The Antitrust Lawyer Who Parachuted Into Trial and Beat Live Nation and Ticketmaster for 33 States

我是约翰·昆恩。

This is John Quinn.

这是法律受阻项目。

This is Law-disrupted.

今天我们要聊一个我觉得特别有意思的案子，以及杰弗里·凯瑟尔参与的这些特殊背景——他可是温斯顿与斯特恩律师事务所的合伙人。

And today, we're gonna be talking about what I think is a super interesting case, and super interesting circumstances in which Jeffrey Kessler, who we're talking to, is a partner with the Winston and Strawn firm.

我猜你在芝加哥分所，杰夫？

I assume you're in the Chicago office, Jeff?

不是。

No.

我在纽约分所。

I'm in the New York office.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

我猜错了。

I assume wrong.

在温斯顿·斯特恩这家出色的律所纽约分所，我们经常和他们打官司，也经常和他们合作。

In the New York office of the wonderful law firm of Winston Strong, who we litigate with and against all the time.

你知道，Live Nation和Ticketmaster长期以来一直和反垄断法纠缠不清。

You know, Live Nation and Ticketmaster have a long history of engagement with the antitrust laws.

我觉得他们一直受着2010年达成的那份和解协议约束。

I think they've been operating under a consent decree, the decree that goes back to 2010.

这些年来，针对这两家公司的私人反垄断诉讼层出不穷，我们律所现在就正在推进一起，而且已经成功获得了对Live Nation和Ticketmaster的集体诉讼认证。

There's been a whole raft over the years of private antitrust litigation against those entities, including one our firm is is prosecuting now where we have a class action class action actually certified against Live Nation and Ticketmaster.

但这个非同寻常的案子，最初是由美国司法部提起的。

But this remarkable case began with a case brought by the United States Department of Justice.

一开始，可能有将近40个州也加入了诉讼。

And I think originally maybe as many as 40 states.

让很多人没想到的是，陪审团审判才刚开始一周，联邦政府就和被告达成了和解，把剩下的州政府留在了原地，得自己决定要不要继续下去，不再有司法部的支持。

And to a lot of people's surprise, one week into the jury trial, the government, the United States Department of Justice, settled with the defendants, leaving the states there with a decision about whether they wanted to go forward without DOJ's involvement.

更令人惊讶的是，就在庭审进行到一半的时候，他们居然换掉了主审律师。

And more remarkably, in the middle of the trial, they decided to substitute a new trial lawyer.

今天我们要聊的这位就是杰夫·凯塞尔。

And that's Jeff Kessler who we're talking to today.

杰夫，你有没有在重大反垄断审判进行到一半时临时接手过？

Jeff, have you ever substituted in the middle of a major antitrust trial like that?

说实话，从来没人会在陪审团审判开始一周后临时接替主审律师。

So I think the answer is nobody has ever substituted into a a major antitrust case one week into a jury trial.

这种情况简直是前所未有。

It is a it is a unicorn situation.

这种罕见的情况，说奇怪也奇怪，说不奇怪也不奇怪。

The unicorn situation and remarkably or maybe not remarkably.

我听说当时出现了不少对对方不利的文件，而且我相信你是个顶尖的出庭律师。

I understand there were some pretty damaging documents, and I'm sure you're a fantastic trial lawyer.

你赢了。

You won.

没错。

Right.

经过这么多年，终于在针对票务通和Live Nation的私人反垄断诉讼中找到了突破口。

Finally, after all these years, a chink in the wall in private antitrust litigation against Ticketmaster and Live Nation.

不过杰夫，让我先问你，你最初是怎么卷入这件事的？

But let me let me begin, Jeff, by asking you, how did how did you re originally get involved?

是谁联系你的？

Who contacted you?

你接手这个案子的背景是什么？

What was the background to your engagement?

对。

Right.

审判开始前几周，各州开始听说司法部可能在没通知他们的情况下达成和解。

So several week before the trial began, the state started to hear rumors that the Department of Justice might do a settlement without them.

当时有个由各州组成的委员会，负责协调各州的行动，成员包括纽约州总检察长、哥伦比亚特区、田纳西州、加利福尼亚州和得克萨斯州。

And there was a committee of states that was sort of the organizing group for the states led by the New York AG, the DC Circuit, Tennessee, California, Texas.

有不少州都深度参与了进来。

There were a number of states who were very involved.

