从“我听过的最蠢点子”到1亿美元年经常性收入：Gamma的崛起内幕 | 授权李（首席执行官）

我要把这个鸡蛋扔给你。

I'm gonna throw you this egg.

这对你有吸引力吗？

Is that compelling to you?

有些人还是会选择退出，但对于那些接住的人，你正在解决他们的实际问题，然后你可以随着时间的推移继续在此基础上发展。

Some people are still gonna opt out, but for the people that catch that, you're solving like a real problem for them, and then you can continue kinda kinda building on that over time.

就像，你给了他们足够的东西，让他们愿意坐下来继续玩你的产品。

Like, you've given them enough so that they'll sit around and, like, keep playing with your product.

这个关于'入职到产出'的比喻太搞笑了，我从来没听过这种说法。

That is a hilarious metaphor I've never heard for for onboarding time to value.

一次专注做好一件事就行。

Just focus on one egg at a time.

再往前追溯的话，最初是什么灵感让你创立了Gamma并发展成今天这样？

Just going even further back, what was the original insight that you had that led to Gamma and what Gamma is today?

在我上一家初创公司被收购后，我回归了老本行做咨询。

After the last startup I was at was acquired, I I went back into kind of my roots, which is consulting.

当时我给早期初创公司提供建议，使用的工具是谷歌幻灯片。

I was advising early stage startups, and the sort of medium I was using was Google Slides.

我记得有次深夜准备第二天会议，花了好几个小时调整版式和布局，反而没时间专注内容本身。

So I just remember this, you know, late night trying to prepare for next day's meeting, trying to format and figure out the right layout and spending hours just trying to get the sort of look and feel right rather than the content itself.

这对我来说完全是本末倒置。

And for me, that just felt completely backwards.

你懂我意思吗？

You know?

我应该把90%时间花在内容上，最多10%用于设计和排版。

I should be spending 90% all the time on the content, 10% maybe on the design and formatting.

所以问题就变成了：是否存在更好的方式？

And so the question just was, you know, what if there's a better way?

如果我们能彻底重构这种形式会怎样？

What if we could reimagine this format from the ground up?

幻灯片作为默认工具已经存在近四十年，是这类场景的首选媒介。

Slides have been around for almost forty years as the default, you know, medium of choice for a lot of this.

于是我们思考了一下，好吧。

And so we thought about, okay.

如果我们有不同的构建模块，不同的基础元素，这样就不会被固定的16:9幻灯片比例限制，我们能给新用户提供什么呢？

If we had different building blocks, different primitives, so you're not locked into the fixed 16 by nine, you know, slide, what could you you know, what could we offer to new users?

这确实是我们这个项目的起点。

And so that was really the the started point of this.

听你这么说，我明白为什么投资者会表示认同了。

Like, hearing this, I could see why investors would be like, you know, like, I guess so.

但幻灯片软件已经存在很久了。

But Slides has been around.

PowerPoint已经有四十年历史了。

PowerPoint has been around forty years.

我理解。

Like, I get it.

你懂我意思吧？

You know?

我明白人们为什么会...是的。

I get why people would be Yeah.

具体来说，人工智能是最初愿景的一部分吗？还是后来才出现的？

And specifically, AI, was that a part of the vision initially, or did AI start to come up?

然后，哇，时机把握得真好。

And then, wow, great timing.

时机确实完美。

Great timing.

虽然最初愿景中并未包含这一点，但精神内核是一致的——我们想让内容创作变得极其快速且毫不费力。

It wasn't part of the original vision, although the spirit was there, which is we want to make it incredibly fast and effortless for people to create content.

因此AI恰如一份神奇的礼物，让我们能沿着既有抱负与愿景实现所有这些目标。

So it just so happened that AI was a magical gift that allowed us to do all those things along the same sort of ambition or vision that we had.

于是我们将它深度整合到所有基础模块中，这些模块早在AI登场前我们就已构建完善。

And, and so we integrated it core to kind of all the building blocks we were already building well before AI was part of the picture.

这真是另一个绝佳案例。

It's such a cool other example.

有太多从前不可行的创意如今借助AI变得触手可及，这为后来者创造了巨大机遇——那些曾被视作不可能建立大生意的领域，AI现在让它成为可能。

There's just so many examples of ideas that were not possible before are now very possible with AI, and it's a great opportunity for people to come after as these like, places, categories people think is an impossible place to build a big business, AI now allows it.

太棒了。

Awesome.

说到这个，我们来聊聊增长历程吧——你们是如何在短短两年多实现从零到1亿美元年度经常性收入的？

Speaking of that, let's talk about the growth journey and how you actually grew from nothing to 100,000,000 ARR in just over two years.

我想我们可以分阶段来谈。

I'm thinking we break it up.

我知道这些里程碑并不绝对清晰，但大致可分为从零到百万、从百万到千万、再到上亿这样的阶段。

I know these milestones aren't that clear, but kind of like zero to a 100,000,000 ARR, one to ten, ten to a 100, something like that.

我们就顺其自然地聊吧。

And let's just kinda see how it goes.

你们是如何获取首批用户的？

How did you get your first set of users?

具体来说，前100个用户是怎么获得的？

How'd you get your say 100 first 100 users?

你是如何从零做到1亿美元年经常性收入的？

How'd you get to a 100,000,000 ARR from zero?

我得说，我们的前100用户情况大不相同。

Our first 100 looks very different, I'd say.

这甚至发生在我们推出AI功能之前。

So this was even pre the sort of AI launch we had.

你知道，像我们这样的产品，前100用户都是靠说服朋友来使用的。

You know, the first 100 users for a product like ours, you're you're trying to convince all your friends to use the product.

任何做过幻灯片的人你都会去接触。

Anybody that's ever made a slide deck you're trying to talk to.

我觉得早期阶段，朋友们想帮你个忙，所以会试用产品。

And I think early on, you know, your friends wanna do you a favor, so they're gonna try the product.

但他们也会对你说谎。

They're also gonna lie to you.

他们会告诉你产品有多棒，然后你查看使用数据却发现没人回来继续用。

They're gonna tell you how great it is, and then you look at the usage and nobody's coming back.

所以我认为我们的前100用户是在产品发布后逐渐艰难获得的。

And so I think our first 100 was sort of, like, gradually hard earned post sort of the product launch.

人们慢慢意识到：好吧，

People learning, like, okay.

这个产品开始变得有点用处了。

This is kind of becoming a little bit more useful.

使用频率仍然很不规律，他们不会每周都回来使用。

Usage was still pretty episodic, so they weren't coming back every week.

然后我觉得，你知道，就在AI产品发布后的那一刻，突然间我们就看到了这种有机增长的发生，用户开始定期回访产品。

And then I think do think, you know, the the moment post sort of the AI launch is where all of a sudden, you know, we saw that sort of organic growth happening, people coming back to the product regularly.

所以那时候甚至不是最初的几百人，而是大概前一万名用户都在初始发布后很短时间内蜂拥而至。

And so that's where it wasn't even the first hundreds, like, probably the first, you know, 10,000 users all came within a pretty short time period after that that initial launch.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我们稍后会讨论货币化定价策略，这显然是实现百万ARR和千万ARR的重要环节。

We're gonna talk about monetization pricing later, which is obviously an important part of actual getting to a million ARR and 10,000,000 ARR.

