86分钟指南：找到PMF | Rob Snyder（《Pull的力量》作者）

他说：“好的，太好了。”

He said, "Okay, great.

“如果我帮你搞定这件事，你会买吗？”

Would you buy something if I helped you get this done?"

“当然，肯定会。”

"Yeah, totally."

“好的，太好了。”

"Okay, great."

然后他说：“我得去跟另外五个理疗师聊聊，确认这个需求是普遍存在的。”

And then he said, "I need to go talk to five other physical therapists and just make sure this repeats."

然后他真的去做了，那些人也都确认了，这真的很关键，确保他不是只给一个人做产品。

And then he did that, and they also pulled, which was the really important thing to make sure he wasn't just building a product for one person.

他给这家公司展示的是什么？

What is it that he showed this company?

是那四个要点吗？比如项目是什么、为什么非做不可，还是别的什么？

Is it the four bullet points with here's the project, here's why it's unavoidable, or is it something else?

所以我其实建议准备两张幻灯片。

So I actually recommend having two slides.

一张幻灯片基本上就是PULL框架。

One slide is basically the PULL framework.

你不需要给他们展示PULL框架，因为没人能看懂。

You don't have to show them the PULL framework because no one's going to understand it.

你只需要说：“我听到的是这样。

You can just say, "Here's what I hear.

你现在因为Y的原因想做X。”

You're trying to do X right now because of Y."

“你也考虑过这个，但因为这个原因还不够好。”

"And you've considered this, but it's not good enough for this reason."

你问：“我理解得差不多对吧？”

You say, "Do I have that roughly right?"

然后第二张幻灯片就是我能怎么帮你的一个概念性概述。

And then the second slide is a kind of conceptual overview of how I can help.

所以听起来你是在找一个比顾问更快的方式来削减这个项目。

"So it sounds like you're looking for a way to cut this line item that's faster than a consultant.

我们可以为XYZ提供这个——这符合你的需求吗？

We could offer that for XYZ with-- Does that kind of fit what you're looking for?"

你希望第一张幻灯片能让他们说：'天哪，是的。'

And you're looking for the first slide, them to say, "Oh my God, yes."

第二张幻灯片则是：'对，这怎么运作？'

And the second slide, "Yeah, how does it work?

我们具体怎么推进？'

How exactly do we move forward?"

我喜欢你内容的地方在于它非常即插即用，很务实。

What I love about your stuff is it's very plug-and-play, pragmatic.

所以我们实际上会展示一张你让人们用来填写的实际模板的幻灯片。

So we'll actually show a slide of the actual template you have people use to fill this out.

所以措辞，我也会从这张幻灯片上读出来。

So the phrasing, I'll read it from this slide, too.

这是你待办事项里的项目，目前因为某些原因没法回避，你研究过的选项是这些，但它们在这方面还有欠缺。

This is the project in your to-do list, and it's unavoidable right now because of this, and options you looked into are this, and they're lacking for this reason.

对。

Yep.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我很喜欢这个。

I love this.

所以想法是，你制作这样一张小幻灯片，拿去给别人看，核心就是这个假设。

So the idea is you have this little slide that you just create and to kind of run by people, and the idea is this is the hypothesis.

当你展示给他们看时，如果反响热烈，那会是什么样子？

And what does it look like when there's pull, once you show it to them?

是不是他们马上就想给你打钱？

Is it like they're ready to send you money?

是不是他们眼睛都亮了？

Is it their pupils dilate?

那你要看什么呢？

What do you look for?

对，要看几个方面。

Yeah, you look for a couple things.

最最关键的是他们真的想买。

The thing that really, really matters is that they actually try to buy.

他们会说：“好的，不错。

They say, "Okay, cool.

我们怎么开始？”

How do we get started?"

他们真的会这么做。

And they will do that.

我有个朋友，他一直在转型，但他知道找到了真正的需求，是有个制药公司的高管，在他还没有产品的时候就说：“如果你能做到，我现在就付钱。”

I have a friend who is selling into-- He kind of pivoted around for a while, but he knew he found pull when someone, an exec in pharma, before he had a product, said, "If you can do that, I will pay you right now."

所以，这就是你要找的信号。

So, okay, that's the signal you are looking for.

你还要看他们是不是很投入。

What you're looking for as well is they're leaning in.

“等等，

"Wait a second.

你能做到什么？”

You can do what?"

你不想看到的是那种敷衍的热情。

What you're not looking for is kind of like leaned out enthusiasm.

“好的，

"Okay.

那再跟我说说。”

Well, tell me more.

“嗯，让我想想——对。”

Well, let me-- Yeah.

我们会考虑的。”

We'll think about it.

你能多发送一些信息，让我们团队审核一下吗？

Can you send more information so our team can review that?"

还有那些类似的情况，只要不是那种“好，我们怎么推进这件事？”的态度，

And any of those kinds of things, anything that is not like, "Okay, how do we actually move forward on this?"

就不值得你耗费心力去追求。

is just not worth your life force going after.

有趣的是，肢体语言和身体上对某个想法感到兴奋的程度，竟然能说明这个想法好不好。

It's interesting how much body language and just the physical experience of getting excited about an idea is a sign that it is good.

我刚刚在播客里采访了谷歌实验室的负责人Josh Woodward，他也一样——你能看到他们眼中的光芒，眼睛一下子亮起来，这真的很能说明吸引力。

I just had Josh Woodward on the podcast, head of Google Labs, and he's similarly-- You see a twinkle in their eyes, and their eyes just light up, and it's so interesting that that's a sign of pull.

你要看的是，他们现在不买是不是觉得奇怪？

It's what you're seeing is, is it weird for them not to buy right now?

他们的行为是不是表现出不买反而很奇怪？

Are they behaving as if it's weird for them not to buy?

有一种是“我一定会买这个。”

There's the, "I will buy this."

他们说会买，和真正会买的信号是两回事。

They say they will buy it versus a sign they will actually buy it.

是看肢体语言吗？

Is it the body language?

你怎么知道他们是认真的？

How do you know they're serious about it?

所以我管这叫‘拉动式行动’。

So I call it a pull-shaped action.

这词儿不咋地，但拉动式行动就是‘我现在就需要这个。’

Not a good term, but a pull-shaped action is like, "I need this right now.

我在从你那儿把它拽出来。

I am pulling it out of you.

我们现在怎么推进？’

How do we move forward right now?"

而不是那种‘哦，我觉得我们第四季度肯定能用上’这种话。

It is not like a, "Oh, I could totally see us using this in Q4" kind of thing.

那不是朝我拉近的动作。

That's a not pulling towards me.

那是把东西推到未来去。

That's a kind of pushing out into the future.

就像那种紧迫感——

Like the urgency of-

对

Yes

……

...

我现在就需要这个。

I need this now.

总有人建议说解决自己的问题，这跟你说的不太一样。

There's always the advice of solve your own problem, which is different from what you described.

