中央情报局的灵异间谍计划 | 星门

这些是美国中央情报局星门计划的原始文件。

These are the original files from the CIA's Project Stargate.

这是一个由中情局支持的顶级机密间谍项目，名为星门。

Top secret espionage program that was backed by the CIA called Stargate.

星门。

Stargate.

星门。

Stargate.

星门。

Stargate.

星门是一项持续了二十多年的军事情报行动，旨在利用遥视能力——你坐在一个房间里，试图运用心灵感应能力获取军事情报。

Stargate is a military intelligence operation that lasted over two decades, and it wanted to use remote viewing, so you're sitting in a room and you try to use psychic abilities to gain military intelligence.

这个项目贯穿了整个冷战时期以及之后不久，我知道你在想什么：这完全是巫术胡扯，整个事情包括这段视频都是心理战操作。我最初也怀疑是这样，直到我查阅了这些档案，真正深入研究了这个项目。

This is a program that lasted throughout the Cold War and immediately after and I know what you're thinking, this is complete voodoo nonsense, this entire thing including this video is a psyop, That's what I kind of suspected until I went through these archives, until I actually looked into this project.

因为这里有原始文件，这些是我将带你逐一查看的原始记录，它们令人难以置信。

Because there are, again, are the original documents, these are the original hits which I'm going to take you through that are incredible.

在带你们去和这些档案的创始人讨论这一切的哲学意义之前，我们先一起来看看这些文件。

We're going to look at some of these documents together before I take you to discuss what all this means philosophically with the founder of these archives.

他是一位哲学家，也是宗教研究学者，我们将探讨什么样的世界观、本体论和形而上学理论，才能解释远程视距可能存在的世界。

He's a philosopher, he's a scholar of religion, and we're going to discuss what kind of theory about the world, about ontology, about metaphysics is able to make sense of a world where remote viewing is possible.

所以，Stargate项目从70年代一直持续到1995年才被终止，并在同年解密，因此我并不是潜入了中情局总部才拿到这些材料。

So Stargate ran all the way from the 70s, it was terminated in '95, and then it was declassified in '95, So it's not like I was able to infiltrate the CIA headquarters and get these material.

这些全部都是公开可获取的。

These are all publicly available.

我现在正坐在莱斯大学。

I'm sitting in Rice University right now.

这些档案保存在一个名为‘不可能档案馆’的地方。

These are housed in what is called the Archives of the Impossible.

只要公众提出申请，就可以查阅。

They're available upon public request.

任何人都可以前来查阅这些资料。

Anyone can come and just see them.

这就是一次远程视距感知实验是如何进行的。

So this is how one of these remote viewing sessions worked.

作为其中一场实验的负责人，你会与美国陆军挑选出的远程视距感知者坐在一起，从这些工作表中的一份开始。

As a leader of one of these sessions, you sit down with the remote viewer that was selected through the US Army and you start with one of these worksheets.

以下是你要做的。

Here's what you do.

你为目标提供一个匿名编号，目标可能是某个军事基地，然后远程视距感知者尝试通过心灵感应连接目标，描绘并记录他或她所感知到的各种感官信息，之后再进行分析——我知道这听起来非常疯狂，但等你看到结果后再下定论。

You provide an anonymized reference number to the target, which could be a military based location, and your remote viewer tries to psychically tap into the target and sketches out and records all kinds of sensory input he or she receives before analyzing it later, which I know sounds really crazy, but wait till you see the results.

我知道你急着想看一些实际的案例，一些远程视距感知最出色的例子，这些都在第12号盒子的第3个文件夹里。

I know you're dying to see some of the actual hits, some of the best examples of remote viewing, and that is found in box 12 folder three.

这些二十年来最惊人、最可怕、最无法解释的案例。

The most awesome, terrifying, inexplicable examples coming out of these twenty years.

这是一个例子。

Here's an example.

这是绘图，以及它所匹配的实际目标。

This is the drawing, and this is what it was matched against.

好的。

Okay.

这是另一个例子。

Here's another example.

这是素描。

This is the drawing.

好的。

Okay.

这些远程观看者画出来的。

That these remote viewers did.

这是目标。

And this is the target.

而且，如果你只是这样看，可能觉得这没什么奇怪的，但想想发生了什么。

And again, this might not seem that crazy when you just look at it like this, but think about what's happening.

这个人正坐在一个黑暗的房间里，就像这样。

The person is sitting in a dark room, kind of like this.

