打造卓越产品的四步框架 | Nesrine Changuel（Spotify、Google、Skype）

那个真实的人会如何比我们正在建造的机器人做得更好呢？

And how would that real person would be better than the robot that we are building?

实际上，如果你雇人来打扫房子，你可能会告诉那个人从某个房间开始或以某种方式清洁，而当时的机器人还做不到这些。

Actually, if you hire a certain person to clean your house, you probably tell that person to start with a certain room or to clean in a certain way, which the robot was not ready at that time.

因此他们在机器人中加入了建议功能，使其更接近真人般的清洁体验。

So they added recommendation into their robot to get closer to what a real human like space could happen.

这就是人性化的概念。

So that's the concept of humanization.

这关乎确保你的产品——实际上是提醒用户产品背后有真实的人存在，而我们也想实现这一点。

It's all about making sure that your product or it's actually about reminding users that there are real human behind the product, and we wanna achieve that.

如果你想看一个真正讨喜的类人吸尘器，那就是Matic。

If you wanna see a really delightful human like vacuum cleaner, the the Matic.

不知道你见过Matic没有。

I don't know if you've seen the Matic.

我刚买了一台。

I just got one.

而且，那纯粹是一种享受。

And, that is a pure delight.

他们做得太棒了。

They nailed it.

他们不需要读你的书，就已经做得很完美了。

They didn't need to read your book, they nailed it.

回到这个B2B的部分，我认为确保我们帮助人们理解这一点很重要。

Coming back to this B2B piece, I think it's an important piece to just make sure we help people see.

你觉得我说的对吗？如果这是一个新兴市场，竞争不激烈，而你正在解决一个重大痛点，他们会觉得这是个火烧眉毛的问题。

Do you feel like what I said is true, that if it's like a new market without a ton of competition and you're solving a big pain point, they're like, this is a hair on fire problem.

我只需要一个能用的CRM系统，或者一个客服工具，而不是像ServiceNow那样的复杂系统。

I just need I need a CRM that works, or I need a customer service thing versus you ServiceNow.

在这种情况下，准确满足需求、超越预期或预见需求就没那么必要了。

There's less need to get this right, to exceed expectations, to anticipate needs.

如果你只是解决了他们现有的问题，而且没有其他选择，那可能就足够了。

If you're just like solving the problem they have and there's nothing else, that's probably gonna be okay.

说实话，也许这个产品能行。

Honestly, maybe the product will work.

当然它必须得能用。

And of course it has to work.

但问题在于，如果你不把这部分整合到解决方案的构建方式中，你可能只是在做一个产品，而不是能脱颖而出的他们的产品。

But the problem is that if you do not integrate that part into the way how you're building the solution, you're probably just building a product, but not their product that will stand out.

我是说，如果有另一个竞争对手在解决情感需求，那么另一个产品就会胜出。

I mean, if there is another competitor who's addressing the emotional needs, then the other product will win.

我是说，现在的市场就是这样。

I mean, that's how the market is today.

所以你当然会做出一个能用的产品，但你是只想让它能用，还是想让它脱颖而出？

So of course you will make a product that works, but do you want it to just work or do you want it to stand out?

顺便说一句，既然我们谈到这个B2B和B2C领域，就在几天前，我在一篇LinkedIn帖子里提到了这个我特别喜欢的观点。

And by the way, since we're talking about this B2B and B2C space, just a couple of days ago, I was pinging it in a post, LinkedIn post that I really loved.

所以我在这里分享一下。

So I'm sharing it here.

实际上，这是来自Buffer的一位产品负责人。

Actually, it was from a product leader from Buffer.

而且他说了一些非常有趣的事情。

And actually, he said something really interesting.

他实际上说我们意识到大约2%的非Buffer用户明显处于不活跃状态。

He actually said that we realized that about 2% of our users who are not using Buffer, they are clearly inactive.

他们已经好几个月没有使用我们的产品了。

They are not using our product for many months.

所以我们决定给他们发邮件说：嘿，我们注意到你没有使用我们的产品。

So we decided to send them an email and say, hey, we noticed that you're not using our product.

我们要给你退款吗？

Are we gonna refund you?

这意味着我们将损失收入。

Meaning that we're gonna lose money.

是的。

Yes.

但这关乎信任与诚信。

But it's about trust and integrity.

所以这是一个B2B领域。

So this is a B2B space.

这是关于建立信任。

This is about creating trust.

这是关于建立这种联系。

This is about creating this connection.

人们的反应很有趣，因为你可能会提醒人们解约或终止与某个产品的合同。

And the reaction is really funny, because you might remind people to resign or close your contract with a certain product.

但这反而建立了更深层的联系，甚至可能让你根本不想取消。

But that even creates a deeper connection that might even drive you to not cancel at all.

比如，好吧，你邀请我取消服务，但非常感谢你的坦诚，所以我决定继续使用。

Like, okay, you're inviting me to cancel, but thanks so much for your honesty, so I'm gonna remain.

我的意思是，这种事情会随着时间的推移建立起信任关系。

I mean, this kind of thing build trust connection over time.

正如你所说，这可能不会对指标产生重大影响，但随着时间的推移，当你为产品塑造个性或建立品牌时，它肯定会逐渐产生影响。

So it might not, as you said, like create like a big impact on metrics, but over time, as you're building personality or building a brand for your product, it will definitely have impact over time.

Slack就是一个很好的例子。

Slack, I think is a good example of that.

我记得第一次使用Slack时，那些令人愉悦的小动画和有趣的语录，他们最终成为了一个价值300亿美元的公司。

I remember using Slack for the first time, the little delightful animations and these little funny quotes, and they ended up being a $30,000,000,000 company.

我感觉我听到的是，竞争越激烈，你就越需要脱颖而出，这一点就越需要做好。

It feels like what I'm hearing is just like the more competition there is, the more you need to stand out, the more this is something you need to get right.

因为如果你解决的问题别人都没解决。

Because if there's a problem you're solving, no one else is.

体验不一定要非常出色。

You don't the experience doesn't have to be incredible.

比如Revolut，另一个例子。

Like Revolut, another example.

银行产品很多，但他们凭借出色的体验和大量令人愉悦的设计脱颖而出。

There's a lot of banking products, but the way they stood out, incredible experience, lot of delight.

好的。

Okay.

让我们来谈谈具体如何实现这一点。

Let's get to how to actually do this.

到目前为止，我们一直在讨论为什么值得考虑和做这件事。

We've been so far, we're just like, here's why it's worth thinking about and doing.

现在，我们来谈谈如何实际着手处理这个问题。

Now, let's talk about how to actually approach this.

你有一个非常简单明确的方法来处理这件事，这样就不会把时间浪费在错误的事情上，也不仅仅是投资于华而不实的东西。

You have a really simple and clear way of approaching this, so you're not spending time in the wrong stuff, and not just investing in confetti.

这被称为愉悦模型。

It's called the delight model.

详细说说这个。

Talk about that.

是的，我们还没提到的是，在我的产品职业生涯中，我一直是个普通的产品经理，但在谷歌期间，我担任的是愉悦产品经理的角色。

Yes, so the things that we did not really spoke about is the fact that over my product career, I've been like a regular PM, but during my time at Google, I've been the delight PM.