你会推荐这条路，还是不建议这么做？

Is that a path you recommend, or would you recommend against that?

所以有个朋友，艾米丽，在一家叫Clearly AI的公司。

So a friend's, Emily, at a company called Clearly AI.

她之前在AWS做安全工程，她在那里发现了一个她愿意花钱请人解决的问题，但市面上没人做这个。

She was in security engineering at AWS, and she found something there that she would've paid somebody to solve, but there was nobody out there.

所以在这种情况下，就是解决自己的问题。

And so in that case, it's solve your own problem.

对，完全正确。

Yes, 100%.

但很多时候，“解决自己的问题”这个方法不太行得通，是因为那件事你其实不会花钱请人帮你做，只是觉得它应该存在，对吧？

Where the solve your own problem falls kind of flat a lot of times is, it's a thing that you wouldn't have paid somebody to do for you, but you just think should exist, right?

所以你得对自己诚实。

And so you have to be honest with yourself.

我做过一些事情，我建了一些东西，然后想，“哦，我觉得世界需要这个。

I have done things where I've built things that like, "Oh, I think the world needs this.

我遇到了这个问题。”

I ran into this problem."

但如果我照照镜子，我不会说：“对，现在就买这个。”

But if I looked myself in the mirror, I wouldn't have said, "Yeah, buy this right now."

顺着这个思路，这个建议主要是针对B2B SaaS这类软件，还是也适用于比如消费类应用？

Along those lines, is this advice mostly for B2B SaaS sort of software, or is this applicable to, say, consumer app?

我主要是在B2B领域，但我也见过不少人——让我挺惊讶的是，很多做消费领域的人也用了这个方法。

So I am mostly in the B2B space, but I have seen quite a few people-- I've been kind of surprised that a lot of people from the consumer space have used this as well.

有人给我讲过Spanx的故事，基本上就是，她也是用一对一的方式跟人交流，观察他们的反应，来弄清楚后来组成Spanx的各种细节。

And someone sent me the story of Spanx, which was basically, she did the same thing of selling one-on-one with people, seeing how they reacted to figure out all the different pieces of what became Spanx.

而且她解决的是自己的问题，这很有名。

And she solved her own problem famously.

是的。

Yes.

她直接剪掉了自己的连裤袜，我记得故事是这样的，因为她当时就需要。

Just tore off her pantyhose or I think that's the story, because she needed it now.

我记得好像是，对，她要去参加一个活动。

I think it was like, yeah, she was going to an event.

这真是个很酷的例子。

So that's a cool example.

我们接下来会深入聊聊这个，但你有个“孤注一掷”的思路。

We're going to talk more about this, but you have this idea of the Hail Mary approach.

说说这个吧。

Talk about that.

说到孤注一掷，我们刚才一直在聊理想情况。

So the Hail Mary, so we've been talking about the happy path here.

你发现了一个东西，跟人聊起来，他们反应是“天哪。

You find something, you're talking with people, and they're like, "Oh my gosh.

对，这正是我需要的。”

Yeah, this is exactly what I need."

但很多时候，这种情况并不会发生。

A lot of the time, that's not going to happen.

你得到的往往是那种不冷不热的感觉。

You're going to get that kind of lukewarm feel.

所以我发现，这其实也是一个机会，我称之为“孤注一掷”，就是说：“好吧，

And so what I've tended to find is that's also an opportunity to, what I call, throw the Hail Mary, which is, "Okay.

这个好像不太行。

This doesn't seem to be a thing.

那你的待办清单上有没有什么你现在就愿意花钱让我帮你做的事？

Is there anything on your to-do list that you would pay me to do right now?

你愿意花钱让别人帮你分担的事？”

That you would pay somebody to take off your plate?"

这就是一个开放式的“孤注一掷”。

And that's just an open-ended Hail Mary.

我确实见过不少初创公司完全转型，并且因为这种“孤注一掷”而腾飞，这真的很有意思。

I've actually seen quite a few startups totally pivot and take off from the Hail Mary, which has been really interesting.

有一家初创公司，他们想向政府推销一个应聘者追踪系统，他们和一个人通了电话，那个人说：“嗯，这有点意思。”

There's one startup, they were trying to sell an applicant tracking system into governments, and they had a call with somebody, and the person was like, "Yeah, that's kind of interesting."

但在“孤注一掷”的问题之后，他说：“对，我其实愿意花钱让你帮我解决的是这个职位描述的问题。”

But after the Hail Mary question, "Yeah, what I'd actually pay you to solve is this job description thing right now."

那成了他们的第一份合同，也成了他们的第一个客户，从那以后他们发展得非常快。

And that became their first contract, that became their first customer, and they've grown super fast since then.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

所以这里的建议就是，有时候就大胆地问——我们能帮你解决什么问题？

So the advice here is just sometimes feel free to just ask- ... what problem can we solve for you?

对，这就引出了——怎么看待销售。

Yeah, and that leads to- ... how to think about sales.

好，我简单说一点，如果你们感兴趣的话，我们可以深入聊聊。

Well, I'll just give a little, and we can dig into this if it's interesting.

但我作为一个超级内向又爱想太多的人，以前总是对销售感到紧张。

But I always was kind of nervous to sell as a mega introvert and overthinker.

感觉压力很大，好像我得说服你买才行。

It just feels like a lot of pressure, and I need to convince you to buy.

所以那个问题让人很不自在。

And so that question feels uncomfortable.

但如果你在心里重新想一下，"不，我只是看看他们有没有什么卡住的地方需要帮忙。"

But if you kind of reframe it in your own head of, "No, I'm just seeing if they need help with anything that they are stuck on.

如果他们不需要，那也没关系。

And if they don't, that's fine.

但如果他们需要，那很好，我们可以看看我能不能帮上忙，"这样你对销售的态度就会改变。

But if they do, cool, we can explore if I can help," then it kind of changes your orientation towards sales.

我和你有同感，这个想法真的很好。

I am in the same boat as you, and that's a really nice way of thinking about it.

我只是想解决别人的问题。

I'm just trying to solve someone's problem.

为什么这么难呢？

Why is it so hard?

在我们进入下一步，也就是第一次销售电话，基本上就是找一个你不认识的人聊聊，在你想点子的时候，有没有什么常见的错误或者陷阱，或者一些信号？

Before we get to the next step, which is getting your first sales call, basically finding someone to talk to that you don't already know, are there any anti-patterns or just kind of signals, or just traps people fall into when they're coming up with ideas?

太多了。

Infinite.

但我见过最要命的问题之一，就是觉得自己得先把东西做出来。

But the main ones that I have seen that are really, really brutal are feeling like you need to build it yourself first.

你想到一个点子，然后觉得‘这还没到能拿出手的时候’，或者‘别人得亲眼看到才能理解’。

So you come up with an idea and you're like, "I don't think this is ready for primetime," or, "I think people have to see it to get it."