对。

Yeah.

所以我听到的核心意思是Product Hunt的发布对获取首批约一万用户起到了关键作用。

So what I'm hearing essentially is the Product Hunt launch was a big part of just the first 10,000 ish users.

我知道你们重新发布时还有条推文也起了很大助推作用。

I know there was also a tweet when you first when you relaunched that helped in a big way.

谈谈

Talk about

是的。

Yeah.

当时我们，你知道，我们进行了AI产品的发布。

So when, we, you know, we did our AI launch.

我们并没有选择在Product Hunt上发布AI产品。

We we didn't do our AI launch on Product Hunt.

我们只是基本上就说了句：嘿。

We just we we basically said, hey.

我们就把它发到推特上，看看能不能引发一些病毒式传播。

Let's just put it out on Twitter, see if we can get some virality.

说实话，我们当时想出了一个有点标题党性质的推文。

And, honestly, we we kinda came up with kind of a click baity sort of, you know, tweet.

内容大概是，你知道的，商业中最有价值的技能即将过时。

It was like, you know, the the most valuable, skill in business is about to become obsolete.

所以，你知道，我们是有意为之，想制造一点互动。

And, and so, you know, it was intentional in that we wanted to create a little bit of engagement.

我们知道发一条更具挑衅性的推文能引发人们的参与。

We knew that having sort of a more provocative tweet would allow people to engage with it.

几天后，突然间这条推文开始有点病毒式传播的迹象，互动也大幅增加。

And so, after a couple days, all of a sudden, it started getting a little bit more viral and, a lot more engagement.

我们查看后发现，主要是因为保罗·格雷厄姆评论说：显然幻灯片描述的内容比幻灯片本身更有价值。

And we looked, and it was basically because Paul Graham had commented and saying something like, surely the thing that, the slide deck is describing is more valuable than the slide itself.

对吧？

Right?

当然，你知道，看到这条评论本身就很有趣。

And, obviously, you know, it was fun just to see that comment.

我觉得这条评论出现后，帖子的互动量就更大了。

I think once that comment came through, like, you know, even more engagement on the post.

其实这个帖子的全部意图就是获得这种程度的互动，让更多人能看到。

And then that was really the whole intent of that post was just to be able to have, you know, that level of engagement so that people, you know, have some level of reach.

所以对我来说，这几乎是我重新思考'创始人主导的营销到底意味着什么'的第一个学习时刻。

And so for me, it was almost like a the my first sort of learning moment going back to, you know, what does founder led marketing even mean?

意思是，你究竟要如何突破这些干扰？

It means, like, how do you actually break through the noise?

你要怎样才能让人们甚至愿意参与互动，比如对这样的帖子？

How do you get a chance to have people even engage with, like, a post like that?

其中一部分是文案写作。

Part of that is copywriting.

其中一部分是，比如，讲故事。

Part of that is, like, storytelling.

还有一部分就是要有，比如，合适的视觉内容来分享。

Part of that is just having, like, even, like, the right visuals to share.

所以对我来说，这总是一个需要理解的时刻，嘿。

And so I always for me, kind of a moment just understanding, hey.

所以他们必须把这事做对。

So they gotta do this right.

某种程度上你必须去做那些可能让你不太舒服的事，但这会带来改变。

You kind of you kinda have to do things that maybe you're not super comfortable with, but it makes a difference.

真是个有趣的故事。

Such a fun story.

所以我听到的是，你故意把那个公告设计成有争议性的。

So you intentionally set that announcement up to be controversial is what I'm hearing.

完全正确。

Totally.

是的。

Yeah.

我会说是挑衅性的，有点辛辣。

I'd say provocative, a little spicy.

太酷了。

That is so cool.

本质上，你通过Product Hunt获得了1万用户，然后基本上是一条有争议的推文最终引诱Paul Graham发表了评论。

So essentially, you got to 10,000 users through Product Hunt, and then essentially one controversial tweet that ended up baiting Paul Graham to comment.

太神奇了。

Amazing.

那只是个评论而已吗？

And was it a it was just a comment.

他甚至都没有转发。

It wasn't even him retweeting it.

没有。

No.

只是个评论。

Just a comment.

是的。

Yeah.

然后其他人就会，你知道的，跟风加入。

And then others would, you know, pile on.

是啊。

Yeah.

有趣的是，一条评论能比转发或引用推文更大程度地增加推文的传播范围。

It's interesting how much a comment can increase the distribution of a tweet versus them retweeting it or quote tweeting it.

完全同意。

Totally.

而且，算法总是在变化，所以部分原因只是基于时机、发生方式以及发布者的运气。

And and, of course, the algorithms change all the time, so part of it is just luck based on when it happened, how it happened, who who posted.

我喜欢你用的'创始人主导营销'这个术语，我已经在这里看到它的实践了。

And I you let you use this term founder led marketing, which I love, and I'm already seeing it in action here.

这是你在思考，而不是简单地委托给营销部门的人。

This is you thinking about it's not like delegating to someone in marketing.

这不是雇佣代理机构，而是思考如何基于你创建这家公司的经历和对产品的洞察，讲述一个能突破噪音的故事。

It's not hiring an agency, it's like how do I tell a story that I think will break through the noise based on you building this company, having the insight to build this product?

我想问，关于创始人思考这些事情的重要性，你还有什么认为人们应该了解的吗？

And I guess is there anything more there you think is important for people to hear about the importance of the founder thinking through this stuff?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，现在大多数人可能都熟悉创始人主导销售，这仍然非常重要。

I mean, I think very you know, most people today are probably familiar with founder led sales, which is still very, very important.

我认为在雇佣第一个销售人员或客户经理之前，创始人最好了解需要什么，他们会打造正确的叙述和故事。

I think before you hire your first, you know, salesperson or sale your AE, it's great to for the founder to understand, like, what it takes, and, you know, they're gonna craft the right narrative, the right story.

在我之前的职位上，我是一家初创公司的首席运营官，虽然不是创始人，但加入得很早。

At my previous role, I was the COO at a start up where I was doing a lot of I wasn't founder, but I was early.

所以我帮助创始人经历这些，真正帮助他们与客户或潜在客户会面时说，嘿。

And so I was helping the founders go through this and and really helping go into meetings with a client or or a prospect and saying, hey.

这就是为什么我们的产品很有趣。

This is why, you know, our product is interesting.

我认为，如今有太多AI初创公司要么面向B2C，要么面向专业消费者。

And I think, you know, today, there's there's so many AI startups that are much more either b to c or prosumer.

所以你不一定要和个别潜在客户交谈，但能在营销端真正掌控叙事方向的想法确实非常重要。

And so you're not necessarily talking to individual prospects, but the idea that you can be, you know, really in control of the narrative on the marketing side is really, really important.

我认为，随着时间的推移，这项技能会对你大有裨益，我会描述几个具体方面。

And I think, you know, I'll describe a few things where over time, I think that skill set just really, really helps you.

其一是，如今你自己也有机会成为内容创作者。

One is, like, you know, you have a chance to kinda be a creator yourself these days.

我发现很多创始人都在尝试更积极地使用社交媒体。

I think a lot of founders are trying to, you know, be more active on social media.

