Tax Alpha with Raul Shah: Backdoor Roth, Mega Backdoor Roth

欢迎回到《Tax Alpha》的另一期节目，我是Raul Shah，Doc Shah Financial的创始人。这是一家价值投资公司，专注于帮助普通投资者和退休人员最大化投资组合增长，同时通过先进的税务规划保护他们的财富免受高额税收的影响。

Welcome back to another episode of Tax Alpha with Raul Shah, founder of Doc Shah Financial, a value investing firm that is focused on helping everyday investors and retirees maximize their portfolio growth while protecting their wealth from heavy taxation through advanced tax planning.

该公司自2023年成立以来，已为客户创造了近39%的年化股权回报率，具体为38.9%。

It's been around since 2023 and has since generated nearly 39% annualized equity return for its clients at 38.9.

除了在市场上的工作，Rhett Will还是约翰霍普金斯大学的教育工作者，在那里他为社区教授税务规划课程。

In addition to his work in the markets, Rhett Will is also an educator at Johns Hopkins University where he teaches a tax planning course for that community.

Rhett Will，欢迎回到节目。

Rhett Will, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来到《投资专家》和Seeking Alpha。

It's great to have you on Investing Experts and Seeking Alpha.

Rayna，非常感谢你再次邀请我。

Rayna, thanks so much for having me back.

这已经是我们的第三期节目了。

This is now our third episode.

你相信吗？

Can you believe that?

我觉得时间过得真快，而且播客的反响好得让人难以置信。

I feel like time's flying, and the reception to the podcast has been unbelievable.

你知道，人们渴望真正的金融知识、实用的财务和税务规划建议，我已经准备好持续输出，帮助Seeking Alpha社区。

You know, people are hungry for real financial knowledge, practical financial and tax planning tips, and I'm so ready to deliver and keep delivering and help this Seeking Alpha community.

顺便说一句，这对我来说太棒了。

That's been wonderful to me, by the way.

我的意思是，你知道，我从2018年开始就是撰稿人，每次我们做这些播客，我都会收到大量的邮件，人们说，哦，我从来没想过这个，或者就是打个招呼。

I mean, you know, I've been a contributor since 2018, and every time we do these podcasts, I get a swarm of emails, people saying, oh, I never thought about that, just reaching out to say hi.

甚至还有客户是通过播客来的。

I've even had clients come from the podcast.

所以这是一段美好的结合，而且这是最敏锐的投资听众。

So it's been a wonderful matrimony, and this is the sharpest investing audience out there.

你骗不了他们。

You can't fool them.

所以我很期待今天的话题。

So I'm excited to get in to today's topic.

我们的投资者社区，以及那些深思熟虑的回应和问题，我认为是Seeking Alpha最好的特质之一，如果不是最好的话。

Our community of investors and thoughtful responses and thoughtful questions, think, is one of our best qualities at Seeking Alpha, if not our best quality.

非常感谢你成为这个社区的一员。

So appreciate you being part of that community.

感谢所有来信的人。

Appreciate all the people that have written in.

回顾一下，我们已经讨论过资产配置和罗斯转换。

For a refresher, we have had already a conversation about asset location and Roth conversions.

现在是我们的第三集，Rhett，你来介绍并直接进入正题吧。

And now for our third episode, Rhett, well, I will let you introduce and get right into it.

好的。

All right.

今天我们要讲的是后门罗斯和超级后门罗斯。

We have got the Backdoor Roth and the Mega Backdoor Roth today.

这两种策略是高收入者最强大的税务规划工具之一。

These are two of the most powerful tax planning strategies for high earners.

我把高收入者加了引号，因为这些策略适用于很多处于24%税率档的人，我马上会讲到具体数字。

And I put high earners in quotes because these strategies apply to a lot of people who are around the 24% tax bracket, and I'll get into the numbers in just a second.

所以这个策略实际上是为了绕过国税局设定的罗斯IRA收入限额。

So this is a strategy to actually bypass the Roth IRA limits that the, or the Roth IRA income limits that the IRS has imposed.

