"We're Gonna Dance" (w/ Lady Gaga) (RE-RELEASE)

我当时特别感慨

And I felt really emotional.

站在台上的时候，我都不知道该说什么才好

I, like, couldn't figure out exactly what I wanted to say on stage.

最后我决定要特别感谢马克·容森和The Roots乐队，毕竟《Shallow》这首歌是我和马克一起写的，

I ultimately decided to shout out Mark Ronson and The Roots because Mark and I wrote Shallow together,

还有The

and The

当时Roots乐队和我一起同台演出，我特别喜欢他们。我当时差点就当着大家的面说，特别感谢劳伦和SNL，谢谢多年前给我上这个节目的机会。

Roots were playing it with me, and I love And them so I was I almost said, like, and thank you to Lauren and SNL because, like, thanks for giving me a shot on the show years ago.

毕竟SNL也一直助力新人歌手发展，这个平台的分量真的很重。

Because, like, SNL also helps break artists, and it's a huge deal.

我不清楚大家——不对，我知道大家都知道这事儿，但可能很多人没意识到，能接到SNL的演出邀请对一个艺人来说意义有多大。

I don't know if you I mean, I know that people know this, but I don't know that they know how much it means to the artist when we get booked for the show.

对的。

Yeah.

我是说，直到现在，要是我接到邀请要去参加

I mean, to this day, when I got called to do

一人分饰两角的环节。

To double duty.

要是再过几周我得去做那种双栖主持兼表演的活，我肯定又要慌到掉眼泪。

To double do double duty in a couple weeks, full panic tears.

哎呀，真的。

Oh.

没错。

Yeah.

我特别开心，整个人都飘起来了。

So so happy, so elated.

我真是自豪得不行。

I couldn't be more proud.

这可是我这辈子最想做成的事，真的。

It was the thing that I wanted to do the most Yeah.

为了宣传我的唱片，也为了让大伙儿开心。

To promote my record and to just make people happy.

对。

Yeah.

这事肯定能成。

It's gonna happen.

咱们这期节目是赶在《周六夜现场》之前录的。

We're we're recording this before SNL.

没错。

Yes.

我们刚结束五十周年的庆祝活动，马上就开始录了。

We're coming right off of the the celebration of the fiftieth.

但话说回来，他们告诉我给你安排了双倍任务的时候，那会儿……

But, I mean, when when they told me that they booked you for double duty, the the

你一定会大放异彩的。

You're gonna be incredible.

我尖叫的时候，我就

The scream I scrumpt, I just

我就尖叫，我scrumpt。

I just scream I scrumpt.

我特别激动。

I was so excited.

对我来说，我跟别人说，我的工作就是让人微笑。

The to me, like, I say to people, I'm in the business of making people smile.

对啊。

Mhmm.

我百分百就是这么看待《周六夜现场》的。

And that is a 100% how I feel about SNL.

是的。

Yeah.

这节目就是专门让人在家开怀大笑的，我完全支持。

It's just that it is it is a night devoted to making people laugh at home, and I'm I'm all about it.

但你上次主持的时候，真的把那种感觉完全抓住了，就是那个充满爵士风的掌声开场。

But you literally embodied and captured that in the last time you hosted, which was that, like, jazzy applause cover.

我到现在还经常看。

I still watch.

简直完美到没话说。

It's like a pitch perfect.

这简直就是单口开场该有的样子。

It is everything the monologue should be.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

这为整期节目定下了基调。

It sets the tone for the show.

其实你根本不需要开场介绍，不管是那时候还是现在，但那个方式真的特别棒，一下子让观众觉得：这期节目肯定精彩。

It introduces not that you need an introduction, especially at that time or now, but it's like that was the perfect way to build confidence for the audience that the show was gonna be great.

能做那样的开场，真的是一种荣幸。

It was like such a privilege to do that.

我本身就是纽约长大的话剧爱好者，能主持SNL的开场独白对我来说意义非凡。

And I'm a theater kid from New York, so doing the SNL monologue is a big deal.

真的是天大的事。

It is a huge deal.

说真的，我之前从来没敢想过自己居然能站上那个舞台完成这件事。

And, you know, I just I don't I don't know that I ever imagined that I would end up doing that.

我原来只觉得自己最多就能一直做词曲创作、歌手、制作人这些事，从来没想过居然能被大家以这样的方式接纳认可。

I think I had a lot more confidence that I would, you know, just be a songwriter, singer, producer for as long as possible, but I I didn't know that I would get embraced in that way.

而且有意思的是，不管是做主持人，还是搭配音乐节目的嘉宾——主持、说开场独白，这和在小品里演角色完全是两码事。

And it's and that's what's cool about, you know, hosting and doing musical guests too is being the host, the monologue the monologue is separate from being an actor in the skit.

确实是这样。

Absolutely.

而以音乐嘉宾的身份登台演出，又是另一种完全不同的体验。

And then that's also separate from being the artist on stage as a musical guest.

所以相当于我把所有自己想做的事都体验了一遍

So it's like I get to kinda do all the things that I

热爱的事。

love.

对。

Yeah.

我刚才突然想到，你说能受邀上这个节目对一个艺人来说是多了不起的时刻啊。

I'm just thinking about how, like, you talk about what an amazing moment that is as an artist to be asked to do that show.

而且哪怕在《一个明星的诞生》那部电影里，当艾莉接到通知要上《周六夜现场》的时候，那也是全片特别激动人心的一个节点。

And even in Star Is Born, it's almost like an emotional, like, moment in the film when Ali is told, you're doing SNL.

