现代约会的问题 | 大卫·奥康纳谈尼采、柏拉图与基督

它是可以被驯服的。

It's tameable.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, it is.

它就像一头被驯服的狮子。

It's a tame lion.

我们已经掌握了这一点。

We've got that.

而柏拉图通过伟大喜剧作家阿里斯托芬的演讲打断了这场聚会。

And Plato breaks up the party on that with the speech of the great comic writer, Aristophanes.

阿里斯托芬说：我要发表一篇完全不同于你们的演讲。

Aristophanes is the one who says, I'm going give a speech not at all like your speeches.

他演讲的核心是，不把年长男性与年轻男性的关系作为核心。

And the core of his speech really is, not to allow relationships between an older man and a younger man to be the centerpiece.

他是第一个将男女之间的性爱与繁衍关系作为爱欲核心描述的演讲者。

And he's the first speaker who makes erotic, procreative erotic relations between a male and a female a central part of his account of eros.

这彻底改变了对话的性质。

And that changes the dialogue entirely.

从那时起，问题变成了：人类的生活是否能够以某种方式成为双性同体的，即通过具有生育性的欲望将男性特质与女性特质融合在一起。

From that point on, the question of whether a human life can be androgynous in the sense that it integrates something that's masculine and something that's feminine through something that is procreatively erotic.

这成为了核心问题。

That becomes the central question.

所以我认为柏拉图早已触及这一点。

So I think Plato already got there.

而这一讨论的高潮在于，性爱生活就是繁殖，是在美中的繁衍。

And the high point of that discussion is the notion that the erotic life is reproduction, is procreation in the beautiful.

这就是它的本质。

That's what it is.

苏格拉底在阐述这一点时确实暗示，精神上的孩子比纯粹肉体上的孩子更崇高，但当然，真正的孩子也是精神上的孩子。

And Socrates, in his account of it, does suggest that spiritual children are higher than merely physical children, but of course real children are spiritual children.

你理解那些良好的品德。

You take okay virtues.

你确实如此。

You sure do.

我的意思是，当你有了孩子，你就承担了一项漫长的教育任务，而这正是拥有孩子的伟大之处。

I mean, you're taking on a long educational task when you have children, and that's part of the glory of having children.

你渴望这样的任务。

You want that task.

没错。

Right.

所以，尽管令人惊讶，柏拉图实际上已经接近了某种东西；为了完成它，我想说——我认为柏拉图并未真正完成它——要完成《会饮篇》的智性工程，你必须提升婚姻本身。

So Plato, as surprising as it may be, he actually found his way to something that, to complete it, I would say, and I don't think Plato did complete it, to complete the intellectual project of the symposium, I think you have to elevate marriage as such.

这给哲学数百年来对自己的定位带来了巨大挑战。

And that is a great challenge to the way philosophy has identified itself through all these centuries.

有多少伟大的哲学家是伟大的丈夫或妻子呢？

How many great philosophers were great husbands or great wives?

甚至有没有结婚呢？是的。

Or even had wives, Yes.

柏拉图挑战了他那个时代哲学的自我形象，这种形象认为，是的，女性情绪化，不够理性。

Plato challenges philosophy's self image in his own time as something that, yeah, women, they're kind of emotional, they're not really rational.

男性之间交谈时，那是男人的事。

Men, when we talk to each other, that's man stuff.

他挑战了这种观念。

He challenges that.

能够做到这一点，是一种非凡的文化成就。

Well, that's an extraordinary cultural achievement to have been able to do that.

是的，因为非常有趣的是，在

Yeah, because what's very interesting is that in the

你提到，这些男性就像非自愿独身者一样，提供了一种过于阳刚的爱情观，试图以同样的方式驯服爱情，就像非自愿独身者用过度分析的方式试图控制他们的焦虑。

book you said not only do these men, much like the incels, give an overly masculine picture of love to try to tame it in the same way that the incel gives an overly analytical picture of what's gone wrong to sort of control their anxieties.

但你也指出，哲学本身也过于阳刚，而柏拉图正试图纠正这一点。

But you also said that philosophy itself was overly masculine and that that's something that Plato was trying to correct.

我想你的意思是，哲学本身也需要纳入非理性元素，或向我们揭示这些内容。

And by that, I suppose you mean that philosophy itself also needs to bring in the non rational elements, or tell us about that.

是的。

Yes.

当然，哲学家们说我们需要引入非理性元素，这是一个很好的起点。

And of course, philosophers, to say we need to bring in the non rational elements, that's a good starting point.

但这也已经预设了男性化的立场。

But of course that already presupposes the masculine thing.

理性元素就是这些内容。

The rational elements are these things.

如果你教哲学导论，这几乎是不可避免的。

If you teach Intro to Philosophy, it's almost inevitable.

你会教一些方法。

You're going to teach a couple of techniques.

好吧，你必须能够区分必要条件和充分条件。

Okay, you've got to be able to tell the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions.

你还需要知道有效论证和可靠论证之间的区别。

And you've got to know the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument.

现在，‘有效’和‘可靠’这两个词的用法根本就不是日常英语的表达方式。

Now, valid and sound, that way of using those words just is not normal English.

所以你得加入我们的阵营，学会规范地构建论证。

So you've got to get on our team about regimenting how you make arguments.

如果你足够出色，接下来我们会教你如何构造反例。

And then if you're really good, the next thing we'll do is teach you how to do counterexamples.

我的意思是，这简直就是直男世界的标准做法。

I mean, that's bro world right there.

对吧？

Right?

有一种对哲学的特定看法，认为掌握这些技巧是成为哲学家所必须具备的。

There's a certain picture of what philosophy is that makes learning those techniques the thing that you've got to have to be a philosopher.

这三种方法确实都是非常有用的思维技巧，我完全支持它们。

Now, all three of those are really useful intellectual techniques and I'm all for them.

但思考过程中还涉及许多其他方面。

But there are a lot of other things that go into thinking as well.

所以，有一种对思维的狭隘看法，称之为理性，这在我看来与一种更丰富的思维形式——即审慎——形成了竞争。

So, there's a sort of narrow view of thinking, call it rationality, that seems to me in competition with a much richer kind of thinking, call it thoughtfulness.

柏拉图非常擅长构建理性论证，他能轻易地做出这样的论证。

And Plato is so good at the rationality argument forming, so he can make arguments just like that.

整天都是这样。

All day, yeah.

他在这方面简直太出色了。

He's just great at it.

但他也有深刻的审慎，能够看到一种特定的动机，尤其是对那些聪明的年轻人，特别是聪明的年轻男性而言，他们更爱论证本身，而不是他们所争论的事物。

But he has this deep thoughtfulness that also sees that there's a specific motive, especially for the clever young, and clever young men particularly, who love the arguments more than they love the thing they're arguing about.

在《理想国》中，苏格拉底有一个著名的描述：如果你过早地教年轻人辩证法，他们会像小狗一样，只顾着撕咬鞋子。

In The Republic, has his famous, Socrates has his famous description of how, yeah, if you teach dialectic to the young too early, they're like puppies who just tear apart shoes.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

30岁之前不要接触哲学。

No philosophy before 30.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

你得在那里面等一段时间。

You gotta wait for a little while in there.

