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如果你把AI产品的第一个时代看作是聊天，第二个时代是这些产品与代理协作，那么可能即将到来的第三个时代就是，你如何与一个能和你一起完成事情的持久同事合作。
If you think about the first era of AI products as chat, the second era of these products working with agents, that third era that might come soon is how do you work with a persistent coworker who is able to get things done with you.
有一种观点认为，AI的能力和我们实际用它做的事情之间存在差距。
There's this idea of the overhang of what AI is capable of and what we're actually doing with it.
很难预测未来会出现什么。
So hard to understand what is going to emerge in the future.
如果你基于当前模型的能力来构建，你会失败。
You fail if you build for where the models are now.
如果你基于你认为一年后模型会达到的水平来构建，你也会失败。
You fail if you build for where you think the models will be in a year.
这两种结果都是错误的。
Both outcomes are equally wrong.
唯一正确的构建方式是提前两到三个
Only way to build is two to three
月。
months.
作为产品经理，在这个领域里，你最需要适应和调整的是什么？
What have you had to most adapt to and adjust in how you operate as a PM in this world?
多产出、多实践，远比纸上谈兵或空谈理论重要得多。
Being prolific and empirical is way more important than being academic or theoretical.
与其写一大堆长篇大论的分析文档，不如想办法尽快做出一个能试、能拿去给用户测试的东西。
Rather than writing out some long reasoning doc, instead it's like, how do I get to something I can try out and test with users as fast as possible?
感觉我们不仅能够更有野心，而且几乎必须更有野心，这对很多人来说并不自然。
It feels like not only are we able to be more ambitious, we almost need to be more ambitious, which is not natural for a lot of people.
提升别人的野心，或者提醒他们这里有什么可能性，是产品经理角色中很重要的一部分。
Elevating others' ambitions or reminding them of what's possible here is a huge part of the product management role.
我很好奇，在OpenAI工作，最让你意外的是什么？
I'm curious what's most surprised you about what it's actually like to work at OpenAI.
我进公司之前，以为这里会藏着什么OpenAI的秘密战略宝库。
I came into the company expecting that there was a treasure trove of OpenAI secret strategy.
但实际上，OpenAI是开放的。
And actually, OpenAI is open.
今天我的嘉宾是Tara Seshan。
Today, my guest is Tara Seshan.
Tara在OpenAI负责Codex和ChatGPT的产品工作，我认为这是目前增长最快、对知识工作者来说最重要的AI产品。
Tara leads product for both Codex and ChatGPT work at OpenAI and believe this is the fastest growing and arguably most important AI product for knowledge workers today.
Tara和Andrew Ambrosino一起工作，Andrew最近也来过我们的播客。
Tara works alongside Andrew Ambrosino, who was a recent podcast guest.
他是她的引擎经理。
He's her engine manager.
在加入OpenAI之前，Tara在Stripe工作了六年，是最早的五位产品经理之一。
Prior to OpenAI, Tara spent six years at Stripe, where she joined as one of the first five product managers.
在那几年里，她多次被评为整个Stripe组织中的前三名员工。
And for many of those years, she was named one of the top three Stripes across the entire organization of Stripe.
她还在Watershed领导过产品工作，也是一位创始人和Thiel Fellow。
She also led product at Watershed, was a founder and a Thiel Fellow.
最重要的是，Tara是Lenny's newsletter的三位研究员之一，这是我几年前发起的一个项目，旨在发掘一些最出色的新兴产品领导者。
And most importantly of all, Tara was one of the three Lenny's newsletter fellows, which is a program that I ran a few years ago to highlight some of the most amazing up and coming product leaders.
我非常高兴看到塔拉在这个极其重要且影响深远的岗位上。
I am so excited to see Tara in this new incredibly important and impactful role.
在我们开始之前，别忘了去 Lenny 的 productpass.com 看看，那里有一整年免费的最热门、设计最精美的 AI 产品，只对 Lenny 的新闻通讯订阅者开放。
Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's productpass.com for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers.
那么，接下来有请塔拉·塞尚。
With that, I bring you Tara Seshan.
塔拉，非常感谢你来做客，欢迎来到播客。
Tara, thank you so much for being here, welcome to the podcast.
谢谢你，莱尼。
Thank you, Lenny.
我很高兴能来这里。
I'm so glad to be here.
见到你真好。
It's so nice to see you.
我更高兴。
I'm even more glad.
你在OpenAI工作差不多一年了，这在大多数地方算是很短的时间。
So you've been at OpenAI for just about a year now, which in most places would be a very short amount of time.
但在AI领域，这就像一辈子那么长。
In AI time, that's like a lifetime.
对。
Yes.
我想你加入OpenAI的时候，应该对在前沿实验室工作是什么样子有所预期。
I imagine when you joined OpenAI, you had a sense of what it was gonna be like to work at a frontier lab.
我很好奇，真正在OpenAI工作后，最让你意外的是什么？最好有好的也有不好的。
I'm curious what's most surprised you about what it's actually like to work at OpenAI, and ideally both good and bad stuff.
在OpenAI工作的很多事情对我来说都很熟悉。
So many things about working at OpenAI felt familiar to me.
因为我在其他地方工作过，那些地方也是高增长、人才济济、高强度、超速扩张的模式。
Because I had worked at other places that were, you know, high growth, high talent, high intensity, hyperscaling mode places before.
所以有些东西，比如同事很棒或者紧迫感很强，都让我觉得很熟悉。
And so some of the things like, oh, colleagues are so awesome or the urgency is really high, felt very familiar.
对我来说最让我惊讶的是，我之前工作过的很多公司，实际上所有我工作过的公司，都是创始人主导的。
The part to me that actually felt the most surprising is that many companies I've worked for, in fact, all the companies I've worked for in the past have been founder led.
而OpenAI实际上也是创始人主导的。
And OpenAI is actually founders led.
也就是说，公司里的每个人，尤其是在自己的领域里，本质上都某种程度上算是创始人。
Which is that everyone inside the company, especially in their area, is in essence kind of a founder to some extent.
在OpenAI，自上而下的指示比我以前工作过的地方要少得多。
The level of like top down direction at OpenAI is extremely limited relative to places I've worked for prior.
所以我觉得我刚到公司的时候，这既让人高兴，又因为我之前有过创业的经历。
And so I think when I first got to the company that was both delight delightful and that I had come from like a founding journey before.
我当时就想，太好了，我可以继续感觉自己像是这个产品领域或这个团队的创始人。
And I was like, yes, I can continue to feel like the founder of this product area or this team.
而且我和市场之间的距离非常非常近。
And the distance between me and the market is very, very thin.
而在一些大公司里，你往往会感觉不到用户的需求，或者感觉不到市场的需求。
And sometimes at a larger company feel insulated from what users want or feel insulated from like what the market demands.
但在OpenAI，你完全不会这样。
But actually at OpenAI that you do not at all.
你会像创始人一样，竭尽全力让你的产品实现产品市场契合。
You are doing everything it takes to get product market fit for your product akin to how a founder might.
但与此相反，或者说更让我惊讶的是，我进公司时以为会有一大堆OpenAI的秘密战略等着我去了解，就像在之前的公司，你一进去就会想，哦，这就是支付领域的圣经。
But the counter to this is that, or maybe the more surprising side of this is I came into the company expecting that there was a treasure trove of like OpenAI secret strategy that I would be able to understand akin to how at past companies you come in and you're like, oh yes, this is like the payments bible.
这就是我们对支付和运营的思考方式。
And this is how we think about, payments and operations.
但实际上OpenAI是开放的。
And actually OpenAI is open.
所有关于世界应该是什么样子、产品应该怎么打造、模型应该怎么运作的想法，
Like every sort of thought that exists in terms of this is how world should look like, or this is how products should be built, or this is how the model should operate.
都会很快成为公开产品的一部分，或者成为公开宣传的一部分。
Very, very quickly becomes a part of the public product or a part of like the public messaging.
所以对我来说，这既是一个巨大的惊喜，也彻底改变了我的工作方式。
And so that to me was incredibly, both positively surprising and just like a change in my operating mode for sure.
这说明并没有一个藏着AGI的秘密房间，里面有个万能计划，什么答案都有。
Showing us there's not like the secret room with AGI running there with the master plan that has all the answers.
或者至少我肯定不在那个房间里。
Or at least I'm not in that room for sure.
但我觉得真正让我受鼓舞的是，OpenAI做的很多事情很快就变成了用户能在产品里直接感受到的东西，这个循环比我见过的任何地方都要快。
But, I I think the the piece that is really inspiring to me is that so much of what OpenAI does immediately becomes something that users can touch and feel in the product, and that cycle is faster than anywhere else I've seen.
本期节目由我们本季的赞助商WorkOS提供。
This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS.
OpenAI、Anthropic、Kurosar、Replit、Sierra、Clay，还有几百家成功的公司，它们有什么共同点？
What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Kurosar, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common?
它们都靠WorkOS驱动。
They are all powered by WorkOS.
如果你在为企业打造产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志这些大公司要求的功能有多痛苦。
If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies.
WorkOS把这些阻碍交易的难题变成了即插即用的API，它有一个专为B2B SaaS打造的现代开发者平台。
WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for b to b SaaS.
说实话，我投资的所有初创公司，一旦开始向高端市场拓展，最后都会用上 WorkOS。
Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS.
那是因为他们是最好的。
And that's because they are the best.
无论你是种子阶段的初创公司，想拿下第一个企业客户，还是独角兽公司，正在全球扩张，WorkOS 都是让你快速达到企业级标准、解锁增长的最快途径。
Whether you are a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth.
它基本上就是企业功能领域的 Stripe。
It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.
访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接去他们的 Slack 频道，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。
Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions.
WorkOS 让你通过好用的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验，更快地构建产品。
WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.
今天就访问 workos.com，让你的应用达到企业级标准。
Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.
你在很多不同的地方做过产品经理，而且长期担任产品管理领导角色。
You've been a PM at a lot of different places, a long time PM leader.
在这个新世界里，你会失去什么？
What do you lose in this new world?
当市场比较静态或者变化比较慢的时候，你就有机会去做一些宏观的战略规划，因为事情更可预测。
When a market is more static or a market is more slow moving, you have the chance to actually, like, do some grand strategy ask work because it's more predictable.
或者你至少能搞清楚所有的环节。
Or you can at least like understand all of the pieces.
比如说，支付行业在一定程度上确实是个动态市场，但它也是个成熟的市场。
Like as an example, payments is a certainly a dynamic market to some extent, but it's also an established market.
你可以说，如果我下这个赌注，我的竞争对手可能会下另一个赌注，或者你可以从基本原理出发，非常严谨地推演所有可能的下一步行动。
And you're able to say, yes, if like I take this bet, my competitor might take this other bet or a reason from first principles very rigorously through what all the next actions might be.
事实上，这个市场的性质就要求你必须这么做。
And in fact, the nature of that market mandates that you do that.
赢家会比其他人思考得更严谨。
Like winners will think more rigorously than everybody else.
如果你思考不严谨，就会显得很粗心，因为你做的很多决定本来是可以预见的。
And if you aren't thinking rigorously, it shows up as sort of like carelessness because a lot of those decisions that you made could have been predicted.
但在这个市场里，真的很难预测未来会出现什么。
But in this market, it's so hard to understand like what is going to emerge in the future.
一切都是突然冒出来的。
It's very emergent.
变化非常快。
It's very fast changing.
真的非常动态。
It's really dynamic.
最重要的是，紧跟研究进展非常非常重要。
And most importantly, it's like very, very important to stay tied to the research.
所以，实际上，多产出、多实践比追求学术或理论要重要得多。
And so actually being prolific and being more like empirical is way more important than being like maybe more academic or theoretical.
我觉得我以前工作过的很多公司都是非常学术和理论化的地方。
And I think lots of the past companies I've worked at have been very academic and theoretical places.
从写那种长篇推理文档，几乎像博士论文一样，去规划未来一段时间该怎么做，到现在的转变，确实是个很大的变化。
And it was a real switch to go from rather than writing out some like long reasoning doc, almost like a PhD thesis of what I think should be the plan for the next like n amount of time.
相反，关键是怎么能尽快做出一个可以试用、可以跟用户测试的东西。
Instead it's like, how do I get to something I can try out and test with users as fast as possible?
所以，是的，从理论转向实证一开始确实让我很不适应。
And so, yeah, that switch from theoretical to empirical felt very jarring at first.
我当时就想，哦，我是不是没尽到应有的责任？
I was like, oh, am I not doing my due diligence here?
我是不是想得不够周全？
Am I not being thoughtful enough?
难道不应该把所有事情都考虑得非常严谨吗？
Like, shouldn't I be like thinking through all of this in a ton of rigor?
但实际上，你必须去尝试，去尽可能多地学习。
But actually, you gotta you gotta try stuff and learn as much as possible.
