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我觉得三十岁这一阶段，是积累财富最重要的十年。
I think your thirties is the most important decade for building wealth.
我其实挺兴奋的，因为我觉得我们对这个问题的看法可能不太一样。
I'm actually excited because I think we might have a little bit different opinions on this.
我想让大家明白的是，只要你现在就开始，其实用不着像你想象的那么多钱，也能在一生中积累可观的财富。
That's the power I want people to realize is if you start now, it actually doesn't take as much as you think to build significant wealth in your lifetime.
我自己发现，限制我成长的最大障碍，其实是我自己。
What I've found personally is I have been the biggest limiting factor on my own growth.
这条通往千万富翁的路，没大多数人想的那么难。
So this is the path of $10,000,000 and it's not as hard as most people think.
积累财富最大的错误，通常不是投资上的失误。
The biggest wealth building mistakes usually aren't investment mistakes.
而是我们在职业选择、消费方式，以及时间和精力投入上做的决定。
They're decisions we make around our careers, our spending, where we focus our time and energy.
今天，本·弗雷泽和我聊聊我们各自积累财富的经历。
Today, Ben Fraser and I sit down and talk about our own wealth building journey.
我们两个都三十出头，今天聊聊收入、投资、复利、生活成本上涨，还有那些我们认为最能影响我们财务未来的决定。
As two guys in our thirties, we talk about income, investing, compounding, lifestyle creep, and the decisions that we're making that we think will have the biggest impact on our financial future.
希望你们喜欢。
Hope you enjoy.
本，今天我想说个挺重的话。
Ben, I wanna make a strong statement today.
我觉得，三十岁这一十年，是你一生中积累财富最重要的阶段。
I think your thirties is the most important decade for building wealth throughout your life.
如果你还没到三十岁，也别错过这期，一点都不晚。但我主要想聊这个，是因为我们俩都正好在三十岁左右——虽然你刚跨过门槛。
Now, if you're not in your thirties, listen to this episode, it's not too late, but I want to talk about this idea mainly because we're both in our thirties, even though you barely just made.
就刚过。
Barely.
对，你刚过三十。
Yeah, You barely made
三十岁那道线。
the 30 mark.
可以放在我这儿的窗台上。
Can be in my window here.
你现在多大了？
How old are you now?
39岁。
39.
是啊，所以我们现在必须得谈，再不谈就晚了。
Yeah, so we had to have this now or never.
不过在我说出我的想法之前，先听听你的看法。
But let me get your thoughts before I kind of give you mine.
对。
Yeah.
你觉得在三十多岁的时候该如何积累财富？
What is your thoughts about building wealth in your thirties?
我知道你也觉得这十年特别重要，那为什么说三十多岁对财富积累这么关键呢？
And it, you know, I know you think this is an important decade as well, so why is your thirties so important from a wealth
建立视野？
building perspective?
是的，其实我
Yeah, well, I'm actually
很兴奋，因为我觉得我们可能有点
excited because I think we might have a little
不同的看法。
bit different opinions on this.
好的。
Okay.
这可能会有点
This be kind of
有趣，看看我们哪里相似，哪里不同。
fun to see where we maybe are similar or different.
三十岁这段时期，我同意，真的非常关键。
Thirties, I would agree, are very, very important.
但我觉得也很重要的是，要搞清楚哪些事情才是真正值得专注的。
But I think it's also important to recognize what are going to be the important things to focus on.
至于净资产和名字后面有多少个零，我觉得在三十岁的时候，没那么重要，比不上四十岁、五十岁的时候。
And, you know, the the net worth and the number of zeros after your name, I think is less important in your thirties than it is probably in your forties and fifties.
这个话题我们可以来回讨论。
And, you know, we can go back and forth on that.
就我自己的经历来看，三十岁其实是这样一个阶段：你已经走过了二十多岁的探索期，试过几样东西，现在慢慢找到了方向，可能是某个技能领域，然后开始真正精进起来。
What I think the thirties really is, at least from my experience, is seeing the people in similar age age bracket is you've kind of gone on the twenties, you've kind of experimented with a few things, and hopefully, you're kind of locking in on something, a skill set, and you're now becoming very proficient at it.
那种所谓的‘一万小时定律’，这时候开始起作用了。
You know, that kind of idea of ten thousand hours is starting to kick in.
对。
Mhmm.
这种积累会形成很强的势头，让你一直带到四十岁、五十岁。
And that creates a lot of momentum that I think you carry into your forties and fifties.
我的看法是，在职业生涯初期，或者财富积累的早期，不管你是个创业者还是打工人，收入才是推动你财富增长的最关键因素。
My my perspective, my opinion is that early on in your career, early on in your wealth building journey, whether you're entrepreneur or an employee, your income is the biggest driver of your wealth.
所以一开始，我觉得最大化收入是为未来积累财富打基础最重要的方式之一。
And so early on, I think trying to maximize your income is one of the biggest ways to set yourself up for future wealth building.
我们在书里也聊了很多，今天可能也会提到这一点。
And we talk about a lot in the book, and I think we might talk about it here today.
但到了后来，收入其实就退到次要位置了，真正开始主导的是你之前积累起来的东西，它们开始复利增长，速度甚至超过你再赚新钱的速度。
Eventually though, your income actually becomes kind of a backseat component of this where what you've started to accumulate and start to compound actually kind of takes the helm and starts to compound faster than you can grow.
所以我觉得，大多数人会在四五十岁的时候经历这样一个转变期。
And so I think there's kind of this transition period that for most people, I think, happens in their forties and fifties.
但在三十岁的时候，关键在于打基础。
But in your thirties, it's really the setup.
你要做对的事，聚焦对的方向，培养正确的技能，这样才能在你四五十岁——我认为是财富积累的关键阶段——真正发力。
It's the setup for are you doing the right things, focusing the right things, building the right skills to be able to go in what what I believe are your key wealth building years in your forties.
是的。
Yeah.
回头看看，你三十岁时有没有经历过什么转折点，对你影响特别大，甚至彻底改变了你对财富创造的看法？
Looking back, was there a turning point in your thirties that's been kind of monumental for you, or maybe, I would say life changing in terms of the way you think about wealth creation?
是的，说实话，我在财务自由和财富积累这条路上走的是一段非常独特的旅程。
Yeah, you know, I mean, there's been such a unique journey in, for me in the kind of financial independence and, wealth building realm.
一开始，我特别痴迷于FIRE理念——财务自由，提前退休，整天就看各种理财博客。
I think early on, I was super into, like, the FIRE movement, financial independence, retire early, and all I would read were just finance blogs.
我几乎把所有能看的东西都看遍了，各种观点都接触过。
And so I've read, like, everything under the sun, I've seen every perspective.
那时候我就一个念头：我得赶上去。
And for me, was just like, I want to get ahead.
在我二十多岁快到三十岁的时候，总觉得落后别人一大截，我想很多人都有这种感觉。
Like when I was in my late twenties or the thirties, I felt like I was way behind, I think a lot of people feel that way.
但随着时间推移，我的想法发生了很大变化。
But my thoughts have really evolved a lot over time.
对我帮助最大的一个框架，就是把财富积累分成三个部分来考虑。
One of the frameworks has been really helpful for me is bracketing the kind of wealth building components into three different buckets.
一个是赚钱，一个是存钱，一个是投资，这三块得用完全不同的方式去看待。
So you have your earn bucket, your save bucket, and your invest bucket, and you got to think about those all differently.
在你财富积累的过程中，不同阶段会侧重这三个方面中的某一个。
And there's kind of different times that you'll focus on each of those as you kind of go through your wealth building journey.
但一开始，最重要的是赚钱。
But early on, earn is the big one.
你的收入、薪水，不管是什么，最初是长期财富增长的主要来源，但后来就变得稳定了。
So your your income, your salary, whatever it is, becomes initially the biggest component of that long term wealth wealth driver, but then it becomes safe.
对吧？
Right?
接下来关键的是，你到底能留下多少收入。
So then the other big component is how much you actually keeping of what you're earning.
有人年入十五万美元，可能比年入一百五十万却靠信用卡度日、过着奢侈生活的人更富裕。
Because you can still make it a $150,000 that could be much further ahead than someone making $1,500,000 if they're spending all living on credit cards and living, you know, a high lifestyle.
所以储蓄很重要，要量入为出，而投资才是真正积累财富的地方，不过通常要等一段时间才轮到它。
So saving is important, living below your means, and then investing is where I think the real wealth building happens, but it's usually a little bit down the road.
因为一开始你要想想，复利的力量，时间是其中最关键的因素。
Because early on, think about, okay, the power of compounding, time is a big component of that.
你在市场里待得越久，复利的时间就越长，收益也就越明显，对吧？
The longer you're in the market, the longer you're compounding, the more you have to get the power of it, right?
但问题是，早期你手头的钱通常都比较少。
But the problem is you're generally dealing with much smaller numbers earlier on.
我二十多岁、三十出头的时候，每年存一万块，那时候觉得这已经是一大笔钱了，压力挺大的。
So I'm putting, say, 10,000 away a year early in my twenties and thirties, that sounded like a lot of money back then, that was like a stretch.
但就算你每年翻倍增长，从绝对金额来看，早期那点钱带来的影响其实有限。
But you compound that, even if you're getting massive, you know, double doubling every couple years, from a dollar standpoint, it's not that impactful.
早期就是这样。
Early on.
早期就是这样。
Early on.
就算到了后期，你坚持把一万块投上五十年，
Well, even later on, I mean, you you compound out $10,000 for fifty years.
听起来是不错，但光看复利还不够，实际的本金数额也很关键。
I mean, I'm sure it looks great, but that's the absolute dollar amounts also matter as well as the compounding factor.