嗯，《会饮篇》也在做类似的工作。

Well, the symposium's doing some of the same kind of work there.

有一种方式是把自己呈现为：做哲学需要你真正成为一个男人。

There is a way of presenting yourself as there's a way of presenting philosophy as something that really you've got to become a man to do.

无论你是男是女，你都得成为一个男人才能做到，因为你必须推开其他那些东西。

Whether you're a man or a woman, you've got to become a man to do it because you have to push away these other things.

然后你就可以在文化上贬低这些其他事物，说，是的，那些东西更适合女性。

And then you can demote all those other things culturally and say, Yeah, those are kind of fit for women.

柏拉图并不相信这一点。

Plato didn't believe that.

如果你只有论点，你就不会知道如何用心去理解故事。

If all you've got are arguments, you're not going to know how to be thoughtful with stories.

对。

Right.

那将是一个非常糟糕的境地。

And that's going to be a pretty disastrous place to be.

对。

Right.

让我试着调和这个矛盾。

So let me try to square the circle.

在爱的领域，当你过于阳刚时，你会试图驯服它，也许会用科学解释爱，并认为这就是全部，这正是研讨会所追求的。

In the domain of love, when you're overly masculine, you try to tame it, maybe you give a scientific explanation of love and think that's the end all be all, that's what the symposia is to.

或者你可能会解释爱如何让人成为更好的战士。

Or maybe you give an account about how love makes people better warriors.

这很阳刚，对吧？

That's quite manly, right?

最滑稽的举动之一。

One of the funniest of the moves.

没有什么比一群恋人的士兵更能打造一支更好的军队了。

Well, there's nothing that would make a better army than bunch of Hairs of lovers.

啊，什么？

Oh, what?

那该有多美好啊。

How wonderful that would be.

是的。

Right.

因此，对所谓女性特质保持开放，或者说不被男性特质所束缚，在爱情中就意味着敞开心扉去感受爱的狂喜——它能让我们略带神圣的疯狂，使我们陷入疯狂。

And so to be open to the, let's say, the feminine or to not be constrained by the masculine, let me that way, in love would be to be open to the ecstasy of love, that the fact that it can make us a bit divinely mad and make it makes it crazy.

而在哲学中，不被男性特质所限制，则意味着让我们对生命的敏感性敞开。

Whereas in philosophy, to not be limited by the masculine means to open us to the sensitivities of life.

对。

Right.

因此，我们不应仅仅受限于分析性、对抗性的论证形式，而应具备对生命的基本敏感性和开放性。

And so that we are not just constrained by the analytical, the agonistic kind of argumentative form, but to have a fundamental sensitivity and openness to life.

这就是柏拉图试图做到的。

So that's what Plato is trying to do.

这就是他试图去男性化的同时在这两个领域之间建立的同构关系。

That's the isomorphism between these two spheres that he's trying to demasculinize.

这样说公平吗？

Is that fair?

是的，我认为是这样。

Yes, I think so.

让我们来谈谈一位对我们两人都很重要的哲学家，尼采。

And to take a philosopher who is important to both of us, Nietzsche.

从这个角度思考尼采很有趣。

Nietzsche's interesting to think about this way.

尼采是一位出色又极具幽默感的过度理性主义批评者。

Nietzsche's a wonderful and wonderfully funny critic of hyper rationalism.

当然，是的。

Of course, yeah.

但在我看来，他也流露出一种对自己是否足够阳刚的焦虑，因此他非常批评女性以及那些不够硬汉气质的事物。

But he also, it seems to me, embeds an anxiety about whether he's sufficiently manly, And so, he's also very critical of women and of things that don't look tough guy enough.

他陷入了一种修辞，你可能会觉得像青铜时代狂人或其他非自愿独身者类型的人会想：‘我这可真是彻底尼采化了。’

He lapses into a rhetoric that you could see somebody like Bronze Age Pervert or other incel type voices thinking, well, I'm really going all Nietzschean here.

他们这样想是错的，因为他们对尼采的理解太过肤浅。

They're wrong about that because they have such a small understanding of Nietzsche.

但可以说，尼采本人确实有时会陷入这种修辞。

But it is fair to say that Nietzsche himself, I think, lapses into that kind of rhetoric.

而柏拉图并不会陷入这种修辞，或者至少他极少这样做，因为他对自己所达成的东西充满自信。

And Plato doesn't lapse into that kind of rhetoric, or at least he does it very little, because he's so confident in what he's achieving.

我认为尼采总是给人一种有点不安全感的印象。

I think Nietzsche always comes across a little bit as a Insecure.

他还在经历青春期呢。

He's still going through a puberty right.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

他还在表现那种硬汉做派。

He's still showing the tough guy ish.

是的，罗伯特·皮平在我们讨论尼采时说过，尼采必须不断声明‘我如此伟大’，这本身就暴露了他的焦虑。

Yeah, that's what Robert Pippin, when we discussed Nietzsche, he says, by the fact that Nietzsche had to state, I am so great, you can tell the kind of anxiety There's thing.

柏拉图在对话录里从不会说：‘我的书将被阅读两千年。’

Plato never says in the dialogues, and then my books will be read for And 2,000 they have.

对。

Yes.

在古代作家中，唯一完整流传至今、没有散佚的作者。

And the only author in antiquity that has come down to us completely unlost.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

那么我们继续谈谈现代女性面临的问题。

So let's move on to talk about the issues facing modern women.

你提到其中一个问题是企业的商业化以及职业方面的困境。

You described one of them, which is this corporatization and the issue with career.

但让我感到极其恐惧的数据是，美国18至24岁的女性中有5%到10%在OnlyFans上售卖自己的裸照，帮帮我，让我理解一下，因为几百年来的女性赋权运动，怎么会最终演变成女性被大规模商品化？

But I mean, the stat that is incredibly frightening to me is five to ten percent of women in America aged 18 to 24 are on OnlyFans, like like selling pictures of their like naked like like, help me help me understand this because like how does the culmination of three hundred years, two hundred years of women empowerment end in the mass commodification of It women?

这是一件可怕的事。

Is a terrible thing.

当然，它被包装成一种赋权。

And of course it's presented as empowerment.

被当作创业精神。

As entrepreneurial.

我们是创业者，是内容创作者。

We're entrepreneurs, we're content creators.

是的。

Yeah.

渴望被看见、被吸引是一种自然且健康的需求。

The desire to be visible and to be attractive is a natural and wholesome desire.

但每一个自然且健康的需求，一旦被片面化，缺乏与其他欲望的平衡或整合，就容易走向堕落。

But every natural and wholesome desire is susceptible of corruption when it's made partial and it's not balanced or integrated with other desires.

是什么让当代如此多的女性愿意以性欲被观看的方式现身，明明知道她们只是被当作自慰工具？

What is it that attracts enough contemporary women to want to be seen with erotic desire because they know they're being used as a masturbation tool.

