从管理人转向管理AI：当下人人必备的领导力技能 | Julie Zhuo（Facebook副总裁、Sundial CEO、《经理人的诞生》作者）

我们正目睹组织结构的扁平化趋势。每个人又变回独立贡献者了。

We're seeing this kind of flattening of orgs. Everyone's becoming an IC again.

过去的情况是：好吧，我没有能力胜任十种不同工作。但现在有了AI，它让我能亲自完成其中许多工作。我们需要打破这些传统角色的界限，称自己为建造者。我期待我们能进入一个以这个为头衔的世界。

It used to be, okay. I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs. But now with AI, it allows me to do many of those jobs myself. We need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles and call ourselves builders. I'd love for us to get to a world where that's the title.

我刚看到数据，谷歌裁掉了大量中层管理者。

I also just saw a stat Google let go of so many of their middle managers.

管理依然至关重要。你需要北极星般的指引，需要愿景，并设法利用现有资源达成目标。过去资源是人，现在基本是模型。不同模型各有所长。

Management is still really critical. You have a north star. You have a vision, and you're just trying to figure out how to use resources that you have to get that thing done. It used to be people, but now it's basically models. And different models have different strengths.

你必须组建复仇者联盟般的团队，才能为不同目标选用合适工具。

You had to have to assemble the Avengers so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes.

你认为当今管理者角色最大的变化是什么？

What do you feel is the biggest change in the role in life of a manager these days?

管理变革本就是管理者的职责。只是现在变革速度在加快。如今管理的精髓在于：在灵活中保持坚韧。我常想到柳树的比喻——它能经受暴风雨和灾难，同时极具柔韧性。

It's always been manager's job to manage change. I just think the rate of change is accelerating. Today, management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible. So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree. It can survive a lot of storms, disasters, etcetera, but it's also very flexible.

你从设计主管到现在痴迷于数据和分析的职业轨迹真是引人入胜。

You have such an interesting trajectory from being head of design to now being obsessed with data and analytics.

你需要用数据诊断问题，用设计解决问题。数据不会直接告诉你该打造什么产品。实际上我认为目前许多快速发展的公司并未善用数据。传统模式下，事物发展速度本就没这么快。这些公司完全依赖良好的直觉和氛围在运作，但最终总会遇到增长停滞期。

You wanna diagnose with data and treat with design. Data is not a tool that's gonna tell you what you should build. I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. Traditionally, things just didn't grow that fast. These companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes, but what always happens is eventually things stop growing.

今天我的嘉宾是Julie Xu。Julie是三年前我首次录制播客时的第一位嘉宾，所以这次对话意义非凡。正如我在其他场合多次提到的，Julie的通讯刊物《The Looking Glass》是我创办通讯的灵感来源，也基本奠定了我现在的一切事业。若你不熟悉Julie，她曾长期担任拥有30亿用户的Facebook应用设计负责人。

Today, my guest is Julie Xu. Julie was my first ever guest on this podcast, which I recorded over three years ago. So this is a very special conversation. As I've shared many times before in other places, Julie's newsletter, The Looking Glass, was the inspiration for my newsletter and basically led to everything that I do now. If you're not familiar with Julie, she was the longtime head of design for the Facebook app used by over 3,000,000,000 people.

她同时也是畅销且极具影响力的《The Making of a Manager》一书作者。最近，她创立了自己的公司Sundial——这是一家被OpenAI、Gamma和Character AI等公司采用的人工智能分析平台。Julie是我见过最具思想深度和洞察力的产品领导者之一，她对产品构建有着独到见解。从Meta这样的巨头企业设计主管，到如今专注利用数据辅助决策的初创公司创始人，这种跨维度的经历实属罕见。我们的对话涉及：优秀管理经验如何直接转化为AI工具的高效使用、未来几年哪些具体技能会增值、她对新任管理者的永恒忠告、为何她的初创公司不招聘产品经理，以及决策时平衡数据与直觉的简易法则。

She's also the author of the best selling and very important book, The Making of a Manager. And most recently, she started her own company, Sundial, which is an AI powered analyst used by companies like OpenAI, Gamma, and Character AI. Julie is one of the most thoughtful and insightful product leaders that I've ever come across, And she's also got one of the most interesting perspectives on product building. Having worked at a mega large corp like Meta as head of design and now as a founder at a tiny startup that's all about using data to help you make decisions, it's really rare for someone to have this spectrum of experiences. In our conversation, we talk about how learning to be a great manager directly translates to learning how to use AI tools extremely well, which specific skills will become more valuable in the next couple of years, her most valuable and timeless advice for new managers, why she's not hiring product managers at her startup, her simple heuristic for knowing when to use data and when to use intuition in making decisions.

本期内容对每位听众都有启发。若你喜欢本节目，别忘了在常用播客应用或YouTube订阅关注，这对我们帮助巨大。若成为我通讯的年费订阅用户，你可全年免费获得15款卓越产品，包括Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n eight m、Linear、Superhuman、Descript、WhisperFlow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChappyRD和Mobin。请访问lenny'snewsletter.com点击product pass获取。

There's something in this episode for everyone. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 15 incredible products for free for the entire year, including Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n eight m, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, WhisperFlow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChappyRD, and Mobin. Head on over to lenny'snewsletter.com and click product pass.

现在有请Julie Xu。本期由Mercury赞助播出。我使用Mercury银行服务多年，老实说现已无法想象其他银行体验。从大通银行转来后，天哪，体验差距太大了。电汇汇款、支出追踪、团队资金权限管理——操作简单得不可思议。

With that, I bring you Julie Xu. This episode is brought to you by Mercury. I've been banking with Mercury for years, and honestly, I can't imagine banking any other way at this point. I switched from Chase and holy moly, what a difference. Sending wires, tracking spend, giving people on my team access to move money around so freaking easy.

当传统银行网站和应用大多笨拙难用时，Mercury精心设计出直观简洁的体验。它将所有资金管理功能整合于单一产品，包括信用卡、发票开具、账单支付、团队报销和资金管理。无论你是需要支付承包商并让闲置资金增值的科技初创，还是需要开具发票保持客户往来的代理机构，或是需要掌控现金流和盈余资金的电商品牌，Mercury都能定制化助力业务腾飞。探索20万企业家钟爱的Mercury服务，十分钟在线申请请访问Mercury官网。

Where most traditional banking websites and apps are clunky and hard to use, Mercury is meticulously designed to be an intuitive and simple experience. And Mercury brings all the ways that you use money into a single product, including credit cards, invoicing, bill pay, reimbursements for your teammates, and capital. Whether you're a funded tech startup looking for ways to pay contractors and earn yield on your idle cash, or an agency that needs to invoice customers and keep them current, or an e commerce brand that needs to stay on top of cash flow and excess capital, Mercury can be tailored to help your business perform at its highest level. See what over 200,000 entrepreneurs love about Mercury. Visit Mercury dot com to apply online in ten minutes.

Mercury是一家金融科技公司，而非银行，其银行服务通过与FDIC承保的合作伙伴银行提供。更多详情请查看节目备注。本期节目由DX赞助播出，这是一个由顶尖研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。要在AI时代蓬勃发展，组织需要快速适应。但许多组织领导者难以回答紧迫问题，比如哪些工具在发挥作用？

Mercury is a fintech, not a bank, banking services provided through Mercury's FDIC insured partner banks. For more details, check out the show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working?

它们是如何被使用的？真正创造价值的是什么？DX提供了领导者应对这一转变所需的数据与洞察。借助DX，Dropbox、booking.com、Adyen和Intercom等公司能深入了解AI如何为开发者创造价值，以及AI对工程生产力产生的影响。了解更多信息，请访问DX官网getdx.com/lenny。

How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

网址是getdx.com/lenny。Julie，非常感谢你再次做客我们的播客节目。

That's getdx.com/lenny. Julie, thank you so much for being here, and welcome back to the podcast.

谢谢Lenny。能来这里我太兴奋了，这一周我都在期待这次对话。我超爱你的播客，从我们第一次交谈至今，你引领节目的方向令我赞叹，我迫不及待要展开一场有趣又深入的讨论。

Thank you, Lenny. I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this all week. I love your podcast. I love where you've taken it since our very first conversation, and I'm super excited to have a fun and engaging chat.

你能相信第一期节目吗？这档播客的首期录制已经是三年前的事了。天哪。

Can you believe that first episode? The very first episode of this podcast was over three years ago at this point. Holy shit.

我记得那时候你背景里还没有那个壁炉特效。

I'm not sure you had that fire in the background back then.

说来有趣，不知道有多少人注意到这个我一直保留的彩蛋。在最早的录音室里——我最近重看那期节目时发现——当时有面滑稽的小镜子，不确定首期节目里是否出现了壁炉，因为镜子里反射的内容很无厘头。后来我每换一个工作室，都会保留这个壁炉背景，辗转各地始终如一。

So funny enough, I don't know how many people have noticed this Easter egg that I've stuck with. In that first studio, I was just watching the episode. I had, like, this funny little mirror. I don't know if I had in the first episode with a fire place that was showing up in that mirror because the mirror was showing something stupid. And so I've just kinda kept this fireplace across every studio I've moved across in my in my various places.

我甚至记得我们聊过。视频在当时还算比较新的事物。你们说会录制下来，但主要还是关于音频，而现在我们已经进入了视频时代。

I even remember we chatted. Video was, like, kind of a newer thing. You're like, we'll record it, but, like, it's really about the audio, and now we've moved into the video era.

就在你说这些的时候，我发现我的壁炉坏了，所以我不得不把它打开。所以我们刚刚剪掉了一小段。是的。那个壁炉是我给自己准备的小彩蛋，我觉得从来没有人注意到这一点。

So as you were saying that, I realized my fire was broken, so I just had to turn it on. So we just cut a little piece. Yeah. That fire was my little fun Easter egg for myself, and I I don't think anyone's ever realized this.

非常温馨。我很喜欢。

It's very cozy. I love it.

就是这个想法。我刚刚在看统计数据。自从第一期节目以来，这个播客的下载量已经超过了2000万次，接近3000万次了。

That's idea. I was actually just looking at the stats. So since that first episode, this podcast has done over 20,000,000 downloads. It's approaching 30,000,000 downloads.

这真的令人难以置信。我认为这证明了你的好奇心以及你有多么关心打造伟大产品并与世界分享这门艺术。我知道我听你的播客，读你的通讯。我的团队也是。我们经常分享你邀请的所有出色演讲者的内容，所以感谢你做这些。

It's really incredible. I think it is a testament to just your curiosity and how much you really care about the craft of building great products and sharing that with the world. And I know I listen to your podcast and read your newsletter. My team does. We're constantly sharing things from all of the amazing speakers that you've had, so thank you for doing this.

这是我的荣幸。我真的很感激。三年后我们再次聊天的原因是你正在重新发行你那本了不起的书《The Making of a Manager》。我这里就有一本。你已经卖出了无数本。

My pleasure. I really appreciate that. So the reason we are chatting again three years later is you're re releasing your incredible book, The Making of a Manager. I've got it right here. You've sold a bazillion copies.

它出现在我见过的每一个榜单上。你正在发行平装版，并增加了一些章节。首先，回顾这本书的成功，你有什么感想？

It's been on every list I've seen. You're releasing the paperback version. You're adding some chapters. I guess first of just how do you feel on reflecting back on the the success of this book?

说实话，它完全超出了我的预期，所以我对此感到非常高兴。我写这本书的主要动机，很大程度上是因为我觉得如果必须写这本书，我很可能会成为一个更好的管理者。这实际上是其中很大一部分原因，因为思考和写作一些东西，我长期写博客，我知道当我真正坐下来尝试写下我所有的感受并给自己写信时，这真的对我有帮助。所以这确实是一个巨大的动力。我希望它能出版并卖出一些书。

It honestly went beyond my expectations, so I'm super happy with it. My big motivation to write it was, I think, largely because I felt if I had to write this thing, I was likely going to become a better manager. And that was actually a huge part of it because thinking about and writing something, I've been blogging for a long time, and I know that part of my process is when I really sit down to try and put down everything I feel and write letters to myself, it really helps me. And so that was honestly a huge motivation. I hoped that it would go out there and it would sell some books.

我在想，对于那些在我这样的公司（如Facebook、硅谷高规模企业）成长起来的人来说，这本书可能会引起共鸣。我没想到它的影响力会远超这个范围，这真的太棒了。很多人会告诉我，他们以为自己是唯一有这种感觉的人，但这本书让他们意识到，嘿，这些是非常正常的感受。这正是我多年来跌跌撞撞、感觉自己像个冒牌货时的感受。

I was thinking about that maybe for people who grew up in companies like mine, like Facebook, high scale Silicon Valley, it might resonate. I couldn't have expected that it would have much wider reach than that, and and that's been really awesome. And just how many people will tell me things like, thought I was the only one who felt this way, but this book made me realize that, hey. These are very normal feelings. And that's certainly how I felt just stumbling through and feeling like an impostor for so many years.

