与杰·曼纽尔共饮ANTM茶

他是一位享誉国际的化妆师和创意总监，其作品曾登上《Vogue》《Harper's Bazaar》和《Elle》的封面，与时尚界和好莱坞的一些最知名人士合作。

He's an internationally renowned makeup artist and creative director whose work has graced the covers of Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, and Elle, working with some of the biggest names in fashion and Hollywood.

他曾主持过《Style Her Famous》，出现在《Fashion Police》和《加拿大明日超模》节目中，甚至还撰写了一本小说《明天、假发、婊子和崩溃》，这本书源于他在行业中的经历，我真希望它能被拍成迷你剧。

He's hosted Style Her Famous, appeared on on Fashion Police, and Canada's Next Top Model, and he even authored the novel that I need to get turned into a miniseries, Tomorrow, The Wig, The Bitch, and The Meltdown, inspired by his experiences in the industry.

今天，我们要深入探讨《美国下一顶超模》背后的真实故事、它的遗产，以及随着这部Netflix纪录片的播出，现在究竟发生了什么。

Today, are diving into the real story behind America's Next Top Model, its legacy, and what the hell is happening now that this docuseries on Netflix is out.

有请来到《Lady Gang》播客的嘉宾，杰伊·曼努埃尔。

Please welcome to the Lady Gang podcast, Jay Manuel.

欢迎。

Welcome.

我是迈克。

I'm Mike.

欢迎。

Welcome.

谢谢凯尔蒂的介绍。

Thanks, Kelty, for that introduction.

贝卡，杰克，说实话，现在这一切简直像一场疯狂的旋风。

Becca, Jack, you know, honestly, it is it is an insane whirlwind right now.

我的意思是，凯尔蒂，你对好莱坞和事物突然爆红并不陌生。

I mean, look, Kelty, you're no stranger to Hollywood and things blowing up.

我可以从奈飞家族的角度来说。

I I can speak from the Netflix family.

他们知道这部作品会风靡全球。

They knew that this would reach around the world.

这就是为什么他们选择全球同步上线，而他们并不是对所有产品都这么做。

That's why they chose to do a worldwide launch, which they don't do with all their products.

他们进行了全球发布。

They launched it worldwide.

在48小时内，我们在全球每个国家都登上了榜首。

And in forty eight hours, we were number one in every country around the world.

我当时真的不知道该怎么理解这件事。

I just like, I didn't know what to think make of that.

我的天，这太疯狂了。

I mean, is so wild.

而且我根本没想到他们会放这么多内容进去。

And I don't think I was expecting everything that they put in there.

我有个问题想问你。

I have a question for you.

他们是怎么联系你的？

Like, how did they approach you about it?

因为这看起来很像是一次揭露性报道。

Because it's very much sort of like an expose.

他们当时跟你说的是这个角度吗？

Like, is that the angle that they were telling you?

他们有没有告诉你泰拉会参与其中？或者当时是什么感觉？

Did they tell you Tyra is going to be involved or like, what was the vibe?

你知道吗，杰克，这是个很好的问题。

You know, Jack, that's a great question.

当我接到第一个电话时，那是2024年的事了。当时因为我的小说在疫情期间大受欢迎，那也是我最后一次和凯尔西交谈，我们做了一次关于此事的大型采访。

When I got the first call and we're going back to 2024, at that point, because my novel had really taken off in in the pandemic, that's when the last time I spoke with Kelsey, we did a big interview about that.

从那以后，每年都有来自各大制片厂的制作人联系我，大概每年会有两到三次电话。

And then producers from major studios about every year after that, would say, like, two to three calls came in.

他们想拍一部关于顶级模特的大型纪录片。

Like, we wanna do this huge top model documentary.

但我每次都直接拒绝了。

But I literally said no every time.

第一次接到电话时，我说不，因为我感觉这会是一部抹黑我的作品。

The first call, no, because I got the sense it was gonna be a takedown piece.

但2024年这次的电话不一样。

This call was different in 2024.

执行制片人杰森·比克曼提出了一个充满激情的提案，我对他说：你知道吗？

The executive producer, Jason Beakman, had this this passionate pitch, and I said to him, you know what?

当时我们是在电话里交谈的。

This was on the phone.

所以我问他：你想喝杯茶吗？

So I said, do you wanna have tea?

你很快会来纽约吗？

Are you gonna be in New York soon?

他回答：是的。

And he's like, yes.

我将在纽约待两周。

I'm in New York two weeks.

我们坐下来聊聊吧。

Let's sit down.

那次谈话持续了三个小时。

And that was a three hour sit down.

在那次交谈中，我真正感受到他希望创造一个安全的空间，让我们进行对话和庆祝，而不是搞打压。因为我确实相信，而且当时就告诉他：我对打压文化毫无兴趣，也绝不认为这个时代应该妖魔化专制。

And in that conversation, I really found the confidence that he was looking to create a safe space where we can have a conversation and a celebration, not a takedown, because I certainly believed, and I told him right then, I'm not interested in takedown culture, and I certainly do not think tyranny is to be vilified at this time.

所以，如果我们真要谈，那当然可以。

So if we're going to have a conversation, sure.

就在那时，我签了约，一周后奈飞就批准了这个项目。

And, so I signed on at that point, and Netflix greenlit it one week later.

完全在泰拉不知情的情况下批准了。

Fully greenlit without Tyra knowing.

我认为今天这件事登上了《纽约时报》，因为我们所有人都接受了相关采访。

And I think today it came out in the New York Times because we all did an interview for that.

他们确认奈飞表示，这个项目是在泰拉没有参与的情况下批准的。

And they they confirm that Netflix said they greenlit this without Tyra's participation.

他们觉得讲述这个故事很重要。

They felt it was important to have this story.

所以，如果她愿意参与，那再好不过。

So if she chose to participate, great.

如果她不愿意，他们也会百分之百继续推进。

If she didn't, they were 100% moving forward.

因此，她直到我们实际开始拍摄这部纪录片时才得知这件事。

So she didn't learn about this doc until we were actually shooting it in production.

哇哦。

Woah.

哇。

Wow.

杰，我们有多大可能做到这里？

Jay, what are the chances that we can get like here?

是这样的，我们看了之后觉得，2000年代简直太疯狂了。

Here's what it is, is that we we watched it and we were like, oh, the in two thousands were so crazy.

那时候有好多事情。

Like there was all of that.

然后就是看着泰拉逐渐疏离。

And then there was like watching Tyra disassociate.