哦，有意思，你读到的是

Oh interesting, you read

一种对认可的渴望。

that as a desire for recognition.

我以为更多是出于金钱原因。

I thought it was more like monetary.

我认为，乔纳森，这并不是一个经济体系。

I don't think Jonathan that It's an economic system.

人们会赚钱。

People make money.

看，这是真的。

See, it's true.

有些人赚钱，而金钱始终是相关的。

Some people make money and money's always relevant.

但我认为这并不能驱动这种现象。

But I don't think that could drive the phenomenon.

你看，在有办法变现之前，就已经有很多女性在网上发布自己的色情图片或视频了。

Look, there are plenty of women who put pornographic images or videos of themselves online before there was a way to monetize it.

对，有意思。

Right, interesting.

我认为是那种被看见的体验。

I think it's that felt visibility.

这是一种非常强烈的东西，在人类身上，我们可能会极度渴望被认可，而我喜欢把这种渴望视为OnlyFans现象的核心。

That's a very potent thing in a We human could go all haggle on recognition and things I like would want to go back to that as the center of the OnlyFans phenomenon.

我认为，这种对可见性的渴望以多种形式表现出来。

I think it's that desire for visibility that takes many different forms.

有时候，你能给学生最好的礼物不是表扬，而是关注。

Sometimes the greatest gift you can give a student, it's never praise, it's visibility.

就是这种

It's that

你

you,

当你想到‘我的老师真的对我的所作所为感兴趣’时，那一刻在一个人的智性成长中至关重要，因为它为你指明了方向。

that moment when you think, My teacher is actually interested in what I'm doing, that is a formative moment in the life of an intellectual because it gives you somewhere to go.

当有人向你表明‘你对我有吸引力’时，这在一段关系的发展中是非常重要的时刻。

And that moment when somebody reveals to you, You're attractive to me, That's a very important moment in a growing relationship.

人们可以想要快感，而不必依赖某种结构。

And one can want the pleasure without the structure.

是的

Yeah.

没有结构

Without the structure.

这就是我对OnlyFans的看法。

That's the way I think of the OnlyFans thing.

有意思。

Interesting.

我想到

I think of

它是一种极度孤独的状态。

it as intensely lonely.

因此，我们可以将其视为对非自愿独身者运动的反面，以及男性渴望被认可的脆弱性的体现，对吧？

And therefore we can read that as almost the counterpoint to the incel movement and the weakness of the male urge to show that recognition, right?

这可能是男性在现实生活中无法表达身体吸引力所导致的，从而造成这种认可的匮乏？

It might be read as the natural consequence of men not being able to reveal their physical attraction in real life, causing this sort of starvation of recognition?

我

I

我也这么想。

think so.

多年来，我经常和学生一起阅读简·奥斯汀的小说。

I've read Jane Austen novels with students a lot over the years.

当我跟学生谈论简·奥斯汀时，他们总是对舞会的重要性感到惊讶。

And when I talk to students about Jane Austen, one of the things they're always struck by is how important dances or balls are.

这些舞会之所以重要，是因为大家都明白，舞会是为男女双方提供一个安全、不失面子地表达性吸引力的场合。

And they're important because everybody knows that balls are constructed to be places where safely, without loss of face, men and women can express sexual interest in each other.

简·奥斯汀并不愚蠢，她知道舞蹈具有性意味。

Jane Austen wasn't stupid, she knew dancing is sexual.

但当然，这种表达被提升了，并指向了更深远的意义。

But of course it's elevated and it points forward somewhere.

在大学里，学生们常常表示希望有更多有监护人在场的活动。

All over universities students will say they wish there were more chaperoned events.

他们不会使用完全相同的语言。

They won't use exactly that language.

以前有过叫作联谊会的活动，对吧？

There used to be events called mixers, right?

现在除了带着极大讽刺之外，没人再这么叫了。

Nobody calls them that anymore except with great irony.

但人们，无论是男性还是女性，都希望有一些地方，能让人们表达对某人的吸引力，以及接受这种兴趣，而不至于如此接近性化的层面。

But people sort of wish, men and women wish, there were places where to express an interest in somebody as attractive and to accept that interest weren't so close to being sexualized.

如果他约我喝咖啡，这是否意味着，如果我答应了，我就等于同意和他发生性关系？

If he asks me out for coffee, does that mean that if I say yes, I'm accepting having sexual intercourse with him?

难怪男人不敢邀请女人约会，因为这背后承载着如此沉重的情感负担。

No wonder a man doesn't ask a woman out on a date if that's emotional load it carries.

但成年人已经放弃了，推卸了道德责任，没有为年轻男女创造一个可以表达好感而不被立即追问‘但那界限在哪里？’的空间。

But adults have given up, have abdicated, the moral responsibility of creating a space where young men and women can express interests without their being all on them the question of, Yeah, but what's the limit on that?

如果‘我想和你出去’这句话被理解为‘我期待和你上床’，在这样的条件下，年轻人不可能有好的结果。

If saying, I would like to go out with you is heard as I expect to sleep with you, you can't expect happy results for young people under those conditions.

我们怎么把牙膏重新弄回管子里？

How do we get that toothpaste back in the tube?

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定该怎么把牙膏重新弄回管子里，但正因如此，和学生一起阅读旧时的文本常常对他们很有帮助——我不是说他们听了就完全明白了，但至少现在他们能为自己的问题找到一个合适的名称。

And I'm not sure how to get that toothpaste back in the tube, but this is why reading older things with students is often very helpful to them, Because I don't say that then they've figured it out, but at least now they have a name to put on what the issue is for themselves.

没错，他们知道还有别的选择。

Right, and they know that there's an alternative.

他们确实知道。

They do.

这非常有趣，因为你开篇强调的不是我们爱情生活的现实如何被削弱，而是我们表达爱情的语言如何被削弱。

Really interesting because you begin the book by highlighting not how the reality of our love life has been so diminished, but how the language of our love life has been so diminished.

跟我们说说这个吧。

Tell us about that.

对。

Yeah.

在古希腊语中，性行为的词是阿佛洛狄忒的獠牙（Aphrodisia）的复数形式，这是一个美妙而优雅的词。

In ancient Greek the word for the conjugal act is just a plural form of the fangs of Aphrodite Aphrodisia, which is a wonderful, beautiful word.

神圣的。

Divine.

是的。

Yes.

因为对于情欲，我们总觉得它来自外部，它让我们感到升华，但同时也充满危险。

Because there's something that we feel as coming from outside about erotic desire, and something that we feel is elevating about it, but dangerous.

没有危险，你就无法升华。

You don't get to ascend without danger.

情欲生活就是如此。

That's the way erotic life is.

因此，古希腊语中根本没有我们今天所称的‘性’或‘性欲’的基本词汇。

So the very basic vocabulary of what we would call sex or sexuality doesn't exist in ancient Greek.

这个词汇直到十九世纪下半叶才在英语中出现。

It doesn't exist in English until the second half of the nineteenth century.