我觉得，如果能克服最初那种看到自己发帖时'这感觉不够真实'的尴尬感。

And I think, you know, if you can kind of overcome the initial cringe factor of, like, seeing yourself and post things like, oh, this doesn't, you know, feel authentic.

如果能克服那种初始不适感，你就能开始投入其中。

If you can overcome that initial feeling, you you start investing into, like, okay.

如何成为更好的文案写手？

How do I become a better copywriter?

明白吗？

You know?

如何清晰地表达观点，而不只是耍小聪明？

How do I, articulate something that is, clear, not just clever?

懂我意思吗？

You know?

有句话说得好：当你拥有那种清晰表达能力时，那才是真正重要的。

I think there's that saying where, obviously, if you can have that clarity, that's super important.

大多数人会试图在文案创作上追求极致创意，但这通常不是有效传达信息的最佳方式。

And most people will try to get super, like, creative with their with their copywriting, but that's not usually the right way to break through and communicate something.

那么如何提升自己的文案写作能力呢？

So how do you improve your own copywriting?

这样当你与其他营销人员合作时——比如我们现在与网红合作的情况——你就能设定更高的标准。

And then that allows you to actually have a higher bar when you start working with other marketers or in this case, like, us, like, working with influencers.

对吧？

Right?

如果你与网红和创作者合作，并且能完全理解他们的工作方式，知道什么是好的钩子文案，或是懂得优质帖子的结构——只有当你亲身经历过这些，明白其中的困难，才能真正做到这一点。

If you're working with influencers and creators and you can totally empathize with, like, how they approach that work and you know what a good hook looks like, or you know how, like, a structure or good post, like, you can only do that if you've kind of gone through it a little bit yourself and you know how hard it is.

我觉得太多创始人会直接写些广告味十足的内容，然后交给创作者去推广，这种做法从来都不会奏效。

And I think too many founders will then just say, you know, they'll write something, that just feels so much like an ad, and and then they'll give it to a creator to help amplify, and then that just never works.

对吧？

Right?

因此我认为创始人主导营销的部分意义在于：亲身实践，利用自己的平台。

And so I do think part of founder led marketing is, like, going through this yourself, using your own platform.

初期阶段规模可能非常小。

In the beginning, it's probably gonna be super small.

但随着发展壮大，你会拥有自己的发声平台和受众群体，你的叙事能力也会越来越强。

But as you get bigger, like, you have you have a platform that you have a voice and people listen, and you're gonna get better and better at your own storytelling.

我认为这些都是应该尽早培养的技能，因为你知道自己必须不断进步。

I think these are all skills you should invest in as early as possible because you know you're gonna have to get better and better.

这就像练习一样。

It's like practice.

你必须反复练习。

You gotta practice over and over.

我真的很想深入探讨这个话题，因为你发推分享创建Gamma的经验教训才促成了这次对话。

I I definitely wanna pull on this thread more because you tweeting the lessons you learned building Gamma is what led to this conversation.

我当时正在阅读。

I was reading.

我就想，好吧。

I'm like, okay.

他分享了很多内容，但还有更多我想听的，我们会深入讨论，比你推特上分享的要详细得多。

He's sharing a bunch of stuff, but there's so much more I wanna hear, and we're gonna talk through this and go a lot in in a lot more depth than what you've shared on Twitter.

但我很喜欢这个例子能奏效，促成这次对话。

But I love that that's example of that working, get having this conversation.

那么让我在这里问几个问题。

So let me ask a couple questions here.

首先，作为一个快速成长、忙碌又疯狂的初创公司的创始人兼CEO，你是如何找到时间的？

One is just how do you find time as a founder, CEO of a very fast growing, hectic, crazy startup?

我们有太多事情要做。

We have so much to do.

你是怎么分配时间来做这些的？

How do you just, like, allocate the time to do this?

另外，除了你已经分享的内容外，对于想在LinkedIn和推特上开始分享的人，你还有什么做好这件事的关键经验？

And then any just key lessons you've learned about doing this well beyond what you've already shared for people that are that want to try to start sharing things on LinkedIn and Twitter.

我的建议绝对是先从小规模尝试开始。

My advice is definitely just to try to start small.

不要让这件事变得太令人生畏，以至于你根本不敢开始。

Don't let it become so intimidating that you just don't get started.

对我来说，最初就像随身带着记事本或谷歌文档，我会不断随手记录。

For me, it was like just having a notepad or, you know, Google Doc around in the beginning where I would just constantly jot down.

好的。

Okay.

这是我学到的、观察到的、行之有效的经验，或是那些反直觉却有效的方法，我开始把这些都记录下来。

This is something I learned or something I observed or something that worked well, something that was unintuitive that but but worked, and just start creating a log of that.

当积累到足够多时，我每周都会专门留出几个小时进行更深入的思考。

And then once I had enough of those, then I'd spend basically, every week, I'd block off a few hours to go a little bit deeper.

我会选取许多要点，尝试判断是否足以将其扩展成一篇文章或可以广泛分享的内容。

I take a lot of those bullet points and try to say, is there enough here to turn this into maybe a post or, you know, something that can be shared broadly?

而最初时，我的素材还远远不够。

And in the beginning, I didn't have enough.

那时全是些零散的想法。

It was all sort of scattered thoughts.

但随着时间的推移，你开始积累一些有趣的主题。

But over time, you start accumulating some interesting themes.

接着我会开始对这些内容进行压力测试。

And then I would start stress testing that some of that.

比如我会告诉我的队友们。

So I would tell, you know, my teammates.

比如说，嘿。

Like, hey.

这挺有意思的。

This is something interesting.

你觉得这个有趣吗？

Like, did you find this interesting?

如果数量足够的话，嗯，对。

And if if there were enough, like, oh, yeah.

那我确实没想到，或者说这是我从未听说过的事，我就会开始构思最初的帖子。

That's I I would not have expected that or that's not something I've never heard before, then I then I'd actually start crafting the initial post.

然后你就直接把它发布出去。

And then and then you actually just put it out there.

我认为我学到的是，领英和推特上的受众想要的东西是不同的。

I think what I've learned is, you know, even for LinkedIn versus Twitter, the audiences want different things.

所以你几乎需要用不同的语气，或者说分享的内容也要有所区别。

And so you almost have to then have different tones of voices or, like, you know, even nuggets are sharing.

对我来说，我早期在领英上投入更多，只是因为觉得那里更自然。

For me, I invested much more in LinkedIn early on just because it felt a little bit more natural for me.

后来我就想，好吧。

And then over time, I said, okay.

我要开始为推特准备一些与领英不同的内容。

Well, I'm gonna start packaging certain content for Twitter that's actually different than what I would post on LinkedIn.

有时候在推特上，你会更注重实操细节。

Sometimes on on Twitter, you get even more tactical or even more into the weeds.

我发现这样很有帮助。

And so I found that that to be helpful.

但说实话，我还在学习阶段。

But honestly, I'm still learning.

所以每次你发布内容，就会回顾。

And so, like, every time you post, you go back.

每隔几周你就会去说，好吧。

You know, every couple weeks, you go and say, okay.

哪些内容真正获得了互动？

What things are actually being engaged with?