接着是深层次的部分，我想先从一些积极的事情说起。

And then there was the deep, which I want to start with something really positive.

那就是三个男孩之间深厚的爱。

There was the deep love of the three boys.

我们真的重新爱上了这三个男孩。

Like, we re fell in love with the trio of boys.

求求你们，告诉我们你们会给我们一些东西吧。

Please tell me that we are getting something with you guys.

我真的不在乎是什么，是电视剧、播客、纪录片，还是跟拍节目。

Like, I don't care what it is a TV show a podcast a docu series a follow along.

说实话，我完全没想到你们在那个节目里的时候，关系居然这么好。

Literally like I the friendship I had no idea when you guys were on that show that you were that good of friends.

看着你们和杰小姐在一起，我的冷酷之心都暖化了。

And watching you with miss Jay, I mean, it like, my cold dead heart was warm.

你的心才不是冷酷的呢。

You don't have a cold dead heart.

别说了。

Stop it.

不过，我知道你对杰小姐的这份情意，我永远都会感激他。

But, you know, I I I appreciate the sentiment, you know, with miss Jay, and I I will forever credit him.

我是在拍摄第一季时认识他的。

I met him, when we started shooting cycle one.

当然，我之前就听说过他，但从未见过面。

I knew of him beforehand, of course, but I'd never met him before.

所以我是通过拍节目认识他的。

So I met him shooting the show.

从一开始，我们就自然而然地进入了这种轻松有趣的互动氛围。

And kind of immediately, we fell into this kind of this kind of fun banter vibe.

但对我来说，与杰先生真正的情感纽带在于，我们作为公开的同性恋男性、同时又是有色人种，获得了登上电视的机会。

But for me, the real emotional hook to Miss Jay was we were being given this opportunity as openly gay men to be on TV and both men of color.

杰先生穿着高跟鞋、内裤和T恤，大大方方地走来走去，他给了我勇气去真实地做自己，我可以依靠他。

And, you know, Jay being super flamboyant walking around in heels and panties and a T shirt, he gave me the permission to authentically be myself, and I could lean on him.

我觉得纪录片里甚至收录了我关于这一点的一句台词，因为这对我而言太重要了。

And I think the doc, they even have one of my lines speaking about that because that was so important to me.

在他所处的那个时代，电视上几乎没有LGBTQ+群体的代表，他让我能够勇敢表达，这真的非常重要。

He allowed me to at a time when there was no representation on television, speaking of the LGBTQ plus community, that was really important.

当时我们有没有想过自己正在开辟道路、进行代表呢？

Now did we think we were paving the way and representing?

没有。

No.

我们当时并没有这样想，但我永远感激他给了我这个机会，让我做真实的自己，并与他相互呼应。

We weren't thinking that at the time, but I will forever credit him for giving me that opportunity just to be myself and bounce off him.

然后是奈杰尔，实际上是我亲自在我客厅里为他做的试镜，并向电视台推荐了他。

And then Nigel, you know, I was the one who actually did his screen test in my living room and pitched him to the network.

哇。

Wow.

这是第二季的事。

It's for cycle two.

每个人都问我，那个录像带在哪？

Everyone's asked me, like, where's the tape?

当时我确实是用那种老式的DV摄像机拍的。

The thing was I did shoot it on, like, a like, ignore those DV cams we used to have.

所以我真的把录像带寄出去了。

So I actually sent the tape.

我没想着复制一份，就直接寄给了电视台。

I didn't think to duplicate it, and I sent it to the network.

所以我现在没有那盘录像带了，不过……

So I don't have the tape, but now

你可以去问奈杰尔，当你和他交谈的时候。

you can ask Nigel when you speak to him.

我是在客厅里给他拍的，我是通过另一个朋友和同事认识他的。

I shot him in my living room, and, I had met him through another friend and colleague.

所以奈杰尔和我在节目中成了朋友，还有和杰小姐，那种联系真的非常特别。

And so Nigel and I became friends on the show and with miss Jay and and, you know, to to that bond was really special.

但真正特别的是，今天我们作为成年人所处的位置。

But what what what is really special is where we sit today as, you know, grown adults.

奈杰尔，我支持他的事业，我们经常通电话，他也支持我的事情。

And Nigel, you know, I support his endeavors, and I see him and we talk on the phone all the time, and he supports my things.

但当他第一次看到这部纪录片时，我们所有人都在它播出前看过了，他给我打了电话，说了最感人的一番话。

But when he saw the documentary for the first time, and we all saw it before it came out, he called me and he said the most emotional thing.

顺便说一下，我还没跟任何人分享过这件事。

I've not shared this with anyone, by the way.

所以你们现在听到的是独家内幕。

So you guys are getting the scoop.

他跟我说：‘哇。’

He he said to me, wow.

我问他：‘你觉得怎么样？’

And I said, what did you think?

他第一句话并不是关于这部纪录片的。

And his first words were not about the doc.

他说：‘杰，我之前真的没有完全理解你的立场和你当时经历的一切，因为我从不八卦。’

His words were, Jay, I really didn't fully understand your position and what you were going through then because I'm not a gossip.

任何了解我的人都知道，我不是个爱八卦的人。

Anyone who knows me, I'm not a gossip.

我当时对泰拉忠心耿耿，一直坚守着一切。

Like, I was loyal, tried and true with Tyra and and was just holding everything.

直到今天，我仍知道很多关于她的私密往事，但我永远不会说出口，因为那属于个人隐私。

And even still to this day, I know a lot of personal things in the skeletons, which I will never reveal because that's personal.

但他对我说，真希望当时我能像现在这样成为你的朋友。

But he said to me, I wish I could have been the friend that I am with you now then.

他 literally 告诉我，我当场就流下了眼泪。

And literally, he told me that tears went in my eyes.

后来我给他写了一封信，他说，每一句话都发自内心。

I wrote him this note afterwards, And he said, meant every word of it.

对我来说，这简直难以置信——你居然说……

And that to me is just like, I couldn't believe Well, you said

我记得在纪录片里，你被逼着回去，那种尴尬的循环，你当时在做什么。

I remember in the documentary when you got like blackmailed back into going and it was that really awkward, like cycle of what you were doing.

他就说，我觉得当时一定有什么事情在发生。

And he was just like, I think that there was something going on.

但说实话，我当时真不知道，他只是在观察而已。

But like, I had I didn't really know, like, all he was doing is observing.

所以你不得不把这一切都藏在心里，这真是太疯狂了。

So that's so crazy that you had to keep all of that to yourself.

