514: Ryan Banta on Evolving Speed Training Systems

另一个女孩是300米跨栏的校纪录保持者。

The other girl was a school record holder in the 300 hurdles.

另一个女孩是100米短跑的校纪录保持者。

The other girl was a school record holder in the 100 meter dash.

我还有一位朋友，是队里女生们的同伴，她跑步只是勉强能完成，我们就尽量减少她跑的里程，在接力赛里让其他女生配合她，把她藏在后面。

And then I had, like, a friend that could just, like, you know, on the team of with the girls, their friend, who could just, like, serviceably get around the track, and we minimize the amount of running that she was doing where the girls all kinda built around her to hide her in relays.

你懂的。

You know?

她也没问题。

And she was okay.

你懂的。

You know?

但那确实是我们最初处理这种情况的方式。

But that was kind of the the way that we kinda handled that initially.

我们的田径比赛基本都安排在周中。

Our track meets were basically in the week.

你懂的。

You know?

所以每到周五，有时候周四和周五连着，根本没时间训练。

So it was every Friday, sometimes Thursday, Friday, so rarely had any time to train.

你刚才提到了速度周。

Now you had mentioned a speed week.

如果我们把时间拉到二十五年后的今天，和2003年第一个赛季相比，我那时候是2002年的助理教练。

So if we wanna go to the complete opposite end of where we're at now in terms of twenty five years later from that first season in 2003, and I was the assistant in 2002.

速度周就是一整周。

A speed week is a week.

说白了，这是一种训练主题。

Like, it's a theme.

所以到了那一周，就得安排一些特定的内容。

So then what has to happen is on that particular week, there are certain things that need to take place.

比如周一就是加速和最高速度训练日。

So Monday would be a acceleration and maximum velocity day.

星期二对我来说是节奏训练日，但节奏会慢很多，距离也短，而且恢复时间非常短。

Tuesday would be a tempo day for me, but that tempo would be a lot slower, a lot shorter with very short recoveries.

明白吗？

Okay?

星期三是主动恢复日，会做跨栏灵活性训练、普拉提、站立式四乘二交接棒、心理准备、录像分析，类似这些内容。

Wednesday would be a active recovery day with hurdle mobility, pilates, standing, four by two handoffs, mental preparation, video work, stuff like that.

星期四是速度储备日。

Thursday is a speed reserve day.

对吧？

Right?

训练内容包括一百二十米、一百五十米、一百八十米这些距离。

And so that would be anything from one twenties, one fifties, one eighties.

大部分都是跑动中开始，而且每次之间都有很长的恢复时间。

Most of those are on the fly, and they have massive recoveries.

你知道的。

You know?

星期五是中等强度的节奏日。

Friday is a temp tempo day.

也许我们会做些75%强度的150米，主要是为了激活身体，或者采用递增强度的方式。

Maybe we do some, like, seventy five percent one fifties just to stimulate the body or what we do is progression.

比如前50米跑70%强度，中间50米80%，最后一段50米提升到90%。

So we go 50 at 70%, 50 at 80%, and the last 50 of that rep at 90%.

我们可能会做三组这样的训练，加上几次起跑练习和加速跑，但都不会做到力竭。

We might do three of them, do some run throughs, do some block starts, but nothing exhaustive.

如果有接力交接训练，最多做三到四组，就足够了。

Handoffs, when we have handoffs, three to four reps maximum at an exchange, that's it.

不管交接效果是好是坏，都到此为止。

Whether they're good, bad, terrific, and we stop there.

到了星期六，如果我们没有比赛——现在我们通常星期六都有比赛——就会进行模拟比赛。

And then Saturday, if we do not have a competition, which we do mostly have Saturday competitions now, we would race model.

模拟比赛的内容会根据每个人的主要项目来具体安排。

And that race model would be whatever it would need to be for their primary event.

如果我们把加速训练单独作为一个单元，不结合最高速度训练，那我们可能会把周四的速度储备日改成纯粹的最高速度日。

Now when we do acceleration work as its own unit without maximum velocity, then we would probably replace Thursday's speed reserve day with a maximum velocity day exclusively.

对吧？

Right?

加速日我们会做负重雪橇、穿负重背心，或者不带任何装备的三点起跑。

And and so, like, the acceleration day would be where we do heavy sled, weighted vest, three point without anything on.

接着做从凳子上直接跳下冲刺的落点跑，最后再用一个后抛药球的动作，接着全力加速冲出去。

Then we would do drop in runs where we literally drop off of a bench and sprint out, and then we would follow the final thing up with, like, a medicine ball push or throw behind and accelerate out.

这就是我们的加速日训练内容。

And that would be like our acceleration day.

然后我们会把这套安排放在周一。

And then we would place that on a Monday.

另外，如果不是特定主题周，不管主题是什么，我都会尽量安排连续两天训练。

Now the other thing that I've evolved to do if it's not the themed weeks or whatever, doesn't matter what the theme is, I try to go back to back.

之所以这么做，是因为到了州锦标赛的时候，比赛就是连续两天进行的。

And the reason why we try to go back to back is that when we get to the state championship, the state championship is back to back.

在密苏里州，情况就是这样。

That's the way it is in Missouri.

所以我的运动员必须做好准备，应对那种不是‘高强度-轻松-高强度-轻松’这样循环的训练刺激。

So my athletes need to be prepared to handle some sort of stimulus where we're not going hard, easy, hard, easy, hard, easy.

我们的安排是：高强度、中等、轻松、极高强度、中等、极高强度，然后休息。

We go hard, medium, easy, intense, medium, intense, off.

这种安排是为了让身体逐渐适应连续两天的负荷，第二天还能扛得住，因为我们的目标就是为州锦标赛那样的情况做好准备。

And those type of days are set up to try to give the body a chance to get used to the back to back, coming back the next day and still being able to tolerate that because our goal is often is to be able to be prepared for a state championship situation.

我见过太多队伍和运动员，周五表现得特别好，到了周六却彻底垮掉，因为他们从没经历过这种刺激，根本没准备好。

I cannot tell you how many teams and how many athletes I've seen that look really good on a Friday, but they are just completely trashed by Saturday because their body has never seen that type of stimulus, and so they're not prepared.

而我们今天和昨天参加的这场比赛，本身就是为期两天的赛事，目的之一就是验证我们训练方法的有效性。这场比赛安排在赛季中期，正好给我们留出时间调整：如果发现某个方法行不通，或者某个新项目不适合继续，或者训练刺激需要大幅调整，我们还有足够时间去改，哪怕只是让队员换个项目，也能挽救整个赛季。

And then again, the meet that we have literally today and yesterday is a two day meet purely to also test proof of concept of the training that we are doing, and it's in smack dab in the middle of the year because it gives us a chance to then go, well, that is definitely not working, or this is now needed, and we have enough time within that window even for the kids who are in the mile and everything down to make some adjustments where we can save the season, whether we're just taking a new event on or the event we experimented with is not gonna be something we're gonna continue to do, or to dramatically change something about the stimulus and work that we're doing within our training.

是的，你刚才说的，我再确认一下，你提到的那个训练模板，是以前用过的模式。

Yeah, so you said that, that, just to reiterate, that is the, you mentioned that is the old, that was, that template you laid out, that was the older model that

我们以前就是这么做的。

we used.

第一个是

Very first one was

对，就是你之前说的那个旧模式。

the Yeah, old yeah.

对，就是你以前用的那个，明白了。

Yeah, what you used, okay.

对，我想提几点事。

Yeah, so I just wanted to mention a couple things.

一个是，我知道你提到过连续训练的问题，但我并不想把话题扯得太专业、太细。

One was, yeah, I know there's, you mentioned with the back to back, I don't necessarily want this to be like 100%, like, track nuanced conversation with some of them.

当然。

Sure.

我也知道大家对这个看法不太一样。

I just know there's different opinions about that as well.

所以有意思的是，你明显倾向于今天就直接上连续训练。

So, it's interesting that you're you know, you definitely land on that, hey, let's it's gonna be today's back to back.

咱们先准备一下这方面的安排。

Let's prep that side of things.

我想提一下年中赛，因为我觉得这几乎是普遍做法，我以前在大学游泳队工作时，就经常看到这种情况。

I wanted to mention the mid seat meet, the mid season meet, just because I think that's almost universal, whether it's, I saw this in swimming a lot when I was working in college swimming.

那些运动员通常九月、十月就开始训练，很早就投入了，然后到了某个时候会有一场重要的比赛。

There would always be, I mean, those athletes started training in September, October, you know, pretty early, and then they would have a big meet.

