人工智能对人类生存至关重要：思科总裁谈AI革命 | 吉图·帕特尔

听你这么说，我有个两岁半的孩子。

As I hear this, I have a two and a half year old.

听起来你把女儿教育得非常出色。

It sounds like you've you've done an amazing job raising your daughter.

这我可不敢居功。

I would take zero credit for it.

我觉得她能成长为现在的样子，主要归功于她自己和她妈妈。

I think I think she deserves a lot of credit for growing up to be who she's become, you know, and her mother.

必须给妈妈点个赞。

Gotta gotta shout out mom.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，我知道Anthropic在这方面非常重视。

What's interesting is that I know anthropic is really big.

比如价值观，以及你如何行事。

Like, this idea of values and just like how you operate.

Anthropic 发布了一份关于 Claude 核心价值观的宪章。

Anthropic has this constitution they released of how the values essentially of Claude.

有趣的是，培养一个优秀的人与正确引导 AI 之间有着惊人的相似之处。

And it's so interesting how much similarity there is to how to raise a great person and to how to steer an AI correctly.

没错。

That's right.

顺便说一句，你的某些信念或周围体系可能会改变，但价值观往往非常持久。

And and by the way, it's some of your beliefs and your system around you might change, but values tend to be pretty long lasting.

公司的文化也通常非常持久。

And culture in a company tends to be pretty long lasting.

就像本·霍洛维茨对此有非常精辟的论述。

Like, you know, when we Ben Horowitz talks about this very eloquently.

文化实际上是一套公司内部的行为规范，而不是一套信念。

The culture is just a set of norms that a company actually it's not it's not a set of beliefs.

它是一套你在公司内部展现出的行为方式，这确实非常正确，因为当事情不顺时，人们会如何表现，如何解决问题、团结协作？

It's a set of behaviors that you exude within the company, and it's it's it's actually very, very true because when things aren't going right, how do people behave to go solve problems and come together?

而这实际上形成了你们的文化规范。

And that actually forms your cultural norms.

我认为，对于这些文化规范，有意识地去塑造非常重要。

And I think those cultural norms are it's very important to be intentional about it.

随着世界上自动化程度的提高，不仅对人类，而且对机器也要有意识地规划，明确你们想要设立的边界，我认为这非常关键。

And as you have more automation in the world, being intentional not just with humans, but also with machines and what you wanna do to create the guardrails, I think, is pretty important.

我要把话题转向另一个方向。

I'm gonna take us in a a different direction.

我跟艾伦·列维聊过，你以前在……

I talked to Aaron Levy, your former boss at

你亲爱的

Your dear

朋友。

friend.

是的。

Yeah.

还有朋友。

And friend.

所以我问他，我应该问你些什么？

So I asked him just what should I ask you about?

他从你那里学到了什么，以至于自从和你共事以来一直铭记在心？

What's something that he he learned from you that has stuck with him ever since working with you?

他分享了‘获胜的权利’这个概念，他说这一直影响着他思考战略的方式。

And he shared this concept of the right to win, which he says has informed the way he thinks about strategy ever since.

谈谈这是什么，以及人们在思考产品战略或公司战略时该如何运用它。

Talk about what this is and how folks might use this when they're thinking about product strategy, company strategy.

我们经常讨论的一件事是，在我们要参与的领域，我们是否有资格参与？

One of the things that we would always talk about is in the areas that we're gonna participate, do we have permission to play?

每家公司都必须确保，它们进入市场的方式——即提供切入点和逻辑入口——在很大程度上取决于你是否拥有在该市场中参与的许可。

Every company, you know, has to make sure that the way in which they provide points of insertion and logical entry into a market is a lot of times dependent on, do you have the permission to play in that market?

你是否有途径到达市场，能否将产品推向市场？

Do you have an avenue to get to your to have a route to market to be able to take that product?

仅仅通过打造某个领域卓越的产品，并不能真正实现大规模的分发。

Just by building a product that is amazing in some area, you you don't end up actually getting it to mass scale distribution.

因此，我们经常会问自己一个问题。

And so one of the things that we would always do is ask ourselves a question.

我们正在构建一个新类别，或者一项新能力。

We're building this new category or we're building this new capability.

由Box来构建它，对用户来说是否比其他公司构建更合理？

Is it gonna be logical for people that Box built it versus another company building it?

就像由思科来构建它，是否比其他公司构建更合理？

You know, is it because it's gonna be logical for people that Cisco built it versus another company building it.

这就是所谓的‘参与许可’和‘获胜权利’。

So that's this notion of permission to play, the right to win.

我们在这个领域是否有获胜的权利，因为我们拥有参与的许可？

Do we have a right to win in that area because we have permission to play?

我们是否拥有通往市场的渠道，能够将产品推向大规模分发？

And do we have the route to market to be able to take that product and get it to mass scale distribution?

如果你能正确地做到这些，那么你在产品开发上投入的资金实际上会获得不成比例的回报。

And if you can do those things right, then actually your dollars that you expend on building product actually have an outsized return.

如果做不到，你可能会在产品上花很多钱，而人们却觉得：‘这些销售根本不懂产品。’

If not, then you can actually spend up spend end up spending a lot of money on product where the product people think, oh, these sales guys don't get it.

他们不知道怎么卖，尤其是在企业软件领域。

They don't know how to sell it, especially in enterprise software.

而销售人员则觉得：‘这些产品人员根本不懂销售。’

And the salespeople think these product guys don't get it.

他们不知道该怎么打造产品。

They don't know how to build it.

因此，我认为要解决这个问题，你必须利用自身的规模优势，利用那些你拥有‘入场许可’的领域——让人们觉得，像思科这样的公司来做这件事非常合理。

And so I think in order to stop that, what you have to do is you have to actually use your scale as an advantage, and you have to use the areas where you've got the ability to have permission to play where people feel like this is very logical for a company like Cisco.

比如，当我们说要将GPU联网，确保我们在人工智能领域拥有一个可信的系统时，这并不牵强，因为这对我们来说是非常自然的事情。

Like, when we say we are gonna network the GPUs and make sure that we actually have a trusted system in AI, that is not far fetched for someone to go out and think about because it's a very natural thing for us to do.

因为过去四十年来，我们一直在为非人工智能的其他基础设施做同样的事情。

Because for the past forty years, we've been doing it for the rest of the infrastructure that was not AI.

所以这么说并不遥远，好吧。

And so that's not a far cry to say, okay.

我们现在也要为AI这么做。

We'll now do it for AI.

你知道的。

You know?

我认为那是我和亚伦花了不少时间的一个领域，顺便说一下，我很高兴他从我这里把这一点提炼出来了。

And I think that was an area that Aaron and I spent a fair and by the way, you know, I'm glad that he he took that out of me.

我从他身上学到了很多。

There's so much I've learned from him.

我从他身上学到的最重要的一点是：永远不要放弃，坚持比智慧更重要，耐力在任何一天、每周两次星期天都胜过智慧。

The biggest area I've learned from him is you never give up, and persistence beats intellect, and stamina beats intellect any day of the week twice on Sunday.

那个人聪明得不得了，但那并不是他成功的最主要原因。

And that that guy is as smart as they come, but that is not the wide that's not the biggest reason he's successful.

他成功的最大原因是他在这场游戏中拥有惊人的持久力。

He biggest reason he's successful is he has an enormous amount of staying power in the game.

你知道吗，回到我女儿的评论，无论别人怎么说，他都会坚持自己的信念和观点，并在最艰难的时刻挺过来。

You know, going back to my daughter's comment of no matter what what everyone else says, his convictions and belief, he will actually stick by them and actually get through the hardest times.