这是一个很好的策略，可以分散你的税基，并且能够向罗斯IRA供款，而通常情况下你的收入是不允许你这样做的。

And so it's a wonderful strategy to be able to diversify your tax base, and be able to contribute funds to a Roth IRA, when normally your income would prohibit you from doing so.

我经常和客户使用这个策略。

I use this strategy with clients all the time.

再说一遍，我们会讲Backdoor和Mega Backdoor Roth。

Again, we're gonna cover the Backdoor and the Mega Backdoor Roth.

但首先，我想先讲一个我认为对理解这些税务规划策略至关重要的点。

But first, I do want to get into something that I think is crucial to understanding how these tax planning strategies work.

首先，我们得理解三种不同类型的账户桶，可以这么说，而且每个桶的征税方式都不同。

So, the first thing is we have to understand the three different types of account buckets, shall we say, And each of these buckets is taxed differently.

第一种桶，我们称之为延税桶。

So, bucket number one is what we call your tax deferred bucket.

比如传统IRA、401k、403b、457 TSP计划这些。

So, those are things like your traditional IRA, your four zero one ks, your four zero three, four fifty seven TSP plan.

延税账户非常特别。

The tax deferred accounts are very unique.

你往这些账户里存钱，今天就能抵税，等到退休取出来的时候，再按普通收入税率交税。

You put money into those accounts, and you get a tax deduction today, and then you ultimately pay tax when you pull that money out in retirement at your ordinary income rate.

这是第一种账户。

So, that's bucket one.

第二种是券商账户，也叫应税账户。

Now, bucket two, we have the brokerage account or the taxable account.

券商账户呢，有点像边赚边交税。

Now, in the brokerage account, it's sort of a pay tax as you go account.

每年你实现的资本利得，不管是短期还是长期，利息，合格或非合格股息，都要当年交税。

So, every year that you realize capital gains, short term or long term, interest, qualified or non qualified, or dividends, or excuse me, qualified or non qualified dividends, or interest, you're gonna pay tax in that year.

如果你持有资产超过一年，就能享受长期资本利得税率，这个税率很优惠。

And if you've held an asset for longer than a year, you get long term capital gains tax treatment, which is very favorable.

然后第三个桶，就是你的免税账户。

And then on the third bucket, we've got your tax free accounts.

比如你的罗斯IRA账户、你的HSA、你的罗斯403、你的罗斯401。

So like your Roth IRA account, your HSA, your Roth four zero three, your Roth four zero one.

所有这些账户，你存钱进去的时候要交税，但账户里的任何收益或任何操作都不用交税。

All of these accounts, you pay tax when you put money into the account, but you don't pay any tax on any of the gains or anything that goes on in that account.

你取出来的每一分钱都是免税的，只要你遵守几条国税局的规定，就是你超过59.5岁，并且账户开立并注资超过五年。

Every dollar you pull out is gonna be tax free, as long as you follow a couple IRS rules, which is you're over 59.5, and you've had the account open and funded for longer than five years.

所以，这就是三个桶。

So, those are the three buckets.

当你退休时，这适用于所有人，无论你是在听，你是二十岁、三十岁、四十岁、五十岁、六十岁，都没关系。

And when you go into retirement, and this applies to everybody, whether you're listening and you're twenty, thirty, 40, 50, 60, doesn't matter.

最终，在某个时候，你都会退休，你不想只把你所有的钱都放在税前账户里，这是大多数听众可能有的情况，也是大多数人普遍有的情况。

Ultimately, at some point, you're gonna become retired, and you don't want to only have all of your money in your pre tax bucket, which is what most people listening probably have, is what most people in general have.

对吧？

Right?

很多人把401K或403B存满，然后就这样了。

People, they max out their 401Ks or their 403Bs, and that's kind of what they call it a day.

但问题在于，你把所有税收的鸡蛋都放在一个篮子里，因为你赌的是退休时的税率会比现在低，对吧？

Now, the problem with that is that you're putting all of your tax eggs in one basket, is what we say, because you are betting that your tax rate in retirement is going to be lower than your tax rate today, right?

这就是为什么这么做有优势。

That's why it's advantageous.

