Anthropic首席执行官批评英伟达向中国销售AI芯片

欢迎收听本播客。

Welcome to the podcast.

我是主持人杰登·谢弗。

I'm your host, Jayden Shafer.

今天节目中，我们将讨论Anthropic首席执行官达里奥·阿马德奥在达沃斯的最新言论。

Today on the show, we're talking about what Anthropic CEO, Dario Amadeo, has recently said at Davos.

他一直在批评英伟达和特朗普政府在处理AI芯片输往中国方面的方式。

He's been criticizing NVIDIA and the Trump administration in how they're handling AI chips getting sent to China.

这是一个非常有趣的话题。

This is a really fascinating topic.

很多人说他是在为自己的公司发声，希望保护自己的公司免受中国影响，但其他人认为他可能确实有道理，因为他提到了一些极端的选项，相当激进。

A lot of people are saying that he's talking his own book and wants his company to be protected from China, but others say that he might actually have a point as he's bringing up nuclear options, which are wild.

所以，今天我们将会深入探讨这些内容。

So, we're gonna get into all of that on the show today.

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We'll link together different AI models, put in prompts for you, and build a tool for you.

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You do not have to know how to code or be a developer.

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This is something I personally use and love and have automated a lot of tasks that I do every single day.

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描述里有链接。

There's a link in the description.

好的。

Alright.

让我们来看看达里奥·阿马德奥说了什么。

Let's get into what Dario Amadeo said.

所以，我想先稍微回溯一下背景情况。

So I think just as a little bit of a backup, and a background on this.

上周，特朗普政府正式批准了英伟达H200芯片的销售，这很有趣，因为此前他们曾撤回了之前的限制措施。

Last week, the Trump administration formally approved the sale of NVIDIA's h 200 chips, and this is interesting because they had kind of previously walked back an earlier restriction.

他们还批准了某些可比的AMD芯片，所有这些芯片都将被允许销往中国。

They also approved some comparable AMD line chips, and all of these are gonna be approved to sell to China.

所以，它们并不是英伟达或AMD生产的最前沿处理器，但确实是性能非常强大的芯片。

So they're not gonna be the most cutting edge processors that NVIDIA or AMD make, but they are really powerful chips.

真正有趣的是，据称Anthropic的首席执行官达里奥·阿马德奥已经敲响了警钟，他最近在达沃斯周二发表了一系列公开评论，表示他非常担忧。

And what's really interesting is apparently Dario Amadeo, the CEO of Anthropic, has been setting off alarm bells, he recently, on Tuesday at Davos, made a whole bunch of public comments about this where he said he was very con concerned.

当时他正在世界经济论坛发言，批评特朗普政府和英伟达支持这一举措，并对此表示强烈支持。

So he was speaking at the World Economic Forum, and he was criticizing both the Trump administration and Nvidia for backing this move and basically being very supportive of it.

我觉得这很有趣，因为背后有多种不同的力量在作用。

I think this was kind of interesting because there was a lot of different forces.

其中之一是，英伟达不仅是Anthropic的供应商，也是其最大的合作伙伴和投资者之一。

One of those is that Nvidia, it's not just the supplier of Anthropic, they're also one of the largest partners and investors in Anthropic.

因此，看到Anthropic批评自己的合作伙伴和投资者，确实很有趣。

So, it's interesting to see Anthropic criticizing its partner and investor.

这并不是Dario第一次批评他的投资者。

Now, this isn't the first time that Dario has criticized one of his investors.

他还因批评卡塔尔和阿拉伯联合酋长国而闻名，这两国都是他上一轮融资的投资者。

He also is famous for criticizing both Qatar and The United Arab Emirates, who are investors in his last round of funding.

他曾表示，自己并不乐意接受他们的资金，并且有一句引人热议的原话。

He said that he was not thrilled that he had to take money from them, and he specifically had a quote that went viral.

他说：'任何坏人都不应从我们的成功中获益。'

He said that, No bad person should ever benefit from our success.

但在一个需要巨额资本的行业中，要践行这一理念确实很困难。

It is difficult to apply that when running a business that requires massive capital.

所以，不管怎样，他确实非常出名。

So, anyways, he's, yes, very famous.