用'性'这个词来指代性行为，这是人类历史和英语中非常近期的创新。

The use of the word sex to mean sexual activity, that's a very recent innovation in human life and in English, in the English language.

因此，那些听起来对性生活及其成就颇为得体的英语表达，其实都源自公共卫生的语言。

So that the language that sounds sort of polite about erotic life and its achievement, its accomplishment in English, It all comes from the language of public health.

这是一种医学化的

It's a medicalized

语言。

language.

性交。

Sexual intercourse.

性交。

Sexual intercourse.

现在说到马尔萨斯，对吧？

Now Malthus, right?

是的，是的，这可以追溯到马尔萨斯关于人口的论文，那是一篇关于避孕的论文。

Yeah, yeah, it goes back to Malthus' essay on population, which is an essay on contraception.

对。

Right.

对主张的担忧。

A worry about claim.

是的，这个词就源自这里。

Yes, that's where it comes from.

当他使用‘性交’这个短语时，他显然指的是实际的肉体行为——那种导致怀孕的行为，但在他写作的时代，‘性交’这个词完全是一个委婉语，它原本只是指大学校园里那种让男女彼此认识的社交活动。

When he used the phrase sexual intercourse, and he's obviously pointing toward actual physical intercourse, the act that makes babies, it was a complete euphemism because sexual intercourse, when he wrote it, would have just meant what a mixer used to be at a college campus, somewhere where men and women got to know each other.

但他当然默认了这种‘混合’的完成。

But of course he was assuming the completion of the mixing.

但很快，这个词就开始被用作一个特定术语。

But very quickly then, the term starts to be used as a specific term.

它被医学化了。

It's medicalized.

它成为公共卫生话语的一部分。

It becomes part of a public health discourse.

性交这个词，听起来根本不像你想要的东西。

Sexual intercourse, it doesn't even sound like anything you would want.

就像，不，我其实并不想进行性交。

It's like, no, I don't really want to have sexual intercourse.

我想我还是去洗个牙吧。

I think I'll go have my teeth cleaned.

它来自语言的同一部分。

It's from the same part of language.

几乎没有情侣会说‘你愿意进行性交吗？’这句话，除非是在讽刺的时刻。

And very few lovers, except in moments of, again, irony, would say to each other the phrase, Would you like to have sexual intercourse?

所以我们的情感和愿望常常因为语言的贫乏而受到限制。

That's just So we're very impoverished because our language often is the portal to our feelings too and our aspirations.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

而古代语言，无论是厄洛斯、阿佛洛狄忒，还是罗马化的维纳斯，都带有某种神圣的意味。

Whereas the the ancient languages, whether it's Eros or Aphrodite or the Romanized Venus Venus are all kind of divine kind of connotations.

如今，‘情色’就是色情。

Today, erotic is pornography.

确实如此。

That's what it is.

春药就像一种药物，而性病则是一种疾病。

Aphrodisiac is like a drug and venereal is a disease.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们对爱的表达方式也已经被玷污了。

And so we've even the language of love has has been corrupted.

我明白这一点。

I see that.

但你怎么解释，在现代社会中，爱也被提升到了前所未有的高度呢？

But how do you reconcile that with the idea that in modernity love has also been elevated to an extraordinary degree?

比如，将爱情视为婚姻的构成性要素，这在以前并不存在，像卢梭那个时代就不是这样。

Whether it's, for example, making love a constitutive quality of marriage, which was not the case like before, let's say, Rousseau or something like that.

或者，如今爱情似乎是唯一仍被接受的崇高情感，而不是像荣耀之类的东西。

Or just how love seems to be the only elevated feeling today that is still acceptable rather than, say, glory or something like that.

那么，你如何理解一方面语言的贫乏，另一方面爱情作为文化理想的兴起呢？

So how do you make sense of, on one hand, of the linguistic poverty, but on the other hand, the rise of love as a cultural ideal?

我认为人们夸大了爱情作为婚姻组成部分的现代独特性。

I think people overstate the distinctiveness of love as a part of marriage being very specifically quite modern.

有意思。

Interesting.

我认为，在那些我们称之为包办婚姻的文化中，人们也总是会相爱。

I think that cultures where there are what we call arranged marriages, people always fell in love.

只是当时处于适婚年龄的年轻人在寻找伴侣时，其过程比我们现在所经历的具有更多社会层面的复杂性。

It's just that the mediation of the young people who are of marriageable age finding themselves had a lot more social thickness in it than it does for us.

而这可以采取许多不同的形式。

And that can take lots of different forms.

当你读简·奥斯汀的作品时，年长的成年人在安排舞会时心里都清楚自己在做什么。

When you read Jane Austen, old adults kind of know what they're setting up when they set up balls.

他们是在安排人们相互认识，看看是否适合成为婚姻伴侣。

They are setting people up to see if they want to become marriage partners.

所以这些也属于相当安排式的婚姻。

So those are pretty arranged marriages, too.

只是不像现在某些文化中那样那么直白罢了。

It's just it's not as explicit as it is in some other cultures now, still.

所以，我认为人们一直期望深厚的个人情感和承诺是婚姻关系的一部分。

So, I think that people always expected a profound personal affection and commitment to be a part of what the marital relationship was.

因此，我对此略有保留。

So I push back a bit

你这是在讲一个明智的叙事。

On on the wise narrative.

对你来说，这更像是一个衰落的叙事。

For you it's more of a decline narrative.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

我不想抛弃这个观念。

I don't want to throw away the notion.

我认为你说得对，男女之间的婚姻不能仅仅聚焦于建立一个成功的家庭。

I think you're right that the notion that a marriage between a man and woman can't just be focused on having a successful household.

他们两人之间必须维持并深化一种个人关系。

There's a personal relationship between the two of them that has to be sustained and deepened.

我认为，对于现代夫妻来说，这个问题比过去更重要。

I think that that is a more important question for modern couples than it used to be.

但我怀疑，已婚夫妇一直以来都拥有很多这样的关系。

But I suspect that married couples always had a lot of that.

这是一种自然的变化，是一种重点的转变。

It's a natural thing It's a change

重点的转变。

of emphasis.

这是一种变化。

It is a change.

这并不是全新的。

It's not brand new.

它是。

It's.

是的，我明白。

Yeah, I see.

对。

Yes.

因此，我想对您提出的提升联盟、婚姻、亲密关系以及生育的观点提出批评。

So I want to critique your suggestion of elevating union, marriage, intimacy, as well as reproduction.

对。

Yeah.

但从这些传统内部来看，尤其是柏拉图传统，有三点批评。

But internally from these these two traditions, tradition, the platonic tradition, three critiques.

第一个是，正如你提到的，柏拉图将肉体繁衍视为最低层次的。

The first one is, as you mentioned, Plato puts physical reproduction as the lowest.

是的。

Yes.

尽管你可能会说，养育孩子是一种精神上的繁衍，就像在《会饮篇》中灌输美德一样。

And even though you could say, well, raising a kid is spiritual reproduction, inculcating virtues in the symposium itself.