我后来的思路有点变了，不再只是把那十万块投到指数基金里——虽然我确实也这么做过，但我更想把钱花在拓展人脉、提升作为创业者和领导者的技能上，做那些能让我收入更上一层楼的事。
And where I've kind of shifted maybe or from where I was earlier on is instead of spending that $10,000 and putting it into some kind of index portfolio, I still did that, but I wanted to invest in my network, invest in the skills as a business owner and a leader, and do things that were gonna level up my ability to earn more income.
对。
Mhmm.
我现在赚的钱，远超过十年前，也远超我当初敢想的水平，但要是没在那些技能上投资，我根本不可能走到今天。
Because what I'm making now is way more than I was making ten years ago and way more than I thought I could be making, but I didn't have the skills that it would take to get here if I would have invested in that.
我觉得我其实已经领先很多了，因为我早年把一部分钱花在了提升自己能力的事情上。
And I think I'm going be much further ahead because I spent some of those, you know, some of that money earlier on into things that built my skills.
你当初是怎么知道该这么做的？有没有什么人或事启发了你？
Was there a boat, a person, like, how did you know early on to do that?
我觉得主要是因为我身边都是成功的人，多读书，看很多博客，渐渐就明白了一个道理：人脉真的很重要，而很多限制其实来自我们内心的障碍。
I think it was just being around people that were successful, reading books, all these blogs, there was a lot of just, you know, who you know matters a lot, and so much of it came down to the mental barriers that we all have.
对吧？
Right?
还有你觉得自己能做到什么程度。
And what you think is possible.
我看到有些人想得比我远得多。
And I saw people that thought bigger than I did.
我就想，既然他们能做到，那我也想试试看怎么做到。
I was like, well, if they can do that, I also wanna try and figure out how to do that.
所以我觉得是
And so I think it
纯粹出于好奇。
was just this curiosity.
一旦你进入那些圈子，就会真正感受到，它能帮你打破很多自己设下的限制。
And then once you get in those rooms, you see the power of it in in kind of removing some of the barriers you put yourself.
对。
Yeah.
我在金钱上的很多决定都后悔过。
There's a lot of money decisions I regret.
但我从不后悔那些投资于人脉和技能的决定。
I don't think I regret any decision of around investing in my network or my skills.
那些钱花得一点都没浪费。
I don't think there was any wasted dollars there.
其他方面确实浪费了不少钱，这个我们可以聊聊。
There was definitely a lot of wasted dollars in other things which we can talk about.
不过，确实如此。
But Oh, yeah.
那举几个例子呢？
How about a couple?
我觉得，因为我们一直处在类似的场合里，正如你所说，你才是自己最大的限制——作为CEO，你的上限就是公司的上限，对吧？
You know, I definitely think because we've been in a lot of those same rooms, and I just think to your point, like, you are your greatest ceiling, As a CEO, you're the ceiling of aspen in a sense, right?
所以，如果你想让公司成长，想让自己的收入提升，就必须不断突破自己。
And so if you want this company to grow and you want your income in this company, you have to continue to elevate.
我觉得这一点特别关键，值得重点关注。
And I think that is such an important place to focus on.
对我而言，我常会想到那些转折点。
Know, for me, I think about turning point.
对我来说，最近才真正意识到，过去几年我在房地产上亏了一大笔钱，市场一变，我投的那些钱就缩水了。
For me, think it was really recently, I mean, I've lost a significant chunk of money in real estate over the last several years with things turning and how much I had there.
我不是后悔投资房地产，而是回过头才明白，要赚到可自由支配的收入并把它投出去，有多难。
And it's not that I look back and regret investing in real estate, I think what I look back and realize is how hard it is to make discretionary income and invest that.
再说，花时间、花精力、花本事去多赚十万美元，这本身就不容易，尤其是我有孩子，家里还有小的，天天都有开销，哪有余力把五六十、上百块钱存起来，为三十年后打算，而不是先顾好眼前的家庭？
And then for first of all, like just the time, the effort, the talent that it takes to go have an extra $100,000 Especially when I have kids, like in a family, you know, and I got young ones and they have needs, like how hard it is to carve out another, you know, $50, $100 to go put for thirty years from now versus taking care of your family today.
五年前，我完全没意识到这一点。
I underappreciated that five years ago, for sure.
所以，我觉得这是第一个教训：现在回头看，让我真正转变的，是明白了你们说的复利财富的力量——一块钱能长成什么样。
Okay, so I think that was lesson number one, I look back, and I think looking and seeing that now, the turning point for me is realizing, and a lot of this has just been around you guys and understanding the power of compounding wealth, like how much a dollar can grow.
我们待会儿来看，你瞧这个，简直太惊人了。
And we'll pull this up, mean, like, look at this, I think this is so insane.
我最近刚用Claude做了这个工具，你一定要看看。
I built this with Claude recently, but you got to check this out of me.
这是我的复利增长计算器。
So this is my compounding growth calculator.
我真希望那时候你能早点明白复利的力量，我当时根本没意识到它有多惊人。
And I wish I had just like, I wish I guess what I wish you had clawed, know, back then, because I just understood compounding, do you see the power of it?
收入当然重要，但其实你不需要像大多数人想的那样赚很多钱。
I do think income is important, but I also think this is, it doesn't take as much as I think people think though.
对。
Sure.
这是百万美元的路径，其实没大多数人想的那么难。假设你30岁之前已经有7万5千块存着，很多人听这番话时可能早就有了。
Okay, so this is the path of $10,000,000 and it's not as hard as most people think, so if you're starting at $75,000 let's just say over the course of before you got to 30, you had $75,000 sitting in account, maybe a lot of people listen to this already have that.
只要你每年再投5万1千块，年均回报10%，30年后你的资产就会超过一千万——具体是1054万。最厉害的是，你现在30岁，到40岁就能成为百万富翁。
If you just contribute, the numbers here is to get to 10,000,000, is $51,000 a year, an average annual return of 10%, in thirty years you'll be worth over $10,000,000 $10,540,000 And that's the thing that's really cool, so you're 30 today, by the time you're 40, you're a millionaire.
你从7万5开始，每年投5万1，十年后你的资产就到一百万，二十年后接近四百万，三十年后直接破千万。所以我才说，三十岁这段日子特别关键。
So you have $75,000 you're starting with, 51,000 a year, in ten years your portfolio is worth a million bucks, in twenty years it's worth almost $4,000,000 and in thirty years, it's worth $10,000,000 The reason I the reason I say I think your thirties is one of those important decades.
还有一点，这千万资产里，你实际投进去的钱总共才160万。
And I think one more point that the contributed capital of that 10,000,000 was was at 1.6.
也就是说，三十年里你总共只投了160万，我明白你说的意思了。
So you only invested 1.6 over thirty years, I think I see it there.
是的
Yeah.
但你现在总共投入了160万美元。
But now the You've contributed 1,600,000.
对，是多年积累的。
Yeah, over years.
整整三十年。
Over thirty years.
你的投资组合现在值一千万美元。
Your portfolio is now worth 10,000,000.
没错，这正是我想说的，因为我早年根本没意识到，复利的真正威力其实体现在后期。
Exactly, and that's why I say, because this is what I don't think I realized early on, is that most of the power of compounding comes at the tail end.
没错，百分之百。
Yes, 100.
你算算这笔账，这也就是为什么接下来我们要聊财富目标，我先说说我的看法，然后听你说说你的。
Like do the numbers, and this is why we're gonna talk about the next question is wealth goal, and I'll answer it, and I'll let you your answer.
我的财富目标就是尽快凑够一千万，因为当你看到复利在八到十个百分点下，让财富达到一千万的时候，那数字简直离谱。
My wealth goal is get the 10,000,000 network as fast as possible, because when you start to see the numbers on compounding wealth at 10,000,000, at eight-ten percent, it gets really stupid.
你根本花不完你的净资产。
Like you can't spend your net worth.
我的意思是，这种程度的财富，普通人根本花不了。
Like, my point is like, you can't spend that anymore, at least not a normal person.
我是说，
Like, I'm
当然花得掉。
sure you can.
你当然花得掉，但那数字实在太离谱了。
I'm sure you could, but the numbers are so stupid.
所以我觉得这才是关键所在。
So I think that's why I say it's so important.
当然，即使到了四五十岁才开始积累，依然能建立起可观的财富，尤其是如果你能每年投入超过五万一千的话。
Of course, you can still build significant wealth starting in your 40s and 50s, especially if you're able to contribute more than 51,000.
但我想让每个人明白的是，如果你现在就开始，其实用不着像你想象的那么多钱，也能在一生中积累可观的财富，尤其是现在健康状况这么好，我觉得咱们俩到老了都能活得很硬朗。
But that's the power I want people to realize if you start now, it actually doesn't take as much as you think to build significant wealth in your lifetime, and especially where health things are at today, think I we're both going to be kicking it pretty strong.
没错。
Yep.
希望到六十岁的时候，咱们还能精神抖擞。
Lord willing at 60 years old.
当然。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以就我个人而言，一想到财富目标，我就看一千万这个数字，心想：我要尽全力往这个目标里砸钱。
So personally, when I think about kind of my wealth goal, I look at the numbers at 10,000,000 and say, I want to put as much into that bucket to get to that number.
我说的这个目标，其实就是退休金账户，那种有税收优惠的账户，因为在这个账户里，我发现跟着Bob走，根本不用交税，对吧？
The bucket I'm talking about is honestly like a retirement bucket, like the qualified bucket, because inside of that bucket, I realized hanging around Bob is there's no taxes, right?
如果你能，就尽量想办法降低费用。
You can, if you can, you you know, find ways to lower your fees.
所以这个账户的增长速度，远远超过我收入的增长。
And so this bucket can grow way faster than my income can over the course of that time.
我很想听听你的看法。
So I'd love to hear your thoughts.
在我们更深入聊这个话题之前，你的财富目标是什么？
What is your wealth goal as we kind of start to talk deeper into this episode?