他们完全没有得到任何描述，想想那里可能有的各种地形和基础设施，而他们却画出了这样的图。

They're being given no description whatsoever, and think about all the different kinds of terrain and infrastructure that could be on it, and they draw this.

好的，再来一个疯狂的例子，斯坦福购物中心。

Okay, here's another crazy one, the Stanford Shopping Center.

这几乎是一比一的匹配，对吧？

This is like almost like a one to one match, right?

但这些并不都只是关于物理地点。

But not all of these are just about physical locations.

这种技术显然也被大量尝试用于军事用途，这里就是一个很好的例子，对吧？

There was obviously a lot of attempted military usage of this technology as well, and here's a good example, right?

这是一个核材料试验场，等我们接下来采访档案馆创始人时，你会了解到为什么远程视物在获取核情报方面如此成功，以及与此相关的不同物质主义和唯心主义理论。

Here is a nuclear material test site, and you're gonna hear why remote viewing later on when we talk to the founder of the archives, why remote viewing has been so successful, especially at getting intel related to nuclear intelligence, and a different kind of materialist, idealist theories that have to relate to that.

远程视物并不总是只让人画出如果本人身处该地时所看到的景象，有时也会提供地图，比如你在这里看到的这个隧道系统。

And remote viewing isn't always only draw me the picture of what a person would see if the person were in that place, sometimes maps were given as well, like this tunnel system you see right here.

所以这是匹配结果，这是目标，而这是远程视物者绘制的隧道系统，后来得到了验证。

So this is the match, this is the target, and this is the tunnel system that the remote viewer created that was later verified.

许多最难以解释的遥视案例——尽管这一切都很难解释——都涉及那些被隐藏起来的事物，以至于身处现场的人也无法看到。

A lot of the most inexplicable cases of remote viewing, not that any of this is easily explicable, has to do with things that are hidden, such that a person who was there wouldn't be able to see it.

有些被隐藏的是像你在这里看到的卡车，另一些则隐藏在结构下方，比如著名的潜艇例子。

Some of these are hidden trucks like you see here, others are hidden under structures like the famous submarine example.

当我翻阅这些档案时，这个例子让我大为震惊。

This is another example that kind of blew my mind when I was going through these archives.

再想想这里涉及的地形和基础设施种类之多，但这里的匹配却精确得不可思议。

Again, think about the sheer amount of different kinds of terrain and infrastructure, and yet the match here is impossibly close.

这是另一个很好的例子，展示了遥视的一个重要特征：时间性。

And here's another good example that shows a important element of remote viewing, which is the temporality.

因为在这里，你看到的是火箭发动机测试正在进行的特定时刻，当时有一片白色云团。

Because here you have a specific moment where a rocket engine test was being performed and there was a white cloud.

在遥视绘图中，也有一片白色尘云，对吧？

In the remote viewing drawing, there's also a white dust cloud, right?

但遥视的时间性并不总是同步的。

But the remote viewing temporality is not always simultaneous.

有时，远程观看者能够看到一个地点几十年前的样子，甚至有时还能看到未来，你将在采访后期听到档案馆创始人谈到这一点。

Sometimes remote viewers are able to see what a site looks like decades before and sometimes even in the future, which you'll hear the founder of the archives talk about later in the interview.

那么，为什么美国要费心做这件事呢？

So why would The United States bother with this?

这看起来像是完全浪费纳税人的钱，超过两千万美元被投入其中。

This seems like a complete waste of taxpayer money, over 20,000,000 was sunken into this.

这是因为冷战。

It was because of the Cold War.

有趣的是，在战争期间，每个人都是实用主义者。

And what's interesting is that during war, everyone's a pragmatist.

没人关心某件事会不会让你显得愚蠢。

No one worries about whether something is gonna make you sound silly.

人们只关心什么有效。

People care about what works.

因此，远程观看的拥护者会说，如果它无效，美国政府会持续做二十年，投入超过两千万美元吗？

And so defenders of remote viewing say, well, if it didn't work, would the US government keep doing it for twenty years, sinking over 20,000,000?

不仅美国政府在冷战期间进行了这项研究，其他主要大国如苏联和中国也是如此。

And not only did the US government do this during the Cold War, but all the major powers, Soviet Union and China as well.

当我们想到冷战时，会想到间谍电影、核弹四处飞射、先进战机，但其实冷战期间还进行着一场秘密的超感官 espionage 与反间谍战。

So when we think Cold War, we think spy movies, nukes flying left and right, we think advanced aircraft, but there was this secret psychic war of espionage and counter espionage that was going on during the Cold War.

