凯莉·雷查德的《幕后主脑》

大家好，欢迎收听由读者支持的《洛杉矶书评》带来的Larb广播时间。我是主持人凯特·沃尔夫，今天与我共同主持的是LARP的主编美狄亚·奥切尔。

Hello, and welcome to the Larb Radio Hour brought to you by reader supported LA Review of Books. I'm your host, Kate Wolfe, and I am joined by my cohost, LARP's editor in chief, Medea Ocher.

嗨，凯特。

Hi, Kate.

嗨，美狄亚。她今天在LARP办公室的一个塔楼里。

Hi, Medea. And and she's in a turret today at the LARP office.

是的。我们有个塔楼。办公室在格拉纳达大厦，旁边连着一座真正的塔楼。

Yeah. We have a turret. Our offices are in the Granada Buildings. We have a turret that's adjacent to our office. It's a it's a lit it's an actual turret.

就像长发公主那种塔楼。我们把它当作多功能空间使用，虽然可能不是最佳录音场所，但这就是我现在所在的地方。

Like, it looks like a Rapunzel turret. And we use it we use it as a kind of a whatever space, but it's not the best place to record probably, but this this is where I am.

好的。音质可能不太理想请见谅，不过想象下你在城堡里会感觉好些。今天我们要听的是对电影导演凯莉·莱卡特关于她新片《主谋》的采访。

Okay. So, yeah, apologies for the less than optimal sound, but, you know, maybe just picture you in the castle and Yeah. It's a little bit better. And and today, we're listening to an interview that we did with the filmmaker Kelly Reichardt about her new movie, The Mastermind.

嗯...凯特我不知道你对这部电影感觉如何，我们没交流过，但我个人非常喜欢。

Yeah. I I don't know how you felt about this movie, Kate. We didn't check-in about it, but I actually really loved it.

我也是。真的非常喜欢这部电影。它让我想回去看凯莉·雷查德的其他作品。这些年来我看过一些，她的手法总是那么从容不迫。

I did too. Yeah. I really loved it. And it made me wanna go back and watch more of Kelly Reichardt's other films. I've seen some of them over the years, but she has a very patient, slow touch.

而且这部电影的情节设计我觉得非常出色。你知道，有些时刻还带着悬疑感。它又是如此含蓄的一部电影，我想这正是她的标志性风格。这部作品对我来说完美平衡了含蓄与张力——毕竟这是部关于博物馆劫案的盗窃题材电影。

And, you know, the the plot I I thought the plotting on this was very good. And, you know, I was there was some suspense at times. It was also it's just such a subtle film, and I think that's was kind of what she's known for. You know? And this one had just the perfect mix to me of subtlety, but also, you know, like, some major action because it is a heist film about a museum robbery.

看吧，这时机简直完美。生活模仿艺术——这周所有人都在讨论巴黎卢浮宫发生的惊天劫案。

And look. It's, like, perfect timing, life Perfect timing. Life imitating fiction because this week, we're you know, everyone's talking about the the great heist that took place at the Louvre in in Paris.

凯莉确实说过她对艺术劫案题材多么着迷。所以这个时机确实完美。

And Kelly does tell us, like, how fascinated she is by art heist. So, yeah, it's it's perfect timing.

她总能把握时代脉搏。虽然这部电影背景设定在1970年并不当代，但我们讨论时涉及了政治等众多议题。

She's got her finger on the pulse. She does. Although this film is not contemporary. It's set in 1970. It's something we we talk about, and politics and many other things come up in this conversation.

说实话我本该预料到，虽然她的电影神秘又深邃，但凯莉本人其实超级风趣健谈，和她对话真是种享受。我本来有点紧张，但她太棒了。

And, of course, you know, I should have I should have anticipated that although her films seem mysterious and and very thoughtful, Kelly herself is just incredibly funny and talkative and loose, and it it was really a pleasure to speak with her. I was I was kind of nervous, to be honest, but she was great.

是啊，整个过程都让人愉快。

Yeah. It was a delight all around.

好的，既然你在那个炮塔里，我们就直接开始采访吧。

Great. Well, since since you're in that turret, let's just get to the interview.

让我们开始采访吧，这样我就能脱身了。

Let's get to the interview so I can escape.

我们非常激动能与电影制作人凯莉·雷查德对话，她是当代最独特且备受赞誉的作者导演之一。她的众多作品包括《昔日欢乐》《温蒂和露西》《夜幕行动》《某些女人》《第一头牛》和《亮相》。她曾获古根海姆奖学金和美国艺术家奖学金，自2014年起担任巴德学院电影与电子艺术项目的驻校艺术家。她今天将与我们讨论她的新片《主谋》，该片正在影院上映。影片由演员乔什·奥康纳饰演一位名叫JB的失业木匠，他策划了窃取家乡马萨诸塞小镇博物馆收藏的亚瑟·多夫画作的计划。

We're so excited to be speaking with the filmmaker Kelly Reichardt, one of the most unique and critically lauded auteurs of our time. Her many films include Old Joy, Wendy and Lucy, Night Moves, Certain Women, First Cow, and Showing Up. She is the recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship, a United States Artist Fellowship, and since 2014, she has been an artist in residence in the film and electronic arts program at Bard College. She's with us today to discuss her new movie, The Mastermind, which is out in theaters now. It stars the actor Josh O'Connor as an unemployed carpenter named JB who hatches a plan to rob the museum in his small Massachusetts town of its collection of Arthur Dove paintings.

尽管JB策划的盗窃行动最终名义上成功了，但他的宏大计划却徒劳无功，很快他就不得不抛下年轻家人，踏上逃亡之路，乘坐灰狗巴士穿越1970年代的美国。关于美国介入越南和柬埔寨的新闻从酒吧和寄宿旅馆的电视机里飘来，而JB此刻正孤立无援地身处其中。至于他是否认为自己与这些新闻有任何关联，或是如何看待日益高涨的反战政治浪潮，这位主谋都巧妙地保持了模糊性。非常感谢凯莉今天与我们分享。

Though the heist JB orchestrates ends up a nominal success, his larger plan is hapless, and soon he finds himself on the run having to leave his young family behind for a Greyhound tour of nineteen seventies America. News from the country's involvement in Vietnam and Cambodia wafts in from television sets in the bars and rooming houses that JB is now isolated to. But if he sees himself in relation to this news in any way or the building political opposition against the war is a question the mastermind leaves delightfully unclear. Thank you so much, Kelly, for being with us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

凯莉，我很好奇这部电影的灵感是怎么来的。

Kelly, I just I was curious how the idea for this movie came about.

