would just say that maybe everybody's a seeker and a solver and given

这个视角很好。我记得两千年代初曾大力推动过一类叫知识管理的软件，试图找出公司里谁知道什么。对。你知道吗？我想起提利昂·兰尼斯特四处走动说，我喝太多酒了，但我知道很多事。

really good way of looking at it. I think I remember this big push in the early two thousands around a whole category of software called knowledge management, which was trying to figure out who was in the company who knew stuff. Yeah. You know? I think of Tyrion Lannister walking around like, I I drink too much, and I know stuff.

有点像那样，但这是我们大型组织面临的挑战之一。对吧？知道谁知道什么。德勤这样拥有44万员工的巨型咨询公司可能能做到，但我们企业的结构不是那样的。

Like, it's kind of that, but we it's the one of the challenges of giant organizations. Right? Knowing who knows what. Maybe Deloitte was gonna do that with a giant consulting firm and 440,000 employees. They can figure that out internally, but we don't structure our businesses that way.

我想告诉你，在埃克森美孚所有与我合作的部门中，我认为知识管理部门是目前与我保持最正式合作关系的。今年我还参加了一个知识管理会议。所以我同意。我认为知识管理是实现内部开放式创新的领域，而且这些人有时也掌握外部资源。是的。

I would just tell you that of all the functions in ExxonMobil that I am collaborating with, I actually believe knowledge management is the function that I have the most formal collaboration active with right now. I actually went to a knowledge management conference this year. So I agree. I think knowledge management is a place where that internal open innovation but even these are the people that also have the external resources too at times. I yeah.

我确实认为知识管理是开放式创新项目中至关重要的合作伙伴。

I do believe knowledge management is a really key collaboration partner for an open innovation program.

好的。那么现在我们来谈谈这方面的应用层面。能否举例说明你们目前正在开展的开放式创新项目？请从创新视角和实践视角带我们了解，这样我们也能思考如何在各自组织中实施。

Okay. So now let's talk about the application layer around this. So can you give us some examples of open innovation projects that you're working on now? And take us through this from the innovation lens, but maybe also the practical lens so we can think about how each of us could be doing this in our organizations.

当然。我想说的是，在我的项目启动时，其实我也不清楚什么是开放式创新。所以我必须先定义清楚：它既可以是内部也可以是外部的，这很好。那么当转向外部时，我们具体能做些什么呢？

Sure. So what I would say is in my program, I when I got started, I again, I didn't know what open innovation was. So I had to define, okay, this can be internal and external. That's great. And then when you go external, what all could we do?

我们有供应商资源、实验室资源、学术机构以及创新加速器。外部合作的方式多种多样，我所做的就是梳理这些工具及其适用场景。

We have vendors. We have labs. We have academic institutions, innovation accelerators. We've got all these different ways to work externally. And what I did is I tried to figure out what are all those tools and then where do they fit?

经过实践，我总结出三种关键工具：首先，这些工具往往不被团队知晓；其次，从价值角度看它们具有独特优势。这三种工具分别是：全球众包（适合从国际社群获取新创意）、全球提案征集（第二类工具）

Over time, what I have learned is there there were really three tools that I kept realizing one, my people oftentimes were not aware existed. And two, these are the tools that I think are truly differentiated from a value standpoint. So those three tools, I'll I'll share what they are and then I'll give some examples. The three tools are global external crowdsourcing, which is great for finding new ideas and concepts from the global community. Number two is I would call it a global request for proposals.

有人称之为反向提案。你把问题或需求对外发布，寻求具体解决方案而非初步构想。

Some people call it a reverse pitch. You're taking your something outside. It could be a problem. You're looking for something and you're seeking proposals. You're not looking for ideas and concepts.

第三种我称之为开放人才库的解决方案谱系——从简单的电话咨询，到组织十位外部专家进行半天的专题研讨会，都属于这个范畴。当过渡到短期聘用人员时，其实就已超出开放人才的界定范围了。

You're looking for a proposal. It's a product you could buy or they might develop it for you or they might research it for you. The third one is a category of spectrum of solutions that I call open talent And and that really could range from picking up the phone and having a conversation with somebody through arranging a full blown workshop with 10 different external experts for half a day and getting them all in the room to talk about your problem. Two, you're kind of blending into a staff contractor. You might bring somebody in on a short term basis, and then at some point it becomes a staff contractor, and that that's not really what I would consider to be open talent anymore.

开放人才需要快速高效。你引入他们，他们帮助你，然后他们又离开。

Open talent needs to be fast, efficient. You bring them in, they help you, and then they're back out again.

最后那些主题就像是雇佣兵一类的东西。

Those last theme are like a gun for hire kind of thing.

没错。是的。我认为这是个很好的思考方式。这就是那三点。然后我能做的就是分享一些相关的例子。

Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a good way to think about it. And so those are the three. And then what I could do is I could share just maybe some examples of those.