顺便说一句，这可不是什么党派之争的案子。

Notice, by the way, this is not a partisan case.

无论是哪个政党的州，都一致认为Live Nation的行为构成了垄断问题。

You had states of all political persuasion agreed that Live Nation taken the mask or an anti drugs problem.

这个委员会联系了我，说：嘿。

And that committee contacted me and said, hey.

这事可能会发生，但我们州里没人有足够经验担任这种重大反垄断案的主辩律师，能立刻接手的。

This could happen, and we don't really have among our state teams anyone who's an experienced, you know, first chair, you know, leave litigation counsel for a major antitrust case who's ready to take this on.

我们原本是指望司法部来处理的。

And then in because we were relying on the Department of Justice to do that.

他们问：如果真发生了，你和你的团队能不能接这个案子？

And they said, if this happened, could you and your team do this?

所以，就像我说的，这简直是千载难逢的机会。

And so as I said, it's a unicorn situation.

我认真考虑了一下。

I thought about it.

我说，唉，我真希望能有两个月时间做准备。

And I said, gee, I'd really like to have, like, two months to prepare.

我已经掌握了所有事实、证人，该了解的我都了解了。

I had learned the facts and then witnesses and I had everything else you need to know to do that.

但很明显，我根本拿不到那么多时间。

But it was clear I was not gonna get that time.

我就说，那咱们尽量争取多一点时间吧。

And I said, let's try to get as much time as we can.

如果真发生了，而且你们决定要接手，那我们就上。

But if this happens and, you know, when you decide to retain this, we'll do it.

之后他们又开了几次会，直到开庭前一周，我才决定先备着，以防万一。

And then thereafter, they had several other meetings, and I'd eventually decided the week before the trials started that we would be engaged just in case.

结果陪审团那边根本没理我们。

And so the the jury was shrugged.

我们根本没参与那部分。

We weren't part of that.

我整个第一周都去了。

I had went that whole first week.

到了第一周的周五晚上，或者可能是周六，他们突然收到消息，说和解协议已经提交法院，司法部要退出此案。

And then it comes to be Friday night, maybe, of that first week or Saturday that they get word that a settlement has been reached that was sent to the court Sunday night and that the DOJ was exiting the case.

所以，几乎立刻，法官就问我们现在打算怎么办。

And so, you know, almost immediately, the judge wants to know what are we doing now.

你知道吗？

And You know?

他特别生气，因为他之前问过和解的进展和情况，却一点提前通知都没收到。

And he was very upset because they had he had asked what the settlement posture was and where things were and had no advance notice of this.

所以法官对这件事非常不满。

So the judge was quite unhappy with the situation.

我们最先做的就是提出要求宣布审判无效。

And then the initial thing we did is we first said, well, let's move for a mistrial.

明白了。

Okay.

在你谈这个之前，作为一个出庭律师，你接到这样的电话。

Before you get into that, I I just as a a trial lawyer, you get this phone call.

这可是个大案子。

It's a major case.

我猜你手头还有别的案子在忙。

I'm sure you have other things on your docket that you're working on.

当时要决定接下这个案子，是不是很难下决心？

Was it a difficult decision to make to say, okay.

我愿意接手。

I'll do this.

我的意思是，接到这种电话，心里肯定一沉。

I mean, I would think you get that call in the in the pit of your stomach.

一方面，你觉得自己碰上了绝佳的机会。

You're on the one hand, you think this is a great opportunity.

这是个绝佳的平台。

It's a great platform.

我真的很想接这个案子。

I'd love to do it.

但另一方面，这情况非同寻常。

On the other hand, these are extraordinary circumstances.

我和我的团队真的能胜任吗？

Am I and my team really up to this?

你有没有跟自己这样盘算过？

Did you have that kind of conversation with yourself?

说有吧，也说没有，但我很快就想通了，这事儿咱们得接。

Yes and no, but I quickly convinced myself that this is something we should do.

我的意思是，这

I mean, it

刚好我日程上有个空档。

happened that I had opening in my schedule.

所以如果我手头还有别的案子在审，那肯定就没办法了。

So it wasn't like I you know, if I had another trial scheduled, obviously, that wasn't gonna work.

所以我清楚自己有空档。

So I knew I had an opening.