我认为他在批评合作伙伴和投资者时从不保留意见。

He I don't think he holds back when it comes to criticizing his partners and his investors.

这一点让很多人感到惊讶。

This one, a lot of people were surprised by.

他提到的一点是，这些公司的首席执行官们说，是芯片禁运拖累了我们。

Something that he said is, the CEOs of these companies say it's the embargo on chips that's holding us back.

他是在回应有关修订出口规则的问题。

So he was kind of responding to the questions about the revised export rules.

他听起来非常震惊，说这一决定最终会伤害美国。

He sounded like really shocked, he said that the decision would ultimately hurt The United States.

他说：‘我们在芯片制造能力上比中国领先多年。’

He said, quote, we are many years ahead of China in our ability to make chips.

他当时正在接受彭博社主编约翰·米克尔韦特的采访。

He was talking to Bloomberg's editor in chief, John Micklewyte.

他们进行了一次采访，他说，我认为出口这些芯片将是一个巨大的错误。

They had an interview, and he said, so I think it would be a big mistake to ship these chips.

本质上，他说美国根本不应该允许任何芯片出口到中国，这很有趣。

Essentially, he's saying that The United States shouldn't allow chips, period, to be shipped to China, which is interesting.

显然，很多人批评他，说你只是因为担心中国AI公司如深度求索（DeepSeek）获得这些技术并跟你竞争，才这么说的。

And obviously, I think a lot of people are criticizing him saying, well, you're just saying that because you're worried about the Chinese AI companies like Deep Thing DeepSeek getting access and competing with you.

他把这个问题提升到了比单纯竞争更广泛的层面。

He, escalated it a little bit beyond just competition.

他将人工智能系统描述为具有重大的国家安全影响。

He described AI systems as having enormous national security implications.

他称它们本质上是认知，本质上是智能。

He called them, you know, essentially cognition and essentially intelligence.

所以他并没有说它们就是智能，但汤米基本上是这么说的。

So he didn't say they they were intelligence, but he's saying Tommy basically said that.

然后他请观众想象一个未来：一个国家控制着一个相当于拥有无数天才的数据中心。

He then asked the audience to imagine a future where one country controls what amounts to a country of geniuses in a data center.

相当于一亿个头脑，虽然并不比任何诺贝尔奖得主更聪明，但都朝着同一个方向努力。

The equivalent of a 100,000,000 minds rather than any smarter than any Nobel Prize winner, all pointed in the same direction.

所以，我认为他这样表述，清晰地说明了为什么芯片出口对他如此重要。

So, I think his framing there is making this really clear why chip exports are so much, like, they matter so much to him.

接着，他说了一句让他的发言迅速走红的话，所有人都在讨论。

He then had a line that made, I think, basically made his remarks go very viral, everyone was talking about.

他说，我觉得这太疯狂了，指的是政府竟然打算允许这些芯片出口。

He said, I think this is crazy, talking about how the administration was gonna let the chips be shipped at all.

他说，这就像向朝鲜出售核武器，还吹嘘波音公司制造了弹壳。

He said, it's a bit like selling nuclear weapons to North Korea and bragging that Boeing made the castings.

好吧。

Okay.

显然，这种说法相当极端。

Obviously, this is pretty extreme.

我的意思是，这类芯片交易其实已经持续了很长时间。

I mean, we've been seeing these kind of these basically, these chip deals going down for a long time.

关于这个问题以及对华销售，特朗普早已禁止向中国出售芯片，但最近又允许英伟达向中国销售芯片。

A lot of the drama around this and selling to China, I mean, Trump has banned chips being sold to China for quite a while, but has now recently opened up, NVIDIA being able to sell chips to China.

但作为条件，英伟达必须支付25%的关税。

But with that, there's a 25% tariff that NVIDIA has to pay.

此外，这些并不是英伟达卖给美国公司的顶级芯片。

And in addition to that, these aren't the top of line chips NVIDIA sells to American companies.

它们更像是英伟达的旧款芯片、旧型号，而他们现在被允许销售这些产品。

They're kind of like their older chips, their older models, and they're they're able to sell them.