而第俄提玛——那位向苏格拉底授课的女祭司——所举的例子包括建立国家、共同治理国家，对吧？

And this is brought up the examples that Diotima, the sort of priestess who's lecturing Socrates that she gives is like founding states, managing states together, right?

写诗则是最高形式。

Writing poetry as the highest forms.

对吧？

Right?

因此，哲学上的繁衍要高于肉体上的繁衍。

So philosophical reproduction is just higher than than than than physical reproduction.

是的。

Yes.

第二个批评来自天主教传统，据我所知，在梵蒂冈第二届大公会议之前，贞洁被视为更高的理想。

The second critique comes from the Catholic tradition, which is that up until Vatican II, I believe, chastity was the higher ideal.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至高于一位虔诚的已婚男性或已婚女性。

Even over an observant, married man or married woman.

第三个问题是，我看不到你所强调的婚姻的任何重要性，因为我认为柏拉图并不认为结合、亲密或二人成为一体是如此重要。

And the third one is I don't see any of the importance of marriage that you're picking up in Plato because I don't think Plato sees union or intimacy or joining two to one flesh as as that important.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且我认为你可以从柏拉图对情爱关系安排的灵活性中看出这一点，比如在《法律篇》中，他主张一夫一妻制。

And I think you can see this in how flexible the arrangements, the erotic arrangements are in Plato, where in the laws, it's monogamy.

但在《理想国》中，却是一种共同共享的

But in the Republic, it's like a communal shared kind

婚姻形式。

of marriage.

苏格拉底，你知道，他有个妻子叫珊提佩，但他仍然在城里追逐年轻美貌的人，陷入爱河。

And Socrates, you know, has a wife, Xanthopee, but he's still chasing young beauties around town falling in love.

不过他确实有孩子。

So he does have children, though.

是的，他确实有孩子。

Yeah, he does have children.

对。

Yeah.

那你如何回应这一点呢？

So so how do you respond to that?

这些类型的担忧？

These kinds of concerns?

我认为柏拉图并没有完全做到。

I don't think Plato got all the way.

每一篇对话都各不相同。

Each dialogue is interestingly different.

因此，法律中婚姻的核心地位，确实依赖于夫妻之间的个人忠诚，这是法律中的一个重要方面。

So certainly the laws, the centrality of marriage that really depends on a kind of personal fidelity between the spouses, that's an important aspect of the laws.

但这并不是柏拉图在此处阐述的主要焦点。

But it's not a primary focus of Plato's exposition there.

《理想国》中，婚姻作为个人关系被明显地消除了，而被转化为一种公民关系。

The Republic famously, in effect, eliminates marriage as a personal relationship and makes it a civic relationship.

现在我们将进入关于如何解读这一点的所有争论。

And now we would get into all of the debates about how we read that.

这是否意味着一种认真的实践？

Is that meant to be a serious practice?

它是否意在表明：如果你要彻底走这条路，认为统一是政治共同体最重要的东西，那么统一最大的障碍就是你必须消除它。

Is it meant to be a look, if you're going to go all the way down this road and say that unity is the most important thing for a political community, the greatest obstacle to unity is You've got to get rid of it.

这就是代价。

Here's the cost.

实际上更深入地阅读一下

Actually read that more

作为一种批判。

As a critique.

作为一种批判，意思是：如果哲学就是这样，那么它最终会带你走向这里。

As a critique, as saying, If this is what philosophy is, this is where it will take you in the end.

所以我认为，《理想国》中的这种描述本身就对哲学构成了挑战。

So I think there's a challenge to philosophy already embedded in that account in the Republic.

作为

As

唯一一种男性化的理性哲学。

being the only masculine rational kind of philosophy.

如果我们追求纯粹的理性、纯粹的统一，这就是它将导向的结果。

If we're going for pure reason, pure unity, this is where it's going

带你去的地方。

to take you.

有趣的是

The Interesting

《理想国》确实谈到了爱欲，但它对爱欲的讨论方式更像《会饮篇》中前三位发言者那样。

Republic does talk about eros, but it talks about eros much more like those first three speakers in the symposium did.

我认为柏拉图是希望我们注意到这一点，但这涉及一场关于《理想国》以及我们如何从中学习的复杂对话。

And I think Plato meant us to see that, But that's a complex conversation about the republic and about how one learns from it.

当我提到关于妇女和儿童公有制的讨论——这实际上是摧毁了私人家庭——我认为读者应当意识到，我内心深处也有一种力量会把我引向那个方向。

And I'm tipping the republic in the direction of the symposium when I say, I think that that discussion of the community of women and children, which is really the destruction of the personal family, I think that readers are meant to see there's something in me that would take me there.

对。

Right.

我需要审视，如果它真会把我引向那里，我必须加以反思。

And I need to examine what if it would take me there, I need to examine.

这件事的合理性。

The validity of that thing.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

但你如何回应这样的反对意见：在柏拉图那里，结合至少是次要的，如果它算得上是一个目标的话，相对于哲学的提升和升华？

But how do you respond to the objection that in Plato it seems like a union is at least secondary, if it's a goal at all, to the elevation and rise to philosophy?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，这在《会饮篇》中体现为关于统一性的伟大演讲，也是最接近我们对婚姻理想的看法的那一篇

Yeah, so the way it works itself out in a symposium, the great speech on unity and the one that sounds the most like our own ideals about what marriage would be

是

is

是阿里斯托芬的。在七篇演讲中，它是中间的一篇。

Aristophanes' And of the seven speeches, it's the middle one.

它是第四篇。

It's the fourth one.

在苏格拉底转述第俄提玛的演讲之后，阿里斯托芬本应回应批评，但他无法做到，因为一群狂饮作乐的人突然闯了进来。

And after Socrates reports Diatima's speech, Aristophanes is going to respond to the critique, but he can't because a crazy bunch of revelers burst in.

关于这一点有很多有趣的内容。

Lots of neat stuff about that.

但柏拉图在问你，阿里斯托芬会如何回应？

But Plato was asking you, what would Aristophanes' response have been?

因为这里提出的基本问题是：我们从根本上追求的是结合，还是追求善？

Because the fundamental issue that's raised is whether we fundamentally seek union or whether we fundamentally seek the good.

这两者之间是否存在张力？

And is there a tension between those two things?

对。

Right.

你能回到阿里斯托芬的演讲，保留他关于我们在缺乏性爱完整感时多么破碎的精彩论述，并将其融入哲学追求吗？

Could you go back to Aristophanes' speech, preserve Aristophanes' really marvelous discussion of how broken we feel without the wholeness achieved in erotic connection, could you retrieve that for philosophical aspiration?

还是说，结合与一种智性化的繁衍之间存在根本性的张力？

Or is there just a fundamental tension between unity and a kind of intellectualized procreativity?

我认为柏拉图把这个问题留给了读者去思考。

I think Plato left that as an exercise for the reader.

我认为他自己从未完全实现过这一点。

I don't think he ever fully achieved it myself.

所以，当我看到一些天主教对统一与生育力的理解时，它们并不是婚姻中两个独立的目标，而是相互诠释的目标。

So, when I see, some specifically Catholic understandings of how unity and procreativity, those aren't just two independent goals of marriage, they're mutually interpreting goals.

