帕特里克·奥肖内西 - 以原则创造 - [像最好的人一样投资，第455集]

把那些时刻作为指引，来判断你的原则可能是什么，或者你该做什么，我认为这非常好。

And using those as a signpost to what your principle might be or what you should be doing, I think, is a really great thing.

我也正是这样记得十五年前读到这句话的。

And that's certainly how I remember reading that line fifteen years ago as well.

然后开始追寻那种活着的感觉。

And then starting to chase the feeling of being alive.

不是追求一个目标，而只是那种感觉。

Not a goal, but just that feeling.

顺便说一句，每个人都能回答这个问题。

And everyone can answer this question, by the way.

这是一个与人交谈的绝佳方式，可以问问他们在哪里感受到这种状态，然后也问问他们为什么没有更多地去做那些让他们有这种感觉的事——这真是人类的一种有趣处境：明明知道什么最让他们感到充满生机，却在大部分人生中都不去这么做。

It's a great way to have a conversation with someone, to kind of feel ask them where they feel this, and then also why they're not doing more of whatever the answer happens to be, which is a funny circumstance of humans that kind of know what makes them feel most alive, and then they don't do it most of their lives.

这是一个非常有趣的问题。

That's a very interesting question.

你猜他们为什么不这么做？

What's your guess on why they don't?

通常，原因很简单，就是恐惧。

Usually, it's simple, which is fear.

害怕如果走一条原创的道路，我会以为最好的故事总会胜出。

Fear that by pursuing an original path, I have this idea that the best story always wins.

在过去几个月里，我确实一直在认真思考：我到底认为‘最好的故事’意味着什么？

And I actually spent the last couple of months, like, really trying to figure out what do I think best story means?

而我所能想到的关于好故事的最好原则是：原创性、艰辛和转变。

And the best principles for a great story that I could come up with were originality, hardship, and transformation.

如果你深入探究原创性，这一点对我来说特别有趣，因为人们通常不追求原创，是因为他们害怕未知——原创之路本质上意味着一切都要靠自己，这让人感到不安和困难。

And if you dig into originality, that one is really interesting to me because people don't pursue original past usually because they're fearful of the unknown, because an original path by definition means it's all gonna be on you, and that's uncomfortable and hard.

而且，原创之路通常意味着离开一种非常舒适但令人恐惧的现状。

And because an original path usually means leaving a very comfortable current existence in a way that's scary.

所以我认为，当你深入追问人们为什么不做时，他们给出的理由最终都会归结为：我害怕。

And so I think when you really drill people on why not, they'll give reasons that add up to, I'm I'm afraid.

而这一点很难

And that's hard to

克服。

get over.

你以前告诉我，你曾经是个热衷于内省的受虐狂。

You've said to me before that you used to be a masochist for introspection.

首先，那是什么时候停止的？

First of when did that stop?

然后，你认为这帮助你找到了生活的指导原则吗？

And then do you think that helped you find this organizing principle for your life?

这确实帮助我找到了它，因为我希望不浪费生命。

It definitely helped me find it because I wanted to not waste life.

当我还是个小孩子，五岁左右的时候，我有一种对死亡的极度恐惧。

When I was a little kid, young, five years old or whatever, I had this just crippling fear of death.

我记得我父母每晚都得坐着握住我的手，我才能睡着。

Like, I remember my mom and dad would have to sit and hold my hand for me to fall asleep at night.

原因是我会不断陷入一个疯狂的想法——也许这就是我研究哲学的原因：总有一天，我会不复存在。

And the reason was I would just sit there spiraling on this crazy idea, maybe this is why I studied philosophy, that like, someday, I would not exist.

这让我极度不安，而且持续了数十年。

And that just freaked me out, and did for decades.

因此，这很可能开启了我人生中的这段内省时期，我对哲学传统、宗教传统、形而上学以及所有这类东西产生了浓厚兴趣，因为我想要弄清楚这一切到底有什么意义。

So that probably kicked off this introspective period of my life where I was very curious about philosophical traditions and religious traditions and metaphysics and all this kind of stuff because I wanted to know what the hell is the point of all this.

到底意义何在？

Like, what's the point?

生命的含义是什么？

What's the meaning?

存在的目的是什么？

What's the purpose?

否则，这简直令人恐惧，对吧？我们只是短暂地存在，然后就消失了。

And otherwise, it's just terrifying, right, that we're here for a blip and then gone.

简直令人恐惧。

Just terrifying.

我尽量不去深思这个问题。

I try not to sit down and think about it too much.

事实上，我想继续往下说。

In fact, I'd like to move on.

但那开启了一个阶段，是的，我想理解自己和他人。

But that kicked off this period of, yeah, I wanted to understand myself and others.

因此，我非常内省。

And so I was very introspective.

当然，这让我不想过一种枯燥的生活，我非常害怕过这种按部就班的人生。

And of course, that made me want to not live a dull life, and I was very scared of just like living this train track existence.

所以，是的，这确实帮助了我很多。

So yeah, it did help a lot.

但有趣的是，一旦我真正弄清楚了我想做什么，我就再也不去想它了。

But interestingly, once I have clicked into, I think, understanding what I want to do, I don't think about it at all.

现在我的生活中几乎不再有内省了。

And now I have very little introspection left in my life.

我曾经如此痴迷于各种性格测试及其含义、心理学、探索，以及所有这些现代方法，而如今，我虽然没有完全失去兴趣，但对这些的兴趣已经大减。

I used to be so obsessed with all of these personality tests and what they mean, and psychology, and seeking, and like all the modern methods for doing that, and I've kind of just lost, not total interest, but I've lost a lot of my interest in that.

你解决了你使用它时遇到的问题。

You solved the problem that you were using it.

也许吧。

Maybe.

内省是一种工具，一旦任务完成，就不需要再使用这个工具了。

Introspection was the tool, and then, like, you don't need to use the tool once the job is done.

是的，也许吧。

Yeah, maybe.

也许这是对的。

Maybe that's right.

你之前提到我们有不同的方法，然后你想谈谈这个。

You mentioned earlier that we have different approaches, and then you wanted to talk about that.

你之前提到我们有不同的方法，然后你想谈谈这个。

What do you think like, I'm always curious, again, like, some of the stuff I should not say on a podcast, But I'm always curious, like, people that know me well Yeah.

比如，那些了解我的人，他们对我的看法和我自己的看法有什么不同？

Like, what is their interpretation of, like, their view of me that is different than my own?

那么，你觉得我的组织原则是什么？

So, like, what do you think my organizing principle is?

你的组织原则。

Your organizing principle.

如果你的原则只是尽可能帮助更多人，而这就是生活的意义，并且你通过媒体、资本和人际关系拥有所有这些资源来实现它。

If yours is just helping as many people as possible, and this is what life's about, and then you have all these resources to do so through media and capital and relationships.

为了澄清一下，我的目标并不是尽可能帮助更多人。

Just to clarify, it's not helping as many people as possible.

我的目标是发现那些巨大、尚未实现的潜力。

It is trying to see enormous, like, not yet realized potential.

好的。

Okay.

我的原则是，当我发现这种潜力时，我有责任去推动它，即使我可能一无所有，也许我会投资，也许最终我从中受益，但那不是重点，重点是我有责任告诉人们，并帮助它成真。

And my principle is that is when I do, it is my obligation with nothing and maybe I invest, maybe maybe I end up benefiting, but that's not the point, that it's my obligation to tell people about it and to help foster it into existence.

所以，你知道，这是个重要的区别。

So, you know, important difference.