他们的正式锦标赛在三月，但每年十二月都会有一场大型比赛，大家会穿上比赛服，虽然不一定剃毛，但有时也会为这场十二月的比赛做准备。

Their championships was March, but they would always have a big meet where they suited up, and I don't think they shave, but sometimes maybe for this big December meet.

每次都是这样，没错。

And that was always, yeah, same thing.

就像一次检查，确认一下状态。

Was like a check check engine, check mark.

就是想确保我们做的事情没问题。

Like, let's make sure what we're doing.

但这件事挺有意思的。

But it was interesting.

我曾经听过一个故事。

I remember hearing a story one time.

是另一所学校的事。

It was a different school.

一个特别出色的学校，我就不点名了，但绝对是知名项目，成绩斐然。

A really good I won't say which school, but like a really well known program, tons of success.

他们的教练年纪比较大，对体能训练计划有很大影响力。

And their coach was kind of an older coach, and he had a lot of influence over the Strength and Conditioning program.

有一年，他说：‘今年咱们就练跳深蹲。’

And one year, he's like, Hey, we're gonna do jump squats this year.

我觉得这决定也有点随意。

I think it was somewhat random too.

于是整个秋天他们主要就练跳深蹲，结果到了赛季中期比赛时，大家的神经系统都彻底透支了。

So, they did primarily jump squats all fall, and I guess everyone's nervous system was just cashed out for that mid season meet.

之后他们就停了这个训练，但事情其实变得特别复杂，对吧？

And then they got rid of that, and then, I mean, it gets so multifactorial, right?

跳跃这种训练，其实就看具体情况嘛。

Like, jumps, it's just context, you know?

这里面涉及的因素太多了，游泳也是，离心训练也是，问题很复杂。

There's so many pieces with that, and swimmers too, and eccentric, you know, there's just a lot.

但他们后来取消了这些训练，结果在三月左右拿了全美大学锦标赛冠军。

But then they remove that, you know, and then they won the NCAA championship, like in March or whatever.

对我来说，我觉得游泳比赛的容错空间正在越来越小。

And just to me, but I think that the margin of error also is getting tighter in swimming.

现在田径界有个词叫‘时间通胀’，成绩都变得快得多、竞争也更激烈了，游泳也是，尤其是短池项目，所以我不禁想，是不是因为这些变化，比赛的容错余地变得更小了。

There's, you know, trackflation is a term where all these times are so much faster and more deep in nature, swimming, you're seeing that too, short course especially, so I also wonder if there's just less margin for error with all that.

不过话说回来，大学田径项目也是，现在比赛安排得越来越早，十二月都有比赛了。我知道 offseason 有个叫四重赛的活动，它不光是个让人期待的亮点，还能帮你评估状态，确认自己是不是在进步，是不是在往前走。

But yeah, think that stuff is, or even too, college track programs, and, you know, it seems like meets, there's more meets earlier, and meets in December, but I know the quadrathon, like in the off season too, is kind of almost an alternative competition to, one, just look forward to, but also test where you're at, make sure you're improving, make sure the needle's moving forward.

对，我觉得这些阶段性检查确实特别重要。

Yeah, think that, yeah, those those check marks are always really important.

完全同意，不过我不想跑题，但我真觉得游泳的训练量常常过头了。

Absolutely, and I would, you know, not to go off on a tangent, but very much I feel like swimming is overvolumed all the time.

我之前有幸和一个人聊过，他是哪的来着？

I had opportunity to talk to the guy who is from what is it?

拉脱维亚或者立陶宛吧，现在他为美国队工作，不过他本职一直是做游泳相关工作的。

Latvia or Lithuania, but he now works for Team USA, but his big background is in swimming.

然后我突然反应过来，哇，

And I realized, wow.

我完全没准备好聊这个话题。

I'm not ready for this conversation.

你懂的？

You know?

因为我是这么理解他的想法的，嘿。

Because I because the way I interpreted what he thought was, hey.

就像，这种超级快的比赛配速游泳就是未来。

Like, this super fast race pace swimming is the future.

他跟我说过的一件事就是，他说，对。

And one of the things he said to me is he's like, yeah.

但他们职业生涯的长度却在缩短，明明打破了世界纪录，训练时间反而更短了，还容易过度疲劳。

But the longevity of their careers, they're they're breaking these world records, and but yet they're not swimming as long, and they're getting burnt out.

我就在想，是他们真的撑不住了，还是我们平时的轮换安排根本不够？

And I'm like, well, are they, or are we just not rotating things around enough?

你提到做跳深蹲，大家都累得不行，但也许正是这种训练环节打下了基础，才让最后能爆发出来。

Like, you mentioned doing the jump squats, everybody's trashed, but, like, that component in a block might have created a baseline or a basis of things that then allowed for this immense opportunity at the end.

这其实是一种很随意的训练周期安排。

It was this haphazard periodization Yeah.

算是个选择吧。

Choice.

对吧？

Right?

所以每次跟他聊，他显然在游泳方面比我懂多了，但作为局外人，我总觉得，我们游泳界很多做法都是基于一个很简单的逻辑：池子里人多，每条道都挤满了，要是让大家好好休息，旁边的人不就冷得发抖了吗？我们根本不知道该怎么看待这个问题。

And so, like, for me, when I when I talk to him, and he's obviously way brighter than I am about swimming, but I just as an outside observer, I'm like, golly, we I feel like a lot of swimming is built on well, we have this many people in the pool, and we have this many people swimming in a lane, so we can't do big recoveries because these people would just be sitting on the side of the pool getting cold, and we just don't know how to feel about that.

这事儿挺怪的，可大家都只想往前冲，那就只能继续这么干了。

It's just a weird thing, and everybody wants to just keep going, so we're just gonna do that.

但问题是，如果你在训练里加了刹车，那比赛的时候谁会这么游啊？那为什么训练从来不像比赛呢？

And it's like, well, yeah, but if you built in brakes, like, you don't swim a competition like that, so why doesn't your swim training ever look like swim competition?

这事儿真让我特别不爽。

Like, that bothers the hell out of me.

当他跟我说，他们打破了世界纪录，但职业生涯都没多久时，

And when he told me, well, you know, they're breaking the world record, but, you know, their careers are not as long.

我第一反应是，别急着说‘但是’，我觉得将来大家总会找到延长运动寿命的方法。

And I'm like, well, first of all, put yet behind that because I assume people are gonna figure out how to do longevity.

其次，你刚才说的，他们打破了世界纪录，这句话再重复一遍。

And then secondly, repeat what you just said, which is they broke the world record.

假如我职业生涯十五年，一直平平无奇，从来没进过国家队，也没破过世界纪录，

Well, like, I mean, if I have a career where I'm middling around for fifteen years, right, and I've never get an international, you know, team, or, you know, I never break the world record, or I'm the world record holder.

那我宁愿当个世界纪录保持者，哪怕职业生涯短一点，也比十五年碌碌无为强。

Like, I feel like I would rather be the world record holder than have a career that's ten to fifteen years long and never really accomplish the goal.

所以，我和你都清楚，训练是有代价的。

So, you know, I I think we know you and I know this for sure, but, like, training has consequences.

对。

Mhmm.

你把东西混合的顺序，会带来不同的结果。

The order in which you put things into the mix has consequences.

你知道的。

You know?

所以我们得特别小心，得想想，到底什么时候把所有这些材料加进去，才能做出最好的蛋糕？

And so, like, we need to be very careful and and look at, like, well, when do you wanna have the best cake, you know, when you put all these items together?

你知道的。

You know?

你希望什么时候达到最佳状态？

When do you want that?

我觉得这非常重要。

I think it's very important.

那些不喜欢连续训练的人，确实也是这么想的。

And, you know, people that, like, don't like the back to back, it's like, yeah.

但联赛不还是连续安排比赛吗？

But conference, right, isn't most power five conferences still back to back?

对吧？

Right?

明白了。

Okay.

所以，除非是波士顿那种跨区域的五公里赛，不然比赛末段的时间安排通常都会按联赛来定。

So, like, to to get the time at the end is usually gonna show up at conference unless you're doing an out of cross country five k at Boston.

对吧？

Right?

你得有能力应付这种情况。

Like, you're you're gonna need to be able to do that.

以前NBA球员打篮球，赛季要打82场，虽然现在场次少了，但那时候真是连轴转，一场接一场。

If you're a basketball player in the NBA and you're playing, well, they don't play a lot of games anymore, but back when they used to have to play 82 games to be worth it, you know, that's a lot of competition over and over and over again.

运动本身就应该决定训练的方式。

That the sport itself should derive and drive training.

你知道的。

You know?

是的，不过游泳这方面还挺有意思的。

Yeah, but it is interesting with swimming.