比如，这些内容是否真正创造了价值——理想情况下，你创造的价值足以让人们收藏、分享或转发。

Like, are things actually creating like, ideally, you're creating enough value where people are either bookmarking it, sharing it, retweeting it.

懂吗？

You know?

这些迹象表明其中存在有价值的东西。

These these things that are signals for there's something valuable there.

然后你就回去开始整理自己的精华内容，你知道的，这些就是我的明星帖子。

And, and then you just go back and you start call you're collecting your own sort of, you know, these are my all star posts.

比如这些就是我真正突破的内容。

Like, these are the ones that I've actually, you know, broken through.

然后你回去尝试理解，好吧。

And then you go back and try to understand, okay.

我认为那篇帖子真正有用的地方是什么？

What about that post do I think was actually useful?

是实际内容本身吗？

Is it the actual content?

是内容结构的问题吗？

Was it the structure of the content?

是某种反其道而行的建议吗？

Was it some sort of contrarian advice?

然后你开始，你知道的，把这些主题性地归类，这样每周头脑风暴时，你就有个现成的素材库可以参考。

And then you start, you know, thematically bunching that together such that as you're brainstorming every week, you just have a good sort of bot you know, body of work to to work off.

这真是太有趣且有价值了。

This is so interesting and valuable.

让我复述几个我听到的要点，这些很容易被忽略。

So let me mirror back a few of the lessons that I heard here that I think is easy for people to miss.

第一点就是分享什么内容。

So one is just what to share.

我听到的是——我完全同意这点，也是我努力实践的——关注你学到的东西、觉得有趣的事物、对你来说反直觉的发现，就像建立个文档专门记录这些。

What I heard here, and I completely agree with this, and this is what I try to do is pay attention to things you've learned, things that you find interesting, things that are unintuitive to you, just like have a doc and just put these there.

每当你学到新知识或发现有趣事物，就把它添加到文档里。

Anytime you learn something, find something interesting, just add it to the doc.

或者记录'这个我之前没听说过'也很不错。

Or hey, I haven't heard before is a good one too.

本质上就是，如果你觉得有趣，社交媒体上的人也会觉得有趣。

So it's essentially just like, if you find it interesting, people on social media will also find it interesting.

一种方法是实时分享，这正是我尝试做的。

One approach is to share it as it's happening, which is what I try to do.

就像这样：'我刚用Clock Code学到这个，快来看看！'

Just like, oh, I just learned this thing with Clock Code and check it out.

或者存起来发一篇长文。

Or save it up for a big long post.

另一个有趣的点，我之前从未听说过，我在LinkedIn和Twitter上发布不同的内容。

The other interesting, I've never heard this before, I've post different things to LinkedIn and Twitter.

我只是复制粘贴同样的内容。

I just copy and paste the same thing.

我很欣赏你为两个平台准备不同内容的方式。

I love that you do something different for the two platforms.

我想我们都有种直觉，就是受众群体不同。

I think we all kind of have intuition that there's just different audiences.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果你从根本上明白这点，那么问题就在于，如何用正确的方式包装故事，让目标受众乐于接受？

And so if you know that kinda fundamentally, then the question is, you know, how do you package up the story the right way so that there is, you know, the audience is is ready to receive it?

我认为这会因创作者类型、发布者身份，当然还有内容本身而有所不同。

And I think this can differ by, you know, by the type of creator or the founder, whoever's posting it, and and, of course, the actual content itself.

所以对我来说，我还在调整策略，但我发现直接从一个平台复制粘贴到另一个通常行不通。

And so for me, I'm still tweaking, but I do find that just copy and pasting, you know, from one to the other doesn't usually work.

这真的像是...你需要先进入正确的心态，比如：好吧。

It it it really like, you almost need to be in the right mindset of, like, okay.

我认为在Twitter上什么会更吸引人？

What do I think will be more engaging on Twitter?

那在LinkedIn上又该发什么更有效？

And then what do I think will be more engaging on LinkedIn?

然后呢，就是测试一堆东西，看看哪些实际有效，再回头稍微调整一下。

And and then kind of, you know, test test a bunch, see what actually works, go back and and reiterate a little bit.

如果让你总结一条推特和领英的区别，你可能会说推特上的内容更注重实操性。

So if you had, like, one bullet point tip for what works on Twitter versus LinkedIn, you shared maybe more tactical on on Twitter.

你还能分享更多细节吗？

Is there anything more there you can share?

对。

Yeah.

我发现推特上的内容通常更偏向实操性，甚至常常反主流。

I I that's what I found is, like, tactical, oftentimes more contrarian, on Twitter.

而且我觉得技术性也很强。

And and also, I would say technical too.

人们真的很想知道细节，就是那些深入技术层面的东西。

People really like to know you know, again, going into getting going back to, like, getting into the weeds.

比如，这是否让我觉得可以复制的方案？

Like, is this something I feel like I could replicate?

如果只是给些笼统的套话，那就毫无可信度可言。

And I'm not gonna give you like, there's no credibility if you just give, like, a blanket statement or something that feels generic.

我确实需要了解具体细节。

Like, I I really need to know.

要是能展示数据指标就更好了。

If you could show me the metrics even better.

我就是这么认为的。

I feel like that.

与LinkedIn相比，它更多时候更像是，你知道的，要么更具抱负性，要么就像某个在当下感觉相关的话题或主题。

Versus, like, LinkedIn, it's it's more oftentimes more even just, you know, either more aspirational or aspirational or like a like a a topic or a theme that just feels like relevant at that point in time.

你可以做出更广泛的陈述。

And you can just kind of make more of a, you know, broader statement.

它不需要那么战术性。

It doesn't need to be as tactical.

它更像是鼓舞人心的。

It's more like inspirational.

就像是，哦，好吧。

It's like, oh, okay.

比如说，现在我需要去多了解一些关于定价和包装的知识。

Now I need to go and learn a little bit more about pricing and packaging, for instance.

这可能就是某人需要的那种火花，而且，你知道，不需要完全详细说明。

And that could be the sort of spark that somebody needs, and, you don't need to, you know, spell it completely out.

部分原因还在于LinkedIn上你无法真正进行话题串连。

Part of it is also that on on LinkedIn, you can't really do threads.

所以，你知道，发布超长形式的帖子不太实际。

And so, you know, doing like a super long form post isn't as practical.

也许未来会改变，那些战术性的部分，那个元素可能会真的发生变化。

Maybe that changes in the future where maybe the the tactical pieces, you know, that element might might actually change.

最后一点是你提到你会专门预留时间。

And last piece is you said you just block off time.

你每周有固定的时间来做这件事吗？

Is there like a specific time of the week you do this?

实际上你怎么做呢，因为大家都说'哦，当然'。

How do you actually because everyone's like, oh, sure.

我会预留时间，然后，又不知道了。

I'll block off time and then, don't oh, know.

好吧。

Okay.

但我实际上还得做其他所有事情，所以这次就不用了。

But I actually gotta do all this other stuff, so I'm not gonna use it this time.

哦，也许下周吧。

Oh, maybe next week.

对我来说，通常是一天中的两个时段。

For me, it's usually two times of the day.

清晨第一件事和晚上最后一件事。

Very first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

部分原因是因为孩子，我几乎需要时间，但完全没有干扰。

And partly is because of kids, it's almost like I need time, but there's just zero distraction.