所以甚至有一个专门的产品团队负责确保产品能带来愉悦体验。

So there is even an entire product team who actually work on making sure that the product is delightful.

我是说，我们在Chrome浏览器上就有这样的团队。

I mean, we do have such a thing for Chrome.

Google Meet也有这样的团队。

We have that for Google Meet.

我是说，这是真实存在的。

I mean, that's a real thing.

当然我理解不是每家公司都能奢侈地配备一位愉悦体验产品经理。

And of course, I understand that not every company could allow themselves having the luxury of having a Delight PM.

所以这就是为什么我提出了这个可操作性的概念。

So that's why I came with this concept of how can I make this actionable?

于是我创建了愉悦体验模型。

And I created the Delight model.

这个模型非常简单。

It's very simple.

顺便说一下，我想在此强调的是，你无需改变公司现有的任何工作方式或正在采取的战略步骤。

And by the way, what I want to really highlight here is that you do not have to change any ways of working or any, any strategic steps that you're already taking in your company.

那么，什么是愉悦模型？

So what is the Delight, model?

它分为四个步骤实现。

It happens in four steps.

我们将逐一讲解这些步骤。

So we're gonna walk then one by one.

第一步是识别用户的动机因素。

And the very first step is about identifying users' motivators.

我的意思是，实际上用户使用产品的原因可能截然不同。

What I mean is that actually users are using products for complete different reasons.

这是你首先需要意识到的事情。

And that's the very first thing that you need to get aware of.

我们确实会进行用户细分。

I mean, we do segmentation.

这通常是大多数产品人员会做的事情。

That's usually something that most of product people do.

但我们通常基于人口统计或行为进行细分，即他们是谁或他们实际如何使用产品。

But we usually segment based on demographic or behavioral, meaning that who they are or what do they really do with the product.

而我认为第三种非常有效的细分方式是动机细分，即你需要根据用户为何使用产品来划分用户群。

And the third type of segmentation that I believe is very powerful is the motivational segmentations, means that you need to segment your users based on why do they use the product.

举个例子，当我在Spotify工作时，我们知道有些人使用Spotify是为了搜索特定曲目。

Like for example, like when I worked at Spotify, we know that there are people who use Spotify to search for a specific track.

也有人使用Spotify是因为他们想获得灵感。

Or there are people who use Spotify because they want to get inspired.

还有些人听Spotify是因为他们想减少孤独感，或想感觉更高效，或想建立联系。

And others will listen to Spotify because they want to feel less lonely, or they want to feel productive, or they want to feel connected.

这些都是动机因素。

I mean, these are motivators.

该模型的第一步就是要确保我们有一份清单，列出我们所说的功能性动机和情感性动机。

And the very first step of the model is to make sure that we have a list of what we call like, functional motivators and the emotional motivators.

我确信大多数听众都熟悉功能性动机，但情感性动机是这个过程中极其重要的一部分，因为我们稍后会用到它。

I'm pretty sure most of the listeners are familiar with the functional motivators, but the emotional motivators is an extremely important part of the process, because we're gonna use it later.

这是第一步。

That's the first step.

那么明确一下，功能性动机就像是：我需要找一首歌，我需要获得灵感，我需要为孩子找点东西听。

So just to be clear, so functional motivators are like, I need to find a song, I need to get inspired, I need to find something for my kid to listen to.

情感性动机的例子有哪些？

What are some examples of emotional motivators?

以Spotify为例，情感性动机可能是：我想减少孤独感，或者我想改变心情。

So emotional motivator for the Spotify example could be, I wanna feel less lonely, or I want to change my mood.

有时候你会打开Spotify却没有特定的收听目标，但需求是改变心情或者唤起怀旧之情之类的。

That's something that sometime you go to Spotify without specific thing in your head to listen to, but the need is to change your mood or to feel nostalgic or something like that.

这些都是例子。

Mean, these could be example.

例如在Uber的案例中，我知道他们投入了大量工作让用户感到安全，并为此开发了许多安全功能。

For example, in the case of Uber, I know that they have been working heavily on allowing users to feel secure and they build a lot of feature for security reasons.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

这就像是待完成工作的细微差别版本。

It's like a nuanced version of jobs to be done.

既有功能性的待完成工作，也有你希望获得的情感体验。

There's the functional jobs to be done, and then there's the how you wanna feel.

是的。

Yeah.

非常有趣。

Super interesting.

好的，很棒。

Okay, great.

即使我们讨论情感动机，

And even when we talk about emotional motivators, we have the personal emotional motivators and the social emotional motivators.

而个人情感动机则是用户在使用产品时想获得产品时希望获得的情感体验。

The personal emotional motivators is how users want to feel while using the product.

这完全就是ACE（王牌）

That's exactly ACE.

社交情感动机则是用户希望他人在自己使用产品时如何看待自己

The social emotional motivators is how users want others to feel about them while using the product.

比如想想Wrapped年度总结这个例子

I mean, think about wrapped, for example.

很多人分享他们的年度总结，是想展示自己有多酷，为了被他人认为很酷并感到有归属感

A lot of people share their wrapped because they want to share how cool they are and in order to be perceived cool and to feel connected.

这些都是情感连接的不同维度

I mean, are different areas of emotional connection.

所以第一步是同时识别情感动机和功能动机

So this is the first step, identifying emotional motivators also as well as functional motivators.

第二步则是将这些动机转化为机会

Now, the second step is to convert those motivators.

当你有了这份清单后，如何将其转化为产品或商业机会？

I mean, as soon as you have this list, how can I convert this into an opportunity or product opportunity?

所以你有了基础

So you have the basis.

我是说，最难的工作是识别这些动机因素，然后你才能识别与之相关的产品机会

I mean, the hardest job is to identify these motivators, and then you can identify product opportunities related to that.

顺便说一句，我们看到转变在于我们不再过多讨论产品空间，而是更关注机会空间

And by the way, we see the shift that we are not too much talking about product space, but rather opportunity space.

因为解决方案不仅关乎解决问题，还关乎满足需求并确保我们正针对这些需求提供解决方案

Because solutions are not only about solving problems, but also about honoring needs and making sure that we are solving for those needs.

所以我们可以使用'我们该如何'之类的工具或其他方法

So we can use things like how might we or whatever.

顺便说一句，我对这里使用的具体框架并不特别教条或严格

By the way, I'm not very religious or strict about whatever framework could be used here.

关键在于从这些动机出发，定义它们并将其作为待解决的机会纳入战略

It's all about starting from these motivators and define them and put them in the strategy as opportunities to be solved.

所以这是第二步

So this is second step.

第三步，我们会接触到更具体的内容，即尝试找出能解决这些动机的解决方案。

The third step, where we get to a more concrete things here, is to try to identify solutions, but that solve for those motivators.

请记住，我们实际上已经识别了功能性动机和情感性动机，并且我定义了我称之为‘愉悦度等级’的概念。

So remember, we actually identified functional motivators and emotional motivators, and I defined what I call the delight grade.

愉悦度等级是一个矩阵，我们将功能性动机和情感性动机放置其中，然后从所有已识别的解决方案中进行选择，并根据该解决方案针对哪种动机将其放置在网格中。

So the delight grade is a matrix where we place functional motivators and emotional motivators, and then you will select among all of the identified solutions, and you place them in the grid based on what motivators is this solution solving for.