好的，我现在手上拿着的是编号为31的文件盒，这是一份日期为1981年8月19日提交给参谋长联席会议的报告。

Okay, so I have on my hands right here, box three one, this is a report to the Joint Chief of Staff, dated 08/19/1981.

这份报告是关于什么的？

What is it about?

摘要：该报告提供了有关中国在超感官知觉领域近期活动的更多信息。

Summary, the report provides further information on recent activities in China in the area of extrasensory perception.

这种间谍与反间谍行为如此普遍，以至于总统本人还收到了建议，不要启动某些导弹项目，因为担心苏联有能力感知这些导弹基地，从而浪费巨额资金。

This kind of espionage and counter espionage was such a common worry that the president himself was given recommendations to not build certain missile programs because they were worried that the Soviet Union had the capacity to sense those missile sites, and therefore wasting all that money.

这是一个非常严谨的项目，由物理学家主导，人们希望确保他们获得的是真实的准确信息。

This is a very rigorous program, it was run by physicists, and people wanted to make sure that they were getting actual hits.

原因就在于战争。

The reason is because of war.

战争迫使我们进行许多创新。

War forces us to do many innovations.

我们如今不愿承认，但往往是战争在极短的时间内催生了最重要的一些创新。

We don't like to admit this these days, but it's often war that brings out some of the most important innovations in the most unbelievably short amount of time.

所以在与这些档案的创始人交谈之前，我想花些时间谈谈这一切意味着什么。

So before we talk with the founder of these archives, I want to spend some time talking about what all of this means.

因为显然，如果这是真的——我怀疑它确实是——或者至少这里有些东西，那就意味着有实际的优势。

Because clearly, if this is true, which I suspect it is, or there's something here at least, there's real world advantages to be had.

世界超级大国不会花费数千万美元、数十年时间、动用顶尖人员，如果这里真没什么东西，对吧？

The world's superpowers wouldn't have spent tens of millions of dollars, decades, top personnel, if there wasn't something here, right?

但那并不是我对此感兴趣的原因。

But that's not why I'm interested in this.

顺便说一句，当我提到‘这里有些东西’、‘实际优势’时，确实有一些咨询公司把远程视距用于商业应用。

And by the way, when I say something here, when I say real world edge, there are consultancy firms that use remote viewing for business applications.

但那并不是让我对此感到兴奋的原因。

But that's not why I'm excited about this.

我对此感到兴奋的原因在于，它标志着我作为探索者的精神旅程、我试图理解这个世界、探究形而上学与本体论——究竟发生了什么——的哲学追求中的一个关键节点。

The reason I'm excited about this is because it marks a very important point on my spiritual journey as a seeker, on my philosophical quest of trying to make sense of this world, to understand metaphysics and ontology on what the hell is actually going on.

我认为星门计划之所以重要，是因为它是由物理学家们实施和操作的，正如我之前所说。

Stargate is important I think because it was performed and operated by, like I said before, physicists.

这些是世俗的物理学家，其中一些，正如你将在后续采访中听到的，仍然是唯物主义者。

It was secular physicists, some of which as you'll hear later on in the interview, remained materialists by the way.

正是这些人领导着这项计划。

Those are the people leading it.

苏联同样参与了这项计划。

The Soviet Union again was involved in this.

当然，正如你所知，苏联人是共产主义者。

And of course, as you know, the Soviet Union were communists.

共产主义者是唯物主义者。

The communists are materialists.

那么，一个唯物主义的超级大国，为何会投入资金、资源，并认可超心理学研究？

How did a materialist superpower give money and resources and credence to psychical research?

这是创始人将帮助我们解答的问题之一。

That's one of the questions that the founder is going to help us answer.

但这正是这件事如此令人兴奋的原因。

But this is why this is so exciting.

我认为，当我们想要批判一种世界观时，必须进行内在批判。

I think when we want to critique a worldview, we must engage in imminent critique.

内在批判是指采纳他们的假设，然后找出其中的内在矛盾。

Imminent critique is taking their assumptions on board and then finding internal contradictions.

下面是一个应该避免的例子。

So here's an example of what not to do.

当我看到灵性或宗教人士与无神论者争论时，最糟糕的辩论方式就是宗教人士只是引用经文，而无神论者则直接假设经文是错的。

When I see spiritual religious people arguing against atheists, the worst kind of debate is the religious people are just quoting the scripture, the atheists are just assuming the scripture is wrong.

双方都在引入各自世界观的预设。

Both are importing assumptions from their worldview.