我完全相信这一点。

I totally believe that.

我觉得我通常不是房间里最聪明的人，但我之所以能成功，很大程度上是因为我非常努力。

I I feel like I'm not the smartest person in the room usually, and I succeed in large part because I just work really hard.

你你

You're you're

不过你挺聪明的。

pretty smart, though.

我其实已经看了你一段时间的播客了。

Like, I've I've been watching your podcast for a while.

你做得非常出色。

Like, you've done a pretty amazing job.

谢谢你的认可。

I appreciate it.

所以，在这个‘赢得许可’的概念中，我认为它如此重要，是因为现在构建东西变得太容易了。

So in this this permission to win concept, the reason I think it's so important is it's so easy to build stuff now.

每个人都在不停地构建、构建、构建、发布、发布、发布。

Everyone's just building, building, building, building, launching, launching, launching, launching.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得，‘我们为何能在这一领域胜出’正成为一个越来越重要的关键因素。

It feels like this is an increasingly important lever is why will we win in this space.

我想知道，你能否分享一个来自Box或思科的例子，比如‘我们就做这个，因为我们有权利在这个领域玩’。

I'm curious if there's an example you can share either from Box or Cisco where it's just like, okay, this is like, we're gonna do this because we because we have the permission to to play here.

我同意你的观点，如果生成代码变得唾手可得，那并不意味着你能仅仅因为能生成大量代码就获得更好的技术。

I agree with you in the sense that if if generating code is something that becomes abundant, That doesn't mean you're gonna have better technology just because you can generate a lot of code.

你仍然需要人类的判断。

You still need human judgment.

你仍然需要一种直觉，去判断哪些问题才是真正值得解决的。

You still need a level of intuition on what problems are the right ones to solve.

你仍然需要，是的，AI可以帮助你完成所有这些，但人类的超能力恰恰在于此。

You still and yes, AI can help you with all of that, but it's not something that like, that's where humans have a superpower.

他们拥有直觉，能够确保自己实现一种愿景，即我认为这个事物在长远来看会成为什么样子。

They have instinct, and they can actually make sure that they can, you know, fulfill out a vision that says, this is what I think this could be in in the fullness of time.

所以我认为这一点非常重要。

And so that that I think is pretty important.

因此，我们越容易消除瓶颈来生成代码，就越难确保市场上不会充斥着低质量的AI产物，我们必须非常谨慎地选择哪些事情才是最能解决最重要问题的关键所在。

So the more the easier it gets for us to get the bottlenecks out to generate code, the harder it gets for us to make sure that there's not AI slop in the market and that we actually are very selective on what are the things that are gonna be the most important things that solve the most important problems moving forward.

关于‘参与许可’的例子，我的意思是，有太多想法了。

Example of permission to play is I mean, there's so many ideas.

像思科这样规模的公司，我们不断涌现出新的想法。

At a company the size of Cisco, we have constantly new ideas that keep coming up.

这些源源不断的新想法，人们总会说，天哪。

And those new ideas that keep coming up, people will always say, Oh my goodness.

这家公司表现得真好。

This company is doing so well.

我们干脆直接进入那个市场，或者进入这个市场吧。

We should just go into that market, or we should just go into this market.

在90%甚至99%的情况下，我发现自己都会说不。

And 90% of the times, 99% of the times, I find myself saying no.

原因在于，你必须极其谨慎地选择在哪里投入你的精力。

And the reason for that is you have to be extremely selective of where you expend your calories.

这种精力的消耗，如果你能高度聚焦地投入，那么在该领域获得的成果往往会成倍放大、远超预期。

And that caloric expenditure is is where you know, if you expend your calories in a very focused way, the results you'll get from that focus area tend to be outsized and disproportionate.

如果你把精力分散到太多不同的领域，就没有一个能获得足够的厚度来彻底推进。

If you dissipate that caloric burn across multitude of different areas, nothing gets enough girth to be able to go out and drive it all the way through.

那么，为什么思科不进入消费科技领域呢？

And and so, like, you know, why are we not in business to consumer tech at Cisco?

对吧？

Right?

为什么我们不去开发那些非常面向消费者的业务呢？

Like, why why are we not going out and building things that are very, very b to c?

因为我认为我们没有真正融入我们核心基因的分销渠道。

Because I don't think we have a distribution channel that actually is within our DNA.

我认为我们没有资格涉足那个领域。

I don't think that we've got permission to play there.

在那个领域，人们很难接受思科应该参与其中的事实。

That's an area where it would be extremely hard for people to grow up that Cisco should be the one who's participating in that.

那么，我们能做得到吗？

Now can we do it?

当然，我们能做到。

Of course, we can do it.

但我们真的想往那个方向走吗？还是我们应该去那些我们能凭借自身优势全力推进、从而获得更高投资回报的领域？

Is that where we wanna go, or do we wanna go where there's so much opportunity in the areas where we can actually prosecute with with the with the with the ability to have you know, operate from a position of strength that you just get a much better return for the dollar that you invest.

你提到过Aaron是你学到了很多的一位CEO。

You mentioned Aaron as a CEO that you learned a lot from.

我想知道你还从其他哪些CEO身上学到了很多，以及你从他们身上学到了什么。

I'm curious what other CEOs you've learned a lot from, and what's what's something you learned from them.

查克·罗宾斯是我最喜欢的人之一，而且不仅仅是因为我为他工作。

Chuck Robbins is one of my favorite humans and not just because I work for him.

我为他工作，是因为他是我最喜欢的人之一。

I work for him because he's one of my favorite humans.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且

And

我从他身上学到的一点是，他有一句特别棒的话。

what I've learned from him, he had this kind of great line.

当时有一篇媒体报道，而我们的媒体本质上就是非常煽动性的。

There was this, you know, piece of press that I our our media is very sensationalist in by by definition.

对吧？

Right?

它们会试图营造一种两极分化的世界观，而现实中并不存在这样的对立。

Like, they will try to create a very polarized view about the world where there actually isn't one.

我生活中的大多数事情，都没有媒体头条所描述的那么极端。

And most things in my life, things are not as extreme as you hear of the headlines of the media.

你知道的？

You know?

事情其实处于中间状态。

It's somewhere in the middle.

对吧？

Right?

曾经有一篇文章发表了。

And there was one time that there was this article that ran.

那篇文章过分夸大了我的贡献，坦白说，却没有充分认可查克在某件他实际完成的事情上的功劳。

And it was about, like, you know, giving me an unnecessary amount of credit and, frankly, not giving Chuck as much credit about something that he has actually done.

我们内部的许多变革，如果没有他聘用我并赋予我自主权去完成所需的工作，根本不会发生。

Like, a lot of the movements that we've had internally wouldn't have happened if he had not hired me and given me agency to go do the things that I needed to get done.

他对需要发生什么有着完全一致的看法。

And he was very much completely in sync with me on what needed to happen.

所以，当你看到这篇文章时，我根本不知道是谁写的，我联系了他们。

And so, you know, I when I saw this article, I had no idea who the report I I reached out.

我说，嘿。

I'm like, hey.

我只是想让你知道，这并不是我说的，是别人说的。

I just wanna let you know this was not me saying it's someone.

我对他说：别担心，老兄。

I was like, Cheetah, don't worry about it, man.

我人生中学到的一点是，如果你不在乎谁得到功劳，你就能走得更远。

What I've learned in life is if you don't care about who gets the credit, you just go a lot farther in life.