这事儿还有格莱美提名，就像那部电影里主角能遇上的人生高光时刻一样。

It's like that and getting a Grammy nomination are both moments for that character in that movie.

没错。

Yes.

那段经历有没有影响你决定在SNL50上表演《Shallow》？

Did anything from that experience influence the decision to do Shallow on SNL 50?

毕竟你有那么多歌能选，但最后挑了这首《Shallow》。

Because you have so many songs you could have done, but you chose Shallow.

其实首先呢，《一个明星的诞生》里会加入那段情节，很大一部分原因是这部电影的很多内容都来自我的真实经历。

Well, first of all, one of the reasons that that was included in A Star Is Born is because a lot of A Star Is Born was inspired by my real life.

对。

Mhmm.

当时我和布莱德利还有埃里克合作得非常紧密，就是想把这两位音乐人之间的故事做的足够真实。

And I worked really, really close with Bradley and Eric on making sure that, like, the story of these two musicians felt real.

所以电影里上SNL、拿格莱美提名那种感受，完全就是我现实里真的经历过的心情。

And so that kind of feeling around SNL and around a Grammy is that's just, like, how it actually felt.

这首歌对你来说意义非凡，所以你才会做出这个选择。

Truly important to you, and so that's reflected in that.

对我来说，《Shallow》本来就是我一直希望能在SNL舞台上表演的歌。

And Shallow to me is the song I wish I had done on SNL.

哦。

Oh.

后来我和安迪商量要表演《Dick in a Box》的时候，他来找我，说他有个想法：我们的表演开场先唱《Shallow》，再切入正题。

And when Andy and I started talking about doing Dick in a Box, he came to me and he said, I had this idea that we started off, and you start with shallow.

结果我一开口唱，那效果完全不对，太糟了。

And I started, and it's like, doesn't sound good.

那后来呢

And then

懂了吧？

you said know?

最后我们就把整个作品做完了。

And we did the whole thing.

结果我去看彩排的时候，我就想，不对啊，会不会观众们……

And and when I watched the rehearsal, I was like, oh, like, but now maybe they kinda they might wanna

听出不对来？因为我当时……

hear because I

我们一开始就是这么起的头，但歌曲的调子根本接不上。

started because we started, and it doesn't go.

我本来还以为这是个圆我心愿的机会，还能在这么一档值得拿出全部实力的节目上，展现出我最好的作品。

I thought it I thought it would be a chance to do that and also to kind of put some of my best work forward on a show that deserves your best work.

哦。

Oh.

对。

Yeah.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

对我来说，看到艺人在《周六夜现场》表演时，我们都想拿出最好的表现。

Like, to me, when I see artists perform on SNL, like, we all try to put our best foot forward.

所以，我就希望这能成为一个温馨的时刻，也希望在家看的人能感受到这份温暖。

And so, yeah, I just I I wanted it to be, like, a heartwarming moment, hopefully, for people at home too.

我是真的喜欢各种不同的东西。

I mean, I do like lots of different things.

是啊。

Yeah.

你明白的吧？

You know?

我也挺喜欢琢磨那些暗黑美学，还有流行音乐里的诗意表达。

I'm also into the dark arts and the poetry of pop music.

没错。

Mhmm.

而《Shallow》这首歌和我职业生涯里创作的大部分作品都很不一样，但它对我来说意义非凡，因为它帮我和原本可能觉得没法跟我这类人产生共鸣的听众建立了联结。

And Shallow is very different than a lot of the music I've done in my career, but it's an important song to me because it helped me to connect with people that otherwise maybe didn't know if they could connect with someone like me.

比如说，他们可能之前没那么能理解我的作品，或是在上学的时候从来没遇到过像我这样的人。

Like, maybe they they didn't relate to me as much, or maybe they didn't know someone like me in high school.

没错

Mhmm.

所以《Shallow》这首歌对我来说意义非凡，选它来表演再合适不过了。

So, you know, Shallow is an important song to me for that reason, and it just felt like the right one to do.

我还记得那场Chromatica Ball演唱会，当时气氛嗨到爆，我还拉了15个朋友一起去看。

I remember the Chromatica Ball, like, that which was such a party, but we went with, like, 15 of our friends.

结果你一开始唱《Shallow》，我们所有人都——

And when you started Shallow, we all were,

就是互相关心一下

like, checking in with each other,

这事儿真发生了。

like, this is really happening.

我们居然听到了《Shallow》。

Like, we're hearing shallow.

这简直是文化巅峰时刻。

It is like a high point of culture.

梅特Life球场六万人，全场瞬间安静。

60,000 people at MetLife, a hush fell.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

连根针掉地上都听得见。

Like, you could hear a pin drop.

你明白吧？

You know?

那就是一种特别美妙的时刻。

It was just one of those sublime moments.

我记得当时抬头看着观众，心里想，我本来在夏洛特拍电影呢。

And I I think I remember, like, looking up at the crowd just being like, I I was shooting a movie in Charlotte.

我专程飞回来就为了这场演出。

I flew back for that show.

我当时就想，我可不能——

I was like, I'm not

错过女神的表演。

missing Gaga.

绝对不能。

No.

你记得吧。

Remember.

那简直就是一切的巅峰时刻，真的。

Like, it was just a culmination of, like,

那个时代本来特别辉煌，结果被疫情给搅和了。

that era, which was, like, kind of was a glorious era that got kind of messed up by the pandemic.