作为出庭律师，接手这个案子的紧迫感完全盖过了其他一切。

And the rush as a trial lawyer of doing this case, sort of overwhelmed everything else.

对吧？

Right?

当然知道这会很难，会非常有挑战。

And said, yeah, it's gonna be hard and it's gonna be difficult.

所以我提到，我们原本打算申请延期审理，说一个月后再开庭，这样能多一个月准备时间。

And that's why I mentioned our thought was we'll move for miss trial and say, let's start another trial a month from now so that then we'd have a month to prepare.

对吧？

Right?

没错，确实如此。

You know, that would Yeah.

所以我们先申请了延期审理，但法院对此并不满意。

That would give us and so so we first move for a miss trial, And the court was not happy with that.

如果法官觉得陪审团已经被充分赋权了，那这事其实已经办成了，而且说实话，之前根本没发生过离婚这种情况。

If the judge felt like they empowered this jury, they've already done this, and he really you know, and it wasn't a lot again, divorce has never happened.

关于是否该宣布审判无效，相关的判例本来就很少。

He's not a lot of precedent for whether or not a mistrial should be granted.

随着第一周慢慢过去，我们和检方达成了共识。

And then as that first kind of, like, week went on, we came to conclusion with the state.

你懂的。

You know?

我们其实能搞定这个案子。

We can probably do this.

我们开始慢慢理清了案卷材料和下周要传唤的证人，搞清楚了各环节的情况。

Like, you know, we started to, like, get our hands around the record and the witnesses for next week and where things were.

我们觉得，就目前为止的表现来看，陪审团其实挺靠谱的。

And we said, you know, we think we actually like the jury, like, based on what was done so far.

我们也知道，法官根本不想批准重审。

And we knew the judge did not want to grant the best trial.

所以到了那个周五，第一周刚开始，我们就对法官说：法官大人，我们能继续下去。

So we showed up that Friday at the at the first week and said, your honor, we can do this.

我们会继续进行。

We will, we will go forward.

不再拖延。

No delay.

我们明白。

We know.

我们已经浪费了一周的庭审时间。

We we well, we lost the week of trial.

对吧？

Right?

换句话说，从达成和解的那个周五开始，他就让陪审团回家，自己则在考虑是否批准撤回审判的动议。

He took he in other words, from from the Friday that there was a settlement, he told the jury to go home that week while he considered what to do with the mistrial motion.

对。

Right.

所以陪审团有一周的休息时间。

And so so there was a week off for the jury.

对。

Right.

但他们被告知，除非接到通知不用来，否则下周一还得回来。

But they were told that they should come back the following Monday unless they were told not.

是的。

Yeah.

这个案子的案卷肯定特别庞大。

This case must have had a voluminous record.

你到底什么时候开始看案卷的？

At what point do you actually start to read the record?

是那个周五吗？

Was it that Friday?

我们其实早在那之前就开始看了。

We well, we started even beforehand.

你要记得，我们当时已经介入了这个案子。

Because remember, we were in taint.

在庭审开始前的那一周，我们就已经着手准备了。

We had started to get ready the week before the trial started.

所以我们当时已经在同时关注庭审进展，并且开始参与进来——司法部也愿意和我们共享信息。

So we were already in the process of both monitoring what was happening at the trial and starting to lead, you know, the, you know, the DOJ was willing to share with us.

他们提供了证人摘要。

You know, they had witness summaries.

专家团队也已经就位了。

There were experts in process.

我们早就开始介入一些工作了。

There were things that we already started to become involved in.

说实话，这正是AI最厉害的地方之一——比如，我们把所有证词都导入了一个叫Hari的AI平台，瞬间就生成了各个重点的摘要。

And frankly, this is one of the great uses of AI because we were able to, for example, take all these depositions, load them all into what's called Hari, which is an AI platform, and have them all summarized for different points instantaneously.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我们可以翻看这些材料，然后说，好吧。

You know, we're able to go through it and say, okay.

当然不可能完美，但这是了解案件的一个很好的起点。

Now it wasn't gonna be perfect, but it was a great way to start learning the case.

就是翻一翻，然后说，好吧。

It's like go through and say, okay.

哪些证人提到了这些内容？

You know, which witnesses spoke about them?

上面到底写了什么？

What does the thing on it?

对吧？

Right?

它开始帮我们处理这些海量材料，把它们整理得清清楚楚，让我们能慢慢摸清头绪。

And it started, like, taking these, you know, very voluminous materials and sorting it out for us in ways that we could start learning about it.