我觉得现在好多了。

Think it's gotten a lot better.

我跟一些教练聊过八九十年代运动员的训练内容，简直疯狂得离谱。

I've talked with some coaches about workouts and sets that athletes are doing in the 80s and 90s, and just absolute insanity.

我觉得现在游泳训练的改进，部分原因是更多教练采用了更科学的周期化训练模式。

I think part of the swimflation now is I think across a broader spectrum of coaches, there's a better periodization model.

但训练量还是大得多。

It's still a lot more.

我之前说过，这有点难说，但你在水里练的量，大概是田径的四倍。

I I was it's kind of a rough thing, but I think the volume you get in the water is about four times the respective you would for track.

因为游泳的强度没那么高，你知道的。

Because it's not as intense, you know?

这很讲究技术。

It's technical.

就是不一样。

It's just different.

你需要一个强大的有氧引擎，除非你是短距离冲刺选手，否则这点毫无疑问。

There's a big, just massive aerobic engine that, you know, unless you're a short sprinter, you know, that is pretty valid.

就连100米自由泳——这是第二短的冲刺项目——其强度也相当于田径的400米。

Even the 100 free, which is the second shortest sprint, is equivalent to the 400 in track.

明白吗？

Know?

所以就算你是短跑选手，训练里还是带着400米那种感觉。

So it's like, even if you're a sprinter, there's still like 400 vibes and stuff like that.

让我觉得挺奇怪的是，每个项目都有自己的行话，我刚开始看游泳训练计划时，完全搞不懂那些‘百米组’，还配上70秒左右的间隔。

And one of the brain trips for me that I just don't think, you know, each sport has its own little world nomenclature, is I'm trying to understand swim workouts, and it's like, you got these hundreds on, like, 70 or so.

我可能说得不太准，但比如说‘10个百米，每组70秒’，意思就是你游完55秒，就剩15秒休息，然后马上接着下一轮。

I'm probably butchering it, but, you got, you know, 10 hundreds on 70, which so basically, it's like you kinda if you come in in fifty five, you get fifteen seconds to rest, then you go again or whatever.

你能想象吗？要是田径也这样，比如你得在固定时间内完成多少圈，这倒是个挺有意思整人的方式，但显然现实不是这样的，田径就是纯粹比谁跑得快，休息时间都是统一的。

It's like, could you imagine, like, something like that per track, like, hey, you got, I don't know, it'd kind of an interesting way to mess with people, but I mean, obviously, it doesn't work that way, you know, it's just faster track times, and the rest is standardized, so.

不过说实话，现在游泳成绩提升得真快，比如卡姆·麦考伊刚打破了50米世界纪录，他的训练量其实很低，但质量极高。你提到的那些极简训练法，像美国的节奏训练法，确实也出过一些成绩，但还没到让人眼前一亮、觉得这就是终极方案的地步。

But yeah, I think a lot of swim getting faster these days, actually, even like Cam McEvoy just set the world record in the 50, and he is a very low volume, high quality, but even, you you mentioned, to your point, some of these more minimalist programs, like US RPT, US Race Paced Training, was having some success, but it wasn't monumental, like, Oh, this is the thing.

在我看来，从一个非游泳教练的角度看，那些方法还是太初级了。

And because I think it was still, from what I saw that in my non swim coach opinion, it was still pretty rudimentary.

强度容易过头，跟耐力训练又没平衡好，不管你用什么方式提升耐力。

Easy to overdo intensity, Lack of balance with capacity, however you are getting that.

所以就是，如果你每次都拼尽全力，那耐力和表现力就全乱了。

So it's just like, yeah, if you just rip it every time, there's capacity and expression.

对我来说，最关键的就是：什么时候该收着点，什么时候该练耐力，什么时候该全力爆发，这些节奏得搞清楚。

To me, that's just the big thing is where are you gonna withhold, where are gonna build capacity now, when are gonna express versus, yeah.

没错，而且说实话，别介意，我觉得游泳圈一直有种心态，觉得自己特别科学，特别懂科学。

Right, and I feel like, and no offense, swim community, but I feel like swim community carries an era of, well, we're really science based, and we really know science.

真的是这样吗？

It's like, are you?

因为参加游泳比赛的运动员数量远少于田径项目。

Because the amount of athletes that are competing in swimming is a lot less than track and field.

对吧？

Right?

人们哪儿都能跑步。

Like, people can run all over planet.

所以你总能不断测试训练方法的有效性，到处都有人在用那些天赋异禀、天生优秀的运动员做实验。

So, again, you could test proof of concept with training all the time, and there's all these people running experiments with uber elite, magnificently designed by god people.

对吧？

Right?

而游泳就没那么容易搞那些不靠谱的、纯靠经验的说法了——毕竟田径的容错空间更大，游泳却非得有泳池不可。

And there's a lot less opportunity to do some hokey, what I would say, anecdotal stuff that again, there's less margin for error in track and field than there probably is in swimming because swimming requires a pool.

游泳还得花大量时间，全家得配合着送孩子去泳池。

Swimming requires a lot of time and dedication from the family to get them to the pool.

游泳还得花钱。

Swimming requires money.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以，总的来说，这项运动中顶尖运动员的培养路径比田径要狭窄得多，主要是因为游泳本身存在门槛——不是有人故意设限，而是游泳这项运动的客观条件造成的。

And so, like, the overall element of the actual peak athlete for that sport is probably much more truncated or bottlenecked than it is in track and field because of just the gatekeeping, if you will, not that anybody's intentionally doing it, but just of the situation of swimming.

对吧？

Right?

所以，像那种超高强度的训练，确实如此。

And so, like, yeah, ultra whatever that yeah.

竞速游泳，不管他们怎么叫，我觉得问题在于大家没意识到，这种训练其实挺有价值的。

Race, speed, swimming, whatever they call that, I think is the problem of not understanding, like, well, that's a good thing to do.

没错。

Mhmm.

但你之前做的那些其他训练也有它的作用，不管是对能量系统、心理韧性、恢复能力，还是比赛本身的需求来说，都是必要的。

But also the other stuff that you've been doing has its place in the training because either the energy systems require it, or the mental fortitude requires it, or the recovery requires it, or the event itself requires it.

对吧？

Right?

但其他那些训练也得做，每一天都该有它的目标。

But then the other stuff has to happen, and that it's like every day should have a purpose.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得很多人在训练上出问题，就是没搞清楚这一点。

And I think that's where people screw stuff up when it comes to training.

我觉得游泳在这方面其实可以做得更好。

And then I believe that, like, swimming could do better in that regard.

我这么说并不是说田径就不重要。

And I I and I say that not like track and field is invaluable.

我只是觉得，我们田径界做概念验证的频率比游泳高多了，毕竟想上跑道的人多的是，根本没人拦着你，你说是吧？

I'm just saying that I feel like we run a lot of proof of concept more frequently than probably swimming does, because there's a lot more athletes out there that don't have to gatekeep to get on a track, per se, You you

我觉得吧，我以前接触的游泳群体确实比较有限，但在我眼里，田径的训练体系似乎更成熟一些，而且田径的训练历史也更久，游泳现在正在慢慢跟上。

know, I would say, you know, the time I spent in swimming, which was just a certain population, but to me it actually seemed that track was a little bit more, and I think the training history with behind track is a little bit longer, and I think swimming is starting to work into that.

不过我觉得，游泳在科学性方面以前确实差一点，我接触过的那些游泳教练，很少听到他们用什么科学术语。

But I would say swimming was almost a little bit less like sci I didn't hear a lot of, like, scientific terminology necessarily out of the swim, the breadth of swim coaches that I work with.

那时候更多是那种感觉：我们知道这些训练量是合适的，这就是我们的标准模式。

It was a little bit more, hey, we know these volumes are appropriate, you know, and, like, this is our template.

但对我来说，不管是志愿者帮忙，还是我接触的那些人，都觉得游泳本身有点特别——毕竟是在水里，而且我们大多数人从小也不是天天游泳长大的，除非你住在太平洋岛上，那种情况又不一样，挺有意思的，但大多数人真不是这么过来的。

But to me, it seemed and even volunteer assistance and all these people I talked to, it seemed like swimming by itself, because it is the water, and because we don't grow up, most of us, unless you're on a Pacific island, which is a little bit different story and interesting to think about, but like, most of us don't grow up just swimming.

我们不会游着去上课。

We don't swim to class.

也不会游着去街对面的邻居家里。

You know, we don't swim to our neighbor's house across the street.