我的意思是，它是针对某个特定的功能性动机提供解决方案吗？

I mean, is it solving for one particular functional motivator?

它是针对某个特定的情感性动机提供解决方案吗？

Is it solving for one particular emotional motivator?

还是两者兼顾？

Or both?

我们为什么要这样做？

Why are we doing this?

因为我们正在将功能分为三种类型。

Because we are categorizing features into three types.

当某个功能仅满足情感动机时，我们称之为表层愉悦。

There's the surface delight when a feature is only solving for an emotional motivator.

想想Wrapped功能就知道了。

I mean, think about wrapped.

我们这里多次提到Wrapped，但它本身没有任何功能性。

We used wrapped a couple of times here, but wrapped has nothing functional into it.

它完全是为了让人们感到酷炫并分享给朋友。

It's all about allowing people to feel cool and share that with their friends.

这就是表层愉悦。

That's surface delight.

对，另一个表层愉悦的例子。

Yeah, another example of surface delight.

前几天我用Apple Watch时正好是我生日。

The other day, I was using my Apple Watch and it was my birthday.

所以生日那天，我的表盘上出现了这个气球动画。

So on my birthday, I had this balloon.

不知道你有没有体验过这个功能

I don't know if you experienced it.

就像屏幕上会显示生日快乐

Like it's saying happy birthday in the screen.

为什么不呢？

Why not?

这完全是为了在情感层面建立这种情感连接

This is all about creating this emotional connection on the emotional level only.

第二种愉悦感我称之为浅层愉悦

The second type of delight is what I call low delight.

即功能仅满足其中一项功能性动机时

It's when the feature is only solving for one of those functional motivators.

当然，第三种对我来说最强大的是深层愉悦

And of course, the third type, is the most powerful for me, is the deep delight.

实际上，当某个功能同时满足功能性需求和情感需求时，就会产生这种愉悦

Actually, this happens when you have a feature where you are at the same time solving for a functional need and also solving for an emotional need.

以Spotify为例，'每周发现'或'Spotify Jam'功能就是深度愉悦的典范——我们不仅能从中学习或获取新音乐灵感，而且是以个性化方式实现的，这让我们感受到应用真正倾听了、看见并理解了我们。

For example, in the case of Spotify, Discover Weekly or Spotify Jam could be a good example of deep delight, where we actually can of course learn or get inspired with a new music, but in a personalized way, so it allows us to feel heard and seen and understood by the app.

这就是第三步：识别解决方案并确保它们能带来愉悦感，同时在此进行分类。

And that's the third step, which is about identifying solutions and make sure that they are delightful and categorize them here.

第四步是该模型的最后一步：验证环节。

The fourth step, which is the last step of the model, is validating.

因为我们要如何确保自己不是在创造肤浅的愉悦，或者用错误的方式实现它呢？

Because how can we make sure that we are not just creating only surface delight or we are just doing it in the wrong way?

为此我创建了一个'愉悦度检查清单'。

So I created something that I call the delight checklist.

这实际上是一份人人都能使用的清单，用于确保我们开发的功能既能产生用户影响，也能带来商业价值——因为愉悦感不应成为在产品中添加华而不实功能的借口。

It's actually just a checklist that anyone can go through to make sure that the feature that we're building is making user impact, is making business impact, because delight is not an excuse to just add an aesthetic and fun part in the product.

它必须与商业目标保持高度一致。

It really has to be aligned with the business.

此外还需考虑其他几个因素，比如可行性和熟悉度。

But also, are other couple of things, like feasibility, familiarity.

对我来说，包容性是非常重要的一部分。

And very important part for me is inclusion.

在这里，包容性确实需要被充分考虑。

Inclusion really has to be taken into consideration here.

因为当我们谈论情感时，让我快乐的事物未必能让你快乐，对吧？

Because when we talk about emotion, what makes me happy is not necessarily what make you happy, right?

我的意思是，甚至我自己，今天让我开心的东西明天可能就不一定能让我开心了。

I mean, even myself, I might be happy with something that is not necessarily what's gonna make me happy tomorrow.

所以当我们讨论愉悦感时，包容性非常重要，因为我们见过太多做错的例子。

So inclusion is really important when we talk about the light because we've seen a lot of example where it's done wrong.

我也可以在这里分享一些例子。

And I can share some example here as well.

我想到的例子实际上是去年在巴黎或整个法国发生的一件事。

So the example that comes to my mind is actually something that happened last year here in Paris or in France in general.

那是Delivior这家配送公司。

It was Delivior, this company that deliver.

实际上，那天是母亲节。

And actually, it was Mother's Day.

在母亲节那天，他们想出了一个主意，给Deliveroo用户发送通知。

And on Mother's Day, they came up with the idea of sending notification to Deliveroo users.

这个通知看起来就像是你妈妈的一个未接来电。

And the notification look exactly as a missed call from your mom.

我的意思是，如果你从屏幕上看，它显示的是'妈妈的未接来电'。

I mean, if you look at it from the screen, it says like missed call from your mom.

你点击它，就会看到'嘿，今天是母亲节'。

You click on it, you get like, hey, it's Mother's Day.

哦。

Oh.

想想你的妈妈。

Think about your mother.

这很聪明。

That's clever.

这很巧妙。

That's clever.

本意是想让人感到愉悦。

It was supposed to be delightful.

问题是这个功能在法国遭到了前所未有的负面报道。

The problem is that this feature had the worst press ever in France.

人们真的开始抱怨这件事，虽然初衷是好的。

Like, people really started to complain about it because, yes, the intention was positive.

对某些人来说确实很欢乐，但不是每个人都有享受这种通知的幸运。

Yes, it was joyful for some people, but not everyone has the luxury of enjoying such notification.

对一些人意味着快乐。

For some, it means joy.

对另一些人则意味着悲伤或痛苦之类的。

For others, it means grief or sorrow or whatever.

所以它不够包容。

So it was not inclusive enough.

这就是为什么我要强调愉悦功能中的包容性部分，因为它可能在未来某个时候被实施。

So that's why I'm highlighting the inclusion part for delight, because it might be undertaken sometime.

好的，太棒了。

Okay, incredible.

这确实是个很好的例子，说明为什么你需要在最后检查清单中确保这不会意外地让人感到不快。

And that was a really good example of why you have this checklist at the end of making sure this is actually not gonna upset people, well, accidentally.

本节目由LucidLink赞助播出，这是一个存储协作平台。

This episode is brought to you by LucidLink, the storage collaboration platform.

你已经打造了一个很棒的产品，但如何通过视频、设计和故事来展示它，才是赋予其生命的关键。

You've built a great product, but how you show it through video, design, and storytelling is what brings it to life.

如果你的团队需要处理大型媒体文件、视频、设计素材、分层项目文件，你就会知道跨地域保持文件组织有多痛苦。

If your team works with large media files, videos, design assets, layered project files, you know how painful it can be to stay organized across locations.

文件分散在不同的地方。

Files live in different places.

你总在问：这是最新版本吗？

You're constantly asking, is this the latest version?