婚姻所特有的那种结合，不同于友谊般的统一。

The specific type of union that marital union is, is different from just the unity of friendship.

对。

Right.

因为它内在地包含了生育能力。

Because it has built into it that procreative potency.

因此，我认为自己作为一名天主教思想家在处理这个问题时，是在试图完成柏拉图的事业，而不是否定它。

So I think of myself working as a Catholic thinker on this as trying to complete Plato's project, not rejecting it.

这些都是不同的关系。

Those are different relationships.

所以，我不是说我在柏拉图那里找到的一切都已经

So I don't say that everything I find in Plato But already

你说这是潜在的，还是柏拉图在给你一种模仿？

you're saying it's latent or Plato is giving you an imitation I

我觉得是的。

think so.

我认为，用非常传统的术语来说，柏拉图已经走到了自然理性所能达到的极限。

I think Plato gets, to use a very traditional vocabulary here, Plato gets as far as natural reason can get.

我明白了。

I see.

所以这就是为什么我认为，到目前为止你所提出的观点面临的最大挑战，是天主教内部的一种观点，即贞洁——即不结合、不生育、完全献身于上帝的生活——比完全遵从的婚姻生活更为崇高。

So this is why I think the most difficult challenge to what you can post so far must be the internal Catholic suggestion that chastity, right, the non union, non procreative life devoted solely to God is higher than the perfectly, you know, like observant married life.

你如何调和这一点？

How do you reconcile that?

是的，让我先说，我认为你非常正确，自从梵蒂冈第二届大公会议以来，许多天主教徒都希望退缩。

Yes, and let me start by saying that I think you're quite right that since Vatican II a lot of Catholics have wanted to back off of.

那种认为神职独身或女性发愿独身在重要意义上比发愿婚姻生活更属灵的观点。

The notion that the life of priestly celibacy or of vowed celibacy for women is in an important way spiritually higher than the life of vowed marriage.

现在，誓言婚姻也是一种超自然的关系。

Now, vowed marriage, that's also a supernatural relationship.

它是在誓言之下的。

It's under vows.

这使得这一主张更加有力，

Which makes the claim even stronger,

确实让它更有力了。

It does make it stronger.

我想指出这一点的核心方面。

And I would point to a really central aspect of this.

从纯粹自然的角度来看，誓言独身的生活相比誓言婚姻的生活具有某种牺牲性。

There is something sacrificial from a merely natural point of view about the life of vowed celibacy compared to the life of vowed marriage.

它确实具有某种牺牲性。

There is something sacrificial about it.

这种牺牲只有在誓言独身生活中实现了某种更高的灵性善时才有意义。

That sacrifice can only make sense if there is some higher spiritual good that is achieved and pursued in that life of vowed celibacy.

我认为传统一直希望强调这一点，以便神父在某种程度上成为已婚夫妇的典范，因为独身生活展现出一种更大的意愿，愿意为了一个超自然的目的而承担从自然角度看是一种牺牲的行为。

I think the tradition has always wanted to focus on that so that the priest becomes, in a way, an exemplar for married couples because celibacy shows an even greater willingness to take on what is from a natural point of view a sacrifice for a supernatural end.

作为誓言婚姻的天主教婚姻也具有超自然的维度，需要承担一些仅凭自然婚姻不会有的牺牲。

Catholic marriage as vowed marriage also has a supernatural dimension that will need to take on sacrifices that a merely natural marriage would not.

因此，这就是我想探讨的方向。

So that's the direction that I would go.

不过，我并不指望能让每一位读者、每一位学生或每一次对话都接受这一观点。

Now, I wouldn't expect to carry every reader, every student, every conversation to that same view.

部分原因是我并不指望能成功说服所有人认同我对婚姻的看法。

Partly because I wouldn't expect to be successful in convincing everybody of my view of marriage.

对，对。

Right, right.

甚至这都是一种延伸。

Even is a stretch.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个批评，这是我对你建议年轻人更早结婚这一观点的更个人化的而非紧迫的批评。

Another critique, this is a more personal rather than imminent critique I have of your proposal of getting married earlier than think.

比如，更早要孩子。

Like, have children earlier.

这是你给年轻人的建议。

This is your advice to young people.

是的。

Yes.

我想我对此有些犹豫，部分是因为我是男性而非女性，单身状态提供了一种个人探索的机会，以及一种在关系中可能难以实现或受限的转向能力。

I guess my own hesitancy towards that is it's also easier because I'm a man and not a woman is that being single offers a kind of personal exploration and the kind of ability to pivot that is difficult or that may be limited in a relationship.

你在书中有一句精彩的话：只有孩子才会认为每一个限制都是对自由的压抑。

You had this wonderful line in your book that you said, only a child thinks that every limitation is a restriction on one's freedom.

而我对这句话的回应是：只有傻瓜才会认为每一个限制、每一个约束都是对自由的提升。

And my response to that would be and only a fool would think that every limits, every restriction is an enhancement of freedom.

是的。

Yes.

所以我给你一个非常实际的例子。

So there are I'll give you a very practical one.

我现在正在和一位非常漂亮的天主教女孩约会。

I'm dating a very beautiful Catholic girl now.

我仍在寻找自我，而她告诉我，她只会嫁给天主教徒，你知道吗？

I'm still kind of seeking myself my own And she's told me I will only marry a Catholic You know?

所以，如果我要和她结婚，这件事是我真诚探索的生活中极其重要的一部分。

And so if I were to marry her, that one thing is incredibly important part of my life that I'm in all earnestness exploring.

我必须在那里做出非常坚定的承诺。

I would have to make a very strong commitment there.

这只是一个例子，对吧？

And that's just one example, right?

你住在哪里，取决于具体的人，还有政治立场。

Where you live, the depending on the person, the political commitments.

那么，在找到可以结合的人之前，让个体稍微自由发展一点，难道真的没什么可说的吗？

So is there nothing to be said about letting the individual blossom a bit before finding someone to be joined with?

不，这没什么可说的

No, there's nothing to be

Jonathan，这一点确实没什么可说的。

said for that, Jonathan.

让我这么说吧：你作为个体的本质，本质上是由你建立伴侣关系的能力所定义的。

Let me put it this way: what you are as an individual is essentially described by your power to couple.

因此，我非常怀疑那种认为‘我应该先发展一段时间，再成为一对’的想法，因为这可能会限制我。它肯定会影响你的发展，但我无法将这种发展视为一种束缚。

And so I'm very skeptical about thinking that, Well, should develop for a while before I become a couple because that might constrict my It will definitely influence your development, But I can't see that development as a constriction.

当然，我们不妨从

Surely you see Okay, let's start with

如果你娶了一个错的女人，那就会是。

the If you married the wrong woman it would be.

但你知道吗？

But you know what?

通过找到对的女性，你会把自己变成对的男性。

You'll make yourself the right man by finding the right woman.