你把钱放进403B，延迟纳税，假设你是高收入者，税率是32%，退休时税率是24%，那你就赚了8%的差价，或者说每取出一美元就省了8%。

You're putting money in the four zero three, you're deferring tax, let's say at the 32% bracket if you're a high earner, and then when you're in retirement, if you're in the 24% bracket, well, now you've arbitrage 8% or saved 8% on every dollar now that you pull out.

但问题是你不知道未来税率会怎样，对吧？

But the problem with this is that you don't know, right?

没人知道未来的税率会是多少。

Nobody knows what future tax rates are gonna be.

未来税率可能会更高。

They could be higher in the future.

也可能会更低。

They could be lower in the future.

我们就是不知道。

We just don't know.

所以为了对冲这个风险，最好把你的各个账户都存一些钱。

And so in order to hedge ourselves against that risk, it's really beneficial to have all of your accounts funded to some degree.

所以高收入者通常因为收入太高没法直接存罗斯，但通过这个策略他们就能做到了。

And so high earners who typically can't get to the Roth because of their income, they're gonna be able to get to this with that strategy.

我们来聊聊“后门罗斯”吧，好吗？

Let's talk about the Backdoor Roth, okay?

基本上，我们要做的是向传统个人退休账户存入一笔不可抵扣的供款，也就是税后供款。

Essentially, what we're going to do is make a non deductible contribution, or an after tax contribution to our traditional IRA account.

然后，我们可以把这笔钱转换或转移到罗斯个人退休账户。

And when we do so, what we can then do is actually convert it or transfer it to the Roth IRA.

这就是“后门罗斯”的简单说法，对吧？

And that's the Backdoor Roth in a nutshell, right?

如果你因为收入太高不能直接存罗斯，就可以用“后门”的方式。

If you can't contribute directly to the Roth, you can use the Backdoor if your income is too high.

我们刚才提到了那些收入限制。

So we talked about those income limits.

具体的数字是多少呢？

What's the actual specific number?

嗯，2026年，如果你是单身，调整后总收入达到153,000美元，就开始逐步失去罗斯IRA的缴款资格。如果你是已婚并联合申报，我记得是242,000美元开始逐步失去资格。

Well, in 2026, if you are single at $153,000 of your modified adjusted gross income, you start to get phased out of making Roth IRA contributions, If you're listing and you're married filing jointly, it's 242,000, I believe, is when you start getting phased out.

这些数字每年都会变。

The numbers change every year.

具体数字不是那么重要。

That's not that important.

但概念非常重要。

The concept, though, is very important.

如果你的收入超过那个数字，基本上你要做的就是向传统的401(k)做税后缴款，然后转到罗斯账户，这样你就把钱放进了罗斯IRA。

If you're making above that number, essentially what you want to do is make an after tax contribution to that traditional four zero one ks, move it to the Roth, and now you've put money on your Roth IRA.

你可以像平常一样缴满额度。

You can max it out like normal.

所以如果你50岁，你可以直接存7500美元。

So if you're 50, you can put $7,500 in just like that.

如果你50岁，那就是8600美元，因为你有1100美元的补缴额度，这就是所谓的“后门罗斯”。

If you're 50, it's $8,600 because you get that $1,100 catch up contribution, and that's the Backdoor Roth.

接下来，我们马上会讨论这个策略的细节和陷阱，但基本思路就是这样。

Now, we're gonna talk about the nuances and traps with this in just a second, but that's the idea.

至于“超级后门罗斯”，把我刚才说的，把传统IRA换成403(b)或401(k)。

Now, as for the Mega Backdoor Roth, take what I just told you, take out traditional IRA and substitute four zero three or four zero one.

你把税后资金从401(k)转到罗斯IRA。

You're moving after tax money from a four zero one to your Roth IRA.

所以区别就在于资金来源不同。

So it's just a discrepancy between where the funds are originating from.

那为什么叫“超级”呢？

Now, why is it called Mega?

因为在401(k)里，你可以存远超7500美元，对吧？

Well, in a four zero one ks, you can pack in way more than $7,500 right?

2026年的限额是72000美元。

The limit is 72,000 in 2026.