创意工作因等待文件传输而变得缓慢。

CreativeWork slows down while people wait for files to transfer.

LucidLink解决了这个问题。

LucidLink fixes this.

它为您的团队提供了一个云端共享空间，操作如同本地驱动器。

It gives your team a shared space in the cloud that works like a local drive.

文件可以从任何地方即时访问。

Files are instantly accessible from anywhere.

无需下载，无需同步，始终保持最新状态。

No downloading, no syncing, and always up to date.

这意味着制作人、编辑、设计师和营销人员可以在原生应用中打开大型文件，直接从云端工作，无论身处何地都能保持同步。

That means producers, editors, designers, and marketers can open massive files in their native apps, work directly from the cloud, and stay aligned wherever they are.

Adobe、Shopify及顶级创意机构的团队都使用LucidLink来保持内容引擎快速流畅地运行。

Teams at Adobe, Shopify, and top creative agencies use Lucid Link to keep their content engine running fast and smooth.

免费试用请访问lucidlink.com/lenny。

Try it for free at lucidlink.com/lenny.

网址是lucidlink.com/lenny。

That's lucidlink.com/lenny.

让我先回顾一下这四个步骤，然后我想知道你是否还有其他遵循这种模式并产生良好效果的案例。

So let me just mirror back these four steps, and then I'm curious if there's another example of something you built that followed this model that had a really good impact.

不过让我先分享一下。

But let me, let me share.

本质上，这是为了帮助你在'愉悦体验'这个大框架下确定哪些值得投入——希望你现在已经相信这值得你花时间，特别是当你试图在一众竞争者中脱颖而出时。

So basically, what this is, is to help you figure out what is worth investing in under this umbrella of delight, which hopefully now you're convinced is worth your time, especially if you're trying to stand out amongst a bunch of competitors.

第一步是识别用户动机。

So step one is identify user motivators.

比如人们的需求是什么，要完成哪些任务——既包括非常具体实际的、功能性的需求（你可以称之为功能性需求），也包括情感需求。

Like what are people, what are the jobs to be done, Both very tang practically, functionally, you call them functional needs, and then also emotional needs.

人们是想要感到快乐、悲伤？

Are people trying to feel happy, sad?

实际上在这个范畴里... 我先稍微岔开一下话题。

What are within that bucket, actually, I'm gonna take a quick tangent.

当你思考情感需求时，它们的分类体系是怎样的？

When you think about emotional needs, what's like the taxonomy of them?

我知道有很多情绪，愤怒、悲伤等等，根据你的经验，在思考'有哪些可能的选择'时，最常见的情感需求是什么？

I know there's a lot of emotions, anger, sat, like, what are the most common emotional needs in your experience to think about when you're like, okay, here's when, here's how to think about what the options might be.

这取决于领域，但对某些产品来说可能是安全感，对另一些则可能是'我想成为更好的自己'这种感觉。

It depends on the area, but for some product, it could be security, for other, it might be like, I wanna feel a better version of myself.

比如当我和Miro的一些领导者交流时，他们可能会把这视为一种情感需求。

Like for example, when I spoke with some leaders from Miro, they might consider this as an emotional need.

比如他们使用产品，当然是为了实现其功能，同时也是为了展示自己是一个更好的协调者、更优秀的领导者，或者只是感觉成为了更好的自己。

Like they are using the product, of course, for the functionality that is allowing them to achieve, but also to showcase that they are better facilitator, or they are a better leader, or just feel a better version of themselves.

这可能是一种潜在的情感动机。

This could be a potential emotional motivator.

因此，它会根据产品或行业的类型而有所不同。

So it can range depending on the type of the product or the industry.

但实际上，情感可以借鉴例如情感轮作为基础来选择，但并非所有情感都适用于所有类型的进步。

But actually emotions could be like, can use, for example, the wheel of emotion as a basis where we can select from it, but not all emotion could apply to all type of progress.

必须具体明确。

It has to be specific.

酷。

Cool.

这是个关于安全感需求的绝佳例子。

That's a really good example of feeling security.

感觉这是越来越多人想要的东西。

It feels like that's something that more and more people want.

所有这些AI伴侣，它们将会涉及各种情感需求。

All these AI companions, like, they're gonna have all kinds of emotional needs.

因此要识别用户动机，包括功能性和情感性的。

So identify user motivators, functional and emotional.

将这些动机转化为令人愉悦的产品机会。

Turn those motivators into delightful product opportunities.

找出你在哪些方面可以实现这种愉悦感。

Figure out where you have opportunities to achieve that sort of delight.

识别潜在解决方案，比如实际构思解决方案，然后通过你书中的这份清单来验证这些想法。

Identify potential solutions, like actually ideate on solutions, and then validate the ideas through this checklist, which you have in your book.

有什么你想分享的检查项吗？就像这里有一份你需要考虑的清单？

Are there a few you want to share there, just like here's checklist of stuff you want to think through?

是的，我们在‘愉悦清单’中讨论过包容性作为一个非常重要的方面。

Yeah, so we spoke about inclusion as a really important one in the Delight checklist.

另一个领域可能是熟悉度，因为我们当然热爱创新，但也要确保不会让人感到太意外。

Another area could be familiarity as well, because of course we love innovation, but we wanna make sure that we are not surprising too much.

我是说，我们以为自己喜欢惊喜，但实际上并不想被过度惊吓。

I mean, we think that we love surprise, but we don't wanna be very much surprised.

我这里有个可能有趣的故事要分享，正是这件事促成了‘每周发现’的成功。

And I have a maybe interesting story to share here, which is something that actually created the success of Discover Weekly.

我不确定你是否知道这个，但我还是想分享一下。

So I'm not sure if you know about that, but I'm gonna go ahead and share it.

好的，说来听听。

Yeah, let's do it.

我经常使用'每周发现'功能。

I use Discover Weekly all the time.

当'每周发现'最初被构思时

So when Discover Weekly was first thought of or like

顺便说一下，这是Spotify的功能。

And this is Spotify, by the way.

是的。

Yes.

'每周发现'的创作理念是它应该成为完全的探索体验，意味着对用户来说完全是全新的内容。

So Discover Weekly, how it was created was the fact that it was supposed to be a complete discovery, meaning that it was supposed to be complete new for the users.

这就是它背后的理念。

So that's the idea behind it.

用户不应该在其中找到或听到之前听过或喜欢的曲目。

It was like, the user is not supposed to to find or listen tracks that has been listened to or liked before.

功能上线后，我们很快就在数据指标上看到了巨大的成功。

So it was shipped, and when it was shipped, like, of course, we started to see big success in the metrics.

但你猜怎么着？

But you know what?

两周后，工程师们发现这个功能存在一个漏洞。

Two weeks later, people, like the engineers, realized that there's been a bug in the feature.

实际上，这个漏洞是算法有时会混入一些用户已经喜欢的歌曲。

Actually, the bug was that sometimes the algorithm was injecting some of the Like It song.

所以这个播放列表对用户来说并非完全新鲜。

So the playlist was not completely new to the users.

可以说它保留了一些熟悉的元素。

It had some familiar feature, I would say.

当然，工程师们修复了这个漏洞。

So of course, the engineers fixed the bug.

你猜后来发生了什么？

And you know what happened?

