习近平特辑 | 柠檬水摊 🍋

你的人生就全不一样了。

Your whole life's different.

是的。

Yeah.

但在这个体系中，穷人越来越难利用它来取得成功。

But it's getting harder for poor people in this system to use it to succeed.

因此，由于这些激励因素，富裕的父母会不惜任何代价聘请私人教师或其他资源，只为让孩子获得优势。

So because of those incentives, wealthy parents will spend any amount of money on private tutors, private anything to get their kid an advantage.

而政府曾试图通过禁止这些行为来遏制，但结果只是让它们转入地下。

And the state tried to crack down on that by banning that, but all it did was move it underground.

我们交谈过的每一个人，就像你说的，都认为这种现象并没有消失。

Not a single person we talked, like you said, thinks that it's gone.

因此，你知道，这正成为一个严重的问题，人们只是不断竞争，却几乎原地踏步。

And so, you know, this is becoming a huge problem where people are just constantly competing to stay in almost the same spot.

根本没有人真正取得进步。

Like, there's nobody really getting ahead.

而且显然，过去情况并不一样。

And apparently, it used to be different.

比如，我会跟29岁的人聊天。

Like, I would talk to who's 29.

他说，是的。

Was like, yeah.

那时候你可以知道，我努力学习了，但没那么拼命，顺便说一句，根据你所说的，我觉得他其实是。

That used to be you could know, I studied hard, but not that hard, which by the way, I think he's like based on what you're saying, you

你看起来挺优秀的。

seem like you're pretty good.

像个谦虚的人。

Seem a humble guy.

我很好奇，当你提到打篮球的时候。

I was wondering when you when you shared about playing basketball.

我当时想，天啊。

I was like, damn.

孩子们从晚上10点打篮球到午夜。

Kids are playing basketball from 10PM until midnight.

但后来我仔细想了想。

But then I thought about it.

我当时想，也许这正是他们唯一能打球的时间。

I was like, maybe this is the only time they

他们唯一能做这件事的时间。

have to do it.

他们说，这真的是我们唯一的时间。

They said, literally, this is our only time.

这是我们唯一的休息时间。

This is our break.

我当时说，你们压力很大吗？

I was like, you guys stressed?

他们说，是的。

They said yes.

他们说，还有两个月。

They're like, it's in two months.

他们正在拼命努力。

They're they're grinding.

我很好奇，从你和那两个年轻人的聚会中，比如昨晚打篮球这件事，你们有没有发现他们目前在经历什么？

From I'm curious from either either of you, like, from these hangouts with the, you know, these two younger people Yeah.

昨晚打篮球，你们还注意到他们目前在应对什么其他重要事情吗？

The basketball last night, any more big takeaways of what they're dealing with at the moment?

我了解到一些他们的薪资情况。

I got some pay for you.

他们愿意分享自己的薪资，所以我们可以一起讨论一下。

So they were willing to share their pay, and I and so we could share it on the thing.

哇，真的吗？

Oh, wow.

我觉得这是一个很有趣的例子。

I think this is an interesting example.

我们接触过各个阶层的人，包括一位月收入约一万元人民币的外卖司机。

We've talked to folks across the spectrum, including a delivery driver who made, I believe, 10,000 RMB a month.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这就是我们最终了解到的情况。

Was what we landed on.

我们谈到了那个，那是在上海。

We talked to That was in Shanghai.

那是在上海。

That was in Shanghai.

上海。

Shanghai.

他一直在拼命工作。

He was grinding.

这更高，他一直在拼命工作。

Which is higher, he was grinding.

在重庆，我们采访了一位导游，他一辈子都住在那儿。

In Chongqing, we talked to our tour guide who's lived there our whole life.

她说，在重庆，收入低的每月大约是四五千人民币。

She was saying that on the lower end for Chongqing, it's like 4 to 5,000 RMB a month.

嗯。

Mhmm.

西，你能算一下这相当于多少美元吗？

Xi, could you how what is that in US dollars?

好的。

Okay.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我也会去谷歌查一下。

I'll Google it as well.

谢谢。

Thank you.

只是确认一下。

Just to check.

你是在核实习近平的信息。

You're fact checking Xi Jinping.

这让我想起了艾登昨晚的事。

That reminds me of Aiden last night.

你刚才说什么？

What did you say?

你说，我觉得……什么？

You said, I think What?

你说，我觉得习近平可能有个英文翻译。

You said, I think Xi Jinping probably has a a translator for English.

那是我回答过最蠢的问题。

It was the dumbest thing I've ever answered.

我只是在开玩笑。

I was making a joke.

不是。

No.

你把它变成一个笑话了。

You turned it into a joke.

哥们儿，我就是在开个该死的玩笑。

I was dude, I was making a fucking joke.

我们在聊他的习近平。

I was We were talking about his Jinping.

我们在聊。

Were talking

如果他会说英语，因为当我查过之后，我从未找到过他公开说英语的视频。

if speaks English because when I looked this up, I've never been able to find public video of him doing so.