我花了十年时间才说清楚我的组织原则。

Well, it took me a decade to state my organizing principle.

我没法在几分钟内说出你的原则，但你可能是我认识的人中最专注、最忠于自己事业的人——因为大多数像你一样在各自领域取得成功的人，都会开始拓展方向。

I'm not gonna be able to name yours in a minute, but you're probably the most single-minded and devoted to what they do person that I know in the sense that most people that have achieved a level of success in their field or in their job that you have begin to branch.

当一个人取得成功后，世界就会拉着他进入这种多线发展的状态，最终做很多不同的事情，以各种方式变现，进入不同的业务领域，改变做事方式，不断扩张。

The world, when that happens, pulls you into this branching exercise, where you end up doing lots of different stuff, And that, you know, you end up monetizing in different ways, or going into different lines of business, or changing how you do things, expanding.

你这种专注的程度，和我认识的其他人截然不同。

The single mindedness that you have is quite distinct from the people that I know.

那么，你为什么这么做呢？

And, you know, why are you doing it?

我的意思是，我想你私下和我聊过，也在公开场合谈过，我们来自截然不同的背景。

I mean, I think you've talked about this certainly in private with me, but also in public about, you know, you came from we came from opposite circumstances.

比如，我生来就站在了本垒板上，或者说是滑垒进本垒。

Like, I was born on proverbial third base or sliding into home.

我出身于一个极其成功的创业家族。

I come from a history of extremely successful entrepreneurs.

我的曾祖父有着有史以来最棒的名字，他叫伊格纳修斯·阿洛伊修斯·奥肖内西。

My great grandfather, who had the best name ever, his name was Ignatius Aloysius O'Shaughnessy.

大家都叫他IA。

Everyone called him IA.

我想他是13个孩子中的第13个。

He was, I think, the thirteenth of 13 kids.

他曾是美国最富有的人之一。

He was one of the richest men in in The United States.

他是个石油勘探者，他打下的第一个油井，我想直到今天还在产油，位于中西部。

He was an oil wildcatter, first first oil hole he ever drilled, I think still pumps oil to this day in the Midwest.

因此，他是个巨擘，后来在反垄断浪潮中，也就是围绕标准石油的反垄断案中，他的资产被拆分了。

And so he was a giant, he was broken up in the antitrust, you know, in the Rockville or antitrust stuff around Standard Oil.

我们家族从他身上获得了极大的启发，因为他创造了这笔财富。

And our family takes great inspiration from him because he made this fortune.

但他根本不在乎钱。

He did not give a shit about money.

他其实没怎么花过钱。

He didn't really spend it.

他一生中几乎把所有财富都捐了出去，而且大多是匿名捐赠。

He gave away basically all of it in his lifetime, mostly anonymously.

我爸爸讲过一个故事，说他11岁那年参加IA的葬礼，现场来了很多人，但没人知道他们是誰。

My dad tells the story about being at his funeral when my dad was 11, and all these people were there, and no one knew who they were.

我爸爸会走过去问其中一个人：‘你是谁？’

And my dad would go up to one and be like, who are you?

他们就会说：‘先生，IA，我给他剪过头发，他资助我的孩子上了大学，还给我买了房子，或者IA帮了我这样那样的忙。’

And and they would say, well, mister IA, you know, I cut his hair, and he put my kids through college and bought me a house, or mister IA did this or this or this.

我们甚至都不知道钱都去了哪里。

And we didn't even know where it went.

我一直以来都受益于家族中这种非凡的商业成功历史。

And I have benefited from this tremendous history of business success in and around my family forever.

而你则来自完全不同的背景。

Whereas you came from a very different set of circumstances.

我们的朋友萨姆有一个观点，认为有商业的创始人，也有家庭的创始人。

Our friend Sam has this idea of there's founders of businesses, and there's founders of families.

我认为你就是你家庭的创始人。

And I think of you as the founder of your family.

我觉得这非常强大，我认为这是你最伟大的成就——让这些特质代代相传。

And I think that's incredibly powerful, and I think it's your greatest accomplishment that things repeat through the generations.

你常说起父亲和儿子的故事，你知道的，是相同的。

You're fond of saying the story of the father and the son are, you know, are the same.

要打破这种家庭传统，走上一条全新的道路，需要极大的品格、意志力、天赋和许多其他东西，而你做到了，我觉得这非常了不起。

And it takes tremendous character, willpower, talent, lots of stuff, to break from that family tradition and go a new direction, which you've done, which I just think is remarkable.

我不知道这是否就是你拒绝让家族继续沿袭你出生前那种轨迹的根本原因。

And I don't know if that's the underlying why that you refused to let your family continue to go the same direction that it had gone up until you were born.

正如萨姆所说，我们也讨论过，你主动去寻找导师，因为你生活中没有他们。

And you went, as Sam would say, and we've talked about, you went searching for mentors because you didn't have them in your life.

你从书籍和企业家身上找到了他们，并且从此一直向所有人讲述这些经历。

You found them in books and in founders, and you've been telling everybody about it ever since.

这个方法帮你改变了人生。

It worked for you to change your life.

现在，根据你的工作，我们知道你的工作正在以你首先改变自己人生的方式，改变着其他人的生活，但你才是第一个受益者。

And now we know, based on your work, that your work is now changing other people's lives in that same way that you changed your own first, but you were the first beneficiary of it.

那么，你的原则或原因是什么？

And so what is your principle or why?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许你不必一直沿着别人给你的方向走下去。

Maybe it's that you don't have to just keep going the same direction that you were given.

你可以另辟蹊径，开创全新的东西。

You can break off and found something new.

我觉得这非常了不起。

I think that's pretty amazing.

我觉得很多时候，当我找到那本书时，我特别能共鸣你所说的，那一刻，你发现某一段话、某一句话就像一记重锤直接砸在脸上。

I think there's a lot of times I really resonate what you said when you found that book, and you're like, you know, this paragraph, this sentence just, like, hits you with, a hammer to the face.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

这也是，你知道的，我用播客来做到这一点。

This is also, like you know, I use podcasts for this.

主要是阅读，我觉得人们太快地匆匆掠过东西了。

Reading mainly, it's like, I think people are rushing through things too fast.

你知道，我以只用一倍速听播客而闻名。

You know, I'm famous for only listening to podcasts on one x.

大家都说，哦，你读很多书。

Everybody's like, oh, you read a lot.

你一定读得很快。

You must read fast.

是的。

I'm like, yeah.

每小时25页，已经很快了。

25 pages an hour fast.

我不是在进行速读。

Like, I'm not speed reading here.

我认为我想要的是理解。

I think I want understanding.

我想了解事物的真实面貌，而不是人类声称它们的样子。

And, like, I want understanding of how things actually are, not how humans say they are.

人类不仅一直在欺骗自己，如果你在欺骗自己，那你自然也会为了自己的行为或动机而欺骗他人。

And humans, not only are we lying to ourselves constantly, which is if you're lying to yourself, of course, you're lying to other people about why you're doing what you're doing or what you're doing what it is that you're doing.

这就是为什么我如此喜欢自传和传记，因为在很多情况下，这些人的生命已经走到了尽头，或者他们已经年迈，只是在80岁时写下这本书。

And this is why I like autobiographies and biographies so much, because in many cases, the person's, like, long past dead or they're older, and they're just like, I'm writing this book when I'm 80.

我没有理由去撒谎。

Like, I have no I'm not incentivized to to lie.

这就是我经历过的所有事情。

Like, here's the stuff I went through.

嗯。

Mhmm.