所以，有些人说达里奥担心中国公司会怎么做，也有人认为他说得非常到位——我们是在向中国出售核武器，而中国当然早已拥有核武器。

So, in any case, some people are saying Dario is worried about what the Chinese companies are gonna do, and some people say that he is right on the money by saying we're selling nuclear weapons to China, who, of course, already has nuclear weapons.

但无论如何，你可以想象，英伟达的电话可能已经被打爆了，他们对这些言论显然并不高兴，因为英伟达不仅仅是一家半导体公司。

But in any case, somewhere I think you can imagine that NVIDIA is blowing up his phone, not super happy about all of the comments, because NVIDIA isn't just a semiconductor company.

对吧？

Right?

Anthropic 明显依赖大量云基础设施公司，比如微软、亚马逊和谷歌。

Anthropic obviously relies on a lot of cloud infrastructure companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Google.

而这些平台每一个最终都依赖于英伟达的GPU。

And every single one of those platforms ultimately runs on NVIDIA's GPUs.

因此，目前英伟达实际上处于现代AI堆栈的核心位置。

So right now, NVIDIA sits at basically the center of the modern AI stack.

也就是说，没有他们，你就无法构建AI。

Like, you cannot build AI without them.

我的意思是，基本上就是这样。

I mean, basically.

而且他们最近还承诺向Anthropic投资高达100亿美元。

And they also recently committed up to $10,000,000,000 investment into Anthropic.

所以他们作为重要投资者，投入了100亿美元，或至少做出了这一承诺，现在却遭到批评。

So they're a big investor, putting $10,000,000,000 in or at least committing that, and now they're they're getting criticized.

就在两个月前，Anthropic和英伟达实际上宣布将建立一项深度技术合作。

Just two months ago, Anthropic and Nvidia actually announced that they were going to build basically a a partnership on a deep technology, that they're working on.

他们计划完成这项合作，当时还做出了许多关于如何优化彼此系统的承诺。

They were going to complete this with, you know, they had all of these, like, different promises about how they were gonna optimize each other's systems.

这其实是我们经常在芯片、云软件或云平台中看到的情况：它们会与像Anthropic、OpenAI和Google这样的大型超大规模客户达成合作，因为它们会说：如果你用我们的平台训练模型，与我们合作，你就能教会我们该在系统中做什么优化。

This is actually something that we see a lot from chips or cloud software or cloud platforms where they basically make deals with these big hyperscalers like Anthropic and OpenAI and Google because, you know, they're saying like, look, if you train your models with us, if you work with us, you'll teach us what we need to do and what we need to optimize in our systems.

这对云平台实际上非常有利，因为这样一来，它们就可以宣称：我们帮助训练了OpenAI最新的模型，而这是目前排名第一的模型，其他所有公司都会想：看来他们确实是行业标杆。

It's actually very beneficial for the cloud platforms because then, you know, if they can say, look, we help train OpenAI's latest model, which is the number one model, every other company will say, hey, well, it looks like they are kind of the standard of excellence.

我们会选择XYZ公司，通常是与Anthropic合作很多的亚马逊，或与Anthropic合作很多的谷歌，当然微软也与OpenAI合作密切。

We'll go with XYZ company, which typically Amazon, who's done a lot with Anthropic, or Google, who's done a lot with Anthropic, and then of course Microsoft has done a lot with OpenAI.

所有主要的云服务商都在争相争取一些大型AI公司入驻自己的平台，以优化自身系统，从而赚取更多利润。

They're all kind of like, basically the big cloud providers are kind of vying for some of the big AI companies to be on their platform, to optimize their platform, so it will it just basically makes some more money.

所以，这就是NVIDIA当时与它们正在洽谈的协议。

So, this is kind of the deal that Nvidia was working out with them.

如果你把时间快进到达沃斯，现在Amadeo却把他新合作伙伴NVIDIA比作军火商。

If you now fast forward to Davos, and now Amadeo is basically comparing his Nvidia, his new partner, to an arms dealer.

我认为他的这个类比可能只是随口一说，没有深思熟虑。

I think it's possible that his analogy was, you know, is maybe he's just kind of talking off of the cuff.