我当时就想，他 probably 有个翻译。

And I and I was just like, he's probably got a guy.

他 probably 有个帮手。

He's probably got a guy.

哪个Xi，你

Which Xi, do

你有吗？

you have that?

是的。

Yeah.

我脑子很清楚。

My mind's right.

你没有吗？

You don't?

天啊。

Gee.

如果你不是在开玩笑，这个采访会简单多了。

This interview would be a lot easier if you just I wasn't joking.

好的。

Okay.

所以在重庆，低收入端每月大约是5000元人民币，4到5000元，约合720美元。

So on the low end in Chongqing, it was, like, 5,000 RMB a month, 4 to 5,000, which is about 720 US dollars.

而对于那些做得不错的外卖员来说，按照这个行业的标准，每月收入是1400美元，也就是10000元人民币。

And then for the you know, somebody who's doing well, you know, by the by standards with delivery driver, that's 1,400 US dollars a month, 10,000 RMB.

相比之下，这两个人从事的是更偏白领的工作。

So by contrast, these two folks are in a more white collar job.

他们每月收入约为21000元人民币，折合3000美元。

It's about 21,000 RMB a month, and that's $3,000.

所以这已经接近美国那种水平的薪资了。

So this is getting to, like, you know, sort of America salaries in that general range.

对吧？

Right?

所以问到这个，我只是想知道，你对自己的收入感觉如何？

And so asking that, I was just like, how do you feel about your pay?

他们说，待遇非常好。

And they're like, it is great.

真的很好。

It is really good.

比如华为，工资很高。

Like, Huawei pays well.

这家香港公司工资也很高。

This Hong Kong company pays well.

很多人不了解的是，香港就在深圳下面。

What happens a lot for Hong Kong for people who are not aware, it's right below Shenzhen.

所以很多人住在这座城市，因为这里规模巨大、发展迅速，而且便宜得多。

So a lot of people live here in this city because it's so massive and there's so much development, and it's way, way cheaper.

他们每天只是通勤到香港。

And they just commute into Hong Kong every day.

坐火车大概一个半小时，但大家都说：你看。

It's like an hour and a half by train, but everybody's like, look.

在这里会便宜不少，你知道的。

It's gonna be, you know, x x amount cheaper here.

就像那些在法国乡村工作、却通勤到瑞士的人一样。

That's it's like those people that work in they work in, like, rural parts of France, and then they commute into Switzerland.

你从一个生活成本低廉的地区，前往世界上最有钱的地方之一，

It's like you're going from just a low cost living area to one of the most expensive places in the world,

然后

and then

你只要跨过边境回家，生活成本又神奇地变便宜了。

you just go home across a border and it gets magically cheaper again.

是的。

Yeah.

但我问过他们一个问题，你们选择这些工作是因为喜欢，还是因为这是你们唯一能拿到的工作？

But one of the things I asked was, like, did you guys pick these jobs because you liked it, or is it, like, the one job you could get?

他们说，这就是唯一能拿到的工作。

And they're like, it's the one job.

就像，这真的很艰难。

Like, it there it is rough.

听起来，和我们一样，年轻人觉得找工作真的很难。

It sounds like, again, just like us, young people are like, it's really hard to find a job.

你没有太多选择。

You don't have a lot of choice.

竞争非常激烈。

It's super competitive.

所以你只能接受能拿到的工作。

So you take what you can get.

他们俩的情况都像是，并不真正喜欢自己的工作。

And both of them are in situations where it sounds like they don't necessarily love their job.

我不知道你是否觉得这公平。

I don't know if you think that's fair.

顺便说一下，习近平当时在那里。

Xi Jinping was there, by the way.

是的。

Yeah.

但他们还是觉得，算了。

But they're still like, okay.

这对现状来说挺好的。

It's great for the current.

所以，你知道，那位在华为工作的人正在考虑去香港读硕士，但担心的是，如果他这么做了，就会离开现在的工作。

So even well, you know, the the guy who works at Huawei is considering doing a master's in Hong Kong, but the fear is if he does that, he's leaving his current job.

谁知道他会不会……

Who knows if he'll

很难找到新工作。

Hard to find a new one.

谁知道他能不能找到一份新工作？

Who knows if he'll be able to get one?

谁知道，就像在美国一样，高等教育是否还那么有价值？而且在中国，上学确实得花钱，据说是这样。

Who knows if, again, just like in America, if a higher education is even gonna be that valuable, and you do have to pay for school here in in China, apparently.

这里有一件我之前不知道的疯狂事。

And here's one of the crazy things I didn't know.

在美国，如果你来美国大学读书，不仅要交学费，作为国际学生，即使来自其他州，学费也高得多。

In America, if you come and study at American University, not only do you pay tuition, you pay way more as a foreign student, even out of state.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对吧？

Right?

去加州大学系统。

To go to to the UCS.

所以大学特别喜欢这个，因为他们靠这个赚大钱。

That's why the universities love it because they make bank off.

他们从国际学生身上赚了大量钱。

They make tons of money off of foreign students.