指标下降了。

Metrics tags.

所有指标

All the metrics.

没错

Exactly.

所有指标，该功能的所有成功指标都在下降。

Like all the metrics, all the success metrics of the feature was going down.

于是他们很快意识到，用户真正喜欢的并不是发现维基完全新颖这一点，而是应用中随机注入的这种熟悉感反而让它变得更出色、更受用户青睐。

So they quickly realized that actually what users really liked in the Discover Wiki was not the fact that it was completely new, but this familiarity that has been injected randomly in the app just made it even more better and even more appreciated by the users.

所以他们修复了这个漏洞。

So they fixed the bug.

现在你们正在使用的发现维基其实是个'有漏洞的版本'，可以这么说。

And now, the Discover Wiki that you're enjoying is a buggy version, if we can say.

所以这就是为什么我把'熟悉度'列为需要检查的要素——我们不想给用户推送完全陌生、可能造成冲击的新功能。

So, I mean, that's why I added familiarity as an element that needs to be checked, because we don't want to just inject complete new surprising feature to the user that might be shocking.

这真是个精彩的故事。

That's an amazing story.

那是你们团队负责的项目吗？

That was your team that worked on that?

是的，我和他们合作非常紧密，因为我负责转码部分，我们需要为他们转码这些音轨。

Yeah, I've been very close working with them because I've on been the transcoding part and we had to transcode these tracks for them.

这太有趣了。

That's so funny.

我们因为没犯这些意外错误，还错过了多少其他产品呢？

How many other products are we missing out on by not making these mistakes by accident?

这说得太有道理了。

That makes so much sense.

就像人们总想要一点那种'哦，对，我喜欢这首歌'的感觉。

Just like people want a little bit of like, oh, yeah, love that song.

哦，我们开始吧。

Oh, let's go.

然后才是'好的，这里有些新东西'。

And then okay, there's something new.

这太有趣了。

That is so funny.

好的。

Okay.

所以这四个步骤是这样的。

So so these are the four steps.

再强调一下，你在这里试图做的——我回到什么能让事物变得令人愉悦——就是消除摩擦，让预期中困难的事情变得非常简单，比如取消优步行程并获得退款；预见需求，我认为你举的在Revolut应用中的eSIM例子就是这种情况。

And again, what you're trying to do here, I'll just go back to what makes something delightful is you remove friction, make something that you expect to be hard, really easy, like canceling an Uber ride and getting a refund on Uber ride, anticipating needs, which I think was the eSIM example you gave in in the Revolut app.

顺便说一句，据我所知，Revolut的使用体验非常令人愉悦。

And Revolut, by the way, very delightful experience from what I hear.

我人在美国，自己从未使用过。

I've never used it myself, being in The US.

然后就是超越预期，给予用户——没错。

And then exceeding expectations, giving someone and and then yeah.

但给予他们从未期待的东西，哇。

But giving them something you never expected and, wow.

那个超出预期的具体例子是什么来着？为了让概念更清晰。

What what was the example there again, just to make that really concrete of anticipating of exceeding expectations?

关于超出预期，我们之前讨论过购物返现功能这个例子。

So for exceeding expectation, we spoke about, for example, the shopping, it's called like cashback feature.

哦对，优惠码那个。

Oh yeah, the coupon code.

有很多这类功能，是的。

Plenty of them, yeah.

是的，这太棒了。

Yeah, that's amazing.

这是微软的功能还是你丈夫安装的插件？

Is that something Microsoft does or that's like an extension that your husband installed?

不，这完全是产品自带的功能。

No, it's completely a part of the product.

什么？

What?

还有自动填充功能，就像你的自动填充甚至不需要，我是说，就像密码一样自动填充，我知道Chrome正在开发这个功能。

And even auto fill, like it's You auto don't even, mean, same like a password And auto I know Chrome is working on it.

所以如果你是Chrome用户，这个功能很快就会推出。

So it's coming if you're a Chrome user.

哇。

Wow.

真是件奇怪的事。

What a weird thing.

虽然很喜欢，但发生这种情况还挺有趣的。

Like, love it, but it's funny that that happens.

这些可怜的商家要损失所有这些收入了。

Like all these poor businesses are gonna lose out on all this revenue.

不过我们没必要深入讨论这个。

Anyway, we wouldn't have to get into that.

好的。

Okay.

有没有一个例子，比如你按照这个模式做过的更广泛的、真正成功且有影响力的项目？

Is there an example, like a broader example of something you worked on following this model that was really successful, really impactful?

我在谷歌工作时，特别是负责Google Meet项目时，我告诉她，我一直担任用户体验优化的产品经理。

When I worked at Google, particularly for Google Meet, I told her like, I've been the PM for delight.

所以我们当时有个使命，就是必须真正取悦我们的用户。

So we had that mission that we really needed to delight our users.

正是通过这个经历，我才真正认识到这是一门学问。

And that's how I actually learned that it's actually a discipline.

这不是个时髦词汇。

It's not the buzzword.

而是我们确实可以落实的东西。

It's something that we can really put in place.

我有两个案例可以和你分享。

So I do have two examples I can share with you.

一个是关于Google Meet的，另一个是关于Google Chrome的。

One is from Google Meet and one from Google Chrome.

你想听哪一个？

Which one do you want to listen to?

我们选Chrome吧，既然已经聊过Meet了，但我两个都想听。

Let's go with Chrome since we've chat about Meet, but I want hear them both.

就从Chrome开始吧。

Let's start with Chrome.

我超爱Chrome。

I love Chrome.

我们先从Chrome说起。

Let's start with Chrome.

我在负责Chrome项目时，需要处理最具挑战性的问题。

So when I worked for Chrome, I had to work on the most challenging issue.

你觉得是什么？

What do you think is?

Chrome最具挑战性的问题。

Most challenging issue of Chrome.

内存管理？

Memory management?

不是。

No.

还有更糟的。

There is even worse.

没关系。

It's Okay.

标签页管理。

Tab management.

人们

People

好的。

Okay.

不。

No.

这是最难的一个。

It's the it is the hardest one.

因为实际上，当我从事标签管理时，我意识到人们使用标签的方式完全不同。

Because actually, when I worked at tab management, I realized that people are working with tabs for complete different way.

就像人们把标签页开着当作提醒或待办事项，或者干脆就忘记了它们

It's like people are leaving tabs open as reminders or as to do, or just people Very they forget about

有罪 是的。

guilty Yes.

的

Of

而我不得不负责iOS部分，也就是移动端。

And I had to work on the iOS part, like the mobile part.

相信我，如果你看看数据，会发现很多人打开了大量标签。

And believe me, if you look at data, you see so many people having so many tabs open.

我是说，这个数字简直

I mean, the numbers is just

我看到的永远都是99+。

99 plus is all I ever see.

是啊，因为我们不显示三位数

Yeah, because we do not put three digit

总之。

anyway.

对，对，聪明。

Yeah, yeah, smart.

实际数字可能真的很高。

The real number could be really high.

哦，天哪。

Oh, man.

所以，我们必须解决这个问题。

And so, we had to address this problem.

我是说，从功能角度来看，这是个问题。

I mean, from a functional perspective, this a problem.

我是说，从内存、性能、空间的角度来看。

I mean, from a memory, from a performance, from a space.