这在很多方面都意义深远，因为他太过自信，不会在意这些小事。

And it's so profound, right, in so many ways that he's just way too confident to let anything.

所以我从查克身上学到的是，自信的重要性，以及清楚自己擅长什么、不擅长什么的重要性。

And so the thing I've learned from Chuck is the importance of confidence and the importance of knowing what you're good at and what you're not good at.

当你不擅长某件事时，你就该为自己组建一个团队。

And when you're not good, you're gonna assemble a team of people around you.

他在这方面简直炉火纯青。

He's just he's just masterful at that.

而且这种情况经常发生。

And it happens

顺便说一下，他是思科的首席执行官，以防有人不知道。

By the way, he's the he's the CEO of Cisco in case people have

没错。

That's right.

他是思科的首席执行官。

He's the CEO of Cisco.

他是商业圆桌会议的主席。

He's the chair of the business roundtable.

他是我非常要好的朋友。

He's a very dear friend of mine.

我觉得，这种思维模式和心态有很多值得学习的地方。

And and I feel like there's a lot to learn from that kind of mental model and mindset.

我真的很幸运，利尼，这纯粹是运气使然。

And I I I've been lucky enough, Lenny, that and this is just dumb luck.

我曾经共事过的人，都和我关系非常亲密。

The people that I've worked with and for are all very, very close to me.

我从不让这些人离开我的生活。

And I just don't let them go from my life.

比如，我曾经和亚伦一起工作，当我离开时，场面非常感人，但我希望做点不一样的事。

And so one of the things, for example, is I worked with Aaron, and then when I was leaving, it was very emotional, but I wanted to do something different.

但我们彼此承诺，每六周一起吃一次晚饭。

But we committed to each other that we're gonna have dinner every six weeks.

亚伦、另一位联合创始人杰夫·克韦泽，还有我，我们三个人每六周在帕洛阿尔托聚餐一次。

And Aaron and there's another cofounder, Jeff Kweiser, and I, three of us, Every six weeks in Palo Alto, we have dinner.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是我至今仍在坚持的最特别的事情之一，现在已经成为一种传统了。

And it's one of the most special things that I I still do, and it's a tradition now.

已经持续六年了，我非常喜欢。

It's been going on for six years, and and I love it.

你知道吗？

You know?

你看看像查克这样的人。

You you look at someone like Chuck.

我每天早上都会先和他聊天。

We have I I start with my day with talking to him in the morning.

我们会互相发短信。

We we text each other.

然后每天晚上我都会和他聊一聊结束一天。

And then I end the day talking to him in the evening.

我们每天至少会联系四到五次。

And we probably touch base at least four or five times a day.

并不是每次对话都很长，但我们一直保持着联系。

They're not long conversations at all points in time, but we're constantly in contact with each other.

我觉得，只有当你建立了足够的信任时，才会发生这种情况。

And I feel like that only happens when you've established enough trust.

我刚搬到加利福尼亚时的第一位老板，是叫里克·德瓦努蒂的这个人，然后还有另一位叫杰里米·伯顿的人。

My first boss when I moved to California, is this guy named Rick Devanuti and then and then another guy named Jeremy Burton.

你知道，里克·德瓦努蒂至今仍然是我的导师。

You know, Rick Devanuti is still my coach.

我每两周见他一次。

I see him every two weeks.

杰里米是我非常亲密的朋友，也是我们的邻居，我们搬家买房就是为了能住在他旁边。

Jeremy is someone that's a very dear friend of mine and your neighbors, and we moved and bought a place next to his just so that we could be close to him.

这些是你生命中特殊的人，他们以各种不同的方式丰富了你的生活，我觉得你必须确保珍惜他们。

And these are, like, special people in your life that have enriched your life in very different ways that I I think you just have to make sure that you treasure.

本期节目由Samsara赞助。

Today's episode is brought to you by Samsara.

如果你听这个播客，就知道我们经常谈论那些出现在屏幕上的东西，比如用户引导流程、移动应用和结账流程。

If you listen to this podcast, you know that we spend a lot of time talking about building things that sit on a screen, onboarding funnels, mobile apps, and checkout flows.

Samsara 正在为物理世界打造产品。

Samsara is building products for the physical world.

急救人员奔赴紧急现场，卡车司机运送关键物资，建筑工人建设我们的城市和数据中心。

First responders racing to emergencies, truck drivers carrying critical supplies, construction workers building our cities and data centers.

这些人每天都全力以赴，而 Samsara 的技术保护着他们。

These are people who put everything on the line every single day, and Samsara's technology protects them.

Samsara 正在解决硬件、软件和边缘人工智能交汇处的复杂问题。

Samsara is solving complex problems at the intersection of hardware, software, and edge AI.

他们的 AI 不仅仅能检测事件。

And their AI doesn't just detect events.

它还能推断意图，回答诸如：那位卡车司机突然刹车是因为分心，还是一次英勇的举动？

It reasons about the intent and answers questions like, did that truck driver brake abruptly because they were distracted, or was that a heroic act?

如果你想让大语言模型扎根于混乱的现实世界遥测数据，或在行星规模上解决边缘人工智能的限制，Samsara 想和你聊聊。

If you want to ground LLMs in messy, real world telemetry or solve edge AI constraints at a planetary scale, Sumsara wants to talk to you.

如果你喜欢处理海量数据、快速迭代，并在小团队中工作，来加入我们，一起打造让物理世界更安全、更高效的科技吧。

If you like playing with enormous datasets, moving fast, and working in small teams, come help build the technology that makes the physical world safer and more efficient.

访问 samsara.com/leni 了解更多。

Visit samsara.com/leni to learn more.

那就是 samsara.com/leni。

That's samsara.com/leni.

所以你目前是思科的首席产品官。

So you're currently CPO, at Cisco.

我认为你手下有大约两万五千人。

You I think the team under you is at 25,000 people.

这个数字对吗？

Is that the right number?

大约三万人。

About 30,000.

但是

But

三万人。

30,000 people.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

在接手这个职位之前，你希望早点知道什么？

What's what's something that you wish you'd known before taking on this role?

我不确定我是不是一开始就意识到了，但我在思科的时候这种感觉被极大地放大了，因为当人们说‘规模化很难吗？’

I don't know if it was I mean, I instinctively kind of knew it, but it was very, very accentuated at Cisco because when you like, you know, when people say, oh, is scale hard?

我的观点一直认为，没有规模比有规模更难。

And my perspective has always been that the absence of scale is way harder than scale.

我什么意思呢？

What do I mean by that?

比如，如果我有一个只有三个人的初创公司，我们需要推进另一个想法，而这个想法需要五个人来做，我就得去融资。

Like, if I have a start up with three people and we need to prosecute another idea and that idea requires, you know, five people working on it, I have to go raise money.

对吧？

Right?

也就是说，我得彻底转型我的整个业务。

Like, it's it's an I have to pivot my entire business.

如果你有三万人，而有一个想法只需要五个人，你只需要想办法在内部调配资源，然后说，我们去推进这个想法。

If you have 30,000 people and you have an idea that requires five people, you just figure out a way that you allocate the dollars internally and say, let's go prosecute this idea.

所以在我眼里，我一直觉得，缺乏规模远比拥有规模更难。

So in my mind, I always felt like absence of scale was way harder than the presence of scale.

而在规模之内运营，感觉就像是，是的，你有更多机会去实现。

And operating with within scale seemed like it was like, yeah, you have more opportunity to do it.