然后你就埋头去做了。

And then you go heads down and build it.

现在有了AI，你大概能在几周内搞定这个，而不是几个月，甚至更久。

Now, with AI, you can kind of get that out of your system in hopefully a couple of weeks instead of months or not.

但你得尽早面对现实。

But you want to face the cold wind of reality as soon as possible.

所以别拖延跟客户的交流，那才是你能真正找到需求的地方。

And so don't delay the customer conversations where you can actually find pull.

你也不喜欢设计伙伴吗？

You're also not a fan of design partners?

哦，不。

Oh, no.

好，展开讲讲，因为找设计伙伴通常是非常标准的建议。

Okay, say more, because this is typically very standard advice to find design partners.

我不太确定。

I don't know.

也许在某些情况下是有帮助的。

Maybe in some contexts it's helpful.

但我还没见过它真正起作用。

I have yet to see it be helpful.

我每次看到有人找设计伙伴，基本上都是这样：你找到一个设计伙伴，他口口声声说“认同你对产品的愿景”，然后给你一堆反馈，但从来不买你的东西。

What I've seen in basically every single time I've seen somebody with a design partner is that you recruit a design partner who, quote-unquote, "buys into your vision for the product," and they give a bunch of feedback and never buy from you.

他们从不购买，你最后发现他们的反馈只是在扮演乔布斯。

They never buy, and you realize that all of their feedback was just them playing Steve Jobs.

他们只是觉得“我要帮这个初创公司”，而不是“我有真正想完成的事情”。

And they're just like, "I'm going to help this startup," versus, "I have something I'm actually trying to get done."

而且你想一下，那些真正有重要事情要完成的人，他们根本不想当设计伙伴。

And if you think about it, the people who actually have something really important they're trying to get done, they don't want to be a design partner.

他们只是想把那件事做成。

They just want that thing done.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的建议是不要找一堆设计伙伴，然后我们会聊聊你实际推荐的做法。

So your advice is don't set up a bunch of design partners, and we'll go through kind of the process you actually recommend.

好的，那我想就“想点子”这一步来说，核心时刻是基于某种洞察——

Okay, so I guess just to think about this coming up with an idea step, the core moment is some insight based on-

对。

Yes

——就是亲自上手，和你要帮助的那些人生活在一起。

... being hands-on, living with the people that you will be helping.

我听过一个词来形容这个想法，好像是风投公司Floodgate用的。

The term I've heard to describe this idea, I think it was a VC, Floodgate, that uses this.

你基本上是在寻找一个来之不易的秘密。

You're basically looking for an earned secret.

是的。

Yes.

你的建议是，找到这个来之不易的秘密的方法，要么是你在一家公司亲身经历过，比如亚马逊的AWS例子，要么是你和那些正在处理问题的人并肩工作，寻找他们遇到的问题。

And your advice here is the way to find that earned secret, either it's you have lived it at a company, say Amazon gave this AWS example, or you're on the ground working side by side with the people dealing with it and just looking for problems that they have.

好。

Cool.

方法其实不重要。

And the method kind of doesn't matter.

它可能是在一次死藤水静修中突然想到的。

It might come to you in an ayahuasca retreat.

你可以在任何地方得到那个秘密，但最有可能真正起作用的是亲自动手，从现实中学习，而不是从理论中学习。

You could get that secret from anywhere, but the things that are most likely to actually work are getting your hands dirty and learning it from reality versus from theory.

顺着这个思路，假设有一个饼图，显示你合作过的50家公司的想法来源。

So just to follow that thread, say there's a pie chart of the, say, 50 companies you've worked with, where their idea came from.

那饼图里最大的几块是什么？

What would be the biggest chunks of the pie chart?

我觉得10%是个人经验，90%是去获取第一手经验。

I would say 10% own experience, 90% going and getting firsthand experience.

而且在这90%里，有些人一开始卖错了产品，才搞清楚什么是对的。

And within that, it's been a bit of some of them sold the wrong product to figure out what the right product was.

但大多数人真的是亲自去做了那件事。

But most of them actually go and do the thing firsthand.

那喝死藤水占多少比例？

And then what percentage ayahuasca retreat?

这个没地方放了。

There's no room for that one.

100%。

100%.

这是我给你做咨询的必备环节。

That's mandatory as part of me advising you.

对。

Yes.

这就是所谓的“吸引力假设”。

That's the pull hypothesis.

是的。

Yes.

好的，太好了。

Okay, sweet.

好，那假设现在你有了一个吸引力假设。

Okay, so say at this point you've got a pull hypothesis.

有迹象表明这里可能真的有好东西。

There's signs that maybe there's something really good here.

在我看来，下一阶段就是找个人聊聊，把东西卖出去，基本上就是搞定第一次销售电话。

The next phase in my eyes is finding someone to talk to and sell it to, so basically landing a first sales call.

说说你是怎么搞定那个电话的，然后会发生什么……

Talk about how you go about landing that call and what happens kind of...

我们接下来会聊怎么真正去跑这个电话，但在这之前，先说说怎么找到人聊。

And we'll talk about actually running the call, but before we get there, just finding people to talk to.

对，这个挺有意思的。

Yeah, this is a fun one.

我的目标其实是每天能和潜在客户聊两到三次。

So my goal is actually, I want to have two to three conversations per day with potential customers.

但要达到这个目标，你得先有第一次对话。

But to get there, you have to first get your first conversation.

你可以通过熟人介绍，或者用其他类似的方式。

So you can do warm intros, you can do all that kind of stuff.

我们就聊聊如果你没有任何资源，需要冷启动找人聊的话，我通常建议创始人的方式就是通过LinkedIn或者邮件直接联系潜在客户，但要用一种非常特定的信息，不是那种“嘿，你有某某痛点吗？”

We'll just talk about if you don't have any of that and you need to get people to talk to you cold, the way I typically recommend founders start is to just reach out to your potential customers on LinkedIn or via email, and it's with a very specific kind of message that is not a, "Hey, do you have XYZ pain points?

“你想买我们这种颠覆性的解决方案吗？”

Would you like to buy our game-changing solution?"

网上随便找的模板根本不会有人回复你，除了“别烦我”这种。

No template you get online is going to get you any responses except for, "Leave me alone."

所以我称这个阶段为“创始人魔法式”的外联，基本上就是，“你很有意思。

And so I call it founder magic kind of outreach at this stage, which is basically like, "You're interesting.

我也很有意思。

I'm interesting.

咱们聊聊看吧。”

Let's chat and see."

这完全没问题。

And this is totally acceptable.

我帮助过的一家初创公司，他们的消息是：“嘿，Snoop Dogg投资了我们，我觉得你也会觉得有意思。

One of the startups that I helped, their message was, "Hey, Snoop Dogg invested in us, and I thought you'd find it interesting, too.

你愿意聊聊吗？”

Would you be open to chat?"

这条消息挺有意思的。

That's a fun message.