众包相当直接。我们有个问题，有件事想做。通常是个棘手的问题。团队带来的都不是常规问题。

Crowdsourcing is pretty straightforward. We have a problem. We have something we're trying to do. It's a tough problem usually. The teams are not bringing me just the run of the mill stuff.

明白吗？他们来找我，当遇到真正棘手的问题时——通常是长期困扰我们的——我们会一起解决。我永远忘不了那个团队。我在了解问题时会问：背景是什么？

Okay? They come to me and and we work together when it's a really tough problem, usually something we've been working on for a long time. I'll never forget the team. I'm learning about the problem. Well, give me what is the background here.

告诉我这个问题的情况。好吧，我们已研究了八十年。这是真实引述，意味着这是个顽固的问题。非常适合众包解决。

Tell me about this problem. Well, we've been working on it for eighty years. That's a real quote, and that means that's a stubborn problem. Great fit for crowdsourcing.

你能再说一遍吗？当你说'非常适合众包'并提到这是个八十年未解的问题时，我们是否该开始根据问题的持久性、顽固性来思考解决方式？我们该如何换角度思考？

Can you say that one more time? So when you say great fit for crowdsourcing and you said this is an eighty year problem, So should we begin to think about how we solve our problems as whether they are persistent, pernicious? Like, how should we think about it differently?

好的。我认为有两类问题特别适合众包解决。一类是那些顽固难题，我们已经尝试了所有方法。但如果你在像埃克森美孚这样的能源公司工作，你是否参加过农业会议？

Sure. There there's two categories that I think are a great fit for crowdsourcing. One is that stubborn problem, And we've tried everything. Okay? But what you haven't tried, you haven't been to the if you're in an energy company like ExxonMobil, have you been to the agriculture conference?

你是否参加过医药行业的展会？是否参加过航空航天领域的网络研讨会？没有吧。所以第七层级——我称之为第七级——你尚未尝试的就是这个。

Have you been to the pharmaceutical trade shows? Have you been to the aerospace webinars? No. You have not. And so what you haven't tried is that seven level seven, I call it.

这是开放式创新的最外层，即全球社区。不同国家有不同的边界条件，那里孕育着不同的企业、不同的思维方式、不同的学术头脑。他们面临相同的问题，但解决方式略有不同，使用的术语也稍有差异。

It's that outer layer of open innovation where it's the global community. Different countries, different boundary conditions on those countries. You have different businesses that are founded there, different minds, different academic minds. They have the same problem, but they solve it a little different. They have a little different lingo.

他们的思考角度不同。因此顽固难题非常适合。另一类则是在项目刚启动时。如果我们启动一个研究项目，有什么比向全球社区征集创意更好的方式来填充漏斗前端呢？这就是我认为众包最能发挥作用的两个场景。

They think about it a different way. So a stubborn problem is a great fit. The other one is just at the very beginning of a program. If we're kicking off a research program, what's a better way to fill that front end of the funnel for ideation than to cast it out to this global community? So those are the two where I think it can really shine.

但我发现顽固难题领域活动最活跃，因为团队需要帮助，他们需要尝试不同的方法。而这种方式对他们来说很直观，可能帮助他们找到新思路。

But I think the stubborn problem is the one that I'm probably finding the most activity there because the team, they need help. They they need to do something different. And this is something that I think is intuitive for them that might help them find some new ideas.

这确实会让人感到不安，对吧？走出舒适圈会害怕——万一竞争对手发现了怎么办？我甚至不想让他们知道我们在攻克这个问题。我们该如何建立软性壁垒，确保我们花了80年寻找的解决方案不会被批量转卖给所有竞争对手？

And it it can feel scary. Right? We can feel scary going outside our four walls of our what if the competition finds out? What if they like, I don't even want them to know we're tackling this problem. Like, how do we create soft walls to make sure that the information that the solution that we've been working to find for eighty years doesn't just get resold wholesale to all of our competitors?

没错。这其实是开放式创新的核心难题。我常对人们说：你必须支付知识产权通行费。要开展开放式创新，就必须缴纳'税款'——这个'税'就是我们要把问题暴露给外界。

Yeah. It's this is actually this is the crux of open innovation. What I tell people is you have to pay the the IP toll. To go do open innovation, you have to pay a tax. And that tax is we're gonna expose that problem to the outside world.

那么如何规避这种税务？我们主要使用两种关键工具。第一种称为模糊处理。比如当我在播客中时，因为我总拿着咖啡杯，所以我总是习惯拿它举例。我总是拿我的咖啡杯说事。

Now how do you mitigate that tax? There's two key tools that we use. One is called obfuscation. So if I'm looking I always like to pick on I guess because I always have a coffee mug when I'm in a podcast. I always pick on my coffee mug.