是啊，说起来挺有意思的，以前我确实有很明确的目标，但后来慢慢变了。
Yeah, no, it's so funny, because I think earlier on, I had very concrete goals, but it's definitely evolved over time.
再说一个关键点，这对我来说其实是个转折，但回想起来当初还挺让人沮丧的——我有五个孩子。
Think, you know, the other kind of nuance here, and this is for me, maybe a turning point that was actually like an honestly kind of depressing earlier on was, I mean, I have a lot of kids, I got five kids.
以前每次涨工资，或者多赚一点钱，钱还没进账户，就已经花光了。
And I feel like every time I get like a raise earlier on, or I make a little bit extra money, the money was already spent before it hit my bank account.
不管我多努力，想攒下点可自由支配的钱，真的很难，尤其是在早期阶段。
And it just felt like no matter how hard I try, like to get to your point of like discretionary earnings, it's really hard, especially earlier on.
所以我不太想一味地否定长期积累的可能性，我觉得这其实是能做到的。
And so I don't want to I don't want to, you know, push too hard against the long time frame, because I do think it's possible.
我觉得你说得对，这确实非常有效。
I do think that I agree that it's very powerful.
就拿我来说，每年存一万块，时间一长也会积累成一笔可观的数目。
You know, my example, just putting $10,000 away a year, it is going to add up to something meaningful.
但我也明白，很多人只存这么点会觉得远远落后，毕竟金额不大，要等到它真正有起色得等很久。
But I also think a lot of people feel far behind if they're just doing that amount because it's not that much, and, like, it's going take so long for this to turn into something meaningful.
但你别忘了，人到三十多岁，往往是开支最大的时候。
But you're also at, like, the highest expense load that you will ever have is in your thirties.
对吧？
Right?
等你到了四十岁，如果孩子还小，迟早要送他们上大学，那时候就不用再养着他们了，有些人可能要到五十岁孩子才独立。
Because once you're in your forties, if you had kids younger, eventually you start to, you know, send them off to college, you got off payroll, maybe maybe it's, you know, into the fifties for for some people if the kids are hanging around.
但关键是，这段时期你的开销会持续攀升，像气球一样越吹越大。
But the the the point is you also have this expense balloon that kind of keeps growing for a while.
所以我的目标一直很明确：怎么才能多赚点钱？
And so my goal has always been how do I go and just earn more money?
因为我觉得关键在于，你到底擅长什么？
Because here's the thing that I come back to as well is what are you good at?
对吧？
Right?
我经常看一些理财博客，说的都是那种极端省钱的思路，名字我记不清了。
Because a lot of people I read these these finance blogs that are like, I forget what you call them, but ultra expense cutting mindset.
对。
Mhmm.
比如有人讲怎么一年只花三十块生活？
Like, how I live off of $30 a year?
我老是想不通，他们怎么做到的，但同时我也觉得，这根本不是我想过的生活。
And it would always boggle me, like, how they do this, but it was also like, that's not really what I want to do.
我不想费劲去折腾，只为了一年花三十块过日子。
I don't want to go figure out how to hack my lifestyle so I can live off $30 a year.
这根本不可能。
It's impossible.
我有五个孩子。
I got I got five kids.
所以我的想法转变成了：要是我能赚得比花的多，同时提升相关技能，那会怎么样？
So my my kind of shift was, well, what if I can go make more money than I'm spending and build the skills to go do that?
我觉得这条路并不是唯一的。
So I think there's there's not just one path.
对。
Yeah.
其实有很多办法。
I think there's a lot of ways.
归根结底，你赚的钱必须比花的多，留出余地。
Ultimately, you have to have margin in what you're making versus what you're spending.
没错。
Right.
这一点是绕不开的。
There's you can't get around that.
而且我觉得，越早开始投资越好，因为复利会对后期的积累产生巨大影响。
And then I think the earlier you can start investing, the better because compounding will, massively impact that that tail.
但与此同时，对大多数人来说，数字真正变得有意义，通常要到
But at the same time, the numbers don't really get super meaningful, I think, for most people, until you're in
四十多岁的时候。
your forties.
什么样的意义呢？
Meaningful in what way?
就是能拿出本金来。
Contribute capital.
就拿你举的例子来说，有人每年存五万美元。
Because even in your example, you're saying someone's putting away $50,000 a year.
对很多人来说，这已经是笔不小的数目了。
For a lot of people, that's a lot of money.
对。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
对有些人来说，倒也不是。
For some people, it's not.
但如果你三十多岁，手头有五万美元可以投资股市或房地产，这笔钱确实不少。
But that's if you're in your thirties, and you have $50,000 extra to go invest in the market or in real estate, that that can be seem like a big number.
确实如此。
Yeah, for sure.
但真正需要多少呢？
But how much does that really take?
我是说，如果你年收入二十万美元——我们很多听众都是这样的高收入群体——存下五万美元完全有可能。
I mean, if you're making if you're a high income earner making $200,000 a year, which is a lot of our audience, it's very possible, I think, for $50,000.
没错。
Yeah.
把钱投资出去，其中一部分取决于你的生活方式，对吧？
Invested away, you know, part of it is your lifestyle, right?
完全正确。
100%.
那我们回头说一下，我想问你几个问题，我这儿有几个想问的。
So I mean, let's go back, I want to ask you a question because I got several.
你39岁了，比我在三十多岁的时候多过了几年。
What, you know, you're 39, so you've had a couple more years in your thirties than I have.
从积累财富的角度来看，你在三十多岁的时候犯过哪些最大的错误？
What are some of the biggest mistakes in your thirties that you made from a wealth building standpoint?
是的。
Yeah.
不过说到底，每个人的情况都不一样。对我而言，真正有帮助的是，我现在大概清楚自己擅长什么了，也尝试过很多想试的东西，想尽快提升自己。
Well, again, I think it's it's different for everybody, and this has been what's been really helpful for me is I feel like I kinda know what I'm good at now, and I've tried a lot of different things that I wanted to try and get ahead.
我试过节省开支。
And so I tried the cost cutting.
对吧？
Right?
那时候我们过得挺省钱的，你可以去问问我爱人，刚结婚那会儿的事。
So we lived on I mean, you should ask my wife early marriage.
我们一周只出去吃一顿饭。
We would eat out only once a week.
预算里也就只留了这么点钱，然后我们就去奇波雷，两个人分着吃。
That's all I I allowed in our budget, and we would go to Chipotle, and we would split.
哇。
Wow.
墨西哥卷饼碗。
A burrito bowl.
那是我们偶尔的奢侈享受。
That was our splurge.
但那时候我们觉得自己就像国王和王后一样。
But we felt like we're, you know, kings and queens back then.
所以我当时尝试的是那种高消费的方式。
And so I was trying the, like, expense way.
那时候就是觉得，嘿。
That was like, hey.
我不知道你会做什么，但我至少能管好自己的开销。
I don't know what you're going make, but I know I can control my expenses.
我就决定这么干。
I'm going to do that.
后来有了孩子，我们一直是单收入家庭，从一开始就是。
Well, eventually, started having kids, and we were single income, we've been single income from the get go.
日子真的越来越难了。
It gets really hard.
所以最后我干脆放弃了那种节俭方式，心想：不如想办法多赚点钱。
So eventually kind of ditched that and said, well, I just go make make more money.
在我做阿斯彭之前，我一直在银行工作，那时候收入有个明显的上限。
And initially, before I was doing aspen and doing, I was working in banking, there's kind of a ceiling on what I could make.
等我快摸到那个天花板的时候，就想着：要是想赚更多，得换个方向试试。
And so once I kind of got in close to that, was like, well, if I want to make more money, I should go try other things.
所以接下来我就想，不如试试搞点被动收入。
So then the next was, let me go try and build passive income.
对吧？
Right?
几年前被动收入可是个特别火的话题。
Because that was really hot topic a couple years ago, build passive income.
但我真不想碰房地产。
Well, I didn't want to do real estate.
我简直就是反单家庭房产的代表，听过的每个故事、聊过的每个人都说，这事儿不值当。
I'm like the the the anti single family real estate guy because every story I've heard, every person I've talked with, they're like, it's it's not worth doing it.
现在比几年前难多了。
It's harder now than it was a couple years ago.
我也不擅长动手干活。
And I'm not handy.
我不是那种人，这真不是我的强项。
I'm not the guy like, that's just not what I'm good at.
我特别喜欢表格和数字，找找怎么在表格里赚钱。
I really like spreadsheets and numbers and, you know, finding ways to make money on a spreadsheet.
所以我明白，这真不是我该走的路。
So I knew that wasn't for me.
后来我们想到一个点子，现在回头看，这算是我踩的一个坑：要不要做电商和代发货？
So then one idea that we had, this would be one of my mistakes that I learned was, what if I get into ecommerce and drop shipping?
因为从我那时候的金融和银行背景来看，这听起来挺合理的。
Because that makes a lot of sense built based on the career that I built at that point being, you know, in finance and in banking.
于是我就一头扎进去了，东摸西探地折腾了一大圈。
And so started doing like this whole bunny trail.
我还拉上了我妹妹，她有市场营销的背景。
I brought my sister into it because she has a marketing background.
我们发现有家公司专门买卖线上电商项目。
We found this online business acquisition company could buy ecommerce businesses.
那就干脆买个电商项目，好好干一把。
So let's go buy ecommerce, let's go blow this thing up.
你知道吗，这说不定能值几千万美元呢。
You know, who knows, this could be worth millions and millions of dollars.
简而言之，这事儿让我特别丢脸，毕竟我以前干的是信贷审核和尽职调查，结果这根本是个庞氏骗局。
Well, long story short, and this is a big embarrassment for me, because as someone who comes from a underwriting diligence background, it was a Ponzi scheme.
天哪。
Wow.