我们每天花在游泳上的时间其实很少，正因如此，教练更注重技术和指导，再加上水是三维的，还有水的阻力，这让我意识到，很多游泳教练不得不成为应对限制的艺术大师，擅长教学和运动学习。

We don't, you know, it's something that you do a very small amount of your day, and because of that, you know, there's a lot more, coaching and technique, and there's also three dimensions, and there's water tension, and it struck me that a lot of swim coaches become, by necessity, more artists of constraints, and teaching and motor learning.

当然，我不是说每个游泳教练都这么厉害，但我见过的那些教练，确实在这方面特别出色。

And of course, you're gonna get within that, not to say every swim coach is amazing at that, but the swim coaches I observed were awesome at it.

我从中学到的很多东西，后来都用到了我的田径训练里，尤其是关于如何在限制中训练，以及语言的运用。

I had learned a lot that I actually plugged into my track and field experience through the art of running constraints, and language.

我不敢说全是‘指令语言’，但至少在运动员技术掌握的语言表达上，我收获特别多。

I wouldn't even say queuing language all the time, but just the language of technical acquisition with athletes, and I learned a lot from that.

不过你知道，我之前还接触过一个叫欧内斯特的人，我连他姓什么都说不上来。

But you know, I've also have, was like Ernest, I can't even say his last name, or something.

他写了一本超厚的书，我觉得比瑞安的《短跑者手册》还要厚得多。

He's got this massive, I think it's even bigger than The Sprinter's Compendium, Ryan, like massive book.

那可能是我唯一一本一直留着的书。

It's probably the one book I had that's

等等，等等。

made Hold on, hold on.

对，确实有过这样的情况，没错。

Yeah, it was, so that, you know, there's definitely been the, yeah.

就是这个，没错，就是这么回事。

That's it, yeah, that is it.

我明白了。

I got it.

我们能

Can we

把那本书和你的书并排放在一起，哪一本内容更全面？

have a side by side of that, and your book, which one is more expansive?

但那本书确实完全是科学导向的，没得说。

But that book is, yeah, science to a T, for sure.

我想，如果我当初从那个层面去思考游泳，大概就会是那样。

I think if I would've just thought about swimming on that level, it'd be that.

不过话说回来，我一直觉得，你训练和比赛所用的方式，才是真正让你有所收获的关键。

So, anyways, just that being said, I always think it's interesting the medium by which you train and compete, the thing you really glean out of that.

我其实挺想多花点时间去摔跤馆的。

Something I actually would like to do is spend more time in the wrestling room.

我经常看到有人练摔跤，又是后空翻，又是膝撞，又是抓握动作。

I see a lot of wrestling where they're doing backflips, and knee drives, and grab.

我就想，要是真想掌握地面技术，这种能力，还是得去那种环境里多待待。

I'm like, man, if you wanna learn groundwork, and that ability, it's like, I wanna spend time in that environment.

所以，说了这么多，我真想赶紧聊聊速度训练的演变，怕时间不够，到时候又得匆匆忙忙问你关键点。

So, yeah, just all that being said, I really wanna get to the evolution of the speed program though, just because I don't wanna run out of time, and like, oh, quick, tell me this thing.

是的，这原本是你的训练方式，而且你提到过克莱德·哈特的影响，但说实话，听到你说这些的时候，我第一反应是：这跟反复跑600米、600、400、300米这种训练方式差得太远了。那种训练确实有它的特点，我也一直在想，贝勒大学当年用克莱德·哈特这套方法，确实取得了不少成绩。

Yeah, so that was your initial, and I mean, seems like, you mentioned like, Clyde Hart influence, but honestly, you tell me that around, I'm like, you know, that's a far cry from running like repeat 600s, and you know, a 600, 400, 300, you know, like that's, I mean, that stuff is, and I do wonder sometimes, you know, I mean, Baylor, obviously it's, I will say it is like, Baylor had a lot of success with that Clyde Hart stuff.

你得考虑文化背景、训练环境和准备方式，还有当时去那里的运动员是什么样的。

You you think about culture, and set and setting, and preparation, and what kind of athletes were going there.

说实话，有时候我甚至觉得，这个播客里值得我自问的一个问题是：如果能选三个历史上最值得观摩的训练环境，亲眼看看他们是怎么练的、结果如何，我会选哪三个。

Know, honestly, almost sometimes I feel like a good question for myself around this podcast would be like, if you could sit in three training environments throughout history to learn from, and watch, and observe, and see how things shook out.

说实话，我真希望自己能亲身体验一下，毕竟我不会用那种方式带高中生，但当时他们是怎么做到的呢？

You know, I would actually like to have been there myself, you know, just because, I don't know, I wouldn't train high schoolers like that, but how did it work for them, right?

我觉得这一点特别有意思。

And I do find that interesting.

不过得说明一下，我刚才举的那周训练例子，现在在我的体系里就是典型的速度训练周。

Well, and to be clear, when I was giving you the example of that week, that would be a speed week for my program now.

哦。

Oh.

对，没错。

What yeah.

所以呢，

And so, like

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

我刚起步的时候，完全是做四组450米、四组200米。

Definitely definitely when I first started out, it was two four fifties, four two hundreds.

那会儿200米的量大得离谱，还都是节奏跑。

It was crazy amounts of two hundreds on a tempo.

周三还得再来点更狠的训练。

And then even Wednesday, we would do something else really hard.

比如要么是速度耐力日，要么是专项耐力日，跑两组600米之类的，就这些了。

Like, it would be a speed it would be a speed endurance day or not a speed endurance day, special endurance day where we're going, like, you know, two six hundreds and that, but that would be it.

然后回来再反复跑150米，直到累趴下。

And then we'd come back and then do repeat one fifties till we we die.

所以为了说得更清楚一点

So, yeah, it's so just for the clarity of the conversation

好的。

Okay.

我们现在每周就是这么练的。

That would be a week that we would have now.

上星期我队员们就照这个练了一次。

Like, literally, last week, my girls did that.

我们做了一个变体。

We did a variation of that.

因为星期一我们参加了公园大道四校联赛，所以其他训练就得改成速度和加速为主，毕竟之前已经练了太多长距离了。

Because Monday, we had a track meet because it's Parkway Quad, and so then the other things had to be speed and acceleration based because we had done so much long volume.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

明白了，行。

Got it, okay.

你刚才说的时候，我第一反应是，这难道是他以前的训练计划？但听起来更像是他现在的计划。

Because yeah, when you were saying that, it's like, my main thought was, oh, is that his old program, but that sounds like his new program.

等一下，好吧。

Wait a second, okay.

那就是。

That's

所以，你的意思是，确实如此。

So, what you it was more that, yeah.

我记得有一年我带大学短跑队的时候，我们做过两次六百米，我想我之前提过这个事，但我这么安排是因为当时有人施压，觉得中距离和长距离短跑选手应该多练长距离。

Man, I remember there was one year when I was coaching college sprints, and we did the two six hundred's, and know, part of the, I think I've mentioned this story, but part of the reason I did that because there was kind of pressure on me to do more distance for the mid distance, the quarter milers, and long sprinters, and stuff.

但那支队伍根本行不通。

And that group, it just didn't work.

说实话，我们的成绩……挺难的。

Our times, honestly, know, it's hard.

我觉得高强度训练没问题，但运动员的反应完全不对劲，我觉得真正的解决方案可能是在那和我后来用的低强度训练之间找平衡，但我还是得先试一次，才知道这招真不灵。

I think it's good to have difficult workouts, but it's just the response of the athletes was just not, you know, and I think the answer really may have been somewhere between that and what I was doing with more low volume, but it's like I had to run that with that group to see it just not work out so well.

所以我们甚至试过两次八百米。

So, I think we even did two 800s.

我们后来做了两次八百米，接着下一两周又改回两次六百米，天哪，那真是够疯狂的。

I think we did two 800s, then the next week or two weeks, did two 6s, and oh man, that was that was crazy.

不管怎样，我真没法想象用那种高强度训练去带高中生，你说那些最后挺过来的孩子，他们能撑下来，确实挺有意思的。

Anyways, and I couldn't imagine doing that kind of thing, even like you said, those high volumes with the high school kids, and you wonder, it's like how the kids that made it, they made it, and it's interesting with that.

那在过程中，你觉得有哪些关键点呢？

So, what were some keys along the way though?

好吧，你第一年主要搞的是长距离训练那一套。

Okay, so you had that first year, bunch of long distance y stuff.

有没有哪个节点让你突然觉得，嘿，我得换个方法了？

What were some milestones where you're like, Hey, I'm gonna try doing this differently.