无论是当什么样的父亲，处理与女性的关系，还是经营生意，都会遇到麻烦。

And the trouble with whatever, being what kind of dad you are, trouble with women, trouble with business.

但你会意识到，你所经历的一切，别人都已经经历过。

But you realize there's nothing that you're experiencing that somebody else hasn't already experienced.

所以我想要的是对人性真实面貌、人类本性以及我们所创造的世界的真正理解，然后我借助他们的故事。

And so what I want is true understanding of humanity as it is, human nature as it is, and the world that we're creating, and then I use their stories.

这其实并不是关于他们的。

It's not really about them.

这是关于你的。

It's about you.

我认为这和我无关。

And I think this I don't think this has to with do me.

当你看一部好电影、听一个精彩的故事、或一首动人的歌时，你不会想，哦，这发生在泰勒·斯威夫特身上。

I think when you watch a great movie, you hear a great story, you hear a great song, you're not thinking about, oh, this happened to Taylor Swift.

你会想，哦，我在一段关系中也有过同样的经历，或者我经历过完全相同的事。

You're like, oh, I had that same experience in this relationship, or I went through this exact same thing.

这是一种理解的形式。

And it's a form of understanding.

我现在正身处其中。

I'm in the middle of this right now.

我们刚才在楼上吃午饭，你知道，本质上，我正处在试图找到我想在这本书中讲述的故事的过程中，这个故事抓住了我整整六个月。

We were just having lunch upstairs, And, you know, essentially, like, I'm just, like, in the middle of, like, trying to find the story that I wanna tell with this book that grabbed ahold of me for six months.

我跟你说过这本书，是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的自传。

I told you about this is Bruce Springsteen's autobiography.

我甚至都不听他的音乐。

I'm not I don't even listen to his music.

我跟你说过，就在那时，这本书里有些内容，简直就像这家伙钻进了我的脑子里。

And I told you about this right, like, right when I was like, there's stuff in this book that, like, this dude looks like he crawled inside of my mind.

而且，

And,

尤其是关于他如何看待自己的工作以及工作对他的影响，这根本不是一句完整的话。

like, especially in regards to how he views his work and the impact that it has on it, it's like, that is not a sentence.

这根本不是一段话。

That is not a paragraph.

这简直就是为我此刻阅读而写的。

That is like, that was made for me to read this at this point.

它强大到令人上瘾，就像毒品一样。

And it's insanely powerful and to the point where it's like a drug.

你知道的，我一早就跟你说过了。

You know, I I told you, like, right away.

你啊，我真得给你点个赞。

You again, I need to, like, give you credit.

我们回头再聊这个‘毒品’和‘理解’吧，因为我觉得这真的很重要——关于人们为什么理解我想和某些人交谈，为什么我当时那么坚持，甚至有点逼着你做这件事，我们还改了几次时间。

We'll go back to this drug and understanding because, like, I think this is really important about, like, people understanding why I wanna talk to certain people and why, like, I was freaking adamant and, like, kinda pushing you on this, and we rescheduled a few times.

我敢说，如果不是因为你，我根本不会做这件事——不仅因为你给了创始人这个平台，那个播客，还有我们一起做的那期疯狂节目，我觉得那简直是天赐良机。

And I'm like, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you, not only because the platform that you gave founders, right, the podcast, then that crazy episode that we did together, which I think is like we're never like, that was like lightning in the bottle.

确实是。

It was.

是的

Yeah.

投资就像最好的那种。

It's invest like the best.

标题是激情与痛苦。

The title is passion and pain.

人们总是问，哦，你们画过草图吗？

And people are always oh, like, did you guys sketch this?

我说，没有。

Was like, no.

帕特里克不会那样画草图。

Patrick doesn't sketch things out like that.

他说，我们建立了友谊。

He's like, we built a friendship.

我想让你上节目。

I want you on the show.

我是说，我觉得你没告诉我我们会聊什么。

Like, I don't think you told me anything we're gonna talk about.

我记得你之前给我发过几小时的消息。

I do remember you texted me a few hours.

我们原定是上午10点进行。

Were supposed to do at 10AM.

你说：嘿。

You're like, hey.

我被推迟了。

I got pushed back.

我们能改到下午1点吗？

Can we do 1PM?

我心想：哦，不。

I'm like, oh, no.

我的大脑只在早上工作。

My brain only works in the morning.

所以我小睡了一会儿，现在坐在这间隔间里。

So I took a quick power nap, and I'm in this booth.

我们没用视频，但你能看到我，我坐在这个我放在家里的电话亭里，这种电话亭原本是给办公室用的，而我正好有一个。

We didn't do video, but you can see me, and I'm in this phone booth that I put in my house that was the only person these phone booths are on these offices, and I had one.

他们送货到我家，说：‘我们以前从没送过货到别人家里。’

They came and delivered to my house, and they're like, you know, we've never delivered to somebody's house before.

我当时说：‘这根本不是电话亭。’

I was like, this isn't a phone booth.

这明明是个播客录音室。

This is a podcast studio.

这对我来说再合理不过了。

This makes perfect sense to me.

然后我们就进行了那次对话，那是一个巨大的转折点。

And then we just had that conversation, that was a huge inflection point.

那之后的那个周末，是我一生中最疯狂的周末之一。

That weekend that happened after that was one of the craziest weekends of my entire life.

但你多年来一直催促我。

But then you pushed me for years.

你总说，你应该录下这些对话。

You're like, you should be recording conversations.

你应该录下这些对话。

You should be recording these conversations.

你在干什么？

What are you doing?

我说，不。

And I was like, no.

不。

No.

这是分心。

It's distraction.

我不想做。

I don't wanna do it.

我不想去做这件事。

I don't wanna do it.

然后，你知道，我讲过很多次这个故事了，但我认为，真的很重要的是，如果当年我和你没有在纽约和丹尼尔·埃克共进晚餐，我现在就不会做我现在正在做的事情。

And then, you know, I've told the story a bunch, but I think, like, it's really important where, like, I would not be doing what I'm doing right now at this very moment if we didn't have me and you had this dinner with Daniel Ek in New York.

那场谈话持续了四个小时。

It lasted four hours.

我知道你不喜欢我告诉你我跟别人聊了多久。

I know you don't like when I tell you how long I talk to people.

这是大卫的一个小习惯。

This is one of David's quirks.

每次他都会告诉你他跟别人聊了多久。

He tells you how long he talked to someone every time.

因为我不想

Because I'm not

我刚和佐恩吃了四个小时的午餐。

I just had this four hour lunch with Zones.

是的

Yeah.

因为我根本不在乎表面的东西。

Because I'm not interested in superficial at all.

我见了一个人，但我不能告诉你他是谁。

I met I can't tell you who it was.

我只是吃了顿晚饭。

I just had dinner.

那持续了多久？

How long was it?

我现在就告诉你。

I'm gonna tell you right now.

但我们第一次见面时的晚餐非常精彩，而且你知道，是他们主动提出的。

But it was an incredible dinner the first time we met, and you know, it was unexpected, requested by them.

餐吃到三个小时的时候，这个人说：我跟你讲的这些事，是别人从来不知道的。

And three hours into this, this person's like, I have told you things no one else knows about me.

这是我第一次见到他们。

It's the very first time I met them.

所以，我真的对表面的东西毫无兴趣，我认为你必须长时间交谈，因为需要一点时间才能慢慢打开，真正了解一个人。

So it's just just I have no I have no interest in the superficial, and I think you have to talk for a long time because it takes a little while to get, like, warmed up and, like, feel the person out.

这就是为什么你之前说的很重要——少而深的关系。

And this is why what you said earlier is so important, like, fewer deep relationships.