感觉就像一场盛大的谢幕，大家想一起庆祝的东西，全都在那会儿汇聚到了一起。

And, like, it just felt like this victory lap and this, like, culmination of, like, what everybody wanted to celebrate together with you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

对我来说，那场巡演真的特别特别珍贵。

It was a really special tour to me.

自从我不得不暂停《Joanne》世界巡演后，就再没在演出现场见过我的粉丝们。

I hadn't seen my fans really on tour since I had to stop the Joanne World Tour.

对啊。

Right.

那时候我身体状态特别差。

And I and I was like really not well during that time.

不得不取消演出，真的心都碎了。

And it totally broke my heart to have to cancel.

这已经是第二次发生这种事了。

And that that was the second tour that that happened on.

所以我要去巡演《Chromatica》的时候，心里有点打鼓。

So I was a little bit nervous about going out for Chromatica.

我一直在想：我真能撑得住吗？

I was like, am I gonna be able to do it?

上台的时候会不会疼得受不了？

Am I gonna be in pain when I'm on stage?

到时候会是什么情况？

What's it gonna be like?

结果特别棒。

And it was amazing.

我玩得特别开心。

I had the best time.

而且我亲爱的伴侣迈克尔一直陪在我身边。

Also, my amazing partner, Michael, was with me.

他全程陪我跑了这场巡演。

He came with me the entire tour.

巡演前的准备阶段，我们一直在一起。

We were together during the prep for the tour.

我们当时住在利兹，一边筹备巡演，一边看着这么个粗野主义风格的舞台杵在利兹市中心，配上那音乐，简直太搞笑了。

We lived in Leeds while we put the tour, which is, like, very funny having a Brutalist stage in the middle of Leeds with that music.

那简直太棒了。

That was incredible.

特别棒。

So good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

但那段经历真的很特别，也很治愈。

But it was, you know, it was special and healing.

某种程度上，它为我接下来的这次巡演打下了基础。

And I think in a way, it kind of set me up for this next time.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

我得说，听你讲起为娱乐这个理念服务，我理解的是，有一阵子我一直觉得你像是个不断在学习名气这回事的学生。

I gotta say, just hearing you talk about being in service of the idea of entertainment, I think it means to me what I hear is that, like, for a while, I I always thought about you as, like, someone who is perpetually being a student to the concept of fame.

好

Mhmm.

但很快我就意识到，其实你更是在钻研娱乐本身，这可不一样，显而易见。

But I think what it's very quickly become and, like, even sooner than I realized was you are a student of entertainment, and it's not the same thing, obviously.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的

Yeah.

谢谢

Thank you.

我是说，你之前说的没错。

I mean, I think you're right about earlier.

早年我刚入行的时候，确实是个追名逐利的学生，特别着迷。

Earlier in my career, I was a student of fame, and I was fascinated with it.

那会儿，名气也是我艺术的一部分。

And it was a part of my art.

我一直在研究它。

And I I studied it.

我特别特别着迷安迪·沃霍尔。

I was, like, really, really fascinated with Andy Warhol.

我就想把沃霍尔的那种精神融入我的流行演出里。

And I tried to cut sort of take the spirit of Warhol into my pop shows.

比如选音乐、灯光，甚至那个尿黄色的假发——那简直就是他那些丝网印刷的翻版。

Like, even, like, the choices of, you know, the music with the lighting and a, you know, a piss yellow wig that would have been one of, you know, his screen prints.

说白了，我就是想表达：只要肯学，谁都能当明星。

Like, it was all about this idea that anyone could become a star if they if they studied how.

但我当初完全没料到，我的粉丝会成为这么重要的一部分。

But the thing that I didn't know about would happen was my fans.

我根本想象不到他们会是什么样的人。

Like, I didn't know who they would be.

也没想过拥有粉丝会给我带来怎样的感受。

I didn't know how it would make me feel.

还有一件事我也完全没预料到，但我真的特别庆幸能遇上——那就是听到全世界各地的粉丝给我讲他们的故事。

I also did not anticipate, but I'm so glad that I did, hear the stories of people all over the world.

我那时候会在酒店门口停下，跟粉丝们聊天。

I mean, I I would stop outside my hotel rooms, and I would talk to fans.

演出结束后还会邀请粉丝到后台来。

I would invite fans back stage after the shows.

给他们放我的Demo小样听。

I would play demos

对的。

Mhmm.

早在发歌之前，我就跟粉丝们聊，问他们觉得这段怎么样？

For fans years before I released music and be like, what do you think of this?

咱们一起聊聊吧。

Let's talk about it.

你家里的生活是怎样的？

What's your home life like?

然后他们就会跟我分享他们的生活故事。

Like and and they would tell me about their lives.

这么一晃，我在公众视野里已经快二十年了。

And so I've grown up it's almost been two decades in the public.

对我来说，做音乐确实已经二十年了，没错。

It's definitely been two decades for me as a recording Yeah.

但我其实一直在成长，也在改变。

But I kind of grew up, and I changed.

我曾经是个追逐名气的人，但最后我明白，我做音乐真正想做的，是用艺术让人开心。

I was a student of fame, but I ultimately decided that the reason I wanna do this is to make people happy with art.

现在呢，我不确定我的粉丝是不是知道这一点，但我每天会练两次声。

And then, like, now I mean, I don't know if my fans really know this about me now, but I warm up my voice twice a day.

对的。

Mhmm.

我每天都会练钢琴，也在舞蹈室里比以往更拼命地练。

And I practice piano every day, and I am, like, working harder than ever in the dance studio.