这简直是我见过的最不可思议的事之一，居然要一个人承受这么多。

Like, that is one of the wildest things I've ever seen somebody have to do.

我简直无法想象。

Like, I can't even imagine.

确实如此。

It's so true.

如果这事发生在我身上，我会告诉每一个人，我肯定会告诉Crafty。

If this had happened to me, I would have told every single person on that I would have told Crafty.

为你点赞，因为这是一种非常成熟和睿智的处事方式。

Like, good for you because that is a very grown up and evolved way of operating.

这可能就是你在这个行业能如此长久的原因，但把这一切憋在心里一定非常艰难，真的非常艰难。

It's probably why you've had so much longevity in this business, but that must have been really hard, really, really hard to hold in.

这真的非常困难。

It was it was very difficult.

我知道，凯尔蒂，几年前我们简单聊过，但即使那时，我也还没准备好谈论所有事情。

I know, Kelty, we spoke about it briefly a few years ago, but even then, I wasn't really in the space to talk about everything.

从那以后，我经历了更多的疗愈。

And I've since done even a lot of healing.

所以当我坐下来为这部纪录片做采访时，我感觉自己是从一个愈合的状态中发言的。

And so when I sat down for this interview in the documentary, I felt I was speaking from a healed space.

但我总是想澄清一下，'黑名单'这个词根本就没被使用过。

But I like to always clarify the word blacklist wasn't even used.

但如果我要比在纪录片里说得更具体一点，你知道，我选择在第八季结束后离开。

But if I'm going to be even more specific than I was in the documentary, you know, again, I chose to leave the show after cycle eight.

是的，我离开了。

I did.

我的合同里没有续约选项，我想体面地离开，而我也确实做到了。

I had no options on my contract, I wanted to leave on really good terms, which I did.

你知道，我和泰拉有过一个约定，绝不会通过我们的员工、经纪人或律师来处理这件事。

You know, I I and and as Tyra had asked me to have this pact, never go through our people and our agents and our lawyers.

她当时在旅行，所以我没有给她打电话。

She was traveling, so that's why I didn't call her.

但我给她写了一封邮件，我们在纪录片里提到过这封邮件，制片人想看看这封邮件和她的回复，他们确实看了。

But I wrote her this email, which we talked about in the documentary, and the producers wanted to see the email and the response, which they did.

我写了封充满爱与感激的邮件，感谢她给予的机会，表达我多么兴奋能站在她身边，尤其是作为一名在这个行业中的黑人女性，帮助她成长。

I really wrote the most gracious email of love and gratitude for the opportunity and that I was so excited to have stood by her, especially as a black woman in this industry and helped lift her up.

而她，一个每天会给我打两三次电话的人，却没有任何回应，这真的让我很痛苦。

And, you know, for her not to respond from someone who would call me twice and three times a day, it was really painful.

我当时完全不知道接下来会发生什么。

And I I just didn't know what was gonna happen.

然后，我收到了她的回复。

And then I got that response.

我感到很失望。

I'm disappointed.

纪录片里没说清楚的一点是，我要说的是，我在第八季制作结束时就做了这件事。

What the doc doesn't make clear, and I'll say this, is they that I did right at the end of production of cycle eight.

所以当时他们还要等三个半月才开始第九季。

So we were they weren't going to start cycle nine for three and a half months.

所以我给了他们充足的时间去找替代人选，他们还试镜了几个候选人。

So I was giving them all the time to find a replacement, which they screen tested several people.

在纪录片里，他们展示我正在圣卢西亚度假，这是真的。

And in the doc, they show I'm on vacation in Saint Lucia, which is true.

但那是在他们第一次联系我之前，我已经离开制作现场两个半月了。

But that was two and a half weeks out of production for them when they first contacted me.

顺便说一句，肯·莫克不是制片人。

By the way, Ken Mock, not a producer.

在她发过那封邮件之后，就再也没人联系过我。

Nobody contacted me after that one email from her.

天啊。

Oh my god.

然后就彻底没音讯了。

And then just radio silent.

他们要换掉你。

They're replacing you.

我被甩了。

I'm out.

就在最后一刻，他们却说：请回来吧。

And then right at the last minute, they're like, please come back.

必须得回去。

Have to go back.

事情就这么发生了。

Happened.

其实这是来自母公司商务部门的指示。

Well it was and it came from, business affairs from the parent network.

他们说：凯尔西，我知道你会理解这一点。

And they they said and and, Kelsey, I know you'll appreciate this.

当时的情况是，因为我那时正在做《时尚警察》和E!频道的时尚报道工作。

The way it worked because because obviously, at that time, I was doing fashion police and, you know, the fashion correspondence for E and and on style.

所以那时候，E!频道说，我们想让你为我们做点别的东西。

And so at that time, E was like, we'd like you to do something else with us.

当时我们正在讨论一个项目，而我已经做出了承诺。

So there was a project we were talking about, and I had made a commitment.

你知道那是什么情况。

And you know how it is.

你们在谈合同的时候，你就已经做出了承诺。

You make a commitment while you guys are working on the deal.

就在那时，《超模大赛》邀请我回归第九季，我的律师回绝了，说杰伊，我有承诺在先。

That is when Top Model asked me to come back for cycle nine, and my lawyer went back saying, Jay, as a commitment.

他们以为这只是娱乐圈里大家常玩的那套把戏。

Now they thought it was that entertainment, you know, game that everyone plays.

但我有承诺在先。

I have a commitment.

你是为了大笔钱在坚持。

You're holding up for big money.

只要

Like, as long as

一份合同。

a contract.

对。

Right.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

情况并非如此，因为作为承诺，他不能回来。

That was not the case because it was just like, unfortunately, as a commitment, he can't come back.

我们并没有试图谈判。

We weren't trying to negotiate.

那时他们立即回绝了，并表示我们几乎可以保证他不会在我们的任何广播平台上工作。

That's when they came right back with and said, we would pretty much guarantee he would not work on any of our airwaves.

这本质上就是一种黑名单威胁。

And that in essence is blacklisting the threat of.

是的。

Yeah.

当你三十多岁的时候，你的职业轨迹就在这里。

And when you're in your thirties, your career trajectory is here.

这让我吓得魂飞魄散。

I it struck the fear of God in me.

这就是答案。

And that's the answer.

真的，我当时是出于恐惧在行事。

Truly, I operated from a place of fear at that time.

我回去后才发现，我到场时，她除非摄像机在拍摄，否则根本不理我。

And I went back and that's when I learned I showed up on set and she was not going to speak to me unless cameras were rolling.

我当时只是……我僵住了。

I was I I just I froze.