我们当然组建了一个庞大的团队。

We obviously put a very big team together.

你们团队有多大？

How big was your team?

除了我之外，还有四位合伙人参与这个案子。

So we had, in addition to myself, four other partners.

所以这个案子一共有五位合伙人，可能第六位也算一半。

So we had five partners on the case, maybe partially a six.

我们一共有六位合伙人，五位全职，一位兼职。

So we have so we had six farmers, five working full time, and the six who work part time.

我觉得大概有十位助理参与这个案子。

Probably had, I'm gonna say, 10 associates on the case.

我们还有两位法律助理。

And we had two paralegals.

所以算下来，大概有十六到十八位温斯顿律所的成员，我们把任务分了下去。

So so we had, you know, about 16 to 18 Winston team members who we divided things up.

我们说，丹尼，你负责文斯那边。

We said, oh, Danny, you're gonna take Vince.

你负责处理文斯那部分。

You're gonna take Vince.

你负责处理文斯那部分。

You're gonna take Vince.

我们还制定了分工方案，来处理所有这些工作。

And we made schemes to work on all that.

是的。

Yeah.

这更像是区域联防，而不是一对一盯人。

So it's kind of a zone defense rather than man to man.

我们是按主题来分工，而不是按证人来分。

It was by sub you divide it up by subject matter rather than by witness.

对。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

而且我们处理这件事的方式，跟其他事情也一样。

And the way we had to do this also is it's like anything else.

你得先有个整体的规划。

You have to give a once in that.

我们首先要确定的是，哪些证人要留到后面出庭。

Like, the first thing that we had to decide is what witnesses are we holding up in that.

对吧？

Right?

我想把这一点弄清楚。

I just wanna get this clear.

听起来你是在开庭前一周就开始准备了。

It sounds like you started on this a week before the trial started.

庭审只有一周时间。

There was one week of trial.

中间还隔了一周。

There was one week off.

所以你大概有两周时间，不是三周。

So you had you had you had about two weeks, not three weeks.

对。

Right.

没错。

That's right.

你大概有两周

You had about two

然后你让助理接手，周一就出庭了。

And and so you substitute you associate in, and you show up on Monday.

对。

Right.

然后你传唤证人。

And you call a witness.

没错。

That's correct.

好的。

Alright.

现在，陪审团之前没见过你。

Now were you the jury hadn't seen you before.

有没有人做过什么介绍或说明？

They they was there some introduction or explanation?

有的。

Yes.

法官说，因为其他人已经在开场陈述前被介绍过了，所以他让我上台介绍我的团队，说明我们现在代表的是包括华盛顿特区在内的34个州。

The judge said since the others had been introduced before their opening argument, because he let me get up and introduce my, team in court and say that we can now be representing what were 34 states, including the District Of Columbia.

也就是13个州和华盛顿特区。

So 13 states and the District Of Columbia.

但我们是在暗示

But we're insinuating

陪审团并没有对为什么这样安排做出任何解释

The jury wasn't giving any explanation as to why

没有。

No.

但他们被告知，司法部将采取行动。

But they were told that the Department of Justice shall.

对。

Right.

所以他们知道这一点，明白这与本案无关，但应该知道司法部已经达成和解。

So they knew that and that they should and that it does no relevance to them in the case, but they should know the Department of Justice settled.

所以我相信他们推断出这跟那件事有关。

So I'm sure they surmised that it had to do with that.

另外，我和纽约州总检察长办公室的一位律师共同担任首席律师，因为各州总检察长还会继续参与进来。

And, also, I became co lead counsel with the I don't An attorney to the New York AG office because the AGs were gonna continue, you know, to be involved as well.

也就是说，我们并没有让他们担任代理律师。

Like, you know, it wasn't like we were placing them as councils.

我们的角色是挺身而出，应对这场风波。

We were here to take on the, you know, storm weed roles.

所以严格来说，你当时是和所有州共同担任律师吗？

So formally speaking, were you associated then as council co council with all the states?

是这么回事，对吧？

Is that how it Right.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, yeah.

我们正式是以纽约州的名义出庭，因为从合同角度来说这样最方便。

I formally, we appeared for the state of New York, but because that was the easiest way to get it done contractually.