老兄，想想我们那场疯狂的对话吧，虽然我们不会重提，但我和你就在特拉维夫凌晨两点，进行了一场长达两个半小时的疯狂交谈。

Dude, think about the crazy conversation, which we're not gonna, you know, relive, but, like, me and you just had an insane two and a half hour conversation at in Tel Aviv at, like, two in the morning.

嗯。

Mhmm.

要达到那种程度的坦诚和深入交流，你必须花上好几年去了解一个人。

You know, that to have that level of honesty and conversation, like, you would have to have, like, years of, like, getting to know somebody.

所以我确实认为

So I do think

你也正在通过这些节目和对话，为人们提供一套‘食材’，但重要的是，人们需要自己去调配出属于他们的配方。

also think you're providing people with a sort of set of ingredients, maybe, through these episodes and conversations, but that it's important that people then go make their own recipe.

你不应该只想活成某某某的样子。

Like, you shouldn't just wanna live like person x y z.

你所采访的很多人在生活中都面临类似的陷阱，有人可能会觉得这些陷阱是成功的必然副产品。

A lot of people you cover have the same pitfalls in their lives, and one might be tempted to think those pitfalls are just inevitable byproducts of success.

但我讨厌这种想法。

But I hate that kind of thinking.

我觉得，去他的基准率。

I think, like, screw base rates.

我才不在乎什么基准率呢。

Care what the base I never care what the base rate is.

最有趣的东西，按定义就是异常值。

Like, the whole the most interesting stuff is outliers by definition.

所以我不关心其他人发生了什么。

So I don't care what happened to everybody else.

我不在乎有没有什么常见的陷阱。

I don't care if, you know, there's common pitfalls.

我觉得，人们很重要的是要根据你从这些精彩而有趣的人生中提炼出的素材，自己去调制属于自己的配方，而这一切只是为了你自己。

Like, I think it's important that people take their own make their own recipe from the ingredients that that you've offered them from all these amazing and interesting lives that you've studied, and you're just doing that for yourself.

这确实就是我的探索过程。

Like, that's that's been the search.

对我来说，确实如此。

I think it is for myself.

你对他人感兴趣，而且以一种我并不具备的方式。

You are interested in other people and, frankly, in a way that I am not.

我注意到这是非常真实的，每次我们和别人在一起时都会发生这种情况。

And I've seen it's like very real, and it happens every time we're with other people together.

我会想，哦，他真的是真心想了解。

I'm like, oh, he, like, actually wants to know.

我一直在寻找：我究竟该如何避免过上一团糟的生活。

We're like, I am on this search of like, how the hell do I not have a terrible life.

这就是为什么我认为，让你走到今天这一步的那套能力，很多人到了一定程度就会停滞不前。

This is why I think the skill set that gets you to where you are, like, many people plateau.

而且，我不感兴趣停留在平庸的状态。

And like, I'm not I'm not interested in plateauing.

我不感兴趣敷衍了事。

I'm not interested in mailing it in.

我感兴趣的是，我想走到我生命的尽头。

I'm interested in I wanna get to my end of my life.

我不希望只是在巨大的潜在可能性上跳个舞。

I don't wanna tap dance on a giant reservoir of potential.

我希望当我走到生命尽头时，没有任何一件事是我本可以做得更好的。

I want there was nothing more that I could have possibly done with my skill set and everything else.

我想弄清楚如何最大限度地发挥这些能力。

I wanna figure out how to get the most out of that.

你刚才提到布鲁斯·费恩斯坦的自传里有一句话，他说人们去听摇滚演出或音乐会，不是为了学习。

There's something you just said about there's a line in this Bruce Feinstein autobiography where he's like, people don't come to rock shows or to concerts, rather, to learn.

他们去是为了提醒自己那些早已知道是真实的事情。

They come to remind them for you to remind them of stuff they already know is true.

我认为，是的，你肯定会学到东西，因为在一本400页的传记里，肯定有各种创造性的点子教你如何创办公司。

And I think, yeah, you're going to learn, there's obviously creative ideas on how to build a company in a 400 page biography of somebody.

但你会意识到，其中很多内容是你早已知道且认为正确的。

But what you're going to realize is there's a lot of stuff that you already know and you know is true.

要么是你没去实践，要么是你忘了，或者你只是短暂地做过，现在你需要一个提醒。

Either you haven't applied it or you forgot it or you did it for a little bit, and you need a reminder.

这就是为什么我和你总是把创业者比作教堂。

This is why me and you always describe founders, it's church.

是的，教堂，对于

It's church Well, for

在这个教堂里，我认为最核心、最有趣的问题是：你读这些故事时，所有故事都回到我所说的原创性、艰辛与转变——最好的故事胜出，而原创性在于激励人们去思考：我的独特之处是什么？

in that church, I think the animating interesting question is you read these stories, all of which, back to my idea of originality, hardship, transformation, you know, best story wins, that originality is you're inspiring people to wonder, what's my thing?

每个人都有自己的东西。

Everyone's got something.

我敢保证。

I guarantee it.

这正是我在对话中最喜欢寻找的东西，尤其是当对方还没做到的时候，这其实和寻找一种未被实现的潜力是一样的。

Like, it's my favorite thing to search for in conversation, especially if someone's not yet doing it, which is kind of the same the same search for an unrealized potential or something.

每个人都有那么一件事，无论出于何种原因——他们的生活经历、天性、与生俱来的天赋——寻找这件事既有趣又艰难。

Everyone has a thing that, for whatever set of reasons, their life experiences, how they're wired, their naturally endowed gifts, and searching for that thing is really interesting and really hard.

我认为，《创始人》这本书持续为我做的，就是向我展示那些愿意花功夫去发现自己那件事的人，而一旦他们找到了，就用余生去培育它。

And I think that's what Founders continues to do for me is show me examples of people that went to the trouble to find their thing, and then once they found it, foster it the rest of their life.

而且，一旦你找到了自己的那件事，接下来就是困难。

And again, once you find your thing, the second thing is hardship.

这本来就不该是容易的。

It's not supposed to be easy.

任何有意义的事都不可能轻松，这没关系。

Like, nothing meaningful is easy, and that's fine.

当你明白了这一点，事情才会真正变得有趣——我总是有种感觉，当某件事变得太容易、我只是机械地应付时，我会感到非常不安，并想尝试以某种新的方式挑战自己。

And then once you learn that, I think that's when it gets really fun is that the I always have this feeling the second something just feels easy and I'm kind of going through the motions, I get really uncomfortable and wanna try to push myself in in some new way.

但我觉得，《创始人》这本书做得特别好的一点是，它让我回想起我们关系的起点，为什么我会发那条推文，为什么我们第一次聊天就聊了一个小时。

But I think that's what Founders does so well, is it shows it's what back to the very beginning of our relationship, and why I sent that tweet out, and why we talked to each other for an hour the first time we talked.

因为这太独特、太不同了，而且令人鼓舞。

It's because it was so unique and so different and inspiring.

所以我认为这对人们来说是一件很有力量的事情。

So I think it's a powerful thing to do for people.

我想当我这么说的时候，这是我的组织原则吗？

I I think when I I say it's like, is my organizing principle?

我想去理解事物。

It's like, I wanna understand things.

或者我不想理解事物。

Or I wanna understand not things.

我想理解的是人。

I wanna understand people.

要理解人，你必须深入探究，比如发生了什么？

And to understand people, you have to go deep and like, what happened?

你出生在哪里？

Where were you born?

当时发生了什么？

What was going on?