所以第一次我在镜头前说话时，泰拉意识到我没有出声。

So the first time I spoke on camera, Tyra realized I wasn't speaking.

于是她搂住我，说：‘天啊，杰先生。’

So she put her arm around me and said, oh my god, mister Jay.

她真的这么做了。

And did it did it.

那就是我知道在镜头开启时该怎样和她互动的原因。

That's how I knew to just play with her when the cameras rolled.

即使摄像机关闭换磁带时，她背对着我，也不回应我任何话。

And when the cameras even shut off to change tape, her back was to me, and she would not answer anything.

我看到这一幕时，脊背发凉。

That chills down my spine when I watched that.

我知道。

I know.

我当时就觉得，我完全感受到了你的焦虑、恐惧、紧张和恐慌，这可能是最糟糕的处境之一了。

And I'm like, I just like felt your anxiety and like, just the fear and the nerves and the panic like, that might be one of the worst positions to ever be put in.

而且你还在被拍摄。

And you're being filmed.

我真的无法想象。

Like, I can't even imagine.

我参与过那么多节目，经历过那么多艰难的环境，比如现场直播电视等等。

I've worked I've worked on so many shows and so many difficult environments like live event television and everything.

但我告诉你，那些都只是有压力的环境。

And I'll tell you, those were just pressure environments.

我会称它们为健康的工作娱乐压力环境。

I would call them healthy work entertainment pressure environments.

但这个环境完全不同，而且不健康。

This environment was something completely different and unhealthy.

但现在粉丝们都在问一个大问题，因为大家都在网上讨论这部纪录片：好吧。

And but then the big question fans are asking now because everybody's online about the documentary is, okay.

我们理解这一点，但你当时在那里是为了完成第18轮。

We understand this, but then you were there to cycle 18.

发生了什么？

What happened?

简而言之，我知道我回答很长，简单说就是：当我们完成那一轮后，他们来找我，说希望你能再回来四次。

In a nutshell, because I know I have long answers, the nutshell of it is when we finished that one cycle, they basically then came to me and said, well, we would like it if you could come back for four more.

我们向你保证一个安全的工作环境。

We promise you a safe work environment.

而我之前已经亲身经历过拒绝的后果。

And I'd already felt the ramifications of no before.

所以出于恐惧，我答应了，以为自己能解决所有问题。

So from a place of fear, I said yes, thinking I could fix everything.

那确实是当时我的天真。

That was definitely my naivete at the time.

我现在明白了，但这就是我回去的原因。

I understand that now, but that's why I went back.

杰克，你做了多少年了？

How many years of your go ahead, Jack?

我们太兴奋了。

We're so excited.

加油，杰克。

Go, Jack.

不，我只是想问，和泰拉相处的情况有变好吗？

No, I was just going to ask, like, it ever get better with Tyra?

事情有变得更容易吗？

Did it ever get easier?

她有没有正常地和你说话，还是总是只对着镜头？

Did she ever talk to you normally or was it always just camera on?

那只是唯一

That's the only

哦，当我同意再回来做四轮时，到了第十轮，我就觉得，哇，这真不错。

Oh, By the time I can't because I had agreed to come back for four cycles, then in cycle 10, I was like, oh, this is great.

而且，而且我们确实会聊天。

And and and it was strange, but we would talk.

我的意思是，甚至到了我记得的一个场景，纪录片里有一张照片。

It I mean, it even got to I remember, and there's a picture in the documentary.

我当时想，哇，真厉害。

I was like, oh, wow.

有一张照片里，泰拉的手搭在我身上，我穿着一件皮夹克。

There's a shot where Tyra's arm is around me, and I'm wearing this leather jacket.

我们当时其实是在阿姆斯特丹。

And we're actually in Amsterdam.

我想那应该是第12轮。

I think that was cycle 12.

我记不太清了。

I can't remember.

但她有一天给我发了条消息，那时我们正在阿姆斯特丹，她说：要不你我像以前那样，一起去吃个晚饭？

But she she sent me a message one day and we were in Amsterdam, and she said, how about we just, you and I go have dinner like old times?

我当时想，哦，好吧。

And I thought, oh, okay.

我们去吃了顿饭。

And we went and we had dinner.

虽然不像以前了，但我感觉她在努力，我们确实做到了。

It wasn't the same, but I felt like she was trying and we did.

后来我们确实聊了，不管是镜头前还是镜头后，我们能够把事情处理好，但再也回不到以前那样了。

And then we did talk, you know, off camera, on camera, and we were able to make things work, but it never went back to what it was well before that.

你们有没有谈过那封邮件或者别的什么？

And did you ever talk about the email or or anything?

从来没有。

Never.

从来没有。

Never.

这就是为什么，你知道，在拍摄纪录片的过程中，我真的很认同，我也喜欢这个过程，还有那两位导演——我本来就是他们的粉丝，也很欣赏他们的作品。

That's why, you know, for me, I really thought during the documentary and what I love about this process and these two directors who I was already a fan of and the work that they have done.

所以当我得知他们担任导演时，心想天哪，他们以新闻操守著称。

So when I found out they were directing, was like, oh my gosh, They're known for their journalistic integrity.

你知道，我们之前完全不知道这部纪录片的存在，直到他们提前把完成版展示给我们，那时我们的前期制作都快结束了。

I you know, we didn't know anything about this doc until they presented it to us, finished in advance of all our prepress.

所以我们是在很晚的时候才看到它。

So we saw it late in the game.

我根本不知道自己会出现在片子里。

I didn't know it was gonna be in it.

当我看到她对其中一位导演的反应时，这位导演名叫摩尔，她问了她一个问题，因为很明显，泰拉在纪录片里对我的评价非常正面，这让我感到受宠若惊。

And watching her reaction to one of the directors, her name is Moore, asking her because clearly Tyra speaks about me very glowingly in the documentary, which was flattering.

但当她问：‘现在是不是谈你和杰之间发生过什么事的好时机？’

But then when she asked, can or is it is now a good time to talk about what happened between you and Jay?

我们看到她非常冷淡的回答。

We see her very dismissive answer.

我现在看到网上心理学家们正在分析这个片段。

I mean, I'm seeing now psychologists breaking this down online.

你们觉得她对那个问题的回应怎么样？

What did you guys think of her response to that?

那种感觉是，你知道的，我不想坐在这儿说她的坏话。

That felt, you know, I don't wanna sit here and bad mouth her.

我不了解她。

I don't know her.

我们看到的只是她的一面，但这是我的纸上谈兵之见。

We got like this version of her and but this is my armchair opinion.