所以我会用这个杯子来举例。如果我要寻找一种能让咖啡保温时间延长一倍，或承受更高温度的金属，我可以这样表述：'我需要一种能让液体保温时间延长一倍的金属'。不必说明这是用于咖啡杯的，实际上——

So I'll use this and pick on this. If I'm looking for a metal that can hold the heat in my coffee mug longer, twice as long as what I have right now, or can sustain a higher temperature, one thing I could do is I could basically say, I'm looking for a metal to hold a fluid at at temperature twice as long. I'm not telling you it's for a coffee mug. I don't need to tell you it's a coffee mug. In fact

家人啊，这就是我们私下在研究的项目，就你知我知。没错。

family that this is what we're secretly working on you and me. Yeah.

事实上，这种模糊处理反而会让问题更具挑战性。因为现在我作为解决者，并不从事咖啡杯行业。我完全不懂什么咖啡杯，也从未涉足这个领域。我可能会直接关闭这个挑战。

Well, what I would say is that in fact, that obfuscation actually makes your problem stronger. Because now I'm a solver. I don't work in coffee mugs. I don't have a clue what you're talking coffee mug, I've never worked there. I might close the challenge.

但如果我看到'延长液体保温时间'的需求，虽然我曾在矿业工作时要保持液体温度...所以模糊处理是一种方法。另一种方法是匿名化，你可以以匿名保密方式发布需求。

But if I see holding a fluid at temperature longer, well, I've worked in that, but I was over in the the mining industry. We had to keep a fluid warm or something like this. So so that obfuscation, that's one way. And the other way is anonymity. You can run these on an anonymous confidential basis.

如果把模糊处理和匿名化结合使用，你的问题就会变得让人摸不着头脑——这个人到底想做什么？顺便说，我认为这通常是件好事，这会让你的问题更具挑战性。

So if you combined obfuscation with anonymity, you've taken your problem and you've made it something that it's not really clear what is this person even trying to do. And by the way, I think that is often a good thing. That makes your problem even stronger.

我建议听众们回顾本播客第三期与Steve Rader的对话，在那期我们详细讨论过薯片难题

I would refer our listeners to episode three of this podcast with Steve Rader where we talk about the potato chip conundrum in that very

嗯。

Mhmm.

同样的混淆手法。我们怎样才能在薯片装袋前去除那种油腻感呢？这是个惊人的故事，请继续免费讲述。不过，是的。

Same style of obfuscation. How do we get how do we get that greasy feeling off the potato chip before it gets into the bag? It's a it's an amazing story. Please go on with free. But but yeah.

因此，这种混淆手法是为其他与石油天然气毫无关系的伟大思想家打开世界大门的途径，对吧，与能源完全无关。

So that obfuscation is the pathway to opening the world to other great thinkers who have nothing to do with oil and gas, right, with energy at all.

是的。实际上，如果你看看我们的全明星解题者，我能告诉你的是他们在截然不同的挑战中获胜。所以我目前的推理是——因为人们总在问，这个人怎么可能解决如此深奥的化学问题？同时他们还在解决工程问题。其他人则困惑他们是怎么做到的？

Yeah. And in fact, if you look at our all star solvers, what I can tell you is they're winning radically different challenges. And so my current reasoning because people are saying, how is this person possibly solving this deep esoteric chemistry problem? And they're solving this engineering problem. And these other how are they doing that?

这个人是谁？我的回答是：这些人可能有点像达芬奇。他们是博学者，学识渊博。可能已经从事众包工作二十年了，每个问题他们都直接深入，自己做研究，汲取非常多元的经验。

Who is this person? And what the what I say is these people are probably kinda like Leonardo da Vinci. They're polymaths. They are well studied. They maybe have been doing crowdsourcing for twenty years, and each problem, they dive right in, and they do their own research, and they're pulling from very different experiences.

我认为这才是真正的全明星解题者，而你无法雇佣这种人。我不觉得他们对朝九晚五的工作有任何兴趣。我认为唯一能接触到这类人的方式——他们中很多人可能只是把这当消遣。唯一能接触...

That's the kind of person that I think is really an all star solver, and you can't hire this person. I don't think they have any interests in working the the nine to five. I think the only way to access these types of people who many of them, I think, might just be doing this for sport. The only way to access

对吧？他们就是天生充满好奇心的人。是的。

Right? Them is They're just naturally curious people. Yeah.

是的。乐趣、好奇心、学习新技能。他们可能是为了声誉而做这些。我认为其中一些解题者可能在竞争。是的。

Yeah. Fun, curiosity, learning a new skill. They may be doing it for reputation. I think some of these solvers, they might be competing. Yeah.

我不知道他们是谁，但他们做得非常出色。这是我所知道的。

I don't know who they are, but they do a really good job. That's what I know.