这远不如假设对方——你想要剖析的一方——所相信的观点，并揭示其世界观内部存在的矛盾来得更有说服力。

That is a lot less satisfying than assuming what the other person believes, the side you want to unpack believes, and showing how their worldview has imminent contradictions.

我认为，星门计划代表了科学的某种意义。

And that's what I think Stargate represents for science.

它通过实证方法进行，同样是由世俗科学家开展的。

It was conducted by empirical methods, again, secular scientists.

这些项目由世俗的政府机构提供资金支持。

These are things that were funded by secular governmental authorities.

因此，至少对我来说，它比通灵者的证词更有分量。

And so I think it has a lot more weight for me, at least, than testimonies, for example, from psychics.

那么，不赘述了，让我们来与这位创始人交谈，他是一位杰出的哲学与宗教学者，探讨这一切的意义。

And so without further ado, let's go talk with the founder, who's, again, a great scholar of philosophy and religion, about what all of this means.

星门计划的前身运动有哪些？

What are the predecessor movements to Stargate?

因为显然，这并不是凭空出现的。

Because obviously this didn't just pop out of nowhere.

在该项目被终止后，今天还有谁在从事这类研究？

And who is doing this type of work today after the program was stopped?

我们同样不知道现在是谁在做这件事，因为这属于机密项目。

Again, we don't know who's doing it today because again, it was classified.

所以这项工作现在可能仍在进行。

So it could be going on right now.

但我以为中情局已经终止了这个项目。

But I thought the CIA terminated this.

他们就是这么说的。

That's what they say.

是的，我的意思是，情报工作不就是这样的吗？

Yeah, I mean, that's how intelligence works, right?

我的意思是，当你解密某件事并将其公之于众时。

I mean, you declassify something, you make it public.

但当它仍在进行且属于机密时，就不会对外公开。

But when it's still going on and it's classified, it's not public.

所以我也不知道它是否还在进行。

So I don't know if it's going on.

它可能没有在进行，乔纳森，但 certainly 可能正在发生。

It may not be going on, Jonathan, but it certainly might be.

事实是，超自然现象一直被武器化。

The truth is, is that the paranormal has always been weaponized.

它一直是

It's always been part of

黑魔法、血魔法，对吧？

Black magic, blood magic, right?

我的意思是，甚至像死藤水这样的致幻物质，当你服用或参与这类实践时，通常是为了伤害敌人、猎杀动物或投入战争。

I mean, even ayahuasca, when you take a psychedelic substance or when you engage in a practice like this, you do it to harm an enemy or to kill an animal or to go to war often.

这并不总是光明正大的。

It's not always pretty.

因此才有黑魔法这个说法。

And hence the phrase black magic.

你知道，大多数魔法都是为了负面目的而使用的。

You know, most a lot of magic is intended for negative purposes.

而这正是它被谴责了数千年的一个原因，正是因为这种用途。

And this is one of the reasons that it was condemned for millennia really, was because of this use.

因此，这种人类能力确实有其历史渊源。

So this human ability certainly has precedence.

星门计划的独特之处，以及远程观测的独特之处在于，它是一种科学的命名方式，用来替代其他文化中所说的千里眼、第二视觉、第二 Sight，或者还有各种文化对这种能力的不同称呼。

What's unique about Project Stargate and what's unique about the remote viewing, remote viewing was a scientific way of renaming what other cultures called clairvoyance or second seeing or second sight or there are all kinds of cultural names for what disability is.

对。

Right.

问题是，为什么中央情报局终止了它？

The question is, why did the CIA terminate it?

我的意思是，1995年的一项评估称，该项目没有任何成果，浪费了两千万美元，也许那只是个骗局，对吧？

I mean, there was a 1995 review where it said there was nothing that came out of that, wasted $20,000,000 Maybe that's a SIOP, right?

因为它确实有效时，会让人感到兴奋。

Because it's a high that it's actually working.

是的，那它有效吗？

Yeah, so did it work?

那为什么呢？

So why?

所以，你知道，我们从远程视距社区得到了许多答案。

So, you know, answer that we get a number of answers from the remote viewing community.

其中一个说法是，你不会资助一个持续二十二年却毫无成效的项目。

And one of them is you don't fund a program for twenty two years that doesn't work.

但你也不会取消一个正在给你提供强大成果的项目，

But you also don't cancel a program that's giving you strong Well,

来自该社区的另一个说法是，它被取消主要是出于宗教原因。

you cancel the story again from that community is that it was canceled largely for religious reasons.

什么？

What?

当时有个基督教的CIA局长？

There was a Christian CIA director?