即使是 mainland 中国居民去香港读书，也要被收取外国学生费用。

Even someone a Mainland China resident who goes to studies in Hong Kong gets charged a foreigner tax.

因为这个原因，学费上涨了，我觉得这太疯狂了。

The rate goes up because of that, which I was like, that is that is crazy.

所以这是一个国家，两种制度。

So it's it's one party, two systems.

它们就在彼此旁边。

They're right next to each other.

人们从深圳通勤过来，但你却被当成外国人。

They're commuting from Shenzhen, and it's like, well, you're a foreigner.

你住在内地，而不是香港。

You live in Mainland China instead of Hong Kong.

这个税。

That tax.

天哪。

Gee.

我开始觉得它似乎并不像是中国的一部分

I'm starting to be I'm starting to feel like it's not a part of China in the

以同样的方式

same way that

其余部分

the rest of the

然后我看到另一个有趣的细节，他的女朋友经营着一个小型时尚品牌。

and then another kind of fun tidbit I saw was that he his girlfriend runs a small fashion brand.

我觉得他们公司只有三个人在运营。

There's, like, I think three of them running the company.

他们会选择自己喜欢的单品。

And they they, like, pick items that they that they like.

我觉得他们也会做一些设计。

I think they do some designing.

有些是他们找到的商品，然后作为自己品牌的一部分进行销售。

Some is, like, they find items, and then they're kind of selling them as part of their brands.

他们把自己包装成一个颇具特色的时尚品牌。

They're they're pitching himself as this, you know, sort of niche fashion brand.

所以这是一个小企业，他们的营销完全依靠直播。

So small business, and their marketing is all from live streaming.

所以每天晚上，我不确定一周有多少天，但我觉得大多数晚上都是从晚上9点到凌晨1点，他们在直播，就像你见过的那种，展示不同的衣服。

So every night, I I don't know how many days a week, but I think most nights a week from 9PM to 1AM, they are streaming those streams you've seen where they're just should like, showing different clothes.

有人走到镜头前说，这件衣服看起来真的很棒。

It's somebody walking up to the camera and saying, this article of clothing looks really great.

他们把衣服穿上。

They put it on.

然后脱下来。

They take it off.

接着换下一件。

They go to the next one.

然后给我看了在中国版的TikTok上的内容。

And then showed me on the, you know, Chinese TikTok, basically.

淘宝。

Taobao.

这更像一个电商平台还是TikTok？

Is it more of a marketplace or a TikTok?

这是亚马逊。

It's Amazon.

好的。

Okay.

所以它们相当于亚马逊。

So they're equivalent of Amazon.

应用里的第二个标签是购物直播，最热门的直播有十万人在观看。

The, like, second tab on the app is shopping livestreams, and they had a 100,000 people watching all the top ones.

所有最热门的直播，就是人们不断试穿和脱下各种衣物。

All the top ones, which is just people putting on items of clothing or showing things on and off.

脱下。

Off.

这就是他女朋友做直播的方式，因为是实时的。

And this is how his girlfriend their streams because it was live.

我们当时是实时看到的。

We, like, saw it live.

每场直播只有大约80个观众，但已经足够吸引一些回头客和几笔订单了。

It's only, like, 80 viewers per stream, but that's enough to get, like, a couple repeat customers and a couple orders.

而且，据说你得在晚上做，因为那时候大家都下班回家了，更愿意花钱。

And, apparently, you do this at night because then everybody's home from work, and they're more likely to spend money.

这现在就是你做营销的方式。

And this is just like the way you market right now.

这简直太疯狂了。

And it's fucking wild.

是的。

Yeah.

最大的那些主播月入上百万。

The biggest ones are making millions.

他们每天能卖出数百万美元的商品。

They're moving millions of dollars of product.

这已经持续一段时间了，他们一直在努力在美国或至少在西方实现这种模式。

This has been for a while now, and they keep trying to make it happen in America or in the West at least.

我想你听说过Whatnot。

I think you heard of whatnot.

它正开始兴起。

It's, like, starting to pop off.

他们正在尝试这么做。

They're trying to do it.

他们试图向中国的直播购物学习，但在西方还没真正流行起来。

It's, like, all trying to learn from the Chinese livestream shopping, but it hasn't quite hit over in the

我不明白。

I don't get it.

我不想他妈的看别人给我推销衣服，但这确实让人上瘾。

I don't wanna fucking watch someone advertising me clothes, but it is like brain rot.

这就像以前的QVC很火一样。

It's like it's really QVC was big.

这是给美容师用的。

Is for groomers.

我猜这最终可能会变成Zoom或QVC。

I assume this could be Zoom or QVC eventually.

QVC曾经很火，因为那时候没什么别的可看。

QVC was big because nobody there's nothing else to watch.

对吧？

Right?

就像凌晨三点你醒着，但频道里什么都没有。

That's like at 3AM, you're awake, and there's nothing on the channel

也许这就是了。

to Maybe this is that.