这段经历是什么样的？

What was this experience like?

你必须花大量时间向他们提问，进行漫长而深入的对话。

You have to just spend a lot of time asking them questions and having these long, deep conversations.

我认为，真正了解的人，我身边只有寥寥几人。

And I don't think I mean, there's a handful of people that I feel I truly know.

这需要很长时间。

It takes a long time.

至少需要一百个小时的对话，这是最低限度。

It takes at least one hundred hours of conversation on the low end.

你提到你说过，这是你的组织原则，是的。

You mentioned you said organizing principle Yeah.

我觉得这是正确的。

Which I think that's correct.

只是为了进一步探讨，因为这现在可以成为我们未来几年讨论的话题——这可能需要这么长时间才能说清楚——但这与你发明的原则是不同的。

Just to push, because this can now be something we talk about for the next couple of years, which is probably how long it'll take to articulate, that's different than what is your principle for invention.

所以回到基于原则进行发明这个想法。

So back to the idea of inventing on principle.

这个原则应该是这样的：当你看到它被违背时，你有责任去纠正它，而这种纠正是一种为他人服务的行为，而不是为了自己。

The principle should be something that when you see it violated, it is your obligation to go correct it, and that that correction is an act of service for other people, not for yourself.

这与你无关。

It's not about you.

这正是这个理念如此强大的原因。

And that's what makes the idea so powerful.

我同意，这就是你的组织原则。

I agree that that's your organizing principle.

这正是你做你所做之事背后的驱动力。

That's like the thing behind why you're doing what you're doing.

尝试明确发明的原则会很有趣，因为这正是你正在做的事。

It will be fun to try to pin down what the principle is for invention, because that's what you're doing.

你正在创造新事物，这是人生中最有趣、最有回报的体验。

You're making new things, which is the most fun and rewarding experience of a lifetime.

我记得约瑟夫·坎贝尔的一本生平文集里，由他的侄女之类的人整理的那段开场引言。

And I remember the the the little opening quote in this compilation of his life's writing by Joseph Campbell that was done by his niece or something.

那本书的开场引言是：一生中最珍贵的特权，就是做你自己。

That little opening quote in the book is the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.

那些创造出最有趣事物的人，这些作品都是他们自我的反映。

And the people that make things that are the most interesting, those things are a reflection of themselves.

这是最可持续的创造形式。

That's the most sustainable form of creation.

如果你能将自己的特质倾注到你所创造的事物中，而这些事物又能以某种方式服务他人，我认为这才是我们真正追求的东西。

If you can sort of spill yourself onto the thing you're making, which benefits others, the thing, you know, being of service to other people in some way, I think that's the thing that we're actually, I think that's what we're all after.

我认为我们所有人都渴望以某种微小的方式参与创造的行为，这种行为反映了宏大尺度上正在进行的创造。

I think what we all want is to participate in the act of creation a small way that reflects the act of creation going on at a grand scale.

当你将自己的全部倾注到创作中，而作品又能服务他人时，这种体验是令人惊叹的。

And to have that experience of in so doing by pouring oneself out into the thing, and then having the thing be of service to others, that's an amazing feeling.

刚开始很难，但一旦开始了，我不知道有谁，我从未遇到过任何一个人，有过这种体验后又退回去的。

And it's hard to get going, but once you do, I don't know anybody, I've never met anybody, that's had that experience and gone back.

一个都没有。

Not one.

因为我认为这是我们所有人都追求的东西，而你做这个节目也是在做同样的事。

And it's because I think it's the thing that we're all after, and that's what you're doing too with this show.

我认为我最想避免的一件事就是：找到了目标，开始行动，变得擅长，然后因为某些行为导致这一切戛然而止。

I think one of the biggest things I want to avoid is finding the thing, doing the thing, being great at the thing, and then something you do causes that to stop.

我痴迷于持久的成功。

Where I'm obsessed with the sustained success.

我不希望突然崩溃。

I don't want to have to flame out.

我宁愿十年如一日地稳步前进，不断进步，持续下去。

I'd rather just do the slow build decade after decade, get better, and keep doing it.

这就是为什么我本质上会读小说和传记。

This is why, essentially, I read fiction and I read biography.

这基本上就是我阅读的内容。

That's basically what I read.

传记部分就是，他们得到想要的东西之后，发生了什么？

The biography part is like, okay, what happens after they got what they wanted?

我最近进行的很多对话都是在镜头前进行的，但镜头之外，我总是会问，因为这些人大多年纪更大、更有经验，显然也更成功、更聪明等等。

And the conversations I've been having, a lot of these have been having on camera, but after off camera, I'm always asking because most of these people are older and more experienced and obviously more successful, smarter, and everything else.

我就只是问，我需要担心什么？

Just like, what do I have to worry about?

我忽略了什么可能导致我停止？

What am I not seeing that could cause me to stop?

我喜欢我正在做的事情。

I like what I'm doing.

我热爱它。

I love it.

我做了什么可能会让我无法继续做下去？

What am I doing that would cause it for me to not be able to do that?

这其中还有一些有趣的人性问题。

And there's interesting human questions about this.

陷阱在于

Well, the trap is

在你着手去寻找那些让你感到充满活力的事情之前，《奥义书》里有一句非常精彩的话，说的是‘持久的喜悦’，那种不会耗尽的喜悦。

before you do the work to figure out the thing that makes you feel alive, there's this great line in the the Upanishads that it's always referred to abiding joy, Like, joy that doesn't doesn't run out.

你不会像消耗其他资源那样把它用完。

You don't use it up like you use up so many resources.

你越是使用它，它反而越多。

As you use it, you get more of it.

这就是持久的喜悦。

That's abiding joy.

对大多数人来说，目标变成了金钱、权力和名声，因为这些是大家普遍认可的成功世俗象征，而且在某种程度上确实如此。

The target for most people becomes the traditional money power fame because those are worldly proxies for success that we all recognize, and are for sure, to some degree true.

如果没有某种程度上的成功，很难获得这三者中的任何一种。

It's hard to get a lot of those three things without being successful in some way.

我认为这些东西是巨大的陷阱，因为一旦你开始得到其中一样，你就开始追逐它，而这与追逐那种让你感到充满生命力的感觉、我们之前谈到的永不枯竭的持久喜悦是不同的。

I think those things are huge traps because they become once you start to get one, it's the thing you start chasing, and it's different than chasing the feeling of being alive, that abiding joy of feeling alive that we talked about earlier, which you'll never run out of.

它总会很好地指引你，永远如此。

That will always guide you well, always.

而金钱、权力和名声则不会。

And money, power, fame will not.

所以我认为你问题或担忧的答案就是：确保你追逐的是那种充满生命力的感觉以及相关的直觉，这样你就没问题了。

And so I think the answer to your question or your worry is just like, make sure you're chasing the feeling of being alive and the intuition around that, and you'll be fine.

当被吸走时，我当然也经历过，就像其他人一样。

And get it's when sucked, and I, of course, have, just like everybody else.

在我的人生各个阶段，我也曾被这三样东西迷住，因为它们确实令人着迷。

Like, I've been intoxicated by those three things at various points in my life, and that's because they're intoxicating.

当你第一次拥有大量其中一样东西时，那种感觉真的非常好。

It feels really good the first time you have a lot of one of those things.

你已经超越了费曼了。

You're over Feynlo.

你不喜欢它。

You don't like it.

是的，我不喜欢。

Yeah, I don't.

我真的希望我能做我正在做的事。

I I don't I think it is I wish I could do what I do.