当时有一些非常保守的基督徒。

There were very conservative Christians.

我的意思是，这只是一个说法。

I mean, is a story.

军方和资金管理机构中有一些非常保守的基督徒，他们并不否认该机构或这种现象的真实性，但他们将其与恶魔联系在一起。

There were very conservative Christians in the military and in the way the money was organized and that they weren't denying the agency or the reality of the phenomenon, but they were equating it with demons.

对。

Right.

所以他们实际上担心的是血魔法。

And so they were actually worried about blood magic.

是的。

Yeah.

他们担心的是用政府资金来支持恶魔般的实践，本质上如此。

Well, were concerned about spending government money on demonic practices, essentially.

这就是那个说法。

That's the story.

再说一遍，我并没有认可这个特定的说法，但很明显，这就是流传的叙事。

Again, I'm not ratifying that particular story, but that's clearly the narrative.

另一个说法是，依我自己的直觉，远程 Viewing 的效果远超应有的水平。

And the other narrative is, again, you don't my own gut feeling is that remote viewing worked far more than it should have.

是的，确实有失败的时候，但也有非凡的准确命中。

Yes, there were failures, but there were also extraordinary hits.

而远程 Viewing 真正特别之处在于，它是政府和军方资助的。

And that what is really special about remote viewing is that it's government and military sponsored.

所以军方并不在意某件事是否具有争议性。

So the military doesn't care whether something's controversial.

他们只关心它是否有效。

It cares if it works.

但话说回来，他们确实也在意是否具有争议性，尤其是当基督徒介入时。

Well, but then it cared whether it was controversial Sure, when the Christians took

但关键是。

but the point is that

这是一种纯粹的实用主义。

there's a kind of brute pragmatism.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah,

所以我实际上非常喜爱星门计划和遥视，因为这是一个军事和政府机构基本认可了一种在其他领域被否定的实践的时刻。

and so I actually am very, very fond of Project Stargate and remote viewing because it's a moment where the military and the government are basically affirming a practice that is being disconfirmed in other circles.

好吧，这里面有很多内容需要梳理。

Okay, so much to unpack there.

首先，怀疑论者对为什么它在过去二十多年里获得了两千万元资金的解释是：第一，这在军费预算中只是九牛一毛。

The first thing is the skeptical answer to why it's been funded $20,000,000 over Yeah, '22 is the over first to lose, twenty or so years, two decades is, number one, that's peanuts in military budget.

第二，冷战时期。

Number two, Cold War.

我们会谈到这一点。

And we're going to talk about this.

苏联和中国都有自己的项目。

Soviet Union and China had their own programs.

因此，这对他们来说是一种廉价的保险，以防万一，只是为了理解这一点。

And so this is cheap insurance for them, just in case, just to understand that.

只是为了有一个合理的理由解释为什么政府会资助一些没有任何证据支持的项目，然后你会说，好吧，这就是那些没成功的火箭是如何获得资助的。

And just to so there is a plausible argument for why the government would fund something without any And then you say, well, it's about to, you know, this is how the rockets that didn't work were funded.

几乎就要成功了。

It's almost there.

几乎就要成功了。

It's almost there.

我们越来越接近了，这里那里可能会有一些不错的成果。

We're getting close and there might be some some good results here and there.

是的。

Yeah.

但我并不被这些论点说服。

So I'm not persuaded by those arguments.

我觉得这真的很有意思。

I think it's really interesting.

我的意思是，基本上有一个政府资助的项目持续了二十二年，研究超自然能力，而且它的成功率比应有的要高。

I mean, basically you have a government funded program for twenty two years that into psychical abilities that worked more often than it should have.

我的底线就是这一点。

I mean, that's the bottom line for me.

它并不让我惊讶，因为很多时候它确实没有成功。

It doesn't surprise me that it often didn't work.

你知道，在远程观测圈子里，有一个争论是关于训练的：是否能建立一种协议，让几乎任何人都能产生这种效果，还是说这取决于特别有天赋的人。

You know, there's this debate in the remote viewing community between training, whether you can create a protocol that will basically affect or produce this result in almost anyone, or whether it's a function of especially gifted people.

文献上是怎么说的？

Where does the literature lie?

比如实验结果，训练方面的研究进展如何？

Like the results, where does it go training?

远程观测项目显然偏向训练这一方。

Well, remote viewing program was clearly on the training side.

它试图建立一种协议。

It was trying to create a protocol.

我对这一点非常怀疑。

I'm very suspicious of that.