这些年来，我不仅在思科发现这一点，甚至在我搬到硅谷之前，在芝加哥经营一家小型初创公司长达十七年时也发现了。

What I found over the years, not just at Cisco, but even when I because I ran a small startup in in in Chicago for, like, seventeen years before I moved over to the Valley.

我在大公司里发现，沟通框架和信息传递中的损耗——就像传话游戏一样——如果不够主动和谨慎，会产生深远的负面影响。

What I found in the large companies is communication framework and the lossiness of communication, the telephone game, so to say, has a profoundly negative effect if you're not intentional about it and if you're not careful of it.

我们曾经有一位董事会成员。

And there was this board member that we had.

有几位董事会成员。

There's a couple board members.

我们的首席董事迈克尔·卡佩利斯非常出色。

You know, our lead director, Michael Capellis, is amazing.

还有另一位董事会成员。

There's this other board member.

你知道，凯文非常棒。

You know, Kevin is amazing.

还有一位董事会成员，韦斯·布什，我们最近刚让他卸任，但他以前一直在我们的董事会里。

And then there's this one board member, Wes Bush, who we recently, you know, rolled off, but he used to be on our board.

当我接手这份工作时，他把我拉到一边。

And when I got this job, he pulled me aside.

他对我说：‘吉科，我得告诉你一件事。’

He's like, Giko, I'm gonna tell you something.

我要给你一些建议。

I'm gonna give you some advice.

你愿意听就听，不愿意听也行，但我认为你最好记住这一点。

And take it or leave it, but I think it's gonna be important for you to keep it in mind.

那是什么？

Like, what's that?

他说，无论你做什么，都不要把公司的故事当成一项营销活动。

And he goes, whatever you do, don't think about your story of the company as a marketing exercise.

要把这看作是公司最内在、最基础的使命，并始终守护这个信息。

Think about it as the most intrinsic foundational exercise of the company and always be the custodian of the message.

不要把这项工作委托给别人去传达。

Don't delegate that to someone else to give it.

因为如果你和一线员工之间隔着三、四、五、六、七层，你最不想做的就是玩传话游戏，以为当你对团队说‘好吧’之后，信息就会自然地层层传递下去。

Because if you have three, four, five, six, seven layers between you and the person who's actually doing the job in the front line, what you don't wanna do is play the telephone game and assume that people will just cascade it when you go to your team and then say, okay.

这个团队会传给下一个团队，再传给下一个团队，再传给下一个团队。

That team will cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team.

每一层都会出于好意加入自己的理解。

Every one of them will add a flavor with well intentioned.

等到信息传到最末端时，人们就不知道它原本是什么了。

And then by the time it gets to the end, people won't know what it is.

所以，一定要亲自来讲这个故事。

So always own telling the story.

我当时想，这听起来负担太重了，因为我们产品线非常广泛。

And I'm like, that seems like it's a lot because, like, we have a very broad portfolio.

我们举办所有这些活动。

We do all of these events.

我的意思是，我得站在台上讲上九十分钟，不停地讲这些内容。

It's, you know, like, I'm gonna have to sit stand on stage for ninety minutes and just talk about it.

他说：请一定要这么做。

He's like, please do that.

确保你不要忽略这一点，而我最初没有意识到的一个隐藏好处是，这极大地简化了我们的业务，Lenny。

Make sure you don't and and I initially the hidden benefit that came out of it that I did not realize is it massively, Lenny, simplified our business.

你知道为什么吗？

And you know why?

因为我们业务范围太广，涉及太多不同行业。

Because we have such a broad business with so many different industries.

不可能有人在每一个领域都成为深度专家。

It's impossible for someone to be a deep expert in every single one of them across the board.

毕竟，覆盖的范围太广了。

Like, there's just way too much surface area.

但我们希望向市场传达的核心信息，如果连我自己都还没能清晰地表达出来，我又怎么能指望我的两万名销售人员去向市场传递这个故事呢？

But the things that we want to convey to the market that the market should take away from us, if that story is not something that I understand well enough to be able to convey it, how do I first expect 20,000 of my sellers to be able to go tell it to the market?

我又怎么能指望客户去理解这个故事呢？

And how do I expect my customers to be able to digest that story?

这根本不可能发生。

There's zero chance that would happen.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这是我从这件事中得到的主要启示：不要把讲故事的工作外包出去。

And so that was my my kind of big takeaway from this, which is don't delegate the storytelling.

讲故事不是在产品做完之后才进行的营销活动。

And the storytelling is not a marketing exercise after you built the product.

故事是你打造产品的初衷，为了让这个故事成真。

The story is why you build the product to make the story come real.

所以首先要确保故事的存在，然后这个故事要有你所开发产品所提供的证据和实证支持。

And so make sure that the story is there first, and then that story has evidence and proof based on the products that you're building.

我和Rippling的首席运营官兼现任首席产品官马特·麦金尼斯聊过，他给了我类似的一条建议，我认为这是一条相近的建议，那就是一个想法或计划在从首席执行官传递到下一层、再下一层的过程中，其强度会逐层减弱。

I had a conversation with Matt Mc McGinnis, who's COO and now CPO at Rippling and hit a similar piece of advice, which I think is also it's like adjacent advice, which is the intensity of an idea or a plan drops at every level that it goes from CO to the next layer and layer.

而你作为领导者的职责是保持这种强度，而不是把它缓冲掉，要始终保持完全一致的强度。

And your job as a leader is to maintain that intensity, not to buffer it from the employees, but to maintain exactly the same intensity.

这感觉就像是，除了保持故事不变——不要过滤它，不要改动它——之外，还要做到这一点。

And it feels like that's in addition to also just keep the story the same, like don't filter it, don't change it.

不过你的建议甚至更进一步，那就是你亲自去团队那里，亲自讲述这个故事。

Although your advice is even different, just like you actually go to the team working on it and and tell the story yourself.

甚至不要让

Don't even let

我想确保他们能直接从我这里听到这个故事，这样才不会有任何信息损耗。

I wanna make sure that they hear it from me directly so that there's no lossiness.

你知道，在网络中我们有个概念叫数据包丢失，当你通过线缆发送数据包时，可能会出现数据包丢失，从而导致数据损失。

You know, like, we have this concept in networking called packet loss when the you know, you actually send packets over a wire and then you have a loss of packet, then then actually there's there's loss of data.

就像你从自己到一线员工的叙事过程中，不希望出现数据包丢失，因为

Like, you don't wanna have packet loss in your storytelling from you to the person on the front line because

这就像是直接的以太网五类线连接。

The direct Ethernet cat five connection.

这只是一个直接的连接，你知道，这种连接不会出现数据包丢失。

This is just a direct connection, and, you know, there's no packet loss on this one.

你必须确保信息能准确传达给目标受众。

Like, you you gotta make sure it gets to the intended audience.

我认为原因在于，随着公司规模扩大，它们可能会与一线员工脱节。

And I think the reason for that is as companies get large, they can lose touch with the frontlines.

每个人都能把业务的数学算得非常精准，但却未必总能保留住业务的灵魂。

Like, everyone gets really good with the math of the business, but they don't really always preserve the soul of the business.

当你们和一线员工之间隔着七八层时，就会出现信息损耗，甚至从他们那里反馈回来的信息也会变得失真。

And there's a lossiness that happens because if you have seven, eight layers between you and the frontline, even the message that's coming back to you from them is actually getting lossy.

所以你需要做的就是保持，正如之前提到的关于强度的说法，你也必须保持这种强度。

And so what you have to do is just preserve and I think what was said earlier about the intensity is the same way, which is you gotta preserve the intensity.