每个人都有自己的版本。

Everyone has their own version of that.

每个听这个节目的人，或者每个创始人，都有一些有趣的话可以发出去，而且你不需要在消息里说服他们买你的产品。

Everyone who listens to this or everyone who's a founder has an interesting message you can send, and you don't have to convince them in the message to buy your product.

你只需要让他们愿意跟你聊一聊。

You just get them to talk with you.

这个吸引力就在他们的待办事项清单上。

This pull exists- ... out there on their to-do list.

所以消息本身并不能改变这一点。

And so the message doesn't do anything about that.

它只是为了让他们愿意跟你对话。

It's just to get them to talk to you.

所以，说点有趣的事情，让他们愿意跟你见面。

So just say something interesting to cause them to meet with you.

好的。

Okay.

这真的很有帮助。

This is really helpful.

所以你的建议是，不要精心准备一整套价值主张的推销话术，也不要分析问题。

So your advice here is don't craft a whole value prop pitch, problem identification.

不要告诉他们你能解决多大的痛点。

Don't tell them how much pain you're going to solve.

只需要用有趣的东西吸引他们的注意力。

It's just get their attention with something interesting.

对。

Yes.

Snoop Dogg的例子太棒了。

The Snoop Dogg example is awesome.

还有其他的例子吗？或者有没有其他思考方式，想想什么对别人来说是有趣的？

Any other examples, any other kind of ways of thinking about what might be interesting to someone?

我见过各种各样的例子。

There's been a variety of ones that I've seen.

比如有些随意的，像“嘿，我从博士项目退学了，现在在做一些面向内容营销人员的东西。”

Random ones that are like, "Hey, I dropped out of my PhD, and I'm now working on something for content marketers."

就是那种足够有趣的东西，不需要特别神奇。

Something that's just kind of interesting enough there, that's not super magical.

我见过各种不同的例子，比如“我曾是山姆·奥特曼的幕僚长”。

There's a variety of different things I've seen from, "I was Sam Altman's chief of staff."

如果有人发这样的消息，效果会很好。

If anybody sends that message, that will work quite well.

消息的其他部分说什么都不重要。

It doesn't matter what the rest of the message says.

“我觉得你会很有趣，也愿意聊聊。”

"I thought you'd be interesting and open to chat."

所以关键是要找到一些有趣的点，值得和他们展开对话。

And so it's finding something interesting that's worth a conversation with them.

我想说的是，这其实也取决于你的目标客户。比如，如果你联系的是暖通空调公司，说“嘿，我是山姆·奥特曼的前幕僚长”，

What I'd say is, it really depends on your end customer, too, because if you're doing outreach to, for example, HVAC companies saying, "Hey, I'm Sam Altman's former chief of staff.

“觉得你可能会感兴趣。”

Thought you might find it interesting."

他们会说：“哥们，我完全不知道这条消息里的词是什么意思。”

They're going to say, "Buddy, I have no idea what the words in this message mean."

所以可以是像：“嘿，我高中时在家族的水管公司工作过，现在我在做一些挺有意思的事情。”

So it could be like, "Hey, I worked at my family's plumbing company in high school, and now I'm working on this kind of interesting thing.

觉得你可能会感兴趣。

Thought you might find it interesting.

你愿意聊聊吗？”

Would you be open to chat?"

这里隐含的一点是，要非常简短。

An implicit element of this is keep it very short.

听起来就是一两句话的事。

Sounds like it's just a sentence or two.

好的。

Okay.

那你对AI群发邮件和针对每个人单独写独特消息，这两种方式怎么看？

And then what's your take on AI emailing a bunch of people versus individually reaching out and thinking about some unique message per person?

我还没见过AI个性化在这个阶段能起作用的。

I have not seen AI personalization work at this stage.

通常，它只会告诉对方一些他们自己已经知道的事情，然后他们会觉得：“这看起来像是Claude写的。”

Usually, what it does is it tells them something they already know about themselves, and they're like, "That looks like Claude wrote it."

所以我一般不推荐这么做。

And so I don't usually recommend that.

我还没见过个性化在这里特别重要。

I haven't seen personalization be super important here.

我把要发的完整消息都说出来了。

I said the entire message that I would send.

你其实不需要在里面加入太多个性化内容。

You don't need to actually have a ton of personalization in it.

或者像：“嘿，我要去参加某个会议。”

Or like, "Hey, I'm going to X conference.

我们会在那里做展示。

We're going to be pitching.

你愿意聊聊吗？

Would you be open to chat?"

像这样的内容，即使完全没有个性化，也足够了。

Something like that can be good enough without any personalization at all.

你分享的这些例子都很简单，跟对方没什么关系，基本上就是说点有趣的事情。

All the examples you shared are very simple and don't have anything to do with them, and just say something interesting, basically.

而你不推荐的，基本上就是，对。

And what you don't recommend is, basically, yeah.

你的意思不是要立刻推销，只是想先打个电话聊聊。

The idea you're not trying to sell them immediately, you just want to have a call.

在电话里，我们看看你有没有吸引力。

And on the call, we'll see if you have pull.

如果有，你就能把它变成销售电话。

If you do, you're going to turn it into a sales call.

如果没有，我做什么也改变不了。

If you don't, nothing I do is going to change that.

好的。

Okay.

刚开始找客户约电话的话，你觉得应该先发多少封邮件或者多少条LinkedIn消息？

How many emails/LinkedIn posts should you start with, say, you're just getting started to try to find some calls?

我一般先从LinkedIn开始，因为像你和我聊的这种客户，他们的LinkedIn都挺有意思的。

So I tend to start on LinkedIn, because the kind of person who you and I talk to, they have interesting LinkedIns.

所以如果你主动联系他们，他们就会想，"哦，好吧。"

And so if you're reaching out to someone, they're going to say, "Oh, okay."

这样就能省很多事。

So that's going to do a lot of lifting.

你直接开始就行。

You can just get started.

你每周可以在LinkedIn上加100到150个人。

And so you can add 100, 150 people on LinkedIn per week.

就按这个目标来。

Go for that.

每天加20个，等他们通过好友请求后再发消息。

Add 20 a day, and then message them when they accept the connection request.

如果你每周加100个人，或者发150个请求，我通常的目标是其中30%到40%的人会通过你的好友请求。

And if you're connecting with, I don't know, let's say you connect with 100 people per week, or you send 150, my typical targets for that are 30% to 40% of them should accept your connection request.

然后这些人里，30%到50%会回复，其中一部分会答应。

And then of them, 30% to 50% should reply, and a subset of them should say yes.

大多数人会说：“好的，没问题。

The majority of them should say, "Yeah, sure.

为什么不呢？”

Why not?"

好的。

Okay.

这个基准很棒。

That's an awesome benchmark.

所以如果你达不到这个水平，基本上你的邮件内容就不太管用。

So if you're not at that level, basically your interesting email is not working.