我认为这跟特殊的人有关。

I think it's about special people.

对。

Right.

我认为需要特殊的条件才能产生这些效果，但我相信这些效果是真实存在的，并且可以通过某种协议或科学方法来实现，我本人是

I think it takes special circumstances to produce these effects, but I think the effects are very real, but amenable to a protocol or a science in I'm a

考虑到你自身的自由派倾向，我对您如此肯定星门计划感到有点惊讶。

bit surprised that you are so positive on the Stargate program, given that given your own liberal tendencies.

我们谈过，这些神秘主义运动在政治上是不确定的。

We talked about how these mystical movements, they are undetermined politically.

对吧？

Right?

新时代明显是左派的。

The new age that's left, clearly.

希特勒有一个神秘主义的部门。

Hitler had a mystical division.

纳粹基本上有一个神秘学家部门。

There's like a Mystic's department basically of the Nazis.

我以为你会对这种政府利用、本质上是武器化的行为感到非常担忧。

I thought you would be very worried about this governmental utilization, weaponizing essentially.

我以为你会更加担心，嗯，比那更多。

I would have thought that you would be worried more Well, so than

并不是我没有道德上的顾虑，而是超自然现象一直都被武器化了。

it's not that I don't have moral concerns, it's that the paranormal has always been weaponized.

这本来就是人类会做的事。

It's just that's what human beings do.

我只是不认为有什么特别的，而Stargate项目的独特之处在于，它是政府、物理学家们——

I just don't and what's unique about the Stargate materials is it's the government, it's physicists, it's-

很好。

great.

无神论者、世俗人士。

Atheists, secular people.

对我来说，这非常迷人。

It's like that to me is fascinating.

所以我大概更倾向于以历史学家的角度来看待这个问题，我真的很感兴趣。我个人认为，正如你所知，政府和怀疑论者群体基本上在对人们进行精神操控，关于超自然现象。

So I guess I approach it more as a historian and I'm really interested in I personally think, as you know, I think basically the government and the skeptical community basically gaslights people around the paranormal.

我认为我们只是被欺骗了。

I think we're just being lied to.

这和UFO的情况一样，是的，

This is the same with UFOs or Yeah,

我只是觉得我们只是被欺骗了。

I just think it's just we're being lied to.

他们把确实存在的骗局抬出来，作为对一切现象的解释。

And they hold up fraud, which really exists, as sort of an explanation for everything.

但这并不成立。

It's just not.

这并不成立。

It's just not.

这不是真的。

It's not true.

没错。

Right.

所以你的理解是，这在某种意义上仍在继续。

And so your reading would be something like this is probably continuing in some sense.

他们正在释放部分数据。

They're letting out certain parts of the data.

他们说：嘿，朋友们，这其实没成功。

They're saying, hey, guys, this actually didn't work.

我们在被心理操控。

We're being gaslit.

这正是安全许可所涉及的内容。

That's what security clearances are about.

这关于隐藏某些东西。

It's about hiding something.

所以在档案中，你对

So in the archives, are you doubtful of

材料的真实性有怀疑吗？

the authenticity of the materials?

因为这可能就像他们正在给你提供。

Because that could be like they could be giving you.

换句话说，根据你的说法，他们应该给我们一堆废品，全部都是废品，或者

Mean, according to your narrative, they should be giving us duds, all the duds and or

更准确地说，首先，我认识很多其邮件、短信和 transcripts 都包含在其中的人。

more Well, of first of all, I know a lot of the people whose emails and whose texts and whose transcripts are in there.

所以我实际上并不怀疑它们的真实性。

So I actually don't doubt their authenticity.

但我不代表政府、军队或情报界，所以我也不知道发生了什么，或者，你知道的，我就在这里划清界限。

But I don't speak for the government or speak for the military or intelligence community, so I have no idea what's going on or, you know, that's where I just draw the line.

我的意思是，研究人员在档案馆工作。

I mean, researchers work in archives.

他们知道档案里有什么，但不知道档案里缺少什么。

They know what's in the archives, but they don't they don't know what's not in the archive.

对。

Right.

我明白了。

I see.

除了遥视，星门计划还有两个任务，对吧？

Other than remote viewing, Stargate had two mandates, right?

一个是遥视，另一个是心灵致动。

It was remote viewing and it was also psychokinesis.

遥视是感知，心灵致动是影响。

So remote viewing is sensing and psychokinesis is influencing.

在星门计划中，心灵致动并未成功。

Psychokinesis did not work within Stargate.

对。

Right.