有没有特别重大的转折点？还是说只是在2000年代泡论坛，跟查理·弗朗西斯的讨论组交流，慢慢才意识到该调整训练计划？从哪儿开始真正转变的？

Was there any big ones, or was it just sitting on forums in the 2000s, and talking to the Charlie Francis forum, or whatever What were some keys that you're like, hey, I'm gonna make this change in this program, and this is where it's gonna start to shift?

其实我第一次接触到查理·弗朗西斯的论坛时，他们还在批评我没充分认可查理，但说实话，我那时候根本没怎么接触过他的东西。

Well, the introduction to my Charlie Francis Ford was they were criticizing me because I didn't give my due desserts to to Charlie, and the reality was is that I had not really come across Charlie.

我知道这个人，但对他具体的方法一无所知。

I mean, I knew of him, but I didn't know his methods.

我当时没意识到有些东西这么相似，有些却又差别这么大。

I didn't know how similar some things were and how different some things were.

那时候我还不认识德里克·汉森。

You know, I didn't know Derek yet, Hansen.

对吧？

Right?

那是后来的事了。

That comes later.

所以，查理其实影响了我大概十五年，因为我开始想，好吧。

So Charlie actually influenced me probably fifteen years in because I'm like, alright.

我到底该怎么以高速来训练？

How do I actually do this at a high speed?

这到底该是什么样子？

What does that look like?

他那个高低强度交替，也就是所谓的两极系统，现在已经成为我训练中很重要的一部分，尤其是针对那些以大腿肌肉为主的短跑选手，或者恢复能力差、200米成绩不太好的人。

And his whole idea of the high low, right, or the bipolar system is very much now a part of some of the work that I do, especially with, like, quad centric sprinters and people who don't recover or people who maybe don't have a good twenty two.

我的意思是，那些人在离开你后的二十二个小时里，几乎没有得到什么支持。

And what I mean by that is people that don't have a lot of support for their twenty two hours away from you.

明白了。

Got it.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，这种内置的恢复时间特别关键。

And so I feel like that recovery being built in, incredibly important.

我跟孩子们打交道时，一般是这样安排的：周一正常训练，周二节奏跑，周三恢复，周四自己安排，周五赛前准备，周六比赛——就像我们之前说的那样。

And I found that with kids, like, what I do is we start out with a standard of, you know, we've got a good Monday, a tempo Tuesday, a recovery Wednesday, a your, you know, dealer's choice Thursday, pre meet Friday, compete or race model on Saturday like we talked about.

对吧？

Right?

但有些孩子实在撑不住这样的节奏。

But eventually, though, some kids can't handle.

他们必须在中间加一天休息。

They have to have a day in between.

他们的胫骨容易发炎，受伤风险高，很多时候不是因为他们故意吃得太少，而是睡眠质量不好。

Their shins blow up, they're injury prone, and a lot of that has to do with like, that they're not choosing to be calorically deficit, but their sleeping might not be good.

他们的家庭环境也可能不太理想。

Their family situation might not be good.

很多人不知道，在公园中心高中，依然有不少孩子来自市中心，有些社区非常贫困。

What a lot of people don't know is at Parkway Central, we still have kids that come from the inner city, and some of those communities are impoverished.

对吧？

Right?

所以查理的训练体系，还有托尼的，特别适合这些孩子。

And so, like, Charlie's program and then kinda Tony's as well fit really well with those kids.

这其实是一个逐步演变的过程。

And so that was an evolution.

但这已经是我在制定训练计划十五年、甚至十年之后的事了。

But that was, like, fifteen years, ten years into my programming.

幸运的是，现在我和查理的遗孀关系很好。

And, thankfully, Charlie's widow and I are, like, we're good now.

我们经常聊天，各种事儿都聊。

We we talk all the time, you know, and stuff.

但挺有意思的是，他们说：这人根本没提供这个。

But it was funny because they're like, this guy didn't give this.

我就跟他们说：我真的没意识到，我现在的做法其实是慢慢演变来的，受过很多人影响，这些人百分百都受到查理的启发，甚至直接来自那些论坛。

And I'm like, guys, I I didn't know I'm coming I'm coming to this through an evolution of all these different pieces of people who were 100% influenced by Charlie or even specifically the the forums.

迈克·赫斯特提出的观点是，既然这些事都值得做，那为什么不一直坚持做呢？

Mike Hurst, in terms of the idea of if all these things are good to do, why not do all of these things all the time?

对。

Mhmm.

所以这构成了我训练体系中非常关键的一部分。

So that is a very big component of my training.

我可能会把它们安排在不同日子，但它们一直都在，从未缺席。

I might put these things in different days, but they're there and they're ever present.

我们从来不会放弃速度训练。

We never go away from speed training.

我们从不放弃加速训练。

We never go away from acceleration.

我们从不放弃速度储备。

We never go away from speed reserve.

这个理念是我从迈克·赫斯特那里学到的，他曾经在查理·弗朗西斯的论坛上活跃过。

That's an evolution that I got from Mike Hurst, who happened to be on the Charlie Francis forms.

对。

Mhmm.

肖恩·伯里斯让我明白，只要给足休息和合适的激励，你就能又快又持久地跑。

Sean Burris showed me that you can run really fast and long as long as you provide the appropriate amount of rest and the appropriate amount of motivation.

所以我的训练计划里可能还是会保留450米，但恢复必须到位。

And so that's where I would still maybe have a four fifty in my program, but the recovery has to be right.

在恢复期间我们做的不是干坐着不动。

What we do in between in the recovery, it's not necessarily just sitting on our butt.

必须保持一定的活动量，伯里斯教我的关键点是：不是让孩子的身体休息，而是让整个系统得到恢复。

There has to be some kind of motion and activity with that, and that the kids can handle that as and he his big thing that Burris taught me was you don't you don't necessarily rest the kid, but you rest the system.

如果你连续不断地做这些训练，孩子们肯定会垮掉。

So if you're doing these systems back to back to back to back, then you're gonna blow the kids up.

但如果你安排一天专门练耐力，接着是节奏训练，再是主动恢复，之后就能再来一场高强度的中枢神经系统驱动训练。

But if you have a day that's special endurance, followed by tempo, followed by active recovery, then you come back with a high intensity CNS driven workout.

对吧？

Right?

这样我就能把迈克·赫斯特的理念和肖恩的理念结合起来，再根据实际情况调整，核心就是休息。

Then you can do all those things, which allowed me to take Mike Hurst concept and fit it with Sean's concept, which then allowed me to adjust from there, which is the idea of rest.

那如果我采用高低强度交替的训练方式，该怎么安排？

So what do I do if I'm going high low?

所以，为了把所有这些内容都安排进去，我得把训练周期，也就是微周期，延长到两周，这样才能有足够的时间安排这么多休息。

So, like, I have to make sure, which means if I'm trying to get all those things in, I have to expand my training cycle, my microcycle to two weeks so that I can get everything in if I'm adding in that much rest.

比如第一周的星期一和第二周的星期一，目的完全不同，要保持平衡，这也是关键质量体系的一部分。

So like Monday week one in that situation is gonna look different in purpose for Monday week two for the balance, which is part of the critical mass system.

明白了。

Got it.

是的。

Yeah.

我想接着你刚才说的补充一点，我有个关于休息和主动恢复的问题想提一下。

So just to add on what you just said quickly, and I had a question about rest and active rest that I wanted to put forth.

我偶尔也会听到这种说法。

But I hear that occasionally.

我记得兰迪·亨廷顿好像说过类似的话，比如七天周期不够用，就干脆改成十天。

I think I've heard Randy Huntington say something similar, like, a seven day cycle, I didn't get everything I was gonna need, so I made it like a ten day cycle.

大概就是这个意思，不一定原话如此，但意思差不多。我设计训练计划时，经常用十四天为一个周期。

It was something to that tune, it might not be the exact quote, but it was something similar, and so, and I know how I write programs a lot is I do fourteen day cycles a lot.

我并不是因为第一周没练够速度耐力才这么干，故意重复上一周的内容。

I don't over say I'm doing it because I need to, like, didn't get speed endurance the first week, so I'm gonna do the same.

不过有时候我确实也会这么做。

Although sometimes I do do that.

我更喜欢把爬坡训练和这类训练交替安排。

I actually like trading off, like, kinda hill repeats with that kind of stuff a lot of times.

有时候早期的专项耐力训练会安排成爬坡训练，第二周再逐步增加专项耐力的强度。

Sometimes the special endurance in the early is like a hill workout, and then it's the building special endurance the second week.

说来也怪，我其实就是这么做的，没想太多。

I guess, you know, it's funny because I guess I just do it.

很多时候我直接就这么练了，根本没去细想为什么。

Sometimes I just do these things that I don't think about it.