是啊。
Yeah.
我就不细说了，因为整个套路特别复杂。
And not to get too much into the weeds, because it was very sophisticated.
幕后操盘的是俄罗斯人，他们在那个网站上卖了好几个所谓的电商项目，设计得特别周密。
It's being run by by Russians, and they had sold multiple businesses on this website, had a very elaborate scheme.
其实还挺厉害的。
It's actually pretty
你当时投了多少钱？
How much did you happen to this?
我们只投了三万美元进去，但那时候，那几乎是我所有的钱了。
We only only put $30,000 into it, but at that point, that was, like, everything that I had.
我当时想，干脆全押上，赚点被动收入。
I was like, we're going all in to go earn passive income.
最让人糊涂的是，他们手里全是历史数据，让你信以为真。
What's crazy the way that they they get you, because they have all the historical numbers.
那些数字是真的，但钱是他们自己的。
It's real numbers, but they have their own money.
钱在他们的系统里转一圈，再循环回去。
They're running through their system, and they're just recycling it.
你买下之后，他们还会继续操作大概三个月。
Then after you buy it, they would continue to make purchases for about three months.
所以你还能收到钱，但最后就突然断了。
So you'd still have income coming in, and eventually, it just fell off.
这真让人泄气，我本来就想多挣点小钱而已。
So that was really deflating because I was like, damn, I'm just trying to eke out a little bit extra.
但回到你最初的问题，我本来都忘了这一点，因为我现在跑题跑得太远了
But then for me, going back to your original question, which I forgot about this point because I'm on
太多岔路了。
so many bunny trails.
你现在可是在搞特朗普式编发啊。
But You're you're doing the the Trump weave right now.
是的。
Yeah.
我把所有这些都重新串起来，搞特朗普式编发。
I'm doing the Trump weave it all back together here.
我想说的是，我发现自己其实只擅长几件事，越是要去碰那些我不擅长的东西，结果就越不顺。
The the the bit the point here is what I learned is I'm really good at a few things, and the more I try and veer off different paths and try to do things I'm not good at, the more things just don't work.
对吧。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以当我决定开始的时候，
So then when I started to okay.
我就全身心投入阿斯彭了。
I'm gonna go all in on aspen.
对。
Mhmm.
因为我知道自己有这个机会，也有相应的技能去做，而且我也清楚，
Because I knew I had the opportunity, and I knew I had the skill sets to go do it, and I also knew, hey.
虽然有些短板，但我知道自己可以慢慢补上。
There's some gaps, but I know I can go fill those gaps over time.
这样才对。
So good.
当我这么做的时候，我原有的技能就开始不断积累，一切都像火箭一样飞速提升。
When I started doing that, then it was it was compounding the skills that I had, and it was it was a rocket ship to everything else.
对我来说，这等于彻底剔除了所有我不擅长的东西。
And and for me, it became the elimination of everything that was not good at.
对吧？
Right?
很多人在三十多岁的时候都会尝试各种东西，我那时候也是这样。
Because a lot of experimentation people do, I think, in their thirties, and that was me as well.
但我现在已经专注了。
But I'm locked in.
到这一步，我几乎能轻松拒绝所有别的事，因为我清楚自己擅长什么、什么能真正推动进展——毕竟我已经试过太多没用的东西了。
I'm I'm like, it's easy for me at this point to just say no to almost everything because I know what I'm good at, what's gonna move the needle because I've tried enough things that haven't.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得在加入Aspen之前，跟你聊过一次，好像是通过短信，但我清楚记得当时坐在那儿，跟我老婆说，那时候我快三十出头了，我就想，真希望能去Aspen，因为我那时候已经试过不少创业项目了。
You know, I remember before I joined aspen having this conversation with you, I think it would just be a text, but I remember sitting there being towards my wife, you know, I was approaching mid thirties at that point, and I just said, you know, I would love to be at a because I had experimented a lot with different businesses and entrepreneurship stuff at that point.
我就想，接下来二十、二十五年，就专心做一件事，因为我知道，只要能持续积累，结果一定会爆发。
Like, I would love just to spend the next twenty, twenty five years building one thing, because I know if I could just compound that, it would blow up.
因为那时候，我已经有过不少成功了。
Because at that point, I had a lot of many successes.
这些小生意、小项目，还有那边的那些事，但我觉得我认识的每一个三十岁左右的人，都特别欠缺一种专注力——真的，把精力集中在一个技能或能力上，这种复利效应太被低估了。
This little business and this little business and this thing over here, but I think that's an underappreciated value in almost every 30 year old I meet is focus and just man, what like the compounding effect of just focusing in on a skill or an ability.
就算现在收入不高，但只要你持续精进，这绝对是条特别特别棒的建议。
And, you know, even if it doesn't pay well now, like, as you get better now, think that's an incredible, incredible piece of advice.
我得赶紧说一句，因为我还想问你个问题：我三十岁的时候，其实根本没搞懂什么叫相关性。
My quickly, because I want to ask you other question is, I didn't still think I understood correlation in my 30s.
那时候我太沉迷于单点押注了。
Like, just way too invested in single assets.
那是个错误，我完全没意识到：哦，原来还有分散投资这回事？
And, you know, that's, that was a mistake I just didn't understand like, Oh, diversification?
我说的分散投资，是以为做了好几个项目就算分散了，结果全扎在同一个行业里。
Well, diversification, but when we talk a lot about, you know, I thought I was diversified because I was in multiple deals, but all in the same sector.
明白了。
Got it.
那要是这个行业突然不行了，会怎么样？
Right, and so what happens when that sector turns?
你完蛋了。
You're screwed.
是的。
Yeah.
没错，我之前根本没意识到这点，现在才明白，要建立起这样的投资组合有多难。分散投资不等于不相关，真正的关键是把钱投到不同行业和领域，这价值太大了。
Right, and so I think I underappreciated that and now again, realizing how hard it is to create that, just again, understanding portfolio construction and that diversification is not the same thing as uncorrelation or non correlation, And then having money in different sectors and verticals is such a value, right?
我现在对财富积累的态度比以前谨慎多了。
Like I've just become way more defensive around wealth creation than I was.
以前总觉得所有东西都会一直涨，这真是个大错误。
They just thought it would all go up, you know, and that was a huge mistake.
你看到别人常犯的错误是什么？
What about mistake you see other people making?
嗯，
Well,
我觉得跟刚才说的有关，缺乏专注可能是那种藏得很深的错误，因为你总看到那些导师们说：快去搞被动收入，快去做这个、做那个，找各种方式多赚点钱。
I think to kind of dovetail on that one, I do think lack of focus is probably one of those mistakes that kind of hide in plain sight, because you see all the gurus talking about go and generate passive income and go do this and go do that and find ways instead of making extra buck.
但事实上，你拥有非常独特的技能，而且特别擅长，能赚不少钱，可你却从没想过怎么把这份能力发挥到极致？
When the reality is, you have a very unique skill set that you're really good at, you make a lot of money for, and you're not thinking about how do I go and maximize this?
我的看法是，我是从雇员的角度来说的，而不是创业者，但我觉得这对两者都适用。
Because my my opinion I'm I'm using this in an employee perspective, right, versus an entrepreneur, but I think it applies to both.
如果你在谷歌、脸书这样的公司当工程师，收入已经相当不错了。
If you're an engineer at Google or Facebook or whatever, and you're making, you know, really good money.
那你就不该花时间去琢磨怎么搞Airbnb。
The you shouldn't spend any time going try and figure out Airbnb.
对吧？
Right?
你该去研究的是人工智能。
What you should figure out is AI.
怎么才能用你现有的技能，把收入翻一倍？
And how do I go and double the income I can make doing the skill set that I have?
这可是你已经非常熟悉的东西。
And it's something I already know very well.
我已经非常擅长这个了。
I'm already very good at it.
我拥有大多数人不具备的独特优势。
And I have a unique edge over most people that can't do what I do.
我学到的是，那种一万小时法则，往往在你三十多岁快结束时才真正开始发挥作用。
And what what I've learned is that that kind of ten thousand hour rule really starts to kick in at the tail end of your thirties.
归根结底，你之所以能赚钱，是因为你为某个终端用户——无论是你的雇主还是你的客户——提供了价值。
Because at the end of the day, the way you make money, the only reason you get paid any money or make any money is because you are providing value for some end user of either your business or your employer.
所以，如果你能找到方法，为你所在的公司或自己的事业创造更多价值，你的收入就会直接增加。
So if you can find ways to create more value for the business you work for, or for your own business, you will directly make more money.
我看到很多人浪费了机会，总觉得答案在别处，其实价值就在眼前，关键是怎么把它发挥到极致。
And so I see a lot of people do is they leave a lot on the table because they think the answer is to go look somewhere else to go find it when it's just actually sitting right there and figuring out how do I go and maximize it.
我觉得这个观点我最早是从加里·维纳查克那里听来的。
I think Gary Vaynerchuk was actually one that I heard this concept from.
他说，你根本没必要去想搞什么副业。
He's like, you shouldn't even think about doing a side gig.
在你把所有精力都用在提升主业收入之前，根本别想着搞什么被动收入。
You shouldn't even think about trying to make passive income until you've exhausted every ounce of effort to make more money in doing the primary thing that makes you money.
对吧？
Right?
这一点其实对很多人来说都特别明显。
And that's, I think, a huge obvious one for people.
至于三十岁，我觉得关键就在于提升技能、拓展人脉、找准自己的位置。
And then I think, you know, to me, thirties are all about skill building, network building, and positioning yourself.
当然，你要投资。
So yes, be investing.
也要存钱，给预算留出余地。
Yes, be saving money and create margin in your budget.
更要想办法多赚钱。
Yes, be finding ways to earn more money.