所以，如果你愿意，你可以存入72000美元的税后供款，然后把所有这些转到罗斯IRA。

So, you could put in $72,000 of after tax contributions if you wanted to, and move all of that to a Roth IRA.

另外，从技术上讲，你也可以用税后资金把传统IRA存满，转到罗斯IRA，这样你就能把超过8万美元的税后资金放进你的罗斯IRA。

Plus, technically, you could also max out your traditional IRA with after tax funds, move it to a Roth, and you could put in over 80 ks in after tax money to your Roth.

所以，这就是这个概念的大致内容。

So, that is the concept in a nutshell.

我们在这里要做的是，通过使用后门罗斯和超级后门罗斯，绕过那些阻止你向罗斯IRA存钱的IRS收入限制。

What we're trying to do here, is we're trying to bypass those IRS income limits that are preventing you from putting money into your Roth IRA by using the Backdoor Roth and the Mega Backdoor Roth.

再说一次，这里面有细微差别，也有陷阱，但这就是大致的想法，如果你明白的话。

Again, there's nuances to this, there's traps to this, but that's the general idea, if that makes sense.

你能给我们讲一个你认为最有启发性的细微差别吗？或者也许最近有客户来找你，你用了这个方法，这可能会帮助听众和观众了解什么时候该用这个方法，以及可能需要三思什么？

Would you walk us through one of the most illustrative nuances that you could think of, or maybe a recent client that came in that you used this, that might help show listeners, viewers kind of when to put this into play and what maybe to think about twice?

是的，问得好。

Yeah, fantastic question.

那我们就把整个过程走一遍吧。

So let's just walk through the whole process.

假设有个人叫ABC，来到Doc Shop Financial，说，嘿，我有这笔钱。

Let's say that person ABC comes to Doc Shop Financial, and they say, Hey, I've got this money.

这是我的收入。

This is my income.

我没法往罗斯IRA里存钱。

I can't contribute to a Roth.

那怎么做后门罗斯IRA呢？

How do you do a Backdoor Roth?

好的，第一个要注意的点是，你的传统IRA、简易IRA或SEP IRA里不能有任何税前资金，也就是未缴税的钱。

Okay, the first nuance is you do not want to have any pre tax money, meaning untaxed money, in your traditional IRA, your simple IRA, or your SEP IRA.

你所有的IRA余额，也就是传统的税前IRA余额，都必须清空税前资金。

All of your IRA balances, your traditional pre tax IRA balances, they have to be cleared of pre tax funds.

这是为什么呢？

Why is this?

如果不是这样，你就会触发所谓的IRS比例规则。

Well, if it's not the case, you're gonna trigger what's called the IRS pro rata rule.

比如说，你想把7500美元的税后资金存入传统IRA，但你的账户里已经有7500美元的税前资金了。

So let's say that you go to put in $7,500 in after tax money to your traditional IRA, but you've already got $7,500 of pre tax money in that account.

如果你去尝试做真正的后门Roth，也就是把那7500美元的缴款转到你的Roth IRA，因为这笔资金池是分开的，一半是未征税的，一半是已征税的，那么你的后门Roth的50%，我在这里加个引号，现在就要被征税了。

If you go and you try to do the actual Backdoor Roth, which is move that $7,500 contribution to your Roth IRA, because that pool of money is split, half of it's untaxed, half of it's taxed, 50% of your Backdoor Roth, I'm putting my quotes up here, is now going to be taxable.

所以你就违背了初衷，因为你不仅为存入该账户的钱交了税，现在还要为那笔缴款的一半再交一次税才能转到Roth。

So you've defeated the purpose, because not only did you pay tax to put money into that account, but now you're paying tax again on half of that contribution to move it to the Roth.

所以你不希望触发比例规则。

So you don't wanna trigger the pro rata rule.

如果你的IRA里有税前资金，你必须把它们转到你的401(k)里，做后门Roth，然后再把那些税前资金转回来。

If you've got pre tax funds in your IRA, you have to move them to your four zero one, do the Backdoor Roth, and then you can bring those Pre Tax funds back in.

但这引出了第二个细微之处，那就是你不能在同一年内把那些税前资金转回来。

But that leads me to the second nuance, which is you can't bring those Pre Tax funds back in until the year is up.