但实际上，我们代表的是所有州通力合作的立场。

But we were actually, you know, representing the emphasis all the states are working together.

没错。

Right.

我后来成了联合首席律师，州方也继续协助我们处理一些证人，大家紧密配合，这样工作起来更容易，因为他们早就开始准备了。

And and, like, you know, I became co lead counsel, and we continue to have the states handle some of the witnesses, you know, and and work with us, you know, collaboratively, which also made it more doable because they had been working to prepare.

他们之前就有很长的背景。

They had big they had big history.

没错。

That's right.

后来这个案子进入审判阶段，涉及《谢尔曼反托拉斯法》第一条，也就是非法协议和限制贸易，以及第二条，非法维持垄断地位和企图垄断。

Now now as this case went to trial, there were claims under the Sherman Act Section one, unlawful agreements and restraint of trade, and section two, unlawful maintenance of monopoly power and attempted monopolization.

对。

Right.

在审判过程中，第一条的指控被撤掉了。

And in the in the trial, the the section one claim was dropped.

我听说是法官建议这么做的。

I gather the judge encouraged that.

能跟我们说说具体情况吗？

Can you tell us about that?

当时是怎么考虑的？

What the thinking was on that?

其实情况比这还要复杂一点。

So so it was a little more than that.

法官对部分指控作出了简易判决。

So the judge granted summary judgment against some of the claims.

不过，还是留下了一项关键指控，并不是全部都撤了。

And and we but there still was a a there was one fine claim that remained, so it wasn't like it was completely dropped.

但大多数指控都是关于垄断的第二条指控。

But most of the claims were section two, monopolization claims.

所以这其实算不上一个最终裁决。

So it really wasn't a a decision.

我们后来决定撤回那项剩下的第一条指控，觉得它和第二条指控重复了。

We did decide to drop a section one claim that remained that was duplicative, we thought, the section two claims.

我们觉得，保留它只会让陪审团更难理解。

And we just concluded that it was just gonna make it more complicated for the jury.

坦白说，我们接手后重新评估时，发现政府的案子太复杂了，陪审团很难跟上。

And that, frankly, one of the big decisions we made when we came in, when we reviewed it, we saw that the government's case was a little complex, and it was gonna be difficult for the jury to follow.

所以我们考虑，怎么才能简化案情，减少证人数量，让整个故事更清晰。

And we said, how can we, you know, streamline, simplify, reduce our story, our, you know, reduce the number of witnesses.

证人名单上的人太多了。

There were too many witnesses on the witness list.

没错。

Right.

这让我们不得不认真思考：到底哪些证人是赢得这场官司真正必需的。

And it really kinda focused as to what do we really need to be sufficient to win this case.

我们做的大部分工作其实就是删减。

And that was a lot of what we were doing was cutting.

这确实是最难的部分，任何有经验的出庭律师都明白。

That's the hardest part because any trial lawyer knows.

我们还和司法部的前任团队开了个会，一起复盘案情。

And and we had a meeting with the Department of Justice, outgoing teams, you know, reviewing.

我们说，这个证人删掉，那个也删掉。

Said, oh, we're gonna cut this one and that.

他们也试着提一些建议，比如‘那个证人留着吧’之类的。

And they tried to make some, you know, saying, oh, PSYM cool that one and all that.

我们得判断哪些东西真正重要，哪些可以砍掉。

We had to make judgments as to what actually whatnot.

是的。

Yeah.

Live Nation和Ticketmaster总说市场上竞争者很多，他们成功只是因为做得更好。

Live Nation and Ticketmaster, of course, they say they have lots of competition out there and that they're successful just because they're better.

他们比别人更擅长自己的工作，没错。

They're better at what they do and that they Right.

他们需要这些独家协议，因为得向场地和艺人支付大量费用。

They need these exclusive arrangements because they have to make all these payments to venues and artists.

对。

Right.

我猜这些就是你们当时面临的问题吧。

I assume those are the kind of issues you were facing.

我的意思是，你们是怎么应对‘我们面临很多竞争’这个问题的？

I mean, how how did you address the issue that we have lots of competition.

我们就做得不好。

We're just bad.

这个案子涉及很多不同的问题。

So there are a lot of different issues in the case.

但我觉得真正让案子对我们不利的，是他们手里有大量极具破坏力的文件。

But what really, I think, sort of sprained the case for us is that they had a lot of really damaging documents in the case.