你应该找一些更有趣的——

You should find some more interesting-

如果人们不接受你的请求，那可能是你的个人资料的问题。

It could be your profile, if people aren't accepting your request.

他们可能会看看你，然后说：“你看起来不像是我应该接受这个请求的人。”

They might look at you and say, "You don't look like somebody I should accept this request."

或者，“看起来你好像要向我推销什么。”

Or, "It looks like you're about to pitch me."

或者类似的话。

Or something like that.

或者，如果你有30%到40%的接受率，但人们不回复，那你的消息就是不够有趣。

Or your message just isn't interesting if you're getting 30% to 40% accepts, and then people aren't replying.

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Now that everybody at your company is finally using AI, the question that engineering leaders face is no longer are we using AI, but is it paying off?

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DX会告诉你，AI在哪些方面帮助了开发者，又在哪些地方造成了新的瓶颈。

DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks.

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You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents.

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That's getdx.com/lenny.

假设你已经约到了一个电话，准备进行一次销售通话，比如你的第一次。

So say you've landed a call and you're going to do a sales call, say, your first one.

对于做好这次销售通话，你有什么建议？

What is your advice for doing a great job on the sales call?

销售电话主要分两步。

Mostly two steps in a sales call.

第一步是引导式探索，第二步是概念性的介绍，说明我们可能如何提供帮助。

There's the pull discovery step, and then there's the kind of conceptual pitch of how we might help step.

销售电话背后的理论是，如果你有需求，你会迫不及待地想从我这里得到它。

And so the theory behind a sales call is, again, it's like if you have pull, you're going to rip the thing out of my hands.

我打这个电话不是要拼命说服你购买，像超级推销员一样。

I don't come into this call wired up, ready to try to convince you to buy like a super ant.

不，只是如果你有需求，你会说服我让你购买。

No. It's just if you have pull, you're going to convince me to let you buy.

所以我以放松、期待聊天的态度来对待这个电话。

And so I approach this with the vibe of just waned back, excited to chat.

看看我是否能帮到你。

Let's see if I might be able to help you.

我有一个非常具体的销售电话结构，推荐用来进入探索阶段，然后从探索阶段过渡出来。

And so I have a very specific structure of a sales call that I recommend for getting into discovery and then transitioning out of discovery.

基本上，你开场就说：“嘿，非常感谢你抽出时间。”

Basically, you start the call, "Hey, thanks so much for taking the time."

我很好奇，我猜肯定有很多人联系你。

I'm curious, I'm sure you get a bunch of people reaching out to you.

那你今天为什么愿意跟我通话呢？

Why did you take the call with me today?

这给了他们机会说：“你提到了AI代理，我一直在想这个，一直在等，我看了你的网站，”或者别的什么。

That's a chance for them to say, "You mentioned AI agents, and I've been thinking about this, and I've just been waiting, and I looked at your website," whatever it winds up being.

他们当场就把整个PULL框架给你填完了。

And they fill out the entire PULL framework for you right there.

那是最理想的，然后你可以说：“哦，有意思。

That's ideal, and then you can say, "Oh, that's interesting.

我能再问几个问题吗？”

Can I ask a couple follow-ups?"

但大多数时候他们会说：“我不知道。”

But most of the time they'll say, "I don't know.

是你主动联系我的。

You reached out to me.

很期待听你要说什么。

Excited to hear what you have to say."

你就说，"好。"

Say, "Great."

你利用他们刚才告诉你的信息，说，"好的，太好了。"

You use what they have just told you and say, "Okay, great.

这听起来像是今天通话的一个很好的议程。

That sounds like a great agenda for today's call.

我们可以做这个和那个。

We can do that and that.

你觉得这样可以吗？"

Does that sound good to you?"

得到他们对议程的认可后，你就赢得了向他们提问一些关于他们需求的问题的权利，你可以说，"太好了。"

Get their thumbs up on the agenda, and then you earn the right to ask them some discovery questions about their pull by saying, "Great.

好的，在我们开始议程之前，你介意我问你几个问题，以便更好地了解你的情况吗？

Okay, before we get to those items on our agenda, do you mind if I ask you a few questions to better understand your context?"

这样一来，你就赢得了提问的权利。

And that way, you've earned the right to ask questions.

对他们来说，这不会像审问一样，因为如果是那样的话，他们什么都不会告诉你。

It does not feel like an interrogation to them, because if it does, they're not telling you anything.

好的。

Okay.

我有几个具体的问题。

A few tactical questions.

一个是，这个通话应该尽量持续多长时间？

One is just how long should you try to make this call?

你的邀请应该提前多久发出？

How long should your invite be for?

然后，演示应该安排在什么环节？

And then where does a demo fit in?

你建议在这个电话里做演示，还是另约一个电话来做？

Do you recommend demo on this call or doing a separate call for that?

这在我的日程上几乎总是30分钟的电话。

So this is almost always a 30-minute call on my calendar.

我发现，如果时间块太短，对方在日历上看不到，就不会出现。

Just, I've found smaller calendar blocks, they don't see on their calendar and so they don't show.

所以30分钟，然后演示的话就看情况了。

And so 30 minutes, and then iffy on doing a demo.

如果你还非常早期，可能没有演示可以展示。

So if you're super early, you probably don't have a demo to show.

但到了后期，你也许可以在第一次通话中做一个很短的演示。

But later on, you might have a very short demo in your first call.

我想，因为我在想和Jen的那次对话，她的建议是等一等再做演示。

I guess, because I'm thinking about the Jen conversation I had, and her advice was wait to do the demo.

但那是企业销售类的产品，不像早期阶段，还处于完全假设验证的阶段。

But that's an enterprise sales sort of product, not like an early stage, just full hypothesis phase.

对，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

好的，明白了。

Okay, got it.

怎么判断这次会议开得好不好？

What's a sign that this meeting went well?

是不是那种对方很投入、主动从你这里获取信息的感觉？

Is it this kind of leaning in, pulling it from you feeling?

就是说，你能明确感受到对方的兴趣，或者你能直接说："好吧，你其实没什么兴趣。"

So it's kind of, you're able to surface pull or you're able to say, "Okay, you don't have pull at all.

帮我理解一下为什么这对你不重要。

Help me understand why this isn't relevant to you.

那什么对你重要？"

What is?"

所以会议结束时，你要么得到了完整的PULL框架，明白这个人的兴趣点，而且他们确实在积极争取，要么你就明白了为什么他们没有兴趣。

And so you come away with a either filled out PULL framework of, okay, I understand this person's pull, and they are trying to pull, or you understand why they don't have pull.

这种电话你要打多少次才会觉得，好吧，这里没有吸引力了。

How many of these calls should you do before you're like, "Okay, there's no pull here.

该继续往前走了？

Time to move on"?