但我自己发现，真正限制我成长和职业发展的，其实是十年前的那些想法。
But what I found personally is I have been the biggest limiting factor on my own growth, my own career, is the beliefs that I had ten years ago.
回头想想，我就对自己说：本，你以前的想法真够傻的。
Looking back, I'm like, Ben, that was stupid that you thought that.
因为你现在已经远远超过了当年想象中五十岁、六十岁时能达到的水平。
Because you're already, like, five times farther than you thought you would be in your fifties or sixties.
如果真是这样，那为什么不能比十年前预想的多出一百倍呢？对我来说，关键就在于怎么打破这些限制性信念，而方法就是多和那些比你领先很多的人在一起。
If that's true, then why can't I be a 100 times farther than where I thought I was gonna be ten years So to me, so much of it is how do you break the limiting beliefs and how you do that when you get around people that are way farther ahead than you.
多读点书，
You read a lot of books and
然后去行动。
do it.
我觉得就是这样，对吧？
I think that's it, right?
我觉得就是得去行动。
I think do it.
我总是觉得，你读的书、你交往的人，再加上那种紧迫感和行动力，才是关键。
I always agree, like, the books you read, the people you hang out with, and really having, yeah, like a sense of urgency and a sense of action, I think is key.
你知道吗，我想换一个角度说，因为你和我都属于类似的圈子。
You know, I'll take this a different way, because you and I have been part of similar groups.
我有个很有趣的发现：我们曾经身处一些房间，里面的人净资产远超我们，收入也比我们多得多——无论是过去还是现在。
I have feeling very interesting, we've been in rooms with people that have significant larger net worth than we do have made significant more income than we have or have in the past or do currently.
就我个人而言，在那些场合里，我总觉得自己刻意往比自己更富有的人堆里凑，但后来我发现，大多数情况下，几乎有九成的人，反而很少出现我接下来要说的那种情况。
And I mean, least me in particular, in what I found in those rooms, I thought it was always very interesting, know, here I was typically trying to put myself in a room where there's people, you know, larger me from net worth income standpoint, but what I found out coming in the day is that a lot of them, the majority of them, like almost 90%, it was almost more rare to find the opposite of what I'm about to say.
尽管他们的净资产远高于我，收入也远比我那时挣得多，但我渐渐发现，我们担心的事情居然一模一样。
The majority of folks, even though their net worth was significantly more than mine, and their income was typically much more than I was paying myself at the time, I began to find that like, we still worried about the same things.
我忍不住想，这是为什么？
And I was like, why is that?
明明我们已经这么成功了，可还是在为同样的财务问题焦虑，这到底是怎么回事？
Like, here we are, but we're still from a financial standpoint, we're still worried about we saw a lot of the same anxieties when it comes to finances.
我开始怀疑，我到底在追求什么？
It's almost like, well, what am I building towards?
如果我们担心的还是这些事，那我们到底在拼什么？
Yeah, if we still are worried about the same stuff, what what is the what's happening here?
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我后来才明白，问题出在生活方式的膨胀上。
And here's what I began to realize is lifestyle creep.
那些人年收入五十万、七十五万美元，而我当时每月才挣一万块，一年十二万，可他们连生意稍微下滑一点都承受不起。
Is that the same person paying themselves, you know, half $1,000,000 a year, 750,000 a year, and here I am, you know, paying myself at that time, maybe $10,000 a month, 120,000 a year is they couldn't afford a setback in their business.
生意一有点收缩，他们就急得团团转。
They couldn't afford to, you know, their business started contract a little bit, and they're freaking out.
我当时就想，你到底在慌什么？
And I'm thinking, what are you freaking out of?
真相是，他们已经没法承受收入突然减少十万、二十五万美元的打击了，全是因为生活开销一路水涨船高。
And the reality is because they couldn't afford anymore to take $100,000.250000 dollars hit in their income because of lifestyle creep.
我觉得很多人犯的最大错误就在这儿，这也是为什么我觉得培养这种能力特别重要——我也不知道该怎么称呼它。
And I think that is the biggest thing I see a lot of people making mistakes on is, and this is why think it's so important to kind of build this, I don't know, what do you call it?
这种能力、这种认知，正是为什么我觉得在开销和生活上保持灵活这么关键，因为它能让你有更长时间去承担风险。
This skill, this value, this mindset is the reason why I do think it's important to kind of be be nimble from a cost or living standpoint, is because it allows you to take more risk for longer.
我花了好一阵子才看明白，因为太多人的生活水平，总是跟收入绑得死死的。
And I just, it was just a while to see that because so many people like their lifestyle, really just kind of stays on par with their income.
我觉得那对我而言是一次很好的成长经历，因为我可不想到了四五十岁，虽然净资产或收入挺高，但生活开销也跟着水涨船高。
And I think it was just it was a good learning experience for me, because I'm like, I don't want to be in my 40s or in my 50s, and have a significant net worth or have significant income.
一旦收入下滑，我就没法再冒险，也没法继续投资自己，只能被困住。
But my lifestyle is called up to that so that if I do have contraction, I can't continue to go take risk or continue to invest back in myself, and I feel stuck.
我看到这一点后就下定决心，这辈子绝不能让自己陷入这种境地。
And that's what I saw, and I was like, I'm never going to let that happen to me in my life.
是的，这确实是个很深刻的领悟。
Yeah, it's a powerful realization.
我觉得很多人跟我们平时想的一样，只要实现了目标X、Y、Z，现在担心的那些问题就都会自动消失。
I think a lot of people assume, like a lot of things in our life, once I achieve X, Y, and Z, all these things I'm worried about right now will just go away.
但事实并非如此，根本不会这样。
But it doesn't, it doesn't happen.
回到三十岁的时候打基础，培养技能，认真管好预算和开支，留出缓冲空间，这些习惯会一直伴随你。
And going back to like building the foundation in your 30s is the skills in the the time that you spend working on your budget and working on your expenses and trying to create margin carry through.
因为人一旦赚更多钱，如果没有自制力，钱总会找各种借口溜走。
Because as humans, we just make more money and you're not disciplined, like, it it it'll find a way out the the back door.
事情本来就是这样。
It's it's just it's how it is.
所以你得培养自律，提升财商，清楚自己在做什么。
So you have to build discipline in the really, financial acumen to be able to know what you're doing.
但我觉得你提到的另一点特别重要，就是留出缓冲空间。
But I think the other point you're saying, and I think this is so important, is creating breathing room.
在开支上留出余地，保持财务上的弹性。
Create breathing room in your expenses and the margin you have.
在流动性上也要留出余地。
Create breathing room in your liquidity.
对吧？
Right?
我们最近刚读了一本书，书名想不起来了，讲的是一个擅长企业重组的大佬，操盘过好多大型上市公司的扭亏为盈。
And I think we just read a book, I forget the name of it, but, one of the is the big turnaround guy that did all these huge turnarounds of public companies.
他有个特别简单的做事框架，其中一条核心就是：建立财务护城河。
He's a very simple framework for what he did, and one of the main things he said was, you build a financial moat.
要想活得长久，真正留在游戏中并让形势为你所用，最有效的方法之一就是多存点钱。
One of the most powerful things you can do for longevity and just being in the game, letting combat work for you, is just to have excess savings.
留点多余的现金在流动性里，随时能用，因为事情不可能总是一路向好。
Let's have some excess cash sitting there on liquidity that you can use if you have Because the problem is that everything doesn't always go up into the right, always.
市场有周期，也有低谷，当你手头有足够的缓冲、余地和空间时，才能在困难时期真正抓住机会。
There are cycles, there are downturns, and so the more that you have to be able to have cushion and margin and breathing room when things are challenging, that allows you to to really benefit.
现在，一下子全想起来了，是格雷格·布伦南写的。
Right now, and all at once, I think by Greg Brennan.
对，没错。
Yes.
谢谢。
Thank you.
那本书是
That was
一本非常好的书。
a great great book.
所以我想换个话题，考虑到我们都三十多岁了，你知道，你显然
So I want I want to transition considering all senior thirties, you know, clearly you
我也做过不少
and I have done a
另类投资，说实话，我们这个年纪做这么多的可能真没几个，毕竟这本来就是我们的职业，我们的财富主要也是靠另类投资，尤其是房地产积累起来的。
lot of alt investing, you know, probably more than most in our thirties, just given that that's our our profession, and we've made a lot of our wealth through alternatives, especially real estate.
所以我想问几个问题。
And so let's I'm going ask a couple questions here.
你最早做的另类投资是什么？结果怎么样？
What was your first alternative investment and and how did it go?
你还记得吗？
Do you remember?
这是个好问题。
It's a great question.
可能是那个俄罗斯骗局。
It might have been the Russian scam.
那之后就是俄罗斯骗局了。
After the Russian scam.
结果不太理想。
Didn't work so well.
被骗之后，大概就转投房地产了。
After a Russian scam, it was probably real estate.
是的。
Yeah.
那后来怎么样？
How'd it go?
我是说，早期那些项目。
Yeah, mean, the earlier ones.
说点具体的细节会更有帮助。
Details would be helpful.
对，房地产方面，我们当年在高峰期投过一些多户住宅，那些项目确实挺难的。
Yeah, I mean, the real estate, think we did some multifamily back in the peak, and so those ones have struggled for sure.
但我一直坚持美元成本平均法，每年都在持续投资，是的。
But it's just been my opinion has been the dollar cost average, so I've been investing consistently every year Mhmm.
过去六七年都是这样。
For the past six, seven years.
所以呢。
And so
那你是怎么做到即使看到某些投资表现不佳，还能坚持继续投入的呢？
And what gave you kind of the resilience to continue to invest in also when you saw maybe some things underperform?
我觉得关键还是回到你擅长的、你熟悉的领域，我就懂房地产，也懂私募另类投资。
You know, I think going back to do what you're good at and do what you know, I've just I know, real estate, and I know, private alternatives.