你看着一个人，背景像是

You watch somebody with this background of like

你小时候有没有看过电视上的直销广告，然后想过：到底谁在看这个？

Haven't you ever had that thought of as a kid seeing infomercials on TV and being like, who the fuck watches this?

然后意识到我们其实都一样。

And then realizing that we're all the same.

这真是这真是

It's it's

斯塔维克斯说她妈妈现在只在直播购物里买衣服。

Stavix Stavix said her mom exclusively buys livestream shopping clothes now.

她所有的衣服都在那里买。

That's where she that's where she buys all her clothes.

这规模太大了。

It's a it's massive.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

他们有没有跟你聊过他们的工作？我的意思是，对于学校里的孩子，这种情况可能有点不一样。

Did they talk to you at all about their I mean, I guess for the kids in school, this would be a little different.

但对这些工作来说，他们会谈论自己的工作时间吗？

But for these jobs, do they talk about their hours at all?

我们听说过一些关于那方面的事情。

We've heard a few things about that.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，原来如此，这很有趣。

Oh oh, so that's interesting.

在我们的读书俱乐部里，你可以通过我们的二级 Patreon 订阅收听，去年我们读了两本关于中国的书。

So in our book club that you can listen to with our tier two Patreon, we read two books about China last year.

其中一本叫《破晓》，我强烈推荐。

One is called breakneck, which I really recommend.

它基本上是在比较美国和中国。

It's basically comparing America to China.

我认为这两本中这本更好。

I think that was the better of the two.

但我们还读了另一本叫《华为之家》的书，讲的是华为这家公司的历史。

But there's also the book house of Huawei, which we also read, which is about the history of Huawei, the company.

给人们一个非常简短的入门介绍。

Very short primer for people.

这是当深圳成为类似经济特区的资本主义中心时兴起的一家公司，之后逐步发展，专注于电信领域。

This is one of the companies that started up when Shenzhen became, like, the special economic Capitalism zone, and then they built up and it's all telecoms.

它们逐渐遍布中国，然后开始向全球扩张，随后与美国爆发了一场臭名昭著的冲突：特朗普将矛头对准华为，称其为安全威胁，并促使全球大部分国家停止使用并打压华为。

And they sort of spread throughout China, then start spreading throughout the world, and then there's this infamous battle with The United States where Trump locked onto Huawei and said, this is a security threat and got the entire world the sort of most of the world to stop using them and attack them.

这几乎相当于公司的丧钟。

So it's like a death knell for the company.

在这本书中，他们谈到华为早期时，人们真的累到工作至死。

So in that book, they talk about how in the early days of Huawei, people literally worked themselves to death.

嗯。

Mhmm.

literally 有人在办公室因过度劳累和疲惫而去世，或者被派往偏远村庄等地。

Like, literally would die in the office from overwork and exhaustion, or they would be going out into, like, small villages and whatnot.

如果晚上没能完成公司要求的业务目标，没能亲自拿下所有潜在客户，还要陪客户狂饮，你就是个失败者。

And the expectation is if you don't return with all of the business that we asked, if you don't personally take out all of the potential clients every night, hardcore heavy drinking, you're a failure.

所以这家公司二十到三十年来一直非常疯狂。

So it's really, really insane of a company for, like, twenty or thirty years.

听起来现在轻松多了。

It sounds like it's a lot more chill now.

对他来说，工作时间是早上九点到下午六点。

So for him, his hours are, like, you know, nine to six.

每周工作五天，但每个月的第四个周六必须来上班。

It's five days a week, except the fourth Saturday of every month you have to go in.

所以不再是被迫每周工作六七天，而是五天，再加上这一天。

So instead of being forced to go six to seven days a week, it's five and then this.

但他接着补充说，他的公寓现在也轻松多了。

But then he followed up and said, like, I have a more chilled apartment.

但有些部门仍然在疯狂地拼命工作。

Some of the departments are are still going insanely hard.

关于华为早期那些疯狂的故事中，有一件特别离谱的事。

And then one of the wild things is with the crazy stories about Huawei in the early days.

他们会有资深员工，这些员工只要达到一定年限，按法律规定就能获得晋升、终身职位等福利。

They would have senior employees who were hitting the, like, kind of, like, you're gonna get a promotion and get tenure and get all these things by law.

如果员工工作满九到十年，这些人会主动辞职，然后立刻被重新聘用。

If you're hitting the nine or ten year mark, those people would voluntarily quit the company, immediately get rehired.

这样，华为就不用再为你增加开支，而你则是在为公司做出牺牲。

And that way, Huawei doesn't have to spend more money on you, and you're, like, sacrificing for the company.

这种做法至今仍然存在。

That still exists.

他说道：‘哦，是的。’

He was like, oh, yeah.

现在还是有人这么做。

People still do that.

这太

That's

疯狂了。

crazy.

一旦你工作了九到十年，准备获得晋升时，你就辞职。

Once you get to the point where you're ready to get promoted after, like, nine or ten years with the company, you quit.