我没有一个硬性的标准——我通常会这样做，如果你打了五个电话，每个人都往后靠，什么都没学到，那就说明有问题了。

I don't have a hard-- What I tend to do is, if you have five calls and everybody's leaned back and you learn nothing, then there's a sign that something's wrong.

我见过有人打了上百个电话，还是没搞明白——所以先打五个，然后回头看看你从这些电话里学到了什么。

And I've seen people do hundreds of calls where they still don't -- So do five and then check in and see what you've learned from the calls.

那里有没有吸引力？

Was there any pull there?

我们有没有学到什么有趣的东西？

Did we learn anything interesting?

我最近帮的一个初创公司，他们给银行打了五个电话，完全没感觉。

A startup I was just helping out, they had done five calls into banking, and they just felt nothing.

但其中一个人给他们介绍了一个人，说：对，这个好像跟我们不太相关，但你们可以考虑一下国防公司。

But they got an intro from one of the people who said, "Yeah, this doesn't seem relevant to me, but you might consider defense companies."

然后他们通过那个介绍进入了那个领域。

And they got an intro into that.

他们对国防领域一无所知。

They know nothing about defense.

结果第一次和国防领域的人聊，对方就说：“天哪，你是认真的吗？”

And in the first conversation in defense, the person's like, "Holy, are you serious?"

然后他们就说：“好吧，也许这里有点东西，”于是他们调整了自己的需求假设。

And they're like, "Okay, maybe there's something here," and they changed their pull hypothesis.

感觉你的框架和方法中很大一部分就是对自己诚实，判断这里到底有没有机会。

It feels like a big part of your framework and approach is to just be brutally honest with yourself whether there's something here.

我想很多创始人都会特别兴奋，坚信这是真的，而你的方法就是提供一种验证方式，让你真正看清哪些有效、哪些无效。

I imagine a lot of founders are just so excited and convinced this is real, and your approach is just like, here's a way to validate that and be really real with what's working or not.

对，我觉得这就像是我们是为了学习而销售，而不是为了推销什么。

Yeah, and I think it's thinking of it as we're selling to learn, not really to push something.

对，不是为了推销。

Yeah, not to push.

我们是要去学习的，看看他们是不是真的想买。

We're going to learn, and we're seeing if they try to buy.

如果他们不买，那也没关系，我们学到了东西。

If they don't, cool, we've learned something.

我们可以从那里继续迭代。

We can kind of keep iterating from there.

如果他们买了，那太好了。

If they do, okay, great.

现在我们可能有点眉目了。

Now we might have something.

看看这种情况会不会重复出现。

Let's see if it repeats.

把这种叫做“拉动”的想法真的很聪明，因为你总听说产品市场契合就是感受到拉动。

The whole idea of calling this pull is so smart because you always hear product market fit is you're feeling pull.

你感受到被拉动的感觉。

You're feeling pulled.

这块巨石在把你往下拉。

This boulder's pulling you down.

风在推着你。

The wind is pushing you.

所以这不仅是你要寻找的缩略词，更是一个提醒。

And so not only is it this acronym of what you look for, but it's this reminder.

你要找的是拉力，是某种吸引你的东西。

What you're looking for is pull, something pulling.

对，而且你也能感觉到，我现在是不是在推？

Yeah, and you can also tell, do I feel like I'm pushing right now?

我是不是在说服别人？

Do I feel like I'm convincing?

那是个危险信号，说明要么你心里有疑虑，要么对话出了问题，好，那我们就来弄清楚那是什么。

That's a red flag that something either in your mind or in the conversation is off and, okay, cool, let's figure out what that is.

你想到一个好的销售电话时，有没有什么例子浮现在脑海里？那种感觉是什么样的，看起来是什么样的，推销会是什么样？

Is there an example that comes to mind when you think about a good sales call, what that kind of feels like, looks like, what a pitch would be?

所以你要做的，还是要把他们的需求给引出来。

So what you're trying to do is you're trying to, again, get the pull out of them.

然后他们说：“我想建个网站，但那些典型的拖拽式网站设计工具对我来说太费劲了。”

And so they say, "I'm trying to make a website, but one of those typical point-and-click website design things are just too much effort for me."

所以这里面就有需求了。

So you have something about pull there.

你算是把他们的需求给挖出来了。

You've kind of pulled that out of them.

他们自己也说清楚了。

They've described that.

有意思的是，一旦你知道了他们的需求，你的推销就变得很简单了。

And so the kind of interesting thing is that once you have pull, your pitch is quite simple.

你在这里要做的，不是去描述一个宏大的产品愿景，或者你对这个问题的理论分析。

What you're not trying to do here is you're not trying to describe this massive product vision or your theory of the problem.

你知道他们想做X，但因为Y卡住了。所以在这种情况下，你的推销就是：“好的，听起来你是在找一个能建网站，又不用费劲去搞那些拖拽式工具的东西。”

You know that they're trying to do X, but blocked because of Y. And so your pitch in that case is, "Okay, so it sounds like you're looking for something to make a website without all the hassle of a point-and-click thing.

差不多是这个意思吧？

Is that roughly it?"

然后你用非常非常简单的方式描述它，而不是用很宏大的方式。

And you describe it in a really, really small and simple way, not a really big way.

你用简单的方式描述，然后他们说：“对。

You describe it in a small way, and they say, "Yeah.

听起来就是这个。

That sounds like it.

具体是怎么运作的？

How exactly does that work?

再多说一点。”

Tell me more."

他们从你这里获取更多信息，这时候你就知道开始有戏了。

They're pulling more information out of you, and that's when you know you're starting to be onto something.

那你脑子里是不是在过那个PULL框架的四个要点，想着，好，这真的是他们现在需要且无法避免的东西吗？

And are you in your head thinking through the PULL framework of these four points and just thinking through, okay, is this actually something they need right now and unavoidable?

那他们的替代方案是什么，然后你会把所有这些都过一遍吗？

What are their alternatives, and kind of thinking through all that?

对，其实这些也是我会问的问题。如果他们在最开始我问“你为什么接这个电话”的时候没有告诉我，

Yeah, those are actually the questions I will ask too, which is if they don't tell me at the very beginning when I say, "Why'd you take the call?"

那我就会问一个类似这样的问题：有没有什么事，比如跟你们的QA流程相关的，你们一直想做但用现有的工具、方法、团队什么的做不到的？

Then I'm asking a question that's kind of like- Is there anything as it relates to, I don't know, your QA process that you're trying to do but you've been unable to do with your existing tools, methods, team, whatever, right?

所以那个问题里包含了所有“拉动”的元素，这样他们就能说：“哦，对，其实我们一直想自动化端到端测试，但用现有工具就是做不到，等等等等。”

And so that question has all the elements of pull in it so that they can then say, "Oh, yeah, actually, we've been trying to automate end-to-end testing, but can't do da, da, da, da, da with our existing tools."