就像你说的，这样能把所有训练内容都安排进去。

It's what you said it is, so you get it all in.

但同时，这也带来了一些新鲜感。

But there's also novelty as well.

我总觉得，如果你连续几周都做23秒的冲刺，或者连续三次全力跑200米、中间完全休息，时间一长，人肯定会需要一点缓冲。

I almost feel like you hit, if you're running doing twenty three second runs, or hitting three 200s really fast with full recovery, You do that so many weeks in a row, and eventually it's just like, you know, you gotta have that little buffer.

当然，因为年轻人心理上很容易变得麻木。

Well, for sure, because kids will get psychologically docile.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

改变不是为了改而改。

The change isn't for change sake.

改变是为了保持孩子的参与感。

The change is for engagement.

没错。

Mhmm.

但也不能改得太突然，让孩子肌肉酸痛太久，或者增加受伤风险。

But it but it should not be so alien that it puts kids into the delayed onset of muscle soreness or risks injury.

对吧？

Right?

我们一直做深蹲，但现在可能会换成跳蹲，或者停顿深蹲，又或者做法式对比训练。

So it's like we're squatting all the time, but now we might jump squat, or now we might pause squat, or we may do a French contrast.

对吧？

Right?

或者我们也可以做单腿动作，但还是要保持深蹲的模式。

Or we may go single leg, but wear the squat.

你曾经教过我一件事，那会儿我们聊天时随便一提，但我觉得特别重要：每次训练都该从抓举或者它的变式开始。

Like, one of the things you taught me, which was just a stupid moment when we were in a conversation is like, always start with an Olympic lift or whatever the Olympic lift variation is.

现在我也开始做抓举了，但之前根本没想过该什么时候做、怎么安排才合理。

So now I I Olympic lifted, but I didn't really think about timeliness and organization of where I put it.

我以前总是先做深蹲、卧推、硬拉，最后才做抓举之类的动作。

It usually was squat, bench, deadlift, and then Olympic lift or whatever.

可仔细想想，我为什么要这么安排呢？

And it's like, well, why would I do that?

这根本说不通。

That makes no sense.

你明白吧？

You know?

应该先把抓举做完，后面的一切都算是额外收获了。

Go with the Olympic lift first, and then everything else is gravy.

激活所有的运动单位。

Get all the motor units.

获得充分的刺激。

Get all the stimulus.

这也能很好地为之后的训练热身。

It's a good warm up too for everything else you're gonna do.

所以，核心想法是，新鲜感确实重要，但也不能太离谱，比如今天跑步，明天去垂钓。

And so, like, the idea there, yeah, is that novelty is really important, but not so much novelty that it's like, we're running today, and we're fly fishing tomorrow.

是的。

Yeah,

得有个范围，你得在一定的框架内调整休息日，明白吗？

it's gotta be pretty, there's a cone of which you can explore that switch off day, you know?

对，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

我想问你一下，比如在查理·弗朗西斯的方法基础上，或者更广义地说，听你讲完，我觉得即使你不是田径教练，只是对速度和力量感兴趣，那种高低强度交替的模式，再根据情况做些调整，其实很多人都从高低强度开始，不管是速度训练还是别的，比如三天高强度，三天轻松恢复，或者安排一个主动恢复日。

Wanted to ask you, so within like, yeah, the Charlie Francis or building on that, and maybe just general, so just listening, it's like, maybe you're not a track coach, just speed and power interest, that the high low, and then, you know, breaking from that in different ways, I think that's almost, like a lot of us start at high low, be it speed or anything else, you know, three hard days, three easy days, or like you have that active recovery day.

你安排两天节奏训练，三天快速训练，这个我很喜欢。

You have like two tempo days and three fast days, which I like.

我通常会安排三天，尤其是对那些不是顶尖大学生运动员的人，你有更多掌控空间，有时候甚至多给一天休息，你怎么看？

A lot of my, I find to do three, you know, if it's not like a high level college athlete and you have a lot more control, you know, and even when you do sometimes, you know, giving them the extra day, but tell me what you think about this.

你提到过，有些运动员需要更多休息，有不同的分类。

You mentioned, you said you have different, some athlete categorizations that need more rest.

你说了有四肌主导型、22型，还有生活压力大的那种，是不是还有一种？

It was a quad, a quad dominant, a 22, like somebody who's stressful life outside, and was there one other one?

另一种就是那些完全受不了训练量的孩子。

And so the other one is just like kids that just do not tolerate work.

你懂的。

You know?

这事儿挺难办的，得想办法让他们在有限的时间里动起来。

And it's one of those things of trying to figure out how do you get them motivated in the time to get them to work.

四肌主导型百分百是因为，运动员的推力动作和拉力动作在肌肉负荷上差别太大了。

So quad dominant a 100% just because the push factor of pushing versus pulling as an athlete Muscle.

我觉得这是两码事。

Is just I feel like it's a different thing.

液压系统的工作量远大于电气系统。

There's a lot more work that's going on on the hydraulics than the electrical system.

对吧？

Right?

所以就像液压型运动员和电型运动员，或者中枢神经型运动员和肌肉型运动员的区别。

So it's like a hydraulic athlete versus an electric athlete or a CNS athlete versus a, you know, a quad a muscle athlete.

你知道的。

You know?

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得有些运动员就是缺乏动力。

And so I feel like there are athletes that are not very motivated.

所以要让他们认同这个训练计划，也就是托尼提到的那个理念，我觉得确实有道理。

So getting them to buy into the program, which is the concept that Tony talks about, I do think there's value there.

但当我们这么做时，这些事在那些日子里必须百分之百完成。

But then when we do those things, those things are absolutely gotta happen on those days without a doubt.

如果他们没来或者没出现，那我们就得在我见到他们的那天补上。

And if they don't show up or they're not there, then we have to do it on the day that I see them.

你懂的。

You know?

这事儿就得一点一点地来安排。

And that's one of those things where you've gotta piecemeal that.

所以对这样的运动员，你可能会用从短到长的训练方式，但这个‘短’不光指间歇时间短，还指你给他们安排的高强度训练天数要少。

So that's where I think with an athlete like that, you might do the short to long progression with them, but short not only in, like, the interval length, but short in the amount of intense days that you're throwing on them.

还有，乔尔，这种情况通常都是新秀。

Also, Joel, that's usually rookies.

对吧？

Right?

因为新秀刚来，什么都不熟悉。

Because rookies are new.

就像我之前跟你说的，我一直在努力让他们回来。

And as I told you before, one of the things that I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get them to come back.

所以在我这个项目里，每个新人都要控制训练量和地面训练的频率，降到最低。

So every rookie in my program has the least amount of volume and the least amount of frequency on the ground.

可能会让很多人惊讶，我们的越野跑项目其实非常出色。

It would probably surprise people who we have a really good cross country program.

我是这个项目的主教练。

I'm the head coach of that program.

我对这个项目特别有成就感。

I take a lot of pride in that.

今年我们拿下了州冠军。

We had the state champion this year.

但那个女孩刚入学的时候，每两天才练一次越野跑。

But when that girl was a freshman, she cross trained every other day.

一个刚从泳池出来的孩子，每两天才来练一次越野跑。

A kid who comes out of the swimming pool to track cross trains every other day.

所以这也是我会用高低强度训练法的另一种运动员类型，因为游泳的动作模式是水平的，而不是垂直的。

So that's another variation of an athlete that I would do the high low with because with swimming, the motor patterns are horizontal and not vertical.

是的。

Yeah.

他们承受的重力没你刚才说的那么大，但受到的阻力却更大。

They're not under as much gravity as you talked about, but they are under more drag.

这是完全不同的情况。

It's a different thing.

所以我们需要考虑到，他们还拥有像法拉利一样的强劲引擎。

And so we want and then on top of that, they have, like, a a Ferrari engine.

对吧？

Right?

可身体却像一辆福特翼虎那样笨重。

Like, in a Ford Escape body.

你明白吧？

You know?

你得让他们置身于一种能驾驭这股动力的情境中。

It's like you gotta get them into a situation where they can handle the power that that engine has.

游泳项目尤其如此。

And so with swimming, that's a big thing.

对于新生，我们甚至会故意放慢他们的进度，让他们先体验高低训练，连脚都碰不到地。

And with freshmen, we almost intentionally hold back their progression by giving them that high low experience even to the point of they're not touching the ground.

他们是在做椭圆机训练。

They're ellipticaling.

他们是在骑自行车。

They're riding the bike.

他们是在划船机上练习，对吧？

They're pulling a row machine on the Right?

他们就在做这些训练。

They're doing those things.