这样他们可以以同样的职位重新雇用你，让你无法获得晋升。

So they can rehire you at your same position so you don't have to be promoted.

这就是这家公司所具备的这种高强度文化。

That's the kind of intensity that they have for this company.

我们聊过的那位29岁的人提到过关于年龄的事，我以为他会说35岁或45岁，但他表示，过了那个年纪，这些科技公司就不想要你了。

The the 29 year old we talked to did mention something about he's like he talked about age and how I thought if he said 35 or 45, but he's like, after that, they don't want you for these tech companies.

比如他说，我必须现在就赚到钱，因为之后就很难再留住我了，因为我不会再愿意投入那么多小时，或者他们也不会给我那么高的报酬。

Like, he's like, they I have to, like, make the money now because after that, it's, like, much harder for them to keep me because I'm not gonna want to put too many hours or they're gonna not pay me as well.

好的。

Okay.

等等。

Wait.

最后再补充一点。

One final tidbit.

有一个故事非常引人入胜。

There are a story that was fascinating.

在你参加华为的现场面试之前，他们会进行一项性格测试，比如迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试。

Part of the interviews before you go into, like, in person interviews with Huawei, they do a personality test, like a Myers Briggs personality test.

你回答所有这些问题，只有通过了他们才会让你进入下一轮。

You answer all these questions, and they only are gonna move you to the next round.

他们两人都申请过，她申请后被拒了。

Both of them had actually applied, and and she had applied and gotten denied.

他专门研究了如何回答性格测试，以便让自己显得非常顺从，结果他顺利进入了下一轮。

And he specifically looked up how to answer the personality test so they would make him look really submissive, and that got him the next round.

他们真的把性格测试当作筛选工具，专门挑选那些顺从、愿意无条件服从命令的人，而这些人正是他们录用的对象。

So they literally use a personality test as a barrier to find people who are submissive and will do whatever they're told to do, like, endless amounts, and those are the people they hire.

这简直太疯狂了。

That's fucking crazy.

我觉得这在几乎所有公司都是一种普遍现象，我们不会这么做，

I think this is a theme across pretty much any We don't do that,

但我们至少敢当面这么说。

but we have the balls to do it in person.

你知道的。

You know?

没错。

Right.

他们只是

They just

至少我们当面告诉你。

At least we say it to your face.

我们当面告诉你。

We say it to your face.

你并不软弱。

You're not weak.

这里的人工作极其努力。

The people work extraordinarily hard here.

我听大家提到，过去几十年里，工人的权益确实在逐步改善，但现在无论什么岗位，大家的工作时长都离谱得很。

I think we have heard from people that workers' rights have improved over time, like, over the last few decades, but the hours that people work is, like, the standard at whatever job people are at are pretty extreme.

就比如我们之前和服装厂的老板聊天的时候，他说厂里几乎所有人都是每周上六天班，早九晚六，还经常要加班。

Like, we were talking to the factory owner, and it sounds like most people at the the factory that makes clothes, everybody there comes in six days a week, 9AM to 6PM, and also often work overtime.

至于办公室的职员，倒是少上一天班，

And then with people in the offices, they drop a day.

他们每周只工作五天。

They work, like, five days a week.

你刚才说五个半小时。

You said five and a half.

对。

Yeah.

他说的是五个半小时。

He said five and a half.

这么说你周六还得过来上班啊。

So it's like you're still going in on a Saturday.

你只能在晚上属于自己。

You just get to have the evening to yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这种情况一直延续着。

And and then I think that's carried through.

比如，那个说做配送月入一万的年轻人，他每周工作七天，他明确说过。

Like, even the the one kid who was talking about making 10,000 you want a month from doing delivery, he is working seven he literally said

他每周工作七天。

he works seven days a week.

我在这里认识的每一个人，几乎没有谁不是几乎达到人们常说的‘996’工作制，从和大家的交谈来看，这种现象确实非常普遍。

And I I do not think there's a single person I've talked to here where they're not verging on like, the 966 thing that you hear about Chinese work hours seems to be very true from talking to everybody.

996。

996.

9996。

9996.

一周工作六天。

Six days a week.

是的。

Yeah.

工作时间太残酷了。

It's it's a it's brutal hours.

而且我在等。

And I wait.

抱歉。

Sorry.

你继续说。

Keep going.

不。

No.

我的意思是，不是每天 literally 九点到九点，但大多数人每天至少工作九小时，每周六天

I I mean, not literate not literally nine to nine every day, but the most people working at least nine hours every day, six days

啊，工厂。

a Oh, the factory.

我记得。

I remember.

所以我们参观了工厂，他当时说，

The the so we toured the factory, and he had,

呃，背景是什么？

like What's the context?

对于不了解的人，这个工厂是做什么的？

What is this factory for people who don't know?

我们并不是随便地，比如，直接

We didn't just, like, roll

生产一些随机的衬衫。

up random shirts.

所以这个工厂，有趣的是，我们有机会去参观了为Mogul Moves生产大部分裁剪和缝制服装的工厂。

So the factory, interestingly enough, is had the opportunity to go to the factory that makes most of the cut and sew clothes for mogul moves in the yard.