很多人会这样做：他们在年初做后门Roth，然后把税前资金转入他们的账户。

A lot of people, what they'll do is they would do a Backdoor Roth at the start of the year, and then they bring in pre tax funds into their account.

可能是转存IRA，或者他们忘了，结果不小心把税前资金放进了账户。

Maybe it's a rollover IRA, or they forget, and they somehow put pre tax money into their accounts.

那就会追溯触发按比例分配规则。

Well, then that's going to trigger the pro rata rule retroactively.

所以你在实际操作这些后门罗斯时，必须非常注意时机。

So you have to be very careful with the timing of when you actually facilitate these Backdoor Roths.

第三个陷阱是，人们会把税后资金存入传统IRA，进行投资，然后过一段时间才转到罗斯IRA，这时投资组合可能已经增值了，结果就产生了税前收益，这会打乱你的后门罗斯，让一部分变成应税的。

And the third trap that people fall into is that they'll put after tax money in their traditional IRA, they'll invest it, and then they won't convert it to the Roth IRA until later on, and the portfolio might've gone up, and now what you've done is you've introduced pre tax gains that's gonna throw off your Backdoor Roth, and it's gonna make part of it taxable.

所以最干净的做法是，你所有的IRA余额，包括传统的税前IRA余额，都必须清零，没有任何税前资金。

So the cleanest setup to do this, all of your IRA balances, your traditional pre tax IRA balances, have to be zero, cleared out of any pre tax funds.

你做了税后供款，然后转到罗斯，接着需要向IRS提交8606表格，或者至少让你的会计师做，因为这个表格是告诉IRS不要对这次转换征税的。

You make your after tax contribution, you then transfer to the Roth, and then you have to file Form 8,606 with the IRS, or at least your accountant does, because that's the form that tells the IRS not to tax that conversion.

否则，你就会被双重征税。

Otherwise, you'll get double taxed on this.

我有个客户来咨询，他们带来了一个相当大的投资组合。

I had a client came in, you know, they brought over a pretty great sized portfolio.

他们收入很高，但没有提交8606表格。

They have a lot of income, and they didn't file Form 8,606.

所以，他们去年做Backdoor Roth时，那笔钱被征了两次税。

So, the last year that they did their Backdoor Roth, they got taxed twice on that money.

所以，这一点绝对不能忘。

So, you can't ever forget that.

所以，这是一个很大的细节，但就是这样。

So, it's a very big nuance, but that's the way.

这就是干净的设置。

That's the clean setup.

确保那些IRA里没有税前资金。

Make sure there's no pre tax funds in those IRAs.

做Backdoor Roth。

Do the Backdoor Roth.

提交8606表格，一般来说，这就是它的运作方式。

File Form 8,606, and that's, in general, how that's gonna work.

我有一个可能很基础的问题，对你来说可能一半是轻而易举，一半是几乎无法真正回答，因为这有点关乎人性。

I have a really, maybe, basic question that may be half layup to you, half kind of impossible to truly answer because it's just kind of human nature.

但你提到了有人没填对表格，也没有请会计师来帮忙处理。

But you mentioned that notion of somebody not filing the right form and not utilizing an accountant to do it for them.

你觉得人们在考虑聘请会计师时，应该思考哪些有帮助或有指导意义的事情？

What would you say is helpful or instructive for people to be thinking about when taking on an accountant?

因为我听几个人说过，表格没填对，或者搞砸了，或者这个人到了这个账户时，没意识到上一个会计师已经帮他们处理了。

Because I've heard that from a few people that the right form wasn't filed or they messed this up or this person, when they got to this account, didn't realize that the last accountant did this for them.

你觉得呢？

Would you say?

我说一半是轻而易举，是因为我知道这确实是你的业务。

I say halfway up because I know this is literally your business.

但还有，人们在找会计师时应该注意什么？

But also, what can people keep in mind when looking at accountants?

当然。

Sure.