我们不想让用户在不知不觉中打开500个标签页，甚至都没意识到自己开了500个标签页。

I mean, we don't want users to have like 500 open tabs without even realising, by the way, that they have 500 open tabs.

所以我们不得不解决这个问题。

So we had to work on that.

我们是怎么做的呢？

And how did we do that?

我们的做法是采访了大量用户，试图了解他们如何浏览打开的标签页，以及如何查找和打开标签页。

The way we did that is actually we interviewed a lot of users, trying to ask them, hey, what if you navigate through your open tabs and let me know how you can find and open tabs.

对我来说这是一个非常重要的阶段，因为通过它你才能意识到用户与他们的标签页之间存在某种关系。

That was for me a very important phase because that's how you realize that there is a relationship between people and their tabs.

我说'关系'是因为对某些人来说，他们的标签页真的非常重要。

And I really say relationship because for some people, their tabs are really, really important things.

我是说，对他们而言，浏览器绝不可能擅自关闭他们的标签页。

I mean, for them, there's absolutely no choice for Chrome to close tabs on their behalf.

这确实是一件非常重要的事情。

It's a really important thing.

所以我们首先必须理解这种关系。

So we had to understand that relationship first.

然后我们请一些人演示他们如何在众多标签页中找到特定标签。

And then we asked some people to navigate us through how they can find a specific tab in their tab grades.

很多人感到有些沮丧，或觉得有点困难，有些人甚至觉得需要为此道歉——当然不是为标签内容道歉，而是会说'抱歉，我平时不会开这么多标签页'之类的话。

And a lot of people got a bit frustrated, or they found that a bit hard, or some of them had They found that there is a need to apologize, not for the content, of course, of the tab they had, but said something like, Hey, I'm sorry, I usually don't have that many tabs open.

这不是重点。

That's not the point.

重点在于观察你是否会因此体验感到沮丧。

The point is to see if you get frustrated from the experience itself or not.

这个阶段本身——不仅要理解功能层面，还要理解情感层面，包括沮丧感，有时甚至是羞耻感——对于构建符合这些价值观和情感驱动的功能至关重要。

So that phase by itself, trying to understand not only the functional part, but also that emotional part, the frustration part, the ashamed part sometimes, was really key in order to build a feature that can align with these values and these motivators or these emotional parts.

所以我们最终开发的功能就是现在iOS上存在的'非活跃标签页'功能。

So what we built actually was a feature that exists today on iOS, which is called inactive tabs.

非活动标签页是一项功能，系统会自动将超过21天未被触碰或打开的标签页放入名为'非活动标签页'的文件夹中。

So inactive tabs is that ability where you can Actually, this happened automatically where all tabs longer than twenty one day that was not touched actually, or opened for more than twenty one day are placed in this folder called inactive tabs.

这样做的结果是你会获得更清爽的标签页网格界面，用户对标签页数量产生的压力感也会降低。

So the result is that you're getting like a cleaner tab grid, and people are feeling less stressed about the amount of tabs they have.

同时他们仍保持着对Chrome的信任，因为他们知道我们并没有关闭他们的标签页。

But also, they keep that trust of Chrome because they know that we did not close their tabs.

他们的标签页实际上都保存在那个非活动标签组里。

Their tabs are actually there in that inactive tab group.

这就是我们构建的功能之一。

So that was one of the features we built.

它本应只具备功能性。

It was supposed to be functional only.

我的意思是，我们原本可能只需压缩缩略图或采用性能优化方案，但这同时也是一个'深度愉悦'的范例——你在满足功能需求的同时，也兼顾了情感维度的设计。

I mean, we could just maybe compress the thumbnail or just do a performance way, but also that's an example of deep delight, where at the same time you're solving for a functional need and at the same time, including the emotional dimension into it.

这个例子真是太棒了。

That's a super cool example.

这其实是我转用Arc浏览器的原因。

That's actually the reason I switched I started using Arc.

不知道你有没有用过Arc，它是基于Chromium开发的。

I don't know if you've used Arc before, which is built on Chromium.

它是由一家叫The Browser Company的初创公司开发的。

It's its own startup, the browser company.

Josh Miller之前上过这个播客节目。

Josh Miller was on the podcast.

他们确实会在若干小时（比如几天）后自动删除你的标签页。

They delete they actually delete your tabs after some number of hour, like days.

但当你习惯之后，会发现这其实很棒。

And once you get used to that, it's actually great.

我就觉得，好吧。

I'm like, okay.

请自动消失吧。

Please go away.

如果你愿意的话，可以保存它们。

And then you can save them if you want.

你可以固定它们。

You can pin them.

我已经很久没用Chrome了，只记得标签页会失效，当你返回时它们需要重新加载。

I haven't used Chrome in probably long enough where I remember just the tabs deactivate, like they just have to reload when you go back to their old.

很酷的是现在它们会移到不同的文件夹里，这样就不会碍事，还能整理整个界面。

It's cool that now they move to a different folder to kind of get them out of the way and clean up your whole thing.

非常酷。

Very cool.

好的。

Okay.

Google Meet有什么故事？

What's the Google Meet story?

我告诉过你，我加入Google Meet时大约是新冠疫情袭击欧洲前一个月，那可能是加入Google Meet最糟糕的时期，因为使用量直线飙升。

So I told you when I joined Google Meet, it was maybe one month before COVID hit Europe, like the worst period you can join Google Meet because I mean, the usage just gets skyrocketed.

我们突然都从在会议室和诊所开会变成了100%远程办公。

Like we all found ourselves moving from having meetings in rooms and clinics to 100% remote.

所以最初的几个月，大约三到四个月，我必须理解这种新行为的影响或情感冲击。

So the very first couple of months, and it was about three to four months, I had to understand the impact or the emotional impact of this new behavior.

人们待在家里，会议一个接一个。

The fact that people are staying home and having these back to back.

这种新体验的情感影响是什么？

What's the emotional impact of this new experience?

当然，我们所做的就是采访很多人。

And of course, what we did was to interview a lot of people.

在用户研究员的帮助下，我们收集了大量信息。

And with the help of user researcher, we collected a lot of information.

当我们试图整合这些信息时，实际上发现了三种主要模式。

And when we tried to synthesize these informations, we actually realized that there are three main patterns.

比如人们会说，'我感觉很无聊'。

Like people are saying, I'm feeling bored.

人们说互动很少。

People are saying there is a low interaction.

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And there was even a new term that was born during COVID time, which is called the Zoom fatigue.

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You probably heard about that.

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It's funny that it was Zoom fatigue and not Google Meet fatigue.

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I was really happy it was called

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Zoom fatigue.

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I was scared point.

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It's always better to put it on the competitor when it's negative.

总之。

Anyway.

苦乐参半，苦乐参半。

Bittersweet, bittersweet.

所以我们必须工作，我是说，在这种情况下，如果你能看到，我们并没有真正识别出激励因素。

So we had to work, I mean, in that case, if you can see, we did not really identify motivators.

我们确实识别出了消极因素。

We did identify demotivators.

因为有时甚至更容易。

Because sometimes it's even easier.