嗯，在挖掘艺术盗窃题材时，我在马萨诸塞州的一份报纸上看到一篇报道——当时正值五十周年纪念日，当然故事里的女孩们现在都已成年。那是1972年她们卷入伍斯特市艺术盗窃案的五十周年。四个女孩中，两人进博物馆完成报告，另外两人因为刚拿到驾照觉得开车兜风很有趣就留在车里转悠，结果阴差阳错被卷入了这场小规模抢夺案。这大概就是最初的创作起点，因为我一直在收集各地小城镇报纸上的艺术盗窃剪报。

Well, digging around for on the topic of art heist, I came upon a a story in a Massachusetts paper that was it was the fiftieth anniversary of these now grown women, of course. It was fifty years since they were caught up in an art heist in Worcester, Massachusetts in 1972. And the four girls were two of them went into the museum for to finish up a report they were writing, and two of them hung out in the car driving around because when you're just got your license, it's fun to drive around. And they end up getting hung up, you know, on this little snatch and grab that's going down. So that was really probably the jumping off point because I had been collecting Art Heist articles and, you know, back from when you could get newspapers from small towns in different cities and, you know, cut them out.

我就是觉得，你知道吗，我总想着有朝一日能策划一场艺术品盗窃。然后就这样

And I just like you know, I just I thought someday I could do an art heist. And and so

艺术品盗窃题材的哪些方面吸引了你？

What about the art heist genre appealed to you?

犯罪与艺术。这两件事很有趣——只要犯罪没发生在你身上。但确实，在我创作这个剧本前一年左右，约瑟夫·罗西的《克莱因先生》上映了，虽然那不是部艺术盗窃片，而是种逐渐崩坏的故事，其实和本片内核相似。如果你冲着艺术盗窃来看这片可能会生气。但罗西的电影实在精彩，涉及的主题比我的电影更宏大。

Crime and art. Those are two fun things if they're not hap if if crime's not happening to you. But, yeah, those I actually also you know, in the maybe a year or so before I worked on this script, Joseph Losey's mister Klein had come out, which isn't an art heist film, but it's a kinda coming undone film, which is really what this film is. Like, if you went to this film expecting an art heist, you might get mad. But the Losey film, just spectacular film, and bigger things are at stake than in my film.

故事讲的是个艺术收藏家趁机占便宜，从逃亡中的犹太邻居们手里低价收购艺术品。具体情节我不剧透，但这确实是我最爱的罗西电影。当时纽约电影论坛放了新修复版，画面美到让我这个不注重剧情的人都只想盯着看，结果第二天又去二刷，这才更深入理解了。

But, you know, it's about an art collector who's kind of taking advantage of the situation and just in he he's buying art from his neighbors and all the Jewish community who are on the run and having to hide and sell their art. And then well, I won't tell you what happens because but it's a it's a really my favorite Low Sea film. And, anyway, that film had there was a new print of it, and it showed at the film forum in New York. And I went to see it, and it was so beautiful at a point I'm a really bad plot person, and I just, you know, wanted to look at it. And so then I went back and the next day and saw it again, and I could get more into it.

这部电影在影院驻留了很久。我特别喜欢其中角色对周遭巨变浑然不觉，甚至想利用时机的设定——虽然我的角色没这么极端，但确实带着1970年代（我电影设定的年代）那种随大流的叛逆气质，或者说他的叛逆更多是针对自己优渥的出身。我喜欢追踪这样一个觉得世界动荡与己无关的角色。

And then I just it was around for a while. It got held over. And so, anyway, I had that was a little bit I liked this idea of someone who was sort of oblivious to bigger factors that were going on around them and just trying to even use the moment as a not that my character specifically does this, but definitely, you know, there's a little something of him that's jumping off the it's 1970, I should say, my film. That's that's either jumping on the bandwagon of just general rebelliousness, or perhaps his rebelliousness is more towards his, you know, own family and his own sort of privileged upbringing. But, yeah, I liked the idea of following a character and that that's, like, just not cons not concern not feeling that what's happening in the bigger world will touch them.

这个角色最迷人的地方就在于我们摸不透他偷阿瑟·多夫画作的目的——显然他还没想好怎么销赃。有场戏他直接把一幅画挂客厅里痴痴欣赏，让我不禁怀疑：难道他只是想占有这些画？

Yeah. And I think that's such a point of fascination with this character is that we don't quite know what his aim is here with with stealing these Arthur Dove paintings, because it's not clear how he would sell them. It doesn't seem that he has that lined up before he takes them. And there's a moment where he actually hangs one in his living room and just looks at it with awe. And so then that starts to make me wonder, at least when I was watching it, like, did he really just want to own these paintings?

表面看他是需要钱，但这显然不是解决问题的办法。影片保留了很多未解释的模糊地带。我很好奇你创作时如何把握这种模糊性？因为虚构作品常要求明确每个角色的行为动机，但本片却反其道而行。

I mean, you know, we have the idea that maybe he needs to make money. He has to do something, but it's not really clear that this is gonna be the thing that is going to help in that regard. And I and I so there's a lot of ambiguity there. It's not never really explained. And I was also wondering, I'm curious for you to talk about that, but then also to talk about allowing yourself as you're writing the film ambiguity because I think that's often an imperative in fiction where you're supposed to know, like, why are characters doing every single thing?

我在想你是否知道这些，但你选择保持开放态度，或者你觉得你不想了解所有角色的这些细节。

And I was wondering if you do know that, but you choose to leave it open or if you feel like that you don't want to know those things about all the characters.

嗯，可以说电影制作最具挑战性的一点在于，你要决定何时揭示信息以及揭示多少。然后在观众看到电影前，你还要进行五周的媒体宣传，把一切剧情都提前透露出去——这才是下一个挑战。我不愿为任何人填补空白，因为我希望留有足够空间让观众带入自己的理解。我创作时的思路是：把观众视为情境中的参与者。就像我不会向相识二十年的老友解释我们的过往——因为没这个必要。

Well, would say one of the most challenging things about filmmaking is you you're figuring out when to reveal things and how much to reveal. And then right before anyone sees your movie, you go on a five week press tour and tell everyone what everything is before they see the movie. That is the next challenging thing. So like how can I I don't want to fill in the blanks for anybody because I hope there's enough space for people to sort of bring their own? But I the way I approach it when I'm writing is to think of the audience or the viewer as being just like someone who's in the situation as far as like, I wouldn't be filling in these people I've known for twenty years on our history because why would I?