这意味着，你需要做的思考就是尽可能明确你的核心假设是什么。
And what that means is the thinking you need to do is being as pointed as possible about what your core hypothesis is.
而定义这个假设是最重要的事情。
And that hypothesis definition is the most important thing.
就像，用Shishir Mehrotra的话说，真正核心的问题是什么。
Like what is actually, to use the, Shishir Mehrotra phrase like the eigen question.
那个最具体、最重要、需要测试的东西是什么？
What is like that specific most important thing to test?
其他一切，你构思的任何宏伟战略，都不重要。
And everything else, like any other grand strategy you concoct is not relevant.
我很想多听听这个，因为真的很有意思，这几乎是产品经理角色中不变的部分。
I'd love to hear more about that because that's really interesting as almost like here's the thing of the PM role that is not changing.
变化的东西太多了。
So much is changing.
世界在变。
The world is changing.
但仍有这一部分，甚至变得更加重要。
But like there's still this piece that is even more important.
请多谈谈，你觉得人们具体需要更关注什么。
Speak more to that of what specifically that you think people need to focus more on.
对。
Yeah.
产品经理这个角色有很多外在的东西，比如按时执行、写各种文档和演示文稿等等。
There were so many trappings around the PM role of like, you know, running, like execution on time and writing all these specific docs and presentations, etcetera.
但核心始终是：关于你的产品，你需要问的最关键的问题是什么？
But the core of it has always been about what is like the most essential question you need to ask about your product?
也就是什么决定了你的产品能不能成功？
Like what is the thing that will determine whether your product works or doesn't work?
你怎么去测试它？
How do you test that?
你怎么看结果？
How do you look at the results?
然后怎么把结果反馈到循环里，去完善你的假设，再重新测试？
And how do you feed that back into a loop of like refining your hypothesis and running it again?
这才是产品经理真正的工作。
Like that that truly has always been the PM job.
这当然包括了解用户、了解市场、了解你正在构建的实际技术，把这三者结合起来，形成尽可能精准的假设，然后让测试尽可能快速有效。
And that involves of course, like trying to understand users, trying to understand the market, trying to understand the actual technology you're building, pulling those three things together to make the most sharp hypothesis you can, and then making the test as fast and effective as possible.
而且我认为这不仅没有改变，反而成了公司里最重要的一项能力。
And I think that is not only not changed, but it's become the most important thing at the company to be able to do.
比如工程经理们都在这么想。
Like EMs are like thinking this way.
工程师们也在这么想。
Engineers are thinking this way.
数据科学家们也在这么想。
Like data scientists are thinking this way.
设计师们也在这么想。
Designers are thinking this way.
基本上每个人都把精力集中在这个非常关键的问题定义和测试循环上。
Like everyone is sort of moved to focus their efforts on this really, really important like problem definition and testing loop.
就是我们到底在做什么，以及怎么知道它有没有效果。
Like what are we actually doing and how do we know if it's working thing?
从产品经理的角度来看，这其实挺好的，因为产品经理一直都很注重把这部分工作做好。
And from a PM standpoint, like it's great because PMs have always been really focused on trying to get that stuff right.
这本来就是这份工作的核心所在。
That has always been the core of the job.
而实际上，很多其他那些形式上的东西都已经慢慢淡化了。
And actually many of the other just trappings of the job have like fallen away.
但如何把这些关键点做对，始终是每个项目都要牢牢抓住的重点。
And that remains like the key thing to get right every time.
你提到了这个循环的概念。
You mentioned this idea of a loop.
现在大家讨论得很多。
And there's a lot of talk these days.
比如前几周在推特上，循环这个话题特别火，具体多久我也记不清了。
Like, loops were so hot, I don't know, few weeks ago on Twitter.
感觉它依然是知识工作者们广泛讨论的一个话题。
And it feels like it continues to be a topic of discussion for knowledge work broadly.
我理解的循环，基本上就是，AI，成功的样子是这样的。
And the way I understand a loop, essentially, AI, here's what success looks like.
去构建，去摸索，直到你达成目标。
Go off and build and figure it out until you achieve success.
你怎么看这个循环的概念，从软件工程扩展到产品管理，再到所有知识工作？
How do you think about just this idea of loops expanding from just software engineering to product management to all knowledge work?
你觉得这会成为趋势吗？
Do you think that's gonna be a thing?
我确实认为，未来的工作会越来越像掌舵而不是划桨，也就是说，会有一些智能体可以和你协作，帮你完成很多划桨的工作，而你的角色越来越变成把船导向正确的方向，朝着正确的方向前进。
I do think that increasingly the future of work will look more like steering than rowing in the sense that there will be agents that you'll you'll be able to work with that do a lot of the rowing and your role increasingly becomes steering the ship in the right direction and pointing it in the right direction.
而且，我觉得这个掌舵的层次会越来越高。
And to that point, I think that that steering might grow higher and higher and higher level.
以前掌舵是在写一行代码、按一下Tab键这个层面。
The steering used to be at the level of, wrote this line of code, press tab.
现在变成了，哦等等，我在指挥一个更全面的东西，可能到了目标层面，甚至更高的层面。
To, oh wait, now I'm directing something a little bit more comprehensive to maybe the goal level, maybe to an even higher level.
我觉得这种掌控会继续往更高的抽象层次走。
I think the steering will continue to maybe go up layers of abstraction.
但归根结底，我觉得还是需要人来决定方向，给出反馈和补充数据。
But ultimately, I think it's still not a person to be able to find like which direction are we pointing this in and given feedback and additional data.
下一步我想把这个东西带到哪里去？
Where do I want to take this thing next?
掌控的一部分当然取决于数据告诉你的信息，但很大一部分是做出有主见的决策。
Some of steering I think is about certainly like what the data tells you, but a lot of it is about making opinionated call.
我觉得有时候我们低估了直觉的力量，甚至是对未来的一种积极设想。
I think sometimes that we underrate like that power of like intuition or even sort of like positive determinism of what we want the future to be like.
比如想象一下，我希望产品长这样。
Like picturing, hey, I would like the product to look this way.
不是因为反方向不可行，而是因为我希望世界朝着我推动的方向发展。
Not because the converse is not an equally viable strategy, but because I would like the world to look like the direction that I would I'm pushing it in.
而这一点，我觉得至少目前来看，还是需要人来做出判断。
And that I think will always remain a opinion at least right now that is like required from a person.
所以我觉得这种循环真的很棒。
And so I think that loops are awesome.
让代理在越来越大的循环里运行，帮你做越来越多的划船工作，这非常好。
Running, like, running agents in increasingly increasingly larger loops where they're doing more and more of that rowing for you is great.
但现在，你真的还是需要去掌舵。
But right now, like, you really still need to to steer.
而且我觉得工作也会变成这样：你和一群人一起，对一组代理进行掌舵，大家共同协作。
And I think work will also look like steering with other people over a group of agents that you guys work with together.
把其他队友拉进来，参与到你和代理之间的这种互动中——代理负责划船，你负责掌舵——这也会非常有价值。
Bringing in other teammates into that, like, interaction between you and the agent where it's rowing and you're steering feels also incredibly valuable.
这个描述方式真有意思。
That's such an interesting way of describing it.
这里我想到两点。
There's also like there's two thoughts here that come up.
第一，如果每个人都有同样的工具，那么让你脱颖而出的，就是人本身，也就是这个人。
One is, if everybody has access to the same tools, the thing that will separate you is this is the is human, the person basically.
不然的话，我们大家最后都会做出一样的东西。
Otherwise, we're all just gonna be building the same thing.
你可以用它。
You could use it.
每个人都可以问，我们怎么赢？
You could everyone could be asking how do we win?
我们该怎么做？
What do we do?
然后，几乎不公平的优势，其实就是人的大脑。
And then the thing that almost the unfair advantage almost is the human brain.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这让我想起很多时尚的东西，某种程度上。
I I think it it reminds me a lot of fashion actually in in some ways.
就像确实有一些功能性的衣服，谁都能穿，也能把事儿办了。
Like there are certainly functional clothes that everybody can wear and gets gets the job done.
但穿什么，至少对我来说，更多是想表达我的个性，或者我想向世界展示什么。
But so much about what you wear at least or how I think about what I wear is about what statement I want to make about my individuality or how I wanna reflect to the rest of the world.
而让它有趣的地方，很大程度上在于它跟别人的表达形成对比。
And a lot of what makes that compelling is how it contrasts with other people's expression.
比如我做的这件衬衫之所以有意义，是因为它可能跟别人穿的不一样，或者跟某些群体穿的不一样，或者表达了我属于哪个群体之类的。
Like the shirt I make makes a statement only because it is maybe different than what everybody else is doing or different than some cohort of people are doing or make a statement about my group membership or something of that kind.
我觉得我们做的很多产品也很有这种个性化和艺术感。
And I think a lot of the products that we build feel similarly opinionated and artistic.
帕特里克·科利森说过一句很棒的话，或者也可能是约翰·科利森说的，关于软件，他说软件不像房地产。
Like Patrick Collison has this really nice statement or maybe it was John Collison has this really nice statement about software, which is that software is not like real estate.
不是投钱进去就能得到回报。
You don't like put money in and get value out.
它更像拍电影，你可以往电影里投很多钱，但这并不能保证电影成功或者好看。
It is a little bit more like filmmaking where you can put a lot of money into a film, but that doesn't guarantee that the film is successful or good.
它需要一些导演的个人表达，或者某种独特的见解和艺术性在里面。
There is some like auteur statement or is some opinionation and artistry that goes along with it.
我觉得这取决于你或者你的团队对你的产品有没有什么有趣的观点要表达。
And I think that relies on you having something interesting to say or your team having something interesting to say about your product.
有件事是Marty Cagan特别强调的，就是当你对某个产品或功能有个想法时，这个想法很少会最终成为现实，你需要经历一个完整的过程去搞清楚它到底应该是什么。感觉你说的就是这个意思，作为人，你需要经历这个过程去理解它真正的样子以及人们真正想要什么。
There's something, Marty Cagan is big on, which is this idea that when you have an idea for a product or a feature, rarely is that idea the thing that ends up being, there is this whole process you go through to kind of figure out what the hell actually it should be and it feels like thatis kind of what youire saying here is like you need to go through that process as a human to understand what it really is and what people actually want.
从来不会是直接说，好的。
Never Itis gonna be like, okay.
明白了。
Got it.
去做这个东西吧。
Go build this thing.
我一开始就懂了。
I got it from the beginning.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
当然。
For sure.
而且这个循环，这些循环正在变得越来越快，越来越快。
And that loop those loops are moving faster and faster and faster.
所以，你形成这些直觉的能力，获取形成这些直觉所需信息的能力，然后利用这些信息，与人和智能体一起付诸行动的能力，就是关键所在。
And so your ability to, like, form those intuitions, get the information you need to form those intuitions, and then use that with people and agents to put that into action is is the key.
我很好奇，你觉得我们作为知识工作者，接下来的工作方式会有什么大的转变？
I'm curious what you think the next shift will be in how we work just broadly as knowledge workers.
感觉你不仅能用上最先进的工具，这些工具是别人没有的，而且你身边还围绕着世界上最拥抱AI、最前沿的人。
It feels like not only do you have access to the most advanced tools that some people that other people don't get, also you work around the most AI pill, AI forward people in the world.
你觉得在接下来的三到六个月里，大家内部是怎么用这些AI工具的，哪些方式会变成我们更普遍的工作方式？
How are people working internally that you think will become kind of a more normal way, we all work, using these AI tools in the next, I don't know, three to six months?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这有两个方面。
I think there's two aspects to this.
一个方面是继续在越来越高的抽象层面上与智能体合作。
One is continuing to work with agents at higher and higher levels of abstraction.
就是让智能体为你独立完成越来越多的事情，你过来提供方向，然后让它继续干活。
So letting the agent do more and more for you independently, coming in, providing that steering, and then letting the agent continue to cook.
就像让智能体自己发挥，在更高的抽象层面上提供细节，这感觉像是人们越来越倾向于把智能体看作持久的、像队友一样的、像同事一样的存在，你可以像和团队里的同事合作那样和它们合作，也就是它们做一大堆工作。
Like let the agent cook and provide details at higher and orders of abstraction feels like the way people are increasingly thinking about agents that are persistent, that feel like teammates, that feel like coworkers, where you can work with them the way I might work with someone on my team, which is they do a whole bunch of work.
我提供意见，然后它们再继续干活。
I provide input and then they do work again.
我们按不同的节奏同步，看看彼此的进展，然后提供越来越多的反馈。
And we sync up at different cadences, look at each other's in progress work and provide more and more feedback.
感觉这种同事模式确实是未来的趋势。
It feels like that coworker model is the way that things are certainly going.