你能举个例子吗？

Can you give us an example?

比如有一份文件，就是所谓的‘煮青蛙’文件。

So for example, one of the documents was really the the boiling the frogs document.

那是一份关于他们如何悄悄提高费用的讨论记录——不是故意隐瞒，而是不向场馆明确说明，打算为新推出的‘白金票价’产品额外加收票务费用。

And that was a discussion

这名字听着挺有意思。

I like the sound of that.

那是一份关于他们如何悄悄提高费用的讨论记录——不是故意隐瞒，而是不向场馆明确说明，打算为新推出的‘白金票价’产品额外加收票务费用。

That was a discussion about how they were going to secretly raise not secretly, but without announcing to the venues or emphasizing, they were going to add additional ticketing fees for a type of new product they would have coming out called platinum pricing.

门票可以采用动态定价。

We could have variable pricing for the tickets.

理论上，等场馆意识到情况不对的时候，青蛙早就被煮熟了。

And that in theory was that by the time the venues recognized what was happening to them, the frogs would already be dead and boil.

他们管这叫‘煮青蛙’，打算借此占便宜，把这笔钱全揣进自己口袋。

And they referred to it, we'll go boil the frogs, and we're gonna get this advantage and be able to keep all this money for ourselves in terms of that.

这只是一个例子。

And so that was one.

他们还有个叫‘天鹅绒铁锤’的文件，讲的是怎么利用权力，拿捏住场馆的软肋，逼他们就范，而且是用这种看似温和实则强硬的方式。

They had another one called the velvet hammer document, which is which spoke about how they would use power withholding their talents to force that to force the venues into doing what they want, and that they would carry this out with the velvet hammer.

我相信在我们公司，

I'm sure at our firm,

我们经常跟客户聊邮件管理的事，比如在WhatsApp或者其他平台上的情况。

we talk to clients a lot about email hygiene, about, you know, whether it's on WhatsApp or whatever.

对。

Right.

你得特别小心自己说的话，因为这些话很容易被曲解。

You really have to be careful about the kinds of things you said because we say, quote, unquote, they're subject to misinterpretation.

我们还真遇到过一回，有人给另一个人写了封信。

We even had we even had one of those where someone wrote to somebody else.

我们也不清楚。

We don't know.

他们留了个语音消息，就是用那个语音留言服务的时候。

They they left a voice message, and it was when they have this service that the voice message

对。

Yes.

录音了。

Recorded.

他们之所以发语音，是因为想保持邮件的清爽。

And the reason they did a voice message is because they were trying to, quote, keep email hygiene.

结果那条语音里说，你绝对不能写这种备忘录，说什么要挤垮竞争对手、搞垄断之类的话。

And the voice message was, you can't write these memos about about driving our competitors out of business and getting, you know, a monopolistic position at all.

然后我们还拿到了那份文件。

And then we had the document.

对吧？

Right?

这下问题更严重了。

So it made it even worse.

但我在法庭上跟陪审团说，如果他们不加以管控，这类文件还不知道会有多少。

But as I was able to say to the jury, you can imagine how many more of these documents we would have had if they weren't policing it.

没错。

Right.

我们曾经有个案子，关键证人在他笔记本电脑上装了一个叫‘证据清除器’的程序。

We had a case once where the crucial witness had run a program on his laptop called Evidence Eliminator.

真的，这名字就是这么写的。

Honestly, that was the name of the program.

结果这个‘证据清除器’还成了呈堂证供。

And and that came into evidence that they used to evidence the eliminator.

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实有一些文件。

And they they had some documents.

他们引起了大量公众关注，人们都在说他们坑害消费者，简直太蠢了。

They got a lot of public attention, you know, talking about ripping off the consumers, and they're so stupid.

这些文件恰恰凸显了他们反竞争的意图。

And just so, again so all those documents sort of frame their anti competitive intent.

对吧？

Right?

这些文件清楚地表明，他们意图利用垄断权力来谋取私利，也揭示了事情的真相。

All those documents sort of frame their intent to use their monopoly power in a way that was gonna benefit themselves and, you know, and sort of, you know, pointed out the truth of what was there.

这些文件对帮助陪审团理解事实起到了很大作用。

So that was a lot of of help in terms of making these facts understandable to the jury.