你必须维护信息的神圣性，也要保持信息的清晰性，确保每个人都能清楚地了解我们正在走的方向。

You gotta preserve the sanctity of the message, and you gotta preserve the clarity of the message so that everyone is clear on the direction we're going down.

如果你能保持清晰并对此方向保持动力，确保每个人都清楚需要做什么来执行，你就一定会成功。

And if you can stay clear and stay motivated about that direction and make sure that everyone's on the same page on what needs to be done to execute, you will have success.

如果不能，你将不可避免地遭遇失败。

If not, you will actually have guaranteed failure.

你如何在不被工作压垮、不必不断与每个团队会面并反复提醒他们这个故事的情况下，真正落实这一点呢？

How do you actually operationalize this without just, being overloaded with work and constantly having to, you know, meet with every team and remind them of the story?

我认为首先你必须有清晰的思考，因为思想的清晰才会带来沟通的清晰。

The first thing I feel is you have to have very clear thinking because the clarity of thought is what brings clarity of communication.

所以你需要花时间与团队一起，深入推敲你想做什么以及为什么要做。

So you have to spend the time with your team and sweating the details on what what it is that you wanna do and why you wanna do it.

‘为什么’的背景信息总是容易被忽略，不断提醒人们它的重要性，并尽量减少组织最高层与最底层之间的信息不对称，这至关重要。顺便说一下，我是一名第十六节官员。

The context of why is so lost and constantly reminding people why it's important and having the least amount of asymmetry between the topmost layer in the organization and the bottommost layer is super now, by the way, you know, I'm a section sixteen officer.

有些事情，比如在静默期，你就不能在这段时间内跟别人谈论。

There are certain things that, for example, you're in a quiet period, you can't go talk about to someone else during that time period.

比如，这是不允许的。

Like, know, that's not allowed.

然而，只要你被允许，尽可能多地提供背景信息，对你越有利。

However, the most amount of context that you can provide them in the way that you can because you're allowed to, the better off you are.

而且始终要把人当成人来对待。

And always treat people like adults.

你知道吗？

You know?

我发现，进入企业环境后，人们往往提供的信息变得非常枯燥乏味。

Like, what I found is oftentimes when you go into corporate environments, like, people start becoming very sterile in the facts that they provide.

有时候，直接说一句‘嘿’也没关系。

And sometimes it's okay to just say, hey.

我们这里搞砸了。

We screwed up here.

这真的很糟糕。

This was really bad.

这并不是我想说的，事实上我发现这一点非常违反直觉，因为每本管理书籍都会告诉你相反的做法。

That's not meant to you know, like, one of the things that I found to be very counterintuitive because every management book that you read will tell you otherwise.

他们怎么说的？

What do they say?

公开表扬，私下批评。

Praise in public and criticize in private.

我从根本上不同意这个观点。

I fundamentally disagree with that notion.

我认为你需要在团队中建立足够的信任，这样你才能在公开场合坦率地提出批评和展开讨论。

I think what you have to do is establish enough trust among the team so that you are comfortable critiquing and debating in public.

但在私下的时候，要把握机会去建立信任。

But when you're in private, take that moment to build the trust.

因为如果你建立了这种信任，告诉他们你站在他们这边，并在公开场合营造出一种安全感，你就不会陷入装模作样的状态。

Because if you build that trust and you tell them that you've got their back and you create a level of safety there in public, you don't want to be in a mode of posturing.

你应该处于解决问题的状态。

You want to be in a mode of problem solving.

当你总是给人们敷衍的赞美，一切都显得完美无缺、戴着玫瑰色眼镜，所有仪表盘都显示绿色，但你的业务增长率却只有1.5%时。

When you're just giving people perfunctory compliments all the time and everything is just hunky dory, rose colored glasses great, all your dashboards look green, but you're growing the business at, one and a half percent.

这里存在一种不对称性。

Like, there's there's an asymmetry there.

出问题了。

Something's broken.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们在这里到底需要做些什么？

It's like, what do we need to do over here?

所以我通常采用完全相反的做法。

And so what I tend to do is use the exact opposite approach.

我倾向于在公开场合非常直接。

I tend to be very, very direct in public.

你知道的，要尊重别人，但在公开场合要直接了当。

You know, be respectful, but be direct in public.

这行不通。

This is not working.

让我告诉你为什么行不通。

Let me tell you why it's not working.

我们必须正视现实。

We gotta face the facts.

然后在私下里要明确告诉别人，你站在他们这边。

And then be very, very kind of, clear with people that you got their back in private.

在这方面别吝啬言辞，你知道，我觉得有时候人们在私下里对别人特别吝啬言辞。

And don't be stingy with words on that front, you know, because I feel like there are times when people are very stingy with words with people in private.

在那边别吝啬言辞，也不要吝啬在公开场合提出批评，因为我认为我们必须确保一起解决问题。

You can't be stingy with words over there, and don't be don't be stingy with critique in public because I think people need to make sure that we're we're solving problems together.

如果我们不知道自己在执行什么策略，不清楚接下来需要做什么，那我真的不确定我们是否在共同进步。

And if we don't know the play that we're executing, if we don't know the things that we're gonna need to do, then then I I'm not really certain if you're making collective progress.

我认为，迟早这对你们双方都不会有满足感。

And I think it's not gonna be fulfilling to either you or the recipient at some point.

那些赞美会显得空洞，因为你并非真心实意，你只是想把它夹在中间，就像本·霍洛维茨在《艰难时刻的艰难之事》中说的那样，你是在给对方吃一个‘屎三明治’。

And those those compliments will feel hollow because you didn't mean them, because you you you were trying to put it in between, you know, like Ben Horowitz says in the hard things about hard things that keep you have a shit sandwich.

你先对某人说一些非常友善的话，然后再说一些不太友善的话，最后再补一句‘不’。

You say something really nice to someone, then you say something that's not really nice, and then you put no.

直接把人当成人来对待。

Just treat people like adults.

告诉他们事实。

Tell them the facts.

注意你的语气。

Watch your tone.

我仍然需要在这方面多加练习。

I still have to work on that.

有时候我会变得非常激动。

There are times when I get very passionate.

人们总觉得，你知道的，但要注意你的语气。

People think like, you know, but watch your tone.

并且要明白，冲突是商业中必不可少的条件。

And make sure that you debate conflict is a necessary condition of business.

但只有建立了信任，才能进行富有成效的冲突。

But the only way that you can have productive conflict is if you've established trust.

而建立信任的唯一方法，就是花时间去真正建立这份信任。

And the only way that you can establish trust is by making sure that you spend the time to establish the trust.

所以，花时间建立信任，然后专注于让最好的想法胜出，真正展开讨论。

So spend the time to establish the trust, but then focus on the best idea winning and actually having the debate.

从这段经历中，你是否还学到了另一个教训？

Is there maybe one more lesson that you learned from this?

或者，也许是你在担任这个职位之前希望早点知道的事情？

Or I guess it's something you wish you'd known before getting into this role.

还有其他想到的吗？

Is there anything else that comes to mind?

我是个应用开发者。

I was an apps guy.

你知道的，我一直活跃在应用层。

You know, I've I operated in the apps layer.

我在Box工作过。

I worked at box.

即使在EMC的时候，我也在开发面向最终用户的应用。

And even when I was at EMC, I I was building apps that, you know, you build for the end user.

基础设施是另一回事。

Infrastructure is a different game.