同样，我不会向父母解释秘密行动——我能向谁透露呢？这就像寻找彩蛋的合适数量：既不让观众沮丧，又要留出空间。这个角色并不复杂，观众可以投射自己的理解。影片通过他人对他的感受来展现他。你知道，这类追求个人自由的反英雄原型——通常都是男性角色，毕竟除了男人还有谁会觉得能随意追求自由？

Or I wouldn't be filling in my parents on or I wouldn't be explaining something if I'm doing it in secret. Who would I be telling that to? And so there are you know, it's sort of like what's the right amount of Easter eggs without frustrating everyone and at the same time leaving room for you know, it's a character who he's not like a deep person, I would say, and there's room to for people to project onto him, I think. And I think he's most explained when people in the film are are kind of ex how they experience him. You know, we I mean, you know, the like, the the prototype of the, you know, the anti hero who wants his personal freedom and, you know, and it's that element is here, is usually someone's personal freedom, a man's, let's say, because who else thinks they can go out for their personal freedom besides a dude?

这种自由的代价往往由他人承担，特别是在1970年代，可能是你的伴侣、母亲或朋友。所以这部电影试图保持更客观的视角，而非完全沉浸在这个男人的世界里。

It it it falls on the the weight of it falls on someone else and often that's, you know, could be especially in 1970 would be, you know, your mate, your mother, your friend. So it's like there's the film's kind of tries to be more I think is more objective than, like, being inside this guy.

是的。我们确实看到他个人决定的重压。他的每个选择都影响着身边人——妻子、朋友、父母。他总在方便时让父母承担后果，需要钱时就指望妻子汇款。但同时又有种向外的手势...

Yeah. And we do really see the weight the weight of his personal decisions. The personal decisions he makes fall on everybody around him, particularly his his wife, his friends, his parents. He seems happy to let the weight fall on his parents when it's convenient to him and happy to have his wife potentially wire some money when he needs it. But then we also have this, like, the gesturing.

这种向外的手势不断出现，直到...国家层面正在发生的政治事件，就像我们刚才提到的。战争正蔓延到柬埔寨。而他总是...你知道，他不断逃避，有时通过艺术积极逃避，有时只是挂衣服挡住电视屏幕。

We constantly have this, like, gesturing outwards until, like, the the national what's happening on the national scale, what's happening on the political scale, which is what we had just mentioned, before. And the war, it's spreading to Cambodia. And and I and I feel like there's always a you know, he's constantly evading it somewhat, sometimes by sometimes with art pretty actively, sometimes just by, like, hanging hanging clothes so that he can't see the screen.

我认为对他来说，世界大事就像视野边缘的模糊影像。这也是我的拍摄手法——让一切保持在边缘。我们知道它存在，但究竟是什么呢？1970年时我说过，我的主角33岁，刚好过了征兵年龄。

I think of it as, like, the what's happening in the world is just on the peripheral of his vision, and so that is the approach I took on filming is to try to keep things on the peripheral. Like, it's knows it's there. We all know it's there, but what is it all? You know, I said it in 1970 thinking, you know, my guy is 33. He's a little bit over draft age.

他有两个孩子。他父亲的处境让他不必担心征兵的事。所以这是另一种情况，需要担心的是别人，可能是他的朋友、同伴，但他自己并不觉得这会影响他。这就是我记得当时问自己父亲时的情景，我猜他那时多大年纪？我问他，在越南战争期间，你有没有害怕过？你在想什么？

He has two kids. His father is kind of set up in a way that, you know, like, it's not the draft isn't breathing down his back. So it's like another way that he that someone else would have to be worrying and someone, know, could be his friends, his, you know, cohorts, but that he himself doesn't really it's another thing that he doesn't think is gonna affect him. So so that's just sort of how I was like, I remember I asked my own dad who would have been I guess, what age would he have been? I I said to him, like, well, you know, did you have any fear of you know, what were you thinking during the war, Vietnam War?

他说他真的不记得自己或朋友曾讨论过这件事。我很惊讶，他说完全不记得有想过这事。他当时有两个孩子，所以应该不是独自面对。

And he said, he honestly couldn't remember him and his friends ever having a conversation about it. And I was like, really? He's just like, I don't ever remember thinking about it. And, you know, he and he said, you know, I had two kids at the time. And and so I mean and and he couldn't been alone.

肯定还有像他这样的人，只是我们没听说过。

It must have been other people like that that just I mean, we don't hear about them.

有个很有趣的场景，他在酒吧里。酒吧里还有三个黑人，其中一人谈到自己参军的原因。他说他想知道自己本质上是什么样的人，所以参了军。但到了岛上后，现实变得残酷起来。

There's a really interest there's a interesting scene when there's a he's he's in a bar. There's three other men in the bar, and one of the men is talking about having enlisted. It's three black men. And he says, you know, he wanted to know what he essentially, he was made of, and that's why he enlisted. And then he got to the island, and then shit got real.

我当时就在想，JB什么时候会面对现实？什么时候情况会变得严峻？

And I was like, oh, when is it gonna get real for JB? Right? Like, when when will shit get real?

对，就是那个谈到帕里斯岛的人，然后事情就...

Yeah. Oh, he's the guy talks about Parris Island, yeah, and things get

变得严峻了，是的。

real Yes.

训练营。对。对。嗯，这是电影中提出的问题之一。我是说，事情对每个人来说都会变得真实吗？

Boot camp. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is the one of the questions in the film. I mean, do things always get real for everybody?

你知道，我想这就是问题所在。取决于情况，比如，天啊，如果你现在住在芝加哥街头，对某些人来说情况确实很严峻，而对另一些人来说，你可能正过着平常的生活。我是说，对我们所有人来说，现在都可以这么说，对吧？比如，现实很残酷，但我们却在这里讨论一部电影。

You know, I guess that's the question. Depends, you know, like, gee whiz, if you're living on the streets of Chicago right now, for some people, shit's really real, and for other people, you're probably going along with your life. I mean, for all of us, we could say that right now. Right? Like, shit is real and and yet here we are talking about a movie.

懂我意思吗？就是这样。

You know? So yeah.