他们无法为心灵致动制定一个协议或科学实验。

They couldn't create a protocol or a scientific study of psychokinesis.

这并不意味着它真的没有发生。

Again, it doesn't mean it's not doesn't happen.

这意味着目前还没有相关的科学依据。

This means that there is no science around it.

心灵致动在现实中会发生吗？

Does psychokinesis happen in the wild?

我觉得会。

I think so.

你遇到过最令人信服的案例之一吗？

Has been one of the most compelling cases that you've come across?

她被称为金箔女士。

She's called the gold leaf lady.

她从脸上和手臂上排出金箔。

She exuded gold leaf from her face and her arms.

结果发现那是假金。

It turns out it's fake gold.

这不是真正的金子。

It's not real gold.

我们实际上在档案中保存了真正的金箔。

We actually have the actual gold in the archives.

我的意思是，那些假金箔。

Mean, the actual fake gold.

它来自一个-

It's from a-

等等，抱歉，像胡须一样？

Wait, sorry, as whiskers?

它会以胡须的形式出来

It comes out as whiskers

还是？

or?

它从她的脸和手臂中散发出来。

It's emanated from her face and her arms.

斯蒂芬·布朗迪，一位分析哲学家，顺便说一下，他在一本名为《金叶女士与其他超心理学研究》的书中写到了这一点。

Stephen Browdie, who's an analytic philosopher, by the way, he wrote about it in a book called The Gold Leaf Lady and Other Parapsychological Investigations.

所以我认为，这是我们在档案中所拥有的关于心灵致动的最戏剧性的案例之一。

So I think that's the most that's one of the most dramatic cases that we have in the archives of certainly psychokinesis.

换句话说，对。

In other words Right.

让我想到的是，对吧？

The coming mind to me, right?

是的。

Yeah.

影响物质，对吧？

Influencing matter, right?

在这种情况下，心灵创造了物质。

The mind, in this case, creating matter.

但心灵致动并不一定涉及创造。

But psychokinesis doesn't have to be a function of creation.

它可以是操控或影响物质的一种方式。

It can be a function of manipulating or influencing matter.

对。

Right.

这基本上就是《星球大战》中的原力。

This is the Force in Star Wars, basically.

对吧？

Right?

我认为原力确实是存在的。

Again, I think the Force really exists.

有一种心灵的

There's like a psych psychical

或者在电影里，这显然是被戏剧化了的。

or It's it's dramatized, obviously, in the movies.

说到学校里的那位女士，这是我第一次听说这件事。

On the school leaf lady, this is the first time I'm hearing about this.

你见过她吗？没有，但我见过金箔。

You met her or No, but I saw the gold leaf.

她是什么时候出生的？

When was she born?

她是什么时候去世的？

When did she die?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这是个很尖锐、棘手的问题。

That's a steep, rowdy question.

我觉得她住在佛罗里达，也许现在还活着。

I think she lived in Florida, and maybe she's still alive.

我的意思是，我不知道。

Mean, I don't know.

哇。

Wow.

好吧，我得去了解一下。

Okay, I'll have to.

而且她只是能控制金子的分泌，或者

And she just she can control the exuding of gold or

她之所以这样，是有完整的精神和社会原因的。

she She had a whole psycho social reason and why that happened.

你可以读一读那本叫《金叶》的书。

And you can read the book called The Gold

金叶？这就像点石成金，对吧？

Leaf Well, this is like Midas Touch, right?

而那个也可能。

Which also might.

是的，我知道我们接下来要讨论什么了，我觉得。

Yeah, I know where we're going to go with, I think, that.

我的意思是，这很奇怪。

I mean, it's weird.

你一个接一个地掉进兔子洞里，乔纳森。

You go down one rabbit hole after another, Johnathan.

这种物质化效应只是另一个兔子洞。

This materialization effect is just another rabbit hole.

你在关于星门计划的文章中写道，军方专门挑选那些不信邪但心理健康的人员，对吧？

You wrote in an article on Stargate that the army specifically picked people who weren't believers, but psychically healthy, right?

这似乎与你关于创伤的更广泛观点相矛盾，即创伤是产生这些超自然声音的必要条件。

That seems to go against your broader thesis about trauma, and how trauma is necessary to engender these paranormal voices.

是的，军方不是杰夫。

Yeah, army is not Jeff.

对。

Right.

对，没错。

So right.

是的。

Yes.

这一点已经非常清楚了。

You've made that abundantly clear.

所以问题在于，如果他们选择完全相反类型的人，可能会更成功。

So the challenge is they probably would have more success if they went for the exact opposite kind

这种类型。

of thing.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

我觉得是。

Think so.