我一直以来就在这个圈子里打转。
That's just the world I've been in.
说实话，我和大多数人正好相反，我95%的财富都投在私募另类资产里，而不是公开市场。
I mean, I'm, I'm the opposite of most people, I have 95% of my wealth in private alternatives, right, instead of in the public markets.
在我看来，上一轮房地产调整，主要还是市场周期驱动的。
I think to me, what we saw in the last real estate correction, to me is mostly market driven.
我知道这些东西都有周期，我研究过不少市场周期，心里有数。
And I know those things go in cycles, I've studied enough market cycles to know.
问题不在资产类别本身，而在市场情绪。
It's not an issue with the asset class is an issue with the market.
我觉得现在反而是加码的好时机，对吧？
And I actually think it's a really good time to be doubling down, right?
如果你看到股市下跌，又是个长期投资者，最好的做法就是坚持定投，趁着价格低多买点，这样能摊薄成本，未来反弹时收益空间也更大。
If you see values go down in the stock market and you're a long term investor, the best thing you can do is buy dollar cost average into a decline because it lowers your basis and positions you for more upside down the road.
当然，一路上也有过让我忍不住感叹：天啊，这真够煎熬的。
So I think obviously there was points along the way where I was like, dang, this is painful.
这跟我当初想的完全不一样。
This is not what I expected.
确实挺有挑战的，但这也是我们玩的游戏，是我熟悉的领域，而且我投资的周期很长，我知道自己
This is, you know, challenging, but it's also the game we're in, the game I know, and also investing for a lot of time horizon that I know I
能扛得住这种波动。
can absorb those kind of cycles.
通常来说，三十岁左右是你如果具备条件，第一次考虑另类投资的好时机。
Typically your thirties is typically, I would say your first alternative if you have the ability to invest in alts.
很多人到三十岁还没在公开市场之外投过资，一方面是因为合格投资者身份通常这时候才刚达到。
You typically haven't invested outside of public market into your thirties, one from accreditation standpoint, typically don't become.
那对于三十岁左右的人来说，现阶段最值得考虑的另类投资有哪些呢？
So what would be kind of the best alternatives someone in the thirties would consider at this point?
我在这档播客里说过很多次，如果你或者你的配偶有能力成为房地产专业人士，做短期租赁，利用短期租赁的税务漏洞，我觉得这简直是打开了税务优化的大门——因为你能把亏损抵扣掉你的工资收入，这种操作在其他地方几乎做不到，只有油气投资能比。
Well, I've said on the podcast a lot, I think if you have the ability, or one of your, spouses have the ability to go become a real estate professional, or do short term rentals and use a short term rental loophole, to me, that's, it's a massive unlock for gaming the tax system because you get huge, ability to write off losses against your earned income, which you can't do anywhere else, except for oil and gas.
而且这本身就是个很自然的选择。
And it's a it's a natural place.
很多人一开始都是从做Airbnb或者短期租赁入手的。
A lot of people start is, like, go do an Airbnb or a short term rental.
这里的规则对普通人来说其实挺容易满足的，能顺利拿到税务优惠。
The the rules there are pretty achievable for people, to get the tax benefits.
我有个朋友现在正在走整个流程，买他的第一处房产，他收入挺高的。
I have a friend right now who's going through the whole the whole process of buying his first one, and he makes a big income.
但他妻子是全职妈妈，接下来会负责管理这套出租房。
But his wife is a stay at home mom, but she's gonna start managing this rental.
这对他们来说会是一个巨大的转变。
It's gonna be a game changer for them.
每年光是税务就能省下五万到八万美元。
Like, they save 50 to $80,000 in taxes, just taxes per year.
从投资组合的角度来看，对于三十岁出头的人来说，理想的资产配置应该是什么样子，尤其是包含另类投资的时候？
What from a portfolio standpoint, what what would you say that would look like, you know, an ideal portfolio construction, including alternatives for someone in their early to mid thirties?
确实，关键要看我们说的是多大的净资产，对吧？
Yeah, mean, to me, all comes down to what is the net worth we're talking about, right?
如果你的净资产只有几十万美元，就像你之前说的，分散风险很重要，而私人另类投资通常有个问题，就是最低投资门槛往往比较高。
If you're just at a couple $100,000, to your earlier point, diversification risk, a lot of times the downside of private alternatives is the minimum check size is usually quite a bit higher.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
所以是二十五万、五十万、一百万美元。
So it's 25, dollars 50,000, dollars 100,000.
所以在没有造成个人投资组合过度集中风险的情况下，很难进入这些领域。
So it's difficult to get into them without creating too much risk in your own personal portfolio of concentration.
因此，我觉得在公开市场构建一个不错的投资组合很有价值。
And so, you know, I think there's a lot of lot of merit for building a nice portfolio in the public markets.
如果你能把这些资金放进个人自主管理的IRA账户，享受税收递延，以后再逐步转向另类投资。
And if you can put them into, you know, self directed IRAs, so you have control over them, tax deferred, and then you can eventually move them over into alternatives.
但这取决于你的净资产规模。
But depends on the net worth.
如果你的净资产达到一百万美元，那完全可以开始制定一个合理的配置计划，投入一些私募资产，实现真正的分散化。
If you're at a million dollar net worth, then, you know, I think you could definitely start doing a nice allocation plan, put it into privates, and get some some true diversification.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
火花。
Spark.
所以
So
咱们就用几个随机问题来收尾吧。
let's do let's end here with a couple of rabbit questions.
我随便抛几个词出来，有的是一两个词，就想在本期节目的最后聊聊这些话题。
So I'm just gonna throw out kind of some single word, there's maybe two or three words in some of these, but just I want to give us a topic in the last part of this episode, we're just going to kind of rift on these little ones.
好，第一个，理财顾问。
Okay, so first one, financial advisers.
这是两个词，不过
That's two words, by
顺便说一下。
the way.
我第一反应是什么？
What what first comes to my head?
毕竟这行人数不少，每个人的看法也五花八门。
I mean, there's a lot of them and wide variety of of opinions that that these people have.
我早年特别固执，觉得凡事都得自己搞明白，不需要别人指手画脚。
I early on was very much, I want to figure out myself, I don't need people to tell me what to do.
但随着年纪增长，我多了点谦逊，也开始明白，生活中不同阶段确实需要找不同领域的专家来帮忙，尤其是那些我根本不了解的领域。
As I've gone on, I've had a little more humility, I think, and I've appreciated having different advisors in different parts of my my life that are speaking of things that I don't really know that well.
投资这块我挺在行，但遗产规划、信托、法律这些我完全不懂，税务更是门外汉。
I'm really good at the investing side, but I don't know the estate planning side, I don't I don't know all the legal side and trust side, I don't know the tax side at all.
这些事，根本超出了我的能力范围。
Like, these are things that are outside of my will.
所以我特别感激能请专业人士来帮我处理这些事。
And so I really am grateful to hire people to do that.
我觉得和很多人不同的是，我始终把自己当成自己财务的CEO。
The difference, I think, from a lot of people is I still view myself as the CEO of my own money.
最终拍板的，还是我自己。
I'm still the one making all the decisions.
我请顾问来帮我做出更好的决策。
I'm hiring consultants to help me make better decisions.
但最终还是要我来为结果负责。
But I'm still the one faulting responsible for the outcome.
我觉得这就是我用顾问的方式——他们在行的时候就听他们的，但别把方向盘交出去。
And I think that's maybe my viewpoint of use advisors where they're helpful, but don't hand the keys over to your king.
是的。
Yeah.
不过你说的挺有意思，你提到的那些财务顾问的服务，其实只有当你净资产达到两三百万时才真正需要。
Well, it's interesting what you said though, everything you said for a financial advisor that you need is something you really don't need until you have 2 or $3,000,000 in net worth.
我觉得大多数人还是该找个财务顾问，因为大多数人没时间去搞懂自己该做什么。但问题是，大多数财务顾问自己也需要顾问，所以你得小心挑选。
And you know, I do think most people should have a financial advisor, because most people don't take the other time, take time to understand what they should And do their problem is that most financial advisors need a financial advisor, so you do have to be careful.
所以我觉得，如果你三十多岁，目标只是长期积累，比如尽可能多存钱、投资自己，或者把不用的钱投在能复利增长的东西上，那真没必要请财务顾问。
That's why think in your thirties, if the goal is just long, like put as much money into long term, you know, either invest in yourself and the money you're not using, invest in yourself invest in things that can compound is like, really don't need a financial advisor for that.
对。
Right.
对，所以你需要低成本的指数基金，或者你自己操作的私人房地产。
Right, and so you need low cost index funds, or private real estate that you're doing.
从三十岁这个阶段来看，我觉得财务顾问被高估了。
And so from a from a 30 standpoint, I think a financial advisor is overrated.
等你的净资产增长起来之后，我觉得财务顾问就绝对值这个钱了。
Right now, your net worth grows, I think a financial advisor is absolutely worth that.
但现在，无论是公开市场还是私人市场，资源都这么容易获取，我真不明白，为什么净资产还没到一百万或两百万的人还要付这么高的顾问费。
But with how accessible things are today, both public and private markets, you know, I have a hard time understanding why you would pay any overhead to a financial adviser when your net worth is under a million or $2,000,000.
没错。
For sure.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得，这其实把责任和学习的责任交给了每个人，我认为这才是最好的做法。
I also think too, it puts the onus of responsibility and learning things on each individual person, I think that's the best thing you can do.
再说一遍，提升技能、积累知识，尤其是投资方面的，将来一定会带来巨大的回报。
Again, building the skills, building the knowledge, especially around investing too, that's going to massively pay off down the road.
401(k)账户。
Four zero one ks's.
我没有。
I don't have one.
所以你没在搞这个？
So you don't you're not doing it?
我还没开我的LLC公司。
Well, I still need to open up my hub LLC.