是的。我觉得这部电影做得好的另一点是，观影时有个短语不断浮现在我脑海——'奇怪的伙伴'，人们可能被卷入某种所谓的'真实'事件，但最初参与的原因可能完全不同。我们多次看到这点，比如，最初和他一起偷画的那群小偷，每个人参与的动机可能截然不同。后来当他因画作逃亡时，他去拜访的那些朋友给我的感觉像是逃避兵役的人，不得不躲藏起来。这部分我不确定是否明示了。

Yeah. I mean, I think something else the film does well is a a phrase that kept coming back to me as I was watching it with strange bedfellows, that people could be wrapped up in something, quote, unquote, real, but maybe have completely different reasons why they're there in the first place. And I think we see that many times even, like, with, you know, with the with the initially, with the the thieves who are stealing the paintings with him, like, why each of them is there is probably really different. And then once he's on the run from the paintings, he visits these friends of his who I had the sense that they were had been draft dodgers and had to hide out. That wasn't I don't know if that was explicit.

明白吗？所以他们可能处于比他更高尚的境地，但都完全游离于社会之外。他们提到一个他可以去的公社，那里全是逃避兵役的人、激进女权主义者、瘾君子，所有这些人都聚在一起。我又想到那个众人搭车的绝美镜头，就像...我觉得这是各种人物和命运在路上的大杂烩。这个主题反复出现，我在想你是否也考虑过这点，或者说这是否符合你对电影主线的理解。

You know? So they're, you know, maybe, like, in a more noble place than he is, but they're both completely on the outside of society. They talk about a commune he could go to that's full of, like, you know, draft dodgers, radical feminists, dope addicts, like, all these people together. I thought about it again at this beautiful shot of everyone hitchhiking in a car, just like the I thought it was such a mashup of characters and destinies all together on the road. And so that that theme came up for me a lot, and I was wondering if it was something you were thinking about or, you know, if you if if that seems like an accurate thread of the film.

我不认为他拜访的那些人和他同龄，他们都过了征兵年龄。我一直觉得那个地方，虽然没明确说明，可能是她父母家之类的地方，可以让你住着不用承担太多经济责任。不过你可以任意解读。但他们确实都年长些，属于另一代人。

I didn't think those guys that he visits are the same age as him, so I think they're all a little over draft age. So they're just I guess I always thought of that place as, you know, but it's not really explained, is like her parents' place or something where you get to go live and be, you know, without too many financial responsibilities. But, I mean, it could be whatever you want it to be. But, yeah, they're all a little bit older. They're on the other side.

他们只是过了征兵年龄，这也是我把背景设在90年代的部分原因。那些不一定是和他一起...那些更像是他的高中哥们，或者从小一起买大麻的发小，不过他住的社区可能比那些人高档些。但说到底，这本质上是个关于一个正在毁掉自己生活的男人的故事。差不多就是这样

They're just on the other side of know, it's part of the reason I put it in 90 they're just on the other side of draft age. Those not necessarily the people he does the those are kinda like his high school buddies that he does the or or the people, you know, you buy weed from that you grow up with, but he's maybe in a nicer neighborhood than those guys. All these things are but, you know, it's really a story it's really about a story of a guy who, you know, is blowing up his life essentially. And that's kinda

但我

But I

我认为如此

what I think it is.

但我觉得，生活中有太多方式可以毁掉自己的人生，大概就是

But I think it's a there's so many ways to blow up your life, I guess, and

不。他为什么不出轨呢？对吧。

No. Why didn't he just have an affair? Right.

嗯，我认为还有，你知道，七十年代尤其是从六十年代末到七十年代，我们想到很多例子，人们因为理想主义毁掉了自己的生活。在你的其他电影里，也有人为了政治原因引爆炸弹，那些原因作为观众我某种程度上可以认同，或者他们的理想我能理解。而这里，这幅画像中的人物我们不太能理解他的动机。如果仅仅是对艺术的热爱，我或许还能理解，但这确实令人费解。

Well, I think but also, you know, the seventies and especially, you know, from going into the late sixties to seventies, I think we think of a lot there's so many examples of people who blow up their lives through idealism. And in other films of yours, we have people who are detonating bombs for, like, political causes that are you know, that I, a viewer, could agree with to some degree or their ideals I could agree with. And here, right, it is it is a bit of a portrait of someone who's we don't, you know, necessarily understand why. I mean, if it was just the love of art alone, I could I could kinda get behind that, but it it it's it's, you know, puzzling.

我觉得，是什么驱动着穆尼呢？乔什可能会说不是。他有个非常好的想法。确实是个好主意。但我觉得他就像国内很多人一样，在反抗自己中产阶级的成长背景。

I think it's well, I think that what makes Mooney tick? I mean, Josh would say, no. He has a really good idea. Like, it's a really good idea. But I think he's you know, like a lot of the country, he's rebelling against his middle class upbringing.

好吧。五十年代那套对很多人不管用，你知道，对某些人有效，但对很多人无效。然后是六十年代，那个梦想破灭了。但我认为反抗中产阶级和特权，反抗在体制内工作的父亲，这种情况并不罕见。

Alright. You have the fifties. That didn't work for any you know, worked for some people, but didn't work for a lot of people. And then there's this the sixties, and, you know, that dream gets shattered. But I think the rebelling against the middle class and privilege and, you know, like a father that works in the system, that that's not that uncommon.

关键在于他非常依恋自己的特权，甚至可能都没意识到这种依恋有多深，这已经成了他身份的一部分。所以他反抗特权更像是种便利或潮流，因为这就是他习惯的生活方式，是他赖以生存的方式，他始终认为一切都会好起来的。

And it's just that he's very he's very attached to his privilege and maybe even unaware of how attached he is to his privilege, so he can't really I mean, it's part just part of who he is. And so he like, rebelling against it is, you know, convenient or almost fashion in a sense because he's, you know, it's how he knows how to live. It's how he knows how to get by and how he expects he'll get by and just presumes I think this character presumes all along that everything will be okay for him.

另外，我很好奇，围绕这样一个角色拍电影是什么感觉？我是说，以某种程度上的无赖作为电影核心人物。

And and, also, I I I guess I'm curious. What is it like to work with a character or kinda have this character at the center of your film? I mean, to to base a film around someone who's kind of a scoundrel in a lot of ways.