我从基础设施中学到的是，你不一定能得到赞誉，但总是会背锅。

And the thing that I learned about infrastructure is you don't always get the glory, but you always get the blame.

完美。

Perfect.

你必须接受这样一个事实：你所做的工作，荣耀却属于别人。

And and you have to be comfortable with the fact that you are working in a way that other people get the glory.

优秀的基础设施公司，那些运行在其上的应用公司才会获得赞誉。

Great infrastructure companies, the application companies get the glory when they're running on that infrastructure.

你知道吗？

You know?

因此，你在基础设施领域工作时，必须本能地以生态系统的成功为导向，而不仅仅是追求自身的成功。

And so you you have to be hardwired in infrastructure to orient on your ecosystem's success, not just your own success.

这可能是我在思科学到的最鲜明的教训之一，当时我并没有完全理解，直到深入接触基础设施的细节时才恍然大悟。

And that is probably one of the lessons that I learned at Cisco in a very stark way, which I I didn't fully appreciate it until I got into the details of the infrastructure going, wow.

如果这东西出问题了，你知道吗？今天早上，我们的基础设施又出故障了，我当时正和一家医疗机构在一起。

If this thing doesn't work you know, like we were every single time our infrastructure doesn't work this morning, I was with with a medical institution.

今天早上我和一家医疗公司在一起，他们告诉我这些，还非常客气。

Was with a health care company this morning, and they were telling me that and they were very complimentary.

他们感谢我们之间的合作。

They were thanking us on the partnership.

我问他们，为什么你们要继续加大与我们的合作？

I I asked them, why do you why are you doubling down with us?

他们说，因为基础设施一旦出问题，人就会死。

And they're like, because when the infrastructure doesn't work, people die.

有人无法接受透析。

Someone doesn't get dialysis.

有人无法进行手术。

Someone doesn't get a surgery done.

我们必须确保与那些确保基础设施正常运行的人合作。

And we need to make sure that we're working with someone with the infrastructure is working.

所以在那一刻，你不能太沉迷于自我欣赏，觉得‘我做了件多酷的事’。

And so I feel like at that point in time, you can't be navel gazing too much about look how cool you are because you did something.

你必须立即把注意力转向客户和生态系统如何利用你的基础设施，以实现预期成果。

You have to just make sure that you're really immediately shifting your focus to what does the customer do and what does the ecosystem do with your infrastructure so that outcome is achieved?

你必须非常注重成果导向。

And you have to get very outcome oriented.

我觉得，我以前在理智上一直明白这一点，但直到我来到这里，才真正意识到这种思维转变有多么重要。

And I feel like that was something that I always intellectually knew, but I didn't fully realize it until I came here on how important of a mindset shift that is.

你不是在谈论自己。

You are not talking about yourself.

你在谈论系统正常运行。

You're talking about the system just working.

不会有人过来对你说：嘿，吉图。

No one will come and tell you, hey, Jithu.

谢谢你。

Thank you so much.

我的网络今天正常运行了。

My network worked today.

对吧？

Right?

但一旦它无法运行，他们就会打电话给你说：你知道吗？

But the moment it doesn't work, they're gonna call you and say, you know what?

我的网络出问题了，我的人没法工作，医院里的病人正在死去。

My network's not working and my people can't work and patients are dying in the hospital.

我认为你必须对此感到自在。

And I think you just have to be comfortable with that.

这个教训与你从思科首席执行官查克那里学到的教训如此直接地联系在一起，真是令人着迷——那就是不要期待赞美和认可。

It's so interesting how this how this lesson connects so directly to the lesson you learned from Chuck, the CEO of Cisco, which is don't don't expect the the praise and the credit.

你需要对别人因你的工作而获得认可感到自在。

You need to be comfortable with other people getting credit for your work.

没错。

That's right.

顺便说一句，考虑到他在这里待了大约二十六、二十八年，这并不奇怪。

And by by by the way, it's not surprising given that he spent, like, I don't know, twenty six, twenty eight years over here.

你知道吗？他已经被塑造得习惯于关注他人因你的工作部分而取得的成功。

Like, you know why that you know, the he's he's conditioned with the fact that he's focused on other people succeeding from it, from his his part of your work.

你知道吧？

You know?

这让人感觉，网络就像许多隐喻和类比一样，可以用来思考领导力和人生。

It feels like there's so many metaphors and corollaries to networking as a way to think about leadership and and living life.

确实如此。

It really is.

天啊。

Oh, man.

我猜你们肯定有很多例子。

I bet you guys have all kinds of examples.

我们真的应该花时间去梳理一下生活与网络之间的对应关系，这很有意义。

We we it's a it's a good exercise to actually go through and create the corollary of parallelism between life and networks.

我在想，比如朋友的数量，邓巴数字，一个网络里最多能有多少个节点，才会开始变慢？

I'm thinking about just, like, how many friends like, Dunbar's number, like, how many notes can you have in a network before it starts to slow down?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

也许是一百五十个？

Maybe a 150?

天哪。

Oh, man.

好吧。

Okay.

不管怎样，我喜欢你思维活跃的样子。

Anyway, as I like that your mind's spinning.

我在想，你到底能有多少个？

I'm thinking, like, how many can you have?

我觉得肯定超过150个。

I think more than a 150 for sure.

我还在想，英特尔的‘Intel Inside’策略真是高明，当时没人做过这种事。

I also was thinking about Intel the whole Intel Inside move was such a clever way to break through that where, you know, no one's had no Intel.

所以他们到现在还贴着‘Intel Inside’的标签。

So they're just like, still have a sticker Intel Inside.

顺便说一下，Lip Bu 是我非常要好的朋友。

And by the way, they are you know, Lip Bu is is a very dear friend.

帕特·基辛格曾经是我在EMC时的导师。

Pat Gelsinger used to be my mentor at EMC.

所以，这两个人都对整个行业产生了深远的影响，当你开始思考他们时，他们确实都处于那种状态。

And so both those people that have had such a profound contribution to that industry in general, like, when you start thinking about them, they are very, very much on that on that mode.

如果你感觉跟每个人都像是朋友，我能理解你如何能聚集起这么一群非凡的人。

I could see how you pull together this insane collection of humans if you're just feels like you're just friends with everybody.

我觉得人生苦短，没必要不这么做，我只和我觉得是好人的人做朋友。

I feel like it's life's too short not to be, and I'm only friends with people that I feel are good human beings.

我尽量避免花时间在那些能量与我不合的人身上，不管他们多么成功，因为我觉得人生太短暂了。

Like, what I try not to do is I try to minimize my time no matter how successful they are with people whose energy I don't vibe with because I think life's too short.

你知道的。

You know?

在我看来，最让人反感的一件事是：我们每个人都有健康的自尊心。

And in my mind, one of the most off putting things is, look, all of us have a healthy ego.

有时候，自尊会以不安全感的形式表现出来，你必须确保自己有足够的自我觉察，能意识到当自尊开始以破坏性的方式影响你的行为时。

There are times when ego gets manifested with insecurity, and you have to make sure that you're at least self aware enough to know when your ego is starting to take over your behavior in a way that's counterproductive.

所有这些都很重要，但我认为特别重要的是，当你爱你身边的人时，生活会变得非常有趣。

And all of those things are super important, but what I think is extremely important is that you like, life is just fun to live when when you love the people you are around.

我能岔开一下讲个故事吗？我来告诉你，我母亲两年前半去世了，但在那之前，她在医院病重了整整八周。

Can I digress for a second in this one story that I've so I'll I'll tell you the story that was so my mother was you know, she passed away two and a half years ago, but she was extremely sick in the hospital for, like, eight weeks before she passed away?