还没办呢。
Haven't done it yet.
还是打算要开的。
Planning on it still.
我可能会通过这家公司开一个个人401(k)账户。
And I'll likely open up a solo four zero one k through that.
不过说实话，我早年在有这种计划的公司工作时，确实缴过，也拿过公司配比。
But to me, I've never I have been in employers that had them earlier on, and I did contribute to them and got the match.
但当我开始自己投资时，我就直接交了罚款，把钱取出来了。
But then when I started my own investing, I just took paid the penalty and took the cash out.
我不喜欢自己的钱被锁住。
I just don't like my money being locked up.
我说不好。
I don't know.
就是看着钱放在那儿却用不了，我实在受不了。
It's just hard for me to, like, see it there and not be able to use it.
我非常支持，我觉得我是个坚定的支持者。
I'm a big fan, I would say a big fan.
好吧。
Okay.
我对这件事的看法已经变了。
I I have changed my mind on this.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得如果你是雇员——顺便说一下，我现在是个雇员了，这对我来说是个挺大的转变，都快四十岁了才换这种身份——公司提供了401(k)计划，还匹配供款。
And I think if you're an employer employee, which, by way, I'm I'm now an employee, which is kind of a change first change, you know, a big change for me in my mid thirties, And $4.00 1 k was offered, and I get a match.
所以我觉得每个人都该拿满公司匹配，这等于白送的100%回报，还不用你额外做什么。
So I think everyone should take the match because that's a 100% return instantly that you had to do no work for.
在我看来，这种机会绝对不能错过。
So like, in my opinion, like that you should absolutely take that.
我看待401(k)的方式，就跟看待罗斯IRA账户一样，都是属于合格的退休账户。
Think the way I see four zero one k is the same way I think about like a Roth IRA bucket is like, those are qualified account.
这些是合格的退休储蓄账户，只要条件允许，就应该尽量往里存钱。
Those are qualified, like retirement qualified buckets that you want to try and fill up if possible.
因为你的投资收益增长速度，通常会快过你的收入增长。
If you have the income to fill up, because again, like your portfolio will compound faster than your income.
所以我现在的做法是：先拿满公司匹配，然后再把钱存进罗斯IRA账户。
So I just see it as like, one, I'm taking the match, but then I'm going go fill my Roth.
等罗斯IRA账户填满了，401(k)又成了下一个可以继续充实的目标。
And then as I fill my Roth four zero one ks is there again to go fill up also.
所以我觉得我自己的想法变了，我觉得401(k)是个不错的选择，因为我根本不介意。
And so I just think I've changed, I think four zero one ks's are a great play because I don't mind.
这可能就是我们稍微有点不同的地方。
And this is maybe where we differ a little bit.
我不介意我的钱被锁定着。
I don't mind my money being locked up.
我说的锁定，意思是这笔钱是长期投入的，会随着时间不断增长和复利积累。
Like I want and I say locked up meaning like this is long term money that is going to grow and compound over time.
我觉得401(k)是个很有战略意义的账户。
I think four zero one ks is a strategic bucket.
关键区别在这里。
Here's the difference.
你得搞清楚你的401(k)账户具体收哪些费用。
You need to make sure and understand what your the fees are on your four zero one ks.
如果你有能力决定资金投向，那一定要好好挑，因为很多401(k)产品费用层层叠加，你根本不清楚自己到底在投什么。
What if you have the ability to, you know, distinguish where you want your capital invested, because a lot of these four zero one k's are layered with fees, you don't know what you're investing in.
所以我喜欢我们的401(k)允许我们一定程度上自己选择投资方向，这样我就能继续选一些低费用、低管理费的指数基金，对吧？
So I like that our four zero one k allows us the ability to choose what we're, you know, somewhat choose what we're going to invest in, so I can invest again in kind of low fee, low carry index funds, right?
这一点我特别喜欢。
And so I like that a lot.
股票和债券。
Socks and bonds.
对我来说配置得太少了。
Way under allocated for me.
这其实挺有意思的，因为我觉得我和鲍勃情况差不多，写完这本书、研究了那么多亿万富翁之后，发现他们确实更注重资产平衡。
It's actually kind of interesting because, I think Bob and I are both in the same boat where after writing the book, researching all the billionaires, they do have a little more balance.
我也渐渐意识到，自己真的需要这种平衡。
And I think I'm realizing the need for that personally.
所以我当初的起点，跟大多数人不太一样。
So I kind of went the, you know, start a different starting point than most people.
但我现在确实看到了流动性的价值。
But I actually see the value of having liquidity.
而且是在公开市场上。
And, you know, it in the public market.
所以我现在正试着在公开市场上建立更大的仓位。就目前的时机，也就是2026年6月来说，我对债券比股票更看好，所以我会把更多资金分配给债券。
So I'm trying to build up some bigger position in the public markets right now, at the current moment in time in you know June 2026, I'm more bullish on bonds than stocks, so I'll be allocating more there.
这不是理财建议。
Not financial advice.
对，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
我们没时间
We won't have time to
讨论这个了。
talk about that.
对，我确实觉得这有点道理，也有价值。
But yeah, I do see some merit there, some value there.
另外，当我们进入大规模招聘、不是那种盲目扩张，而是针对新项目的收购时，银行会把你的股票和债券组合视为流动性资产。所以这在我们当前的战略中其实是个优势，能让我们跟银行的关系更紧密。
And also, as we're going into big hiring, not hiring spree, acquisition spree of new deals, banks actually value your stock portfolios, bond portfolios as liquidity, and so it actually has a strategic advantage for what we're doing as well, to position ourselves better with the banks.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你可以在净资产里体现出来，而且需要的时候也能随时动用。
Because you can show it on your net worth and you have the access to it if you need it.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
说实话，我不明白，三十多岁甚至四十多岁的人，怎么还会只持有债券，但我现在更看好股票，因为长期增长潜力更大。
I I don't understand, to be honest with you, in your thirties or even your forties why you own a single bond, but I saw I'm a big, I would say I'm more bullish today on stocks, because of the long term growth.
我明白收益率现在为什么这么高，也懂你为什么这么讲，但从长远来看，股票的表现还是会更强。
I do understand kind of where the yield is, and why you would say that just how that's inverted at this point, but I think from a long term standpoint, stocks are going to outperform.
而且我觉得，如果你
And I do think If you
十年后再买的话。
buy them ten years from now.
它们现在的估值达到了前所未有的高位。
They're at the highest valuation they've been at in very long.
我明白你的意思，但数据非常清楚：过去三十年里，不管你什么时候进场，只要投资市场，不空仓，赚的钱都会更多。
No, I understand that, but the the data is really clear, it doesn't matter when you've entered in over the last thirty years So being in the market versus not being in the market, or being invested versus not being invested, you're gonna make more money.
比如从1975年到2015年这四十年，股市的年化回报率达到了12%。
I mean, a forty year period from 1975 to 2015, the stock market had a 12% annualized return.
那在这段期间里，股市的估值不也曾经很高过吗？
So were there were there highest valuations during that period as well?
是的。
Yes.
所以我想说的是，股市从来都是有高有低的。
So my point is, like, there's always gonna be highs and lows in the stock market.
但这是否意味着我把所有钱都投进股市了呢？
Now does that mean I'm all in the stock market?
并没有。
No.
但你根本没法精准把握时机。
But you're never gonna be able time that.
要是股市再涨80%怎么办？
What if the stock market ripped for another 80%?
问题就在于，所有的估值指标好像都失灵了。
My that's the problem is all evaluation metrics seem to be irrelevant with the the
这真的太难了。
It's it's so hard.
那你能怎么办呢？
It's like, so what do you do?
对吧？
Right?
总的来说，我挺支持把一部分资金放在股票里，但要有上限。
So I I think in general, big fan of stocks up to a certain percentage.
债券嘛，我不太懂。
Bonds, don't understand.
买房。
Homeownership.
是的，我有房。
Yeah, I own a home.
这是好主意还是坏主意？
Good idea or bad idea?
这个真挺有意思的，因为我对这个问题的看法改变了很多。一开始我也没像你那样彻底说只租房不买房，自从有了家庭，我一直都有自己的房子，但我现在更觉得房子不是投资，就是一家人住的地方。
I don't know, is a really interesting one, because I've shifted my perspective a lot on this earlier on, and I think I never went as far as you to say I'm only ever going to rent what I live in, because I've always owned a home since we had a family, but I really view a home much less as an investment as I do just a, you know, something that our family gets to You live
你买房是因为你老婆希望你买，对吧？
own your home because your wife wants you to own your home, okay?
你就直说吧，别拐弯抹角。
Just go ahead and come out and publicly say it.
从投资角度来说，买房根本不是什么明智的选择。
There's no personal good investment decision to own your home.
尤其是现在。
Especially right now.
百分之百。
It's 100%.
是个糟糕的投资。
A terrible investment.
它能让你安心。
It gives you peace of mind.
它带来身份感，也让你能做女性说的‘安家’。
It gives you status, and it allows you to what females call nest.
我把这看作是对家庭的投资。
I view it as an investment in my family.
百分百对吧？
A 100 Right?
我不会指望靠它赚钱，但我们买了一小块带几亩地的房产，孩子们特别喜欢，这才是它的价值所在。我买它可不是为了赚三倍回报。
So it's I'm not going to make any money on it, but we just got a little little property with a couple acres, and it's so fun for my kids, it's to me that's the value of it, but I'm not buying the home expecting to make a 300% return
没错，如果纯粹是财富考量，那确实不划算，但一般人买房通常不是为了这个。
on Yes, my if it's only a wealth decision, it's a bad decision, but that's typically not why we buy homes.
当然了
For sure,
我刚卖掉了最后一套房子，亏了不少钱。
And I just sold my last home and I lost a ton of money on it.