所以听到读者这样的反馈真的让我非常满足。

And so I'm it really is very gratifying to hear that from readers.

我觉得它就像是现代版的《高产出管理》。感觉这是这个播客中被提及最多的书，而这本书就像是它的现代版本。我觉得那本老书在很多方面已经过时了，所以我明白为什么人们会被这本书吸引。这是一个很好的过渡，我想花时间讨论的第一个领域是，你作为管理者学到的许多技能似乎可以很好地应用于AI，并非常有效地使用AI工具。我想讨论几个趋势，听听你对这个主题的看法。

I feel like it's the modern day high output management. It feels like that's the book that's been mentioned most on this podcast, and it feels like this is just like a modern version. I feel like that date book is actually out of date in a lot of ways, so I can see why people are really drawn to it. And this is a great segue to the first area I want to spend some time on, which is it feels like a lot of the skills you learn as a manager translate to being really good with AI, and using AI tools really well. And I want to talk through a few trends that I want to get your take on that relate to this general theme.

首先是感觉在不久的将来，每个人都会成为管理者，因为智能体将如此深入地融入我们的工作流程。我们正在进入一个智能体社会，感觉管理者的技能会让你在与智能体合作时表现得非常出色。对此你有什么看法，你认为这会如何发展？

The first is it feels like just everyone is going to become a manager in the near future because of agents being so integrated into our workflows. There's this agentic society that we're coming to, and it feels like the same skills of being a manager make you really good working with agents. Just thoughts on on that and where you think that's gonna go.

我百分之百相信并同意这一点，因为在我看来，管理就是关于实现一个目标。你想要完成某件事。这就是关键。你有一个北极星，一个愿景，你只是在想办法利用手头的资源来完成那件事。

I a 100% believe that and agree with that, which is that management is just about, in my mind, having an outcome. So you wanna get something done. That's the thing. You have a north star. You have a vision, and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done.

通常，在传统环境中谈论管理时，我们会谈到资源是人，以及如何获得合适的人才，确保你能组建一支“复仇者联盟”——即拥有所需技能的合适组合。第二个杠杆是，目的是什么？每个人是否知道他们应该用自己的才能做什么？比如，我们有一个目标吗？

And typically, when we talk about management in traditional settings, we talk about the resources being people and getting the right talent and making sure that they're you've got to assemble the Avengers. So you've got the right mix of skills that you need. The second lever is around, okay, what's the purpose? Does everyone know what they're supposed to do with their talents? Like, do we have a goal?

我们是否有目标？第三点是流程，即这些不同的人和工具应如何协作？这些仍是与代理系统合作的基本原则。比如，你仍需要一个目标，必须非常清楚最终成果是什么。

Do we have a purpose? And then the third thing is process, which is how should all of these different people and tools come together? And these are still the fundamentals of working with agentic systems. Like, you still need a goal. You need to be very clear about what the outcome is.

你必须理解其优势所在——过去是人，现在基本是模型。不同模型有不同优势，就像它们有不同个性。你需要逐渐熟悉它们，培养直觉，才能为不同目的选用合适工具。我们谈论代理时，也会讨论它们能使用哪些工具？

And you have to understand the strengths of it used to be people, but now it's basically models. And different models have different strengths. So it's like they have different personalities. And so you kind of have to get to know it, like develop an intuition for it so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes. And, I mean, we talk about agents, but we also talk about, like, what are the tools that agents have access to?

因此你仍需就此做出决策。当然还有流程，即具体执行方式。随着模型越来越先进，代理可能变得更智能，能处理更高层次的执行方案。但我们仍需提供正确上下文和高阶指令以确保获得预期结果。这些原则始终不变，我完全同意你的观点：越来越多人需要强化这些技能才能高效使用这些工具。

So you still have to make decisions around that. And then there's, of course, process, which is how you do it. Now now I think with better and better models, perhaps the agents get smarter so they can deal with higher and higher levels of figuring out how to do something. But I think it's still very important for us to be able to provide the right context, provide the right high level instructions so that we get what we want. So, really, it's the same principles, and I absolutely agree with you that more and more of us are gonna have to double down on these skills to be able to use these tools very effectively.

顺着这个思路，我手边正好有你的书。你列出了管理者的职责：组建高效团队、支持成员实现职业目标、创建顺畅高效的工作流程——这基本就是你刚才说的内容。有趣的是，中间那条在代理身上完全不用操心，你不需要考虑它们的职业发展进程

So along those lines, I have your book right here. You have this list of a manager's job is to build a team that works well together, support members in reaching their career goals, and create processes to get work done smoothly and efficiently, which is basically exactly what you just said. Interestingly, that middle bullet is the part you don't have to worry about anymore with agents. You don't have to worry about their career development progress in

确实如此。不过有人开玩笑说，如果我们不善待代理，等通用人工智能出现时会怎样？或许保持友善仍对我们有利。

the business. That's true. Though some people do joke that if we don't treat our agents nice, what's gonna happen when AGI comes? And, you know, maybe it's still still might benefit us to be kind.

我就是那种会对Waymo自动驾驶车说谢谢的人，用语音模式时也会对ChatGPT道谢。那么在这些方面，虽然有很多方向可探讨，但就管理者重要技能而言，你认为哪些对使用AI系统和代理最有价值？我想到比如清晰沟通——当你思考作为管理者需要强化的技能时，哪些也能让你擅长AI工具和代理协作？

I'm one those people that says thank you to the Waymo when I leave and just like thanks chattypty when I'm in voice mode. Like, thank you. That was really helpful. So along these lines, I know there's a lot of ways to go here, but just in terms of skills that are important to a manager, which do you think are most valuable to develop in working with agents in AI systems? I think about things like clarity communication, Just like what comes to mind when you think about like, here's the things you want to double down on as you're learning to be manager, that will also help you be really good at AI tooling and working with agents.

首要的是定义目标和成果，极其清晰地描绘成功图景。显然，如果让公司执行这类任务，我们知道这对人类很有挑战性。大公司难以达成共识的原因，往往就在于不同人对成功的定义不同。即使我用人类语言描述——比如'Lenny，我想开发这个惊艳的产品'，或'希望这期播客让很多人收听并有所收获'——这些都很笼统。

Like, the first is defining the goal and defining the outcome and being really, really crystal clear on what does success look like. I mean, there's obviously lots and lots of like, if you ask a company to do this, we'll know that this is challenging for humans. Right? I think a lot of times when you talk about, you know, why is alignment so difficult at a big company, it often comes down to this question, which is different people may have different pictures of what success looks like. And even if I describe in human words, oh, you know, Lenny, I wanna build this product, and it's gonna be amazing, or, you know, this podcast episode, which you asked me, want lots of people to hear it and take away things, That's very general.

比如，我们如何进一步细化标准，才能毫无疑义地判断目标是否达成？这实际上是个极其棘手的问题。对我们而言，这是个全新的挑战，因为我们习惯宏观思考。因此，如何将其简化为智能体能够真正理解的成功与失败标准，正是关键所在。我认为这也解释了为何我们需要编写评估标准——它们之所以重要，正是帮助我们明确客观的衡量准则。

Like, how do we get even more specific so that we know without question whether we've hit it or not? This is actually a really, really difficult problem. It's a different difficult question for us because, again, we tend to think very high level. So figuring out how to boil it down so that an agent can really understand what success and failure looks like is a lot of the game. And I think this also relates to things like, well, that's why we have to write evals, that's why they're so important because they're helping us understand what is the objective criteria.

如今我从事数据工作，公司致力于实现数据分析自动化。核心问题始终在于：数据和指标的意义，正是试图建立更客观的衡量标准，尽可能清晰地定义成功。我认为这更像是一门艺术而非科学，但这是首要之事。如果对成功标准模糊不清，指令很可能无法产出卓越成果。这既适用于团队管理，也完全适用于AI管理。

And these days, I work in data, and my company is all about trying to automate data analysis. And the forever question goes, the whole point of data and the whole point of metrics and KPIs is we're trying to put a little bit more of an objective measure or get as crystal clear as possible about what success looks like. And I think it's really an art more than it is like a science, but that's like the first thing. I think if you're really unclear about what success looks like, the prompt, probably not gonna get the most amazing work. I think it's true for managing teams, and it's very much true for managing AIs.

好的。让我换个角度和你探讨另一个趋势：组织架构扁平化，管理者被裁撤，所有人重新成为独立贡献者。我刚在播客中采访了Airtable的CEO，他的核心观点是CEO必须重新成为实干者——他现在写的代码比以往任何时候都多。

Okay. So let me actually flip this on you and talk about another trend that we're seeing, which is this kind of flattening of orgs, managers being let go. Everyone's becoming an IC again. I just had the CEO of air table on the podcast and his his whole shtick was that CEOs have to become ICs again. Have he's coding more than he's ever coded again.

他认为，只有深入细节才能洞悉产品可能性。我最近还看到数据：谷歌裁撤了大量中层管理者和小团队领导，这种扁平化趋势明显。所以未来是否还需要管理者？这是个值得思考的问题。也想听听你对这个趋势发展的看法。

And his feeling is you have to know what's possible by being in the weeds in order to figure out what your product should be. I also just saw a stat that Google, let go of so many of their middle managers of smaller teams, it's just like this flattening trend. So do we even need managers, I guess, is one question in the future. And then just thoughts on how this will play out.

确实。我认为AI在工作场所展现的真正魔力在于：它极大赋能了个体。过去的情况是，个人无法掌握十种不同技能，因此需要组建团队——需要优秀的设计师、程序员、数据分析师来互补。

Yeah. So I think the real promise and magic of AI that we're seeing in the workplace is that it leads us to each individual is far more empowered. So it used to be, okay, I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs. So I need to supplement by hiring people to do these jobs. I need someone who's really good at design.

但有了AI助手后，我突然发现：AI能让我亲自完成许多工作。当然，我做不到顶尖专家水平（比如前1%或10%），但即便现在，它能让我迅速达到行业60%-70%的水平。这种能力打开了无数可能性。

I need someone who's really good at coding. I need someone who's really good data analysis, and then I'll assemble that team. But now with AI and my companion, it's like, wait a second. AI makes allows me to do many of those jobs myself. Now I'm not gonna do them at the, it's called the PhD or the highest 1%, 10% level.

最让我兴奋的是——这也是我常对团队强调的——我们需要打破传统角色界限。过去团队需要工程师、产品经理、设计师、研究员、数据科学家等固定配置，而现在，团队可能只需要两个人就够了。

But if I were as, you know, at the zero or tenth percentile, it can certainly get me even today very quickly up to, like, the sixtieth, seventieth in terms of what the state of the art is. And I think that that unlocks so many doors. And so the main thing that I've I felt so excited about, and this is something I tell my team all the time, is we need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles. So in the past, again, we would have a traditional team, engineers, product manager, designer, researcher, data scientist. And I think now the teams can look more like, well, it's just two people.

他们可以是这些传统学科中的任何一种。但关键在于，他们现在可以利用人工智能来帮助自己完成许多过去只有其他人才能做的事情。因此，从某种意义上说，我们可以摒弃所有这些不同的角色区分，统称自己为构建者。我认为这是对我们所有人身份最通用的思考方式。我们都可以成为构建者。

And they could be any of these traditional disciplines. But the key thing is they can now use AI to help themselves do a lot of the things that the other folks used to be able to do. So in some ways, we can drop all of these different role distinctions and call ourselves builders. I think that's sort of the most general purpose way of thinking about what we can all be. We can all be builders.

我们都可以成为构建者。我我我非常希望我们能进入这样一个世界，这就是我们的头衔。

We can all be builders. And I I I'd love for us to get to a world where that's just that's like the title.

有趣的是，这正是我最近越来越频繁使用的术语。我过去将这个播客定位为围绕产品经理的通讯，后来我开始用更宽泛的'产品'一词，现在实际上在用'构建者'这个术语。我非常喜欢这个词，它完全符合你所说的，这也是这些对话中经常出现的主题，界限正变得越来越模糊。我很好奇，在你们公司，这具体是怎样的？你们采取了哪些不同的做法？与几年前相比，你们在公司内部看到了哪些变化？

That's funny, that's the term I've been actually using more and more. I used to orient this podcast as a newsletter around product managers, and then I started using just product to be a little more broad, and now I'm actually using that term builder. And I love that term, it's exactly what you're saying, and this is very much a theme that comes up often in these conversations, more and more, just the lines are blurring. I'm curious at your company, how does that look, like what are you doing differently, What are you seeing in on the ground within your company that maybe would be different from a few years ago?