他是个彻头彻尾的混蛋。我记得小时候总在车里度过——想起成长经历就浮现迈阿密闷热车厢的画面，不断上车下车，永远在车里。我最早的政治记忆是泳池派对时看尼克松辞职，就像目睹大人惹上麻烦，那种尴尬感让人不知所措。

He's a real he's a scoundrel. I mean, I didn't think he was depends mean, I can remember just being I remember as a kid just spending in it. Like, if I think of, like, growing up, I think of being in hot cars in Miami, just constantly in cars, waiting in cars, getting in cars, getting in the car, the car, always in the car. And I remember, like, my first political memory is, like, get out of the pool and watch Nixon resign, like, being at a pool party and every all the kids out watch this. And you're like watching an adult get in trouble, and it's kinda embarrassing because you're just like, wait.

什么？我记得和姐姐坐在车里，母亲是卧底缉毒警。我们得趴在后座地板上，行李箱被挪来挪去，完全搞不清状况。

What? And and I remember my sister and I being in cars. You know, my my mom was a undercover narcotics agent. My sister and I being in these cars, and we'd have to get down on the back seat of the floor. Suitcase was getting moved here or there, and you're just like, what?

到底怎么回事？界限永远模糊不清。母亲总穿得像嬉皮士，让我长期以为她是另一边的人。当孩子分不清父母是否在违规时，那种困惑感太强烈了，你根本不知道边界在哪里。

What's going on? Like, nothing was clear of where the lines were and what like, my mom was always dressed like a hippie, so I thought she was, like, on the other side for a long time. It's very confusing. But it's very confusing for a kid when they don't know when parents are breaking the rules, it's very confusing. And you don't exactly know where the lines are.

说来好笑，我现在思绪有点乱——但请耐心听。我和阿兰娜有这种默契，她看似来自充满爱的家庭，乔什也是。

So I felt like you know, it's funny. I had this thing. I'm a little all over the place right now, but bear with me. No. I mean, I had this thing with Alana because, you know, Alana's seemingly from a very loving family as is Josh.

不过她和我明显是两代人。1970年我六岁时，每当让她和孩子们互动，她总想表现得更温暖些，对孩子们更关心些。而我会说：没人在乎这些，懂吗？

But, you know, she's a a different generation than me, obviously. I'm in 1970, I'm six years old. But, you know, she whenever I'd have her do something with the kids, she really wanted to express a little something warmer, something more interest in the kids. And I would say, like, no one gives a shit. You know?

父母根本不在乎。他们不...在1970年代没人会问，没人会关心孩子的感受。我是说，这跟我的经历相差甚远。上车吧。赶紧上车。

Like, parents don't give a shit. They don't you it doesn't no one is asking in 1970, no one's asking a kid how they feel. I mean or that is so far from my experience. Get in the car. Just get in the car.

闭嘴，上车。不是那种'你感觉怎么样？亲爱的，能上车吗？你还好吗？'这种话会自然而然从阿拉纳嘴里说出来。

Shut up and get in the car. Not like, how are you feeling about it? Sweetheart, will you get in the car? Are you okay? And these things would just naturally come out of Alana's mouth.

她只是无法...以她那种充满爱心的天性，我觉得，阿拉纳，你懂吗？不。你不是...那时候没人会这样关注孩子的感受。所以，没错，穆尼是个混蛋，但他和1970年代的百万父亲有什么不同？我父亲曾是犯罪现场侦探，我六岁时就常去犯罪现场办公室等他。

She just couldn't being the loving person that she is, and I feel like, Alana, you know? No. You're not like, no one's tuned in to kids' feelings in this way. So, you know, like, yeah, Mooney's a scoundrel, but is he that different than a million fathers in 1970? I mean, my dad used was a crime scene detective, and he used to I used to go to the crime scene at, like, six years old and wait in the office.

那间办公室挂满各种暴力恐怖场景的大照片。我就坐在椅子上等父亲，没人会说'哦，你不该看这些。你还好吗？这对你心理有影响吗？'根本没人管。

And this office was filled with huge photos of, like, horrifying scenes of violence. And I just wait there for my dad to wait here, wait on the chair here, and no one said, oh, well, you shouldn't see this. Are you okay? Is this mentally okay for you? Like, no one gave a shit.

根本没人考虑这些。那时候父母才20岁。他们对养孩子懂什么？所以，没错，穆尼确实不擅长当父亲，但也不至于...可能我的标准太低了（这很可能就是我不生孩子的原因）。但他确实...

Like, no one was thinking. Anyway, parents were 20. Like, what do they know about having kids? So, you know, like, yeah, Mooney kinda is not great at it, but he's not like I mean, maybe my bar is very low, which is possible, and why I don't have kids. But he's yeah.

他做得不好。确实不好。但我觉得很多父母都做得不好。我...不知道。也许我错了。

He's not great. He's not great. But I think a lot of parenting wasn't great. Like, you know, I I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.

可能我...我比你年长，贝丝。

Maybe that I I'm I'm older than you, Beth.

我是说，她确实或者你们确实交换了一个充满爱意的眼神。那是一个充满爱意的眼神

There is I mean, she does she or you you guys did get in a loving glance. There is a loving glance

她偷偷塞进来的。在车里。

She snuck it in. In the car.

她偷偷塞进来的。我确实注意到了，我确实注意到了她在车里回头看孩子们时那个充满爱意的眼神。

She snuck it in. I I did notice I did notice that that loving glance in the car when she looks back at her kids.

那个，好吧，那只是一个回头的眼神，不是她把爱意，不是她把爱意放在那里。

That's well, it's it's just a looking back glance, not a she put the love she put the love in there.

她把爱意放在那里。我是说，说到这个，我很好奇，比如，电影中女性的角色。那位母亲，还有阿兰娜的角色，名字我现在记不起来了。

She put the love in there. I mean, on that note, I was curious about, like, the the role of the women in the film. The the mother and, Alana's character, whose name now I can't remember.

哦，在电影里。希望是

Oh, in the film. Hopefully In

电影里。

the film.

角色。莎拉。

Character. Sarah.

好的，谢谢。他们，你知道，他们扮演着几乎像结构性的核心角色。就像，他们在某种程度上为情节推进提供了基础。然后，但我想到了，就像你说的那样，他行为的重担最终确实落在了他们身上去承担。

Okay. Thank you. They, you you know, they play they play central, almost like structural roles. Like, they they provide, like, a foundation in some ways for the plot to move forward. And then and and but I and I thought about, like, sort of what how you said it, the the the weight of his actions really really ends up on them to manage.