这对我们来说是一种更自然的与智能体合作的方式。
Feels like a much more natural interface for us to be able to work with agents.
所以我们在内部已经看到了很多这样的情况。
So we already see a lot of that internally as well.
第二点是，到目前为止，我和智能体的大部分合作都是一对一的。
The second is that a lot of my work with agents thus far has been one on one.
我和我的智能体一起工作。
I work with my agent.
它可能会派生出一些子智能体来完成某些任务，但基本上就是我和我的智能体在合作。
Maybe it spawns some sub agents to get some tasks done but it's me and my agent together.
而这可能和我同事们跟他们的智能体做的事情是脱节的。
And that is potentially divorced from what my colleagues are doing with their agents.
所以有一段时间，我们内部每个人都在Slack上互相发他们的Codex线程截图。
And so there was a time where everyone internally was just like sending their Codex threads screenshots of their Codex threads to each other on Slack.
然后我们就说，好吧，我想跟你分享我是怎么得出这个数字的。
And we're like, okay, well I wanted to share with you how I got to this number.
这就是我得出这个数字的方法。
Here's how I got to this number.
这是我做的一个截图。
Here's a screenshot of what I did.
但这也不是最自然的协作方式。
But that's also not quite the most natural way for someone to collaborate together.
所以，随着越来越多的工作由我们的智能体完成，我们难道不应该能一起用智能体完成工作吗？
And so as more and more work gets done with our agents, shouldn't we be able to get work done with our agents together?
那么，实现这一目标最自然的界面是什么呢？
And what is the most natural interface to make that happen?
这些就是我们正在思考的一些问题。
And those are some the things that we're we're thinking about.
我想到的是聊天。
Chat is what I'm picturing.
这太有道理了。
That makes so much sense.
就像，好吧。
It's like, okay.
这是塔拉的智能体。
Here's Tara's agent.
这是我的智能体。
Here's my agent.
她做了一些分析工作。
She did some work on some analysis.
我会说，嘿。
I'd be, hey.
我的智能体，Lenny的智能体。
My agent Lenny's agent.
去检查一下，确保这是靠谱的，并且符合我对世界的看法。
Go check and make sure this is legit and connects to the way I think about the world.
理想情况下，工作就像一款多人游戏，我们所有人一起完成任务，指挥我们的智能体，而智能体则继续承担越来越多的那些划桨式的战术任务。
Ideally, work feels like a multiplayer game where all of us together are getting stuff done, steering our agents as our agents continue to take care of more and more of those, like, rowing tactical tasks.
有趣的是，这只是一个缓慢的信任和意识提升的过程，让我们意识到工作可以这样进行。
It's interesting how it's just been this, like, slow progression of trust and just awareness that this can be how we work.
就像这样，好吧，去工作更长时间，你可以承担更多。
Just this like, okay, go work for longer, you can take on more.
就是那种感觉，大家一直在讨论慢速起飞和快速起飞的情景，每个人都担心AI快速起飞，变得太聪明，然后我们就麻烦大了。
It's just, like you feel, there's been this talk of the slow takeoff, the fast takeoff scenarios, and everyone's afraid of this fast AI takeoff where it's way too smart and now we're in big trouble.
感觉我们现在更像是慢速起飞的情景，这挺好的，就是慢慢地迭代。
It feels very much like we're on the slow takeoff scenario, which is good, where it's just like slowly iterating.
虽然感觉也不是特别慢，但至少我们不是面对一个智商300的AI，对吧。
It doesn't feel that slow, but in a sense, you know, we're not like to some 300 IQ AI, like, you know.
我是说，它们确实非常聪明，但我觉得很多让我们能和代理一起工作，或者让代理处理越来越高层级抽象任务的事情，确实和它们的智能有关，比如它们执行长期任务的能力，以及能坚持多久。
I mean, the are incredibly smart, but I think a lot of the things that have enabled us to then work with our agents together or have the agents take care of higher and higher order abstraction things certainly are about the intelligence, their ability to perform long running tasks and how long they can stay on tasks.
但同时也有些非常基础、实际的技术细节，让这一切成为可能。
But also actually there are very meat and potatoes tactical things that make this possible.
比如本地运行的代理真的很方便，因为它们能访问你机器上的所有数据。
Like agents working locally are really convenient because they have access to all the data that's on your machine.
要让代理在云端成功运行，你得搭建大量的云基础设施才行。
To make an agent successful in the cloud, there is a ton of cloud infrastructure that you have to build to make that possible.
还有对系统的访问权限之类的。
And just like access to your systems.
比如，智能体怎么才能访问那些存有你所有数据的第三方系统呢？
Like how can agents talk to all these third party systems that have all of your data?
就像你雇了一个同事，把他锁在房间里，不让他用谷歌文档、Slack和公司数据库，那他对你也没什么用。
Just like a colleague who you hire, who you like lock into a room, never give access to like Google Docs and Slack and the company database would not be that useful to you.
同样，一个被隔离的云端智能体也不会那么有效。
Similarly, like a cloud agent that is similarly isolated will not be that effective.
所以，要让这些智能体真正有用，实现那些未来场景，很大程度上确实取决于智能水平。
And so a huge part of making these agents useful and achieving some of these futures are on the intelligence side certainly.
但很多也真的很实际，比如数据访问、云基础设施和可靠性这些方面，虽然听起来比那些宏大的智能问题要平淡得多，但在某些方面对最终效果同样重要。
But a lot of it is also just really tactical, like data access, like cloud infrastructure and reliability pieces that feel, yeah, they feel much more prosaic than some of the broader intelligence questions, but matter in some ways just as much for land effectiveness.
这让我想到这个播客里经常提到的另一个词——野心。
This touches on something else that has been coming up a bunch on this podcast, this word ambition.
我知道你在这方面也想了很多。
I know you think a lot about this too.
感觉我们不仅因为有了这些AI工具而能更有野心，而且几乎必须更有野心，这对很多人来说并不自然，因为现在每个人都能轻松完成那些简单的事情。
It feels like not only are we able to be more ambitious because of these AI tools, we almost need to be more ambitious, which is not natural for a lot of people, because everybody can now do all these easy things really easily.
简单的事情超级简单。
Like, easy stuff is super easy.
难的事情也变得容易了。
The hard stuff is easy.
现在，区分人和公司的，就是他们能有多大的野心。
And the thing that separates people now and companies now is just how ambitious they can be.
聊聊当我提到这种需求，以及这种野心需求的涌现时，你会想到什么。
Talk about what comes up when I talk about the the need and the kind of the emergence of this need for ambition.
对，我觉得那些最擅长用AI工具的人，不只是用它来自动化那些重复性的任务，而是用它来扩展自己能力范围。
Yeah, I think the people that we see who are most effective at using AI tools don't simply use it to automate rote tasks, but use it to expand the set of things that they are capable of doing.
比如以前，在AI这些东西出现之前，那种全能型人才，就是既有敏锐的产品直觉，又恰好是工程师，可能还懂设计的人。
Like back in the day, before all this AI stuff, the unicorn person was someone who was a really thoughtful product sense person who also happened to be an engineer who may also have been a designer.
这种人一直是大家争抢的香饽饽，因为他们能大大减少不同职能之间沟通的层级，自己就能快速轻松地构建或构思出东西，并让它运转起来。
That person was always the unicorn hire because they were able to really flatten the layers of translation needed between all these functions and were able to like build something or ideate something really quickly and easily themselves and get it up and running.
然后还能和团队一起协作，共同推进。
And then we're able to like work with a team and collaborate with a team on it.
我觉得最吸引我的一点，也是我努力想用这些工具做到的，而且我看到一些最成功的同事也能做到的，就是真正扩大自己能力范围，让脑子里越来越多的想法变成现实。
And I think the most compelling thing I found that certainly I try to be able to do with these tools and I've seen some my like most successful like colleagues be able to do with these tools is really expand the set of things that are within their range of possibilities so that they can start realizing more and more of what's in their head into the reality.
就像以前那种什么都会一点的人能做到的那样。
The way that someone who was previously like jack of all trades was able to do.
现在我们好像都有了这个超能力，我可以快速做出一套设计方案，然后去搭建一个初步的原型，还能找出合适的定价模式，把所有可能的情况都模拟一遍。
We kind of all have that superpower now that I can like spin up a set of designs on something and I can like go build an initial prototype of And I can figure out the right pricing model for it and model out all the scenarios.
真的，可能性一下子拓宽了很多。
Really the set of possibilities have widened dramatically.
而且这在很多方面意味着，我有能力像——就像之前提到电影时说的——更像一个导演那样去推动事情完成。
And actually what that means in so many ways is that I have the ability to like be a To that point earlier about film, like be more of an auteur as I try to get something done.
并且能更高质量地实现我的想法。
And like realize my vision maybe to higher fidelity.
对我来说，这就是在追求新想法和新产品时，能提升你雄心壮志的一部分原因。
And that to me is part of what can elevate your ambitions while pursuing new ideas and new products.
因为所有这些现在都触手可及，因为这一套新的能力就在你面前，你可以去尝试和利用。
That because all of these things are now within reach, because this new set of capabilities is now within your reach to be able to try and access.
你其实不受限制。
You're not really limited.
你的抱负不再受限于你自己能执行什么、能沟通什么。
Your ambitions are no longer limited by like what you're capable of executing yourself, what you're capable of communicating.
它可以宽广得多，多得多。
It can be so much, so much wider.
我觉得做这件事最难的部分，其实就是拓展你的思维。
I think the hardest part about doing this is simply just expanding your thinking.
实际上，能力已经大幅扩展了。
Actually the capabilities have expanded so dramatically.
真正难的是在极短的时间内，拓展你对可能性的认知。
It is really expanding your thinking of what's possible in an unreasonably short timeframe.
对我来说，最好的尝试方式就是，帕特里克·科里森在他的网站上，我记得是 patrickcollison.com/fast，列出了所有那些在极短时间内完成、极其雄心勃勃的项目。
And to me, the best way of trying to do that is, Patrick Collison has like on his website, patrickcollison.com/fast, I think, which is all of these projects that were unreasonably ambitious that were executed in a really, really short time period.
现在我觉得那份项目清单最了不起的地方在于，它们都出现在这些工具让你几乎可以瞬间学会如何构建某样东西，或者用一个问题就能得到答案之前。
And what for me is now remarkable about that list of projects is that they all existed before these tools made it possible for you to learn how to build something almost instantly or ask it with one question.
嘿，你能马上帮我总结一下这个很复杂的文本或者这本书吗？
Hey, can you summarize this very complicated text or this very complicated book for me, immediately?
或者我能不能尝试做那些以前对我来说不可能，但现在我能做到的事情？
Or can I try to do all of these things that were previously impossible to me, but now I'm able to do?
比如，我能不能快速做一个——你能帮我做一个我可能有的想法的CAD模型吗？
Like, can I spin up a Can you make for me like a CAD model of this idea that I might have?
真的，那些以前我完全够不着的能力，现在就在我手边。
Like really capabilities that are truly beyond my reach are now in my reach.
所以，如果那些快速项目以前用我们旧有的能力就能实现，那现在有了AI，那些不切实际地快速高效完成的事情，数量不应该呈指数级增长吗？
And so if those fast projects were possible before with the capabilities we used to have, shouldn't we just see exponential increase of the number of those types of unreasonably quickly and effectively executed things with what AI has given us?
你说得对，最难的部分就是记得去尝试，就是想着，哦对。
To your point, the hardest part is just remembering to even to try just to be like, oh, yeah.
好吧，让我看看Codex能不能帮我做这个。
Well, let me see if Codex can do this for me.
这就像一个新习惯，一个我们得在大脑里建立的新东西。
It's just like a new habit, a new, like, thing we have to build in our brain.
泰勒·考恩在他的网站上有这么一句话，就是说大多数人低估了去找别人说‘嘿，你能不能做一个比你正在做的更有野心的版本？’这件事的影响力。
Tyler Cowen has this statement on his site, which is that you most people underrate the impact of going to someone else and saying, Hey, couldn't you What is like more ambitious version of what you're doing?
或者你能不能做得更快一点？
Or couldn't you try this faster?
或者你能不能把规模扩大十倍？
Or couldn't you try this at a 10x bigger scale?
从某些方面来说，当我想到，产品经理现在做这件事是不是特别有效？
And in some ways, again, when I think of like, do PMs do that is incredibly effective now?
或者他们现在能做什么特别有效的事情？
Or what can they do that is incredibly effective now?
我觉得提升别人的野心，或者提醒他们什么是可能的，这是产品经理角色中很重要的一部分。
I think elevating others ambitions or reminding them of what's possible here is a huge part of the product management role.
比如当有人说，嘿，我觉得我们可以用这种方式完成，或者我们可以在那个时间点前完成，或者这可能是第一个版本。
Like when folks say, hey, I think we can get this done in this way or we can get this done by this timeline or maybe this is the first version of it.