而且房子里没有噪音，所以我才能真正思考。

And there's no noise in the house, and so I can actually think.

然后，你知道，我觉得早晨是关于'你在哪里寻找灵感？'

And and then, you know, I think in the mornings, it's about where are you finding inspiration?

比如，你在哪里，你对什么话题充满热情？

Like, where where are you like, what are what are topics you're energized by?

而我觉得晚上是关于反思的。

And then I think at night, it's about reflection.

比如，你那天具体经历了哪些事情？

Like, what are the things you actually went through that day?

你几乎可以翻开日历，然后说，好的。

You can almost pull up your calendar and be like, okay.

我和X、Y、Z这些人聊过，这些对话中有哪些可能相关的内容？

I talked to x y and z people, and was there anything from those conversations that might be relevant?

这就是需要，你知道，写下其中一些事情的地方。

That's where, you know, write some of those things.

这更像是对实际发生事情的回顾。

It's more of a a recap of of actually what happened.

而让我不觉得这是某种尴尬自我推销或自负行为的原因是，这些都是我学到的实用知识，最终对他人有帮助，评论区的人会说，哦，这真的很酷很有用。

And what I what helps me to not feel like this is some cringey self promo egotistical stuff is just it's useful stuff that I've learned that ends up being helpful to people, and people in the comments are just like, oh, that is really cool and useful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这不像是在自我推销。

It's not like self promotion.

不是那种'看我多厉害'的感觉。

It's not just like, look how amazing I am.

也不是'快来看看我的超棒产品'。

Look at check out my amazing products.

而是，这是我学到的东西。

Like, here's the thing I learned.

你可能会觉得有用。

You might find it useful.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

我认为，你知道，一种思考方式是，创始人主导的销售本质上始终是关于价值交换的。

I I think, you know, one way of thinking about it you know, with, like, founder led sales, it's it's always about, like, exchange of value.

对吧？

Right?

你要能让客户感受到他们获得了一个出色的产品。

You want to be able to give, you know, them, the customer, this feeling that they're getting an amazing product.

作为交换，他们会为此支付费用。

In exchange, they're gonna pay you money for it.

我觉得在创始人主导的营销中，这种心态更像是你想给人们提供大量内容。

I think with, like, founder led marketing, it's almost this mindset of you wanna give people a ton of content.

可能这些内容本身就具有价值。

Maybe it's like, you know, a value in the content.

所以你分享的东西，也许是某个秘密策略，或者你给了他们一些本身就蕴含价值的东西。

So you're sharing something, maybe some, you know, some secret tactic or, you know, you're giving them something where they you know, they're they're inherently there's value in it.

而作为回报，你会获得某种善意。

And in exchange, you sort of get goodwill back.

你不一定能直接获得金钱回报。

You're not necessarily getting money back.

你获得的是善意。

You get goodwill.

他们会关注你。

They're gonna follow you.

他们会参与互动你的帖子。

They're gonna engage with their post.

他们会向其他人推荐。

They're gonna tell others about it.

随着时间的推移，你可以用这些积累的好感度来换取实际的产品讨论和宣传，他们会帮忙放大这些消息。

And then over time, you can exchange maybe some of that goodwill for, like, actually talking about my product and, like, announcing it, and and they're gonna help amplify the news.

我觉得这很神奇，你通过长期提供大量价值而不求即时回报，就能持续积累这种好感度。

And I think that's magic where you kinda kinda bank the goodwill for a long period of time by providing just a ton of value with no expectation of anything immediately in return.

每当有人为这类问题困扰时，我总会推荐他们看一本书。

The book I always point people to when they're when they're struggling with this sort of thing and, like, okay.

比如做了这些却没人喜欢、没人在意、毫无效果时，有本斯科特·普瑞斯菲尔德（我记得是这个名字）写的书叫《没人想读你的垃圾》。

Did this and no one liked, no one cared, didn't do any good, is there's a book by Scott Pressfield, I think is his name, called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit.

对。

Yeah.

这书名简直一针见血。

Which is exactly what is right.

确实没人想读。

Nobody wants to read it.

想让人们在乎的门槛非常高。

The bar for people to care is very high.

有太多内容需要阅读和消化了。

There's so much stuff to read and process.

这本书给了你一个很好的视角：门槛极高，而且没人想读你的垃圾。

And so this book gives you a really good lens of just like, okay, the bar is very high, and nobody wants to read your shit.

所以你必须非常努力才能让它变得非常好。

So you have to try really hard to make it really good.

很好的提醒。

Great reminder.

是的。

Yep.

我们会在节目笔记里附上链接。

We'll link to that in the show notes.

好的。

Okay.

让我们回到Gamma的增长话题上来。

Let's get into let's come back to the growth of Gamma.

我们已经讨论过如何获取最初的几万用户，包括通过Product Hunt发布、重新设计用户引导流程使其充满魔力，以及那条引发争议的推文——Paul Graham的评论带来了不少热度。

So we've talked about how you got your first tens of thousands of users essentially, product hunt, rethinking onboarding, making it really magical, and then this very controversial tweet that Paul Graham commented created some buzz.

接下来我们聊聊下一阶段，或许...我也不确定。

Let's talk about the next phase and maybe I don't know.

能告诉我们那个阶段的年经常性收入(ARR)吗？比如从1000万到1亿这个范围？

Tell us kind of the ARR at that point through a 100,000,000, just like broadly?

我们应该了解些什么？

What should we know?

当我们ARR达到约1000万美元时，我有个强烈感受：我们需要找到持续放大Gamma影响力的方法。

So when we got to about 10,000,000 in ARR, I think there's this feeling for me, which is we we knew we needed ways to help just continue to amplify, you know, and spread the word about Gamma.

我认为产品的有机传播效应已经显现——病毒式传播的势头已经形成。

I think it was already working in terms of the organic virality virality was there.

因此，我们确实觉得是时候开始放大这些方面了。

And so we do we did feel like it was time to start amplifying some of this.

我认为我心中主要的障碍是，我们最初的品牌在某种程度上拖了我们的后腿。

And I think the main blocker of my mind that I started feeling was that our initial brand was sort of holding us back.

我想很多人会质疑品牌重塑是否有价值。

And I think a lot of people will discount, you know, whether or not a rebrand is valuable.

我认为有时候确实有价值，有时候则不然。

And I think sometimes it is, sometime sometimes it isn't.

对我们来说，我们考虑了几个不同的因素。

For us, you know, there's a few different things we looked at.

首先，我们最初的品牌更像是一个临时品牌，因为我们在2020年底、2021年初公司成立时就创建了它，那时我们需要一个品牌，以便在建设过程中至少能与人分享。

So one, our initial brand was was almost more of a placeholder brand because we created it the moment we sort of incorporated the company, which was, again, like, late twenty twenty, 2021 where we needed something so that as we built, we could at least share it with people.

我们可以搭建一个登录页面，感觉像是，好吧。

We could put up a landing page and just feel like, okay.

你知道，这里有些东西，但我们并没有投入太多。

You know, there's something here, But we didn't invest a whole lot into it.

所以它在品牌DNA方面相当有限。

And so it was pretty limited in sort of what I call kind of the DNA of the brand.