实际上，有时比起告诉你什么让我快乐，告诉我什么让我沮丧或压力更大。

Actually, sometimes it's easier to let you know what frustrates me or stress me than tell you what makes me happy.

所以如果识别情感激励因素很复杂，你可以尝试识别那些情感消极因素。

So if identifying emotional motivators turns out to be complicated, so you can try to identify those emotional demotivators.

在这种情况下，我们必须针对这三个消极因素开展工作，并提出有助于利用或至少以某种方式减少这些消极因素的解决方案。

And in that case, we had to work on these three demotivators and come up with solutions that could help leverage that, or at least reduce in one way or another.

当我们研究Zoom疲劳时，实际上我们发现——顺便说一句，这得益于斯坦福大学发表的一项研究——Zoom疲劳的原因之一就是能看到自己的画面。

So when we worked on Zoom fatigue, we actually realized, and we get help from a study that was published from Stanford, by the way, that one of the causes for the Zoom fatigue was the fact of seeing your self view.

问题不在于看到别人。

It's not about seeing others.

关键在于你能看到自己。

It's the fact that you see yourself.

为什么呢？

Why?

想象一下你走在街上，有人举着镜子跟在你旁边。

I mean, just imagine yourself walking on the street and someone is holding a mirror next to you.

即使你刻意回避，大脑还是会不断检查自己的形象。

I mean, even if you avoid, your brain will try always to check how you look.

所以这个自拍视图功能本身就是个重大隐患。

So the fact that there was self view was a big risk.

它甚至被列为导致Zoom疲劳的最主要风险因素之一。

And it was even listed as among the most significant risk of zone fatigue or causes of zone fatigue.

因此我们致力于最小化自我视图。

So we worked on minimizing self view.

操作非常简单，你可以最小化自我视图，这意味着你仍然可以广播或分享你的视频，但不必看到自己。

It's as simple as you can minimize your self view, meaning that you can still broadcast or share your video, but you don't have to see yourself.

这是我们实施的一个例子。

That's one example that we worked on.

第二个问题涉及低互动性和无聊感，我们尝试理解如何能带来更多乐趣，同时让人们感到被倾听、被关注并保持活跃。

The second one, which was related to low interaction and boredom, we tried to understand how can we bring in a little bit more of joy, but at the same time, allow people to feel heard and seen and active.

这就是我们实际引入表情反应功能的原因，比如挥手或点赞。

And that's how we actually brought reaction, emoji reaction, that waving hand or thumb up.

因为有时取消静音说'我同意'或打断发言者说'我不同意'会显得很冒犯。

Because sometimes it feels invasive to unmute yourself and say, I agree, or cut the speaker for saying, Yes, I don't agree.

这些表情图标能帮助你保持活跃状态，保持连接和存在感，并在某种程度上提升互动性。

Mean, these images can help you stay alive, stay connected and present, and somehow improve the interactivity part.

这就是我们当时引入的两项功能。

So these are the two features that we introduced back then.

这个例子太棒了。

That is such a cool example.

我现在发现自己一直在用Google Meet而不是Zoom了。

I find myself using Google Meet all the time now instead of Zoom.

Google Meet团队做得太棒了。

So great job, Google Meet team.

我知道Zoom已经等待了很久，但我觉得Google Meet真的实现了逆袭。

I know Zoom was waiting for a long time, and I feel like Google Meet's really turned it around.

干得漂亮。

Good job.

让我再问几个问题来深入探讨这个话题。

Let me ask a couple questions to keep digging into this question.

感觉有些CEO、创始人和领导者都在说：是的，这值得投资。

It feels like some CEOs, founders, leaders are like, yes, this is worth investing in.

我们一定要做这个。

Let's definitely do it.

这里面有很多内容就像是，不，停下。

There's a lot there just like, no, stop.

等等，我们还有其他事情要做。

Wait, this like we got other stuff to do.

对于如何争取SEO或某些领导对这种事情的认可，你有什么最佳建议？

What's your best advice for trying to get buy in from SEO or just some kind of leader that shutting this kind of stuff down?

第一条建议就是尽量不要试图说服对方。

The very first advice is to try not to convince.

我的意思是，如果你试图说服，那基本就输了。

I mean, if you try to convince, it's a lost bottle.

我觉得我们生活在一个有对错之分的世界里。

I feel like we live in a world where there is a true, there is a false.

如果你跑去跟CEO或领导说，我听到Nisreen谈到光线问题，我们绝对应该这么做。

If you come to your CEO and leader say, like, I heard Nisreen talk about the light, we should absolutely do that.

这对组织的工作方式可能看起来像是一种威胁，因为这是新事物。

It might seem like a threat for the organization, the ways of working, because it's something new.

那你听说过感知与视角这个概念吗？

Instead, have you heard about this concept of perception versus perspective?

不，我想我没听过。

No, I don't think so.

感知是我们看待事物的方式。

So perception is our way of seeing things.

这正是我们理解事物的方式。

This is exactly how we understand things.

这就是我们被说服的方式。

This is how we are convinced.

例如，你听了一个关于光的播客，然后你对此形成了自己的看法。

For example, you listen to a podcast talking about the light, then you have your own view about what this is about.

而视角则是另一种看法，是世界的看法，是他人对光的理解。

Perspective though, is the other view, is the world's view, how other perceive the light.

所以很可能像领导者和CEO这些人说'不'的原因在于，他们认为光只是锦上添花的东西。

So it's very likely that others like leaders and CEO, the reason why they're saying no is because their view is that the light is about this nice to have or the cherry on the top.

因此，与其试图说服对方——这也是我为何说不要尝试去说服——不如尝试去理解并站在领导者和CEO的角度，思考他们最看重什么。

So instead of trying to convince, and that's why I said don't even try to convince, is to try to align and put yourself into the leader's and the CEO shoe and try what do they value most.

一旦你理解了这一点，就试着看看如何能让这条线（项目）与之对齐或帮助实现那个目标。

Once you understand that, try to see how can the line align or help achieve that goal.

让我分享一个例子给你。

And let me share an example with you.

因为当我离开谷歌开始指导创始人和首席产品官时，有一位创始人经营着一家帮助音乐家和艺术家寻找策展人的初创公司。

Because when I left Google and I started coaching founders and CPO, I had one founder actually who has been running a startup for helping musicians and artists to find curators.

我的意思是，这就是这家初创公司的核心价值和使命。

I mean, that's the core value and mission of the startup.

当我们开始辅导时，我们实际上是从讨论战略和OKR（目标与关键成果）入手的。

And when we initiated the coaching side, we actually started talking about strategy, OKR.

我的意思是，这正是他心中所想。

I mean, that's exactly what he had in mind.

他希望在制定产品战略和OKR方面获得帮助。

He wanted to get help into creating product strategies and OKRs.

随着我们辅导的深入，我们最终谈到了愉悦感这个话题。

And over time, as we started coaching, we ended up talking about delight.

原因是我当时问了他一个非常简单的问题。

The reason is I actually asked him this very simple question.

我问他，你认为你的用户会为使用你的产品感到自豪吗？

I asked him, do you think your users are proud to use your product?

他们是否足够自豪，会向其他艺术家和音乐家推荐你的产品？

Are they proud enough to tell others, artists and musicians, to use your product?