没错。我在公共卫生领域工作了十年，专注于艾滋病防治，我记得那确实是一场生死攸关的斗争，要找出艾滋病的治疗和治愈方法。但那是一场激烈的竞争，最终人们从各个可能的领域被召集来，试图以不同的方式思考这个问题，因为有太多未知数需要解决。因此，你真的需要整体思维。这就是为什么我们认为多样性实际上很重要。

Yeah. I spent ten years in public health working in HIV, and I can remember the it was certainly a life or death struggle to figure out what the treatment and cure for HIV was going to look like. But it was a dogfight, and you wound up people were brought in from every conceivable sector to try to think about the problem differently because it was so many unknowns to solve for. And so you really do need holistic thinking. That's why we think diversity actually matters.

对吧？当我们清楚地看待多样性时，它带来了新的想法，让我们看到问题的各个方面，就像钻石的每一个切面一样，对吧？这就是我们的问题，我们就是这样看待它的。

Right? If you when we look clearly at diversity, it's bringing in new ideas on it to see all the facets of the diamond, right, that is our problem, and we view it as such.

是的。

Yep.

给我们讲讲你们正在做的一些项目吧，这样我们就能感受到这种开放式创新在实际中的应用。

Tell us a little bit about some of the projects you're actually working on so big we can feel this open innovation at work.

好的。既然大家对众包有了基本的了解，知道它是如何运作的，我可以分享我们遇到的一个非常棘手的问题。埃克森美孚正在研究的一个项目叫做二氧化碳利用。基本上就是把二氧化碳转化为可用的产品。甲醇的化学性质表明，它可能是一种潜在的产物，也就是说，你或许能把二氧化碳转化为甲醇。

Great. Well well, now that everyone has a a level of understanding of what this crowdsourcing is, kinda how it works, I can share one of the challenges that we ran, which was a a very stubborn problem. So one of the things that ExxonMobil is working on is called c o two utilization. So basically taking c o two and turning it into usable products. One of those potential products, if you look at the chemistry of methanol, it's a chemical molecule that actually you might be able to turn CO two into that.

我们发起了一个全球众包挑战赛。这确实是个棘手的问题，二氧化碳分子本身就很顽固，它倾向于保持CO₂的形态，我就这么形容吧。

And what we did is we did a global crowd sourcing challenge. Again, this is a very stubborn problem. It's a stubborn molecule. It wants to be CO two. I'll just put it that way.

我们当时在寻找新思路、新方法，如何将二氧化碳转化为甲醇。特别关注多步骤方案，比如先转化为中间产物，再转化为其他物质，最终得到甲醇。但我们真正想挑战的是找到一步到位的转化方法。

Okay. We were looking for new ideas, new concepts on how can we turn that c o two into methanol. And particularly, we're aware of multi step approaches where you might turn it into an intermediate product, turn it into something else, turn it into methanol. We we were actually challenging the crowd. We wanted a one step conversion method.

我们设立了总奖金4万美元的全球众包挑战赛，即使所有方案都很糟糕（虽然从未发生），解题者也能获得奖金。当方案涌来时，我们收获了涵盖各种方向的创意清单，这极大地激活了整个项目，提供了多元解题视角。

And what we did is we launched a global crowdsourcing challenge that had a $40,000 guaranteed prize pool. So those solvers, they're they're were guaranteed to pay even if all the ideas turn out to be terrible, which has never happened. But they are guaranteed a prize pool. And that global crowdsourcing challenge, I can tell you that when the ideas came in, we had a huge list of different topics and and that really just reinvigorated that program. It really helped them look at a lot of different ways to solve the problem.

有个现象很有趣：有些方案并非全新，是我们已知的内容。但通过这种渠道呈现时，人们的思维是开放的——因为此时他们正处于发散思维的钻石模型阶段，寻求新可能。

And one of the things that I heard that I I found very interesting was there were a couple things in there that they they weren't new. These are things that we already knew about. We already looked at these things. But there was something about having this come in through this channel, and the mind is open. Right?

那些曾被考虑过的旧点子出现在这个创意池里，反而让他们能用全新视角重新审视这些方案。

Because they're at the they're in the diamond. They're in the stage where they're expanding. They're looking for new options. There was something about having those ideas that they've already considered in that mix. They said that helped them take them with a kind of a fresh approach.

这次挑战非常成功，我们不仅发现了新概念，还对已知方案获得了更深入的见解。解题者可能提供参考文献列表、专利清单，或是供应商产品信息等。

So that was a very successful challenge. We found a lot of new concepts. We found concepts that we were already aware of, but the solvers were able to give us some additional insight. They may be giving you a list of references. They may be giving you a list of patents, etcetera, vendors, vendor products.

这就是我们如何用全球智慧攻克顽固难题的案例——向世界抛出问题，世界回馈给我们重振项目的宝贵资源。

And so that's one example of a very stubborn problem. We threw it out to the world, and the world has delivered us a lot of good stuff for us to reinvigorate our program.

那么，有没有你希望听众们可以用来实践这些想法的平台呢？

So is there are there platforms that you'd like to use to put these ideas out just for my listeners where they can start?