那一刻，她显得很反社会。

I that moment was sociopathic.

当一个人和深爱多年的人闹翻时，无论是否还保持联系，都应该有恰当的反应，而她给出的完全不是那样的。

It felt very much like anybody that has a falling out with someone they deeply love for so many years, there's an appropriate reaction whether or not you're still attached or whatever that is, and that was not what she was giving.

当我听到他们谈论那个牙齿缝隙被强行并拢的人时，我也产生了同样的寒意，那个人是丹尼吗？

And it was the same feeling I got, a chill down my spine, when they were talking about, was it Danny who had the gap in her teeth pushed together?

是的。

Mhmm.

当泰拉说她曾与经纪人交谈，是经纪人告诉她牙齿根本不可能成功时，我立刻转过身去。

When Tyra says the line about how she was talking to agents and they were the ones telling her that the teeth would never work, I was like, I turned.

我当时就觉得，她说话的方式、她撒谎的样子，还有我清楚地知道她在胡说八道，真的让我很反感。

I was like, that the way she said it, the way she lied, the way I know she's full of shit, it really did.

我其实想支持她。

I wanted to, like, root for her.

我希望她不要被击垮、被拖垮。

I wanted her to not be, like, taken down and dragged.

但那两个瞬间，我感觉不对劲，不行。

But those two moments I felt were like, no.

你确实配得上你所得到的一切。

You've actually deserved what you've been given.

这对我来说就是真实的感觉。

It is what it felt for me.

很难去说，我想说点关于她的正面评价，因为我觉得现在外面负面声音太多了。

It was hard to you know, and I want to say something positive about her because I think there's so much negative out there.

最终，在《超模》节目之前，我就已经和她一起工作，建立了这段友谊。

Ultimately, well before Model, I had developed, you know, we worked together and developed this friendship.

我很快意识到，我们之间存在着一种非常奇怪的权力关系。

And I realized early on there was a very weird power dynamic.

因为泰拉几乎没有几个亲密的朋友，也很少让谁真正走进她的内心。对我而言，如今回过头看，虽然我明白她并不是我那种死党，但毕竟还是个朋友。

Because Tyra has so few close friends and so few people that she lets in For me, and I understand now, years later, even though I recognize she wasn't like one of my BFFs, but a friend nonetheless.

但对她来说，我真的是她的知心人。

But to her, I was really her confidant.

所以直到今天，所有关于她私生活的提问，大家都来问我，但永远不会从我这里泄露出去，因为我不是那种人。

And that's why still to this day, all of her private business, which everyone is asking me, it'll never come out because I'm not that person.

我可以谈谈我的亲身经历。

I can speak about my experiences.

对。

Right.

但最终，我希望她能展现出我所认识的那个脆弱的女人——那个有伤痛、有不安的女人。

But ultimately, I wish she had brought the vulnerable woman that I know who has wounds, who has insecurities.

如果她在纪录片中展现出真实的泰拉，我认为即使她给出完全相同的回答，世界也会对她更加接纳。说实话，我觉得人们几乎是在拒绝这种过于精致的形象，而我知道泰拉本来有一种特定的电视人格，但这次展现的版本甚至比那还要有趣。

If she had brought the true Tyra to this documentary, I think the world would have been far more receptive to her even if she gave the identical answers, to be honest But with we just that I think people are are are almost rejecting this polished, almost and I know Tyra to have a certain TV personality, but this was a really interesting version of even that.

她

She

接受过大量的媒体训练。

was so media trained.

在娱乐行业，我们总是这么说，之前在播客里也说过无数次了。

Well, we always say in like entertainment and we've said this a zillion times on the podcast.

你一旦成名，情感上就会停滞在成名时的年龄，对吧？

You get stunted at the age you get famous, right?

所以她当时就像个模特，年纪轻轻就……

So she was like this model in whatever.

17岁的时候，她在米兰独自打拼，而那个年龄，就是她如今情感上的年龄。

At 17 years old, she's in Milan and she's on her own and like that is the age, the emotional age in which, you know, that she is now.

然后你再叠加上巨大的权力，对吧？

Like so, you know, when and then you get on top of that, you get this great power, right?

你太有影响力了。

Like you're so powerful.

你有权决定节目是否开播。

You have the power to you have green light shows.

你在赚钱。

You're making the money.

你是明星。

You're the star.

你就是那个人。

You're the person.

而你身边全是只会说好的人，依我看，她能有你这样的朋友杰伊，已经很幸运了，至今仍是。

And you all you have is yes men around you, and she was lucky, in my opinion, to have a friend like you, Jay, and still is.

因为听着，以你被对待的方式，还有你被威胁的方式，我也会说些实话。

Because listen, with the way you were treated and the way you were, you know, threatened, I would be telling shit too.

但她情感上不成熟，从未真正长大。

But you know, she's emotionally stunted and she's never had to grow up.

所以她没有经历过二十多岁的那段混乱岁月，没有学会如何做一个好朋友，如何处理朋友间的争吵之类的。像你这样非常有影响力的大明星，往往都非常孤立。

So she didn't go through her twenties, her messy twenties and figuring out how to be a good friend and how to, you know, having friendship fights and stuff like, if you're a lot of these stars that are so powerful, the biggest stars in the world, they're very isolated.

但我认为这更多是自恋，而不是不成熟。

I think it's more narcissism than immaturity though.

因为她从不承认自己有任何过错。

Because she never admits any fault on her end.

一次都没有。

Never once.

对吧。

Right.

每一个人都曾有过这样的时刻，甚至肯也说过，我回想起。

Every single person, even Ken, at one point was like, I look back in

就是那一次。

that that one.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

是的。

Right.

是的。

Right.

当一个人连一点责任都不愿承担，也不肯承认自己错了，这真的非常能说明问题，我敢肯定这就是自恋者的定义，所以我觉得我可能

It's really like, it's really telling when somebody cannot take one ounce of responsibility or admit to being wrong, and I'm pretty sure that is the definition of a narcissist, so I think that I maybe

我觉得对我来说，真正的问题在于纪录片的结尾，应该是第三集，她说：‘我还没见过Miss J。’

think the real issue for me was when at the end of the documentary, think it's episode three, and she's like talk she's like, oh, I haven't seen Miss J.

我还没去看过Miss J。

I haven't gone to see Miss J.

然后她说：‘我不希望我的遗产是《超级名模》。’

And then she was like, I don't want my legacy to be top model.

我希望我的遗产是冰淇淋。

I want my legacy to be ice cream.