我和我妈妈非常亲近。

And I was very close to my mom.

她是我的一切。

Like, she was my my everything.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且我是独生子，我的童年过得很艰难。

And and your only child, I grew up with a rough childhood.

我父亲是个高风险的骗子，就像伯尼·麦道夫那样。

I had to you know, my dad was a high stakes kind of con man like Bernie Madoff.

我不想沾上那一套。

I didn't wanna be any part of that.

所以我其实已经离开了印度，来到这里，还没见过他。

So I'd actually left India, come over here, hadn't gone I hadn't seen him.

所以他一直对我的妈妈很 abusive。

And so he was very abusive to my mom.

所以发生过很多这样的事情。

So, like, there was a bunch of that that had happened.

因此，我的童年早期非常艰难，我和她在这段时期建立了非常深厚的情感纽带。

And so we had had a very, you know, kind of difficult early childhood life for me, and her and I had bonded during that that time very, very you know, at a very deep level.

当她来到美国时，她一直想要有自己的房子，但其实住得离我很近。

And so when she came came to America, you know, we kind of she always wanted to have her own place, but she kind of lived very close by.

她在情感上和各方面都非常依赖我。

She was very dependent on me on you know, emotionally and in every way.

所以我几乎成了她的父母。

And so I had almost become a parent to her.

在最后的八周里，情况完全颠倒了。

And at the last eight weeks, things flipped.

而她又重新扮演起了母亲的角色。

And she was she became a parent again.

所以我们逐渐接近了她生命即将终结的时刻。

And so we were, you know, kind of we were getting to the point where she was ending her journey.

凌晨一点，我坐在医院她的病床边。

And I was sitting, like, one in the morning at the at the bedside by her in the hospital.

当时我就住在医院里，她睡着了，我却泪如雨下。

I was living in the hospital at the time, and she was sleeping, and I was just crying profusely.

她醒了过来，知道我为什么哭，因为她知道自己即将离世。

And she wakes up, and she knows why I'm crying because she's gonna be gone soon.

她看着我，莱尼，一脸困惑。

And she looks at me, Lenny, and she's, like, all perplexed.

她说：‘我根本不知道你这么爱我。’

And she's like, I had no idea that you loved me so much.

顺便说一句，这对我来说简直是最不可思议的话，因为我在心里想：‘妈妈，你在说什么啊？’

Now by the way, this is, like, the most abnormal thing for me to hear because I'm like, what are you talking about, mom?

我是说，你是我生命中最重要的几个人之一，我所做的一切都是为了确保我妈妈过得好。

Like, I, like, you're you're one of the most important people in my life, and I was like, everything that I did was to make sure that my mom was okay.

为什么她会有这样的感受呢？

Why did I why did it feel that way to her?

因为她不了解我的想法。

Because she didn't know how I was thinking.

这种‘别人并不知道你内心在想什么’的观念非常重要，我从中学到的最大教训就是：不要吝啬表达。

And that kind of notion of people don't know what's going on in your mind is so important that my biggest lesson from that was don't be stingy with words.

就连我母亲这样最了解我的人，都不知道我有多爱她。

Because even my mother that knows me inside and out didn't know how much I loved her.

在商业世界里，如果你不明确表达，别人根本不可能知道你的感受。

That there's no chance that people in the business world are gonna know how you feel if you're not explicit with them.

所以我现在对人非常坦率。

And so I'm actually very clear with people.

当我发现某人值得肯定时，我会明确告诉他们他们对我有多重要，因为我确实能从这种表达中获得很多能量。

When I find them and when I find them rewarding, I let them know how much they mean because I genuinely find a lot of energy coming out of that.

我们的朋友圈一直在不断扩大。

And we the circle of friends just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

我发现这真的是人生中一件特别有回报的事情。

And I've I've found that to be, like, a super rewarding thing in life.

你说得对。

And and you're right.

参加人工智能峰会的大多数人都是我亲密的朋友。

Most of the people that were at the AI summit are are dear friends.

你知道的吗？

You know?

这难道不是一种更好的生活方式吗？

And isn't that the just a better way to live life?

我想我们已经揭开了你成功的秘密之一：那就是明确表达你的感受，让他们看到你欣赏他们，清楚地让他们知道你重视他们，而很多人并不这么做。

I've I think we've uncovered one of the secrets of your success, which is just tell people how you feel and help them see that you appreciate them, make it clear that you appreciate them, that you value them, which is a lot of people don't do.

他们只是想当然地以为对方知道他们喜欢你。

They just kind of assume they know that, you know, that they like you.

别假装。

And don't make it fake.

别假装。

And don't make it fake.

别假装。

Don't make it fake.

你知道的？

You know?

如果你不爱一个人，就不要对她说你爱她。

If you don't love someone, don't tell them you love them.

这其实是我另外一点体会。

It's like that's the other thing that I have.

这太有趣了。

It's so interesting.

我们刚刚为我岳母做了一个小采访，是给我们儿子的，让他长大后能看。

I just we just did a little interview kind of thing with my mother-in-law meant for our son, just like for him to have when he's older.

他们只是采访了她，让她讲自己的故事，最后问她：有什么想对朱德（他儿子的名字）说的，希望他能从你身上学到的教训。

They just like interviewed her about her story and stuff, they asked her at the end of it, what's something you want Jude, which is his name, know, a lesson to learn from you.

就是，如果你爱一个人，就要尽可能多地告诉他们你爱他们。

And it's to just if you love someone, tell them you love them as much as you can.

是的。

Yeah.

这太对了。

That's so true.

你做这些事情时总是如此用心。

You're so intentional about the way in which you do these things.

我希望我也能这么做，现在想想，我确实应该现在就开始。

I wish I'd done, like, I should do that now now that I think about it.

比如，给我女儿录一个只属于她的播客，等她长大后才能听。

Like, you're a podcast for my daughter that's only for her when she gets older.

我会把这些发给你。

I'll send you these.

这个团体就是这样做的。

This group, they do this.

我觉得他们在湾区，但太了不起了。

I think they're in the Bay Area, but it's incredible.

这简直像一部完整的纪录片，他们会采访你，拍下你生活的一些片段，然后制作一部完整的纪录片。

It's, like, a whole documentary thing where they interview you, film all your life for a little bit, and then make a whole documentary.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

哇，真的啊。

Oh, wow.

我其实很想要这样的经历。

I'd love that actually.

是的。

Yes.

天啊。

Oh, man.

他们现在会获得大量业务。

They're gonna get a lot of business right now.

就是这样。

There you go.

让我

Let

最后，我想问你关于你个人经历的问题。

me end end with a question around just your journey.

如今，你领导着一家拥有九万名员工的公司。

So today, you lead product at a a 90,000 person company.

你管理着三万名员工。

You manage 30,000 people.

正如你所说，你从小在印度孟买长大，远离硅谷。

Like you said, you you grew up in in India and Bombay, very far outside Silicon Valley.

今天听到这些的人，很多都和你处境相似。

A lot of people hearing this today are kind of in a similar boat.

他们远远偏离了硅谷。

They're way outside of the valley.

他们可能根本不知道如何进入这个行业，也没有太多机会，但他们看到像你这样的人，就把这当成自己的梦想。

They're they're maybe don't have a lot of obvious way to break in to they don't have a lot of opportunity, and they see someone like you, and that's their dream.