然后如果他们给了我一些信息，我脑子里就有这个框架了。我知道很多人其实在通话时会把框架放在文档里，然后实时填写。

And then if they kind of give me some element there, then I have the framework in my mind, and I know a lot of people actually have the framework in a doc during the call, and they're filling it out live.

然后就像，“我觉得我没有那个‘你’。”

And it's like, "I don't think I have the you."

然后你会问一个问题，比如：“好，但如果你现在不做这个，可以吗？”

And then you ask a question, you're like, "Okay, but is it okay if you don't do that now?

有没有什么原因让你必须现在做，还是说可以以后再做的？

Is there some reason you have to do this now, or is this okay to do another time?"

你甚至都不敢问。

And you're scared to almost ask.

你会想："哦，不，这肯定不行。"

You're like, "Oh, no, it's not going to work."

哦，最吓人的问题是："我相信你已经研究过其他方案了。"

Oh, and the scariest one is to say, "Well, I'm sure you've looked into other options.

它们够用吗？"

Are they good enough?"

当你听到他们说："其实，是的，我们可以自己做，而且已经够用了。"

And to hear that one, when they're like, "Actually, yeah, we can do it ourselves, and that's good enough."

但这能防止你再次把市场不需要的产品推出去。

But it prevents you from, again, pushing a product the market doesn't want.

也防止你花上好几年时间试图让它成功。

And just spending years of your life trying to make it work.

这真是——

Which is-

我看起来像60岁，其实才35岁，这不是没原因的，对吧？

There's a reason I look like I'm 60 and I'm 35, right?

别硬推——

Don't push-

你看起来很好，Rob。

You look great, Rob.

你看起来很好。

You look great.

滤镜呗。

Filters.

哎呀，天哪。

Oh, man.

所以这其实触及了一个我们还没具体谈过的挑战，就是人们要决定尝试新东西、买新东西，得跨过很多坎。

So this touches on a, we haven't actually addressed the specific challenge, which is that there's a lot you have to get over for people to decide to try something new and to buy something new.

现状通常都还行。

The status quo is generally fine.

他们有很多优先事项。

They have so many priorities.

他们要处理的事情太多了。

They have so many things they're dealing with.

让人们觉得“我想要这个，我现在就要买”的门槛真的很高。

Just the bar to get over for people to be like, "I want this, I'm going to buy it now," is really high.

这个框架的理念就是要跨过这个坎。

And the idea here of this framework is to get over that hump.

对，就是要找到那些对现状不满意的人，对吧？

Well, it's to find the people for whom the status quo is not okay, right?

就是要找到那些人，大家都说改变很难之类的。

It's to find the people, everyone says change is hard and all this kind of stuff.

你要找的是那些已经在尝试改变的人，他们不需要被说服。

Well, you're looking for the people who are already trying to change, who don't need convincing.

有一种观点认为，你的产品必须比现有解决方案好十倍，才会有人在意。

There's this idea that your product has to be 10 times better than the existing solution for anyone to care.

你怎么看，这个更好。

How do you think about, okay, this is better.

他们试过其他替代方案。

They tried alternatives.

没有一个能完全做到，或者有些做得还行。

None of them do it, or some of them do it okay.

那这个得比现有的好多少他们才会在意，还是说稍微好一点就够了？

How much better does this have to be for them to care, or is it okay if it's just a little bit better?

我觉得Jump的例子就很好，就是那个给理财顾问用的AI笔记工具。

The example with Jump, I think, again, the AI notetaker for financial advisors, is a good one.

他们比其他通用的AI笔记工具好多少呢？

How much better are they than the other generic AI notetakers?

如果那些笔记工具搞不定，而我们能搞定，那我们就比他们好太多了。

Well, if those notetakers don't get the job done and we do, they are infinitely better.

他们解决了别人解决不了的问题。

They unblock something.

所以这就是我的看法。

And so that's kind of how I think about it.

他们现有的选择让他们有多受困？

How stuck are they with their existing options?

所以我不太确定10倍这个说法。

And so I don't know about 10X.

这个说法在我脑子里不太成立。

That thing, that doesn't quite register in my head.

真正的问题是，他们是不是像一根压紧的弹簧，我一出现他们会怎么反应？

It's really, are they a coiled spring, and how do they respond when I show up?

所以我想到像Linear这样的公司，它和Jira竞争。

So I think about a company like Linear who competes with Jira.

不知道你知不知道。

I don't know if you know.

你听说过Linear吗？

Do you know Linear?

所以，我很好奇这个框架是否适用。

So just, I'm curious if it applies through this framework.

据我理解，Linear 经常能赢过 Jira，因为它的体验就是更好。

So in my understanding, Linear wins over Jira often because the experience is just better.

它就是一个漂亮、流畅、精心打造的体验，所以他们能赢得很多客户，因为用起来感觉很好，工程师们真的很喜欢用。

It's just like a beautiful, smooth, well-crafted experience, and so they win a lot of customers because it just feels nice and engineers really like using it.

你觉得这符合 PULL 框架吗，还是说这里面还有其他因素？

Do you feel like that works through the PULL framework, or is there something else going on there?

再说一次，如果我们用 PULL 框架来分析这个情况，那必须成立的是：有一类人，他们想做问题追踪，但他们在问题追踪上想做一些事情，而 Jira 的体验阻碍了他们，所以 Linear 更好的体验对他们来说才真正有意义，对吧？

Again, if we use the PULL framework to analyze that situation, what would have to be true is there's a certain kind of person who is trying to do their issue tracking, but they're trying to do something around issue tracking, and something about Jira's experience is blocking them from doing the way, such that Linear's way better experience is actually relevant to them, right?

我犯过错误，拿这个类比，然后想：‘好吧，我只要进入一个类别，提供更好的用户体验、更好的体验，我就能大获全胜。’然后我把它用在 HR 软件上。

So I've made the mistake of taking that analogy and being like, "Okay, so I can just come into a category with way better UX, way better experience, and I'm going to crush it," and try that in HR software.

我在 HR 软件上试了，结果发现用户体验对买家来说并不重要，所以他们不在乎他们的系统看起来还像在用 COBOL 之类的。

And I tried it in HR software, and it turned out the user experience was not relevant to the buyer, and so they didn't care that their systems look like they're still on COBOL or whatever it is.

所以在那里面，它并不重要。

So it wasn't relevant there.

但再说回来，拉力理论会说，在Jira和Linear的例子里，有一种人被Jira的体验卡住了。

But again, the pull theory would say that basically in the case of Jira versus Linear, that there was a kind of person who was kind of blocked by Jira's experience.

而且我觉得拉力越强，这一切发生和成长的速度就越快。

And I imagine the stronger the pull, the faster all this stuff happens and grows.

我知道Linear花了很长时间才让人们开始使用它、信任它、然后切换过来，所以也许拉力没那么强，因为更多只是“好吧，我可以更快一点，更开心一点”，所以花了更长时间。

I know Linear took them a long time to get people using it, to trust it, to switch, and so maybe the pull, because of maybe there wasn't as much of that blocking and it was more of just like, "Okay, I can just move faster, be happier," it took longer.