我当时说，宝贝，

And I was like, babe,

你这是纪录片里的内容。

you're doc.

这不在纪录片里。

That's not in the doc.

其实不是的。

That's actually no.

那是到处都在播的一个片段。

That's that's a that's a clip that's running everywhere.

这不在纪录片里。

That's not in the doc.

或者她确实提到了她。

Or or or she does talk about her.

哦，不是的。

Oh, no.

你说得对。

You're right.

她在纪录片中确实谈到了她的遗产是冰淇淋。

She does talk about her her legacy being ice cream in the documentary.

你只需要

All you had

去医院就行。

to do was go to the hospital.

你只需要走进医院。

All you had to do was walk in the hospital.

过去的事了。

Bygone

在法官旁边。

be by the judge.

她称呼杰西卡女士。

She address miss J.

这就是为什么我当时觉得，J女士说她没有去探望他，但我相信泰拉在采访中根本不会回应这个问题。

That that's why I was like, miss J says that she doesn't she hadn't come visit him, but I believe Tyra wouldn't even answer that in her interview.

所以你才在纪录片里听不到泰拉关于她没有去J女士身边的任何回应，原因就在这儿。

That's why you don't have an a Tyra answer even in the documentary about It's her not going to the just miss Jay's side that you're hearing.

你知道吗？

Know what?

这个人正在死去，或者说我该说，谢天谢地。

This person is dying and or, I mean, thank God

他正在死去。

he's dying.

我正好在他从昏迷中醒来的那一刻在场，这一点我在采访中说错了。

I I was there right when he woke up from his coma, which I've misspoken in interview.

上面写的是五个月。

It says five months.

其实是五周。

It was five weeks.

但那周我在那里，因为我觉得那是我最后一次见到这个人，说实话。

But I was there that week because I thought this was the last time I've seen this man, honestly.

是的。

Yeah.

你走进去，别管合同或发生了什么，握住他们的手，说‘我爱你’。

You walk in, who cares the contracts, the whatever happened, you grab their hand and you say, love you.

天啊。

Oh my god.

这才是一个真正的人该做的事。

Like, that is what a human being does.

这对我来说太震撼了。

That was wild to me.

你认为他或她现在会主动联系他吗？毕竟现在有这么多（不是负面舆论，而是这么多关注）？

Do you think that he or she is gonna reach out to him now that there's like all this, not backlash, but all of this?

不会。

No.

哦，你知道，我无法评论泰拉现在会怎么做。

Oh, you know, I can't speak to, I, you know, I can't speak to what Tyra's gonna do now.

我只能想象她正处于危机模式中。

I'd I can only imagine she is in crisis mode.

我知道她还有一场诉讼，必须在有限的时间内作出回应。

I know there's also this lawsuit that she has to answer within the next there's, like, a limited period of time.

但她迟早得出来回应一些这些问题，这将会非常有趣。

But she's gonna have to come out at some point and address some of this, and it'll be very interesting.

全世界都会关注，因为

The world will be watching because

是的。

Yeah.

我不想评论她会怎么做。

She's I don't wanna speak to what she'll do.

她可能会承担全部责任。

She may take the blame.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你希望你的友谊发生什么变化？

What do you hope happens for you, for your friendship?

如果泰拉能弥补一切，嗯。

If Tyra could make it right Mhmm.

现在泰拉和杰伊之间会是什么样子？

Right now between Tyra and Jay, what would that look like?

你能原谅她吗？

And could you forgive her?

嗯，我已经明白，真正的宽恕来自于放下内心的负担。

Well, I've already forgiveness really comes about when you let go of the stress out of your own body.

在拍这部纪录片之前，我就已经达到了那个境界。

I had to reach that point before this documentary.

所以，正如我所说，我理解她的痛苦从何而来，至于她最终是什么样的性格类型，我就留给心理学家去分析了。

So like I said, I understand where a lot of her pain comes from and whatever her personality type ultimately is, which I'll leave to the psychologist to break down.

那是她自己需要去完成的工作，找到属于自己的疗愈。

That's on her to do that work and finding that healing for herself.

但对我来说，我必须学会原谅并放手。

But for me, I've had to forgive and let go.

我依然深深珍惜自己与《超级模特》这段经历以及那个机会。

I'm also very much still embracing my history with Top Model and that opportunity.

但就像每一个踏入这个行业的人一样，总有人给了你一个机会。

But like everyone who steps into this industry, someone gives you an opportunity.

所以对于那些说‘哦，泰拉提携了你，你就该对她忠心不二直到永远’的人，

So for those who say, oh, well, Tyra lifted you up, you should be ride or die till the end.

不。

No.

就像泰拉成就了泰拉一样。

The same way Tyra made Tyra.

我是在那个节目中成就了自己的。

I made myself on that show.

否则，我不可能在那里，而且在那些早期的周期里，我还在担任制片工作。

Otherwise, I wouldn't have been there, and I was producing as well in all those early cycles.

同样的道理。

Same way.

在她职业生涯的某个阶段，有人给了泰拉一个机会，而她也靠自己做到了。

Someone gave Tyra an opportunity at one point in her career, and she did herself.

所以我说这些，是想表达：关于我们的关系，我真心愿意带着爱和身边的朋友继续前行。

So I say all this to say, in terms of our relationship, I I would I'm fine truly moving forward with the with the with the love and my friends that are around me.

在我的人生中，我不需要任何地方去重新建立这种联系。

I don't need in any place in my life for that reconnection.

我觉得，也许我们能进行一场真诚的对话，那会很好。

I think it would be lovely for us to have a genuine conversation, maybe.

我对此持开放态度，但我不认为这会重新点燃什么。

And I'm open to that, but I don't think that would rekindle anything.

而且我不知道她是否愿意进行一场真正坦诚的对话，直面自己。

And I don't know if she's open to have a real conversation where she looks herself.

我认为她无法诚实地回答纪录片中提出的问题，是因为她根本没有答案。

I think the reason she can't answer honestly the question that's posed to her in the doc is that she doesn't have an answer.

你看。

Like, look.

我们根本没有吵过架。

We had no fight.

我们也没有闹翻。

We had no falling out.

我只是在我合法有权离开节目的时候离开了。

I just left a show at a time when I was legally allowed to leave a show.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，她生气的就只是这个。

I mean, what does that that's all she's mad at.

现在，你可能会觉得这是当面羞辱。

Now, might see that as a slap in the face.

我不知道，因为她从未向我表达过这一点。

I don't know because she's never expressed that to me.