是啊。我在想这是否也让你觉得有些典型。比如，当然，你知道，他比七十年代任何典型的父亲形象糟糕很多吗？但这是否也让你觉得女性还要承担那种不负责任的负担，哦，是啊。

Yeah. And I wonder if that felt to you also somewhat typical. Like, sure, you know, he's is he is he that much worse than any typical father figure in the seventies? But does that also did that also feel somewhat typical to you that the that the women then also bear that Oh, yeah. Bear the burden of that irresponsibility.

是啊，直到今天。

Yeah. To this day.

是啊，我是说，很明显。

Yeah. I mean, clearly.

我住在俄勒冈州的波特兰。那些男人有工作吗？没有。女人有。但是好吧。

I live in Portland, Oregon. Do any of the men have jobs? No. The women do. But but okay.

为了反驳我刚才说的，我给全家人——霍普、比尔·坎普和乔什推荐了两部纪录片，一部叫《杰夫讲述的史蒂夫·克里纳兹的飞机》，是杰夫·克里纳兹在MIT时拍的，这位出色的纪录片导演当时大概18、19岁吧，他弟弟——可能更小——他哥哥正从父母家搬出去。他们是东海岸中产阶级知识分子家庭，父母对儿子搬出去这件事非常执着。这和我成长的环境完全不同。

Just to counter what I just said, I gave them all the family, Hope, Bill Camp, and Josh, two documentaries to watch, and one is called The Plane of Steve Krynaz as Told by His Brother Jeff, which is a film made at MIT when Jeff Krynaz, this fabulous documentary filmmaker was I don't know. He's probably 18 or 19, and his his brother he's probably younger than not. His younger brother his older brother his older brother is moving out of his parents' house, their parents' house. And they're East Coasters, middle class, intellectual family, and the parents are obsessed with their son moving out. So this is really different than how I grew up.

我来自一个‘别让门在你离开时拍到你屁股’的家庭，而这个家庭不希望他们的儿子搬出去，认为他还没准备好。杰夫刚刚拍摄了他哥哥搬出父母家的过程，这充分展现了那个时代的氛围、房子的样貌以及家庭动态，比尔和霍普对这部影片着了迷。我还给他们看了杰夫·克里恩的搭档乔尔·德莫特的影片，她刚去世不久，是七十年代非常重要的纪录片制片人，如果你不了解她应该去查查。她在麻省理工学院那一年，还在马萨诸塞州的家中用60毫米胶片拍摄了感恩节的场景。这两部作品对家庭形态的刻画具有开创性，与我的经历截然不同，但尤其是霍普和比尔，他们非常效仿杰夫影片中的父母形象。

I came from a don't let the door slap you on the ass on the way out, and this this family does not want their son to move out, doesn't think he's ready to move out. And Jeff just filmed his brother moving out of his parents' house, and it gives a lot of texture of this time and of what a house looks like and a family dynamic, and and Bill and Hope became obsessed with this film. Another film I showed them was from Jeff Krine's partner, Joel Demott, who just passed away, and she's a really important film documentary filmmaker from the seventies and should be looked up if you don't know her. And she made at MIT the same year her family in Massachusetts a 60 millimeter film just at Thanksgiving. And these were two kind of seminal things for forming the family and really different from my kind of experience, but just they especially Hope Hope and Bill, and they're they're very fashioned after these the the the parents in Jeff's films.

所以我不太确定。我想乔尔·德莫特的影片现在会以某种合集形式发布，包括她和杰夫·克里恩合作的影片。总之，简单聊聊乔尔·德莫特，因为她真的很棒。那些都是些纪录片，展现了不同类型的家庭动态，其中母亲总是挡道，而乔希就是那个J.B.

So I don't know. Those are I think Joel Dumont's films are gonna come out as some kind of collection now, and and her films with Jeff Krynez. Just, anyway, just to talk about Joel Dumont for a second because she's great. Anyway, those were some docs, and those those are different kind of family dynamics where the mom's all in the way Josh is the J. B.

穆尼的母亲莎拉，真的只想继续支持她的儿子，也就是把他捧在手心里。

Mooney's mom, Sarah, really just wants to keep supporting her son, I. E, cradling him.

我我在想那些画作本身，以及它们周围那种松懈的安保，还有对这种触手可及的物质世界的描绘。在我看来，这与现在博物馆和整个文化中的情况截然不同。甚至，你知道，当J.B在逃亡时，我们能感受到他花的每一分钱、每一张车票、每一通电话。因为没有数字世界可以依靠，我们能更强烈地感受到他的绝望。同样，这个故事之所以可能，正是因为当时没有监控。

I I wondered about the paintings themselves and the kind of la lax security around them and this depiction of a material world that is very tactile and available. It's it seemed to me in a in a really different way than things are now in museums and in culture at large. Even, you know, we have this sense of j b when he's on the on the run that it's like we feel every last dollar and the tickets and the phones. It's like we can feel his desperation more because there is no digital world for him to turn to. And in the same way, like, the story is possible because there's no surveillance.

我是说，这似乎也有点象征意义，这些画就在那里，几乎唾手可得。

I mean, it also seems a little symbolic in that, like, these paintings are just there and almost, like, there for the taking.

是啊。但在波士顿加德纳博物馆那起盗窃案之前，你知道，那些不是退休的保安，而是些在博物馆里开迷幻派对的瘾君子保安，所有那些名画都被偷了。在此之前，还有一连串的顺手牵羊案件。我是说，这成了常态。有些人偷画是为了，你知道，他们参与其他犯罪活动，如果因毒品被抓，他们会用这些画来换取减刑什么的。

Yeah. But, I mean, before the Gardner Museum robbery in Boston, where those, you know, whatever you have, like, not retired guards, but, like these acid head guards that are having acid parties in the Gardner Museum, and all these masterpieces get stolen. Before that, there's a huge rash of snatch and grabs. I mean, it's like a thing. And some people steal them for you know, they're involved in other kind of crime, and they're gonna use it to if they get caught with drugs, they're gonna use the paintings to get a lower sentence or something.

然后人们...但博物馆外面这些环形车道，现在再也看不到了，但在过去到处都是。没有摄像头，安保也很松懈，都是些退休人员。伍斯特博物馆就是这样的，人们从其他工作退休后去博物馆工作。现在如果要拍一部年代剧，你得雇一整个团队，在拍摄现场和后期处理中把无处不在的监控摄像头从画面中抹掉。

And then people are but it there's these roundabouts outside of museums, which you never see anymore, but they were quite they were everywhere back in the day. And there's no cameras and the security was lax. It was retirees, and and that's how it was at the Worcester Museum. You know, people retired from other jobs and then got a job at the museum. And now, you know, to make a period piece, you you have to have hire a whole team of people that are gonna go around everywhere you shoot and in post erase all the security cameras out of life, which they're everywhere.