你觉得是不是拉力越强，公司增长越快，是这样吗？

Do you find that just the stronger the pull, the faster the company grows, is that-

我见过很多初创公司，从零开始做到某个规模。

I've seen a bunch of startups where they go zero to whatever.

现在大家都从零到无限快得不得了，因为他们找到了这些拉力的点，人们恨不得把产品从他们手里抢过来。

Everyone now is going zero to infinity super fast, and it's because they have found these pockets of pull where people will rip a product out of their hands.

就像现在人们看到那些AI的宣传，就会说：“等等，

And it's like people will see these AI pitches now, and it's like, "Wait a second.

它能瞬间搞定X和Y？”

It can do X and Y basically instantly?"

而且我在企业领域也见过这种情况。

And I've seen that happen in enterprise.

我见过一笔企业交易在两周内就敲定了，就像那个东西……

I saw an enterprise deal close in two weeks, and it's just like that thing did...

我小时候，企业交易要花18个月。

When I was growing up, enterprise deals took 18 months.

搞什么鬼？

What the heck?

我小时候。

When I was growing up.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

好，那我们进入下一步。

Okay, so let's move on to the next step.

所以到这个时候，你已经打了第一个销售电话。

So at this point, you had your first sales call.

我想下一步就是成交了，但有意思的是现在还为时过早。

I imagine the next step is closing the deal, and it's interesting because it's still early.

你可能连产品都还没有。

You may not even have a product.

从“好，我现在就想买”这个阶段开始，接下来会是什么样？

What does that look like going from, "Okay, I want to buy it now"?

你下一步怎么做？

What do you do next?

这要看交易的规模，但你需要带着某种概念和计划回来。

So it's kind of going to depend on the size of the deal, but you want to come back with some sort of a concept and some sort of a plan.

举个例子，我之前提到的那个制药公司，那个向制药行业销售的公司，他出现后就直接向一位制药高管抛出了一个孤注一掷的引荐。

And so, examples of this, so the pharma company that I mentioned earlier, the company selling into pharma He showed up and just threw a Hail Mary on an intro to a pharma exec.

那位制药高管说：“天哪，太感谢你问了。

Pharma exec was like, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking.

我们目前的市场研究是，等等等等等等。”

Our current market research is da, da, da, da, da.

就是太差了，太慢了。

It's just so bad, it's so slow."

创始人就说：“好吧，我这儿连幻灯片都没有。

And the founder was like, "Okay, I don't even have slides here.

我也是第一次听说这个。

I'm just hearing this for the first time.

所以听起来你想要的是一种更快的市场调研，看起来跟现在拿到的差不多，但就是，怎么说呢，在这些方面更好一些。

And so it sounds like you're looking for faster market research that looks like the current research you're getting, but kind of, I don't know, it's just better in these kinds of ways.

大概是这样吗？”

Is that roughly right?"

那位高管就说：“对，就是这样。”

And the exec was like, "Yes, that's exactly it."

然后创始人就说：“好，那咱们就这么办。

And so the founder's like, "Okay, let's do this.

我过几天给你带个样稿过来，看看我理解的方向对不对，然后咱们再商量这是不是你要的，再决定要不要继续推进。”

What if I come back to you in a couple of days with a kind of mock-up of what I think that could look like, and then we can discuss if that fits what you're really looking for, and then decide if we want to move forward."

所以在这种情况下，没有幻灯片，什么都没有。

And so in that case, no slides, no nothing.

他就去用 vibe coding 快速做了一个大概的布局，得到一些反馈，然后说：“好。

Goes and vibe codes a kind of rough layout of what this would look like, gets some feedback on it, says, "Okay.

基于这些，你还需要知道什么才能决定是否要把这个引入你的组织？”

Based on that, is there anything else you need to know to decide whether this is a fit that you want to bring into your organization?"

对方说：“对，价格方面。”

Says, "Yeah, with the price."

然后你可以用一套话术来谈价格，但基本上就这些了。

And then there's a talk track you can use for price, but that's basically it.

好。

Okay.

跟我多讲讲这个价格话术吧。

Tell me more about this price talk track.

PULL 框架有意思的地方在于，它能帮你设定价格的边界。

So the interesting thing about the PULL framework is that it can help you set the bounds for pricing.

那么，完成这个项目的价值是什么？

So what's the value of getting the project done?

或者，替代方案的成本是多少？

Or what are the costs of the alternatives?

所以，就是那些L。

So, the Ls.

那么，更快完成这项市场调研的价值是什么？

So what's the value of getting this market research faster?

或者，你现在花在市场调研顾问上的成本是多少？

Or what is the cost you're currently spending with your market research consultants?

这两者都能告诉你，好的，市场调研的价值是X。和顾问合作的成本是，我不知道，每年5万美元。

Both of those can tell you, okay, the value of market research is X. The cost with consultants is, I don't know, $50,000 per year.

这就给了我一个大致的界限，可以说：“好的，如果我们每年收费5万美元，和你目前的市场调研顾问收费一样，怎么样？”

And so that gives me a rough boundary to say, "Okay, what if we charged $50,000 a year, the same price as your current market research consultants?"

这给价格提供了一个框架，让你的潜在客户觉得直观易懂。

It kind of gives a frame on price that makes it intuitive to your potential customers.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

所以，你写这个收尾步骤的方式，大概分两部分。

So the way you've kind of written about this closing step, there's kind of two parts.

一部分是匹配度，就是这到底合不合适。

There's the fit of just, is this a fit?

然后剩下的就是一堆项目管理的工作，把交易敲定。

And then it's just a bunch of project management to get the deal closed.

我觉得我们在匹配度和项目管理上花了很多时间。

So we've spent a lot of time, I think, on the fit, the project management.

那这方面还有什么重要的要聊的吗？

Is there anything there important to talk about?

你和Jen做的那几期关于销售流程的节目，做得非常好。

So you did a great episode, with Jen, a great couple episodes with Jen on the sales process.

所以在更大的交易、企业级交易中，支持者会有影响力并决定：“是的，我想要这个。”

And so in bigger deals, enterprise deals, there's the champion has PULL and decides, "Yes, I want this."

然后你得做一系列17次演示。

And then you have to do a set of 17 demos.

你得在四个委员会面前卑躬屈膝。

You have to genuflect in front of four committees.

所有这些事情你都得做。

There's all of these things that you have to do.

对于较小的交易，你就不需要做那些事情了。

For smaller deals, you don't have to do that kind of stuff.

可能只是CEO说：“好，没问题。

It might just be the CEO who's like, "Yeah, cool.

下一步你把Stripe链接发给我，我们安排一次上线通话。”

Next step is you send me the Stripe link, and we schedule an onboarding call."

所以项目管理这一步会因情况而异。

And so the project management step will depend.