你现在的工作的一部分就是提升每个人的野心，然后说，实际上，可能性的上限是不是高得多？
Part of your job now is to elevate everyone's ambitions and say, actually isn't the possibility ceiling meaningfully higher?
我们是不是应该对正在尝试的事情更有野心一些？
Like shouldn't we be more ambitious about what we're attempting here?
或者，我们能不能做得更快一点？
Or like, couldn't we try this faster?
我觉得这确实是个好状态。
And I think that's a yeah.
这是一个很好的位置。
It's a it's a great place to be.
从你能构建什么、什么是可能的，以及这份工作变得多令人兴奋的角度来看，这都是一个很好的位置。
It's a great place to be in terms of what you can build, what's possible, and in terms of, yeah, how exciting the job becomes.
这太有意思了。
That is so interesting.
我记得尼克·特利之前上过播客，他可能在你之前担任过这个职位。
I remember Nick Turley was on the podcast who was maybe had the role before you.
他现在好像在做企业相关的工作。
I think he's working at enterprise stuff now.
他在内部有个这样的梗。
He had this meme internally.
这已经最大程度加速了吗？
Is this maximally accelerated?
是的。
Yes.
我记得Slack里好像有个表情包。
There's like an emoji, I think, inside the Slack.
这已经最大程度加速了吗？
Is this maximally accelerated?
这已经最大程度加速了吗，这完全是OpenAI的梗。
Is this maximally accelerated is totally a OpenAI meme.
另一个OpenAI的梗是，我和Andrew Ambrosino喜欢问团队：你已经开始全天候用它了吗？
The other OpenAI meme that Andrew Ambrosino and I love to ask the team is like, are you mainlining it yet?
意思就是，你是不是每天都在用这个产品来完成你的工作？
Which is like, are you using this product all day every day to get your thing done?
而且我觉得，再加上一个问题：我们是不是尽可能有野心？
And I think that in combination with, are we being as ambitious as possible?
这关乎你做事的目标范围和规模。
Which is about like the scope and the scale of what you're trying to do.
这是不是已经最大程度加速了？
Is this maximally accelerated?
我们是不是在尽可能快地推进？
Are we moving as fast as possible on it?
然后，你是不是已经把它当成日常必备了？
And then are you mainlining it yet?
你用了没有？
Are you using it?
你是不是把所有的品味都用在判断这个东西好不好用、是不是大家真正想要的，并且尽可能缩短反馈循环？
And are you bringing all your tastes to bear on whether this thing works and is something that people really want and tightening that feedback loop as much as possible?
在我看来，这就是产品开发的三大信条，我们现在必须尽可能广泛地传播它们。
Those to me are like the three memes of product development that we we just have to spread as much as possible now.
我很喜欢这个。
I love that.
这就像是新的“吃自家狗粮”的做法。
It's like the new dogfooding.
不是吃自家狗粮，而是直接把它当成主线来用。
Instead of our new dogfooding, you gotta mainline it.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
这一点在推文里体现得非常明显。
And that shows so deeply in the the tweets.
我主要通过这个来了解你们团队的沟通方式，就是他们对产品有多痴迷，总是不断问还能怎么改进，现在有什么让你烦的，这是我们正在做的东西，很明显，就像你之前说的，每个人都是自己产品的创始人，而且他们表现得像个外部观察者。
This is mostly how I see your team communicate of just like how obsessed they are with the product and are just constantly asking what can we do better, what's bugging you now, here's the thing we're building, it's like, it's very clear how to your point earlier that everyone is just the founder of their product, and it's clear how they act as an external observer.
内部还有其他类似的理念吗？
Are there any other memes internally?
这些真的很有意思。
Those are so interesting.
还有其他的吗？我也不太清楚。
Any other I don't know.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得还有其他一些很好的文化梗。
I think there's other good cultural memes.
当然，一个非常重要的就是，感受AGI，或者说意识到AGI即将到来。
Certainly, a a really important one is, like, feeling the AGI or just being conscious of AGI coming.
关于它会是什么样子，或者人们怎么看待它，有很多种可能。
There are so many outcomes for what it could look like or how one thinks about it.
但让大多数人加入这家公司的一个很大原因，就是相信AGI造福人类这个使命，并且愿意尽一切努力去实现它，既要实现AGI，也要确保它对人类有益。
But a huge part of what puts most people at this company is believing in that mission of AGI being beneficial and trying to do whatever it takes to make that possible, both realization of AGI and ensuring that it is beneficial for for humanity.
在打造产品的时候，我脑子里一直要记住的一个反复出现的提醒就是，我们是不是在为两三个月后模型的发展方向而打造产品？
And in building products, another just constant refrain I have to keep in the back of my mind is, are we building for where the models are going to be in two to three months?
如果你按照现在模型的能力来开发，那你就失败了。
You fail if you build for where the models are now.
如果你按照你认为一年后模型会达到的水平来开发，那你也失败了。
You fail if you build for where you think the models will be in a year.
这两种情况其实都是错的。
Like both outcomes are equally wrong.
我相信很多人已经讨论过这一点，但确实这两种情况都是大错特错。
And I'm sure many people have talked about this but both outcomes are really equally wrong.
如果你太超前了，那也是错的。
If you're too early, you're wrong.
如果你过度依赖过去模型的能力来构建东西，那你完全错了。
If you build something that was overly focused on a past model's capabilities, you're entirely wrong.
唯一正确的做法就是按照两到三个月后的模型来开发。
The only way to build is two to three months.
而且要有这样的信念，就是模型会变得越来越强大。
And having this beam of like models are gonna get way better.
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我得把模型能力当作这个产品的核心来思考。
I need to think about the model capability as the center of this product.
我得在设计产品时，不要挡模型的路。
I need to get out of the way of the model in terms of the product constructs that I create.
我怎么确保两三个月后，这对模型来说还是合适的？
How do I ensure that this is right for the model in two to three months time?
你怎么知道两三个月后是什么情况？
How do you know what two or three months is like?
这很难判断，尤其是在我们处于这种指数增长的时候。
It's like a challenging understanding, especially while when we're on this exponential.
是不是就是凭直觉？
Is it like it's just a gut feeling?
研究人员有没有给你一些感觉或提示？
Is there anything that the researchers give you a sense?
这具体是怎么运作的？
How does that work?
是的，和研发团队保持紧密沟通，了解他们对未来方向的判断，这确实非常重要。
Yeah, certainly communicating really tightly with research on where they think things are going is incredibly important.
这些模型并不是完全的黑箱，你大概知道我们在关注哪些具体的事情。
Like these things aren't entirely like a black box in that you kind of know, hey, we're focused on these particular things.
比如我们希望模型在编程方面能更好，或者在写作方面能更好。
Like we would like models to be better at coding in these specific ways or better writing in these specific ways.
所以我们确实有重点地努力提升模型在特定能力上的表现。
So we certainly have focused efforts on making the model better at specific capabilities.
因此，了解研发的进展，并确保产品开发尽可能与研发的议程和路线图保持一致，这一点非常关键。
And so knowing where that is and ensuring that product development is as tied as possible to what research has as its agenda and its roadmap is really important.
有一句话我永远不会忘记，就是凯文·韦尔上播客的时候说的。
A quote that I'll never forget is when Kevin Weil was on the podcast.
那时候他是首席产品官。
He was chief product officer at that time.
他说，这是模型有史以来最差的时候。
He said that this is the worst that models will ever be.
听起来很简单，但就是很难让人真正理解这一点。
And it sounds so simple, it's just like, it's hard to just like wrap your head around that.
这是它们最差的时候。
That this is the worst they will ever be.
现在说这个几乎都成老生常谈了，但确实是真的。
Like, it's such a cliche almost now to say that, but it's it's true.
太不可思议了。
It's absurd.
这就像——
This is like
确实不可思议。
It's it's absurd.
绝对不可思议。
It's absolutely absurd.
天哪。
Oh, man.
好的。
Okay.
我想简单聊聊ChatGPT这个应用。
I wanna talk about ChatGPT, the app, briefly.
好的。
Okay.
我现在就开着它。
So I have it open right now.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以我在里面看到的是这样的。
So here's what I see in it.
有ChatGPT，然后有个下拉菜单，里面有ChatGPT和Codex，还有一个切换选项，聊天和工作。
ChatGPT, and then there's a drop down, and there's ChatGPT and Codex, and then there's this toggle, chat and work.
塔拉，这是怎么回事？
Tara, what is going on?
这些都是什么东西？
What are all these things?
帮我们理解一下这些东西各自是干什么用的。
Help us understand what each of these things are for.
你觉得这个会往哪个方向发展？
And where does this where do think this goes?
它会一直保持这样吗？
Is it gonna stay like this?
你已经在设想下一步了吗？
What is there like a next step that you're imagining already?
我们的核心目标是让用户不需要在这些不同选项之间做选择。
Our North Star here is that users do not need to make decisions between picking between all these different options.
理想情况下，这里没有切换开关，你直接去输入框，输入你的任务就行。
Ideally, is no toggle here that you go to the box, you type in your tasks.
比如我想做一个特别棒的应用，能帮我的播客嘉宾在节目前做研究之类的。
Like I would like to build a really awesome app that, I don't know, helps my podcast guests like do research before episodes or something.
对。
Yes.
然后它会自动选对合适的工具。
And it will just pick the right harness.
它会帮你选对合适的模型，让你把事情搞定。
It'll pick the right model for you to be able to get that thing done.
理想情况下，用户不需要在这些不同的概念之间做选择，也不用去理解他们到底想做什么，更不用去了解我们产品的局限和功能。
Ideally, choice here is like not on our users to have to pick between all these different concepts and understand not only what are they trying to do, but understand the limitations and capabilities of our products.
所以这肯定是我们想达到的目标。
So that is certainly where we wanna go.
短期内，在ChatGPT和Codex之间选择，其实就是看你是想留在更偏开发的界面，还是想在ChatGPT模式下获得同样的强大功能。
In the near term, picking between ChatGPT and Codex is really a choice for, do you wanna stay in sort of like more development oriented UI or do you want to have the same power and capabilities in the ChatGPT mode?
所以如果你是Codex用户，就继续用Codex吧。
And so if you're a Codex user, keep using Codex.
你不会错过任何东西，尽管继续用就好了。
You're not missing out on anything, like continue using it as much as possible.
但如果你是ChatGPT用户，可能会好奇这些新的代理功能是什么。
But if you're a ChatGPT user who is like, what are these new agent capabilities?
那你应该用ChatGPT模式。
You should probably be in ChatGPT mode.
然后在ChatGPT里，如果你想聊天、想搜索，聊天模式就是最合适的。
And then when you're in ChatGPT, if you wanna have conversations, if you wanna search, that's where chat mode is the right thing.
这就是你熟悉和喜欢的聊天模式，只是模型越来越好，功能也越来越新。
It's the, you know, same chat mode you know and love with better and better models and newer and newer capabilities every time.
但在工作模式下，底层其实是Codex。
But in work mode, that's where under the covers, this is Codex.
我们去掉了一些编码界面，比如你不会在工作模式中突然看到工作树弹出来，但它的能力是一样的，比如可以生成一个非常复杂的财务模型。
We've removed some of like the coding UI, like you don't you're not gonna see a work tree pop up all of a sudden in in work mode, but it is the same power to get things done to, for example, generate like a really complex financial model.
这些在工作模式下都能实现。
That's all possible in work mode.
我们看到很多人，尤其是我提到的公司财务团队，用工作模式做出了非常了不起的事情，这些事情以前要么是手工完成，要么需要团队里某个人有很深的专业知识，现在整个团队都能完成，或者只是提升了团队每个人的抱负，无论是时间线、能力还是他们能完成的工作的前沿。
And we see people, especially I mentioned our corporate finance team, use work mode to do incredible, incredible things that were previously either manual or required deep expertise from one person on the team become things that the whole team can be able to execute or just elevate the ambitions of everyone on the team in terms timeline or capabilities or frontier of what they can get done.
好的。
Okay.
这真的很有帮助。
That's really helpful.
所以目前大概有三种模式。
So there's kind of like these three modes currently.
有工程模式、聊天模式，还有知识工作模式。
There's like the engineering mode, the chat mode, and then the do knowledge work mode.
知识工作模式实际上是由Codex来完成所有工作的，但人们可能不知道Codex是什么，也许可能对它感到害怕。
And the knowledge work mode, it's actually Codex doing all that work, but people may not know what Codex is, maybe not may may be afraid of it.
工作模式里有没有什么不仅仅是Codex的东西？
Is there anything in that work mode that's not just Codex?
因为那真的很有趣。
Because that's actually really interesting.
是不是有一些额外的框架调整，让它感觉有点不同，还是只是同一个东西，只是界面稍微不一样？
Is it like is there like additional harness tweaks to make it feel a little different, or is it just the same thing with a little different UI?