我们和他们合作了大概五年，我想。

And we've worked with them for, like, five years, I think.

所以工厂的老板给我们全面参观了整个设施。

So the owner of the factory gave us a full tour of the facility.

与其他工厂相比，这是一个相对较小的工厂。

It's a relatively small factory compared to other ones.

然后我们坐下来对他进行了两个小时的采访，之后又去吃了一顿两个半小时的晚餐。

And then we sat down and got to interview him for two hours, and then we went to another, like, two and a half hour dinner.

是的。

And yeah.

所以这就是我们找到这家工厂的背景。

So that's the the context of how we found this.

他是个非常有趣的人。

He was a fascinating guy.

他的生活啊，这人看起来四十岁，实际上已经六十岁了。

His life I mean, the guy looked 40 but was actually 60.

我简直不敢相信。

I couldn't believe that.

我当时

I was

而且经历过兄弟和天哪，是的。

And had been through bro and holy Yeah.

他真是我的朋友。

Was really my friend.

我们离开时他还和我们碰拳致意。

He was dapping us as we left.

他就这样跟我们道别。

That was how he left.

那是个玩笑。

It was a joke.

哥们，想看看我的新车吗？

Guys wanna check out my new car?

那就像

It was like

正如我们提到的，这是其中一位比较积极的人。

here's one of the guys, as we mentioned, who's a little more positive.

实际上，非常积极。

Actually, a lot more positive.

他要积极得多。

He was a way more positive.

因为这位先生，你知道，他已经64岁了，从毛泽东时代一直活到现在，见证了中国发生的巨大剧变。

Because this guy, you know, he's 64, which means he had been around for Mao through now and seen just absolute radical changes in China.

而且，你知道，整个城市都发生了翻天覆地的变化。

And and like, you know, overall up into the right massive changes in the city.

所以，你知道，他有一辆很棒的车，简直过得风风光光。

So and, you know, he had a really nice car and, like, he's like, he's balling.

他确实说想退休，但他的老板——也就是他妻子——不让他退。

He did say he wanted to retire, but his boss, which is his wife, wouldn't let him.

但不管怎样，还是说说工厂吧。

But anyway, so or the factory.

关于工时的问题，我们正在参观工厂。

On the hours discussion, I'm touring we're touring the factory.

就像你所说的，他们工作得很认真。

And it was like, like you said, they're working diligently.

我没看到他们有很多休息时间，而且好像……

I don't see any a lot of breaks, and it's like

没有孩子。

No kids.

他提到我……

He mentioned I

我想说得特别清楚。

wanna I wanna make it so clear.

没有孩子。

No kids.

他们是我见过的年纪最大的孩子了。

They're the oldest kids I've ever seen.

如果他们是

If they're

孩子的话，看起来有些头发已经灰了。

kids, they look there's some gray hair.

我原本确信Mobile Moves会使用童工。

I was so sure that Mobile Moves would use child labor.

我只是觉得那是Ludwig的品牌风格。

I just thought that's Ludwig's brand.

那就是他会用的方式。

That's what he's gonna use.

但那里根本没有孩子。

But there was no children there.

事实上，那位负责人特别提到，这些工人非常有经验，而且都不是孩子。

And in fact, the guy made a specific mention of, like, how experienced and and not children these workers were.

但当你发现他们并没有你期望的那种灵巧手指时，你感到失望吗？

But were you upset to see that they didn't have the same nimble fingers that you had hoped for when you

你是在捣鼓什么烂活儿吗？

were hacking the shit?

晃动着他的手。

Shaking his hands.

艾登只是说：这根本不是我期望的那种严苛标准。

Aiden was just like, this is not the cruel standards that I had hoped for.

我不是跟你说过我不想在这期节目里谈这个吗？

I told you I didn't wanna talk about this on the episode.

我不想再深挖了

Don't I don't wanna dig

深入这个话题。

into this.

是的。

Yeah.

但那里有一个排行榜。

But there's a there's a leaderboard.

你知道，有些人像在缝衣服，他们有一个数字排行榜，追踪每个人的名字和产量，我的意思是，这在工厂里可能很常见，但那种产出水平和一致性真的让人震惊。

You know, there are people like sewing clothes and they had like a digital leaderboard tracking everyone's name and the number of, I mean, this is probably standard in a factory, but it just was, there was wild, you know, the level of output and consistency.

我呢，我觉得那里的待遇各方面都还不错，但就是工作时间太长了。

I'm I, and I think the, the the treatment, everything there was good, but it's just it's it's a it's a lot of hours.

工作量很大。

It's a lot of work.

是的。

Yeah.

我其实没太理解制作衣服这一整套流程的方方面面。

I don't think I really understood the the one, all of the ins and outs of the process to make the clothes itself.

只是看到这些真的很有意思。

It it was really interesting to just see that.

但接着他们居然工作这么疯狂的时长。

But then also what, like, they work these crazy hours.