你知道，我常说，像Doc Shah Financial这样的财富管理公司和会计师之间真正的根本区别在于，顺便说一句，我认为两者都需要，但好的财富管理公司会在税务规划上主动出击。

You know, I always say that the real fundamental difference between what a wealth management company like Doc Shah Financial does versus what an accountant does, and by the way, need both, in my opinion, but wealth management, good wealth management, is proactive about your tax planning.

所以，他们会预估你所有需要缴纳的税款，然后和你一起努力降低那个数字，避免犯一些不明智的错误。

So, they're looking and projecting out all the taxes that they expect you to pay, and then they're working with you on trying to mitigate that number, and not make unsensible mistakes.

而报税，也就是会计师做的事情，总是事后进行的，对吧？

Tax filing, which is what accountants do, is always retroactively, right?

会计师只是拿你给他们的材料，然后帮你报税。

The accountants are taking what you're giving them, and then they are filing your taxes.

他们不会坐下来和你主动探讨税务策略，帮你规划一生的税务负担。

They are not sitting down with you to proactively figure out tax strategies to help you pay tax over your lifetime.

那不是他们的工作，对吧？

That's not their job, right?

这不是会计师的错。

It's not a fault of the account.

只是，那不是他们做的事情。

It's just, it's not what they do.

他们负责报税，但不会像财富管理师那样坐下来和你一起做税务规划。

They file the taxes, but they don't sit down and work with you on tax planning like a wealth manager does.

所以，一般来说，如果你在做高级税务规划策略，比如我们为客户做的那些，无论是罗斯转换、资产配置还是后门罗斯，你都需要一个好的会计师。

So, in general, if you're doing advanced tax planning strategies, like what we do with clients, whether it's Roth Conversions or asset location or Backdoor Roths, you want a good accountant.

你需要一个至少熟悉这些的会计师。

You want an accountant that's at least familiar with that.

所以，直接发邮件。

And so, just email.

你问会计师问题。

You ask the accountant questions.

你说，嘿，你知道，这些是我正在考虑做的事情。

You say, hey, you know, these are some of the things that I'm thinking about doing.

你熟悉这些策略吗？

Are you familiar with these strategies?

至少知道怎么正确申报。

And at least how to file them correctly.

对于客户，我每年三月都会给他们发一封邮件。

And for clients, what I do is every March, I actually send them an email.

这封邮件叫做税务邮件。

It's called their tax email.

里面包含了他们账户中所有已完成的税务规划操作。

It has all the tax planning moves that have been done in their account.

还有所有的表格。

It has all of the forms.

所以，如果他们需要8606表或者1099表、1099R表，所有东西都打包在这封邮件里。

So, you know, if they need, you know, 8,606 or the 1099s, the 1099Rs, everything is packaged in that one email.

他们只需把它发给会计，会计就知道该怎么处理。

They just send it to their accountant, so their accountant knows exactly what to do.

有时候，我甚至会代表客户与会计合作。

And in some cases, I'll even collaborate with the accountant on behalf of the client.

所以总有办法把事情做对，但关键是要多沟通，确保你和会计达成共识。

So there's ways to get it done correctly, but it's really just communicating and making sure that you and the accountant are on the same page.

比如说那些还在职业生涯早期、还在积累财富的人，他们仍然有巨大的机会进行税务规划。

People who are, let's say earlier on in their career, that are still building their wealth, they still have tremendous opportunity to do tax planning.

事实上，你越年轻，关键不一定是你有多少钱，而是你的年龄。

In fact, the younger you are, it's not really necessarily about how much money you have, it's about your age.

越年轻，税务规划的效果就越好，对吧？

The younger you are, the more effective tax planning is, right?

我总是告诉人们，退休规划从25岁开始，也就是你研究生毕业或实习后开始第一份工作的那一天。

I always tell people retirement planning starts when you're 25, the day you take your first job after grad school or internship or whatever.

而且你拥有的时间越长，你的情况就会越好。

And the longer that you have, the better off that you will be.

所以，和一位让你感到自在的会计师合作总是很好的，你可以放心地把那些策略交给他，并且知道他们会正确填写表格，一切都会井井有条。

And so, it's always great to work with an accountant where you are comfortable bringing those strategies to them, and you know that they're going to execute the correct forms, and do everything in an orderly fashion.