其实主要就是在界面层面。
It's it's really at the UI level.
所以工作模式和Codex模式。
So work mode and Codex mode.
如果你去Codex，让它生成一个很棒的财务模型来给你的产品定价，或者类似的事情。
If you go to Codex and ask it to generate amazing financial model to price your product or something like that.
或者让它预测你未来六个月的收入，类似这样的。
Or like tell me predict my revenue for the next six months or something like that.
Codex能做得和工作模式一样好。
Codex will do as good a job as work mode.
关键其实在于，当它执行的时候，你希望在思考过程中看到什么样的界面。
It's like really about whilst it's doing so, what kind of UI do you wanna see in the chain of thought?
你希望看到多少技术细节被展示出来。
What kind of technical detail do you want exposed to you?
它其实同样强大，简直不可思议。
It's like incredibly it's similarly powerful.
所以Codex用户不切换模式也不会错过任何东西。
And so Codex users aren't missing out on anything by not switching modes.
事实上，我们反而希望他们留在Codex里，做他们想做的所有事情。
In fact, we do not want them to like stay in Codex and do all the stuff you wanna do in Codex.
我们会根据你提出的需求，展示相应的界面。
And we will show you the appropriate UI based on the things you asked for.
我们真正的北极星目标是把这些功能都融合在一起，让用户不用做任何选择。
Truly our North Star is to like merge all these things so that users don't have to make any of these decisions.
这种区分更多是为了尽可能贴近用户，无论是他们使用的产品，还是他们对概念的熟悉程度，确保每个人都能充分利用与智能体协作的优势，这已经彻底改变了每个开发者的工作方式，我们也应该对知识工作做同样的事情。
The separation is really more about how can we meet people where they are as much as possible in terms of the products that they use, in terms of their familiarity with concepts, and make sure that we are enabling everyone to take advantage of working with agents, which has transformed entirely the way every single developer works, we should do the same thing with Knowledge Work.
有道理。
It makes sense.
因为事情变化太快了，我想象有人会说，试试Codex吧。
There's this like because the things move so fast, like it would I imagine somebody's like, let's try Codex.
这肯定会很棒的。
This is gonna be awesome.
然后它就火了，月活用户达到一千万。
And then it takes off and there's 10,000,000 monthly active users.
然后他们就想，等等，我们这是在干嘛？
And then they're like, wait, what are we doing here?
我们有ChatGPT，还有Codex。
We got ChatGPT, we got Codex.
所以这就说得通了，你知道，这些事不会一开始就看起来顺理成章、完美无缺，因为你得随着事情的发展不断调整，有些行得通，有些行不通。
How do we so it makes sense why these things, you know, like it's not gonna feel obvious and perfect for a while because you have to kind of adjust as things work and things don't work.
会有这种过渡期，就像，好吧，不错。
There's these kind of transition periods of like, okay, cool.
现在让我们引导大家朝着这个超级应用的方向前进，比如说。
Now let's get people moving towards this vision of the super app, let's say.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得你工作中最难的部分之一，就是要平衡这个拥有1000亿月活用户的产品ChatGPT——它可能是历史上最成功的消费产品——和Codex这个新东西，以及你们想尝试的其他新事物。
I imagine one of the hardest parts of your job is balancing this 100,000,000,000 MAU product, ChatGPT, maybe the most successful consumer product in history, with Codex, which is this new thing and other new things that you guys wanna try.
你是怎么考虑这个问题的？
How do you think about that?
就是，我也不知道，就是怎么平衡这些非常有创新性、发展很快的团队和产品，同时又要面对，好吧，有十亿人在用这个产品。
Just, I don't know, just balancing these very innovative, fast moving teams and products with this like, okay, there's a billion people using this.
我们不能大改特改。
We can't change this dramatically.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这里最有趣的一点是，我们在ChatGPT网页版和桌面应用里推出工作功能，并把它们整合起来，其中一个目标就是，让那十亿使用ChatGPT的人，能够接触到越来越多的智能体能力。
I think one of the most interesting things here is that we one of the goals of launching work in ChatGPT web and launching it in the desktop app and bringing these things together was to look at those billion people who are using ChatGPT and bring them more and more of the agents power.
比如，如果你把AI产品的第一个时代看作是聊天，那么这些产品的第二个时代显然就是和智能体一起工作，而且主要是编程智能体。
Like if you think about the first era of AI products as chat, the second era of these products is clearly working with agents and primarily has been coding agents.
我们当然希望把它带到更多领域，比如知识工作。
We'd like to bring it to more domains certainly like knowledge work.
这也是我们让这十亿聊天用户获得工作能力的目标之一。
And that is part of the goal of giving all these billion chat users the power of work.
当然，我们面临的产品挑战是，不仅要让他们用上这些功能，还要让它们自然易用，容易上手。
Certainly the product challenge that it that's on us is how do we not only bring it to them, but make it natural and easy to adopt.
让他们不需要刻意去做决定。
Make it not a decision they have to explicitly make.
我们可以直接帮他们做对的事情。
We can just help them do the right thing.
我们要怎么简化它，让他们不用去想那些像“工具链”之类的复杂概念，毕竟要让十亿消费者理解这些太难了。
How do we take decomplexify it so they don't need to think about things like harnesses, which feel like crazy concepts for, a billion consumers to understand.
所以这主要就是我们的挑战。
So that that is primarily the the challenge.
然后，当然，第三个时代可能很快就会到来，那就是如何与一个持久的同事协作，它能和你一起完成任务，也许还能和其他人协作。
And then, of course, like that third era that that might come soon is how do you work with a persistent coworker who is able to get things done with you, maybe collaboratively with other people.
所以近期的一个挑战是，我们要把智能体介绍给十亿可能还没体验过它们的人。
And so part of this challenge in the near term is we're introducing agents to a billion people who may not have experienced them yet.
我们怎么才能用最简单、最自然、最好用的方式做到这一点呢？
How do we do so in the easiest, most natural and most usable way possible?
当然，要实现这个目标，我们还有很多工作要做。
Certainly there's a lot more for us to do to make that happen.
但这也让我想起一个教训，可能是在AI时代之前或者过去的产品经验中得到的，那就是在之前的公司里，打磨得完美无缺才是王道。
But part of this is also a lesson I've had maybe contrasting like pre AI era or past product experience with this one, which is at previous companies like Polish was king.
把每一个界面交互或者每一个小细节都做到完美，比尽早发布产品重要得多，因为那时候时间对结果的影响没那么大。
Getting every UI interaction or getting every little thing completely right was way more important than shipping something early because time didn't make as much of a difference in terms of the outcome.
所以，如果每个角落不是完美打磨，每个细节不是完全正确，那还不如不发布。
And so as such, like if every corner wasn't like perfectly polished and everything wasn't exactly correct, you might as well not ship it.
但我觉得这个时代和这个产品体验真正吸引人、有趣的地方在于，当你非常有信心这个产品是革命性的，把它交到用户手里，比追求完美要好得多。
But I think what's been really compelling and interesting about this era and this product experience has been getting the product in the hands of users when you have so much conviction that, hey, it's transformative, like is way better than perfect.
那种紧迫感和产品的及时推出非常重要。
And that urgency and that introduction of that product is so important.
所以我们还有很多工作要做，让聊天用户用起来更方便、更容易，尤其是那些可能不是用它来提高生产力，而是用来处理日常消费任务的人。
So we have a lot to do to make it more usable and easier for chat users, certainly, especially for folks who are not maybe even using it for productivity, but using it for like consumer tasks.
但确实，完成比完美更重要。
But yeah, done is better than perfect.
而且我们还有很多事情要做。
And then we have so much more to do.
对。
Yeah.
还记得这个应用刚上线的时候，有很多关于它让人困惑的评论，看到团队这么快就迭代并回应反馈，这正是我在这里听到的——先推出去，搞清楚到底哪里不行，人们是怎么用的，然后快速迭代。
Remember when, this app first launched, there was a lot of, comments about the confusion and seeing how quickly the team iterated and respond to the feedback is exactly what what I'm hearing here is get it out, figure out what the hell's what what's not working, how people are using it, iterate quickly.
感觉现在就是这种模式了。
Feels like that's the the model now.
当然，在发布之前，你也可以继续迭代并获取反馈，而且我们总是有很多可以也应该做得更好的地方。
And of course, there are things that you can continue to iterate and get that feedback prior to launching, and there's a lot that we can and should always do better.
但关键是尽可能快地迭代，并倾听正确的信号，不管是在发布前还是发布后，理想情况下是在发布前。
But, iterating as quickly as possible and listening to the right signals is regardless of whether that's prelaunch, postlaunch, ideally prelaunch, is is the is the key thing.
本期节目由 Mercury 赞助播出，这是一家彻底不同的银行，现在推出了 Spend 功能。
This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking now with Spend.
我用Mercury已经好多年了。
I've been a Mercury customer for so many years now.
我把所有企业银行业务都转到了Mercury，说实话，我不能再满意了。
I switched all my business banking to Mercury, and honestly, I could not be happier.
这就是由产品人而不是银行家打造的网上银行体验。
It's what online banking feels like when it's built by product people, not by bankers.
现在有了Spend功能，你可以给团队发个人卡，按人或按团队设置消费限额，还能自动从Gmail或短信中提取费用收据。
And now with spend, you can give your team individual cards, set spending limits per person or per team, and have expense receipts automatically pulled in from Gmail or over text.
你甚至可以让你的AI代理拥有自己的卡，并设置自己的限额和规则。
You can even give your AI agents their own cards with their own limits and policies.
大多数创始人一开始都是这样的。
Most founders start out the same way.
公司里所有人都用同一张卡。
One card used by everybody at the company.
一开始还行，但后来就不行了。
It works until it stops working.
有人超支了，收据也不见了。
Someone goes over, a receipt disappears.
你得花两天时间搞清楚谁花了什么钱，为什么花的。
You spend two days trying to figure out who spent what and why.
Spend 就是把费用管理直接集成到 Mercury 里。
Spend is expense management built directly into Mercury.
你团队的所有卡片、预算和报销，都和企业银行业务放在同一个地方。
All your team's cards, budgets, and reimbursements all live in the same place as your business banking.
不用追着问，不用手动审核，月底也不用手忙脚乱。
No chasing, no manual reviews, no end of month scramble.
结果是团队能快速行动，创始人也不再是瓶颈。
The result is a team that can move fast and a founder who is no longer the bottleneck.
想了解更多并注册，请访问 mercury.com。
Learn more and get signed up at mercury.com.
Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 承保的银行。
Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank.
银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column NA成员提供，受FDIC保障。
Banking services provided to Choice Financial Group and column NA members FDIC.
IO卡由Patriot Bank NA成员发行，受FDIC保障，并根据Mastercard International Incorporated的许可发行。
The IO card is issued by Patriot Bank NA member FDIC pursuant to a license from Mastercard International Incorporated.
我在Twitter上注意到，过去几个月里，从Claude Code到Codex的氛围确实发生了变化。
Something I've noticed on Twitter is there's definitely been this vibe shift from Claude Code to Codex in the past few months.
以前大家都在说Claude Code这个、那个的。
Used to be everyone was Cloud Code this, Code that.
最近感觉人们更倾向于Codex了，至少在Twitter上是这样，虽然Twitter是个泡沫，但很多科技圈的人都在那里。
More recently, it just feels like people are leaning now towards Codex, at least on Twitter, which is a bubble, but it's where a lot of tech people are.
我很好奇，过去三到六个月内部有什么变化，除了Tara加入并整顿了局面之外。
I'm curious what's shifted internally in the past, I don't know, three to six months, other than Tara joining and shaping up the ship.
有没有什么你能分享的，比如我们搞定了这个，调整了那个，砍掉了这个。
Is there anything that you can share that's just like, okay, we figured this thing out, we shifted this, we cut this thing.
是什么帮助改变了氛围，让Codex变得如此成功？
What what helped shift the vibes and help Codex become as successful as it as it's becoming?
你知道，我觉得有句话叫，开悟之前，砍柴挑水；开悟之后，还是砍柴挑水，大概就是这个意思。
You know, I think there's like this phrase, which is before enlightenment, carry wood or carry water, chop wood, post enlightenment, carry water, chop wood sort of thing.
其实对于Codex应用来说，最初把它搞起来并持续开发的团队，非常注重用户体验，迭代周期很短，而且真的在吃自己的狗粮，尽可能多地用这个应用来确保一切都没问题。
And actually with the Codex app, the team who initially got it up and running and we're working on it, were super, again, user focused, tight iteration loop, really dogfooded the thing, like mainlined the app as much as possible to get everything right.
大家开始意识到，外部和Twitter上也在发生同样的事情，用户也开始真正注意到这一点。
Folks started to realize that was happening on externally and on Twitter and users started to really notice.