艺术指导的范围非常有限，没有太多内容。

There wasn't that many like, the art direction was very limited in scope.

在声音和语调方面也没有太多内容。

There wasn't much when it came to, like, voice and tone.

所以，你知道，这是一个我们觉得足以开始的品牌，但它不具备可扩展性。

And so, you know, it was it was something that we we knew was good enough to start, but it wasn't scalable.

当我思考可扩展性时，这几乎就像你可以提取一个品牌的基因要素并进行大量复制。

And when I think about something that could be scalable, it's almost like you can take the ingredients of a brand and replicate it a ton.

就像这种DNA特质，你可以围绕它创造海量内容，同时保持整体协调一致。

Like, you're kind of you know, this this DNA is something where you can you can imagine creating tons of content around and all feeling pretty cohesive.

我认为这必须通过设计来实现。

And I don't I think that needs to be done by design.

就是要认真思考每一个细节元素。

Like, you're really think being thoughtful about every single element.

比如你想要采用什么样的艺术方向？

Like, what is the art direction you wanna go with?

品牌的声音和语调应该是怎样的？

What is the voice and tone?

这样当你创作成千上万的文案时，所有内容都能保持协调统一。

Such that as you're creating, you know, thousands of pieces of copy, it all feels pretty cohesive.

所以我们重新回到起点，花了数月时间重新思考品牌定位。

And so we kinda went back to the drawing board, and we spent many months kind of rethinking what would be the, you know, the brand.

我们长期愿景究竟是什么？

What is what is this this vision that we have longer term?

我们的创意总监内部与Smith and Diction合作，这家优秀机构曾帮助Perplexity等公司完成品牌重塑或初始品牌建设。

Our creative doctor internally partnered with Smith and Diction, an amazing agency that has helped, you know, what you know, folks like Perplexity also do their rebrand or their initial brand.

我们花费数月精心打造品牌核心DNA，并确保其具备高度可复制性。

And we work we have spent many months just, like, really trying to craft kind of what we think is, like, the core DNA of the brand and doing so in a way that we could replicate it as much as possible.

复制环节之所以重要，是因为随着规模扩大，你将需要创造海量内容。

Replication piece of it comes into play because as you start scaling, you're gonna have to create a ton of content.

你在社交媒体上的自有内容，比如效果营销的广告，以及为影响者提供的可在其内容中使用和展示的素材。

Your own content on social media, ads on you know, for performance marketing, assets for influencers to be able to use and showcase in their content.

于是你从零散的小内容突然转变为每周测试成千上万的创意素材。

And so you're going from, like, you know, tiny pieces of content to all of a sudden, every week, we're testing thousands of pieces of of creative.

如果对复制过程中保持统一风格没有信心，这事就做不成。

And you cannot do that if you don't feel confident that as you're replicating, like, you you have that sort of cohesive feel.

所以我们意识到这是必要的，也因此投入了大量资源——结果比我想象的更昂贵、更耗时。

So for us that we realized it was gonna be necessary and it's why we invested so much and end up being, I mean, way more expensive, way more time consuming than I would have imagined.

但现在回头看，我认为这是正确的投资，当时确实是做这件事的最佳时机。

But I think coming, you know, on the other side of it being the right investment, feeling that that was the right time to do it.

我很欣赏你们做了这么多看似不可能成功的事情。

I love how many things you did that feel like this wouldn't this would will not work out.

在演示工具领域创业，在规模扩张中期进行全面品牌重塑，产品上线后还彻底重构——相当于重新思考了整个项目。

Building a startup within the presentation space, doing a whole rebrand in the middle of scaling, Also just reworking the entire product after you launched and just like rethinking the whole thing.

所有这些事发生时大家总说'不该这么做'，但有趣的是你们最终都做成了。

Like all these things and everyone's always like, no, this is not how we went and interestingly worked out for you guys.

我想再聊聊品牌重塑的事。

I want to come back to the brand stuff.

但你们早期最有趣的增长方式之一是网红营销——虽然很多人都在谈论这个话题。

But one of the most interesting ways you guys grew early on was influencer marketing, which a lot of people hear about and talk about.

但我很少听到具体执行方法和真正有效的策略。

I don't I haven't heard of much of, like, how to actually do this and what actually works.

先谈谈这个整体增长杠杆，然后我想了解你们具体用了哪些工具？

Talk about that as a broad growth lever for you guys, and then I wanna get into just, like, what tools did you use?

实际上谁在那件事上真的帮了大忙？

Who actually was really helpful there?

就像是类似这样的情况。

It's like something like that.

所以，对，给我们讲讲整体情况吧。

So, yeah, just give us the big picture.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为很多创始人都以为做网红营销几乎是件一蹴而就的事。

I think a lot of founders assume that with influencer marketing, it's it's almost like turnkey.

你划拨出一笔预算。

You set aside a budget.

你找几个内容创作者。

You find some creators.

你策划好合适的活动或找准时机，一切就都搞定了。

You figure out the right campaign or the right moment of time to do it, and it's all it's all done.

你就万事俱备了。

You're you're ready to go.

但现实情况是，回到创始人主导的营销思维，如果你能深度参与整个过程，才能真正为成功奠定基础。

And I think the reality is, like, going back to, like, this founder led marketing mindset is like, well, you're gonna set yourself up for success if you actually are super involved in that entire process.

所以对我们而言，这意味着所有初期合作的网红，都是我亲自手动对接的。

So for us, what this meant was, like, all the initial influencers, I onboarded manually myself.

我们会寻找——我会花时间——我会和每个网红单独通话，确保他们理解Gamma的品牌理念和产品使用方法。

I we would find I would spend time I would jump on a call with each one of them so that they understood what Gamma represented, how to use the product.

你希望他们能用他们自己的声音讲述你的故事。

You want to be able to have them tell your story, but in their voice.

对吧？

Right?

如果你不愿意投入，他们就做不到这一点。

And they can't do that if you're not willing to put in that investment.

所以我们花了很多时间，虽然我的职责不是教他们如何推销Gamma产品，但确保他们理解Gamma是什么产品是我的责任。

And so we would spend a lot of time, like, going through it wasn't my job to tell them how to pitch Gamma, but it was my job to make sure that they understood what Gamma was as a product.

我们投入大量时间，比如我带着他们了解产品，他们提问，我们一起头脑风暴寻找切入点，我则提供初步反馈，比如‘这个不错’。

And so we'd spent a lot of time, like me, just walking through the product, them asking questions, us, like, just kinda brainstorming what could the hooks be and me just giving them some initial feedback and, like, saying, oh, yeah.

这个点子我很喜欢。

This one, I love that.

我觉得对你的受众会很有效，但不想显得太说教。

I figured it's gonna work great for your audience, but not trying to be super prescriptive.

我们合作了大量微型意见领袖，他们粉丝量不大，但致力于为受众持续提供价值。

And working with a ton of micro influencers, people that don't have massive followings but are committed to giving going back to giving value to your audience.

他们真心实意地想为粉丝创造价值。

Like, they're committed to giving value to their audiences.

他们希望能展示自己真正在使用或愿意使用的工具。

They want to be able to showcase tools that actually they would use or they are using.

如何以真实的方式做到这一点呢？

And how do you do that in an authentic way?