但他们还由工厂提供午餐和晚餐，这听起来很平常。

They but they also get lunch and dinner provided by the factory, which sounds like is normal.

而且他们中的许多人就住在隔壁的公寓楼里，这似乎在许多大型工厂中也非常普遍。

And then they also a lot of them lived in the apartment complex literally next door, and it seems like something similar is is very standard at a lot of the larger factories too.

是的。

Yep.

本节目由Tastytrade赞助。

Support for this show comes from tastytrade.

伙计们，我真受够了你们在这档节目里连基本的金融术语都不懂。

Guys, I'm getting real tired of you not knowing serious financial terms on this show.

明白吗？

Okay?

史蒂夫·艾斯曼来做客时，我们连复杂的金融概念都解释不清。

Steve Eisman comes on, and we can't even explain ourselves in the complicated financial ways.

我们看起来就像外行。

We seem like chumps.

比特币是钱吗？

Is Bitcoin a money?

这是个问题，艾登。

This is a problem, Aiden.

所以我设计了一个小测验来测试你的金融知识。

So I came up with a quiz to test you on your financial knowledge.

你要

You're gonna

告诉我哪些是区块。

tell me block.

这些是真实的还是假的。

If these are real or fake.

明白吗？

Okay?

好的。

Okay.

这些都是金融术语。

These are financial terms.

对。

Yes.

麦克白夫人策略。

The Lady Macbeth strategy.

这是真的还是

Is that real or

假的？

fake?

这是国际象棋的开局。

That's a chess opening.

这不是真的。

That's not real.

这肯定是真的。

That's real for sure.

这是真的。

That's real.

真的吗？

Really?

是真的。

It's real.

好的。

Okay.

人人都知道。

Everyone knows that.

那动量抵消呢？

What about the what about momentum canceling?

动量抵消？

Momentum cancel?

这是《大乱斗》里的。

That's from Melee.

假的。

Fake.

假的。

Fake.

是的。

Yeah.

它来自《马里奥大乱斗》。

It's from Melee.

好吧。

Alright.

那关于那个破碎的环形蝴蝶呢？

What about what about what about a broken ring butterfly?

那一定是，太奇怪了。

That's gotta be it's too weird

不可能是编出来的。

to be made up.

这并不能让我觉得它是真的。

That's Doesn't make me like it's real.

动量。

Momentum.

感觉像是真的。

Feels like it's real.

有道理。

Fair point.

这是个合理的观点。

That's a fair point.

好吧。

Okay.

它是真的。

It is real.

所以你们这些人正拿到一些这样的随机物品，

So you guys are getting some of these right Random,

这代表什么？

what does it mean?

我们别太纠结于细节。

Let's not focus too much on the details.

你知道谁能够很好地解释这个吗？

You know who could explain it really well?

大概是

Probably like

Tastytrade，因为他们有一个真正的术语库，能拆解这些术语，帮助你理解，从而有依据地交易。

Tastytrade because they have an actual jargon library that breaks down these terms, help you understand so you can trade with understanding.

哇。

Wow.

你是不是

Are you

意思是今天我可以访问 tastytrade.com/lemonade，而且 Tastytrade Inc 是一家注册的经纪交易商？

saying I could go to tastytrade.com/lemonade today and that tastytrade inc is a registered broker dealer?

这正是我想说的。

That's exactly what I'm saying.

你终于明白了。

You finally got it.

好的。

Okay.

我正在

I'm

接手它

taking it

而且它是FINRA、NFA和SIPC的成员。

on the And it's a member of FINRA, NFA, and SIPC.

等等。

Well, hold on.

等等。

Hold on.

是吗？

Is it?

对的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

我来点击它。

I'll hit it.

行吧，兄弟。

Alright, man.

谢谢tastytrade对本期节目的支持。

Thank you, tastytrade, for supporting the show.

大家好。

Hi.

我是布琳·布朗。

I'm Brene Brown.

我是亚当·格兰特。

And I'm Adam Grant.

我们在这里邀请你来探索好奇心商店。

And we're here to invite you to the curiosity shop.

这是一档鼓励倾听、好奇、思考、感受与质疑的播客。

A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.

这会很有趣。

It's gonna be fun.

我们很少意见一致。

We rarely agree.

但我们几乎从不真正对立，而且总在学习。

But we almost never disagree, and we're always learning.

确实如此。

That's true.

你可以在YouTube上订阅《好奇心商店》，或在你喜欢的播客应用中关注我们，每周四自动接收新 episodes。

You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

1984年，苹果推出了可能是有史以来最具影响力的电脑。

In 1984, Apple launched maybe the most consequential computer ever.

但它并不是一台很好的电脑，尤其是。

It was not a good computer, particularly.

实际上，它存在不少问题。

There was actually a lot wrong with it.

但Macintosh具备了关于电脑未来发展的所有正确理念，并且彻底改变了这一切。

But the Macintosh had all of the right ideas about what computers would become, and it kind of changed everything.