再说一遍，我认为这取决于个人。

Again, I think it's human dependent.

我认为这是因人而异的。

I think it's individual dependent.

但再说一遍，这只是我个人的观点。

But again, that's my own position.

这当然不是远程视距项目所关注的内容。

And it's certainly not what the remote viewing program was about.

他们关注的是建立一套协议，进行科学研究，试图以实证或科学的方式弄清楚这种现象是如何运作的。

They were, again, about creating a protocol and doing the science and trying to figure out how this thing works in an empirical or scientific way.

顺便说一下，这也是为什么该项目由物理学家主导的。

That's why it was led by physicists, by the way.

在20世纪70年代，它由两位物理学家领导；到了80年代和90年代，则由也是物理学家的爱德华·梅领导。

It was led by two physicists in the '70s, and then it was led by Ed May in the '80s and '90s, who's also a physicist.

你提到核武器、UAP、UFO和远程视距之间存在某种奇怪的联系，似乎在核武器附近更容易获得明确的命中结果之类的。

You mentioned that nukes, UAPs, UFOs and remote viewing, they have some weird connection where something around nukes just get easier hits or something like that.

给我们讲讲这方面的数据，以及你是怎么理解的。

Tell us about the data there and what you make of that.

所以我认为核设施周围有很多UFO，因为它们是未来人类，而且非常担忧。

So I think there's a lot of UFOs around nuclear sites because they're future humans, and they're really concerned.

UFO是未来人类。

The UFOs are future humans.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我是未来人类，我会对当今人类正在做的两件事感到非常担忧：核能和生态问题。

If I were a future human, would be really concerned about two things that the present humans are doing nuclear energy and ecological.

这回到了你所说的意愿性逆向块宇宙循环。

This goes back to your willing backward block universe recurrence.

这关于时间是一种

This is about time being sort

是的，从块宇宙的时间旅行模型来看，这对我来说是有道理的。

of Yeah, that makes sense to me in terms of a block universe kind of temporal time travel model.

这再次说明，远程观测的文献并不支持这种说法。

That's again, that's not what the remote viewing literature suggests.

所以，UFO和核武器之间确实存在某种联系。

So there's a connection between UFOs and nukes, certainly.

但那这两者和远程观测又有什么关系呢？

But but what about remote viewing in those two things?

那么，为什么它们会有关联呢？

So why is that connected?

所以，这在你的

So again, this in your

观点中，是的。

view, yeah.

历史上确实有远程观测者看到UFO，并在他们的远程观测报告中描述了UFO体验。

So there is this history where remote viewers are seeing UFOs and they're reporting UFO experiences in their remote viewing.

这些内容并不在他们应该观测到的‘命中’信息中，但却是他们实际看到的。

And that's not in the hits or that's not necessarily in what they're supposed to see, but that's what they see.

所以，这再次让我并不感到惊讶，因为我认为一旦你向这些其他通道敞开心扉，你就会看到各种各样的东西，包括UFO。

So that, again, doesn't surprise me because I think once you open yourself up to these other channels as it were, you're going to see all kinds of things, including UFOs.

所以我认为UFO与远程观看能力 somehow 有关联。

So I think the UFO is somehow connected to the remote viewing capacity.

但再说一次，我并不清楚具体是怎么回事。

But again, I claim to know how.

机制，是的。

The mechanism, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你知道有哪些因素会提高或降低准确率吗？比如人的类型、他们所做的事情、所看到的景象类型。

Do you know anything about what things increase or decrease the accuracy, like the type of person, the type of thing they do, the type of sight they see.

所以埃德·梅对远程观看的物理学有一整套理论。

So Ed May has a whole theory about the physics of remote viewing.

埃德认为，熵的增加基本上会提高远程观看命中率。

What Ed thinks is that entropy basically increases the likelihood of a remote viewing hit.

对。

Right.

换句话说，炸弹爆炸会产生大量熵。

In other words, a bomb going off creates a lot of entropy.

因此，你更有可能远程观测到它，而不是那些没有熵、只是静止不动的事物。

And so you're much more likely to remote view it than something that has no entropy, something that's just sitting there.

核潜艇之类的东西会是高价值目标。

And nuclear submarines and stuff would be a high target.

我也这么认为。

I would think so.

我觉得这会非常有趣。

I think it'd be really interesting.

所以这几乎就是冷战的原因。

So that's almost why it was Cold War.

这是有相关性的，对吧？

It was relevant, right?