所以我一直保持着自己的状态。

So I, like, keep up my chops.

是的。

Yeah.

因为在我看来，我这么努力，才是对粉丝应有的交代。

Because to me, that hard work is what my fans deserve.

而且，作为艺术家，能不断打磨自己的技艺，本身就是一种荣幸。

And, also, it's to me, that's like the privilege of being an artist is that you you get to work on your craft.

我想说的是，我还在进步，而不是觉得已经到头了，就停在那里。

And I wanna be able to say that I'm getting better at it, not that I've done it already, and and that's that.

你知道吗？

You know what?

不过我们得聊聊你这张新专辑里的演唱。

We have to talk, though, about your vocals on this new album.

就像我们之前说的，我们听了好几遍。

Like, we we we listen to it like we said.

我转头就问鲍比。

I I turned to Bobby.

我就说：你是怎么做到的？

I was like, how do you do it?

你这嗓音简直太牛了，简直像奥运冠军级别。

It is it is so Olympic what you do with your voice.

我猜你每天会热身两次吧？

And I would imagine you said you're warming up twice a day.

那你的声乐热身都是怎么做的？

I would imagine your vocal warm ups are what?

每次要练半小时吗？

Like, half hour long?

对。

Mhmm.

所以你在这上面真的下足了功夫，状态特别稳。

So you're really in the pocket on this.

毕竟这种摇滚唱腔本身就很难驾驭，而且你唱歌的时候还带着那么饱满的情绪。

Like, the rock vocals that are not easy to do, the passion with which you sing.

那你录歌、制作这些作品的时候，会一遍遍反复录唱吗？不然你怎么能做到这么厉害的水平啊？

When you're recording and you're putting songs like these together, do you go back and back and back vocally, or how can you do that?

对的。

Yes.

studio里的安德鲁、瑟基特还有迈克·盖索菲尔斯坦都被我折腾惨了——录 vocal 的时候，我有时候一首歌能录个五十遍。

I actually poor poor Andrew and Circuit in the studio, Mike Gesophelstein, when we were doing vocals, I would sometimes do, like, 50 takes.

哇哦。

Wow.

他们特别支持我，一切都挺顺利的。

And they were very, you know, supportive, and it was fine.

但原因是我写歌的时候，常常会想象是别人在唱。

But the reason is because when I'm writing music, I I'm sometimes imagining someone else is singing it.

当然。

Of course.

对。

Yeah.

这样能让我更好地代入超级巨星的状态。

Because it helps me to kind of embody the the spirit of a superstar.

因为我小时候其实没那么自信，这种感觉一直跟着我。

Because I know I didn't, like, always feel very confident as a kid, and that stayed with me my whole life.

所以写歌的时候，比如写《Born This Way》，我脑子里想的其实是你当时的做法。

So during the writing process like, when I wrote Born This Way, I was actually thinking about what you did.

哇。

Wow.

所以我特别开心你能懂这一点

And so I love that you knew that.

不是的

No.

我创作的时候脑子里总会想着不同的人

But I so I I was thinking always about different people.

但真到我要上台演唱的时候，我就会调整好状态

But then when I when I get there to sing it, I'm like, okay.

这首歌我其实可以用好几种不同的风格来唱

I could sing this in a lot of different ways.

没错

Right.

那我到底该怎么唱才好呢

How should I sing it?

第一次录的时候，我先试了一种唱法

So take one, I do it one way.

第二次，我就换了个唱法。

Take two, I do it another way.

到第八次的时候，我已经完全不一样地投入进去了。

By take eight, I've sunk into it differently.

是的。

Yeah.

到第十六次，我心想：这次我得来点彻底不一样的。

Take 16, I go, I'm gonna try something completely different.

全重来。

Scratch it

全都重来。

all.

对。

Yeah.

所以我觉得，你在这张专辑里听到的，其实是我当时在录音棚里特别较真，非得把唱腔做到最好，还逼着自己去尝试以前从没在唱片里做过的东西。

And so I think what you are hearing on this album is that I was actually pretty pretty bossy, actually, in the studio about about getting the best possible vocal and also pushing myself to do things that I've never done on a record before.

我觉得这张专辑里的声音，跟我在任何节目里的声音都不一样。

I don't think I sound on this album like I sound on any show.

这张专辑里有很多意外的嗓音发现。

Many vocal discoveries on this.

这话说出来都挺疯狂的，因为你音乐里本来就有好多不同角色，但这次比以往多了好多新角色，

And so many this is crazy to say because you're always so many different characters in your music, which you're you're speaking to, but so many more than ever and new characters that

我们都能听出来。

we're hearing.

没错。

Yes.

到底哪个角色来讲这个故事呢？

And which character is gonna tell that story Yeah.

为什么呢？

And why?

对。

Yes.

没错

Yeah.

我记得你很早很早以前接受过《V杂志》的一次采访

I mean, I remember there was this very early, early interview of yours where it was for V Magazine.

那次是马里奥·特斯蒂诺帮你弄的造型，把你晒得黝黑，完全是他一贯的风格，效果特别惊艳

It was like you were in like, Mario Testino made you get all, like, tanned and, you know, it was a very, like, Testino look, and it was incredible.

当时好像是Fuse频道的约翰·诺里斯采访你，你们聊到了Faith No More乐队，是你主动提起这个乐队的

But I think it was someone I think it was John Norris at Fuse who was asking you about, like, or you brought up Faith No More.

我当时就觉得，行吧。

And I was like, okay.