成长是相互的，而且这种成长总是带来更深层次的结合。

The growth is mutual and the growth is always a greater union as well.

我明白了，没错。

I see, right.

所以这个观点并不是极端地认为任何结合都会明显加速成长，而是说最好的结合比最好的个人成长更能促进发展。

So the claim is not the extreme claim that any union will obviously accelerate the It's that the best union will accelerate the growth than the best individual.

这才是我想表达的观点。

That's the kind of claim.

是的，我也这么想。

Yes, think so.

但我不想过分强调‘最好’这个词，因为

But I don't want to emphasize the word best too As

如果这变成了一种市场行为的话。

if it's a market thing.

这听起来像是

That sounds like

一个阻碍性的词，对吧？

a blocking word, doesn't it?

我明白了。

I see.

最好。

Best.

所以如果你的朋友说，是啊，但她真的是最适合你的人吗？

So if one of your friends say, yeah, but is she the best one for you?

哦，最好，哦，好吧，她对我来说已经足够好了。

Oh, best, oh, well, she's a good enough one for me.

而你们会在婚姻中共同成长。

And you grow into being married.

你看，我认为有时候跟年轻女性谈论她们感兴趣的男性时，一个常见的错误是：当她们描述理想中的男人时，几乎就是在描述一个已婚二十年、养育了三个孩子的男人。

See, one mistake I think sometimes happens with young women when you talk to them about men they're interested in is when they describe the ideal man, they pretty much describe a guy who's been married for twenty years and raised three children.

嗯，他们一开始不会是那样的，明白吗？

Well, they're not gonna start out like that, okay?

但他们会逐渐成长为那样，你也会同样如此。

But they'll grow into that, as you will grow into that, too.

我对婚姻更有信心，因为对我们大多数人来说，婚姻是道德教育的背景。

I have more confidence in marriage as for most of us, marriage is the context of moral pedagogy.

正是在这里，我们会成长，婚姻会以最直接、最专注的方式教会我们成长。

That's where we will grow and it will teach us to grow most directly and in the most focused way.

这不是放慢脚步，也不是安于现状，而是加速，不是。

It's not slowing down, it's not settling down, it's speeding No.

对，加速。

Up right

但前提是，要找到对的人。

But sorry, conditional on finding the right person.

是的，但有很多合适的人。

Yes, but there are a lot of right people.

你看，这就是为什么我想对所谓的‘最好的事’提出质疑。

See, this is why I want to push back on the best thing.

你看，这在我看来像是一种回避行为。

See, that sounds like an avoidance behavior to me.

对，对。

Right, right.

我是不是，她真的是对的人吗？

Am I, Like, is she really the right?

这几乎是个借口。

It's an excuse almost.

那我问你一个问题。

So let me ask you this.

显然，对，我们不希望设定的限制太狭窄，以至于非得是那种像《指环王》里的天使或精灵之类的人才行。

Obviously, right, we don't want to set the constraints too narrow such that it has to be this, you know, angel or gladrial or something like that from Lord of

指环王。

the Rings.

但我们也绝不希望设定的限制太宽泛，以至于任何我们觉得自己可能结婚的人都可以接受。

But we also don't want to set the constraints too wide such that anyone we could see ourselves married with.

这在经验上根本站不住脚。

That is empirically just not true.

所以我想问的是，既然我们并不期待嫁给或娶到一个拥有二十年经验的完美伴侣，那么年轻人在选择一个有潜力但尚未成熟的人时，应该寻找什么？

So I guess my question is, given that we aren't being married to the perfect wife or perfect husband who has had twenty years of experience, what should a young person look for when they are selecting someone with potential but not actuality?

是的。

Yeah.

以一个年轻男子为例，他发现自己爱上了一位天主教徒年轻女性。

Take the case of a young man who finds he's falling in love with a young woman who's a Catholic.

对她来说，当她想象自己成为已婚女性时，她设想的是与一位天主教徒结婚，这意味着她也希望对方是天主教徒。

And for her, when she sees herself as a married woman, she sees herself married as a Catholic, which means she wants a Catholic spouse too.

这种深层渴望最重要的方面，在自然层面上，而在超自然层面上，她希望找到一个能彼此帮助通往天堂、并养育孩子也走向天堂的人。

The most important aspect of that deep desire is at the natural level, the most important desire at the supernatural level is she wants someone where you'll help each other get to heaven and raise children who will get to heaven.

这样说出来，有点老套，对吧？

Put that way, it's a little corny, right?

深刻的人性

Deeply human

在这一层面，她希望知道你不会离开。

level, she wants to know you won't leave.

对，我明白了。

Right, I see.

是婚姻，是婚姻的承诺，是的。

It's the marriage, the commitment of marriage, Yeah.

她希望知道，当你许下誓言时，你有道德上的自主性去真正践行‘无论顺境逆境，直到死亡将我们分离’。

She wants to know that when you say the vows, you have the moral agency to mean them for better, for worse, till death.

我并不是说，只有天主教徒才能真正许下这些誓言，但我确实认为，如果你发现自己正成为那个渴望真正践行这些誓言的人，你会觉得天主教的许多方面，正是对这种身份的圆满实现。

Now, I don't say that the only men or women who can mean those vows are Catholic, but I do say that if you find yourself becoming the man who wants to mean those vows, you will find a lot of aspects of being a Catholic attractive as the fulfillment of that identity.

所以，如果我要成为你的导师，和你探讨这个问题，这些就是我们会讨论的内容。

So if I were going to have a mentor relationship to you to talk about that, these would be things we would talk about.

现在，我们进入了非常复杂的问题：我究竟需要相信多少呢？

And now we get into very complicated questions here about, well, how much do I have to believe it?

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

因为作为一名哲学家，我当然不是为了能娶到一个女孩才想相信复活，不是出于工具性目的，对吧。

Because as a philosopher, surely I don't want to believe in the resurrection because I want to get married to a girl, instrumentally, Yeah,

我对雪莉的观点提出反驳。

I push back on Shirley.

这很有趣。

Think Interesting.

某些宗教观念对你开始变得有意义的一个原因，是你现在能够看到，用约翰·亨利·纽曼的话说，它们所融入的整个体系。

That one reason certain religious things start to make sense for you is that you can see now, so to speak, the system, to use John Henry Newman's word, the system that they fit into.

这是一个活生生的体系。

And that's a lived system.

它不仅仅是一个智力上的体系。

That's not just an intellectual system.

正是那位女性在塑造着这个体系。

That woman is what is creating that system.

所以，因为某种爱让你开始相信某些事情，这并不反哲学，尽管它反某种单一的哲学方式。

So to start to believe certain things because they make sense out of the kind of love you have for a particular woman, that's not anti philosophical, though it's anti one way philosophy In

去看到其他方式，你提醒了我不要在哲学上太男性化，要对生活的现实需求保持开放，对生活的需求保持敏感。

to see other ways, you're reminding me to not be too masculine in my philosophy, to be open to how life's demands, to be sensitive to life's demands.

当然，这是一种男性气质的表现。

Of course, that is one way of being masculine.