你知道，他毕竟是个CEO，难免会这样。

You know, he's kind of the product of being a CEO.

有时候你会被自己的言辞带偏了。

You get a little bit carried away by your own rhetoric sometimes.

但我认为，考虑到Anthropic目前的地位，他真的觉得没必要有所保留的可能性也很高。

But I think given Anthropic's position right now, it's also just as likely that he literally felt there's no real need to hold back.

他已经筹集了数十亿美元。

He's raised billions of dollars.

他的估值高达数千亿美元，而他的编程助手Claude几乎是目前最好的编程助手。

He has a massive valuation, which is in the hundreds of billions, and Claude, his coding assistant, is basically the best coding assistant out there.

它是开发者中最受信赖的工具。

It's, you know, the most trusted tool among developers.

它正在处理大量复杂的现实世界软件。

It's working on a lot of complex real world software.

所以我认为，Anthropic确实可能非常担忧中国许多AI实验室的速度和野心，他希望华盛顿能做出相应的回应。

So I think it's definitely possible that Anthropic is genuinely fearing the pace and ambition a lot of of a lot of the Chinese AI labs, and he wants Washington to kind of respond accordingly.

所以，如果目标是引起关注，我认为谈论核武器——比如出售核弹——是一种非常可靠的手段。

So, if the goals get attention, I think definitely talking about nuclear, you know, selling nuclear bombs is a very reliable way to do that.

但我认为最有趣的是，他竟能如此自由地发表这些言论，却丝毫不显担忧。

I think what is most interesting though is how freely he can make those comments without appearing worried about the follower.

对吧？

Right?

他并不在意媒体会怎么说。

He's not worried about what the news is gonna say.

这是一家资金极其雄厚的公司。

It's a very well capitalized company.

所以我觉得这一切都很有意思。

And so I think all of this is interesting.

我认为这表明，如今许多AI公司的领导者们，觉得这场竞争关乎生死存亡。

I think it shows that the leaders of a lot of the AI companies today, the race feels existential to them.

对吧？

Right?

传统意义上的事情，比如投资者的敏感性、战略合作伙伴关系，或者那种外交上的克制。

Traditional things like, investors being sensitive or strategic partnerships or kind of having this diplomatic restraint.

这似乎并不适用于当今许多人工智能公司。

This doesn't really seem to apply with a lot of the AI companies today.

所以我认为，阿尔莫多听起来并不像是在小心翼翼地权衡自己能说什么或不能说什么。

And so I think Almodeo didn't sound like someone who's kind of carefully weighing what he could say or or what he couldn't.

他基本上就是在说他真正相信的内容。

He basically was saying exactly what, I believe he thinks.

他非常自信。

He's got a lot of confidence.

他并没有太多恐惧。

He's not doesn't have a lot of fear.

我认为这也有许多积极的一面。

I think there's a lot of good to that as well.

我知道有些人可能会批评这一点。

I know maybe some people criticize that.

我认为这有很多积极之处，而且我认为这个细节尤其值得关注，因为它关系到人工智能未来的发展；似乎我们身边有一些领导者，无论对错，都会直言不讳，比如他、埃隆·马斯克以及许多其他参与者，都是非常有主见的人。

I think that there's a lot of good to that, and I think maybe that that detail in particular is worth paying a lot of attention to as far as what's going to happen with AI in the future, and it feels like we have some leaders in the space that will speak their mind, whether they're right or wrong, you have very opinionated people between him and Elon Musk and a lot of the other players.

所以，未来会发生什么将会很有趣。

So, it'll be interesting to see what happens in the future.

非常感谢你收听这个播客。

Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast.

如果你喜欢这期节目，请在你收听播客的平台留下评分或评论，并记得访问 aibox.ai。

If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast, and make sure to check out aibox.ai.

如果你想在不懂编程的情况下与 AI 一起编码，不成为开发者也能实现，只需描述你想要什么，我们会为你创建出来。

If you'd like to vibe code an AI tool without knowing how to code, without being a developer, you can explain what you want, and we'll create it for you.

aibox.ai。

Aibox.ai.

描述中有一个链接。

There's a link in the description.

我们下一期再见。

I'll catch you in the next episode.