所以我们削减了更多岗位。例如，我们原以为需要大量产品经理。结果发现，实际上如果没有产品经理——我知道这可能有点违背我们最初的核心理念——但我发现，当你有设计师或产品经理时，比如我是工程师，遇到产品定义问题时，我的第一反应会是'这些人负责这个'。

So we have eliminated more roles. For example, we thought we would need a bunch of product managers. It's turned out that actually, if you don't have a product manager I know this might be going against a little bit of the ethos of of where Here we go. Here we started. But I find that sometimes when you have, like, a designer or a product manager, and let's say I'm an engineer, Then when I have a problem, like, oh, I need to figure out the product definition, my default will be, well, I've got these people, and that's kind of their job description.

于是我就把问题推给他们。这样做虽然出于礼貌和尊重各自职责，但我觉得工程师错失了机会——作为工程师，我应该停下来思考：等等，我也需要重点关注该构建什么，或者用户体验应该是怎样的。

So I'm just gonna delegate that to them. And I think that in in doing so, you know, again, where we wanna be polite, we wanna respect everyone's lanes. I think that's a missed opportunity for that engine you know, if I'm the engineer to look be like, wait a second. I should probably focus a lot too. Like, I need to understand and have an opinion about what to build or what the user experience is.

因此我们发现，如果精简团队规模，甚至在AI时代之前就减少这些岗位，就能让每个人都意识到：'团队没有产品经理？那沟通就是我的责任。确定如何为用户创造最大价值现在明确属于我的职责范围。'

And so we found that if we actually make teams smaller and we kind of even, like, in the past, you know, pre AI, like, just have fewer of these, it allowed everyone to be like, oh, wait. We don't have a product manager on the team. Okay. So communication's up to me. Figuring out how we get greatest value to users is something that is now strictly in my charter.

这就是为什么我如此推崇精简团队和消除界限。当然，我并非要求每个人都全能，我们仍应尊重某些人可能更擅长特定技能的事实。但这更多取决于具体情境，而非固定角色。

And so that's why I'm such a big fan of, like, we can make teams smaller, and we can eliminate these lines. Sure. Again, there's still I'm not trying to say, like, everyone has to do everything. We still can respect the fact that you might be much better at this particular skill than me. But it's less about the role and it's more about the specific context that we're in.

我发现，当你拥有团队并赋予他们在特定情境下采取更多行动的权力，而不是制定更高层次的规则、政策或规定事情‘应该’如何运作时，工作效果会更好。你会得到更高效的工作成果，员工也会更快乐，因为他们感觉真正有能力去创造自己想要的东西。

And I find that whenever you have teams and you empower them to be able to take more action on their specific context rather than having these higher level of rules or policies or like this is how it's supposed to be, then you get better work. You get faster work, and you get happier employees because, you know, people feel like they actually can, you know, have the power to create the thing that they want.

这很有趣，仅仅没有项目经理这个限制，就能让工程师意识到他们不能等待别人来做，必须自己解决问题。这里明显的窍门是他们必须擅长这个。从工程角度出发，真正擅长阐述‘这是我们要解决的问题’、‘为什么解决它很重要’以及‘如何优先处理我们考虑的所有事项’，这是一项截然不同的工作。

That's really interesting that just that constraint of not having a PM makes the engineer realize they're not going to wait for someone else to do it, they have to figure it out. The obvious kind of trick there is they have to be good at this. It's a very different job from engineering to be really good at articulating here's the problem we're gonna solve. Here's why it's important to work solving. Here's how we're going to prioritize everything we're thinking about.

我们如何达成一致？在招聘这些工程师时，知道你可能不会雇佣项目经理，你会采取不同的做法吗？感觉要招聘一个真正擅长所有这些事情的人确实很难。

Here's how do we get alignment. Is there something you do differently when you're hiring these engineers knowing you're going to probably not hire PM and, and just that feels really hard to hire for someone that's really good at all these things.

确实如此。我并不是说每个人都需要擅长所有事情，我认为这不现实。举个例子，如果我们组建一个团队，有几名工程师，但都不太擅长思考产品需求或用户角度，那么我们可能需要补充一个具备这些技能的人，对吧？

It is true. And I'm not trying to say again that everyone needs to be good at everything. I don't think that's very realistic. I do think, for example, if we were gonna create a team and we're gonna have a couple engineers and none of them are very good at thinking through product requirements or what the user angle is. We probably do need to supplement the team with somebody with that skill set, right?

这个人可能是设计师，也可能是另一位擅长这方面的工程师，或者是传统的产品经理，甚至有时是擅长此道的数据分析师。所以这项技能仍然重要，团队仍需具备。否则，可能无法产生最佳结果。但我倾向于思考：这个项目需要哪些技能？我们能否找到几个人来满足？而不是自动套用‘需要一个项目经理、一个设计师、三名工程师’这样的模板。

And that might be a designer or that might be another engineer who's really good at that, or that might be a traditional product manager or even sometimes a data analyst who's really good at it. So that skill is still important, and the team still needs to have that skill. Otherwise, it's probably not going to produce the best outcome. But I like to think of it as like, what are the skills that are needed for this, and can we now find a couple people? But it doesn't mean we just automatically go to that script of need a PM, need a designer, need three engineers, need need that.

明白吗？另一个例子是，即使是前端和后端工程。过去常说‘有些人是前端工程师’，所以如果一个项目涉及前端和后端，捷径就是‘我需要一个前端和一个后端’。但如果你说：听着，你是工程师，是构建者。这个项目有一点前端，但你知道吗？你或许能搞定——比如用AI帮你解决。

You know? Another example for us is, like, even thinking about front end, back end engineering. It used to be like, oh, some people are front end engineers. So if you have a project and it's got some front end, some back end, the shortcut is like, I need one of these and one of these, and that's how it's gonna go. But if you say, look.

你是工程师，是构建者。虽然这涉及一点前端，但你知道吗？你或许能搞定——比如利用AI来帮助你解决。

You're an engineer. You're a builder. You can this has a little bit of front end, but you know what? You can probably figure that out. Like, use AI to help you figure it out.

要知道，显然要找个专家来审查代码或提供一些高层次的指导，但只管去做。自从我们也开始实施这种做法后，确实看到了效果。不过一开始需要投入一些，因为人们不太适应，他们需要学习。所以最初阶段，事情会花更长时间。

You know, get, obviously, someone who's a specialist to review the code or to give you some high level guidance on things, but just do it. And ever since we started to implement that as well, we see yeah. Again, a little bit of you you have to kind of invest a little bit in the beginning so people are not as comfortable. They have to learn. So initially, things take longer.

这确实需要额外的时间，对吧？如果换成专门安排一个前端专家来处理这个前端项目，可能进度会快些。但从长远看，这种投入非常值得，因为现在你有了更多全能型人才，他们能独立承担更多任务。当然在特定情况下，比如遇到特别偏前端的难题时，我们还是会引入该领域的专家。

It takes a little bit of extra time, right, versus if you did slot in a front end specialist and this is a front end project, it probably would have gone a little bit shorter. But in the long run, that investment really pays off because now you have a lot more people who are, again, a little more well rounded and can take on many more pieces just on their own. And then in specific scenarios, oh, this is super front end heavy. Sure. Let's still bring in somebody who is more specialized in that particular skill.

我很欣赏你既有在Meta这样超大型公司工作的经验，现在又创建了自己的小型初创公司，顺应了保持精简、让员工多能化的趋势。这经历太棒了。我有几个问题：在所有AI工具中，哪个职能领域受益最明显？是工程部门还是其他？另外，有哪些对你特别有帮助的AI工具值得推荐给大家？

I love that you've had the experience of working at a mega large company at Meta, and now you're building your own startup that's small and in the middle of this trend of just staying very small and staying really lean and just everyone doing more things. It's so cool that you're experiencing that. So a couple questions there just which functions are you seeing most accelerated with all these AI tools is it engineering is it something else. And then are there there tools that have been most helpful to you? Just AI tools for folks who'd be like, oh, I should check it out.

比如我猜是Cursor，但好奇是否还有其他工具？

Like, I'm guessing cursor, but curious if there's anything else.

确实工程部门最明显。我们公司大部分是工程师，所以这是我们重点关注的领域。我也看到越来越多人开始做原型设计，不只是我们那两个设计师，工程师们也参与其中。

Yeah. Certainly engineering. Engineering is one that we I mean, most of our company is engineers, so that's the one that we focused on a bunch. I certainly do see more people also prototyping things. And so it's not just we have not we have, like, two designers, but we also see engineers.

我们有个叫'产品科学'的团队，这是个有趣的组合——你可以理解为具备数据分析背景的前线人员，既扮演客户成功角色，又承担部分产品职能。现在看到他们开始构建更多原型甚至参与工程开发，这种跨界融合非常美好。我们都在互相鼓励尝试新领域。最近我们还推动工程师们做数据分析，虽然他们最初会说'我不懂分析'...

We have one we have a team that's called product science, which is this interesting blend of you can think about it as like a forward deployed person who is has a lot of data analysis background and is kind of playing a customer success role and also kind of playing like a product role. And you see them starting to take on building more prototypes or getting into some of the engineering. And so it's really lovely to see that blend of everyone can do a little bit of everything else, and we're all encouraging each other. The other thing that recently we've we've also been trying to do a lot more is just, you know, obviously, we say, hey, engineer. Now you can do analysis.

这时ChatGPT就派上用场了。传统做法是要向人类学习，占用别人大量时间请教。而现在，我认为ChatGPT这类AI工具反而是更好的老师。

And their first thing is like, oh, I don't really know analysis. This is where ChatGPT comes in. And it's like, well, you know, traditionally, we would say, well, I have to learn that from a human. I have to ask this person, and now I'm gonna take a bunch of their time because I want them to explain everything to me. And in fact, I think these days ChatGPT or these other AI tools are better teachers.

我发现我们可能不太会仅仅为了加速学习或应对某些情况而频繁使用它们。有时我会在网上找到一套课程大纲，比如一个为期十二周的课程，然后我会把它输入ChatGPT，让它帮我根据我的学习偏好定制一个学习计划。比如，我是一个非常需要实例教学的人。

I find that we tend to maybe not use them quite as much just for the purposes of accelerating our education or even going through something. Sometimes what I'll do is I'll find a curriculum online. If you take a course, it'll be like this twelve week curriculum, and I will just feed it into ChatGPT. And I'll say, help me customize a program for me using the ways that I like to learn. Like, I am a person who really needs examples.

我需要大量'五岁儿童也能懂'的解释和类比。而我知道团队里其他人会觉得这些例子毫无意义——我们的学习类型本就不同。因此，这种能为每个人个性化学习的工具确实能帮助我们更快掌握技能，效率远超从前。是的，这些工具很棒。

I need a lot of, explain like I'm five, give me an analogy. And I know some other people on my team, they're like, these examples don't make any sense. We're different types of learners. And so the idea of a tool that personalizes learning for each of us really helps us, I think, accelerate and just learn these skills much faster than before. So, yes, the tools are great.

我们可以使用Cursor这样的工具，它能自动补全代码、生成内容。但学习加速可能是我们武器库中最未被充分利用的功能之一。

We can use cursor. It helps us. It auto completes. It writes a bunch of things. But the acceleration of learning, I think, is another maybe underutilized tool in all of our arsenals.

因为每次与人交谈时，我们总会忘记——我们不会意识到：'等等，其实我们可以这样做'。只需坐下来花三四十分钟，就能学到比过去快得多的东西。

Just because I know whenever I talk to people, we just we forget. Like, we don't we don't think that, like, oh, wait. Yes. We could be doing that and just sitting down and probably in thirty minutes or an hour learned so much faster than what we used to be able to do before.

这个观点很有意思。有些工具能即时帮你提速，但同时也需要学习基础技能。你们团队在哪个领域实践过这种学习方式？

That's such an interesting point. There's, like, these tools that are in the just in time helping you move faster, and then there's but you also need to learn how to do something. Yes. It's like some foundational lessons. What's an area that your team did that?

比如他们具体学习了什么内容？

Like, what did they work on learning?

举个今早的例子：我和一位工程师交谈，他编写过许多算法。我们公司致力于自动化数据分析，因此必须掌握最佳实践。比如面对'哪些功能是用户真正愿意付费的'这类问题时——

So I'll give you an example. I was just talking to an engineer this morning, and he's written a bunch of these algorithms. So one of the things our company does is we're trying to automate data analysis. So one of the things we have to do is obviously understand the best practices. Like if there's a type of question, hey, what features are really the ones that people pay for?