但我们还有其他很多常规证据，比如我们的专家提供的关于他们行为的扎实经济分析。

But we also had a lot of other just normal we had we had we had really good economic evidence about what they did by one of our experts.

他们请了三位经济学专家出庭，但我觉得他们在交叉质询中表现得很差，反而拖了他们的后腿。

We really they they marched out three different economic experts who I thought really did very poorly on cross examination and didn't help their cause because of that.

其中一个关键问题是，专利垄断对产品质量到底带来了什么影响？

One of the issues is what did patent demonopolization add on product quality?

他们总是大谈特谈，说我们的产品是最好的，人人都喜欢我们，我们有多厉害。

And they would make all these arguments about, oh, we have the best product, and everyone loves us, that we're great.

但现在我们手上有大量内部文件，显示他们所谓的高质量产品根本名不副实。

And now we have all these internal documents about these huge quality products that they have.

没错。

Right.

所以，他们想讲的故事和自己文件里暴露的事实之间，存在巨大的可信度鸿沟。

So, again, there was a whole credibility gap between the story they wanted to tell and what their own documents showed, in terms of that.

现在陪审团需要按每张票来判定赔偿金额。

Now the the jury was asked to decide damages on a per ticket basis.

对。

Yes.

这个决定是在我们介入之前做的，结果反而很好，因为确实存在一个争议点，陪审团很难轻易弄清楚。

That decision was made before we became involved, and it actually worked out very well because there was this real dispute that the jury would not be easily able to ascertain.

于是法官说，我会在赔偿听证会上单独处理这个问题，也就是每个司法管辖区、每家影院、每一年涉及多少张票。

So the judge said, I will do this separately at a at the remedies hearing, which is how many tickets were at issue for each of the 34 jurisdictions in which theaters, in which years.

他说，既然超额收费的金额是一样的，那就让陪审团只判断每张票是否存在超额收费，剩下的计算工作我们自己来做。说实话，我很庆幸当时做了这个决定，但你也能想象，要是让陪审团自己算账，律师得多头疼。

And he said since his damages were the same overcharge, we'll just have the jury decide if there was an overcharge on a per ticket basis of what it was, and then we could do the math to submissions there, which frankly, I'm glad that decision was made, but you can imagine a trial lawyer having to have the jury do the math.

是的。

Yeah.

34个州啊，你想想，要判断到底该从哪个日期开始计算，这个争议可不小。

I'm But 34 states, you know, when to read this this debate as to whether it starts

我宁愿让法院来处理这个。

I'd rather have the court do that.

对。

Right.

是这个日期还是那个日期。

On this date versus that date.

对吧？

Right?

因为很多问题都跟诉讼时效有关。

Because a lot of it had to do with statute limitations.

是的。

Yeah.

到底该以哪个日期为准？

And which date it would pick off?

对。

Yeah.

那现在救济阶段的情况怎么样？

So what is the status of the remedies phase now?

我们已经和各州一起提交了我们打算请求的救济方式，以及这一阶段所需的证据开示类型。

So we we have submitted with the states the types of remedies we're gonna be asking for and the types of discovery you would like in connection with this phase.

接下来法官得制定时间表，并确定证据开示的范围。

The judge then has to set a schedule and decide on the scope of the discovery.

这一阶段的救济措施大部分不会涉及赔偿金。

Most of the remedies won't be the damages in this phase.

现在主要关注的是禁令和不公平的许可问题。

It'll now be the injunctive and inequitable leave.

各州要求的一项救济措施是结构性的，希望让票务大师从Live Nation分拆出去。

Part of the relief the states are seeking is structural, to have Ticketmaster spin off spun off from Live Nation.

还有一部分是针对行为的救济。

Part of it is conduct related relief.

这些救济方案非常复杂，需要仔细审议。

It's a very complicated set of relief proposals that'll be considered.

所以，这肯定是个特别令人兴奋的案子，对吧？

So, I mean, this this must have been a, obviously, really exciting case to try.

你整个职业生涯都在打反垄断案。

You've been trying the antitrust cases your whole career.

你当初是怎么开始接触反垄断领域的？

How did you get into how did you get into antitrust in the beginning?

我去了哥伦比亚法学院。

So I went to Columbia Law School.

在哥伦比亚法学院，我把反垄断法当选修课来上。

Columbia Law School, I took any antitrust courses as an elective.

大一那会儿，这还是我第三选择。

My first year, it was my third choice.