我觉得这个问题对他来说很难回答。

And I think that was a really hard question for him.

因为经过思考后，他说，不会。

Because after reflection, he said, no.

他们并不感到自豪，因为他们觉得自己很渺小。

They are not proud because they feel like they are little.

我的意思是，他们是在接受我们的帮助，所以无法靠自己获得策展人的青睐。

I mean, they are getting our help, so they are not able to get you curator by themselves.

那么谁会告诉别人他们很渺小，比如艺术家们，他们正在接受我们的帮助。

So who's gonna tell others that they are little, like, artists and they are having help from us.

那就是对话的开始。

That was the beginning of the conversation.

我认为两周后，他不断回来说，嘿，格林，我觉得我们需要把整个战略讨论转向如何让用户为使用我们的产品感到自豪。

And I think after two weeks, he kept coming back saying, Hey, Green, I think we need to shift our entire strategy discussion into how can we make our users proud of using the product.

我们需要想办法把我们的产品变成让用户感到自豪的产品，这样他们就能告诉其他音乐家，他们会进行口碑传播，让我们的产品成功。

We need to find ways to turn our product into, like our users, into proud users, and so they can tell others, tell other musicians they will play the word-of-mouth game, and they will allow our product to succeed.

顺便说一句，我们正是这么做的。

And that's exactly what we did, by the way.

所以一开始，这位创始人完全相反于我们在产品中引入愉悦感的做法。

So in the beginning, this founder was completely opposite to the fact that we introduced delight into the product.

但当他意识到，投资让用户感到自豪对业务增长、口碑传播和成功至关重要时，这便成为了首要战略。

But as soon as he realized that the fact that he invests into allowing their users to feel proud is so important for the growth and the word-of-mouth and the success of the business, that became the number one strategy.

顺便说一句，他们一直在成长。

And by the way, they've been growing.

他们现在已在美国上线。

They are now available in The US.

所以他们的发展非常顺利。

So things are going super well for them.

但只是想说明，你拒绝某件事并不一定意味着它是错误的。

But just to show that the fact that you're saying no does not necessarily mean that it's the wrong thing.

只是还不够契合。

It's just it's not aligned enough.

你需要找到方法让它们与他们重视的事物保持一致。

You need to find a way to align them with what they value.

这个建议太棒了。

That's awesome advice.

这对任何需要争取支持的事情都是好建议——理解他们的目标，将你的提案与他们想达成的目标联系起来。

It's good advice for just any thing you're trying to get buy in from is understand their goals, connect what you're proposing to what they wanna achieve.

甚至就像，根本不要提'愉悦'这个词。

And it's almost like, don't even use the word delight.

就像这样思考：好吧，这就是他们认为我们需要做的。

Just like think about, okay, here's what they believe we need to do.

如何通过消除摩擦、预见需求并超越预期来达成目标？

How might removing friction and anticipating needs and exceeding expectations get us there?

没错。

Yep.

然后稍后再提，这就是所谓的'愉悦感'。

And then later be like, it's delight.

开个玩笑啦。

I'm just kidding.

好的，刚才是个绝佳的例子。

Okay, that was an awesome example.

顺着这个思路，当你有了所有这些想法时——我们之前稍微讨论过——就像你有一堆点子，一堆提升体验、增添愉悦感的方法。

So along those lines, just when you have all these ideas, we talked about this a bit, but just like you have a bunch of ideas, a bunch of ways to do, add delight, make it a better experience.

在众多消除摩擦、预见需求、超越预期的方法中，你对优先级排序有什么建议？

What's your advice for prioritizing amongst all of the ways that you can remove friction, anticipate needs, exceed expectations?

你如何挑选真正值得投入的事情？

How do you pick the things that are actually worth investing in?

我首先要强调的是，我们需要转变那种让我们在愉悦性和功能性之间寻求平衡的思维模式。

The very first thing that I really wanna highlight here is that we need to shift from the mindset that tells us balancing or like, how can I balance between delight and functionality?

因为我们需要从'愉悦性对抗功能性'转向'功能中的愉悦性'。

Because we need to move away from delight versus functionality into delight in functionality.

这就是我最想分享的重要转变，因为我们应该彻底摒弃'该优先考虑愉悦性还是功能性'这种想法。

So that's the biggest move that I really wanna share here because we should really get away from idea that should I prioritize delight or should I prioritize functionality?

记住，深度愉悦这个概念要求在解决问题和创造解决方案时充分考虑情感因素。

And remember, like deep delight is that concept of trying to solve problems and create solutions in a way that emotion is taken into consideration into that.

顺便说一下，我创建了一个叫'五十四十十'的模型。

And by the way, I created this model called fiftyfortyten.

'五十四十十'实际上是一个指导原则，如果你已经完成了愉悦度分级，将你的解决方案或路线图或待办事项分为低愉悦、表面愉悦和深度愉悦三类，这个模型会告诉你50%的功能应该属于低愉悦类别。

And fiftyfortyten is actually a guidance or a recommendation so that if you have done your delight grade and you categorized your solutions or your road map or your backlog into low delight, surface delight, and deep delight, fifty forty ten will tell you that 50% of your features should be for low delight.

没错。

Yes.

50%应该只用于功能性，因为产品必须能正常运作。

50% should be for functionality only because, like, a product has to function.

我并不是说你应该只关注愉悦感。

I'm not saying that you should only work on delight.

40%用于深度愉悦感，实际上功能性已经具备。

40% for deep delight where actually functionality is there.

只是我们以略有不同的方式去构建，让人们感受到被重视，而只有10%用于表面愉悦感。

It's just that we are building it a little bit different so that people will feel valued, and only 10% for surface delight.

你知道吗？你可以在全年中少量引入表面愉悦感，比如说一年两个功能。

I mean, you can bring a little bit of surface delight throughout the year, maybe two features a year.

这样我们就能带来快乐，当然也会塑造我们正在打造的品牌形象和个性。

That we just bring that joy that people will create, of course, the brand and the personality that we are working on.

举个例子，当我在Spotify工作时，我们有时会把所有这些都融合到同一个路线图中。

And when I worked at Spotify, for example, we had some times where we, of course, blended all that into the same roadmap.

比如我们曾有过一段时间专门改进搜索功能，因为可能你不记得了，但曾经有段时间搜索表现并不理想。

Like for example, we had the time where we were working on improving search, because at some time, maybe you don't remember that, but at some point of time, search was not functioning that well.

所以这个功能得到了改进。

So that was improved.

这当然只是功能性的改进。

And that's of course, functionality only.

同时我们还在Spotify上推出了视频播客功能。

And also we work on introducing video podcast on Spotify.

我们还开发了Canvas功能。

And we worked on Canvas.

Canvas就是那些循环播放的小视频片段，当你打开Spotify时看到的那种小短片

So Canvas are these small video looping video, you know, the small clip when you open Spotify and you have like a small clip

我儿子对这个功能上瘾了。

My showing son is addicted to that.

他喜欢播放音乐，然后发现了这个类似Spotify版抖音的功能，可以边听音乐边看这些小视频片段。

He's like, he likes to play music and then he found this thing that is like TikTok for Spotify where he's just listening to the music and these little clips.

我都不知道该怎么形容我的感受。

I'm like, how do I feel?