这种东西是装不出来的。

Like, you can't really fake that.

你真的需要花时间去做这件事。

You really need to spend the time doing that.

就像你引导客户一样，你也要用同样的方式引导影响者。

And just like you would onboard a customer, you onboard an influencer the same way.

你希望他们成为你团队的延伸。

You want them to be an extension of your team.

我认为他们能感受到你是否愿意投入工作。

And I think they can feel whether or not you're willing to put in the work.

如果你不愿意，他们就会把它当作普通项目，完成就完事了。

And if if you're not, then they're just gonna treat it like, you know, any other project, ship it, and be done with it.

如果你投资这段关系，猜猜会怎样？

If you invest in that relationship, you know, guess what?

他们会回来再次为你发布内容。

They'll they'll be back to actually post about you again.

突然间，你就建立了这种可以随时间发展的关系。

And, like, you're all of a sudden having this sort of, you know, this relationship that actually you can build over time.

我认为这才是真正的魔力所在。

I think that's really where the where the magic is.

太多人忽视了最初这个环节的重要性。

Like, too many people discount that initial piece.

这太棒了。

This is awesome.

明确地说，影响者营销本质上就是让在TikTok、Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn等平台有粉丝的人以某种方式为你的产品做推广。

To be clear, influencer marketing, essentially, a person with a following on, say, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever gets paid in some way to promote your product.

这就是你的描述方式。

That's how you describe it.

这是理解网红营销最简单的方式。

That's the simple way to understand influencer marketing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是最简单的方式，而且我认为，你知道，这里面肯定有不同的层次。

So it's definitely the simple way, and I I'd say, you know, there's definitely different, you know, levels.

我觉得很多人想到网红营销时，他们会想到那些大牌潮流创作者，比如拥有百万粉丝的人。

I think a lot of people think influencer marketing and they'll think, you know, these these big trendy creators, people that have, like, a million followers, for instance.

而且，这些想法是，好吧。

And, there are the ideas that, okay.

我们要划出一大笔预算。

We're gonna carve out a really big budget.

我们要选择五六个我们认为真正是领域内风向标的人，然后把所有钱都投进去，让他们来谈论我们的产品。

We're gonna, you know, choose like five or six that we feel like a really like the taste makers in the space and put all of our money into, like, just help, you know, having them talk about our product.

而我认为通常这种方式是错误的，因为其中很多人虽然拥有大量粉丝。

And I I think usually this is this is kind of the wrong approach because many of them, you know, they do have massive audiences.

对你来说，你基本上就是给他们一个脚本照着念，这立刻就会让人觉得是个广告。

And for you, you're basically you like you basically give them a script to read and it immediately feels like an ad.

对吧？

Right?

比如，他们感觉那个产品跟他们没有任何实质性的关联。

Like, they don't feel like, like, that product is not connected really to them in any way.

那只是他们这周碰巧和你合作的东西，之后他们就会继续自己的生活。

It's just something that they're you know, for this week, they happen to be working with you, and then they move on with their life.

这从来不会让人觉得自然或真实，而且你还为此浪费了一大笔钱。

And it never feels organic or authentic, and you wasted a ton of money doing so.

我认为你更应该做困难但难以规模化的事，比如找到成千上万的微型意见领袖，他们的受众可能真的需要你的产品。

I think you're much better doing the hard thing, which is hard to scale, but it's like finding the thousands of micro influencers that have an audience where your product maybe is actually useful.

举个例子，对我们来说，早期可能是教育工作者。

And for instance, you know, for us, like, early on, it'd be, you know, educators.

这些人每天的工作中有一部分就是制作幻灯片，因为他们需要吸引学生。

People that, for them, part of their job is creating slides every day because they need to engage their students.

所以对他们来说，一个能节省大量时间的工具是他们乐意谈论的东西。

And so, like, for them, you know, having a tool that actually saved them a ton of time was something they love talking about.

如果你能找到这样的群体——我们称之为回音室——比如教育工作者群体，老师们喜欢向其他老师推荐他们爱用的产品。

And if you can find some of these pockets, we we call them echo chambers, where if you find a pocket like educators, teachers love telling other teachers about products they love using.

暑假期间，他们会聚在一起讨论：

During summer break, they all come together and talk about, okay.

有哪些东西能真正提升我下个学期的工作效率？

What are the things that are gonna actually improve, you know, my job next next school season?

当然，在这次AI浪潮中，很多讨论都是关于：

And, you know, obviously, during this AI wave, a lot of those have been, okay.

有哪些AI工具？

What are the AI tools?

简直帮我节省了大量时间。

Like, just saved me a ton of time.

所以如果你能真正利用这些回音室效应的小圈子，那就更好了。

And so if you can start actually tapping into these pockets of, like, echo chambers, that's even better.

就是说，不一定非得是那些光鲜亮丽、众所周知的网红。

Like, that it doesn't have to be this flashy, you know, like, well known, influencer.

实际上就是那些拥有忠实受众的人，人们真正信任他们说的话，这太棒了。

It's actually just this person that has an audience of where people, like, really trust what they say, and, and that's amazing.

最终就会形成那种可以极速传播的燎原之势。

That that ends up becoming the sort of, you know, wildfire that can spread really, really, really fast.

这些人能拿到多少钱？

And what's, like, the dollar amount these folks get?

大概几百到几千美元左右吧。

It's like a few $100, few thousand bucks, something like that.

对。

Yeah.

几百到小几千。

Few 100 to low thousands.

低单位数的千位数。

Low single digit thousands.

那你是怎么找到这些人的？

What are how do you find these folks?

他们用工具吗？

Are there tools they use?

是不是就像一大堆手动搜索和查找的工作？

Is it just like a bunch of manual searching and and looking?

是的。

Yeah.

最开始的时候，全部都是手动操作。

In the very beginning, it was all manual.

做了很多冷启动的外联。

A lot of cold outreach.

后来我们最终找到了几种不同的解决方案。

And then we ended up finding a couple different things.

一个是First Collab平台，这是家YC旗下的公司。

One is a platform, a YC company called First Collab.

他们做得非常出色。

That has been amazing.

他们基本上帮你处理所有自动化外联工作，而且你还可以协助他们建立创作者的不同档案或角色画像。

They basically do all of the automated outbound for you, Plus, you can help them, you know, actually create profiles or personas of of different creators.

比如说，教育工作者是一类，然后他们会根据这个画像去帮你找到所有合适的创作者。

So, like, for instance, educators being one, and then they'll go out and actually, you know, based on that profile, find all the right creators for you.

所以他们真的很棒，合作起来非常愉快。

So they've been amazing, really great to work with.

此外我们还找到一些小机构来协助增强这方面的工作。

And then we've also found small agencies to also help kind of augment that.

比如我会寻找那些非常年轻且有冲劲的机构。

Like, I look for, you know, agencies that are super young and hungry.

这些人，你知道的，天生就擅长社交媒体，是社交媒体的原住民。

These are people that, you know, are are social they're native to social media.

而且他们真的非常了解它。

And know, they really understand it.

他们确实能够吸引那些，你知道的，非常优秀的创作者一起合作。

And they can really be able to bring in creators that, you know, are great to work with.

我认为部分原因是，如果你发现创作者很好合作，其他一切都会变得容易。

And I think part of it is, like, if you find creators are great to work with, every everything else becomes easy.