我完全没料到Gaga居然会这么在意、这么执着于这方面的东西。

This is not what I expected Gaga to, like, love and, like, zero in on.

这才是她真正的音乐品味。

This is, the real musical taste that she has.

紧接着我又反应过来，哇，她居然对《美国经典歌曲集》熟得不行，简直了。

And then it would shift to, like, oh, but then this bitch knows the Great American Songbook like the Vagaburra.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

然后突然间，等等。

And then it's, like, wait.

而且她还是个受过专业训练的钢琴家，真的懂这些曲子，门儿清。

And then she also, like she's, like, a classically trained pianist, and she, like, fucking knows, like, all of these.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我不是故意叫你‘ bitch’的。

I I didn't want not mean to call you a bitch.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

你什么意思啊？

What are you no.

你刚才说

You said

那个女的给我打电话了。

this bitch called me.

你明白我意思吧？

You what I'm saying?

不明白。

No.

你听我说。

Tell

那个来自纽约的姑娘。

them girl from New York.

我知道她认识不少人。

I know she knows friends.

等等，等等。

Like, wait.

稍等一下。

Hold on.

我的灵魂就在我身上。

My my soul is on my body.

这娘们知道。

This bitch knows

这娘们知道那场盛大的。

this bitch knows that the Great

美国软式棒球。

American Softball.

对。

Yes.

做吧。

Do.

谢谢。

Thank you.

就这么定了。

Period.

我觉得这些角色根本不是什么角色，更像是对音乐和娱乐的深刻理解，是你作为一个学习者的体现。

And, like, I just think the characters are not so much characters as they are the knowledge and this and being the student of music, of entertainment.

你身上就承载着这一切。

Like, you embody all of these things.

所以我觉得，《Mayhem》这张专辑，就像鲍比说的，可能是你迄今为止最真实、最本真的作品。

And so I think with Mayhem, I think with this album, it's like Bobby was saying that this is probably the most authentically you album you've ever put out.

这让我想到，Gaga之所以是Gaga，正是因为她是这么多不同元素、风格和精心钻研的音乐练习的融合体。

That makes me think, well, then there's something to Gaga being an amalgamation of all these different things and these genres and these studied detailed musical exercises, I guess.

但这就是你啊，因为你根本没法被归为某一种类型，我猜你也做不到。

But, like, that's who you are because I couldn't boil you down to one thing, and I'm sure you couldn't either.

没错。

No.

我的意思是，我确实就是这些所有东西的集合，而这就是‘混乱’的真谛。

I mean, I I am definitely all of these things, and that that's what mayhem is.

这其实是对这一切的庆祝。

It's a celebration of all of that.

你这么一说，我还真觉得挺有意思的。

And, you know, it's so funny as you're talking about this too.

我突然想到，那时候迈克尔每天都泡在录音室里。

I'm, like, thinking about this moment where Michael Michael was in the studio every day.

迈克尔和我一起担任这张专辑的制作人。

Michael executive produced the record with me.

有一阵子我特别迷恋那种电子垃圾摇滚的风格，比如《Perfect Celebrity》那首歌。

And there was at one point I was, like, really into this electro grunge sound, like, on Perfect Celebrity.

你本来就是个名人啊。

You're a celebrity.

就像科尔那样。

It's like Cole.

这感觉就像我们在说……

It's it's like were

在说科尔。

saying Cole.

我们刚才在说Garbage乐队呢。

We were saying Garbage.

对啊。

Yeah.

然后我那时候就说，行吧

So I'm like I'm like, okay.

那整张专辑都这么做，我要把所有东西都推翻重来

We're gonna make the whole album like this, and I'm gonna change everything.

结果他直接说，不行，你可别胡来

And he and he was like, no, you are not.

你不能这么搞

You can't do that.

不过他说得对，我本来就涉猎各种风格、尝试不同的创作思路和流程，啥新鲜的都玩。

Because but he was right because I am all of the different genres, all of the different approaches, all the different processes.

所以整张专辑最后听起来特别乱——要是你跳出来从远处听，完全摸不着头绪，什么跟什么啊。

That's why it ultimately is mayhem is because if you're stepping really far back, it, like, doesn't make sense.

但把所有元素拼到一块，这就是最真实的我。

But when you put it all together, it's me.

真的很感谢你能看懂我这一点。

And I appreciate you seeing that in me.

我感觉从我出道开始，就总有人到处质疑我，追着问‘你到底是谁啊？’

I feel like since the beginning of my career, there was always some type of criticism coming from somewhere of like, but who are you?

没错。

Right.

你懂吧？

You know?

还有人揪着问‘Lady Gaga到底是什么定位啊？’

And like, what is Lady Gaga?

你能给我解释一下吗？

And can you explain it to me?

你的风格到底是什么？

And what's your style?

说到底，你到底属于什么类型？

And, you know you know, what what genre really is it?

那我该怎么称呼你？

What should I call you?

那我该怎么称呼你？

What should I call you?

你到底是哪种类型的人？

Like, what's your

我们该感受到什么？

What are we supposed to feel?

你到底喜欢什么？

Do you really like?

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You know?

说实话，我一开始根本不敢再录一张流行专辑，但最后我还是决定做了。

And I think that first of all, I was terrified to make a pop record again, and I decided to do it.

做这个决定的时候，迈克尔、我家人，还有身边所有人的支持都让我觉得特别有底气。

And I felt very supported in doing it by Michael, by my family, by, you know, everyone around me.

别人觉得你一团乱，这种感觉以前还挺有意思的，但后来也挺难受的。

But feeling like people think you're chaotic is there's something there was a joy in that for a while, but there was also like a pain in that too.