不是每个人都需要财富管理师。

Not everybody needs a wealth manager.

这有点像私人教练，对吧？

It's sort of like personal training, right?

而且我刚才在背景里也说了，对吧，你应该同时有财富管理师和报税员，这没错，但总有一部分人非常能干，而且有时间自己处理这些事情。

And I know I just said in the background, right, you should have both a wealth manager and a tax filer, and that's true, but there are always gonna be a subset of people that are very capable, and they have the time to do things themselves.

所以，这总是关乎优先级，你知道，你希望自己的时间怎么安排。

So, it's always about priorities in terms of, you know, what you want your time to look like.

但归根结底，你不想等太久才去做明智的退休规划。

But at the end of the day, you don't want to wait too long to do smart retirement strategies.

你要趁年轻就开始，因为这样你能获得更多的复利收益。

You wanna start when you're young, because you're gonna get so much more of a compounding benefit by doing so.

我举个例子，用数字来说明一下。

Just to kind of give you sort of an example with numbers.

比如说我们拿两个人来假设，假设他们一生的平均有效税率是24%，对吧？

Let's you're, let's say we take two people, and let's just hypothetically say that their lifetime effective average tax rate is 24%, okay?

现在，假设一个人从55岁开始做税务规划，另一个人从25岁开始。

Now, let's say that one person starts tax planning at 55, and the other one starts at 25.

如果他们的有效税率只降低1%，降到，我刚才说的是多少，24？

If you were to drop their effective tax rate just 1% to, what did I say, 24?

比如说，你把它降到23%，对吧？

Let's say you drop it to 23, okay?

55岁的那个人，跟25岁的人相比，没有那么多年来节省这1%。

The person who's 55 doesn't have that many years, compared to the person of 25, of saving that 1%.

所以我们总是说，1%经过长期复利，价值有多大。

So So, we always talk about what's the value of 1% compounded over a long period of time.

那可是几十万美元。

That's hundreds of thousands of dollars.

对吧？

Right?

这是一大笔钱。

It's large amount of money.

所以越早开始，你就有越多的时间让税务规划的复利，或者说超额收益，真正让你受益。

So the younger you start, the more time you have for tax planning compounding, or alpha, right, should we say, to really benefit you.

我确实想谈谈超级后门罗斯，因为之前我提到了后门罗斯的陷阱。

I do wanna touch on the Mega Backdoor Roth, because I talked about the traps with the Backdoor Roth.

关于超级后门罗斯，有几点你真的需要记住。

There are a couple with the Mega Backdoor Roth that you really need to keep in mind.

第一点是，很多人以为自己是在做罗斯供款，但实际上他们做的是税后供款。

The first one is that a lot of people think that they are making Roth contributions, but they're making after tax contributions.

这是一个很大的区别，因为如果你做的是罗斯供款，你投入的是税后资金，但那些投资的收益，假设你遵守了国税局关于年龄和账户年限的规定，收益是免税的。

And that's a really big nuance, because if you're making Roth contributions, you're putting in after tax money, but those gains on those investments, assuming you follow the IRS rules on your age, the length of the accounting, gains are going to be tax free.

但如果你投入的是税后资金，却以为那是罗斯资金，因为两者都是税后的，税后资金的所有收益都是税前（即需要缴税）的。

But if you're putting in after tax money, thinking that it's Roth money, because they're both after tax, the after tax funds, all of the gains are pre tax.

所以人们经常犯这个错误，他们以为自己在做罗斯供款，但实际上他们只是做了普通的税后供款，最终会面临一笔非常沉重的税单。

And so people make this mistake all the time, where they think they're putting in Roth contributions, but they're actually putting in just plain after tax contributions, and they're gonna wind up with a very hefty tax bill.

因为如果你为了把钱存入税后401(k)而缴纳普通所得税，然后对所有的收益再缴纳普通所得税，你就是在同一笔钱上两次缴纳你将要支付的最高税率。

Because if you pay ordinary income tax to put money in an after tax four zero one, and then you pay ordinary income tax on all of the gains, you're paying the highest tax rate you're ever gonna pay twice on the same dollar.