我们需要大致弄清楚应该进行哪种分析。工程师当时对我说，朱莉，我觉得自己确实理解了方法。比如，我了解算法。我知道如果做根本原因分析，具体怎么做。但我真正不明白的是为什么或在什么情况下这最有用。

We need to kinda figure out what is the right analysis to do. And so the engineer was saying to me, you know, Julie, I feel like I really understand the how. Like, I know the algorithms. I know if we do root cause analysis, like, how we do that. But what I don't really understand is why or when this would be most useful.

比如，在公司什么情境下会出现这类问题？因为他是工程师，没有担任过提出这类问题的产品经理或高管角色。这恰好是传统上你可能需要请教他人的问题，但ChatGPT更具普适性。互联网上有大量相关资源可供参考。

Like, in what context in a company would this company come up? Because he's an engineer. He hasn't done that job of being, like, a PM or an executive that asks these types of questions. And that was like the perfect thing where like, yeah, traditionally, you might have asked someone, but this is more general purpose. Like, there's so much resources in the world on the internet about it.

这类问题最适合询问ChatGPT，它很可能给出更优质的回答并让你深入探索。我们还发现另一个妙用——把它当作学习检测工具。它会解释很多概念，而我常做的是：读完资料后尝试复述自己的理解。

This is like the perfect type of question where if you just talk to ChatGPT, it's probably gonna give you a much better answer and allow you to go deeper. And a secondary thing we've been learning, too, is this idea of almost like using ChatGPT, it's like you test your learning. So it explains a bunch of things. And so what I often like to do is like, okay, I read this. So this means I'm trying to explain back what I heard.

对吧？比如我会问：这样理解对吗？是否类似于这个比喻？ChatGPT会给出评判：正确，或指出理解偏差。

Right? So does this mean is the right way to think about it that this is kind of like this analogy? And ChatGeBT will critique me. Yes, that is right. Or no, you didn't quite get that right.

有趣的是它总是委婉指正。有次它先说'接近了'，最后才用独特风格表示'完全错了'。这种互动方式非常有效。

Like, in fact and it always tries to say it nicely. This is a funny part. I'll be like, that's close. And then eventually it's like, you were completely wrong just in the style. But like, helps so much because it's interactive.

通过用自己的方式复述概念，我们能真正检验是否理解了核心内容。

And so we can really test whether we really understand the concept by trying to retell it back in our own way.

AI突破正以惊人方式帮助我们进步、拓展能力、加速学习。虽然存在弊端，但其赋能效果令人惊叹。我想多花时间研究数据分析领域。你的职业轨迹很有趣——从大公司到自己创业，从设计主管到如今痴迷数据与分析。

It's incredible just how many ways all this AI breakthrough is helping us in advance and do more and learn more and become better. I know there's some downsides, this is incredible. Know so many ways of getting better and faster. I want to spend a little more time on this data analysis stuff. So again, you have such an interesting trajectory from working at a big company to starting your own small company, from being head of design to now being obsessed with data and analytics.

那么让我花点时间谈谈这个问题。那些已经掌握如何利用AI进行数据分析和数据工作的公司，他们有哪些不同的做法？人们在提升数据处理能力方面遗漏或忽视了哪些要点？我想补充一点，感觉我们正在梳理团队前进的所有障碍——比如等待产品经理撰写产品需求文档，或是等待数据科学家提供分析结果。这其实是另一个能让每位团队成员突破瓶颈的绝妙方法。

So let me spend a little time there. What do AI companies that are have kind of figured out how to use AI for data analysis and data work doing differently. What can people what are people missing and sleeping on in terms of getting better at working with data and let me just ask, add this point, I feel like we're almost working through here's all the blockers to a team moving forward. There's like a p waiting for the PM to write the PRD, and then there's like waiting for the data scientists to give you answers analysis. So this is like another really cool unblock that every team member will have.

你第一个问题是AI公司如何运用数据？有趣的是，我的回答是：实际上我认为目前许多快速发展的公司并未善用数据。主要原因在于传统企业增长速度没这么快。如果某公司拥有1亿用户，通常已运营多年，自然有时间建立日志系统、组建增长团队、搭建数据团队，并完成数据采集、埋点和转换等工作。

So your first question was how are a bunch of AI companies using data? So the funny thing my funny answer to this is I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. And the main reason why is because traditionally, things just didn't grow that fast. And so if you got to 100,000,000 users, your company has probably been around for a while. And if your company has been around for a while, you've had time to set up things like logging and you've hired a growth team at that point and you've hired a data team and they've done a bunch of work to log and instrument and then transform the data.

我们讨论过什么是业务可观测性。由于过去增长缓慢，企业通常有数年时间来构建这套体系。但如今我们看到一些疯狂增长的公司，可能只有10人或2人团队，却坐拥数亿美元年收入和数亿用户。但事实上，它们根本不具备支持真正数据分析的基础设施和日志系统。

And we've talked about what is the observability for our business. And you just usually have years to build and develop that because of rate of growth. And so today, we see companies that are growing insane, and there's still about 10 people or two people or however many people, but they've got hundreds of millions in ARR and hundreds of millions of users. And you know what? They don't actually have all of that infrastructure, that logging, and all to be able to truly do data analysis.

可以说这些公司完全依靠良好直觉和氛围在运作。有时候确实不需要数据分析也能成功。但在我看来，数据的价值在于帮助我们反映客观现实。

So I would say that these companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes. And we see that. Right? Like, you don't really need a data analysis to sometimes make something that works. But I think what data helps us do is it just in my mind, it's sort of is like helping us reflect back what is really reality.

当然，如果AR（增强现实）业务在增长，那很棒，继续保持。但总会遇到增长停滞的时刻，增长不可能永远持续。

And so of course, if AR is growing, awesome. Great. Keep doing what you're doing. But what always happens is eventually things stop growing. Growth does not happen forever.

当增长停滞时，所有人都会追问原因。这时如果建立了完善的数据埋点和业务可观测模型，就能更容易定位根源问题，甚至提前预测增长放缓节点，更早捕捉趋势变化。

And usually when growth stops, everyone has this question of like, what's going on? Why did it happen? And then you start to be able to see the power of if instrumented everything very well and you have a very good observability model for your business, it's much easier to start to get into the root cause. It's easier to even predict whether growth will slow down at a certain point. It's easier to catch these trends earlier.

如果缺乏对业务运行和关键杠杆的良好观测能力，届时就会手忙脚乱。通常这时人们才开始大量投资数据建设。我不认为这些热门公司已完全做好准备。但另一个趋势是：每次技术变革都需要我们改变分析思维——当技术或语境变化时，我们需要新的分析方法论来解答新问题。

If you don't have good observability over how your business runs and what the company's key levers are, then you will be scrambling. And at that point, that's usually when people start investing a ton in data. So I wouldn't say that we're a lot of these hot companies, like, you know, are are quite there yet. But what I also think is a trend is that every time there's a new technological shift, we actually have to change the way that we think about like, analysis has to answer the questions that we have. And if technology changes or context changes, we need new methodologies of analysis.

举个例子，当移动端成为主流时，我们开始关注会话次数、每日会话量、移动端使用时长或会话持续时间等指标，这些对我们理解用户是否从新媒介中获取价值至关重要。我认为这与当前情况类似。会话分析则完全不同，比如在谷歌时代——

So for example, when mobile came to the forefront, right, looking at sessions or sessions per day or or time spent on mobile or, you know, kind of length of sessions became something that was important for us to understand. Are people getting value in this new medium? I think that's the same with what we have today. Conversational analytics is totally different. Used to be, let's say, in the Google world.

对吧？如果你点击购物标签，我就知道你对购物感兴趣；点击地图标签则说明对地图有兴趣，那时我们可以通过点击量来衡量。而现在一切都变成了对话。

Right? I knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab. I know you're interested in maps. If you click the maps tab, we can measure clicks. Today, it's just all conversation.

因此我们实际上更难解析用户意图。如果让我负责任何大语言模型项目，最核心的问题可能是：哪些用例在增长？哪些在萎缩？如今这更难判断，因为不再只是标签或页面的点击量，我们可能需要借助大语言模型或机器学习来归类用户意图。

And so it's actually harder for us to tease apart what is the user intent. You know, if I worked on any of these LLM, I would say, like, one of the probably the biggest questions is, hey. What use cases are growing or what use cases are shrinking? And that's much harder to tell today because it's not just clicks on tabs or pages. It's like we have to probably use an LLM to or machine learning model to bucket user intent.

我们或许需要提出这样的问题：对话流程是否顺畅？比如用户只提一个问题而没有来回交流，他们是否获得了价值？这始终回归到我们试图评估体验质量的问题，但现在需要创造全新的分析方法来实现。

We probably have to ask questions like, is the flow going really well in conversations? You know? Like like, if I just ask one question and I don't go back and forth, like, did the user get value? Right? It's always trying to get back to, like, we're trying to figure out if this was a good experience, but now it's it's like we need to actually invent new methodologies to help us analyze that.

是啊。关于对话体验，核心问题永远是：应该设计长对话还是短对话？什么才是正确答案？

Yeah. I think there the question is always, like, with conversation. Do want it to be a long conversation? Do want it to a short conversation? Like, what's the right answer?

哪种更好？我们播客嘉宾Nick Turley提到，他们早期通过观察TikTok评论和病毒传播发现了最常用用例。好的，我想回到你这段非凡的职业转型——从Facebook设计总监到数据创业公司创始人，你激励了无数设计师。

What's better? I had a they had a chatty PT on the podcast, Nick Turley, turns out one of the ways they found the most common use cases early on was watching TikTok comments and things going viral on TikTok after they launched. Yep. Okay, so I want to come back to this really interesting, unusual path that you took from being a head of design at Facebook. You're an inspiration to so many designers.

如今你投身于数据创业，而传统上设计师往往不太热衷实验数据和数据驱动决策。当设计师们抗拒说'我们不想被数据主导，我们更懂美学与直觉'时，你认为他们忽略了什么？这种对实验数据的恐惧和排斥背后存在哪些认知盲点？

Now, you spend your time on on a data startup obsessed with data. I don't know classically designers aren't the biggest fans of experiments and data and making decisions based on data. When you look at designers and your designers kind of push back on like, no, we don't want to be super data driven, we want to, we know better than we have a sense of what's beautiful and great and intuition, all these things. Do you think designers are missing when they feel that and say that, when they're afraid of writing experiments and data and kinda wanna push that out.

我和联合创始人早期经常讨论并分享给许多合作公司的一个核心理念是：用数据诊断，用设计治疗。数据本身不会告诉你该构建什么解决方案，或如何解决用户留存率低的问题——它不具备这种功能。但它能揭示问题所在及潜在机会。最终仍需通过创造性过程来寻找最佳解决路径。

There's one phrase that my co founder and I would always discuss with us amongst ourselves very early on and which we shared with like a lot of the companies that we work with, which is what what you really want is you wanna diagnose with data and treat with design. So data is not a tool that's gonna tell you what you should build or what the solution is or how you're gonna, you know, cure the fact that you don't have really great retention. It's just not. But it can tell you if you have a problem and where that problem or opportunity might be. But you still need to go back and undergo a very creative process to figure out what's the best way to solve that.

因此我想强调的第一个框架是：数据帮你认清现状——用户喜欢什么、参与什么、排斥什么。它提供的是更贴近现实的叙事。毕竟我们都爱编织故事，比如'我们公司很棒'...

So that's the first thing I would say is this framework of like, data helps you figure out what's actually happening, what do people like, what are they engaging with, what not. Right? It just gives you a story that better reflects reality. Because again, we all have stories. We're like, oh, my my company is amazing.

'用户爱死我们了'之类的。这些都是我们愿意相信的故事，但现实可能截然不同。数据的使命就是捕捉真实。顺便说，我认为数据不限于A/B测试等可量化的指标——

People love us. Blah blah. That's a story I want to believe, but reality may be a different picture. And so what data is trying to do is capture reality. And by the way, I don't think of data just as like it's AB test and it's quantitative things we can measure.

对我而言，TikTok上的用户创作内容、爆款视频、Twitter（现在叫X）的舆论风向，乃至客户访谈中的反馈，这些都是数据。只是这类数据更难提炼量化——

To me, data is also, well, what did people put onto TikTok and which things went viral and what are they saying in the Twitterverse or Xverse, I guess, is what it's called now. That's true. And and and what are you know? And if you do a customer interview, like, what that's still all data. It's just that that is a little harder to distill and quantify.

虽然AI现在提供了更好的分析工具。这些本质上都是帮助我们理解现实的数据：正在发生什么现象？如何解读？但创造和梦想仍需要人类完成，没有任何公式能保证成功。实验方法或许能让你更严谨地测试短期效果...