所以你的恐惧就是从这儿来的？

That where the fear was coming from?

对。

Yeah.

尤其是作为女性，人家总说你‘太乱了’。

Well, it's like especially as a woman, people are like, you're you're chaos.

我心里其实一半会觉得，行吧还真是。

Like, it's kind of like part of me is like, uh-huh.

你懂吧？

You know?

但另一半又会忍不住疑惑：不然呢？

And then the other part of me is like, but what?

你这话到底什么意思啊？

Like, what do you mean by that?

没错。

Right.

是啊。

Yes.

就是一种敷衍的态度。

Dismissive.

感觉就像是在说你这个人一团糟。

It's kind of like you're a mess.

说白了他们觉得你一团糟，只不过是因为他们自己摸不清怎么把你归类而已。

And like, you're a mess because I can't figure out how to organize you.

没错。

Right.

他们根本不知道该怎么去看待你。

And I don't know how to think about you.

我想让我的粉丝们明白，这种想法纯粹是别人的问题，和你无关。

And I think what I want my fans to know is like that's other people's problem.

这根本不关你的事。

That's not your problem.

你大可完完整整做你自己。

Can be the whole you.

这张专辑里也融入了这份想法。

And that was was a part of this record.

而且作为一名女性制作人，我当时特别兴奋——我终于能完全按照自己的想法、自己的节奏，用我自己心里预想的方式来做音乐了。

And I felt I felt excited as a female producer too, like, just doing whatever I wanted when I wanted to in the way that I heard it.

我特别开心，刚才咱们聊之前你居然提到了《Killa》这首歌，这简直是我

And I'm so happy, like, even before we started that you brought up Killa because it's, like, my

最爱的一张专辑。

favorite record.

没错。

Yeah.

这张专辑太牛了。

It's amazing.

谢谢大家。

Thank you.

不过你今晚可就要“完蛋”咯。

But you're gonna die tonight.

哎呀，不是啦。

Well, no.

你其实不用...

You don't

根本都不知道。

even know.

我们差点疯了。

We learned gonna lose their mind.

两次，我们脑子里一直抓着这个不放。

Twice, and we've been, like, grabbing onto that in our brain.

整个这张专辑，咱们来聊聊这张专辑吧。

Like, this whole album let's talk about the album.

这专辑简直炸裂，烧脑、揪心，又是流行舞曲，还贯穿了死亡的主题。

Like, it's like face melty, brain scratchy, heart screamy, pop dance with this theme of mortality throughout.

衰败，混乱。

Decay, chaos.

对。

Yes.

我知道你以前说过，你每天睡觉前都会看一部恐怖片。

And I wanted to I know you've said before, like, you listen to a horror you watch a horror movie every night before you go to bed.

不知道你现在还是不是这样，但整张专辑到处都在讲直面死亡、依然起舞这个主题，这点太明显了。

I don't know if you're in that zone now, but the theme of death and, like, dancing in the face of it is obviously all over this.

不过我一直想问你，你在创作的时候，到底会笑多少次呀？

What I've always wanted to ask you, though, is how much are you laughing while you're creating?

就是说，快乐、幽默感、开怀大笑这些，在你做音乐的创作过程里占了多大的比重？

Like, how much is joy and humor and laughter a part of your creative process when you're making music?

那可是全部啊。

It's all of it.

对的

Yeah.

确实是这样

It is.

尤其是《Killah》这张专辑里，有很多很有意思的巧思

There's a lot of humor on Killah, especially.

没错

Yes.

我会笑出声的。

Will laugh.

这张专辑太搞笑了。

What a funny record.

没错。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

这张专辑太搞笑了。

What a funny record.

我其实没那么有自信。

I'm, like, not that confident.

写这张专辑的人可是很有自信的。

The person that wrote that record is confident.

不过我也得说，整个创作过程有点疯疯癫癫的，因为我也会突然变得特别认真。

But I would say also, though that it's like the process is a little bit manic because I also get really serious.

而且我也知道自己可能挺难共事的，因为我本身是个很热心的人，但写歌的时候就完全不一样了——一门心思要把自己想要的效果做出来。

And I know I can be difficult to work with because like, I'm a very warm hearted person, but when I'm, like, songwriting, I get like You want what you want.

我得努力捕捉脑子里冒出来的旋律，还得抓紧把它记录下来，不然一转眼就忘了。

I'm like, I'm trying to listen to what I'm hearing and get it out as fast as possible.

之后呢可能也就，对，是这样。

But then maybe I'll, you know yeah.

就是那句歌词，‘我是个杀手，小子，今晚你死定了’。

The lyric, I'm a killer and boy, you're gonna die tonight.

然后你看，就这么着，这些想法凑到一起，最后成品出来的时候还挺有意思的。

And, like, right and then that's funny, and then that comes out.

可转头我又会严肃起来，因为得反复琢磨那段吉他riff编得到底对不对。

But then I get serious again because I'm trying to figure out if the guitar lick is right.

我心里就会琢磨：不对，刚才那段不对。

And I'm like, no, it's not that one.

得是这段才对。

It's this one.

再来一遍。

Do it again.

怎么说呢，大概就是这么个状态吧。

Like, it's kind of a yeah.

整个创作过程特别乱。

The process is chaotic.

而且我本身也不是那种会按部就班思考的人。

And I'm I'm not also a very linear thinker.

我思维特别跳脱，经常跑题。

I'm very tangential.

太喜欢这种状态了。

Love it.