我认为这样的人真的很享受在人际关系中掌握主导权，无论是恋爱关系还是友谊。

I think people like that really enjoy having a power dynamic anyone in their lives, whether it's romantic, friendship.

所以，如果你离开了节目，你在专业层面上就不再需要她了，她可能害怕失去那种类似上司的掌控感，因为你之前作为化妆师和她一起工作时，一直处于她的掌控之下。

So, if you were to leave the show, you no longer needed her on a professional level, and she probably was afraid to lose the dynamic of kind of being your boss, in a sense, because you also went from working together as a makeup artist, and it was like always under the thumb in a bit.

我想知道，珍妮丝·迪克森在哪里？

And I wanna know, where was Janice Dickinson?

你知道，我们在这整个过程中根本没人告诉我们谁会参与。

You know, I had no I we were not again, throughout this process, we were not told who was participating.

这是为了保证新闻的客观性，这样团队才能互相核对信息。

And that is so that for journalistic integrity, you know, the team could do You could their compare notes.

但我们无法互相核对信息。

And we couldn't compare notes.

所以我们都被迫签署了极其严格、严格的保密协议。

So we were all put in these these extremely strict, strict NDAs.

我们最初被邀请参与这个项目时，只有杰、奈杰尔和我知道自己会参加。

The only people because we were initially approached for this green lighting was obviously Jay, Nigel and I knew that we were participating.

实际上，没有什么可比较的。

And really, was nothing to compare.

我们只是在分享自己的故事，所以在采访前根本没讨论过这件事。

We were just sharing our stories, so we didn't even talk about it before our interviews.

但我们完全不知道其他人的参与情况。

But we were not told about anybody else.

我很高兴这部纪录片中有这么多女性的声音。

And I'm so glad that there's so many women's voices in this.

你知道，香迪的声音非常坚定而有力。

You know, Shandy's voice is so strong and powerful.

即使看纪录片时，我在第二集开头就哭得稀里哗啦。

Even watching the doc, was balling at the top of episode two.

所有这些声音，真的都很打动人。

All of the voices, truly.

在忙碌的日子和充实的日程之后，安静的时刻才最为珍贵。

After busy days and full schedules, the quiet moments matter most.

Pure的身心健康系列将有意识的香氛带入您的家，让日常生活变得更轻盈、更柔和、更愉快。

Pure's Well-being Collection brings intentional fragrance into your home, helping everyday life feel lighter, softer, and more enjoyable.

没有繁琐的routine，没有压力，只有支持您内心感受的香气。

No routines, no overwhelm, just scents that support how you want to feel.

前往pure.com/moods探索本系列。

Explore the collection at pure.com/moods.

那是pura.com/moods。

That's pura.com/moods.

我是贾斯汀·西尔维斯特。

I'm Justin Sylvester.

我是布莱克·李·索顿。

And I'm Blake Lee Thornton.

欢迎收听《昨日凝视》，这档播客我们将深入剖析历史上最重要的流行文化时刻，并给予它们应得的酷儿之爱。

Join us for Yestergaze, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve.

那些在拨号上网时代让我们激动不已的事情。

The things that got us riled up during dial up.

那些本该是分手的接吻。

Those makeouts that should have been breakouts.

以及被永久定格在流行文化中的经典瞬间。

And the drops that were cemented in pop.

我说的就是贝尼弗。

I'm talking Bennifer.

泰拉对娜奥米。

Tyra versus Naomi.

汤姆·克鲁斯跳上沙发的那一幕。

Tom Cruise jumping on that couch.

还有更多更多。

And so much more.

所以请给我们评分，并在苹果播客、Spotify 或你收听音频内容的任何平台订阅我们。

So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get audio related content.

我们也可以收Venmo。

We also take Venmo.

还有Cash App。

And Cash App.

ACH呢？

ACH?

或者信用卡号也可以。

Or credit card number as well.

我们很灵活。

We're we're malleable.

是的。

Yeah.

我们是同性恋。

We're gay.

我们今天是同性恋。

We're gay today.

你正在收听女士帮派。

You're listening to the lady gang.

我其实想问问关于顶级超模的事。

I wanna actually ask about top model.

比如，如果你必须选出《顶级超模》中最离谱的三个摄影棚片段，是哪三个？

Like, if you had to give me the top three most up photoshoots from Top Model.

最离谱的前三名是哪些？

What are top three?

我知道我的答案，但杰伊最离谱的前三名是哪些？

I know mine, but what are Jay's top three most fucked up?

现在2026年已经不追踪这个了。

It does not track now in 2026.

而且《顶级》并没有下降

And it did not drop Top

超模的摄影棚片段。

model photo shoots.

鲨鱼，然后随便。

Shark then either.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我认为对我来说，第一名永远是那个，而且

Well, I think the number one, for me, which will forever remain number one, and and

而且我希望你的前五名之类的，不要包含在那些拍摄中

and I just and hopefully your your top five or whatever are not in the the shoots that

我制作的。

I produce.

因为那些早期的季数，我们真的根据泰拉做过的一个拍摄来创意，而且我们让泰拉希望女孩们做她曾经做过的事情。

Because those early seasons, I we we genuinely came up with creative based on a shoot Tyra had done, and we shut Tyra wanted the girls to do something she had done.

然后我会离开去创作。

And then I would go away and create.

所有事情开始转变的地方是第四季，那时我还在制作，但这件事在纪录片里有记录，就是那个种族互换的拍摄，当时在会议上，我立刻就意识到，出于对她的尊重，因为是她向我们这八个人提出来的。

Where it all started shifting, where all the cooks were in the kitchen is cycle four, and I was still producing, but it's in the doc, the the race swapping shoot where I just immediately in that meeting, I would out of respect for her, cause it was she pitched it to this group of eight of us sitting there.

我想做这件事是为了赋予有色女性力量。

I wanna do this for the empowerment of women of color.

每个人都说，我不敢在她同事面前反对她。

And everyone was like, I'm not gonna go against her in front of the people that work with her.

但我立刻把我的联合执行制片人拉到一边，说：你得去跟泰龙·肯谈谈。

But I immediately took my co executive producer aside and said, you need to talk to Tyron Ken.

一定得有办法让我退出这件事。

There has to be a way I'm out of this.

我的父母在南非种族隔离制度下长大。

My parents grew up in South Africa under apartheid.

每个人都以为我是西班牙人，但我其实是混血儿。

I everyone thinks I'm Spanish, but I'm biracial.