所以算下来，说实话，我也没比之前强多少。
So the net net, you know, I'm not that any further ahead.
这就引出了我最后一个问题，我之前写的是家庭和金钱之间的权衡。
Which leads me to the last question, you know, what I wrote in was kind of family versus money.
我真正想说的是，陪家人的时间和多赚点钱，你怎么平衡这两者？
And what I really meant is time with family versus additional money, how do you balance those two?
天啊，真是个好问题。
Man, yeah, really good question.
我以前那种拼命干、追求财务自由、早早退休的心态，目标是四十多岁就退休。
I think my perspective earlier on with that kind of fire mentality, financial independence, early, I wanted my goal is to retire by, like, mid forties.
所以我得先攒够足够的钱，然后才能做自己想做的事，多陪陪家人。
So I had to throw up enough money, I guess, then do whatever I want to spend time with family.
但后来我意识到，要达到那个目标，我得拼命工作，等我真的能提前退休时，孩子们都快长大离家了，我错过了他们成长中最关键的那些时刻，整整一辈子就那么过去了。
But then the problem was I realized to get to that point, I have to work a crazy amount of hours, and by the time I actually could retire early, a lot of my kids would be out of the house and I like miss, I would have missed the most important times when they're with me, you know, with 100% of their life.
所以我彻底转变了想法，现在我想做一件自己真正喜欢的事，既能赚不少钱，又能有灵活的时间安排。
So I really shifted to where I want to do something I enjoy doing, I can make good money at, but I also had flexibility in my schedule.
这也是我们在阿斯彭努力推行的理念——工作和生活要平衡，对吧？
And that's something that I'm, you know, we try to implement here at aspen, if we have a good work life balance, right?
如果你需要早点走，去接孩子放学，或者去参加足球训练，那就去吧，这些事比多挣几个钱重要多了。
If you got to go and take off all the early day, or pick up a kid from school or go to soccer practice, like, go and do that because that's way more important than, you know, you're trying to earn extra buck.
有趣的是，我后来发现，如果真让我停下工作，我都不知道该干嘛了。
And then the kind of funny thing I've realized is I don't know what the heck I would do if I stopped working.
我真的很喜欢我们正在做的事。
I love what we what we do.
到现在这个阶段，我根本不想退休。
Like, at this point, I don't ever want to retire.
将来也许我会少干点，多陪陪家人，但说实话，我现在一点都没觉得因为工作亏欠了家人。
Now over time, I probably want to maybe work a little less hours or have a little more time with family, but I also don't feel like I'm giving up anything right now with my family.
所以，说实话，这东西可能随着时间慢慢变了，但对我来说，关键是怎么让工作和生活真正融合，契合你当前的人生阶段。
And so, yeah, I mean, it's probably evolved over time again, but that's to me, it's like, how do you have work life integration that fits for the the stage of life that you're in?
是的。
Yeah.
完全对。
Totally.
尤其是当你真心喜欢自己做的事的时候。
Especially if you love what you do.
我最近刚带着我儿子去了一趟太浩湖。
We always we just I just went to Tahoe with my little man.
他才三岁。
He's three.
我们在飞机上坐着的时候。
And we were sitting on the plane.
他正在睡觉。
He was napping.
所以我有机会静静地看着这个小家伙，你知道吗，平时根本没这机会。
And so I had a chance to just, like, look at this little still boy, you know, like, you never get a chance to do that.
那一刻我突然明白，我愿意拿我拥有的一切去换他。
And it just hit me like, I would trade a 100% of everything I have.
希望我永远不用做这种选择，但要是非得在他和钱之间选，我选他。
If if hopefully, I never have to decide that, but but like him or money.
哦，没错。
Oh, yeah.
我愿意付出所有。
Like, I would everything.
那些都不重要了。
It wouldn't that matter.
以前觉得天大的损失，现在看来都没那么大影响了。
Like, the losses almost kind of did like, they just have so much less impact.
所以我在想，这到底意味着什么？
And so I think, what does that mean?
我不会因为想多陪孩子就真的停下工作，因为我也意识到，到了周日晚上，我就又想回办公室了。但我觉得关键在于，我并不是在拼命攒退休金或赚更多钱，如果这意味着要牺牲陪孩子的时间，那我觉得这其中必须有个平衡。
It's not going to stop working and just go spend time with my kids, because I also realized like, by about Sunday night, I'm ready to get to the office, you know, but I do think it is that of just like the, you know, I'm not trying to maximize how much I can put in my retirement or how much I can make, if it also, you know, means I'm going to sacrifice time with them, I think there's a real balance there.
我觉得这又回到了期望和现实之间的差距。很多人以为，只要攒到一定资产、赚到一定收入，就会更快乐、压力更小，真正享受生活。
I think it goes back again to expectations versus reality in a lot of people that expect, hey, if I go and get x number of net worth or x number of income, then I'll be happier, then I'll be less stressed, then I can really enjoy life.
但事实上，每一个我聊过的、达到目标的人，情况都一模一样。
And 100% of the time, every single person that I've ever talked with that have hit their number, it's not any different.
你为了达成目标，花了很多钱，牺牲了很多东西——陪家人的时间、睡眠、健康，这些其实对长寿和幸福特别重要的东西。可当你终于到达目的地时，才发现……
Like, you you you spend and you give up a lot to go achieve this by sacrificing time with family, sacrificing, you know, sleep and health and all these other things that are actually really important to longevity and happiness that you end up getting to that destination and realizing Mhmm.
我到底为什么要为这些牺牲一切？因为它们根本不是快乐的来源。
I don't know why I sacrificed for all this because it was not actually the source of happiness.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这说得特别好。
I think it's really good.
再想想，很多听你说话的人可能都三十多岁，我也想说，我猜不少三十多岁的人也有这种感受，也许不只我一个人这样，我坦白一下。
Think too, like, a lot of people listening to you in their thirties, I I would just say, like, I I also feel I say also because I imagine a lot of people in their thirties feel this way, or maybe it's just me, and here's a confession.
我就是觉得，明明知道自己并不落后，甚至可能比那些人走得还靠前，可还是有种焦虑感，这种矛盾一直陪着我。
It's like, I I do feel like, I live with this tension, right, like this anxiety, even though I know I'm not behind, I'm probably farther ahead than those.
我总觉得落后了。
I feel behind.
主要因为我还不到四十岁，目标又太大了，感觉离实现还差得远。另一方面，我又在想，得再努力攒点钱，可同时又特别想多陪陪家人。
Mainly because I'm just in my thirties and my goal is so large, I'm like, I'm so far from And then I also have this tension of like, okay, I need to go do more from a wealth standpoint, but man, I really want to spend more time with my family.
我也不太清楚。
I don't know,
你知道吗。
you know
你觉得呢？
what I think?
我觉得，这就是你生活中一直要面对的矛盾。
I think it's just the dynamic intention you live with.
如果你感受不到这两种情绪，那要么你不够有抱负，要么你不够爱家人。
And if you didn't feel both, you wouldn't be ambitious, and you wouldn't love your family.
我觉得，这种矛盾就是那些既想把事情做好、又深爱家庭的人必须学会面对的，关键是怎么安排时间，让每一分时间都值得。
And I think it's just a tension that someone who wants to do well and loves family, you just kind of figure out how to live into that tension and make the time, you know, make the time worth it.
所以我才说，这种感觉其实很常见，我认识的很多人，如果你也有这种感受，那恭喜你，你正式进入三十岁了，
So the reason I say this, I just think like, it's a normal feeling, think for
很多
a lot
你的人生阶段。这种感觉要是出现了，别担心，欢迎来到三十岁，欢迎来到你的
of people that I know, if you're feeling that, you know, welcome to the 30 welcome to your
三十岁，我不知道这种感觉会不会真的消失。
30 I don't know if it ever goes away.
我觉得，哪怕到了五六十岁，这种矛盾依然会存在。
I think there's always gonna be some element of that tension, even if you get to your fifties and sixties.
它只是会稍微变个样子，但那些张力始终都在。
And it's like, there's just it just changes a little bit, but the those tensions are always there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以啊，一路走来的时候，就好好享受吧。
So enjoy it while while you go along.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得我的看法就是，活着的时候，能珍惜的每一刻都别放过。
That's kind of my my perspective is just enjoy every moment of life that you can while you're living it.
对我来说，最突出的性格特点就是总想着未来。
I think that for me is my, like, primary personality trait is futurist.
我总是活在将来。
Like, I live in the future.
是的。
Yeah.
我老在琢磨未来会是什么样子，而我老婆恰恰完全相反。
I'm always looking for what the future's gonna look like, and my wife is, like, the exact opposite.
她觉得当下才是一切，所以……
It's like the present is everything, so
你不能总想着明天。
you can't think about tomorrow.
但我真的很欣赏这一点，因为你活在当下。
But I actually really appreciated it because you're living right now.
对吧？
Right?
如果你连今天和孩子在一起的时光都享受不了，比如我今晚还要去教软式棒球，我就得把脑子里所有别的事都关掉，全心陪在他们身边。
And if you can't enjoy the moments with your kids today, and, you know, I'm coaching softball later tonight, you know, I'm like, I have to, like, shut it all on my brain and just be there.
当我这么做的时候，那种满足感真是无与伦比。
And when I do that, it's like the most fulfilling thing.
这就是我此刻该珍惜的时刻，这才是真正重要的事，活在当下，好好享受。
It's like, this is the moment I'm gonna live in right now, and this is what really matters, and enjoy it while you're living it.
是的。
Yeah.
等我们四十岁的时候，再这么聊一次吧？
Let's do this again in our forties, shall we?
看看我们后来变了多少
See see what we change
十年后再说。
ten years later.
咱们到时候再碰个头吧。
Let's let's check-in.
到时候看看。
Let's see
是不是真有道理。
if we're right.
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