是的，平台种类繁多。简单来说，从微型挑战赛起步，比如设置500美元奖金池分给约50名获胜者的形式。MindSumo就是个很好的例子——这类微型挑战平台。全球众包平台数量众多，选择很丰富。

Yeah. There are, well, there are a wide varieties of programs platforms. What I what I would tell you is they range from things like little micro challenges where you could get started and you could do $500 prize pools that are gonna be divided up among maybe 50 winners type of day. You have, like, MindSumo is a great example of that, like, micro challenges. If you look at the global crowdsourcing platforms, there's a lot there's a lot of them out there.

如果大家想深入了解，我首先想到的顶级平台包括曾用名Innocentive的Wozoku，以及常被提及的HeroX。至于专业开放人才平台更是数以百计，特定领域都有专属的垂直社区。虽然我手头没有完整清单，但总体而言众包平台可分为小型挑战和大型挑战两类。

The top ones that come to mind for me if people wanna learn more, Wozoku is one that used to be known as Innocentive. HeroX is is another one that is commonly referenced. And then as as you go into the more specialized platforms for open talent, there's hundreds of them. For given talents, there's there are specific platforms where you sort of have these communities of people that are there. And I don't have a huge list of those, but I would say at a high level, crowdsourcing, you have smaller challenges, and then you have these bigger challenges.

太棒了。刚才讨论的是个棘手问题对吧？你们最终动员了大量参与者——这些是纯外部人员，还是也包括埃克森美孚内部员工？

Fantastic. So that was a pernicious problem. Right? You wound up getting a lot of people on board, and it wasn't did you also have internal Exxon employees apply as well, or was it all external?

针对大多数问题，我们有个关于开放创新的有趣数据：每个项目开始前我都会问几个关键问题——你们有多少时间？预算多少？

Most problems, what we do and I have a fun statistic for you here about open innovation. So so every problem that comes, I'm gonna wanna ask a series of questions. Okay. How much time do you have? How much budget do you have?

你们有能测试验证创意的团队吗？还是需要现成方案？项目背景如何？我们是否有相关经验？尝试过哪些失败方案？

Do you have a team that can actually test and explore and pilot ideas, or do you need something off the shelf? What's the background? What's the history? Have we worked in this space before, or is it completely brand new? What solutions have you tried that didn't work?

明确这些要素后，下一阶段我会进行广泛内部调研，这时知识管理合作就派上用场了——帮我们查找历史研究资料。我们正在建立工作流来识别公司内部人才和经验，同时我会不断追问'公司里哪些人可能对该问题有见解？'最终通常会形成约五页的PPT方案框架。

Once we've defined all of those things, the next phase of my program is I wanna do broad internal canvassing, and that's where the knowledge management partnership comes in. Can help us find past studies that were done. We're working on workflows to identify talent in the company, experience in the company. But I always am pushing a team who are all the people in the company that might have a say in this problem. So after we've defined it, we might have like a five page PowerPoint deck, something like this.

我们把所有人召集到会议室，基本上就是开个会达成共识。这真的是问题所在吗？我们真的处于这个阶段吗？这真的是最先进的技术吗？根据我的统计，大约有一半的情况是会议结束后我的工作就终止了，因为会上有人会说：'你们知道供应商ABC吗？'

We then get all those people in the room and we basically have a meeting to to agree. Is this really the problem? Is this really where we're at? Is this really the state of the art? And my statistic is about half of the time, my work ends after that meeting because someone in that meeting says, well, did you know about vendor a b c?

我们去年就引进他们了，现在正在这边这个站点使用他们的服务。我们测试过了。结果他们说不行。'你到底在说什么？'

We brought them in last year. We're working we're using them over at this site over here. We tested it. And they say, no. Well, what are you talking about?

是的，我们发现了这个东西，正在这边试点，效果非常好。这样一来，那个团队其实就不需要再开展大型开放式创新项目了。

Yeah. We found this thing. We're piloting it over here. It's going very well. Well, that team, they no longer really need to go do a big open innovation project.

他们已经有个相当接近的方案了。基本上他们会说：'凯尔，这太棒了。非常感谢。再见。'这样也挺好的。

They already have something that's pretty close. And and they basically, they say, Kyle, this was amazing. Thank you very much. Goodbye. And that's okay.

所以就这样吧。

So that's that's

又少了一个需要夹板固定的地方，对吧？

one less place with splint has been. Right?

这就是通过建立成功的开放式创新计划能带来的'无悔价值'。如果你能准确定义问题，有效挖掘内部现有方案，就能获得这类快速小成果。我认为这正体现了开放式创新计划的价值——看，我们建立了这些联系，甚至没花什么钱。

Well and and that's some of the no regrets value that can come through building a successful open innovation program. If you do good problem definition, if you scour internally for the available options effectively, you're gonna get some of these little quick wins. And I think that really speaks to the value of the open innovation program is, hey. We can make these connections. We didn't even really have to spend anything.