我知道这样可能练不出太多效果，但当年那个新生，我就知道她将来一定会很出色。

And and I know that I'm not gonna get as much out of them, but the reality is when I had that girl as a freshman, I knew she was gonna be great.

我当时也没料到她能拿州冠军，但我希望她能坚持回来，并且拥有足够好的体验，这样我们至少能帮她把潜力发挥出来。

I didn't know she was gonna be the state champion, but I wanted to make sure that she came back and that she had a good enough experience that we could at least make a run at her potential.

我希望自己成为一名教练，让孩子们重新感受到运动的快乐。

And I would wanna be a coach where I again, I want the kids to have joy.

我希望他们成为我团队的一员，同时要在心理和身体上给他们足够的缓冲，让他们能够承受得住。

I want them to be a part of my community, and that's a building to try to give them enough rest on their body psychologically that they can handle it.

当然，也有些孩子会想，哎呀，糟了。

Now are there some kids that go, oh, crap.

明年我得增加训练量，因为我得带新人？

Next year, I'm gonna have to do more volume because I'm a returner?

对。

Yes.

但即便这样，如果是个我说的‘没受过训练的孩子’——这是我用的正式说法，其实我心里管他们叫‘拖后腿的’。

But even with that, if they're a kid that I call an untrained kid, that's the appropriate nomenclature that I use, but really what I call them is my bum squad.

就是那些第一天来报到，坚持了三个月然后又不来的人。

Those are the kids that show up for day one for three months and then disappear again.

他们训练的量没我所谓的州级队员那么多，州级队员的训练量和强度都是最高的，这一点对所有跑步运动员都一样，因为我的项目里，我掌控着大部分跑步训练。

They don't do as much as what I call my state kids, and my state kids do the highest amount of volume and the highest amount of training, and that's across the board with any running athlete because I'm in control of most of the running athlete training in my program.

对吧？

Right?

我用‘州级’这个词，其实是想问：你是不是一个认真的运动员？

And and so I say that idea of state because the goal is, like, are you a serious athlete?

如果你真的认真，就会在赛季开始前就做好准备。

If you're a serious athlete, you will prepare before the season.

因为你提前准备了，我们才能安排足够的训练量，让你持续进步，同时也能安排更合适的训练内容，让你有更多自我探索的空间。

And because you've prepared, we will have the volume that will allow you to continue to progress, but also the right workouts and more of that self discovery.

我跟你相处的时间越长，就越能精准地给你开出适合你的训练方案。

The more time I spend with you, the better I can apply prescriptions for things that you need training with.

你提到‘股四头肌主导’，这点我很认同。

I like that you mentioned quad dominant.

这几年我一直在关注这个，其实一直以来，这类术语都被大家沿用很久了。

Something I've been going into the last few years, and part of it's been kind of throughout, these are terms that people have used for a long time.

我听田径教练们很久以前就提过这个，而在比尔·哈特曼的体系里，有内旋角窄和宽的区别，宽的内旋角通常意味着更强的爆发力。

I've heard track coaches mention it for a long time, and within the Bill Hartman world, there's the narrow and wide infraspineral angle, and a wide ISA is just more of a power.

他们体型更像斗牛犬，我觉得这天生就如此。我一直想，像那些瘦长型、内旋角窄的400米选手——比如所有在贝勒大学成功的杰里米·沃纳那种类型——他们的动作消耗更少，弹跳更省力。就算做递减训练，也可能有风险，因为有些孩子会停不下来。但内旋角窄的，弹性好，能持续更久才疲劳，从肌肉角度看，他们的成本低多了。而那些宽内旋角的斗牛犬型选手，启动引擎要花更多力气，所以这和每周的训练安排完全说得通。我也同意，这和从短到长的训练思路是一致的。

They're more of a pit bull type build, and I think just innately, and one of the things I've thought with that was how ectomorphs, neuro ISAs, those 400, like, probably all the guys who went to Baylor and were successful Jeremy Warner types, how they just, it costs less, bounce, like, movement costs less, and they could do a workout even to drop off, like if you were to do drop offs, I think could be kind of dangerous sometimes, because some kids will just keep going, and they'll, but the narrows, the elastics, they can bounce longer, takes them longer to drop off, they just have, it just doesn't cost as much from a muscular perspective, and you get that wide ISA pit bull type, it just costs more to get that engine going, and so that makes sense with, yeah, considering the week, and I agree, that's short to long too.

我觉得这很重要，我猜查理可能也提过类似的观点，他大概管那些瘦长型选手叫外胚型，说他们更适合长到短的项目，而中胚型的则更偏向短到长的类型。不过我觉得，这种分类在基础的速度或力量训练里也同样适用。

I think that's a big, I would imagine Charlie probably said something about, you know, ectomorphs, maybe he called them ectomorphs, and that was that, you know, and they are more maybe long to short candidates, and more mesomorphs, some more short to long, you know, type candidates, but think it also plays in that, you know, you have these types of athletes in just a basic speed training or strength program.

我觉得还有一些地方其实很相似，你不需要彻底颠覆整个训练体系，但确实，不同类型的运动员运作方式略有不同。看到你用的可能是不同术语，但思路差不多，挺有意思的。

I think there's also things that are very similar with, you know, you don't have to totally wrap your whole program in a different way, but I do think those program, those athletes, do operate a little bit differently, and so it's cool to see how you have that, just maybe under different nomenclature a little bit.

我还想问你一个问题，可能归结起来就一句：有些教练说，恢复日到底是该做点轻度活动，还是干脆彻底休息，回家完事？

And I wanted to ask you this, maybe this boils down to one little question, and that is, some coaches talk about, is it better to have an active recovery day or just totally just go home, see you later?

这和你刚才说的还挺吻合的。

And it kinda makes sense with what you said.

就我自己的运动经历来说，状态好的时候，一切都特别顺。

I know for me, in my own athletic history, when I've been feeling great, life is easy.

22年的时候就特别轻松。

The '22 is more easy.

我记得高中时，一碰到状态不好，我本能地就想出去慢跑一英里，晒晒太阳，轻松一下。

I remember in high school, just naturally, my instinct, if I had a off day, I was like, I'm gonna go out and jog a mile, just easy, in the sunshine.

这完全是出于本能，我就想这么做。

That was just instinctively what I wanted to do.

后来生活中压力大的时候，我反而发现，有时候强制自己彻底休息反而特别有帮助。

And then in more stressful times in my life later on, just, I actually benefited a lot sometimes from just forced rest.

就是干脆停一两天，啥也不干，效果反而更好。

Like, it just took a day out for two, and just didn't do anything.

你觉得这些说法怎么样？

Yeah, what do you think about all that?

我听过有人说，有些运动员更适合完全休息。

Like that athlete, I've heard people say, Oh, some athletes are better total rest people.

有些人则更适合做点轻度活动来恢复。

Some might be better active recovery people.

能再展开说说这个吗？

Yeah, any expansion on that one?

我觉得这很大程度上跟性格有关，对吧？

Well, I think a lot drives on personality, right?

比如，一个人是那种爱思考的学者型，还是个行动派，虽然有人争论基因这种说法有没有科学依据，但我们平时确实能观察到这种现象。

So if they're a scholarly type or a thinker versus a warrior, and I know that there's people that debate the validity of the gene and whether that's a thing or not, but I think we anecdotally see that.

你说是不是？

Right?

你见过那种孩子，连自己高三的日程安排都一无所知，还完全不清楚接下来该干什么。

You see the type a type of kid, and you see the kid that literally doesn't even know what the schedule of the events are, and it's their senior, and they still don't know what comes next.

你懂的吧？

You know?

他们就是压根不关心这些事。

Like, they're just not paying attention.

有时候我也说不准这算不算坏事，也许这只是他们缓解焦虑的一种自我保护方式。

And sometimes, I don't even know if that's bad because I think, like, it just might be a way for them to self protect from anxiety.

对吧？

Right?

我知道有些项目会有短跑假期，孩子那段时间就不来上课了。

I know that, like, in some programs, they have the sprinter holidays, right, where the kids don't come in.

我特别不赞成这种做法。

I very much I'm against that.

我不赞成的原因是，我喜欢保持他们日常生活的规律性。

And the reason why I'm very much against that is I like to have the structure of their physical day.

我的意思是，他们按时上课、吃午饭、和朋友见面，这些都很重要。

And what I mean by that is is, like, they do the classes they do, and they have lunch, and they see their friends, and all that kind of stuff.