你知道《黑衣人》里那种在你眼前闪一下的场景吗？

And you know that thing in Men in Black where they where they flash you in the face?

我希望在每一集结束时，都能让人眼前一闪，让他们忘记我是谁，不再认出我。

I wish, like, at the end of each of my episodes, flash people in the face, and they forgot who I was, and they didn't recognize me.

最近我一直在想这件事。

I've been thinking about this lately.

就像，如果你每天的时间是有限的，你会把时间花在哪里？

It's like, would I actually you have limited time that you're every day, like, where do I spend this?

无非三件事：健康、工作和人际关系。

And it's like three things: health, work, relationships.

我想不出还有其他我真正关心的事情了。

And I can't think of anything else that I care deeply about.

健康必须放在第一位，因为如果我们生病了或者没有精力，就什么都做不了。

Health has to come first because if we are sick or we have no energy, we can't do anything else.

但除此之外，如果你看看我是如何度过时间的，本质上我只是在创造一些我希望能让别人生活变得更好的作品，这正是我始终追求的持久喜悦。

But other than that, if you look at how I spend my time, it's essentially just like I'm creating work that I hope it makes somebody else's life better, that I truly am the abiding joy chasing that.

然后，我以一种令人惊讶的方式，非常重视与他人建立深厚的关系，而十年前的我并不是这样的。

And then I'm just deeply interested, in a shocking way, of having really strong relationships with other people, and I was not like that ten years ago.

我的经验其实是，我会不同意这个顺序。

My experience, actually, I would disagree with the order.

我曾经长期遭受严重的健康问题，但幸运的是，现在好了。

I had tremendously bad health problems for a long time, and I don't anymore, thankfully.

但我坚信，确切地说，原因是我终于把工作和人际关系理顺了，当你在做自己热爱的事情并且拥有稳固的核心关系时，你的健康会突然奇迹般地变好。

But I'm convinced, I'm certain, that the reason is that I finally got my work and my relationships correct, and that when you are doing something you love and have great core relationships, all of a sudden, magically, your health gets way better.

在我健康状况很差的那段时期，我吃得非常好，每天都锻炼，该做的我都做了。

And during that time when I had lots of health problems, I ate unbelievably well, I worked out every day, I did all I did everything you're supposed to do.

是的

Yeah.

而且还远不止这些。

And and then some.

我对此着迷至极。

I was crazy about it.

我每天都记录所有这些事情。

I kept daily logs of all this stuff.

几乎没有我没试过的方法。

Like, there's nothing I didn't try.

任何稀奇古怪的疗法，我都探索过。

There's no willy foo foo thing that I didn't I didn't explore.

我试过所有方法来解决这些问题，但都没能成功。

I tried everything to solve some of these problems, and I couldn't solve them.

有一段时间，我感到心灰意冷。

And at one point, I felt resigned.

我只是觉得，大概吧，我就是那种一生都会生病的人。

It's just like, I guess, like, I'm just one of those people that's going to be sick life.

这就是我人生的常态。

Like, that's just how it's gonna be for me.

当我终于开始做我认为自己人生该做的事，把所有时间都花在人身上，专注于人际关系时，我的健康突然就变好了，这不可能是巧合。

And it cannot be coincidence that when I finally started doing the thing that I think I was meant to do with my life, and spend all my time with the people, and focused on the relationships, that all of a sudden my health got better.

所以现在，我当然仍然在健康上投入很多。

So now, of course, I still invest a lot in my health.

我并不是在否定那三件关键的事。

I'm not arguing with the three key things.

但我发现这是人生中一段很有趣的经历。

But I found that an interesting experience in life.

身体会记住一切。

The body keeps the score.

名气这部分很有趣，因为这是你独特理解、而我能和你探讨的事情。

The fame part is interesting because this is something that, like, you uniquely understand, and I can talk to you about.

这并不是为了出名而出名。

It's like, it's not to be known for the sake of being known.

比如那些真人秀节目里的人，那真的很奇怪。

Like, these, like, reality TV show people, that that's weird.

我希望我的作品足够出色，以至于它自然而然地被人知晓、讨论和传播，因为人们从中发现了价值。

Like, I want my work to be so good that it can't help but become known and talked about and spread because they find value in it.

这不过是人性使然。

This is just human nature.

如果你从一首歌、一部电影、一本书或一个播客中获得了价值，没人会把它藏在心里。

If you find value in a song, a movie, a book, a podcast, no one keeps that to themselves.

餐馆也是这样，我们会忍不住告诉别人我们喜欢的东西。

Restaurant, are compelled to tell other people about the things that we like.

我想我会这样看待它，可能和你不同，当然你也可以告诉我我是不是错了——其实也不是错，而是因为你更容易被别人理解，从而能建立起各种关系。

What I would say is the reason I think I view it differently than you, and you could tell me if I'm wrong or whatever, it's just not even wrong, but it's the relationships that you get to build as a result of you being easy to understand to other people.

所以没人会偶然发现我的作品，然后想：这家伙到底对什么感兴趣？

So no one's going to stumble upon any of my work and be like, what is this guy actually interested in?

这非常清晰，很明显。

It's very Like, quite clear.

是的。

Yeah.

这很清楚，非常明显。

It's quite clear, very obvious.

然后如果你觉得有什么独特的见解的话。

And then if you think there's like some kind of like unique insight.

但我想表达的是，我觉得这归结为一个原则：我所研究过、交谈过或读过的那些人，为什么他们能在自己擅长的领域如此出色？

But my my my point being is it's like, I think this comes down to a principle of like, oh, like, why are peep all the people that I've studied either had conversation with or read about, it's like, why are they great at what they do?

我认为人生中最根本重要的事，就是选择身边围绕着谁。

And it has to do with I do think the most fundamentally important thing that you do in life is choose who's around you.

当然。

Of course.

比如你的朋友、你为之工作的上司。

Like your friends, people you work for.

你的公司就是你能招募并培养起来的那些人。

Your company is the people that you are able to recruit and to build.

所以，十年前我完全不关心与他人的关系，但现在我却在这一方面投入了大量精力。

And so what I couldn't understand is I was not interested at all in relationships with other people, I would say ten years ago, somewhere like there, where now it's like I invest a ton in that element.

我认为这是我工作中最让我兴奋的部分，它从未减弱过，而且长期以来一直是我最热衷的方面。

I think it's the part I'm very excited about my work that it's never diminished, but I think it's the part that I'm most excited about and have been for quite a while.

因为，当然了，在你临终时，你所想的会是这些，而不是你那五千个播客。

Well, because, of course, on your deathbed, that's what you're gonna be thinking about, not your 5,000 podcasts.

你不会躺在那里想着。

You're not gonna lie there and think.

但这让我感到惊讶，帕特里克。

But that's surprising to me, Patrick.

这就是为什么这本布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的书让我如此困扰。

Like, this is why I this freaking Bruce Springsteen book can't is, like, messing with me so much.

因为我看到他写这本书时已经七十岁了，实际上写的时候是六十六或六十七岁左右。

It's because I'm I'm seeing this he's 70 he's 66 when he writes it, 67, something like that.

现在他76岁了，我刚刚在另一个采访中听到他谈到这一点，书中前半部分描述的这个人，拥有你所见过最疯狂的工作 ethic。

Now he's, 76, and I heard just heard him on another interview talking about it, where the first half of the book is, this guy, like, has one of the most insane work ethics that you've ever, ever seen.

他把所有精力都投入到一件事上，从15岁起他就毫不怀疑这就是他一生要做的事。

And it's channeled into one thing, and he has no doubt since he was 15 that this is what he's going to do.