基本上就是开了几次会。就这样。所以，是的，用长话回答你的问题，我们这里就是这么运作的。

It basically cost a few meetings. That's it. So, yes, that is, to answer your question in a long way, that's how it works over here.

你们内部遇到什么样的阻力？也许你们已经验证了用例，但是否存在恐惧、忧虑或焦虑？当我们考虑向组织内其他人讲述这个故事时，或许可以回想一两年前刚开始时的情景。当时你们是怎么说服大家接受这个想法的？遇到了哪些阻力？

What kind of pushback do you get internally? Maybe you've proven your use case already, but is there fear, trepidation, anxiety? Where as we think about telling the story to other people inside of the organization, maybe imagine yourself a year, two years ago when you were getting started with this. What was the story that you told to folks Yeah. On board with this idea, and what kind of pushback did you get?

让我分享一下——阻力会随着时间而变化。我的项目已经运行了大约三年。最初遇到的阻力是：你在做什么？创造了什么价值？我当时环顾四周说：现在正和Steve Rader、Wayne Fisher等外部顾问交流，同时也在询问内部同事。

Well, let me share let me share that the pushback will change over time for you. So my program has been active for roughly three years. At the very beginning, the pushback was, what are you doing? What value are you creating? And I'm looking around, and I'm saying, well, right now, I'm having external discussions with people like Steve Rader and Wayne Fisher and other consultants, and I'm asking people internally.

我计划对公司内部150人进行访谈，了解他们在创新和外部协作方面的经验。而大家的质疑基本上是：这有什么价值？刚开始时，阻力就是这样的——整天只是和人聊天，这算什么？

I I have a plan to conduct a 150 interviews of people inside the company and ask them about their experiences with innovation and working externally. And people are basically, there's the pushback is like, what value is there in that? So when you're getting started, I think it that's the the pushback. It's just you you talking to people all day. I mean, what is this?

你需要做些实际工作。当我刚开始时，一旦明确了目标并掌握了一些工具——比如这些帮助选择合适方案的图表——阻力就变成了：我分享的众包案例都来自NASA，全球招标的例子也是七年前的旧事。大家更关注的是：有最近的案例吗？

You need to do some work. When I got started, once I sort of established what I was trying to do and I had some of these tools and I have these kind of these charts that help you figure out what's the right option for you. The pushback, I think, was the examples I had to share about crowdsourcing were from NASA. And the examples of these global RFPs were from seven years ago, things that we did in the past. And I think the pushback was kind of more reputational just, well, do you have any examples of something that you did recently?

呃...没有。其实真没有。所以在这个我称之为'早期营销阶段'的中间期，存在一个可信度缺口——质疑集中在'这真的可行吗？你最近都没实践过'。

And well, no. I do. I don't actually. And and so I think there's a credibility gap when you're in that middle phase, the kind of the early marketing phase as I call it, where the pushback is really around, is this even possible? You haven't done this recently.

我觉得这里存在一个问题：如果你还没实践过，人们很难理解可能性。到了第三阶段——我称之为'执行阶段'（也就是我现在的阶段），阻力会转向流程方面：'这耗时太长'，'法律风险怎么处理'，'知识产权问题怎么办'等等。

I mean, I think there's something there where it's hard for people to understand the possibilities if you haven't done it yet. In the middle in the third phase, the execution phase as I call it, which is where I am today, the pushback will start as they might push back on the process. They might say, well, this is going to take too long. They might push back and say, well, I don't what about the legal aspect? What about the IP aspect?

由于我已经完成过这么多项目，现在通常能克服这些问题。我们实际上已经完成了300多个项目、领导工作等等。所以我和许多团队合作过。我认为几乎每种阻力我都见识过。当前的挑战，我可以明确告诉你，这类事情往往会被推后。

I can generally overcome those now that I've done so many of these projects. We're we're actually over 300 total projects, leads, etcetera. So I've worked with a lot of teams. I I think I've seen almost every type of pushback there is. So the current challenge, what I would tell you is absolutely those types of things are pushed back.

知识产权文化永远是个挑战，因为它很直观。一旦公开，你就得支付知识产权费用。有些人不愿支付，这可以讨论。有时我同意他们的观点，这没问题。但我认为当前的问题、我面临的最大障碍，恰恰在于我走进会议室时，对方可能已是有着三十年经验的化学家，是咖啡杯冶金领域的专家。

IP culture will always be a challenge because it's intuitive. Going public, you gotta pay that IP toll. Some people don't wanna pay it, and and that's a discussion. Sometimes I agree with them, and that's okay. But I would say the current problem, the current barrier that I'm facing, the the biggest barrier is something just around the fact that I'm coming into the room and this person is is been a chemist maybe for thirty years, and they're an expert on coffee mug metallurgy.