所以我认同自己是黑人，尽管人们总是看着我说：哦，他是西班牙人，因为我的姓氏。

And so I identify as a black man, although people always look at me and say, oh, he's Spanish because my last name.

太复杂了。

Too confusing.

但关键是，我知道我不能那样做。

But the point is, you know, I could not do that.

泰拉和肯一起来找我，说：别担心。

And Tyra and Ken came to me together and said, you know, don't worry.

泰拉会完全承担这个责任。

Tyra will own this a 100%.

你不会穿这个。

You will not wear this.

每个TikTok用户甚至记者，都只截取我在片场说这句话的片段。

And what every TikToker and even journalists do, they only show the clip of me saying this on set.

但在剧集十分钟后的评审环节开头，泰拉说，这完全是我的主意，这就是我这么做的原因。

But ten minutes later in the episode, at the start of the judging, Tyra says this was 100% my idea, and this is why I'm doing it.

让人沮丧的是，即使在2020年，新一代重新审视这件事时，他们还是全都来找我麻烦，因为那里有奇龙的创意总监，我的名字也出现在制作名单里。

That's what's frustrating is that even when this was revisited through the eyes of a new generation in 2020, they all started coming for me because there's the Chiron creative director, my producer names in the credits.

所以责任落在我身上，但其实不该在我身上。

And so it was on me, and it was not on me.

肯已经承认了，但那是我最重要的拍摄。

And Ken has admitted it, but that's the number one photoshoot for me.

第二重要的拍摄，正如这些TikTok网红之一指出的，他们想再拍一次，于是安排在了短周期内。

Number two was, as one of these TikTok stars pointed out, they wanted to do it again, and they did it in the short cycle.

但这次是混血主题，而我也是混血儿。

But this time it was biracial, and I'm biracial.

我当时就想，我们为什么要这么做？

And I'm like, why are we doing this?

所以那时我稍微表达了反对。

So that's when I did push back a little.

而且，再次强调，当时片场的气氛已经非常紧张。

And in a and again, things were already very tense on set.

但我对泰拉说，如果真是这样，你必须到场。

But I said to Tyra, if that's the case, you have to be on set.

你不是每个季度都喜欢拍一组写真吗？

You you like to do a photoshoot every season.

你来做开场介绍。

You do the introduction.

所以第二次你注意到我站在她旁边，一言不发。

And that's why that second time you notice I'm standing next to her mute.

她介绍了那次拍摄。

She introduces that shoot.

你本来想说什么？

What were you gonna say?

你的其他拍摄是哪些？

What are your other ones?

这三场是我最顶尖的。

Those are my top three.

失明。

Being blind.

失明。

Being blind.

这感觉真的很不体贴。

That felt really insensitive.

不过公平地说，那次盲人拍摄，泰拉之所以想做这个拍摄，背后有她所有的理由。

Now to be fair, that that that blind shoot, Tyra had all of this, all of the reasons behind she wanted to do this shoot.

我再次强调，我知道人们在说你袖手旁观，你袖手旁观。

I again and I know people are saying you stood by, you stood by.

而这就是人们回过头来评论的内容。

And that's the comment that comes back.

所以人们觉得我对此是共谋。

So people think I'm complicit in it.

你得理解泰拉这样的性格类型。

You have to understand a personality type like Tyra.

我的意思是，你不可能直接离开片场。

I mean, you can't just walk off set.

我有网络合约在身。

I have a network contract.

事情没那么简单。

It's it's just not that simple.

所以当时我只能在被迫接受的创意条件下尽我所能。

So I was doing the best that I could at that time with creative that was being forced onto me.

整个暴力拍摄也是同样的情况，是的。

The same thing with that whole violence shoot, which can Yeah.

天哪，真是让人震惊。

Takes oh my god.

那是他的主意，他也确实承担了责任，我不知道他是否真诚道歉，但他在纪录片中完全承担了责任。

He he he and it was his idea, and he does take, I I don't know if he's apologizing in an authentic way, but he does take full responsibility for it in the documentary.

但另一个让我觉得不可思议的是，我们真的要这么做吗？

But that was another one where I was just like, are we really doing this?

那个

The

无家可归者拍摄是这样的，听我说，这位女士在五年级时跳抒情舞，穿着无家可归者的服装跳迈克尔·杰克逊的《Will You Be There》，因为那时抒情舞圈里觉得这样特别酷，就像《悲惨世界》那样。

unhoused shoot is like, listen, and I'm saying this is a woman who danced at the seniors tee in fifth grade to Will You Be There by Michael Jackson dressed as a unhoused person because there was like a time in lyrical dance where it was very cool, like the Les Mis of it all.

富有表现力地。

Expressively.

而且我们

And we

我们都穿着破烂的衣服，装成孤儿和穷人，那时候就是这样。

were all wearing ripped clothes acting like we were orphans and poor, and it was like yeah.

我的意思是，那就是那个时代的风格。

I mean, it was it was that era.

明白吗？

Okay?

但确实如此。

But Yeah.

对我来说，最疯狂的是，他们在纪录片里还进一步强调，说他们真的和无家可归的人一起拍了这个无家可归者的镜头。

That to me was the wildest when they were like, even in the documentary when they doubled down, And they're like, we did this on house shoot with real unhoused people.

这简直太疯狂了。

That was like insane.

天哪。

Damn.

这不仅仅是穿衣服的问题。

It wasn't just the dressing up.

他们说，片场的群演真的是无家可归者。

They were like, the x the extras on set were real unhoused people.

我当时就想，这太离谱了。

I was like this.

但后来我想，至少他们那天是拿到报酬的。

But then I'm like, well, they got paid that day.

我是说，我猜他们是付钱的。

Like, I I'm assuming they paid them.

嗯，这算是一份工作吧。

Like, I guess that's a job.

你知道他们这个想法到底是从哪儿来的吗？

And you know where they really got that idea from?

而且这对泰拉来说也不太好看，因为她曾在自己的脱口秀里假装无家可归了一天。

And it doesn't it doesn't look good on Tyra too because she did that on her talk show where she was homeless for a day.

天啊。

My god.

摄像机一直跟着她。

Cameras following her.

我的天。

Oh my god.

这是日间电视里最让人尴尬的片段之一。

The most cringe worthy pieces from daytime TV.

这就是她坚持要拍这场戏的原因。

That's why she insisted on that shoot.

现在，再说一次，你知道，那是我们不得不拍的、让我们感到震惊的拍摄之一。

Now, again, you know, it was one of those shoots where we were just horrified we had to do this.

而且，我知道有人会说你当时选择了沉默。

And, again, I know people say you stood by.