真的特别棒。

Love it.

而且有时候要是某段旋律怎么都写不对，我会死磕它整整三天。

And sometimes if I can't get one part of the song right, I will need to stay on it for three days.

明白了。

Gotcha.

比如一个基础贝斯线或者吉他 riff。

Like a baseline or a guitar riff.

但有时候我会干脆跳过去，心想：算了。

And then other times, I will move on from it and go I'll go like, no.

算了。

No.

咱们先去弄副歌前的部分吧。

Let's go to the pre chorus now.

这过程本来就不按套路来，我可太喜欢这样了。

You know, it's it's sort of it's a very nonlinear process, and and I love it.

确实如此。

That's true.

而且我很感激我伴侣，你知道吗，我们刚在一起那几年，我根本没在录音室待过。

And I'm so, like, also appreciative that my partner, like, he you know, the first few years that we were together, I wasn't in the studio.

当他看到我开始做音乐时，他简直惊呆了。

And when he saw me start to make music, he was like, oh my god.

我从来没见你这么开心过，真的。

I've like, I've never seen you happier Wow.

就是当你在做音乐的时候。

Than when you're making music.

那一刻我感觉被真正理解了。

And that and that was I felt very seen by that.

我觉得这对我特别重要，因为从小在公众视野里长大，大家会喜欢你的一些方面，但很多东西他们其实根本不知道。

And I think why it is so important to me is when you grow up in the public eye, as you know, there's things that people grow to like about you, but there's things that they don't know about you.

对。

Mhmm.

他们不知道那个在家静静反思、埋头创作的你。

Like, they don't know the you that's, like, maybe deep in reflection at home working on something.

他们只看到你对外展现的那一面。

They know the outward facing you.

所以有人看到你独自做着让你与众不同的事，这种被理解的感觉真的特别好。

So it feels really nice to be seen by someone for the thing that the thing that you do alone that makes you special.

那就是你的天赋。

That's your gift.

对吧？

Right?

就是这个世界看不见的你。

Like, the thing the world doesn't see.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你上次领奥斯卡奖的时候其实就提到过，这背后是真不容易。

I mean, I think you even alluded to this in the Oscar acceptance where you were just like, this is hard work.

没错。

There

走到这一步，真的需要付出很多牺牲。

are sacrifices that need to be made to get to this point.

我站在这儿，就是因为拼尽了全力。

Like, the reason I'm on this stage is because I worked so hard.

你这个人啊，Lady Gaga，真的特别温柔。

And that is the essential thing about you, Lady Gaga, is that you're like So sweet.

你简直不敢相信自己能走到这一步。

You're can't believe you're here.

我超喜欢待在这儿。

I love being here.

我喜欢这儿，但也特别喜欢那种人与人之间的联结。

I love but I I love also community.

和你们在一起，聊音乐、彼此共鸣，这大概是我成名后最怀念的东西。

So, like, being with you and talking with you and bonding over music is like, this is the thing I probably miss the most from my time before I became famous.

上周我 downtown 做了个采访，地点是我自己挑的。

I I did an interview downtown last week, and I picked the location.

对。

Mhmm.

我就说，咱们得去那个我以前写歌的酒吧。

And I was like, we gotta go to this bar that I used to write music at.

我们就在那儿做了采访，聊到下面那些朋友的时候，我差点哭出来。

And we we did the interview there, and I, like, cried during the interview talking about all my friends down there.

而且

And

是哪家酒吧？

What bar?

欢迎来到约翰逊酒吧。

Welcome to the Johnsons.

真棒。

Nice.

行吧。

Okay.

我去过那儿好多次，底下有好几家酒吧我们都常去。

I went I went to, like there was a lot of bars down there that we went to,

但那个

but that

只是其中之一。

was just one of them.

我白天经常去那儿。

And I used to go there during the day.

比如一点钟就过去。

Like, I'd go at, like, 01:00

没错。

That's right.

点一杯百威淡啤，再来一杯威士忌，顺便要张餐巾纸。

And, like, order a, you know, Pabst Blue Ribbon and a shot of whiskey and, like, and a napkin.

那时候身边都是艺术家，作家、词曲作者、喜剧演员、摄影师、演员、音乐人、脱衣舞娘、夜店推广人，咱们就像一个自己的小圈子。

But living around artists, being around writers, songwriters, comedians, photographers, actors, musicians, go go dancers, club promoters, you know, we were all like our own little group.

是的。

Yeah.

我们彼此支持。

And we supported each other.

那时候我去好莱坞做同样的事，真的特别不适应，跟纽约完全不是一回事。

And it was actually really hard to go to Hollywood and do what I was doing there because it was just not like New York at all.

太商业化了。

Just not like it's so commodified.

你懂纽约的。

You know about New York.

所以，

And so

能在这儿，对我来说特别有成就感，因为终于又能做回那个让我成为我的事了。

so this is actually hugely, like, a deep a deep joy for me to be here because we get to I get to, like, do the thing that made like, it's part of who I am.

是啊。

Yeah.

说起这些，真让人感慨。

It's, like, talking about it all.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是谢丽尔·斯特雷德，《走出荒野》和《微小的美好事物》的作者。

I'm Cheryl Strayed, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things.

我特别激动地告诉大家，我推出了一档新播客，叫《心越山峦》。

I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain.

每一期节目里，我都会采访运动员、探险家和极限运动爱好者，聊聊是怎样的内心世界与人生阅历，支撑和启发他们完成那些超凡的壮举。

In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats.