明白吗？他们会说，你的背景是地下成像。你懂什么？这就是我的困境。我参加所有行业会议。

Okay? And they're saying, your background is in imaging in the subsurface. What do you know? And and this is my problem. I go to all the conferences.

实际上我是这个行业协会的主席。我已经掌握了所有相关知识。所以这类思维模式，我认为最大的问题在于——听着，我们可以把你的挑战带到外部，我保证会为你找到新方法和新思路。虽然我无法保证最终效果和价值，但因为我完成的每个项目反馈都如出一辙：'哇'。

I'm actually the president of this the trade association in this. I already know everything there is. Okay? And so those types of minds, I think that's the biggest problem is, look, we can take your your challenge outside, and and I can guarantee you we will find you some new ways and new approaches. Now I can't guarantee you impact and value, but I guarantee you because every single project I've done, the quote has always been the same, which is, wow.

他们总会说'从没见过这种方案'或'闻所未闻'。所以我现在可以很自信地说：我能发现你不知道的东西。但要让人们接受这点需要时间，可能需要数年。改变的方式是当他们看到同行做了项目后——下次汇报时我会让那位同行来主讲。

I've never seen that before. Well, I've I've never heard of that before. So I'm pretty comfortable now saying, I will find you something you didn't know about. But I think getting folks to accept that is going to be a journey and and where it's going to take years. And and the way that it will change is they will see their peer will do a project and I will come back.

我会先用十分钟讲概要，然后说'莎拉，你上来讲讲吧'。这时其他人就会好奇'这是什么？'接着他们会展示成果说'看看我发现的这些新点子'。我相信随着时间的推移，文化变革终将发生。

And that next time I present, that peer is gonna present, not me. I'm gonna give the high level for ten minutes and then I'm gonna say, okay, Sarah, why don't you come up here? And then they're gonna look over and say, well, what is this? And then they're going to say, put this out there and look at all these new ideas I found. And I think those people over time, the culture change will happen.

但文化变革不会一蹴而就。我深知这点。我的当前工作重点就是：如何说服那些持观望态度的人，让他们相信这是真实可行的，证明外界有很多优秀人才，而我能高效帮你对接他们。

But culture change does not happen overnight. I recognize that. It's fact. And that is my current focus is how do I get those people that are on the fence, how do I get them convinced that this is real, that this works, and that there's a lot of bright minds out there, and I can help you access them very efficiently.

是的，我认为这非常重要。我们知道，文化变革始于故事。对吧？没错。

Yeah. I think it's so important. And culture change, we know, starts with the story. Right? Yes.

事实本身并不能改变人们的想法。对吧？否则我们早在九十年代就该全面禁烟了，但这是个根深蒂固的顽疾。

Facts themselves do not change minds. Right? Otherwise, we would have stopped smoking wholesale in the nineties, but it is a pernicious and long standing problem.

嗯。

Yeah.

这是文化的一部分。值得庆幸的是，在我有生之年——我们这一代人——它已经发生了巨大转变。但作为公共卫生背景出身的人，你懂的，总是别人先改变，然后才轮到我。对吧？我得先听听他们的生活是如何发生不同转变的故事。

It's part of the culture. Thankfully, it has shifted pretty dramatically over my lifetime, over our lifetime. But as someone from a public health background, right, it's always somebody else who's going to change first before me. Right? And I have to hear the story about how their lives are different and transformed.

而我认为在创新叙事工作中，最关键的是要把握如何表达这种既体现价值又触动心灵的转变元素。对吧？所以这必须是一种思维模式的根本转变。否则我们根本不会愿意接过这个担子，想着'那方法对他有效，但...对吧？'

And that for transformation, I think, is such an important one in the storytelling work around innovation is really getting a handle on how do I express the transformative element that shows both value and a change to heart and output. Right? So it has to be a mindset shift, a hard set shift. Otherwise, we're really not willing to take up the mantle and go, well, that worked for that guy. But right?

我们要能呈现这种转型机遇。没错。其中最关键的是信任。所以我要问你每个来这个节目的人都会回答的问题。好的。

We be able to present that transformative opportunity. Yes. And the the biggest part of that is trust. So I'm gonna ask you the questions I ask every person who comes on this show. Okay.

第一个问题是，什么

Number one is, what

是

is

有史以来最伟大的创新是什么？

the greatest innovation of all time?

哦，有史以来最伟大的。嗯，我是物理学家，所以在这方面我有点偏见。但我确实不知道。我想到的可能是牛顿定律或微积分这类东西。

Oh, the greatest of all time. Well, I'm a physicist, so I'm a little biased here. But I yeah. I don't know. What comes to mind for me would be something like Newton's laws or or calculus or something like this.

就像那些基础的物理框架之一。因为所有科学都基于这类基本的物理测量体系。所以我决定选择牛顿。他是我的英雄。我就这么定了。

Like one of those fundamental physical frameworks. Because all of science is based on these types of basic physical measurement systems. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm just gonna go with Newton. He's my hero. I'll leave it at that.