Although now with AI, we have better tools for synthesizing. So that's all data in my mind, and it's just all trying to help us understand what is really happening. What is the phenomenon that's happening in reality and how do we understand it? You still have to go and invent and create and dream, and there's no formula and there's no science that will tell you exactly how you're going to make a hit. You can experiment, which allows you to try more things maybe and more rigorously understand what that does in the short term.

一切都高度情境化——A/B测试无法预测长期影响。这些归根结底还是数据，最终仍需人类整合判断。所以重申这个理念：数据诊断，设计治疗。我想对设计师说的第二点是，我们常陷入'数字虚假精确性'的陷阱——

It's all very contextualized, right, because AB tests don't tell you what will happen in the very long run. And that's still again, it's all still data. You still have to synthesize and figure out what to do. So that's the thing I'll say, diagnose with data and treat with design. I think the second thing I will usually tell designers about is I find that sometimes and maybe it's the let's call it the false precision of numbers that we kind of fall into.

对吧？看到数字上涨就认为成功。但选择关注哪些指标本身就是门艺术，而非精确科学。

Right? Because it's like, okay. We got these numbers, and the numbers go up. It's like, no. The fact that you still have to choose which things you look at is an art, not a science.

而你对数字上升5%的解读——这是好是坏？同样是一种诠释，是一门艺术而非科学。只是有时我觉得我们会给自己这种错觉，我理解。偶尔会有种想要掌控一切的冲动，希望所有事情都严丝合缝。

And your interpretation of if the number went up 5%, is that good? Is that not good? Is also an interpretation and is an is an art, not a science. It's just that sometimes I think we can give ourselves this feeling, and I get it. Sometimes there's this instinct to wanna control things, and we want everything to be buttoned up.

我们总想知道如果执行了ABC方案，一切就会完美。事业将蒸蒸日上，产品会一飞冲天。但设计师们经常理直气壮地反驳说：不，现实是这些东西本就充满模糊性和不确定性，我们永远无法绝对确定。我认为这些观点非常正确。

And we wanna know that if we did ABC, everything will be great. Our career is gonna be awesome. Our product's gonna rocket ship. And I think designers are rightly often pushing back and saying, no, the reality is like this stuff is ambiguous and there's uncertainty and we can never know for sure. And I think all that is quite true.

所以我非常支持的另一点是：你根本无法通过AB测试就做出真正伟大的产品。这是我深信不疑的。但我们也不该因噎废食，这并非非此即彼的选择——不是数据或设计二选一。

So the other thing I would say that I really support is like you just actually can't make a really great product by thinking you can AB test your way into it. So that's I fundamentally believe that. But I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there's actually it's not either or. It's not like data or design.

这些只是供我们使用的工具。我接触过的每位杰出设计师都痴迷于更深入地理解现实。他们想知道用户的真实想法，了解用户的实际行为。如果能读懂每个用户的心思，那正是我们作为设计师梦寐以求的，对吧？

It's like these are just tools for us to use. And I would say every amazing designer that I've ever met is absolutely obsessed with trying to get a better understanding of reality. They wanna know what users really think. They wanna know what they're really doing. If they could read every user's minds, that's like the thing we would all want, right, as a designer.

就像如果能实时知晓每个人使用产品时的所思所感，我的工作会轻松许多，因为这样我就能打造越来越好的产品。数据正是试图帮助我们做到这点。它虽不完美，没有哪个指标能提供我们期望的那种绝对确定性和精确度，但这不妨碍我们用它来优化产品开发。

It's like if I could just know what everyone is thinking and feeling every time they used it, my life would be a lot easier because then I would be able to build better and better things. And so that's what it's trying to help us do. It isn't perfect. No metric is gonna tell you whatever ever we hope that it can in terms of the the true certainty and precision, but it doesn't mean we can't use it to better our our product development.

我正想说你刚才的观点——每位与我共事的优秀设计师都对数据痴迷，他们最倾向于依赖数据，而非那些仅凭直觉就认定'我知道什么是对的，凭什么让数据指导我们'的设计师。正如你所说，数据不会告诉你该怎么做，但会揭示机遇所在。让我们回到管理话题，我想问个宽泛的问题：你认为随着AI兴起，如今管理者角色及日常工作生活最大的变化是什么？

I was gonna say exactly what you just said, which is every great designer that I've worked with was obsessed with data and the most leaning into the data versus designers that are just like, nah, I think I'm gonna have a sense of what's right and why would we let that tell us what to do? And your point, it's not gonna tell you what to do. It'll tell you where opportunities arise. Let me take us back to the management chat, and maybe just let me ask something broad. What what do you feel is the biggest change in the role and day to day work and life of a manager these days with the rise of AI?

我认为应对变化本就是管理者的职责，混乱始终存在。但变化速度正在加快，过去几十年我们已目睹这点。因此我发现人们对事物抱有更多不确定性——比如两年后AI会发展成什么样？谁都说不准。

I think that managing change it's always been manager's job to manage change, and there's always the chaos of what's going on. I just think the rate of change is accelerating, and we've seen that over the last couple of decades. And so I find that there's just a great deal more uncertainty that people have about things. Like, we all you know, where is AI gonna be in two years from now? I don't know.

谁知道谁真正了解呢？对吧？那么，我们五年内会有通用人工智能吗？这可能会彻底改变整个格局。更不用说，我认为很多组织都感受到了相当大的恐惧。

Who know who really knows? Right? And so, you know, are we gonna have AGI in five years? That kinda changes a lot about the landscape. Not to mention, I think there's quite a lot of fear that many organizations are feeling.

你知道吗？就像如果我的职业生涯一直从事设计工作，而现在这些工具在我所做的事情上越来越擅长，天哪，那我的职业和未来会怎样？我需要转向吗？我需要学习不同的东西吗？这就是变革带来的影响。

You know? It's like if my career has always been in design and now these tools are getting better and better at what I'm doing, then holy shit, what happens to my career and my future? And do I need to pivot? Do I need to learn different things? And so it's this change.

这是一种不确定性的感觉。我认为很多时候管理者不仅要应对你之前提到的那些问题，还要学习这些新技能，比如管理AI和管理这些更强大的工具，作为他们完成任务的手段。这与十年前、二十年前、三十年前非常不同。因此，我认为沟通、反馈、同理心等技能变得更加重要，但更重要的是能够与人类合作，让他们明白我们确实处于变革之中。我认为现在每个领导者都必须做到这一点。

It's this feeling of uncertainty. And I think a lot of times managers have to deal with that in addition to what you were saying before, which is they also have to learn these new skills, which is managing AI and managing kind of like these more powerful tools in their arsenal of trying to get things done. So that is very different, I think, than maybe, you know, ten, twenty, thirty years ago. And so I think that the skills that become more important are obviously communication, feedback, compassion, but just being able to work with humans and to have them understand that, like, yes, we are in a state of change. I think every leader has to do this now.

我认识的每一位初创公司创始人、每一位CEO都在思考如何传达这样的信息：事情正在变化，我们需要非常开放地接受变化。如果我们固守旧的方式，我们很可能会被淘汰。我们的产品会被淘汰，甚至我们的工作方式也会被淘汰。所以我们需要改变。

Every startup founder that I know, every CEO is, how do you land this message that things are changing and we need to be very like, we need to be very open to change? If we go and stick to our old ways, we're probably gonna get left behind. Our product's gonna get left behind. Even our way of doing things is going to be left behind. So we need to change.

对吧？我们需要改变我们的产品，也需要改变我们的工作方式，就像我们之前讨论的那样，更小的团队、更灵活等等。但与此同时，我们如何在不吓坏所有人的情况下做到这一点？否则就会变成‘哦，太混乱了，一切都在变’。

Right? We we need to change our product, and we need to change the way that we work as we all talked about in terms of smaller teams, more nimble, blah blah blah. But at the same time, it's like, how how do we do that in a way that doesn't just freak everyone out? It's like, oh, it's chaos. Everything's changing.

所以我经常想到这个比喻，就像柳树一样。柳树是一种非常坚固的树，你知道的，它能经受很多风暴、灾难等等，但它也非常灵活。它的枝条非常非常柔韧，这在某种程度上正是它坚固的原因。所以我认为今天的管理理念就是要在保持坚固的同时保持灵活。

Like so so I think about this metaphor a lot of, like, the willow tree, which is, like the willow tree is a very sturdy tree. You know? It's it's it it it can survive a lot of storms, disasters, etcetera, but it's also very flexible. Like, the branches are very, very flexible, and that's in some ways what allows it to be very sturdy. So I think today, management is really about this idea of, like, be sturdy while being flexible.

这是一件非常难以做到的事情，但我想至少当我尝试时，我会想象自己像柳树一样，朱莉。试着想象柳树，并试图将那种感觉作为我们共同努力的目标。

And that is a very hard thing to pull off, but I think that's, like, at least when I even go into be like, be like the Willow Tree, Julie. Just imagine the Willow Tree and, like, try and channel that as as the the kind of feeling of of what it is that we're trying to do together.

这让我想起其他嘉宾提到的几件事。我曾邀请马克·贝尼奥夫上播客，问他该如何应对所有这些变化？现在的情况就像特工一样扑朔迷离。就像你说的，当巨变来临时，我们能否幸存？

This reminds me of a couple things from other guests. I had Mark Benioff on the podcast, and I asked him just how do you deal with all this change? Things are it's like agents now. It was I don't know. There's a GI coming, as you said, just like, do you survive?

他的建议是——他总是这样认为：'太棒了，这正是我们想要的。这很刺激，我们充满机遇，绝不会无聊。'

There's and his advice is just he's like, I'm always just like, good, this is great. This is what we want. This is exciting. We have so much opportunity. It's just not boring.

我们总能重塑自我，他始终坚信这是好事。我永远忘不了他当时的回答方式。

We can always reinvent and he's always embracing that this is good. And I just I'll never forget the way he responded to that.

我认为若你不觉得这是好事，生活会很痛苦。未来会非常艰难...所以我确实觉得在同等条件下，应该拥抱变化。如果能每天醒来都视之为机遇和兴奋而非恐惧——虽然它们是一体两面——但若能更关注可能性，同时承认另一面的存在，这样更好。有些管理者假装负面不存在，声称一切都好没人烦恼...

I think if you don't think it's good, it's kind of a painful way to live. It'll be very, very difficult over these next so I do think that it all things being equal, lean into it. Like, if you can wake up every day and see it as opportunity and excitement rather than fear, again, they're all flip sides of the same coin. But I think if we can lean more into what could it be while recognizing that the other side does exist and it's still there. And I think if managers who try to pretend like it isn't there, it's all good, no one's upset, etcetera.

关键在于承认现实：'是的，这很难。改变是痛苦的。我们可能会沮丧，会经历混乱。但我们会渡过难关，因为我们会保持灵活，着眼于充满可能性的大局——这才是令人振奋的。'

There's something also missing about just addressing and being able to be like, Yeah, it's hard. Change is hard. We're probably going to get upset. We're going to have some chaos. This is going to happen, but we will work through it because we're going to be flexible, and we're going to be able to put our eyes on the big picture of what is possible, which is exciting.

你刚才说的让我想起另一个难忘的引用——记不清具体是谁说的了，可能是凯文·威尔或迈克·克里格——他们说'现在是最正常的时刻，未来只会越来越荒诞'。我觉得让人们意识到'享受当下正常吧，因为以后只会更奇怪'，至少能给大家对发展趋势建立真实预期。

There's another quote that stuck that came and came up as you were talking. Forget who it was exactly, maybe Kevin Weil, maybe Mike Krieger, they said that this is the most normal things will be ever. Like, it will only get weirder. And I think giving people that sense of like, just enjoy this normal because this is going to be only weirder, well at least give people an expectation, real expectation of where things might be going.

没错，正是如此。

Yes, yes.

活在这个时代真是不可思议。

What a time to be alive.

真是个特别的时代。

What a time.

好的，让我再宏观一点来聊聊。我想问你，抛开AI不谈，管理在很多方面其实没有改变，依然是那些工作：管理团队、帮助他们成功、产出优秀成果。你认为有哪些最永恒、最重要的经验是管理者，尤其是新晋管理者至今仍未完全理解、需要更多了解的？能想到哪些要点？然后我们再看讨论走向。

Okay, let me zoom out even further and chat about, I want to ask you just outside of AI, management in many ways is unchanged, it's still a lot of the same work, managing people, helping them be successful, producing great work. What are just some of the, I'd say, most timeless, most important lessons that you think managers, especially new managers still don't totally understand, need to hear more? What are just some that come to mind, and then we'll see where this goes?