那是那些愤世嫉俗的男性所呈现的一面，是的。

That's a side that the incels Yeah.

但让我再次对此提出不同看法。

But again, let me push back again on this.

看，这让你更快乐。

Look, making you happier.

对于这些宗教来说，形而上的问题显然是首要的，对吧？

Like, surely for these religions, the metaphysical question is primary, right?

那就是，耶稣真的从十字架上复活了吗？

Which is, did Jesus rise from the cross?

比如，我们会轮回吗？

Like, do we reincarnate?

佛陀是否找到了通往涅槃的道路？

Did Buddha find the path to nirvana?

显然，这一定是核心问题，对吧？

Like surely that must be the primary.

我不是说我们能直接回答这些根本的形而上学问题，但毫无疑问，它们才是最重要的，对吧？

And I'm not saying we can directly answer those primary metaphysical questions, but surely that is what is significant, right?

是的。

Yeah.

你刚才描述的方式，我认为这在哲学中相当常见，你把形而上学当作基础。

The way you've just described things, and I think this is quite common in philosophy, you've made metaphysics a foundation.

我不认为形而上学是基础。

I don't see metaphysics as foundational.

我认为形而上学是顶点。

I see metaphysics as a capstone.

所以我认为你的形而上学是由你其他信念部分的压力所维持的。

So I think your metaphysics is held in place by the pressures of all the other parts of your belief.

我不认为它是你构建其他一切的基石，这很有趣，但并非如此。

I don't think it's a foundation stone on which you build up Interesting, all of the other right.

因此，我把形而上学看作是攀登的顶点，而不是攀登的起点。

So I think of metaphysics as the top of the ascent rather than as the base of the ascent.

显然，关于这些内容还有很多可说的；作为老师，我有时会避开某些特定类型的托马斯主义者。

Obviously there's a lot more to say about all of that, as a teacher I try to deflect students, sometimes students who are a certain kind of Thomist, for example.

其他学生则是某种亚里士多德主义者，他们觉得：‘好了，我有亚里士多德了，这下安全了。’

Other students are certain kinds of Aristotelians, and they feel like, No, I've got Aristotle, now I'm safe.

我不认为形而上学真的是这样运作的。

I don't think that's really the way metaphysics works.

我甚至不认为亚里士多德和托马斯本人真的是这样运作的。

I don't even think that's the way Aristotle and Thomas really work.

所以你所描述的是，他们必须把形而上学搞对。

So what you're describing is they have to get the metaphysics right.

我认为这是对的，但我不认为它是一个基础。

I think that's true, but I don't think it's true as a foundation.

我认为我们在宗教信仰中总是会存在疑虑和不完整性。

I think that we're always going to have, doubts, incompleteness in our religious beliefs.

教宗本笃十六世在仍名为约瑟夫·拉青格时曾说过一句非常重要的话：基督徒的核心不是一套信念，而是一个人。

Pope Benedict, back when he was still Joseph Ratzinger, said something really important, that the heart of a Christian is not a set of beliefs, it's a person.

而这个人就是基督。

And that person is Christ.

他试图让人们重新调整自己的智性追求。

He was trying to get people to reorient their own sense of intellectual aspiration.

他主要对神学家们说，如果你把追求的重心从一套信念体系，转向一种圆满的爱之升华，那么它看起来就会不同。

He's talking primarily to fellow theologians when he says that, if you reorganize your sense of aspiration from something like a system of beliefs to something like a completed ascent of love, it's going to look different.

它看起来会不同。

It's going to look different.

有意思。

Interesting.

所以信仰更像是一种陷入热恋的过程，而不是一个理性的体系？

So faith is less like a rational system rather than like the process of falling in erotic love?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

关于陷入爱河，有很多深刻的思考。

And there's a lot of thoughtfulness about falling in love.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Right.

这并不是一件无思无虑的事。

That is not a thoughtless thing.

这与一时的迷恋不同，真正的成年恋爱需要深思熟虑，需要对话的空间，但

That's one of the difference from just quick rush of infatuation and the actual adult falling in love and the thoughtfulness that goes into that and a place of conversation in that But

它并不是基于思考的

it's not grounded on thought

不仅仅是这样，确实不是。

alone, It's not.

不是。

No.

思考具有升华的力量。

Thought has a power of ascent.

在这方面，我是一个非常典型的柏拉图主义者。

In this way, I am very much a Platonist.

思考既是驱动的，也是被驱动的。

Thought is motivating and it's motivated.

我认为，我们无法通过采取一种中立立场来消除这一点，即仅仅试图让事实或论点正确排列。

And I think that we can't eliminate that by having a kind of neutral stance where we're just trying to get the facts lined up right or the arguments lined up right.

这就是为什么在我的书中，约翰·亨利·纽曼和爱默生很早就出现了，因为他们都承担起了这样的责任：不，我的思考是个人化的。

That's why in my book John Henry Newman comes up so early Emerson because they both took on the burden of saying, No, my thought is personal.

是的，我觉得现在是个好时机，来谈谈我探索道路上一直困扰我的一个问题。

Yeah, I think this is a good place to bring up something that's been troubling me on my kind of seeking path.

然后我们再慢慢回到爱这个主题。

And then we're going to weave our way back into love.

我会谈谈这个宗教问题。

I'll talk about this religious problem.

这与现代怀疑论无关，而我认为纽曼所应对并成功应对的正是这种怀疑论。

And it has to do not with modern skepticism, which is what I what I take Newman to to to be addressing and to have successfully addressed.

对。

Right.

哪个

Which

我们无法完全理性地理解信仰的作用。

is we can't fully rationally know what is the role of faith.

我相信他们已经准备好了，我随时准备迈出那一步。

I'm convinced they're already like, I'm ready to take a leap.

但我的问题是，这个飞跃究竟指向何方。

But my question is leap wither.

我在探索道路上所面对的怀疑，是古老的怀疑主义，是那些性别歧视的经验主义者所持有的怀疑，即等价性。

And the kind of skepticism that I'm wrestling with in my seeking path is ancient skepticism, the skepticism of sexist empiricists, namely equivalence.

是的。

Yeah.

并不是我不觉得你所说的有说服力和令人信服。

That it's not that I don't find what you say compelling and convincing.

而是存在其他同样有说服力和令人信服的观点，直接与你刚才的主张相悖。

It's that there are other compelling and convincing that are directly against the claim that you just made.

而我无法区分哪一种才是正确的。

And I have no way of differentiating.

因此，关于你提出将宗教视为更少像科学实验、而更像一种爱的实践——心灵追随理性但以理性为根基——我的回应是：其他宗教也持同样的观点。

And so my response to you about treating religion as less like a scientific exercise, but as an exercise in love, where your heart follows and grounded on reason nonetheless, is simply to say, and the other faiths say the same.

比如伊斯兰教的伟大神学家们，像阿布·哈米德·加扎利这样的人，他们极其深思熟虑，敞开心扉，最终走向了安拉。

And there are the great theologians of let's say Islam, the Agazalis of the world who are incredibly thoughtful and he opened his heart and it led to Allah.