在人类历史长河中也是相当近代的思想家，对吧？请继续。

Fairly recent thinker, right, in the course of human history too. Right? Go ahead.

这很公平。

That's fair.

是啊，很棒。很多人直接告诉我人工智能。好吧，那就追溯到最早。

Yeah. That's great. I am lots of folks who just tell me AI. So Okay. All the way back.

这个也很棒。这个也很棒。它几乎会影响一切。所以

That's a good one too. That's a good one too. It's gonna impact pretty much everything. So

确实如此。我们在此要破除一个迷思——创新绝非单打独斗。如果让你选择加入人类历史上任何一个创新团队，你会选择哪个？

That's true. So, we're here to dispel the myth that innovation takes place with one human alone. If you had the chance to join a team, an innovation team, at any point in human history, which team would you have liked to have been on?

很简单。我认为曼哈顿计划充满了创新文化的挑战。最好的项目往往有明确的问题导向，并能帮助社会解决实际需求。当技术难题与社会需求相结合时，就是最理想的状态。这个项目就是绝佳范例。

That's easy. I think Manhattan Project was lots of innovation culture challenges there. And the best projects are the ones where you have a clear problem and you're helping society solve a need. If you have a great technical problem and you have the tie to the societal need, that's the best. And and I think that project is a great example of that.

没错。我几乎每两周就会改变主意，但这次我选择回到金字塔时代。我要加入那个建造团队，最终搞明白他们究竟是怎么建成的。然后我会穿越回来告诉大家... 要么彻底否定外星人假说，要么证实它。谁知道呢。

Yeah. I change my mind on this pretty much every other week, but I think I'm gonna go back to the pyramids, and I'm finally gonna go and figure out how they actually built those. Like, I'm just join that team, and then I'll time travel and tell y'all how I've Yeah. To eliminate the conjecture of ancient aliens once or confirm. I don't know.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

试图一劳永逸地解决这个猜想。最后一个问题：你希望当今存在却尚未实现的创新是什么？是让你特别恼火的问题，还是你衷心期盼的事物？

Try to eliminate that conjecture once and for all. And last question is, what is an innovation that you wish existed today that does not something that really pisses you off or something that you just wholly wish for?

我见过不少喷气背包，甚至看到七十年代奥运会火炬传递时就用过。但我希望市场能推出价格合理且安全的租赁款。我本是地质学家，长期在山区攀岩考察。要能背着喷气背包探索岩壁就太棒了。

So I've seen a lot of jet packs, and I've even seen, like, in the seventies, they had one at for the Olympics. The torch came in. Like, in the seventies, they had a jet pack. But I would like the the markets to make them affordable and safe enough that I could rent one because I've all I'm a geologist by background. I've spent a lot of time in the mountains climbing and all this, but I would love to be able to just kinda jetpack and explore some rock faces.

这就是我想要的。我要选个有趣的答案——我想要一个经济实惠的个人喷气背包，这样我就能去山上旅行了。

That's the one I want. I'm gonna go with the fun answer. I want a affordable personal jetpack that I can do some touring up in the mountains.

钢铁侠战衣够用吗，还是说必须得

Would an Ironman suit be sufficient, or it really needs to

嗯，它得是开放式的，这样我才能带上我的地质锤、酸液瓶和工具，真正攀上岩壁去勘探岩石、敲开它们看看里面有什么。所以

be Well, it needs to be open so I can have, like, my rock hammer and my acid bottle and my tools so I can really get up to the face and and explore rocks and break them open and see what's in there. So

太棒了，太棒了。凯尔，如果大家想联系你，最好的方式是什么？

Fantastic. Fantastic. Kyle, if people wanna get in touch with you, what is the best way to do that?

我...我其实不太用社交媒体，但我是LinkedIn的重度用户。我沉迷其中，喜欢在那里建立人脉网络，也很乐意回答问题。

My I I I'm not a big social media person, but I'm a very big LinkedIn user. I'm hooked on it. I love it. I love building my network there. Happy to answer questions.

所以我的LinkedIn账号是最便捷的途径。你可以搜到我，我的姓氏很独特应该很容易找到。

So my LinkedIn account is the easiest way. You can look me up. Pretty unique. Last name should be easy to find.

太棒了。凯尔·巴斯勒·里德，非常感谢你今天参加节目。了解开放式创新让我感到无比愉快。

Fantastic. Kyle Basler Reeder, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure learning more and more about open innovation.

谢谢。感谢这次精彩的讨论和分享我们项目的机会。虽然相比许多其他项目我们还处于非常早期的阶段，但如果你看看我们的发展轨迹，我们会走得很远，敬请期待。谢谢。

Thank you. Thanks for this great discussion and opportunity to share our program. It's it's very early compared to a lot of other programs out there, but I think if you look at our trajectory, we're gonna go really far, and stay tuned. Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.