我首先想到的是管理自我和认知自我的重要性。这是我书中第五章的内容，标题就叫《管理自我》。其实写书时我曾想把这章放在第一章，但出版商说或许应该先讲些实操内容——人们通常不认为管理他人或团队要从自身开始。

The first thing that comes to mind is the importance of managing yourself and understanding yourself. This is chapter five of my book. It's called managing yourself. In fact, when I wrote it, I kinda wanted to be chapter one. And then my publisher's like, well, maybe you should get into some of the tactical like, people don't necessarily think managing other people or managing a team starts with them.

但我从根本上坚信这一点，因为所有人都像普通人一样有擅长和不擅长的领域。我深信每个优势本身也是劣势，每个劣势也是优势。没有人能在所有维度都做到100%完美。事实上，我认为最有意思的概念之一（这也是我给自己建立的框架，某种程度上也算数据框架概念）就是维度性这个概念。

But I really do fundamentally believe this because I think all of us are, of course, like any human being, we have things that we're strong at. We have things that we're weak at. And I am a very big believer that every strength is its own weakness, and every weakness is a strength. There's no such thing as you're gonna somehow, you know, get every dimension to be a 100%. In fact, I think one of the most interesting concepts that we can like, more frameworks for myself and also even this is also kind of like a data framework concept is this concept of dimensionality.

所谓维度性是指：虽然你是个完整的人，但我们可以从无限维度来观察你。比如'Lenny投掷斧头的准度如何'——这就是一个维度。

So what dimensionality means is, like, you're a human being, but we can kind of look at you in infinite dimensions. There is, for example, how good is Lenny at throwing an axe? That's one dimension.

还挺不错的。

There's Pretty good.

莱尼作为播客主持人的表现有多出色？简直棒极了。

How good is Lenny at being a podcast moderator? Fantastic.

一般般吧。还行，谢谢。

So so. Okay. Thank you.

莱尼在AI领域从零到一的项目能力如何？对吧？所以，我们可以把这些想象成无限维度。事实上，我们每个人的能力图谱都像指纹一样独特。

How good is Lenny at doing a zero to one type of project in the AI space? Right? So, again, just can think about these as infinite dimensions. And the reality is each of our profiles is very unique. It's like a fingerprint.

明白吗？对你而言，有些领域你特别擅长，可以说是顶尖的1%，有些领域在前10%，还有些领域表现平平，甚至某些维度可能低于平均水平。

Know? So for you, it's like these are all these areas that you're really great at, you know, much better, like, in the top 1%. And then there's some areas where in the top 10%. Then there's some areas where, like, kinda average. And then there's some some dimensions in which you're worse than average compared to other people.

这适用于我们所有人。我喜欢这个模型的原因是——如果你接受这个设定，就会意识到这些维度都不能完全定义你。比如我可以开玩笑说'莱尼，你的掷斧技巧有待提高'，但你不该理解为'朱莉娅说我是个糟糕的人，我的价值受到了质疑'。

And that's just true for all of us. And what I like about that is, therefore, if you take that as the model, right, things that then you realize that none of these dimensions are you entirely. So we can be you know, I can make a comment like, Lenny, your axe throwing really could use some improvement. And ideally, you're not like, Julia is saying I'm a bad person. I'm a my my is at risk.

对吧？因为这只是你众多维度中的一个。但有时我们会过度认同某些维度，误以为那就是完整的自我。管理者容易这样，团队成员也是。一旦如此，就很难客观讨论'哪些方面可以改进'了。

Right? Because it's just one dimension of who you are. But what happens sometimes is that we can get very attached to certain dimensions because we start to think that that's who we are. And I think managers can do that and clearly individuals on their teams. And when that happens, it starts to get very difficult to have, I think, more objective conversations about, okay, what can you get better at?

哪些方面可以适当弱化？我说这些是因为，至少对我自己和许多交流过的人而言，这个框架能帮助理解：收到反馈或在某些方面不足，只说明有进步空间——这并不定义你的本质。你是无数维度的集合体，没有任何单一维度能代表你作为个体的真正价值。我坚信每个人都是美好而值得尊重的。

What can you get worse at? And so I say all this because I think this framework for me at least and many people that I've talked to has helped them realize that somebody can give you feedback or you can be maybe not great at certain dimensions. We could have room to improve. And that's not who you are because you are all of these infinite dimensions in one, and none of them is is representative of, like, your true worth as an individual. I am a big believer that we are all beautiful and worthy.

当然，我们具备所有这些技能。是的，我们也希望提升这些能力。但这些技能的强弱并不能定义我们是否值得。因此我认为，如果你能理解并内化这一点，就能更客观地看待自己作为管理者的角色。你会意识到自己在某些领域确实非常出色。

And sure, we have all of these skills. And yes, we want to improve those skills. But it does not speak to whether we are worthy or not by saying whether we are strong or weak in these skills. And so I think if you can take that and really internalize that, then you can look at yourself a little bit more objectively as a manager. And you can realize that there are areas where you're going to be really strong.

也存在你带有偏见的领域。通常这两者其实是同一枚硬币的正反面。举个例子，过去我常从绩效评估中听到这样的反馈：'朱莉，你考虑问题非常周全'。

Are areas where you have biases. And often they are one and the same. So I'll give an example. People have often told me as like, I would get this in my performance reviews from managers in the past, like, hey, Julie. You're really thoughtful.

当你在思考某件事时，你有自己的一套思维方式。显然你进行了深入思考，形成了完整的分析框架等等，这很棒。但另一方面，我也收到过这样的反馈：'朱莉，在快速讨论中你不太发言，显得比较沉默，临场反应不够敏捷'。

So, you know, when you think about something, you have, like, a a a way to think about it. You've clearly thought about it in-depth, and you've got, like, these frameworks and all this. That's a great thing. And then on the flip side, I'll get feedback like, well, Julie, you know, you're you're don't really say a lot in in a dynamic discussion. Like, you're kinda quiet and, you know, you don't really think that quickly on your feet.

后来我意识到，正因为我不会即兴发挥，才使得我往往能考虑得非常周全。年轻时我就明白，这个所谓的弱点恰恰对应着我的优势——我不是那种会仓促下结论的人。我需要时间思考、消化，理清感受后才能表达。认清这一点对我帮助极大。

And what you realize is, like, these are kind of, again, too like, because I don't do that and I'm not just off the cuff, that's what allows me to oftentimes be very, very thoughtful. Right? Or like that at least, again, when I was younger, like, it's sort of it's very clear that that particular weakness also very much speaking to a particular strength, which is I am the kind of person that doesn't always have a snap judgment. I have to really think about it and internalize it and sometimes get to how I feel, and then I can share it and present it in the world. And so just knowing that about me is supremely helpful.

当然这并不意味着我无法改进。我常想，真正的精通在于认识到我们可以同时提升这两方面，并根据情境选择最合适的应对方式。收到反馈后，我开始练习如何在当面交流时更开放、更清晰地表达，比如会说'我还没完全想清楚，但目前的想法是...'，这些具体技巧能让我成为更高效的团队成员。

Now doesn't mean, of course, that I can never get better at this thing. But what I often think about is mastery is where we realize that both of these we can get better at, and what we want to do is just figure out in the context what makes sense to be. So I got this feedback, and I'm like, cool. One of the things I need to work on is figuring out how to be more open in person, how to speak a little bit more clearly in person, maybe say things like, I don't know exactly how I feel about it yet, but this is what I'm thinking right now. If there's still clear tactics that will allow me to be a more effective team member and to do a better job in the context of what I'm trying to do with my team.

我努力培养这些技能，但更关键的是掌握元技能——能够退后一步判断：在某些情境中，快速决策和立即行动至关重要，即使不完美也要推进；而在另一些情境中，正确的做法恰恰是深思熟虑，避免草率决定。

So I've tried to build those skills. But the meta skill is now being able to step back and say, okay, in certain context, it is really important that we move fast and we are decisive and we just do something. And even if it's not perfect, we just kinda have to do it. And if I struggle with that, I should realize that that's an area to improve upon. But there are other contexts in which the right thing to do is actually to take a step back and be very thoughtful and to not rush into decisions.

所以我的目标不是否定优势或弱点，而是认清这是我们与生俱来的特质。成长往往意味着学会做相反的事，但不是否定原有的长处，而是最终达到一种平衡——能根据具体情境判断：此刻我应该更谨慎思考，还是需要更果断地表达当下想法？

And so that's like so what I wanna get to is not like, let's reject the strength or this weakness, but just know that that's like where we come from. That's naturally we might be wired in a particular way. Our growth often looks like getting better at doing the opposite, but not rejecting, again, the thing that we're good at, but rather over time getting to this balance where we can read the context and the situation and know, should I lean a little more thoughtful, or is this a time where I need to try and be a little more decisive and just share what I need to what's on my mind right now?

我非常喜欢这个建议，即我们擅长的事情也有其弊端，而我们得到的反馈往往针对的是我们不那么擅长的方面。这其中存在一种人们欣赏的积极版本。我本想问你，虽然你已回答了大部分，但当你收到‘朱莉，你在会议中发言不够积极，贡献速度不够快’这样的反馈时，听起来一种选择就是接受现状——‘好吧，这就是我。’

I love this advice that things that we are incredible at have a downside, and oftentimes the feedback we're getting is something we're not great at. There's like a good version of that that people appreciate. And I was going to ask you, and I think you answered most of this, but just when you got this feedback of, hey, Julie, you're not speaking enough in these meetings, you're not contributing quickly enough. It sounds like so one option is just like, okay, cool. That's me.

这就是我的风格。我打算用其他方式解决问题，而不做任何改变。但我听到你说的是，要找到那些你确实想改变行为的契机，即便在节奏快速的特定情境下这并不自然。我想请教，你建议人们在自身不擅长的领域该逼迫自己到什么程度，又该在优势领域投入多少精力？

That's how I am. And I'm just going to solve the problem this other way and then just not going to change anything. What I heard you say is find opportunities where that's actually you want to actually change that behavior, even though it doesn't come naturally in specific situations where things are moving fast. I guess just how far do you recommend people push themselves in things they're not great at versus leaning further further into their things their their strengths?

正是如此。我认为这是个极好的问题。我的思考角度是：这很大程度上取决于你的目标。比如，我们以独立贡献者（IC）和管理者为例——我常将IC的成长路径视为对某项技艺的深耕。

That's it. I think that's a really great question. So the way I think about it is it is very dependent on what is your goal. So for example, let's say that you are let's even take, for example, ICs versus managers. I think often about the pathway of an IC, an individual contributor, as wanting to deepen a craft.

就像你痴迷于某件事，只想在这个特定技能或手艺上不断精进。在我们的多维模型中，你选择几个维度专注突破——‘我要成为前0.01%的顶尖者’，这基本就是IC的发展路径。如果你的高层次目标是‘我希望每天投入十小时做热爱之事，并能以此谋生（获得报酬和理想工作）’

Like, you just you love this thing, and you just wanna get better and better and better at this very specific skill or this craft. Right? So think about in our dimension, infinite it's like you pick a couple dimensions. Like, I just want these to be I wanna be, like, the top point 01%, and that's that's kind of the pathway of extending as an IC. Now if that's your high level goal and you're like, I wanna be able let's say your high level goal is I wanna be able to do this, you know, ten hours a day because I love it, and I wanna be able to support myself doing it, meaning I get paid and I have, like, a great job.

同时通过这件事对世界产生重大影响。那么你需要审视：仅靠深化这些技能的策略，是否存在实现目标的路径？

And I want, you know, to have a bunch of impact in the world by doing this thing. Right? So, again, you still have goals. Then you have to see, okay. Does my strategy of just deepening these things, is that is there a pathway to reach my goals according to that?

如果答案是肯定的，那就太棒了。当有人问‘你想当管理者吗？’，你可以直接拒绝：‘不需要，因为我的目标通过当前路径就能实现。’

And if there is, awesome. Then if someone's like, hey. Do you wanna be a manager? You're like, nope. Don't need to because these are my goals, and this pathway actually allows me to do that.

但如果某天你发现，想要精通的技能在商业上不可行，无法支撑你购买理想豪宅或养家糊口，就必须自问：‘仅靠这个行不通了。或许我需要学习其他技能，才能胜任能带来高薪的工作，从而负担起那座豪宅。’

But if somehow you get to a point where, no. No. The skill you really want to perfect is not something that may be commercially viable in the world that's gonna somehow allow you to buy the the big mansion that you wanna buy to support your family, then I think you have to ask yourself, okay. So if I just do this, it's not gonna cut it. I might actually need to learn some of these other skills in order to be able to fulfill the job that is going to be valuable enough that people are gonna pay me a bunch of money at this certain level so that I can afford my mansion.