本周的《版本历史》——我们这档探讨科技史上最好、最糟和最有趣产品的聊天节目——将讲述Macintosh的故事，以及为什么尽管它并不出色，却依然改变了整个世界。

This week on Version History, our chat show about the best and worst and most interesting products in tech history, we're telling the story of the Macintosh And why, again, despite not being very good, it managed to change everything anyway.

这是在YouTube和各大平台上的《版本历史》。

That's version history on YouTube and wherever

你可以在任何播客平台收听。

you get podcasts.

嗯，你去听听那些人的讨论，我的意思是，那场对话真是令人着迷。

Well, you go to these guys I mean, that guy's discussion was one of the most fascinating.

他跟我们聊了几个小时。

He gave us hours of discussion.

他有很多话要说。

He had a lot to say.

事实上，你可能不想听到这个。

And in fact, you don't like to hear this.

他是我们采访过的所有人中，对习近平评价最积极的。

He was the most positive on Xi Jinping of the anyway we interviewed.

他说习近平是个天才。

He said Xi Jinping is a genius.

他是，没错。

He yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们只是随便问问。

We we we just asked.

我们

We're

比如，你觉得他是谁？

like, who do you think is that?

你处理得很得体。

You did it tactfully.

其他像我们这样，我们问过不少人，比如，你对习近平怎么看？

Other like, we've we've been asking a number of people like, so what do you think about Xi Jinping?

然后，你知道，人们真的会告诉我们。

And then, you know, people literally tell us.

而且，有很多人说，不是。

And, like, a bunch have said, no.

他没那么好。

He's not that good.

是中国人民让这一切取得成功。

It's the Chinese people are what makes this successful.

然后你表达得更委婉了。

And then you framed it more tactfully.

我只是列出了他一生中经历过的所有领导人。

And I just listed all the leaders he's been alive for.

是的。

Yeah.

你问了，你最喜欢哪一位？

And you said, which do you

你觉得哪位是你最喜欢的？

think was your favorite?

他说，没有疑问。

And he he was like, no, no question.

他是最好的。

He's the best.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他毫无疑问。

He was No question.

这太棒了。

It was awesome.

恭喜。

So congrats.

恭喜。

Congrats.

他为你赢得了一场大胜。

He has a big win for you.

是的。

Yeah.

他确实这么做了，接着又跟进，我当时就问：你有没有担心过没有任期限制的问题？

He did he then followed up, and I was like, are you concerned at all about the lack of term limits?

就像说耶稣会永远在那里一样。

Like, that Jesus is gonna be there forever.

他却说，不是的。

And he's like, nope.

我们仍然有任期限制。

We still have term limits.

他是说，是有上限的。

He it's there's a limit.

他不可能永远当主席。

He can't be chairman forever.

我当时想，我以为他们废除了这个规定。

And I was like, I thought they abolished that.

我以为他废除了任期限制。

I thought he abolished the term limits.

他却说，不是的。

And he's like, nope.

那都是宣传话术。

That's propaganda.

明白了吧？

See?

这就是为什么你不能什么都信，总有人会给你灌输关于中国的不实信息。

This is why you can't trust everything and people tell you false things about China.

然后我们当时面面相觑。

And we all looked at each other.

说白了那根本不对。

Was basically And That is not true.

他确实那么做了。

He did do that.

你都把锦标赛取消了。

You abolished tournaments.

说实话吧，兄弟。

Be honest, bro.

说实话，兄弟。

Be honest, bro.

你废除了它们。

You abolished them.

但我其实是在查这件事，因为我心想，也许我漏掉了什么。

But I I I was looking this up because I was like, maybe there's just something I missed here.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他说的是，他把任期限制从两届提高到了四届，并不是说完全取消了。

Because what he was saying is he raised the cap of from, of term limits from two to four, and it's not like they're gone entirely.

我当时想，也许我对这个决定是什么时候做出的理解有误。

And I was like, oh, maybe I just misunderstood when this decision was made.

我找不到任何证据表明情况是这样的。

I can't find anything that says that's the case.

所以呢，你知道的，我觉得我也不必非得在这事上是对的。

So I'm I'm you know, I was like, I don't need to be right about this.

我从未在任何地方看到过你所说的那些内容。

I've just never seen what you're telling me anywhere.

我也没能找到任何证据来证实他的说法，但这是

I I couldn't find any verification for his claim that there was But it's it's

其实就是一回事。

like it's the same thing.

你知道的。

It's you know?

我想再重申一下我们在上一期节目中所感受到并表达的主题：几乎所有人，我认为除了二十多岁或更年轻的人之外，所有年龄更大的人都表示中国发展得非常好，变得好太多了。

And I just to to reiterate the theme that we felt and expressed in the previous episode that almost everyone, I think, except younger people, like mid twenties or younger, everybody older than that has expressed China has developed so much, has become so much better.

现在这里是一个绝佳的居住地。

It's an amazing place to live now.

生活极其便利。

It's incredibly convenient.

他也表达了完全相同的观点。

And he expressed the exact same thing.