所以，你真的不想那样做。

So, you really don't wanna do that.

所以，这是人们在从他们的401(k)做超级后门罗斯时经常搞错的一个大问题。

So, that's a huge nuance that people kind of trip up when they're doing these Mega Backdoor Roths from their 04/2001.

另一个大问题是，他们会把钱，把税后钱放进401(k)，然后投资，但忘了转换。

The other big nuance is they will put money, they'll put after tax money into their four zero one, and they'll invest it, and they'll just forget to convert it.

比如，他们就是有点懒，没有去转换。

Like, they just get kinda lazy, and they don't convert it.

这和我刚才解释的情况是同样的问题。

It's the same problem as in scenario I just explained.

那些收益是免税的。

Those gains are tax free.

抱歉，不好意思。

Sorry, excuse me.

那些收益是税前（延税）的。

Those gains are pre tax.

所以，这些税前资金在账户里赚取利息的时间越长，你最终的税务负担就越高。

So the longer that you keep those pretax funds earning interest, the higher your ultimate tax goal is gonna be.

所以，当你做这些Backdoor Roth，特别是Mega Backdoor Roth时，你要把那些税后资金迅速转到Roth账户，然后再进行投资，这样你就不用为所有这些收益缴税了。

So when you do these Backdoor Roths, the Mega Backdoor Roths, you wanna take those after tax funds, and quickly move them to the Roth accounts, and then invest them, so that you're not paying tax on all of those gains.

而且，你知道，对于超级后门罗斯，不需要填8606表格。

And then, you know, with the Mega Backdoor Roth, there's no Form 8,606 needed.

你只需要拿到托管机构发的1099-R表格。

You really just get a ten ninety nine R that your custodian issues.

所以，在这方面，会计师的文书工作会少一些。

So, it's a little bit less paperwork for your accountant in that regard.

不过，8606表格也不是什么高深莫测的东西。

Although, the 8,606 is not like, you know, it's not like rocket science.

你知道，任何会计师都应该能搞定。

You know, any accountant should be able to figure that out.

说到底，后门罗斯和超级后门罗斯是为那些高收入者准备的，他们没法直接向罗斯账户存钱，但你在退休时需要拥有这三种税务类型的账户，对吧？

You know, at the end of the day, the Backdoor Roth and the Mega Backdoor Roth are for those high earners who are not able, you know, to directly contribute to their Roth accounts, but you need to have all three buckets of those taxations as you go into retirement, right?

所以，你需要有税前账户里的钱，需要应税账户里的钱，还需要免税或税后账户里的钱。

So, you need money in pre tax accounts, you need money in taxable accounts, and you need money in tax free or post tax accounts.

这样就能对冲风险，因为你不知道未来的税率会怎样，但如果你在这三种账户里都有钱，你就可以在退休时策略性地选择从哪个账户取钱，从而保持低税率，而不是把所有鸡蛋放在一个篮子里，寄希望于未来税率是某个数值，而这你是无法预测的。

That way, it's a hedge, because you don't know what future tax rates are gonna be, but if you've got money in all three of those buckets, you can very strategically then choose which funds to pull from in retirement that will keep your tax rate low, as opposed to just putting all your eggs in one basket and hoping that a tax rate is is X, Y, Z in the future, which you can't predict.

老样子，谢谢你，Raul。

Thank you as always, Raul.

非常感谢你抽出时间，我们下个月再聊。

Really appreciate you taking the time and talk to you next month.

当然。

Absolutely.

再次感谢你，Rayna。

Thank you again, Rayna.

提醒一下，你在本播客中听到的任何内容都不应被视为投资建议。

Just a reminder, anything you hear on this podcast should not be considered investment advice.

这仅供娱乐参考，而且

This is for entertainment purposes only, and

在投资前，你应该咨询持牌专业人士的意见。

you should seek advice from a licensed professional before investing.

如果你喜欢这期节目，请在您最喜欢的播客应用上留下评分或评论，我们很快会带着新一期节目与您见面。

If you enjoyed the episode, leave a rating or review on your favorite podcasting app, and we'll see you soon with a new episode.