所以我们已经有了一些成功案例。

So we've had a few.

一个是英国的AKG Media，他们合作起来也非常棒。

One is AKG Media on actually, on The UK, and they've been fantastic to work with as well.

所以你可以找到几种不同的方式，要么通过代理机构，要么通过平台，来帮助你真正扩大规模。

So you kinda find a few different things, either agencies or platforms that can help you actually scale this thing up.

当这些人发布内容时，他们通常会明确标明这是付费推广。

And these when they post, they're generally transparent about this as a paid promotion.

对吧？

Right?

他们不会假装'我偶然发现了这个工具，然后爱上了它'。

They're not just pretending I found this tool, and I love it.

酷。

Cool.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

没错。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

那么，在10到100的增长阶段，影响者营销这一杠杆对你们的增长产生了多大影响？

And so how about how much impact did this lever of influencer marketing have on your growth, say, 10 to 100?

这是除了口碑传播之外最大的增长杠杆吗？

Like, is this the biggest lever of growth other than just word-of-mouth?

人们会持续分享它吗？

People continue to share it?

是的。

Yeah.

口碑传播绝对是最主要的。

So, word-of-mouth has definitely been the biggest.

我们观察了各类新订阅用户的增长情况。

So we look at kind of all kind of new subscriber growth.

其中超过50%都来自口碑传播。

Over 50% of this is is word-of-mouth.

要么是人们直接搜索，直接输入gamma.app访问，要么是通过搜索输入gamma这类品牌关键词来寻找我们。

It's either people searching, you know, direct, coming direct, entering gamma.app, or going through search and and typing in gamma, like a branded keyword search, where they're looking for gamma.

他们听说过gamma。

They've heard about gamma.

但我认为对我们来说，社交媒体尤其是网红，始终是一个放大器。

But I think for us, social media and influencers specifically has always been an amplifier.

所以每次我们投资网红营销时，实际上都能看到口碑效应进一步扩大。

So every time we invest in influencer marketing, we actually see word-of-mouth increase even more.

而且这总是显而易见的。

And it's always like you can just you can just see it.

基本上，只要你投入一点资金，就能看到人们通过网红渠道进来，口碑效应实际上会在此基础上再带来1.5倍的新用户，这种现象非常有趣。

Like, basically, anytime you spend, you know, a little bit of money, you start seeing people come through influencer, the word-of-mouth factor is actually one point it will get another 1.5 additional users on top of that, which has been really interesting to see.

我认为部分原因在于我们认识到——虽然我们大概理解——网红营销之所以如此有效，是因为我们都了解邓巴数理论，即每个人大约有150人的社交圈。

And I think part of this is just recognizing that And I think we kind of understand it, but with influencer marketing, because why it's so effective, we all know Dunbar's number, which is you have this number of 150 people that you call kind of your network.

相比街上的陌生人，你更信任自己社交圈里的人。

And your network, you trust more than the average stranger down the street.

如果他们向你推荐什么，就会产生某种光环效应。

Like, if they tell you something, you know, they recommend something, there there is a sort of halo effect.

对吧？

Right?

你逐渐信任他们。

You learn to trust them.

这样的网红有很多。

There there are a lot of these influencers.

他们之所以如此分享个人生活，就是想进入你的社交圈。

The reason why they share so much about their lives is because they want to be in your network.

他们想让你感觉特别亲近。

They want you to feel super close.

当你感到关系非常亲密时，你会信任他们真正地分享那些会有用的东西。

And once you feel super close, you trust them to actually, you know, share things are gonna be useful.

所以当他们推荐一个工具时，会有种光环效应，感觉不像是来自陌生人。

And so when they recommend a tool, there is a sort of halo effect where it doesn't feel like it's coming from a stranger.

感觉像是来自朋友的推荐。

It feels like it's coming from a friend.

这就是为什么每次我们在那里花钱时，你都能看到这种放大效应。

And that's where every time we've spent money there, you actually see this amplification.

就像是，好吧。

It's like, okay.

这有点意思。

That's kind of interesting.

你可能不会预料到这一点，但对我们来说，它从一开始就是这种放大器。

You wouldn't necessarily expect that, but for us, it's been this sort of amplifier from from, yeah, the very beginning.

听这些真是太有趣了。

This is so fun to hear about.

我从未听过关于网红营销如何运作以及如何使其生效的如此详细的描述。

I've not heard this level of detail on how influencer marketing works and how to make it work.

这里还有几个问题。

A few more questions here.

你说最终大概和几千人合作过，大致都是网红吗？

So you said there's maybe a few thousand people you ended up working with, roughly, influencers?

在大概一年的时间里。

Over the course of, yeah, like, a year.

这并不是同时发生的。

It wasn't all in the same time.

就像，你知道，刚开始的时候，我们预算非常有限。

It was like, you know, you find basically, in the beginning, you do in the very, very beginning, we had a small budget.

大概每月合作20个创作者。

It was like, you know, 20 creators a month.

然后逐渐增加到50个，再到100个。

And then you start increasing that to, like, 50, then a 100.

虽然目前还没有完全规模化，但我可以预见未来每月会与大量创作者合作。

And then, you know, we're we're still not I don't I we're not definitely not fully scaled at this point, but I could easily see a point where, you know, you're working with many, many creators every single month.

这样就有机会测试各种内容切入点、产品表述方式和价值主张。

And that gives you a chance to actually test a variety of, you know, again, content hooks, ways to talk about the product, value props.

太棒了。

Amazing.

你说关键在于早期要花时间与每位创作者、影响者沟通，确保他们理解并认同你们在做的事。

And you said the key here is you spend time with every one of these creators, influencers early on to help make sure they understand what you're doing and get excited about it.

而不是简单外包出去？

Isn't just like a thing you outsource?

我认为这方面很有价值。

I think there's a lot of value there.

虽然同样难以量化。

It's hard to, again, hard to quantify.

大多数创作者——或者说大多数创始人——可能都觉得忙得抽不出这个时间。

And most creators feel like they're or most founders probably feel like they're too busy to allocate that time.

但我认为这是一项不错的投资，因为归根结底，你希望他们感觉像是团队的延伸。

But I think it was a good investment because going back to you want them to feel like an extension of your team.

如果他们从未见过你，就不会有团队延伸的感觉。

They're not gonna feel like an extension of your team if if one, they've never met you.

其次，你甚至从未真正向他们解释过产品如何运作。

And two, you've never even told them really how the product works.

他们只能被迫去你的网站上摸索一切。

They just they're forced to kinda go to your website to figure it all out.

这种情况下，他们从外部感受到的关爱显然不会太多。

Those are gonna be, you know, not a whole lot of love that they're feeling from from from the outside.

所以我听到的重点是质量胜过数量，尤其是在起步阶段。

So what I'm hearing is quality over quantity, especially when you're getting started.

另一个关键点是细分市场策略——与直觉相反，与其找粉丝量大的网红，不如找小众创作者。

And then there's this other piece of niche, which I think is very counterintuitive instead of going to large influencers with a huge audience, it's good at folks that are small.

你觉得这类细分市场的理想受众规模大概是多少？

What's like a audience size roughly that you think is ideal for this sort of what niche just means?