但问题是，像你提到的，自由时间里，孩子们可能会去打场即兴篮球，或者去足球场乱踢一通，又或者去 YMCA 找个不懂行的本地人练些乱七八糟的力量训练。

But, like, what'll happen is that free time, like you said, might be encouraged to go play pickup basketball or to go screw around on the soccer field and kick goals or to go to the weight room and do random workouts from some local yokel guy at the YMCA that doesn't know what he's doing.

你懂的吧？

You know?

这些情况我都见过，结果不是受伤，就是得长时间休息，因为完全打乱了他们原本的节奏。

And I've had all of those things have happened, and all of those things led to either injuries or a lot of time away because it was so foreign to what their rhythm is.

对吧？

Right?

还有就是，像我们上星期一刚办过的帕克维尤四校联赛，要是中间有比赛，我肯定得见见孩子们，想知道他们怎么样。

The other thing is is, like, if we have a midseason or midweek meet, like we had the Parkway Quad that was on Monday, I wanna see my kids because I wanna know what they're doing.

我也想了解他们对比赛的反应到底如何。

And I also wanna know how did they respond to whatever it is.

这怎么说呢？

It is a, how can I say this?

算是个保障吧，万一真出了什么严重问题，也能及时发现。

A safety net to, like, maybe something really bad that needs to be treated.

对吧？

Right?

要是我们没见到他们，可能根本不知道他们在4×4接力最后阶段感觉不对劲。

So, like, if we don't see them, oh, I didn't know they felt something at the end of the four by four.

也不知道他们在回家大巴上抽筋了，或者脱水太严重，晚上直接病倒了。

Oh, I didn't know that they cramped up on the bus ride home, or that they were super dehydrated and got sick later on that night.

只要第二天见到人，我就能早点介入，帮他们调整。

If I see him the next day, I can intervene earlier to help them.

对吧？

Right?

而且我觉得，让孩子们保持血液循环，维持日常的节奏，真的很重要。

And I I think that, you know, getting the blood flow, and for them, the the rhythms of their day is really important.

显然，那些本来就想练的孩子，我们不如好好安排一下，别让他们自己乱来？

Obviously, the type a kid wants to do it anyway, so why not organize it so that they don't freelance and go rogue?

而对于那些不太主动的孩子，这就像是个体检或检查油量，看看他们状态如何，有没有问题，好及时干预、调整训练。

And for the kids that don't do that, it's to make sure that it's kind of a diagnostic check or an oil check to see that they're okay and that there isn't anything wrong, and we can intervene with treatment or adjust training.

你知道的。

You know?

对我来说，能提前规划好任何事情，都比毫无准备地瞎撞要强。

And at any time I get to be able to plan something ahead of time is better than going in blind for me.

我不喜欢意外。

And I don't like surprises.

我最讨厌愚人节。

I hate April fools.

我经常跟孩子们说，愚人节别干傻事。

I tell my kids all the time, do not do anything crazy on April fools.

你们要是敢胡来，我肯定气炸了，到时候让你们练史上最惨烈的一次训练。

You will make me very mad, and we will have the ugliest workout you've ever had.

别这么干，你知道的，在我看来这会招来坏运气。

Do not do that, you know, because that's bad karma in my opinion.

但另一方面，如果我们没看到这些孩子，也许在主动恢复日做点别的，反而能帮他们提升项目表现，就像我们上期播客聊过的，他们可能是全能运动员。

But also, if we're not seeing those kids, there might be things that we can do on an active recovery day that might actually help their event, and and they might be a multi eventer as we talked in the previous podcast.

比如他们练跨栏，如果我们安排的是高强度冲刺训练，那什么时候练跨栏技术呢？

Like, if they hurdle, well, if we're doing a real hard sprint workout, when do we get hurdle drills in?

什么时候练起跑步频？

When do we work on approaches?

什么时候练落地动作？

When do we work on landings?

有些动作可能没那么依赖中枢神经系统，也不怎么消耗能量系统，但对提升项目表现很有帮助。

You know, maybe things that are not, you know, maybe even that CNS dependent and certainly not energy system dependent, but can help the event.

你知道，我们什么时候做柔韧性训练？

You know, when do we do mobility work?

我们什么时候做软组织放松？

When do we do soft tissue work?

你说是吧？

You know?

他们能不能找教练做个拔罐，或者她做的其他项目？

Can they check-in with the trainer and get some cupping or whatever she does?

我们的教练特别棒。

Our trainer is amazing.

她做得真的很好。

She does such a good job.

你说是吧？

You know?

所以我特别反对完全休息一整天，除非是周末、节假日这种确实该休息的时候，毕竟这对他们也很重要。

So, like, yeah, I'm very much against a complete day off, except obviously when it makes sense on a weekend or a holiday or or whatever because that's important for them too.

是的

Yeah.

你知道的

You know?

让他们休息和恢复很重要。

It's important for them to rest and recover.

比如要是有提前结束的日子，我能让他们回家不用训练，那我们就这么安排。

Like, if we have a early release day and I can let them go home where they don't have to have a practice, then we will do that.

你知道的

You know?

但这只是因为这么做合理。

But that's because it just makes sense.

就像别人都能回家一样。

It's like everybody else gets to go home.

大家都回家了。

Everybody's going home.

你这两天训练得不错。

You did two good days of training.

我们没问题。

We're good.

你知道的，你周一已经把技术训练完成了。

You know, you've gotten your technical work in on Monday.

我们还可以。

We're alright.

我并不反对。

I'm not against it.

我只是更倾向于主动恢复的理念，而不是完全彻底地休息一天。

I just prefer an active recovery as a philosophy versus a full complete just day rest.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

所以我就喜欢你提到的个性速度，就连我一开始问你的那些问题，也体现了这一点。

And that's why I like that you brought in speed of personality and, like, even with the first questions I was asking you.

我会想教练的个性到底有多大的影响，至于愚人节嘛——我有时候真挺头疼的，我孩子老是突然跳出来想吓我一跳。

Like, I think about the personality of a coach and how that does influence it, and April Fools don't I mean, I struggle sometimes, my kids will jump up, try to surprise me, and scare me sometimes.

我觉得挺有意思的。

I think it's funny.

我一般都挺配合的，但说实话，我可能有点太喜欢一点混乱了。

And I'm usually a pretty good sport about it, but I do think I'm almost to a fault someone who does like a little chaos.

你懂吧？

Know?

我喜欢先制造点乱子，然后再收拾干净。

I like making some messes and then cleaning them up.

所以我觉得，如果你要当主教练，这种性格可能不太合适。

So, I think that, yeah, I think if you're gonna be a head coach, I don't think that's a great trait as a head coach.

我更想说的是，主教练和助理教练怎么配合，不同的性格怎么互补。

That's more like, I think about how head coaches and assistants can work together, and how different personalities can benefit.

但我通常喜欢那种有选择性的安排，比如给个菜单。

But I usually like some sort of active, or like a menu.

我经常给运动员提供一个菜单系统，休息日的时候，给出三个选项。

I give athletes a menu system a lot of times, day off, here's three options.

我很想看看他们选了哪一个。

And I like seeing what they picked.

但就像你说的，休息日和随便玩玩之间有个微妙的界限——比如和朋友打打轻松的21分，胡闹一下，这没问题。

But like you said, there's a fine line between, hey, got the day off, and it's one thing to go, just play some light 21 with your buddies, just kinda screw around a little bit, cool.

我最钟爱的是壁球，但要是你一整天打了四场全场的街头赛，那就不一样了，我完全理解。不过，你刚才提到的‘战士’和‘焦虑者’，我倒是很认同。

Like, racquetball's my favorite, for the most part, but versus, hey, you know, we did four full court, you know, pickup games, and it's a little So, I totally get that, But yeah, I do, I like what you mentioned actually, the warrior and the worrier.

这让我想起汉克说的‘冷静的牙齿’，我觉得那可能是大脑里某种基础机制。

That brings me back to think Hank crying off, like calm teeth, I think is the substrate, or whatever it is in your brain.

我也一直在想这个问题。

And I was thinking about that too.

这话题有点跑偏了，但比如说到短跑起跑，像40码冲刺时，运动员冲出起跑器的瞬间，我总觉得，那些更像‘战士’类型的人，体内某种化学物质更充沛，前五米的表现更好，哪怕不考虑肌纤维类型，他们就是能直接爆发，脑子里根本不会去想手臂动作，纯粹是本能地一吐气，全力冲出去。

That's a little bit of a rabbit trail, but even like, do you think, when I think about this with even like a sprint start, like someone coming out the blocks for like a 40 yard dash, is I have this feeling like people who are more warrior, W A R, that they have more, whatever that chemical is, they are the ones who have a better first five, even outside of muscle fiber types, they can just go, their brain is not thinking about the thing with the arm, it's just this instinctive exhalation power.