比如，每栋建筑都装有监控摄像头。所以理论上你可以进去偷一幅画，这简直是明目张胆的行为。而且你也知道，就像德库宁那帮人那样，他们直接把画扯下来塞进外套偷走，然后藏在自己卧室里——我是说，你把本属于公共空间的东西据为己有。这种行为很不光彩，如果你把艺术品从公共空间偷走，那你绝不是什么好公民。不过，确实存在这种情况。

Like, every building has security cameras on it. So it it you could go in and take a painting if you it's just a brazen act. And it's also an act that you you know, people stole like the De Kooning people that just grabbed the painting and put it under their jacket and stole it and kept it in their bedroom for their entire I mean, it you're taking something out of a public space that's for everyone and you're taking it for yourself. And so it's not a very you're not a good citizen if you take art out of a public space. But, yeah, this is true.

但如果你开始思考并留意，就会发现艺术盗窃案至今仍以各种形式在世界各地发生。

But there's still if you start thinking about it and looking for it, you art heists still to this day are happening in different ways all over the place.

好吧，让我问一个非常非常明显的问题，抱歉它如此显而易见。当你拍摄一部年代剧时——毕竟你已经拍过好几部了——你设想这部剧会如何直接评论当下？这是你考虑的因素吗？你是刻意为之还是顺其自然？

Well, let me ask you a really, really obvious question, and I'm sorry that this is so obvious. When you're making a film about a a period piece, you know, as as you've made a number of them at this point, how directly are you imagining that that piece is going to comment on the present? Like, is that in your mind? Is that something you're really conscious of, or do you just that's

这不可避免，当然也在我的考虑范围内。但归根结底，我会选择戴上眼罩专注于手头的工作和我正在塑造的角色。到了一定阶段，我就不愿再想那些事了，只想深入细节——这种情况自然会发生。你会完全沉浸在自己正在做的事情中，沉浸在你角色所处的世界里必须完成的任务。说实话，这次拍摄经历如此愉快的原因之一——除了能与这么优秀的团队合作之外——

It's inevitable, but it's also on my mind, of course. But I I when it comes down to it, there's a point where I put blinders onto it because I wanna concentrate on what I'm doing and on the character I'm working on. And so I wanna not think about those things after a time and and really just get into the nitty and it happens. You just get into the nitty gritty of what you're doing and what your character has to do in the world you're working in. And I have to say, honestly, one of the reasons this was such a nice experience, this film well, aside from I worked with such such great people.

我们去年这个时候开机拍摄的，10月17日。刚开拍一两周就遇上大选，但能在选举期间置身创作气泡、不用考虑政治时刻的感觉太棒了。这部电影能这么快完成，是因为我离开那个气泡后——我是说回波特兰两天后就直接进了剪辑室。圣诞节那天我还在工作，就像躲在一块舒适的岩石下面...虽然人不能永远躲在石头底下。

But, you know, we shot over the we're shooting this time last year, October 17. We're just, like, a week, two weeks into shooting. So we shot through the election, and it was so great to shoot through the election and be in a bubble and not be thinking about the political moment. And the reason this film got done so fast is then after I got out of that bubble, I went I mean, I went back to Portland and I went in the editing room two days after we wrapped. And I was in there on Christmas and everyone I just I really it was like a rock to climb under, a nice comfortable rock and not face what you know, you can't live under the rock forever.

但我...我确实没...虽然知道会有相似之处，但当我想到这部电影拍摄于1970年，想到国民警卫队冲进肯特州立大学向学生开枪时，我完全没料到在我的电影上映这周，国民警卫队会试图闯入我居住的波特兰，或是在芝加哥街头让人凭空消失。这完全超出我的预料。唉，还能说什么呢？

But but I I so didn't but I would not I knew there would be parallels, but I did not imagine the week my film opened when I thought about it being shot in 1970 and how the National Guard went on to Kent State and shot students. I would have not imagined that the National Guard would be trying to bust into Portland where I live or be disappearing people on the streets of Chicago. I didn't foresee that. And yeah. So, gee, what can you say about that?

我本不可能预见到这些。虽然知道情况会糟糕...

I wouldn't have known that was gonna happen. Knew it would be bad. But

是啊。我在想，有些事情，你知道的，有些事情看起来...虽然我不剧透，但电影里似乎传达的是——你不可能永远躲在自己的小天地里。无论你做什么，历史或政治总会找上门来。

Yeah. I wonder if something that, you know, something that seems and I I won't give this away, but something that seems to happen in the movie is that is is that, is that you can't live under a rock forever. That kind of, like, no matter what you do, history or politics or both

对。没错。

Right. Yeah.

它们可能会突然把你卷进去。确实如此。对此你无能为力。我在想，这大概就是你面对重大历史事件或政治议题时的态度吧？迟早我们都得直面这些问题。

Might kind of swoop swoop you up. Yeah. And there's not a lot you can do about that. And I and I wonder if that's that is kind of how you approach bigger sort of bigger historical events or bigger bigger political issues where you're like, you know, at one point or another, we're gonna have to face it?

是啊。特别是和约翰·雷蒙德合作时，我觉得...我的意思是，这样想更容易些，因为现在只是我自己在脑子里琢磨。但和他一起时，我们可以公开讨论。我们一直在努力...我更喜欢关注微观政治，比如思考怎么弄到牛奶来做饼干。你知道的，就像...可能不是所有人，但我觉得大家都讨厌业主委员会会议。天啊。

Yeah. Well, especially when I'm working with John Raymond, I think one thing that we I mean, it's easier to think about that because at this, I'm just in my head by myself talking about things. But with him, I'm like, we could talk out loud about things, and I think what we constantly try to do what I try to do is to keep I like small politics, and I like thinking about, you know, how am I gonna get the milk to make the biscuits? Or, you know, like, people might maybe not most, but I think people hate, like, an HOA meeting at your condo. Oh my god.

等不及要开业主会了。你知道的...

Can't wait for the HOA meeting. Like, you know

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

人们讨厌参加教职工会议？让我进去！教职工会议？求之不得。什么？

People hate going to a faculty meeting? Let me in. Faculty meeting? Yes, please. What?