但我觉得这些案子本身特别有意思。

But I found the cases just intrinsically really interesting.

我喜欢这种把经济学和政策带入行业的做法，得深入了解每个行业的具体情况，真正影响行业的运作方式。

I like the idea that that you're bringing kind of like economics and policy into industries, and you learn the facts of each industry, and that you really should make a difference in affecting how that industry operates.

我当时就想，这真是太有意思了。

I said, boy, this is really interesting stuff.

所以当我做暑期实习生的时候，就选了那家律所。

And so I chose a firm at the time when I a summer associate.

我第一份实习的律所，当时在纽约的反垄断业务非常强，由劳宾和艾拉·米尔斯泰因带队。

My first firm was and at the time, they had a fantastic New York antitrust practice led by Law-being and Ira Millstein.

伊拉·米尔斯坦成了我的导师。

And Ira Millstein, Ira became my mentor.

我就是这么踏入反垄断领域的。

And that's how I got into the world of antitrust.

所以一开始做反垄断，其实是因为他。

So I've sort of been doing antitrust in the beginning because of that.

代表州政府和总检察长，跟代表私人当事人，感觉有什么不同？

What was it like representing states, the attorney generals, rather than private litigant?

你以前做过这种案子吗？

Have you ever done that before?

是什么样的体验？

What's it like?

我以前没做过。

I have not I have not done it before.

挺有意思的。

It was quite interesting.

首先，这让我们结识了很多同行。

First of all, it gave us a lot of colleagues.

各个州参与的律师都很优秀，我们都把他们纳入了团队。

We had some very good lawyers at these different states who were participating, and and we included them.

我们组成了一个无缝协作的庭审团队，每天都和他们一起工作。

We made kind of like a seamless trial team, and so we were working with them every day.

他们非常支持我们。

They were very supportive.

但这也让事情变得复杂，因为实际上有34个投票方。

But it also made it complicated because, in effect, there was there were 34 votes.

虽然我们有个核心团队，但每遇到重大决策，都得通知全体成员，争取大家达成一致——我不确定他们有没有正式投票，因为我没参与那部分，但必须让每个人都参与进来，达成共识。

So that even though we had a a an organizing team, that team had a if there were big decisions to be made and things, they had to inform the whole group and get the whole group to the you know, I don't know if they actually took formal votes because I wasn't one of those, but they had to come to a consensus and keep everyone involved.

当有这么多州、各自利益不同，对下一步该怎么做看法也不一的时候，这个客户确实挺难协调的。

So it's a complicated client when you have a lot of different states with different interests than a lot, you know, as as to how to proceed.

不过大部分庭审决策，我们还是和委员会一起推进的。

But I think for most part of the trial decisions, we worked with the committee.

只要委员会支持我们，他们总能说服其他各州跟进并达成一致。

And if the committee would agree with us, I think they were always able to get the rest of the states to go along and and reach reach an agreement.

那么，这个案子中你们遇到的最大困难有哪些呢？

I mean, what were some of the biggest challenges you faced in the case?

我的意思是，你们一开始也是用别人提供的证人吧。

I mean, you it sounds like you, you know, we all start with the witnesses that were given.

证据材料也是别人给的。

We start with the documents that were given.

我们接手的就是这些证据。

We inherit that evidence.

你们手头的文件确实挺不错的，但我想肯定也遇到不少难题。

Sounds like you had some really good documents, but I'm sure there were some real challenges too.

确实有不少棘手的问题。

There were there were some there were some real challenges.

你知道的。

You know?

很明显，有些在证据开示阶段根本没做的事，如果我们有相关信息的话本来是可以做的。

Obviously, there were things that were never done in discovery that we would have done that we just didn't have any information.

我们连时间都对不上。

We'll date us.

这些东西根本用不了。

We couldn't use it.

关于谁该列在证人名单上、谁不该列，这些决定我们都没法改。

There were decisions made as to who to be on a witness list and not be on a witness list that we couldn't change.

比如，我本来想请一些艺术家出庭作证，但证人名单上一个艺术家都没有。

Like, for example, one of the things I would have done that couldn't do is I would have tried to call some artists to be witnesses, and there were no artists on the witness list.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

对。

Yeah.

所以你们没能让艺术家受害者本人来发声。

So you didn't you didn't have you didn't have the voice of the artist victims talking.