但团队始终非常关注用户，非常注重迭代。
But the team was always really focused on users, really focused on that iteration.
而某种程度上，只是市场跟上了，这才是变化所在。
And it was merely the And to some extent, like the market catching up, that was the change.
而且这个过程在内部一直没有改变。
And that process has not changed internally.
每个人仍然经常使用这个应用。
Everyone still constantly uses the app.
所有参与开发的人，显然都是开发者，用这个应用来做开发，不仅不断修复自己的问题，还努力倾听公司里其他人的问题和用户的问题。
Everyone in the who's building it obviously is a developer using it for development and is constantly fixing not only their own problems, but trying to listen to other people in the company's problems and user problems.
其实挺了不起的是，运作方式一直没变。
Actually what's sort of remarkable is that the mode of operating hasn't changed.
一直就是我之前提到的那个样子。
It's always been the same thing I had mentioned earlier.
比如，我们的野心够不够大？
Like are we elevating our ambition sufficiently?
我们是不是在最大程度地加速进展？
Are we maximally accelerating progress?
我们是不是尽可能地在全力推进？
And are we mainlining it as much as possible?
我觉得很棒的是，用户和推特上的人都注意到了，但那种运作方式，功劳全在团队，一直没变。
And I think it's great that, users and folks on Twitter have noticed, but that that operation, like, that full credit to the team, like, that hasn't changed.
这个回答真正有意思的地方在于，它非常人性化。
What's really interesting about this answer is it's it's the very human part of it.
就是你本人。
It's you.
是安德鲁。
It's Andrew.
是泰尔奖学金得主。
It's Thiel Fellow.
是团队对客户或产品的执着。
It's the team just like being obsessed with the the customer or the product.
而且并不是说AI就是答案。
And it's not like it's not like AI was the answer.
是那些人才带来了改变。
It's the humans that made the difference.
对。
Yeah.
我要说，团队在这里值得所有的功劳。
I'll I'll give the the team deserves full credit here.
团队里的每个人都非常有想法、非常独立，而且说到这一点，OpenAI有很多创始人。
Everyone on the team is incredibly thoughtful and independent and to the point of like, there are many founders at OpenAI.
那个团队里几乎每个人都像创始人一样，尤其是桌面端团队，对每一个细节都特别上心。
Almost everyone on that team, like the desktop team especially, acts like founders and cares about every piece and every detail.
当他们发现某个地方可以改进时，会非常独立地去把它做出来并上线运行。
And when they notice an area that should be better, they go build it very independently and get the thing up and running.
如果内部测试效果不好，比如没人用或者觉得没价值，他们就会继续迭代优化。
And if it doesn't test well internally, like people aren't using it, if people don't find it useful, they'll iterate on it.
最后再推向外部用户。
And then finally, like ship it externally.
但这一切的功劳都要归功于团队里的各位，还有那些让这一切成为现实的个人。
But that loop is full credit to like people on the team and individuals for making that happen.
你刚才提到的一个点，是关于角色重叠的概念。
Something you touched on is this idea of roles overlapping.
就是像工程师也在做产品管理和工程管理工作。
This idea of like, you know, engineers are doing EPME work.
你可能还在负责原型开发，甚至直接推向生产环境。
You're doing probably shipping prototypes and building maybe shipping to production.
我不知道。
I don't know.
只是感觉这样也带来了很多挑战。
Just it feels like that also creates a lot of challenges.
我听到很多人说，那我现在作为设计师，我的工作是什么？
I hear from a lot of people, like, what is my job now as a as a designer?
我负责什么？
What am I what am I responsible for?
哪些又不归我管？
What am I not responsible for?
作为市场人员，我到底在做什么？
As a marketer, what am I what am I doing?
你有注意到这种情况吗？
Is that something you notice?
你也在面对这样的问题吗？
Is that something that you're dealing with?
就随便聊聊这方面的想法吧。
Just any thoughts along those lines.
我觉得在初创公司工作最让我喜欢的一点是，有时候我是在一家后来发展成大公司的初创公司开始的，但主要还是在小公司工作，那就是你的角色几乎没有界限。
I think the thing I've always liked the most about working at startups and sometimes I've started at a startup that actually grew into a large company, but largely primarily working at startups is that there are very few boundaries around your role.
就是说，所有事情都是你的责任，但又好像什么都不归你管。
That like everything and nothing is your responsibility.
最终，你要为成功负责。
Ultimately you're accountable for success.
实际上，Stripe 就是这样的，工程师、产品经理、设计师之间没有明确的界限。
Actually like Stripe was very, very much this way where there are no boundaries around what a engineer could do versus a product manager could do versus a designer could do.
每个人都可以做任何事。
Everyone could do anything.
所以，我一直很喜欢这种心态。
And so actually it kind of feels like I've always really loved that mentality.
现在，能力终于跟上了这种心态。
And now finally capability is catching up to that.
但我真正关心的是，得有人负责或者承担核心责任，确保这个产品真的被用户使用。
But the thing I really care about is that someone needs to look after the, or have core accountability for is this product being used by users?
这是人们想要的东西吗？
Is it something that people want?
质量高吗？
Is it high quality?
有效果吗？
Is it effective?
不管那个人是工程师、设计师、产品经理还是谁，总得有个直接负责人。
And whether that person is like an engineer or designer or a PM or whomever, like someone is the DRI.
然后，为了实现这个目标，需要做的所有工作。
And then whatever work needs to be done to make that possible.
当然，大家可以根据自己的兴趣和能力去接手。
Certainly people can pick it up based on their affinity, based on their capability.
但我喜欢那种不太在意个人角色界限的团队，每个人都专注于把结果做出来。
But I like a team that doesn't really mind what the boundaries are between individual roles, but everyone's just sort of focused on making the outcome happen.
反过来，我也非常喜欢做产品经理的那些手艺活儿。
The converse of this is I also really love like the craft aspects of like being a PM.
产品经理的手艺有很多方面，我知道像Shreyas、Marty Cagan或者Shishir这些人，他们都大力推崇过，我觉得那些真的很棒。
Like there are so many aspects to PM craft that I know folks like Shreyas or maybe Marty Cagan or Shishir, like all these people have really espoused that I think are wonderful.
有时候这些问题可能来自——等等，我这么喜欢自己领域的手艺，如果采用这种更灵活的团队协作方式来把事情做成，会不会有冲突？
And sometimes maybe some of these questions come from, wait, I so love the craft of my domain by taking this more fluid approach to teamwork and collaboration to get something done?
我会不会因此没法提升和打磨自己的手艺了？
Do I lose out on getting better and polishing my craft?
这个问题我真的没有答案。
And I truly don't have an answer for that question.
我觉得这是我们大家都在共同经历的事情，就是手艺的某些部分其实正在被模型抽象化，因为它们能做得非常高效，甚至可能比个人做得更好。
I think it's like something we're all experiencing together, which is some pieces of our craft are actually getting abstracted by models being able to do it really effectively, maybe better than individuals can.
你的手艺从过去能完成那个非常具体的任务，变成了现在要应用到产品或领域的其他部分。
And your craft moves from being able to do that very specific task you did in the past to now applying it to some other part of the product or the discipline.
但没错，这仍然是我在思考的问题，就是如何平衡我作为团队一员、使用这些工具、感受到现在这些产品带来的高效所带来的强烈吸引力，和我对手艺的热爱——比如，对工程师来说，一直手写代码真的很有趣，但现在没人再这么做了。
But yeah, that is still a question I'm thinking about, which is how do I balance my desire to be part of a team and use these tools and feel so compelled by how effective one can be now with all these products, with my love of like the Yeah, it's really fun handwriting code for an engineer all the time and one doesn't really do that anymore.
是的。
Yes.
我正想说这个。
That's where I was gonna go.
现在的工程师角色变化之大，简直让人难以置信。
It's just like unbelievable how different the engineering role is now.
对。
Yeah.
以前你整天写代码。
It's like you used to write code all day.
那就是你的工作。
That was your job.
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在这已经不是你的工作了。
That is no longer your job.
对。
Yeah.
而且这个变化来得特别快。
And that happened so quickly.
就像你
Like you
我现在能体会到，很多人怀念那种亲手写代码的沉浸感，跟现在做的事情完全不一样了。
I can now write think people mourn like the flow state of writing code manually yourself versus now what one does.
但我觉得，是的。
But I think it is a Yeah.
这个转变挺难的。
It's a tough transition.
对。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，有些人喜欢这样，有些人不喜欢。
And, you know, some people love it, some people don't.
那又是另一个话题了。
And that's a whole other topic.
顺着这个思路，我想问一下AI前沿的人，你觉得未来人类大脑在哪些方面还会继续有价值？
Kind of along this line, something I'd like to ask people at the frontier of AI is, where do you think human brains will continue to be valuable in the future?
长期来看，我们到底还需要人类做什么，这很难预测，希望还需要吧。
It's impossible to predict long term what we need humans hopefully.
但就说未来几年，你觉得人类大脑在哪些方面还会最有价值？
But I'd say in the next couple of years, just like where do you think human brains will continue to be most valuable?
我觉得人类最有价值的地方，肯定是作为责任主体。
I think humans will continue to be the most valuable as a, certainly as a, Like an entity of accountability.
也就是说，最终谁对结果负责？
So who ultimately owns the outcome here?
某种程度上，你可以把和你合作的AI代理看作是你的下属。
In some ways you can think of your agent that you're working with as like your report.
最终谁拥有最终成果的所有权？
Ultimately who owns like what was the end product?
质量高吗？
Was it high quality?
是不是你希望它做和说的那种事情？至少目前来看，这肯定还是由人来决定的。
Was it a thing that you wanted it to do and say like that will certainly remain a person at least for now.
尤其是在那些监管严格或者需要直接人工介入的行业和领域。
And especially in industries and places that are highly regulated or require like a direct human interface like that.
这对我来说非常合理。
That makes a ton of sense to me.
我觉得人脑在表达方面也非常有价值。
I think the human brain is also really valuable for expression.
我之前提到过那个类比，软件不像房地产。
I had mentioned earlier that analogy of software is not like real estate.
它更像电影，你投入了钱，但好电影不一定就能拍出来。
It is more like a film where you could put money and a great film does not come out.
最伟大的电影往往不是预算最大的那些。
Like the greatest films are not the ones with the biggest budgets.
而且考虑到在构建软件时，有艺术性、个人观点和表达，你会觉得有某个人或某个团队的创作痕迹。
And given that there's artistry and opinionation and expression in building software where you feel like there's some authorship by a person or a group of people.
而这一部分对我来说仍然非常人性化。
And that part remains to me so human.
比如你选择构建什么，以及它给人的感觉，这真的是一个很人性化的问题。
Like what you choose to build and how it feels, feels like such a human question.
我还觉得，在如何关心彼此、如何与人相处方面，人脑依然很有价值。
I also think the human brain continues to be valuable in like how we care for each other and relate to one another.
我工作中的这一部分一直都很人性化，而且实际上变得比以往任何时候都更重要。
That piece of my work has remained so human and remained actually has actually become more important than ever.
这部分就是你和团队里的其他人交流，一起想办法对某个领域保持热情，如何共同学习和协作，如何提升彼此的抱负。
The part where you talk to other people on your team and collectively figure out how you can be enthusiastic about a area, how you learn and work together, how you elevate each other's ambitions.
所有这些都感觉并且仍然是人类该做的事情。
All of that feels and remains such a human thing to do.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得在这方面，人脑依然会非常有价值。
I think the human brain will will continue to be so valuable in that regard.
不过，你知道，我也没法预测模型会发展成什么样。
That said, I, you know, can't predict what'll happen with the models.
但那些部分对我来说，真的非常非常有人情味。
But those pieces feel to me to be incredibly, incredibly human.
我很喜欢这个回答。
I love that answer.
你提到了一个想法，就是关于AI的能力和我们实际用它做什么之间存在的这种差距。
There's this idea that you talked about, this idea of the this overhang of what AI is capable of and what we're actually, doing with it.
人们总是觉得，最大的差距之一就是，好吧。
People are always like, it feels like one of the biggest gaps is like, okay.
我该拿它做什么呢？
What should I do with it?
我很好奇，你在工作中使用AI的一些方式，可能会启发别人，比如让人惊叹，哇。
I'm curious what are some ways that you use AI in your work that may inspire people like, oh, wow.
我没想到还能这么用。
I didn't think about using it that.
这里大概有两类情况。
Like, there's kinda two buckets here.
一类就是，你的产品经理工作因为AI发生了最大的变化，让你觉得，好吧。
One is just like, what's, like, the most how your PM job has changed most, thanks to AI, that you're just like, okay.
现在这些事我都用AI来做。
Now I use AI for this stuff.