我是说，我喜欢看人们试图弄清楚事情，但整体画面让我感到非常压抑，我想这就是为什么人们如此喜欢犯罪剧。对吧？因为你会觉得，哦，这部剧要播两小时，最后可能会有正义得到伸张。我们会看到正义实现，法律会发挥作用。好人会这样做，坏人会被抓住，而且剧情还很简洁，有明确的是非对错。

I mean, I I like watching people try to figure out things that but the big picture I find quite overwhelming and and could get I mean, I think this is why people like crime shows so much. Right? Because you're just like, oh, there's this is gonna last for two hours and there could be some justice at the end. We're gonna get some justice and the law will play out. The good guys will do this and the bad guys will get caught and, you know, and it's also neat and and there's a right and a wrong.

如今我们生活在一个...你知道，迪克·切尼教会我们一件事：没有因果报应，不是每个人都会得到应有的惩罚。你可能会被鸟枪打到脸，但你会活下来。所以我觉得这些大政治让我很压抑，而那些小政治，比如'我能把这个包裹寄出去吗？''不行，你没有正确的表格'之类的反而...

Now we live in a time of, you know, you're not, you know if one thing Dick Cheney taught us, there's not karma and you don't get not everyone gets their comeuppance, you know. It's you might take some birdshot to the face, but you're not really but you'll survive it. So, you know, I think I get overwhelmed with that, but with small politics that are, you know, on the level of, you know, can I get this package mailed? No. You don't have the right forms or whatever.

你得沟通...我是说，我不喜欢陷入无尽的否定中。我喜欢看到人们努力解决问题，就像加州初选的政治，他们其实解决不了，因为存在等级制度。如果你在底层，就永远在底层；如果在顶层，很可能一直留在顶层。但在这之间存在着美，这种美的一部分是艺术和友谊，生活中也有美好存在。

You gotta talk just I mean, I don't like getting caught up in endless no. I don't like that. I like I like when people are trying to work stuff out and it seems like there's diff they might be able to, you know, it makes you or, you know, like the politics in First Cal, they don't really work it out because there's like a hierarchy and, you know, if you're on the bottom rung, you're on the bottom rung, and if you're on the top rung, you probably get to stay on the top rung. But that there's beauty in between that and one of the part of that beauty is art and friendship and and, you know, the other things are there's beauty in life too. You know?

而且...天啊。她真的在节目里说到这个了。是的。谢谢你接受采访，凯莉。

There's and oh, boy. She's really in the show with that. Yeah. Thanks for talking to us, Kelly.

是的，这是个不错的结束点。当你谈到如此喜欢协商各种问题的细节时，我不禁想你是否特别适合做独立电影人。因为在你的职业生涯中，想必遇到过很多问题，比如怎么做饼干，从哪里弄来做饼干的牛奶。我好奇的是，按自己的方式做饼干同时还要弄到牛奶有多难？现在变得更容易还是更难了？

Yeah. That is a nice place to end. I I guess I but when you talk about how much you like the details of negotiating various issues, it makes me wonder if you're then particularly suited to be an independent filmmaker, because I would imagine over your career, you've had a lot of questions of, you know, how to make biscuits and where to get the the milk from for for those biscuits. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, how difficult has that been to make your biscuits your way but still get milk for them? And is it getting any easier, or is it getting harder?

不，现在对我来说比过去容易多了。没有什么比九十年代更难了，当年轻女导演简直难到疯狂。现在我有一群合作很久的伙伴，我们有共同语言，有深厚的合作关系，比如我的助理导演克里斯·布拉维尔（其实不是'我的'），克里斯·卡罗尔，制片人乔纳森·雷蒙德等人。这个小团队让一切都变简单了。

No. It's easier for me than it used to be. Like, nothing was harder than the nineties, or being a young female director was insanely hard, and and yeah. And now I have a group of people I've been working with for a long time and that I have a common language with, and I have deep deep collaborate collaboration with, and, you know, Chris Blavel, my assistant director or the assistant director is not mine. Chris Carroll, Jonathan Raymond, my producers, I mean, a lot of people that I've been working with for a long time or a small group of people I've been working with for a long time that makes everything easier.

而且我现在年纪大了。老实说，我老了。所以'年长'这个身份盖过了'女性'身份，我觉得这样反而好。

And I'm I'm older now. I'm old. Let's face it. I'm old. And so I don't have to like it that trumps being a woman, I think.

你知道，就像，我不需要解释为什么我在场或为什么我负责某事。说实话，这对我来说比以前容易多了。我有一份很好的教书工作，这让生活更轻松。我喜欢我的工作，所以不是所有压力都在电影事业上。我可以讲述我想讲的故事，而且我没有家庭要养。

You know, like, you know, I don't have to explain why I'm around or why I might be in charge of something. I, you know, I've like so it's easier for me than it used to be if I'm honest. And I have a really good teaching job and that's makes life easier. I I have a job I like, so all the weight isn't on my filmmaking career. I can make the stories I wanna tell and I I don't have I don't have a family to feed.

只有我自己。开销也不大。所以对我来说，如果不看这个世界，生活会更轻松。你懂我的意思吗？就我个人而言，在这个年纪拍电影比年轻时容易多了。

It's just me. I got like a little overhead. So I I life is easier for me if I don't look at the world. You know what I mean? Like, personally, for me, life is like making films at this age is easier than it was when I was younger.

非常感谢凯莉参与我们的节目。刚才发言的是凯莉·莱卡特。她的新片是《策划者》。请在苹果播客、SoundCloud、Spotify或其他播客平台订阅我们的节目。如果你喜欢这个节目，请在苹果播客上给我们评分，帮助我们扩大影响力，我们也很想听到你的反馈。

Thank you so much, Kelly, for being with us. That was Kelly Reichardt. Her new film is The Mastermind. Subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you like the show, please rate us on Apple Podcast to help us get the word out, and we'd love to hear from you.

《实验室广播时间》的制作人是梅迪亚·奥切尔、凯特·沃尔夫、埃里克·纽曼、玛丽·克诺夫和乔纳森·希夫莱特，后者还负责了我们节目的混音和剪辑。创始执行制作人是艾伦·明斯基。开场音乐由伊莫金、蒂斯利和沃顿创作并演奏。

The producers of the Lab Radio Hour are Medea Ocher, Kate Wolf, Eric Newman, and Mary Knopf and Jonathan Shifflett, who also mixed and edited our show. Our founding executive producer is Alan Minsky. Our intro music was written and performed by Imogen, Teasley, Vaughton.