他意识到自己缺乏某些能力，或者没有发展出处理这些事情的技能——让我试着解释一下。

And he realizes that he does not have the skill set or he has all these things that he has not developed the skill set to handle I'm just gonna try to explain this.

我可能会专门录一整期播客来讲这个，希望这样能说得更清楚些。

I may just record a whole podcast about it, so maybe this will hopefully make sense.

让我惊讶的是，这个对职业成就、名声和明星光环有着病态执着的人，从小就坦率地表达过自己想要什么，而他确实得到了这一切，这点我稍后会讲到。

It was surprising to me that this man who is psychopathically obsessed with professional achievement and fame and stardom and all the stuff that he was very upfront about what he wanted from a young age, okay, He gets it, which I'll get to in a minute.

而他最终的领悟是：生活更重要。

And his final realization is life is more important.

工作只是生活的一部分。

Work is a part of life.

它并不是我的全部人生。

It is not my full life.

生活就是生活。

Life is life.

这很重要。

It is important.

他最大的挣扎在于他成名了。

And his biggest struggle was he becomes famous.

这是吉姆·伊文告诉我的，因为我见到了他。

This is what Jim Ivein told me, because I got to meet him.

就在我离开他家的时候，他说：‘你得去看看那部新的布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀电影。’

And right when I was leaving his house, he's like, You need to go watch the new Bruce Springsteen movie.

这部电影叫《救我脱离当下》。

And it's called Deliver Me From Nowhere.

我以为这会是一部关于他生平的传记片。

And I thought it was gonna be like a biography of his life.

但完全不是这么回事。

That's not what it's like at all.

这是一部黑暗的电影，我震惊了。

It is like a dark I was shocked, dark movie.

这是理解的关键。

This is the key to understanding.

他出生在一个难以置信的恶劣环境中。

Unbelievable, terrible environment born into.

你会看到那里有两件事会发生。

You're you're gonna there's gonna be two actions there.

你就会想，生活就是这样。

You're just like, this is what life is.

我要接受它，或者你就会有那种疯狂的改变一切的意志。

I'm gonna accept it, or you're going to have this maniacal will to change things.

他拥有那种疯狂的意志。

He has the maniacal will.

他想的是，我不想这样活着。

He's like, I don't want to live like that.

他父亲是他遇到过的最糟糕的人之一。

His dad was one the worst human beings to him.

他把所有的痛苦都转化为一种工作精神，最终得到了他想要的一切——如今人人都知道他是谁。

He takes all that pain, channels it into a work ethic that gets him exactly what he wanted, gets what he wants, which is now everybody knows who he is.

他享誉全球，富有非凡，但就在三十多岁的时候，突然陷入人生中最深重的抑郁之中。

He's worldwide famous, he's rich, everything, and then immediately drops in his mid thirties until the deepest depression of his life.

他意识到，这并不是我真正想要的。

And what he realizes is that's not what I actually wanted.

这就是人们常说的。

This is what goes by.

我想我之前在楼上跟你说过，也许我还提到过这一点。

I think I told you this upstairs, maybe I even mentioned this.

昨晚晚餐时，我进行了一次非常有趣的对话，话题始于：你正在对自己撒什么谎？

Had a very interesting conversation at dinner last night, and it started with what is the lie that you're telling yourself?

我和另一个人围绕这个问题讨论了很久，非常引人入胜。

And me and another person going around that for quite a while, It was very fascinating.

布鲁斯对自己撒的谎是，工作最重要，成为摇滚明星最重要，名气最重要。

And the lie that Bruce was telling himself was that work was the most important, that becoming a rock star was the most important, fame was the most important.

他意识到，他的父母严重损害了他的情感健康。

And what he realizes that his parents had so messed up his emotional well-being.

他无法去做自己真正想要的事情。

He was incapable of doing the thing that he wanted.

在他看来，他极度渴望拥有孩子、结婚，打破我们前面提到的循环——我的孩子不会经历我所经历的一切。

In his case, he wanted, desperately wanted to have kids, to be married, to break the chain, like we mentioned earlier, of my kids will not experience what he experienced.

他甚至写了一整张专辑，幻想这一切，但在实现之前就搁置了。

And he was even writing he has a whole album fantasizing about this before he's able to do it.

而他遇到的，始终是同样的问题：这简直是一种疯狂的反差——他在舞台上面对四万名观众，所有人都爱他，但他在书中多次谈到与女性的关系。

And what he would run into, the same thing, where, like, he it's it's gotta be such a crazy juxtaposition of, like, he's on stage in front of 40,000 people, they all love him, and yet, in his case, he talks a lot about women in the book.

他接近一位女性。

He would get close to a woman.

他对她产生了某种感情。

He'd have some kind of feelings for her.

她也会对他产生感情。

She'd have feelings for him back.

明白吗？

Okay?

然后他立刻会问：你为什么爱我？

Then he immediately goes, Why do you love me?

我太糟糕了，不值得被爱。

I am so fucked up and undeserving.

你爱我这件事本身就说明你有问题，而我会伤害你，因为你爱我。

So the fact that you love me means there's something wrong with you, and I'm going to hurt you because you love me.

然后他就逃跑了。

And then he'd run away.

接着他又进入另一段关系。

And then he'd get into another relationship.

他一遍又一遍地重复着这个循环。

And he'd go over and over and over again.

他并没有意识到，自己抑郁的根源在于他不知道自己真正想要什么，也没有相应的技能。

And he didn't realize the source of his depression was he didn't know what he actually wanted, and he didn't have the skill set.

然后他遇到了那个女人。

And then he winds up meeting the woman.

顺便说一下，他当时已经结婚了。

He's married, by the way.

他遇到了乐队里另一位女性，后来因为意识到‘这个人是我愿意付出努力去修复关系的人’而选择离婚，这简直太疯狂了。

He winds up meeting another woman who's in his band and getting divorced because he realizes, like, this is the person that can like, I'm willing to do the work necessary to fix, which is like a crazy thing.

接着他接受了二十五年的心理治疗，有时还不得不服用抗抑郁药物。

Then he goes through twenty five years of therapy, and in cases, he has to get on antidepressants.

从35岁到67岁写书期间，他对自己人生经历的描述极其坦诚。

He's unbelievably honest from what took place in his life from 35 until 67 when he's writing his book.

所以我认为，这其中蕴含着各种关于个人生活的教训——你真正想要的是什么？

And so I think there's all kinds of lessons in there from personal, what do you actually want in your personal life?

你想要怎样的朋友关系、浪漫关系，无论哪种情况都是如此。

The kind of relationships you want with friends, romantic partners, whatever the case is.

但这就是我想说的，我要确保培养出的技能不只是为了停留在原地，你已经无数次推动我朝这个方向走了。

But this is what I meant about, I wanna make sure I develop the skill set not just to stay where I am, and you've pushed me in this direction a million times.

你总是说：别什么事都自己干。

You're like, stop doing everything yourself.

我们有过无数次这样的对话。

We have a million conversations.

你总是问：你为什么没有一个团队？

You're just like, why don't you have a team?

你为什么不做这些事？

Why don't you do all this?

我之所以没有团队，原因很清楚——我根本不信任任何人。

It's like, it makes sense why I don't have a team because I don't fucking trust anybody.

这很明显为什么会有这种情况。

That's obvious why that is.

我觉得我在处理我们讨论的那些事情上，正变得越来越好。

I do think I'm getting better and better and better to even with stuff me and you talk about.

十年前，我根本不可能说出这样的话。

Ten years ago, there's zero chance I would have let that come out of my mouth.