然后还有，最近有没有什么特别有趣的AI创意用法，让你觉得，哦对。
And then what's like is there any, like, super interesting creative uses of AI recently that you're like, oh, yeah.
你应该试试这个。
You should try this.
我在工作中最兴奋的一个用法，其实就是现在经常建网站。
One of the most exciting ways that I use AI in work is actually build sites all the time now.
不知道你有没有试过建网站，在……
I don't know if you've tried building sites in
我还没试过。
I haven't.
说说看，Sites 是什么？
Talk about sites.
Sites 真的是个特别好玩、特别棒的产品。
Sites is a really fun, amazing product.
基本上，你可以用它建一个网站，在工作中当作展示用的东西。
You can basically build a site certainly in work as a presentational artifact.
但我其实什么都用 Sites 来建。
But I also build sites for literally anything.
我给团队建过一个网站，用来一起玩游戏，因为 Sites 自带数据库。
I built a site for the team as a game where we all played a game together using a site because sites have a database.
你可以用它建网站。
You can build site.
我最近去背包旅行，还专门建了个网站。
I actually built site because I went on a backpacking trip recently.
我建了一个网站，记录我们沿途的海拔变化。
I built a site of the route that like tracked the elevation of everywhere we were going.
我们旅行中的每个人都把他们的食物信息输入进去了。
Everyone on our trip like inputted all their food.
整个过程非常快速高效。
It was like super fast and effective.
Sites 实现了艾伦·凯在六十年代提出的可塑个人软件的梦想，即真正的个人电脑应该拥有个人软件。
Sites kind of realized the dream of like malleable personal software that Alan Kay flagged in the sixties of like the true personal computer is one that has personal software.
从某种程度上说，Sites 就是让这个梦想成为现实的具体方式。
In some ways sites are like the tangible way to make that possible.
我们都曾梦想过制作个人软件，当然，像 Notion 这样的工具，人们也尝试用各种模块来配置出那样的效果。
We'd all once dreamed of like making personal software and certainly people with tools like Notion, etcetera, try with all these blocks to configure what that could be.
但有了 Sites，它真的就是一个提示词。
But with a site, it is literally a prompt.
我直接用一个提示词说，给我建一个我需要的工具来完成这件事。
I literally with a prompt say like, build me this exact tool that I need to get this thing done.
然后它就自动完成了。
And it just does it.
这些网站还可以分享。
They're shareable.
它们还能自动更新。
They can use like an auto update.
你可以用内部数据来建个仪表盘，比如展示各种指标。
You can use like internal data to build like a dashboard for example, with lots of metrics.
与其费劲地做幻灯片，网站作为展示工具要灵活得多。
And rather than like painstakingly laboring over some sort of like slide deck, a site is just a way more dynamic surface for presentation.
你是怎么用网站的？
How do you use a site?
需要做什么特别设置吗，还是直接告诉它创建网站就行？
Do you have to do anything special or you tell it, like create a site?
在Codex里，你可以说，创建一个网站，比如给我团队做个黑手党游戏，它就会直接搞定。
In Codex be like create a site that is a, I don't know, is a mafia game for my team and it will just do it.
而且我在想，大写的S网站，无所谓，想象一下。
And like I'm thinking capital S site, doesn't matter imagine.
它就知道网站是什么。
It just knows what sites are.
所以是的，因为以前是给你源代码，你自己琢磨怎么部署。
So it's yeah, because it used to be here's some source code, go figure out where to deploy it.
对。
Yeah.
你现在说的就是它直接帮你托管。
And what you're saying here is it just host it for you
然后你马上就能
and immediately you can
用了。
use it.
不管是不是公开的。
Whether it's public.
你可以选择是和你的团队共享，还是只对你个人可见。
You can choose whether it's with your team or choose whether it's private to you.
它们真的很棒。
They're great.
随时轻松搭建网站，这彻底改变了我每天的工作方式。以前我常常要制作很多文档、速查表之类的，现在完全不一样了。
They've the easy reach of building a site all the time has changed what my day to day looks like, which often in in previous worlds used to look like creating lots of artifacts like dachshunds, cheats, and whatever it might be.
现在我就一直做网站。
Now I just make sites all the time.
那你是通过什么方式做的呢？我猜是通过工作平台，还是通过所有那些界面，比如 Codex、Work、ChatGPT？
And you could do that through I imagine work or you do it through through all the surfaces, Codex, Work, ChatGPT?
可以通过 Codex。
You can through Codex.
也可以在网页上操作。
You can do it in the web.
手机上也能做。
You can do it on mobile.
你可以在任何地方做。
You can do it anywhere.
我刚刚启动了一个关于Tara Seshan的创意网站。
I just kicked off a creative site about Tara Seshan.
太好了。
Great.
顺便问一下，你的姓是那样发音的吗？
Is that how pronounce your last name, by the way?
我之前没问过。
I haven't asked that.
Tara Seshan，像station那样。
Tara Seshan like station.
Station。
Station.
好的。
Okay.
不错。
Cool.
好的。
Okay.
不错。
Cool.
网站。
Sites.
好的。
Okay.
既然我们聊到这个话题，你还有什么其他快速建议要给大家吗？
Any other quick tips while we're on this topic for people?
比如，那个建议很棒，因为我觉得很多人不知道网站这个功能。
Like, that was a great tip because I don't think a lot of people know about sites.
那非常有用。
That's very useful.
对，Sites 真的很棒。
Yeah, sites are awesome.
另外我特别喜欢的还有 Codex 里的 Visualize 功能。
The other thing I really love is using Visualize in Codex.
你用过 Visualize 吗？
Have you used Visualize?
没有。
No.
哦，Visualize 真的超级让人兴奋。
Oh, Visualize is incredibly exciting.
你只要说 Visualize，比如‘可视化一下我到现在为止的 ChatGPT 使用情况’之类的。
You can just do Visualize, visualize my ChatGPT usage until now or something like that.
它就会把你做过的所有事情都拉出来，然后生成一个特别棒的视觉效果。
And it will pull in like all the things that you've done and create like an amazing visualization for it.
我无数次在想，怎么才能不只是拉出一堆图表和数据，而是用一种能让人看懂、对我想讲的故事有用的方式来呈现它们。
The number of times that I've been thinking about how do I not only pull in a bunch of charts and data, but present them in a way that is understandable and useful for the story I'm trying to tell has been infinite.
而Visualize让这一切变得非常简单。
And Visualize makes that incredibly simple.
使用Visualize真的让人惊喜，体验非常愉快。
It is surprisingly delightful to use Visualize.
这些例子都很好地说明了，这里有很多我们甚至不知道或不了解的功能，这就是你面临的挑战。
It's just like, these are such good examples of there's so much power here we don't even know about or understand, and that's the challenge you have here.
帮帮我们，当然。
Help us For sure.
当然。
For sure.
让我们了解所有这些功能。
Us know all these things.
所以像这样的播客也很有用。
That's why podcasts like this are also useful.
不可能把所有功能都塞进产品里。
Can't put it all in the product.
我要换个完全不同的方向。
I'm gonna go in a totally different direction.
我想聊聊写作。
I wanna talk about writing.
我问了很了解你的布里·沃尔夫森，该问你些什么。
I asked Brie Wolfson, who knows you well, what to ask you.
有意思的是，她给我提的问题建议，其实是用在我之前和黑泽的亚当·沃德那期播客对话里的。
Funny enough, she suggested questions for the previous podcast conversation I did with Adam Adam Ward from Kurosawa.
然后她说，好吧。
So she said, okay.
你应该问问她关于写作和思考的事。
You should ask her about writing slash thinking.
塔拉的简报堪称经典。
A Tara brief is iconic.
帮我们理解一下，到底是什么让你的写作和简报这么经典，还有没有一些建议，能帮那些想提升写作和文档能力的人？
Help us understand just what makes your writing, your briefs iconic, and any tips that might be helpful for people that are maybe trying to get better at writing and writing documents.
我非常坚信，我在工作中会写两种类型的文字。
I really strongly believe that I do two types of writing at work.
一种是作为思考的写作，另一种是作为汇报的写作。
One is writing as thinking and the other is writing as reporting.
作为思考的写作，就是写一份简报，说明我们为什么要做某个产品，或者为什么要采取某个策略，或者可能是一个比较有争议的观点。
Writing as thinking is me writing a like a brief about why we should build certain product or why we should take a certain strategy or why like maybe a spicy take.
而作为汇报的写作，就是像总结我们团队这周做了什么，然后发一份报告过去。
But writing is reporting is things like, oh, I'm summarizing the status of what our team has been up to this week and I'm sending over a report about it.
或者这是我们某个发布或公告的计划之类的。
Or this is our plan for this particular launch or announcement or something like that.
对于作为汇报的写作，我很乐意自动化，或者经常用模型来让它尽可能简单。
Writing is reporting, I happily automate or I use the models all the time to make that as simple as it can be.
但作为思考的写作，我永远不会自动化。
But writing is thinking is something I never will automate.
我非常坚信，至少对我来说，把东西列出来、写成某种形式的文章、删减和编辑、不断迭代，是让我理清思路的最重要步骤之一。
I really strongly believe that the, at least for me, the act of going through and outlining something, turning it into some level of prose, cutting it and editing it, continuing to iterate on it is one of the most important steps for me to get my ideas in line.
我觉得大多数人其实都会一概而论。
I think most people actually, will paint with a really broad brush.
比如，我绝不会用模型来写作，或者我总是用模型来写作。
Like I will never use the models for writing or I always use the models for writing.
但实际上，对我来说，这两种一概而论的说法都不对。
And actually to me like that brought both those broad brushes are wrong.
我觉得你应该尽可能多地用模型来处理那种报告性质的写作。
I think you should use the models as much as possible for writing as reporting.
而当你像我一样，真的把写作当作思考的方式时，
And in as much as you think with writing as I really do.
我觉得很多人都是这样，你就不应该用模型。
And I think a lot of people do, you should not use it.
你不应该用模型来替代你的思考。
You shouldn't replace your thinking with it.
但因为我过去写了很多这种思考性质的简报，我会为某个新想法或产品写一份完整的简报，花大量时间打磨那个想法，然后拿给人们看，让他们尽可能多地攻击其中的观点，挑毛病，让它变得更完善，然后再拿给下一个人，重复这个过程。
But my briefs in the past, because I write so much as a way of thinking is that I will a I will like go into a whole write a brief for a new idea or a product, spend a ton of time refining that particular idea, shop it around with people and have them attack the ideas in it as much as possible and poke holes, make it stronger and then take it to the next person and do the same thing.
所以在Stripe，这种事情我做了很多很多很多次，不管是启动一个新产品的领域，还是提出一个大的方向改变，或者分析一个问题并提出前进的路径。
And so at Stripe, this is something I did many, many, many, many times over, whether that was like to kick off a new product area, or to suggest a big change in direction, or to analyze a problem and suggest like a path forward.
而Stripe是一个非常注重写作文化的公司。
And Stripe is incredibly oriented as a writing culture.
那里有很多像Jeff Weinstein这样的人，他们也非常热衷于写作和分享简报。
And there are many people like Jeff Weinstein who are also very into writing and sharing briefs at Stripe.
Stripe是少数几个简报能在公司内部火起来的地方之一。
Stripe is one of the few places where like a brief will go viral inside the company.
所以，写作就是思考，这一点在那里非常受重视。
And so writing is thinking there is really prized.
而我大部分这样的写作工作就是在那里完成的。
And that's where I did like the majority of that writing work.
在OpenAI，我觉得我仍然一直在用写作来思考。
At OpenAI, I think I still write as thinking all the time.
但在这里，可分享的成果并不是那种长篇文档或者那种形式的证明工作。
But the shareable artifact here is not really a long doc or a sort of proof of work in that way.
部分原因是时代变了，一份长文档并不能证明你想清楚了，因为你可以轻松写出一份长文档，反而说明你没想清楚。
Partially because times have changed and a long doc is not a signal that you thought through something because you can easily produce a long doc that indicates that you haven't.
所以，实际上，我日常工作中经历的最大变化之一，可能也是比较让人不适应的变化，就是我以前习惯在文档里思考，然后再把它转化成演示文稿。
And so actually the point maybe one of the biggest changes I've experienced personally in my day to day, which has been a big maybe jarring change is I used to think in a document and then do some translation of that into a presentation artifact.
那是我表明自己已经想清楚问题的方式，也是我们接下来要做的方向，团队就朝那个方向走。
And that would be my indication that I had thought through a problem and this is what we're gonna do and the team moves in that direction.
而现在，我更多依赖模型或原型，而不是文档。
And now I am way more on mocks, not docs or prototypes, not docs.
如果我能拿出一个大家可以试用和交互的东西，甚至更好的是，有实际结果，比如我们试过这个，做了A/B测试，这是结果。
And if I have something that people can try and interact with or even better, have like results where we tried this, we ran an AB here's like the results.