对于现在处于这种境地的人，你有什么建议？

What would your advice be to someone in in that place right now?

你选择的平台以及你所解决的问题的质量，实际上决定了你成功之路的很大一部分。

The platform that you choose and the quality of problems that you pick to solve actually determine a lot of the path of success for you.

通常来说，难题更容易取得成功，因为越难的问题越能吸引优秀的人才来解决，而商业是一场团队运动。

And typically, like, problems have a higher likelihood of success because the harder problems are the ones that attract better people to that problem, and business is a team sport.

如果你能吸引人才来解决那些困难且重要的问题，你就能组建最优秀的团队。

And if you attract people to the problems that are hard and important enough to solve, then then you get the best team.

当你拥有最优秀的团队时，你成功的几率就会呈指数级增长。

And when you get the best team, your odds of winning just go up exponentially.

所以大多数人认为，我要去找一个足够简单的问题来解决。

So most people think I'm gonna go out and pick a easy enough problem to solve.

你不可能靠开一家柠檬水摊就吸引到最顶尖的团队。

And it's like, you don't get the best team attracted to you to start up a lemonade stand.

这是一份非常重要的工作，但可能并不是能吸引顶尖人才加入你的那件事。

Very important job, but that might not be the thing that actually gets the best team to come to you.

但如果你选择一个足够困难的问题去解决，你就能吸引到最顶尖的团队。

But if you actually pick a hard enough problem to solve, you'll get the best team to come.

所以这是第一点。

So that's one.

第二点，我认为生活中很多东西都是可以学习和教授的。

Number two, I'd say that you can teach and learn a lot of things in life.

我觉得饥饿感是学不会的，也无法被传授。

I don't think you can learn hunger, or you can't teach hunger.

所以找到你内心真正渴望的东西，并确保你努力去追求那个领域。

So find what you're intrinsically hungry about and make sure that you try to pursue that area.

这和对某件事的激情是不同的。

And that's different from passion about something.

在你做的每一件事中，你都必须明白一个规律：工作中有30%的事情是你根本不喜欢的。

It's like, in everything that you do in work, you have to just understand the formula that there's gonna be 30% of the stuff that you do at work that you're just gonna hate.

你得习惯那些你讨厌但又不得不做的事情。

And you have to get used to things that you hate that you have to do.

你知道的。

You know?

但你要找到真正让你渴望投入的事情，让你每天都想来上班，因为这份使命值得你付出所有的精力。

But for the but find something that you're really hungry about that makes you wanna come in to work every day because the mission is worth the expenditure of of energy that you're you're you're putting into it.

我来跟你讲个故事，我很久没去印度了。

And I'll leave you with a story which was, like, I'd I hadn't gone to India in a long time.

我离开印度后，就再也没有回去过。

When I left India, I didn't go back.

我1991年离开，直到2017年才真正意义上再次回去。

I left in '91, and I hadn't gone back in any kind of meaningful way until 2017.

因为童年经历的种种创伤，不知为何，我一直没回去。

You know, because of all the trauma and childhood, I was like, you know, I was, for whatever reason, I hadn't gone back.

我带着女儿去了阿格拉参观泰姬陵，我们去了那里。

I I took my daughter, we went to Agra to see the Taj Mahal, and we went there.

那里有个导游。

And there was this tour guide.

他叫拉吉。

His name was Raj.

这位导游对他的产品——泰姬陵游览——了解得非常透彻。

And this tour guide was like, he understood so much about the product that he was selling, which was the tour of the Taj Mahal.

我不知道他是不是在编故事，但听起来特别精彩，而且他看起来真的非常投入。

I don't know if he was making this shit up or not, but it sounded really good, and he seemed like he was kind of really on it.

但当我们往回走的时候，周围都是人，他却开始跟不同的人攀谈，还切换成各种语言。

But when we were walking back, it's all these people, and he would just start talking to them, and he'd bust out in different languages.

他跟一个人说德语，跟另一个人说法语，再跟一个人说西班牙语，又跟一个人说印地语，你懂的？

He'd talk to someone in German, talk to someone in French, someone in Spanish, someone in Hindi, someone in you know?

然后他突然用中文说了几句，那一刻我有点愣住了。

And at some point in time in Mandarin, and so at some point in time, I kinda stumped.

老兄，你会说几种语言？

Dude, how many languages do you speak?

他回答说：哦，我会说大概十二种、十四种，或者一些荒谬的数字。

He's like, oh, I speak, like, I don't know, 12 or 14 or some ridiculous number.

但我每年都会努力学一门新语言。

But I try to learn a new language every year.

我问他：为什么呢？

I'm like, oh, why is that?

他说：我只是想尊重来这里的人，不假设他们会说我知道的语言。

And he goes, well, I just wanna honor the people that come here and not be presumptuous that they will speak in a language that I know.

我想用他们的语言交流。

I wanna speak in their language.

我当时在Box公司工作，心里想着。

And I'm thinking to myself, I was at Box at the time.

我觉得这个人比管理层的每个人都聪明，可能也和我们所有的销售员一样聪明，但他每天只赚10美元。

I'm like, this guy is smarter than every person on the executive team and probably just as smart as every salesperson we have, but he's making $10 a day.

我们所有人都享受着如此精彩的生活，这是因为我们能接触到这个平台，而他却不能。

And all of us are enjoying this amazing life, and it's because we have access to a platform and he doesn't.

所以当人们开始混淆生活，认为我所拥有的一切都源于我卓越的能力时，我总会对此提出质疑，因为这件事中充满了运气。

So when people start confusing life thinking that everything that I've earned is because of my amazing abilities, I always kinda question that because there's a lot of luck in this thing.

但当运气来临时，一定要做好充分准备去抓住它，并确保你选择的平台能真正为你提供跳板，因为平台真的很重要。

But when luck does present itself, be extremely prepared to capitalize on it and make sure that you pick the platform that can actually give you that springboard because platforms really matter.

比如，我拥有美国的教育平台、科技行业的优势、优秀的朋友和导师，所有这些都创造了复利价值。

And if we like, I had the platform and benefit of America of education, of of being in in tech, of having great friends and mentors, All of those things created compounding value.

对吧？

Right?

但我和你一样，是有意识地去寻找这些平台的。

But you we I intentionally sought out those platforms.

去寻找平台吧。

Seek out the platform.

要极度专注地做好准备，别变得思想懒惰。

Be obsessed about being extremely prepared, and don't be intellectually lazy.

懒惰不是一种好品质。

Laziness is not a good trait.

所以要做必要的准备。

So do the preparation that's needed.

然后，在你努力的过程中，确保围绕你建立一个关心你成功的人际圈，我认为这样生活会更有趣，而不是独自一人像孤狼一样行动。

And then, you know, just make sure that during that time period that you're doing, if you build a community around you of people that are vested in your success, I think it's just is just a more fun way to live it rather than being the lone wolf that's going out by themselves.

因此，我总是觉得，你要学会表达和沟通，不要把整个世界的负担都扛在自己肩上，而是要与身边的人分担。

And that's why I always feel like making sure that you are expressive and communicative and don't try to carry the entire world's burden on your shoulders, but actually share it with people with you.

那些你与之分享的人，其实很感激你愿意与他们分担。

The people that you share it with actually appreciate that you're sharing it with them.

世界上大多数人都乐于助人。

And most people in the world love to help.

所以，去寻求帮助吧，但要确保这种帮助不是交易性的。

So ask for the help, but make sure that that help is not transactional.

不要只在你需要帮助的时候才去找他们。

And don't just go to them when you need something.