一点都没有。

Zero.

我是说，你讲的是布鲁斯的故事，但我觉得你在很大程度上说的就是你自己。

I mean, you tell Bruce's story, but I think you're talking about yourself to a large degree.

我知道。

I know.

也许我朝着更有服务意识的目标迈进的过程中，我远非完美。

And maybe my arrival at the aspiration, I'm by no means perfect, to be more service oriented.

我刚去世的祖母，她99岁，总是教训我。

My grandmother, who just passed away, she was 99, banged on me.

每次她见到我，这都会是谈话的主题。

Every time she'd see me, this would be the topic of conversation.

她总是说，是啊是啊是啊，恭喜你取得了所有成就。

She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations on all the success.

谁在乎啊？

Like, who gives a shit?

你为别人做了什么？

Like, what are you doing for other people?

这才是我想知道的。

That's what I want to know.

我坚信，出路就在于他人——我相信，就像你，就像许多听众一样，我们都有一堆内心的挣扎，而走出困境的方法就是关注他人。

And I'm convinced that's the way out, that I think I, like you, and like so many listening, have their set of demons that they've struggled with, and the path out is others.

就这么简单。

Simple as that.

听起来像布鲁斯，我不知道，布鲁斯。

And it sounds like Bruce I don't know, Bruce.

我不是个狂热的斯普林斯汀粉丝。

I'm not a huge Springsteen fan.

我很想读，我当然得看看这本书。

I'd love to I need to read the book, obviously.

但这听起来像是一个古老的故事。

But that seems like a tale as old as time.

但这一点

But this

这是我从你那里学到的：确保你的动力、能量和抱负来自积极的源泉，而不是消极的。

is something I learned from you, this idea of making sure that your source of fuel and energy and ambition is generative and not negative.

而且我认为，我和你、还有萨姆·亨克的对话真的很重要。

And I do think, like, the conversation I've had with you, with Sam Henke, it's really important.

我正逐渐达到一种状态：我逼迫自己，是因为我热爱它。

It's like, I'm getting to the point where I push myself because I love it.

我对自己比以往任何时候都更友善了，因为我意识到：这不再对我有益。

I'm way nicer to myself than I have ever been because I'm like, Oh, this doesn't serve me anymore.

我不再想：我会成功，因为我热爱它。

Like, I'm not going like, I the I will be successful because I love it.

只要我热爱它，我就会一直去做。

And if I love it, I'll do it all the time.

如果我一直做，我就会变得非常擅长。

And if I do it all the I'll get really good at it.

而且如果我变得非常擅长，金钱自然会随之而来，因为这是一种...

And and if I get really good at it, money will come as a result because it's an act of

服务。

service.

是的。

Yeah.

清洁能源与污染能源的争论非常有趣。

The clean the clean fuel, dirty fuel debate is really interesting.

你看，你读过的大多数书，其作者都是被污染性动力驱动的。

And look, a lot of many, most, nearly all of the books that you've read were people that were fueled by dirty fuel.

污染性动力确实很有效，但它会消耗一个人，而我宁愿默默无闻、一无所成地死去，也不愿那样活着；我宁愿拥有那些可以依赖我、信任我、我始终忠诚的人。

Dirty fuel works really well, but it consumes the person in a way that I would far rather die, you know, nobody knowing who I am with no worldly, you know, success, but having people that could count on me, rely on me, I was faithful to, that I was loyal to.

那就是我最终想要的。

Like, that's what I want at the end.

所以，如果你能从这一点倒推回去，这是另一种很酷的思考方式。

So if you can work backwards from that, that's another cool way to think about it.

比如，从你希望为真的事情倒推，是一种简单而有效的启发式方法，用来找到该做什么。

Like, working backwards from what you hope is true is a simple heuristic for for finding what to do well.

而且我觉得，是的，我迫不及待想读这本书。

And I think, yeah, I think I can't wait to read the book.

这就是为什么我认为，不管是一起读很多书还是不同时读，但能从大量素材中汲取养分很重要。我现在正在读布鲁斯·弗伦斯坦的书，但接着你会发现，另一个拥有超级英雄般工作伦理、动力和抱负的人是林登·约翰逊，罗伯特·卡罗对此有精彩的描述。

This is why I think, you know, reading a bunch at the same time or not at same time, but, like, having a lot to to pull from is, like, I'm reading the Bruce Frenstein book, but then you realize, like, another person with, like, superhero work ethic and drive and ambition was the LBJ, which Robert Caro brilliantly writes about.

你会意识到，布鲁斯是具有创造力的。

And you realize Bruce is is generative.

他花了一段时间才想明白，但他最终走到了那一步，而林登·约翰逊却从未做到。

It took him a while to figure it out, but, like, he got on the other side of that where LBJ never did.

尽管他们的动力来源非常相似，比如罗伯特·卡罗在书中讲过一个精彩的故事，说的是林登·约翰逊终于来到了华盛顿。

And even though their source is very similar like, there's a great story Robert Caro tells in one of his books where, like, know, LBJ finally gets to Washington.

我想他当时像个实习生。

I think he's like an intern.

我都想不起来他当时做什么工作了。

I don't even remember what the job he has.

他身无分文。

He has no money.

天气很冷。

It's cold.

太阳大约在早上5:30升起，和他一起工作的那位女士总看到他到处奔跑。

And it'd be like sun would be coming up at, like, 05:30, and this woman that worked with him would always see him, like, running everywhere.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们只是以为，哦，他没外套，也没钱，所以跑步是为了取暖。

They just assumed, oh, he's got no coat, he got no money, he's running to warm himself up.

夏天来了，他还是在跑步。

Then the summer comes, and he's still running.

显然，罗伯特·卡罗是运用语言和讲故事的高手，他的核心观点当然是：他跑步是有原因的。

Obviously, Robert Carter was a master with words and storytelling, and his whole point was, of course he was running.

他最终实现了那个目标，因为他从三年级就开始说，自己想当总统。

He, like, finally made it to the spot because he was talking about, well, he wanted to be president since, like, third grade or something.

他终于来到了这座城市，来到了所有梦想汇聚的地方，准备去追逐自己的梦想。

He's like, he finally made it to the city, to the spot of where all his dreams are, and, like, he was going to run after his dreams.

这两个故事之间有太多东西了。

There's so much in between these two stories.

一个人是摇滚巨星，另一个人成了美国总统。

One guy's a rock star, one guy comes to president of The United States.

但本质上是一回事。

And it's the same thing.

一个是富有创造力的，另一个则极其操纵人心，大概不是你愿意身边有这样的人。

One is generative, one is unbelievably manipulative and probably not a guy that you'd want in your life to be around.

所以我认为，从优秀榜样身上学习的同时，也要意识到：我不想像那样。

So I think also learning from great examples, but almost seeing, oh, I don't want to be that way.

我们友谊中最棒的一点就是，我确实希望向他人敞开心扉。

This is something one of the best things about our friendship is I actually want to let people in.

我想拥有

I want to have

当然。

Of course.

朋友和真正深厚的朋友。

Friends and deep friends.

过去，这对我来说并不是重要的事。

And in the past, that wasn't an important thing to me.

同意。

Agreed.

这场对话现在成了大卫的心理治疗。

This conversation is now therapy for David.

但这就是我想说的重点。

But this is my point.

当我想要坐下来和你聊聊时，有很多事情我想谈，但我也想聊聊我们平时常聊的那些内容。

Was when I wanted to sit down with you, there's bunch of things I wanna talk about, but it's like I also wanna like, talk about the stuff that, like, we normally talk about.