这就是我认为我们应该朝这个方向走的原因。
This is why I think we should like go in this direction.
这比文档本身要好得多的沟通工具。
That is a way better communication tool than like the doc itself.
所以我还是会写很多文档，但那是为了我自己。
And so I still write hundreds of docs all the time, but I do it for me.
而且我基本上不再为别人写文档了。
And I no longer do it for other people really.
就是说，那已经不再是沟通交流的最佳方式了。
Like that no longer is the best way to talk and communicate.
这大概是我在这个时代相比之前经历的最大变化了。
That is probably the biggest change I've experienced personally in this era versus the previous era.
这真的很有意思。
That is so interesting.
我特别喜欢你那个在文档上收集大量反馈的建议。
I really liked your tip of getting tons of feedback on a doc.
听起来好像很简单，但你知道吗，你几乎可以靠“作弊”来得到一份很棒的文档或简报，就是在不断修改的过程中收集大量反馈。
Like, you know, it sounds obvious, but, you know, you can get to an iconic doc slash brief by just cheating almost and getting lots of feedback on it as you're iterating
对。
Yes.
让它变得越来越强，而不是说，酷。
To make it stronger and stronger and stronger versus like, cool.
第一次就做到完美，这很少见。
Here it is first time, and it's rarely gonna be
我以前有个经理告诉我，正确做法是先把文档写到七成，然后拿给需要支持的人，再从七成完善到十成。
I previously had a manager who told me that the right thing to always do is write a doc to 70% completion and then take it to the people that you need buy in from and get it from 70% to a 100%.
我现在还是经常这么做，因为真正优秀的人不太愿意跟一个已经打磨得完美无缺的想法打交道。
And that still is like a thing that I do all the time because very few great people want to interact with like a perfectly polished finished idea, like a perfectly polished idea.
新想法碰到这种完美的东西就弹开了，反而那些有棱角、有粗糙边的东西，他们能跟你一起打磨。
Their new ideas just like bounce off of it versus something that has more crags and more, rough edges that they too can polish with you together.
我觉得这样把别人带进过程里，文档作为核心载体，是我发现的最好的合作方式之一。
And I think that like, bringing people into the process that way, where like a doc is like an underlying artifact for that, is one of the best ways to collaborate that I found.
你怎么看待AI脑腐和开始过度依赖AI？
How do you think about AI brain rot and starting to over rely on AI.
这是每个人都会面临的挑战。
That's just the challenge everybody's gonna have.
为什么不利用这种魔力来帮忙看东西，然后我们开始失去写和读长文档的能力呢？
Why not use this magic to help look at something, and then we start to lose our ability to write read long documents.
你有没有做什么事情来避免这种情况？
Is there anything you do that you are trying to avoid that?
有。
Yeah.
我觉得写作即思考这个习惯是我日常用来防止思维能力退化的主要方法之一。
I think this writing is thinking discipline is one of the main pieces that I employ in my day to day to make sure I'm not overly atrophy my my thinking abilities.
我觉得我会再次把所有的写作和报告尽可能外包给模型。
I think I will again outsource all writing is reporting as much as possible to the model.
但写作即思考这件事我必须自己做。
But writing is thinking I have to do myself.
我有一个个人信念，如果我要让别人读我的文档，我至少得先自己读那么多遍。
And I have this like personal belief that if I'm going to make someone read my document, I have to at least read it first that number of times.
在开会时我也这么想，如果我要召集一群人开会，我需要在开会前准备好相当于所有人开会时间总和的时间。
Or I think about this in meetings too, that if I'm gonna call a meeting with a set of people, I need to have prepped the collective amount of time that people are going to spend in that meeting before the meeting.
所以为了保持思维敏锐，我会先自己写文档，确保我投入的时间至少相当于我期望别人阅读的时间，用于写作和产出。
And so when it comes to like keeping my thinking sharp, like I do that writing for the document myself first and make sure I've invested like the collective amount of time I expect people to read it at least in writing it and producing it.
而且我也不太依赖模型来润色我的文字，我觉得它在这方面做得并不好，尤其是在生成初稿的时候。
And I don't really rely on the model either for polishing my pros, which I don't think it really it really does or, especially not in, like, generating the the first version.
但当然，在总结内容或者把内容从一种格式转换成另一种格式的时候，我确实经常让模型帮忙。
But I do I do, of course, have the model help me a lot when it's, like, summarization or, like, translation of content from one format to the other all the time.
所以你的意思是，想法、简报、计划这些都要自己作为人来写。
So what I'm hearing is, write the idea, the brief, the plan yourself as a human.
自己动手写。
Write it yourself.
不要一开始就用AI。
Don't start with AI.
甚至也不要用它来改进你的写作。
Don't and as and even don't use it to improve on the writing.
就保持所有这些都是人做的。
Just keep that all human.
对。
Yeah.
至少对我来说，我自己开始，也自己结束。
At least at least for me, I start myself and I end myself.
我可能会在中间用AI来研究某些具体内容，或者插入一些数据，或者去拉一些数据，或者帮我
I might use AI in the middle to research specific elements or drop in some data or go pull some data or help
出出主意。
me on some ideas.
对。
Yeah.
对，帮我反驳一些想法，但开始和结束都要靠你自己写，不然你的思考能力会退化。
Push back on some ideas, but start yourself and yourself with a piece of writing and that's gonna deteriorate your thinking.
好的。
Okay.
最后一个问题。
One last question.
想问问关于Sutter Hill的事。
Wanna ask about Sutter Hill.
你经历了一个非常不寻常的职业转折。
You had this very unusual career step.
你去找了你的PMPM创始人，然后就说，好吧，成为Sutter Hill Ventures的EIR，那可是家标志性的风投公司。
You went to your PMPM founder person and then just like, okay, EIR at Sutter Hill Ventures, which is a iconic VC.
大家可以去查查。
I'll people can look it up.
Sutter Hill孵化了非常多厉害的公司。
A lot of amazing companies came out of Sutter Hill.
他们有一种非常独特的创业方式，基本上就是自己孵化公司，比如Snowflake就是例子。
It was it has a very unique way of approaching founding where basically they incubate companies, Snowflake as an example.
这到底是怎么回事？
What was that what was that about?
你从那段经历中学到了什么？
What'd you learn from that experience?
Sutter Hill是一家标志性的公司，而且它故意保持低调，让人看不透。
Sutter Hill is an iconic firm and is intentionally a very illegible firm.
你看，如果你去 Sutter Hill 的官网，上面几乎什么都没有。
Like, if you go to the Sutter Hill website, you will see nothing on the website.
这是一家行事非常低调的公司。
It is a firm that doesn't operate loudly.
他们尽量不张扬、保持谦逊，但偏偏造就了一些硅谷历史上最标志性的成功企业。
It tries to operate as under the radar as possible, as modestly as possible, yet is somehow responsible for some of the most iconic successes that Silicon Valley has seen.
他们有一套很特别的孵化模式，由那里的合伙人之一 Mike Speiser 发起，并且已经取得了接连不断的成功。
And they have this very unusual incubation model, which Mike Speiser, who is the like, one of the amazing partners there started and, has rolled out success after success.
我觉得苏特希尔最让我印象深刻的一点是，很多人把找到产品市场契合度，或者打造一家市值数百亿美元的公司，看作是一种玄学。
I think the thing that was most iconic to me about Sutter Hill is that people look at finding product market fit as a dark art or building like a tens of billion dollar company as a dark art.
觉得这全靠运气。
Like, it's luck.
哎呀，说是碰巧。
Oh, it's chance.
哎呀，说是要各种条件恰好凑在一起才行。
Oh, it's all these like things that must come together.
但迈克·斯派塞已经成功了好几次。
Yet Mike Speiser has done it multiple times.
所以很明显，这是有方法可循的。
And so there is there's like clearly a way to do it.
显然有一条路线图可以让这成为可能。
There's clearly a roadmap for making that possible.
有一系列的做法可以让你反复做到这一点。
There is a set of things one can do to get this repeatably.
这不仅仅是运气。
It's not just luck.
这也不是什么玄学。
It's not just a dark art.
可以说，这有一套打法，而这套打法就藏在萨特希尔这家公司里。
There is a there is a playbook as it were, and that playbook lives inside of the firm Sutter Hill.
他们找到了如何在高频次上做出正确判断和押注的方法。
And they have figured out how to be right a lot in terms of, like, calling shots and making bets.
他们还学会了如何在日常的积累中做对很多决定，从而打造一家成功的公司，无论是怎么搭建企业销售团队、怎么定位产品，还是怎么组建最初的创始团队。
And they've learned how to be right a lot in terms of the, like, daily compounding things that one does to create a successful company, Whether that's how you set up your enterprise sales team, how you position your product, how you, like, build the initial founding team.
Sutter Hill 的招聘工作做得非常出色，简直无与伦比。
The recruiting at Sutter Hill is like an unparalleled excellent thing.
他们有一个秘密工具叫 Reticle，里面有一张地图，记录了所有他们接触过的人，以及这些人接触过的最优秀的十个人，这让他们在这方面特别高效。
They have a secret tool called reticle where they have a map of, you know, everyone in, that they've interacted with and the 10 best people that those people have interacted with, that helps them be so, so effective at this.
所以我去了 Sutter Hill，因为某种程度上，我的职业生涯就是关于如何尽可能多地找到产品市场契合点。
So I went to Sutter Hill because in some way, career has been about how do I try to find product market fit as many times as possible.
无论是作为创始人，还是在 Stripe 内部启动新产品，或者加入像 Watershed 这样的初创公司。
Whether that was as a founder or in starting new products at Stripe or in like joining a startup like Watershed.
而 Sutter Hill 就是这样一个地方，他们找到了如何在 B2B 产品上实现产品市场契合的方法。
And so Sutter Hill is a place where they've figured out how to find product market fit on B2B products.
我想从他们那里学到我能学到的东西。
And I wanted to learn what I could from them.
你学到了什么？
What'd you learn?
除了他们知道怎么做之外，你从那段经历中学到的一件事是什么？
What's one thing you took away from that experience other than they know how to do it?
他们确实知道怎么做。
They they definitely know how to do it.
我觉得在那里学到的一件让我很惊讶的事情是，产品市场契合度当然重要，但实际上我低估了产品营销契合度。
I think one thing that was very surprising to me that I learned there is that product market fit is sure important, but actually I really underrated product marketing fit.
就是说，你谈论产品的方式和营销方式，甚至可以在产品还没做出来之前就先行。
The idea that the way you talk about the product and the way you market it can proceed actually even building the product.
这大概应该来自于对技术的深入理解，再加上对企业销售流程的理解。
It should probably come from some sort of bringing together of understanding the technology deeply and then understanding like the enterprise sales process.
然后，这种产品营销契合度、这种叙事、这种定位，实际上是在你构建产品体验之前就应该测试的东西。
And then that product marketing fit, that narrative, that positioning is actually even before you build the product experience, the right thing to test.
所以你应该去跟一百个人推销，尽可能打磨你的推销话术，把为什么这个东西具有变革性的营销叙事讲清楚。
So you should go, like, pitch a 100 people, figure out how to refine that pitch as much as possible, get the marketing narrative of why this thing is transformative right.
然后，只有在那之后，才去确定，好吧，这就是产品的具体形态。
And then and only then go commit the, okay, this is exactly the product shape.
迈克·斯派塞在这方面简直无人能敌。
And Mike Speiser is like unbeatable at this art.
以前我总觉得产品营销工作没那么重要。
Previously, I'd always kind of underrated PMM work.
我当时觉得，也就那样吧。
I was like, it's whatever.
就是各个部门之间的粘合剂。
Like, it's the glue between these functions.
还行吧。
It's fine.
后来我才意识到，如果这项工作做得非常出色，对公司的影响有多大，甚至可能成为公司成功的关键因素。
And then I realized how transformative that work done excellently is to a company's outcome, and in fact can be the element that makes a company successful.
太棒了。
Amazing.
我完全同意。
I so agree with that.
定位，我们在播客里经常聊这个话题。
Positioning, we talk a lot about that on this podcast.
对。
Mhmm.
好。
Okay.
我马上给你看看生成了哪些网站。
I'm gonna show you what sites got created real quick.
我们刚才聊天的时候它一直在运行。
It was running while we were talking.
你看看这个。
Check this out.
看这个。
Look at this.
哇，天哪。
Oh, man.
我当时就说，让它更酷一点，结果他们真的做得更酷了。
I was like I was like, make it more awesome, and they made it more awesome.
这就是Multi产品。
That's Multi product.
太漂亮了。
Beautiful.
看看这个。
Look at this.
这设计真像那么回事。
Is like a legit design.
你瞧瞧。
Look at it.
有引语，大信念，小团队。
Got quotes, big conviction, small teams.
给买家点个赞。
Shout out to buyer.
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