所以我认为这归根结底还是要回到你的目标是什么。确实存在这样的情况，比如，它支持你实现目标并深化你的技艺，但也存在不支持的情况。我认为这是个非常个人化的问题。但通常我认为痛苦源于这些事未能协调一致。

So I just think it has to go back to, like, what are your goals? And there are cases in which, yes, like, it supports it'll support your goal to do this and to deepen your craft, and there are cases in which it won't. And I think it's important. It's a very individual question for each person. But what I often think suffering is, is when these things are not aligned.

你想要的可能是一座豪宅之类的。但你又想，我只想把所有时间都花在完善我的煎蛋卷上。于是你就处在这种矛盾中，很难感到满足和充实，因为你会想，为什么世界不认可我精湛的煎蛋卷技术呢？好吧，你可以成为煎蛋卷大师。

So what you want is like the giant mansion and all of that. But you're like, but I also just want to spend all my time perfecting my egg omelet. And then you're just, like, in this tension place, and you it's very hard to feel satisfied and fulfilled because you're a little bit like, oh, why doesn't the world value my my deep egg omelet skills? Like, okay. You can be egg omelet.

你只需要，也许不做这件事。或者如果你想要这个，你可能真的需要更擅长做煎蛋卷。也许你需要扩展你的烹饪技能，去开一家米其林星级餐厅之类的。

You just have to, you know, maybe not do this thing. Or if you want this thing, you may actually need to be better at just egg omelets. Like, perhaps you need to expand your repertoire of cuisines and, like, go and build a Michelin star restaurant or something.

这真是很好的建议。并不是说一定要总是弥补你的弱点或完全忽略它们。而是如果你需要做某件事来实现某个目标，确保你清楚自己的目标是什么，然后这件事是否是你需要努力的。例如，如果你想成为副总裁，你可能需要非常擅长在重要会议上即兴发言，而不是等到一切都结束后才发邮件分享你的想法。

This is really good advice. It's not just, like, definitely always work on your weaknesses or don't worry about them. It's if you need to do this thing to achieve this goal that you have, make sure you understand what your goal is, and then is this thing a thing you need to work on? For example, if you're become a VP, you probably need to be really good in big important meetings and not being on the spot and just not, you know, waiting until everything's over and then sharing an email with your all your thoughts. That's right.

是的，实际上我经历过一段时期，那时我想，我不想升职。我非常满足于这个特定的角色，就让我一个人待着。那条路与我需要培养的管理技能完全不同。后来事情发生了变化，好吧。

Yeah, for me actually went through a period where I was like, I do not want to get promoted. I'm so happy in this very specific role, Just like, leave me alone. And and and that path is very different from the skills I need to build to be a manager. And then things change. And then, okay.

现在这些就是你该努力的方向了。

Now these are the things that you'd work on.

是的。我很欣赏你对自己有这样的认识，因为我觉得对一个年轻人来说，在职业生涯中很容易被周围的人影响，可能他们的家人一直在告诉他们，你需要提升，你需要赚更多钱，你需要获得经理头衔，你需要成为副总裁。

Yeah. I love that you knew that about yourself because I think it's so easy for, know, a young person to go in their careers, and everyone is telling them maybe their whole family has been telling them, like, you need to get You need to level up. You need to get paid more. You need to get that manager title. You need to get a VP.

某种程度上，我认为人们有时会在不了解实际要面对什么的情况下就选择了这条路。比如，需要付出什么代价？这真的是你想做的吗？这真的符合你的热情所在吗？当然，有时候我们不得不再次妥协。

And at a certain point, I think sometimes people opt into this without knowing what they're actually signing up for. Like, what are the trade offs? And is that really what you wanna do? Does that really align with your passions? And, of course, you know, sometimes we have to again, it's like it's a compromise for us.

对吧？但我们可以主动设计。我们可以规划自己的目标以及正确的实现路径。我常发现，当人们感到不快乐时，往往是因为这些因素有些脱节——他们渴望某个宏大目标，但对实现目标所需的过程并不真正感到兴奋，这就导致了错位。

Right? But we get to design. Like, we get to design what are our goals and what's the right pathway. And I go back to usually, when people are unhappy, it's because these things are a little bit out of sync. Like, they want this big thing, but they don't actually they are not actually excited about what it takes to do that thing, and therefore, it's just going to be a mismatch.

顺着这个思路，听起来好像'哦当然，我可以设计人生和角色'。但我的经验是，只要你先明确自己热爱且理想的状态，哪怕只是向主管提及这个想法，实际可能性往往超乎你的预期。

And along those lines, it sounds like, oh, sure. I can design my life and design my role. But what I find is if you at least, first of all, know what you'd love and ideally do, and then at least mention that to your manager, it often is a lot more possible than you think.

百分之百同意。关键在于我们常有个思维误区：把主管当作审判者，认为他们会评判我是否表现优秀、该晋升还是解雇。这种恐惧确实普遍存在。

A 100%. I think it's so important to be like, we often also have this mental model like, oh, our managers are a judge, and they're gonna judge me on whether or not I got it I did well. I should get a promotion. I should be fired. So there's this sometimes fear that people have.

但最理想的上下级关系里，主管更像是向导。要知道，主管的核心职责是带领团队取得更好成果。如果你能理解主管对团队成功的定义，就更容易提出'如果我做这个项目，显然能直接为团队创造价值'这样的方案。

But I think in the very best relationships, the manager is like a guide. It's like, look. The manager has a job. And if you understand your manager's job, which is how to get outcomes better outcomes from the team, and also you understand what exactly would your manager consider success for the team. It also makes it easier for you to then be like, oh, well, if I do this project, then that clearly seems like it's very, you know, direct path to creating value for the team.

同时这个项目还契合我的专长，让我充满干劲——你就该主动向主管提议。反过来也同样成立，对吧？

And that also is a kind of project that suits my skills. It's something I'm excited about. Like, you should suggest that to your manager. But the other is true. Right?

所以如果你直接询问主管'您的核心职责是什么？您如何定义成功？您对团队最大的期待是什么？'，掌握了这些背景，你就能更好地规划自己的职业发展。同样地，当你告诉主管'这是我的志向，这是我的优势，我特别想提升这项技能'时...

So you would know that if you actually asked your manager, what is your job and what do you consider success to be and what is your greatest hopes and dreams. And then you might be able to help your own career and yourself because you know that context. And conversely, if you say, hey, manager, these are my hopes and dreams. This is what I think I'm good at. I really wanna get better at this skill.

我真的很想获得那个副总裁的晋升机会，但我不知道它具体包含什么。你能告诉我吗？比如，需要具备哪些条件？这是一次非常有意义的对话，因为这样你就能了解所有背景信息，然后才能真正决定是否想要争取。如果你确实想要，那就向你的经理寻求帮助。

I really wanna get that VP promotion, but I don't know what it entails. Can you tell me? Like, what does it take? That's a really wonderful conversation as well because then you'll get all of that context, and then you can actually decide whether you wanna do it or not. And if you want to, then ask your manager for help.

好的。如果你看到能帮助我成为更好的演讲者或提升沟通能力的机会，请告诉我。更棒的是，如果你对我沟通方面有反馈，我很想听听，因为这正是能帮助我在这一特定技能上成长的关键。这样我们的关系就会变得更加协作，而不是那种近乎对抗的状态，比如我试图让你给我升职，而你则试图让我更努力工作。

Okay. If you see opportunities that are gonna help me become a better presenter or increase my communication, please tell me. Even better, if you have feedback from me about communication, I wanna hear it because that's what's gonna help me grow in this particular skill. And so it becomes this collaborative relationship much more so than this almost, like, adversarial, like, I'm trying to get you to give me a promotion, and you're trying to get me to, like, work harder. Like, it's yeah.

那种氛围确实不太好。

Like, it that is not a a very good vibe.

这让我想起 Ethan Evans 的一篇客座文章，我会附上链接，里面有一个非常好的框架，叫做“魔法循环”，正好可以指导你如何做到你所说的这些。

There's a it reminds me of a guest post by Ethan Evans that I'll link to that has a really good framework for how to actually do exactly what you're talking about called the magic loop

嗯。

Mhmm.

这个框架帮助你弄清楚应该专注于哪些方面，以及如何让你的经理看到你的能力并赢得信任。本期节目由 Posthog 赞助，这是一个工程师真正喜欢使用的产品平台。Posthog 为创始人、开发者和产品团队提供所需的一切工具，包括产品分析、网络分析、会话回放、热图、实验、调查、LLM 可观测性、事件跟踪等。Posthog 的所有功能都附带每月重置的慷慨免费层级，超过 90% 的客户免费使用 Posthog。

Where it's kind of a framework for figuring out what to work on and how to help your manager see you're capable of stuff and earn that trust. This episode is brought to you by Posthog, the product platform your engineers actually want to use. Posthog has all the tools that founders, developers, and product teams need, like product analytics, web analytics, session replays, heat maps, experimentation, surveys, LLM observability, air tracking, and more. Everything Posthog offers comes with a generous free tier that resets every month. More than 90% of customers use Posthoc for free.

你会爱上与如此透明且技术精湛的团队合作。你会看到工程师为你的问题提交拉取请求，他们的支持团队在遇到棘手问题时提供代码级别的帮助。Posthog 让你将所有数据集中在一个地方。除了分析事件，他们的数据仓库还能同步来自 Postgres 数据库、Stripe、HubSpot、S3 等多种来源的数据。最后，他们新推出的 AI 产品分析师 MaxAI 帮助你更快取得进展。

You are gonna love working with a team this transparent and technical. You'll see engineers landing pull requests for your issues, and their support team provides code level assistance when things get tricky. Posthog lets you have all your data in one place. Beyond analytics events, their data warehouse enables you to sync data from your Postgres database, Stripe, HubSpot, s three, and many more sources. Finally, their new AI product analyst, MaxAI, helps you get further, faster.

获取帮助构建复杂查询并设置账户，专家随时待命。立即免费注册posthog.com/lenny，记得告诉他们Lenny推荐了你。网址是posth0g.com/lenny。关于永恒的管理之道，尤其是对新任管理者的建议，你已经分享了很多。还有其他你认为非常重要、有趣或有价值的内容吗？

Get help building complex queries and setting up your account with an expert who's always standing by. Sign up today for free at posthog.com/lenny, and make sure to tell them Lenny sent you. That's posth0g.com/lenny. So along the lines of timeless manager, especially new manager advice, you've shared a bunch. Is there anything else that you think is really important, really interesting, valuable?

反馈是我极度热衷的另一个话题。我对自己和共事过的所有人的总体印象是，我们不够重视反馈或思考不足。公司有绩效周期，所以我们都会说，好的，每六个月做一次评估，那时我才会得到反馈。

Feedback is one of the other topics that I am super duper passionate about. And my general impression for both myself, everyone I've worked with is that we don't value feedback enough or we don't kind of think about enough. Again, companies have these performance cycles, and so we're all like, yes. Every six months, we're gonna go and do these reviews. That's when I'll get feedback.

但在我看来，反馈理想情况下应该是一种日常实践。因为长远来看，团队真正重要的是我们进步的速度。一个每周进步1%的团队，相比每月进步1%的团队，即使起点低得多，也会在短时间内超越不进步的团队。而让我们进步的最佳工具是什么？就是反馈。我认为反馈与我们之前讨论的数据和指标非常相似。

But feedback really, in my mind, ideally, should be like a daily practice Because the thing that matters for us in the long run as a team is how quickly are we getting better. So a team that just gets 1% better every week compared to a team that gets 1% better a month is even if they start off at a much lower baseline is going to outperform in a very short amount of time the team that doesn't get better. And so what is the best tool for us to get better? It is feedback. And what I think about in feedback is it is it's very similar to what we said earlier about data and metrics.

本质上，它是试图将你的假设与现实进行验证。举个例子，也许我现在认为自己是一个积极且吸引人的演讲者。我感觉自己在微笑，很有吸引力，讲着精彩的故事，但这是真的吗？我不知道。现实是我常常有偏见，我们都知道这些心理效应。

It's essentially trying to put your hypotheses and test them against reality. So as an example, maybe I have this perception right now that I am a positive and engaging speaker. So I have this sense that, like, I'm smiling and I'm very engaging and I'm telling great stories, but is that really true? I don't know. Like, the reality is that I'm often biased and we know these psychological effects.

比如邓宁-克鲁格效应。人们往往高估自己的专业能力。你问别人，嘿，你开车比平均水平好吗？大约70%或80%的人会说，是的，我比平均水平好。这怎么可能呢？

We're like sometimes the Dunning Kruger effect. People think they're way more expert at something than they actually are. You ask people, hey, are you better than average driver? And it's like 70% or 80% of people are like, yes, I'm better than average. How could that possibly be?

我们有偏见。冒名顶替综合症则是另一种偏见。就像我觉得，哦，我太差了，我不属于这里。而这也是一种偏见。

We have biases. And impostor syndrome is a bias on the other side. It's like me feeling, oh, I suck. I don't actually belong here. Whereas that also is a bias.