我也会在节目里分享一些实用建议，好让大家都能学会怎么应对那些看似跨不过去的难关。

I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges.

你猜我接下来要做什么？

Do you know what I'm gonna do?

我要把你藏在自己身体里的力量都给激发出来。

I'm gonna pull out what you already have inside.

其实我们从来到这个世界的那一刻起，就是在为自己的人生奋力拼搏的。

We come into this world fighting for our lives.

我就是把你心里本来就有的东西给挖出来。

All I'm gonna do is pull out what you already got inside.

我们聚在一起是为了互相支持、互相鼓劲，这不是谁的故事比谁更精彩。

We're there to support and celebrate each other, and that is not like a your story versus my story.

你一定能一步步走上那座山，翻过去。

You're gonna walk up and over that dang mountain.

你不是

You're not

光靠想就能搞定的。

just gonna put your mind over it.

没错。

Exactly.

如果我走不过去，

And if I can't

我就穿过去。

walk up and over it, I'm gonna go through it.

每周四记得来收听《心可移山》节目，你可以在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客，或是任何你常用的播客平台找到我们。

Listen to mind over mountain every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

在最近一期《约翰·奥布莱恩谈金钱与财富》播客节目里，我和“理财达人”蒂芙尼·阿里切坐下来聊了聊，要真正掌控自己的钱财到底该怎么做。

On a recent episode of the podcast money and wealth with John O'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany, the Budgetnista Aliche, to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.

要是放到我们的

What would that look like in our

家庭里，要是所有人都能把财富传承下去，那会是什么样的局面？

families if everyone was able to pass on wealth

没错。

Yes.

是留给那些还在世上的人们的吗？

To the people when they're no longer here?

我们会拆解预算规划、财务自律，还有如何从转变思维开始积累真正的财富——太多人这辈子都没人教过这些。

We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never ever taught.

学理财未必都是冲着要发大财去的。

Financial education is not always about, like, I'm gonna get rich.

这就很好。

That's great.

理财的核心其实是给自己打造踏实的生活保障，同时给家人留下稳固的财务遗产。

It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a a strong financial legacy for your family.

如果你总觉得没人教过你怎么管钱，这场对话你一定要听听。

If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more.

你可以在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客，或是你常用的任何播客平台上，收听来自Black Effect网络、由John O'Brien主持的《金钱与财富》节目。

Listen to money and wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

如果你在追《亚特兰大娇妻》最新一季的话，肯定知道这季有好多瓜要捋

If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down.

波西亚指责凯利出轨有妇之夫

Portia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a married man.

大伙死命拦着凯·米歇尔，不让她去跟德鲁干架

They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew.

萍基还遇上了财务危机

Pinky has financial issues.

我喜欢那种奢华的风格

I like the bougie style

《主妇》系列节目就是这样。

of Housewives show.

现在我觉得这季应该会挺有意思的。

Now I think it looks like it's gonna be interesting.

在播客《Reality With The King》里，我是卡洛斯·金，专门给你们复盘你们最爱的真人秀里的重磅时刻——包括《主妇》系列的狗血剧情、阵营结盟，还有大家都在传的那些八卦。

On the podcast, Reality With The King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the tea everybody's talking about.

作为真人秀的执行制片人，我可不只是在看热闹。

As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it.

我懂这里面的门道。

I understand the game.

作为一个做节目的人，我干脆直说了吧。

As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this.

说到底，老百姓在家就想看个乐子。

At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment.

想听更多这样的内容，

To hear this and more,

赶紧在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts，或者你常用的播客平台收听《Reality With The King》吧。

listen to Reality With The King on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

嘿，欧内斯特。

Hey, Ernest.

最近咋样？

What's up?

你看啊，

Look.

钱谁都得打交道，但真正能把收入变成财富的，是财商。

Money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth.

在《Earn Your Leisure》这档播客里，每期我们都拆解那些让你搞懂钱、投资和创业的关键对话。

On each episode of the podcast Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.

从股票、房产，到信贷、生意和代际财富，我们把那些复杂的理财话题，变成大伙儿都能听懂的实在话。

From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand.

但事实就是，绝大多数人从来都没学过钱到底是怎么运转的。

Because the truth is, most people were never taught how money really works.

可一旦你摸透了这套规则，就能在这个框架里开始积累财富了。

But once you understand a system, you can start to build within it.

这样你才能手握资产、做出更明智的投资决策，不光为自己，也为下一代创造机遇。

That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation.

如果你想学怎么积累财富、读懂市场、学会用老板的思维看问题，那《Earn Your Leisure》这个播客就太适合你了。

If you wanna learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, Earn Your Leisure is the podcast for you.

您可以在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或是任何常用的播客平台上收听《Earn Your Leisure》。

Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

那我们来聊聊你现在合作的这些音乐人吧，像Watt、Circuit还有Gesophelstein。话说啊，我之前看到Killa要和Gesophelstein合作的时候，还暗自想呢，我大概能猜到这首歌会是什么风格。

We'll talk about your current community, which is like Watt, Circuit, Gesophelstein, which, by way, Killa when I see Killa featuring Gesophelstein, I'm like, well, I think I have an expectation what the song is.

结果完全猜错了。

Did not.

可不是嘛。

I know.

完全没想到

Totally blown

太意外了，那个叫Did的人

away by Did

他是不是完全颠覆了所有人的预期？

he flip the script on everyone?

这两首歌都是

Both of

其实你猜对了

you did.

没错

Yeah.

谢谢

Thank you.

谢谢

Thank you.