实际上可能并非如此。事实上，我可能完全属于这里，其他人也重视我的贡献。很多时候，我们对自己的认知、优点、缺点和现状严重脱节。而理解和真正进步的方式，是需要他人反映他们的真实看法。我想的是，这期播客结束后我会向你寻求反馈，你会告诉我一些东西。

Like, it may not actually be true. In fact, I might very well be here and other people value my contribution. So we are just wildly out of sync a lot of times in our perceptions of ourselves, our strengths, our weaknesses, what's going on. And the way that we're going to understand and truly get better is we need other people to reflect back what is actually their truth. And the way I think about it is like, I'm gonna ask you for feedback after this podcast episode, and you're gonna tell me something.

你要做的就是送给我一份礼物，因为这份礼物能反映出你所看到而我无法察觉的东西。就像如果我后脑勺粘了片叶子，我自己是看不见的。所以如果你告诉我‘嘿朱莉，你头上有片叶子’，我就会说‘哇哦’

And what you're gonna do is you're gonna give me a gift Because it'll be a gift of reflecting something back of what you see that I can't see. Right? Just like if I have a leaf in the back of my head, I can't see that. And so if you tell me, hey, Julie, I have a leaf. Oh, wow.

谢谢提醒。也许我能把叶子弄掉或怎样。但这就是反馈的本质——它本质上是一面镜子。

Thank you. Okay. Maybe I can get rid of the leaf or or whatnot. But that is what feedback is. It is essentially reflection back.

它帮助我们校准现实，让我获得关于自己是否朝着目标方向前进的信息。

It helps us calibrate to reality, and it allows me to get this information about whether or not I'm moving in the direction of my goals.

说得太棒了。我完全同意。你知道，大多数人的挑战在于如何给出让对方乐于接受而不产生防御心理的反馈，以及接收反馈时不会想着‘他们根本不懂’。

I love that. I completely agree. The challenge for most people, as you know, is giving feedback that people receive and don't feel defensive about, and then receiving feedback and not being like, oh, no. They don't know. They don't know anything.

他们怎么敢这样评价我？能否给我们一两个建议，关于如何有效给予和接受反馈？或许还可以说说如何主动获取更多反馈？因为道理大家都懂，但现实中人们往往得不到任何反馈。

How dare they say this about me? Could you give us a maybe a tip or two for delivering feedback well and for receiving feedback well, and maybe even just, like, seeking how do you get more feedback? Because this all makes a lot of sense. Most of the time, people don't get any feedback.

第一个关键建议是：在获取或传达艰难反馈前，首先要建立彼此珍视对方贡献的关系基础。我们应当抱着共同成长的心态，成为那种每周都会相互反馈的人。所以刚开始合作时，不要等问题发生了才给反馈——那已经是高压状态了。

The best way the first tip on getting feedback or delivering hard feedback is first go and actually establish that our relationship is one in which we value each other's contribution. We wanna help each other grow, and therefore, gonna be the kind of people that wanna give feedback to each other every week. So when you first start working with someone, don't wait until something bad has happened. Now you have given feedback. That's already a pressurized situation.

一开始就该说：‘很高兴与你共事，我认为最佳的合作状态是希望你帮助我进步。我擅长这些方面，但这些方面还有不足。’

Start by saying, hey. Really excited to work with you. I feel like our best collaboration is I want you to help me get better. I think I'm good at this stuff. I'm not so good at this stuff.

那你呢？好吧。你觉得你擅长这些事吗？要不我们一起合作，互相帮助提升？我们的做法是：所有反馈都是公开透明的。

What about you? Okay. You think you're you're good at this stuff or not? How about we just work together and we just help each other get better at these things? And the way we're gonna do that is all feedback is open.

我要你告诉我所有事情。理想情况下你会说'好的'。我要你毫无保留地反馈——这点我们早就达成共识了。

I want you to tell me everything. Ideally, you're gonna then be say, yeah. I want you to tell me everything, and we've already established that.

这个适用于同事、上级还是所有人？

And this is colleagues or manager or all?

所有人。约会对象、孩子都可以。关键是明确我们想要建立什么样的关系。多数人都渴望能建立亲密的关系。

It's like everyone. It's like people you're dating. It's like, you know, your children. Like, it's it can be with everyone just establishing what kind of relationship do we wanna have. I think most people wanna opt into a relationship where you can be close.

彼此可以紧密无间，直言不讳而不必隐藏。我相信多数人会选择这种模式。一旦选择，后续所有事都会变简单。所以首先要让大家认同：这就是我们想要的关系。

You can be tight with one another. You can say things to one another and not have to hide behind. Like, I think most people will opt into it. And if you opt into it, everything gets easier down the road. So the first thing is get everyone to opt in that, like, this is the kind of relationship that we want have.

我听过一个类似的有效技巧：直接问对方'你希望即时反馈还是定期反馈？比如每月或每周？'大家都会说'不不，就要即时反馈'。这样就获得了随时反馈的许可。

One trickle throughout that I've heard that worked really well along these same lines is asking people, you prefer, do you prefer feedback in the moment or do you prefer it kind of everyone's in everyone, every month or every week or something like that? Everyone's like, no, no, in the moment. And just like tell me as soon as something happens. And then that gives you that freedom to just, okay, yeah, let me give you feedback here.

没错。只要让大家认同'我们要建立优质关系，互相促进成长，我需要反馈'这个理念，后续艰难反馈的难度就降低了60%。

Yeah. So if you get people to opt in, yes, I want us to have a great relationship. I want us to help each other get better. I want feedback. That's 60% of the hard part of delivering difficult feedback later on.

那么我要说的第二个策略是，当你真正给予反馈时，这会很有帮助。首先，你必须确认，我给出这个反馈是否真的是出于互相帮助的初衷？如果答案是肯定的，那么我们就已经从60%提升到了80%。事情会顺利的，对吧？

So then the second tactic I will say is that when you actually give the feedback, it helps a lot. First, you have to check, am I actually giving this feedback because it's in the spirit of trying to help one another? And if the answer is yes, then we're we've, like, you know, moved from 60% to 80%. It's gonna go well. Right?

但经常发生的情况是，我感觉某件事发生了。你做了某事。这触发了我的情绪，因为，我不知道，我以前对这类事情有过不好的经历，所以我有点生气，想要证明自己是对的。比如，如果我想给你反馈的真正理由是我想要自我验证，想要证明自己是对的，想要告诉你你错了，想要惩罚你，那事情就不会顺利。从一开始就注定了。

But what can often happen is I'm feeling like, something happens. You do something. It triggers me because, I don't know, I had, like, a bad experience about that type of thing before, and so I'm kinda feeling mad, and I want to be right. Like, if my my real rationale for why I wanna give you feedback is I want to validate myself, I wanna be right, I want to tell you you're wrong, I wanna punish you, it's not gonna go well. It's just already there.

除非你是个出色的演员，否则你根本无法以某种方式传达它。事情就是不会顺利。所以你必须首先检查你的意图。但如果你已经这样做了，你就会说，不。不。

It's there's no way you can deliver it and somehow unless you're a tremendous actor. It's just not gonna go well. So you have to first check your intention. But if you've done that, you're like, no. No.

不。我已经考虑过了。我现在很冷静。我没有，比如，气得发红。我真的认为Lenny只是没有意识到，当他说这些话时，会让我和其他人感到被排斥或类似的感觉。

No. I thought about it. I'm calm now. I'm not, like, see seeing red. I really think that Lenny is just not aware that when he says this, it makes me and other people feel left out or whatever it is.

对吧？那么我需要能够告诉你。所以通常如果你说，好吧。现在我可能会紧张，因为我不想冒犯你。我非常重视我们的关系。

Right? Then I need to be able to give it to you. And so usually then if you're like, okay. Now I might be nervous because I don't wanna offend you. I really value our relationship.

我该怎么告诉你呢？你知道，我不想让你有防御心理。那么我的第三个策略就是大声说出来。比如，如果我坐下来对你说，Lenny，我现在非常紧张，因为我想给你一些反馈，我真的很担心这会影响到我们的关系。我非常重视我们的关系，我不希望那样的事情发生。

How am I gonna tell you? You know, I don't want you to get defensive. What then the third tactic I have is just say that out loud. Like, if I sit down with you and I say, Lenny, I'm so nervous right now, because I wanna give you some feedback, and I'm really worried that it's gonna impact our relationship. And I so value our relationship, and I don't want that to happen.

但我也觉得，如果你能听到这个反馈，对你会有帮助。这已经完成了大部分的工作，它让人性化。对吧？你会意识到我正在冒险。我真的很脆弱。

But I also feel like it's just gonna help you to hear it if you can. That does so much of the work of of it's it's humanizing. Right? It's like you're gonna be you're gonna realize that I'm going out on a limb. I'm being really vulnerable.

而且，你可能会听到这句话的次数，远超过我只是随便找个方式轻描淡写地带过。因为这件事本身就很难，不如直接承认它的难度并展现出来，这样反而能建立更深的人际连接。

And likely, you're going to hear that so much more than if I just find a way to, like, drop it. Like, it just, like, lobby it over because it's so difficult. Just actually lean into the fact that it is difficult and expose that because that builds a lot of human connection.

这个建议太棒了，非常实用。好的，还有其他内容吗？我们已经讨论了一些永恒的管理智慧，尤其是新晋管理者需要听到的东西。

This is amazing advice. Very tactical. Okay. Is there anything else? So we've talked about a bunch of timeless pieces of manager wisdom, things that people need to hear, especially as new managers.

你觉得还有哪些非常重要，但人们尚未完全领悟的成为优秀管理者的要点？

Is there anything else that you think is really important that I think people are just not fully grokking for being great managers?

我认为'双赢'这个概念，我一直在思考。我经常回顾这一点，因为我们脑海中常有一种对抗性的叙事。作为管理者，我试图让人们更高效，可能是在推动他们做不愿意的事，或让他们更努力，施加更多压力。

I think the idea of win win, I think about that all the time in my mind. And I go back to because I think that often we have this story in our heads that sometimes things are adversarial. As a manager, I'm trying to get people to be more productive. So I'm trying to get them to do a thing that maybe they don't wanna do. I'm gonna try and get them to work harder, or I'm going to somehow put more pressure on them.

如果你开始这样想，那就不是双赢思维了，对吧？这就像在说：我的成功必须建立在他人损失的基础上。以这种思维出发，很难制定策略或真正成功。但如果你说——

Like, if you start thinking like that, that's not a win win way to be thinking. Right? That's like you saying, my getting better outcomes has to come at the expense of somebody else losing something. And I think if you start thinking like that, it's very difficult to come up with a strategy or to truly be successful. But if you say, look.

实际上，我的职责是创造双赢。所以长远来看，我不希望让任何人觉得我只是在施加压力，导致他们过度透支、快速崩溃。这对团队不利，对我不利，

Actually, my job is to figure out how to create win wins. So I actually don't want. I don't want somebody over the long run to feel like what I've done is just create a ton of pressure for them, and now they're super burnt out and they're real quick. Because that's not good for our team. That's not good for me.

也不利于我们的长期关系。如何找到双赢的解决方案？以这种思维方式，许多事会变得简单。比如对新管理者而言——我自己初次告知某人不适合团队时也极度焦虑，主要原因是代入对方视角后，觉得这简直糟透了，仿佛给这个人造成了巨大伤害。

That's not good for our long term relationship. How do we find a like, how do we find the solution that can be win win? And I think if you think like that, a lot of things get easier. So for example, with new managers, I think this is true for me too, the first time I had to tell someone that they're not that they shouldn't be a part of this team was extremely fraught for me. And the main reason was because I'm putting myself in their shoes, and I'm imagining that this is truly horrible, and I've just done a a huge disservice to this person, and that's, like, the most awful thing.

但还有另一种看待方式，那就是：听着，如果团队中有人，他们可能渴望成功。他们想做出卓越的工作。他们希望被重视。他们想发展自己的职业生涯。

But there's another way to look at it, which is, hey. If there's persons on the team, they probably wanna be successful. They wanna do great work. They wanna be valued. They wanna grow their career.

如果这里不适合他们，因为与他们的真实兴趣不符，或者那些能帮助他们成功的事情，要么是他们此刻不想做的，要么是做不到的，那么我强行维持现状对这个人没有任何好处。实际上只会更痛苦——就像我是在延长这种痛苦状态。所以有时候双赢的做法就是直说：看，这行不通。我非常尊重和重视你，所以我知道你想做能让自己自豪、能成长并真正被重视的事。而眼下我们这里的情况，并不符合。

If this is not the place for them because it doesn't align with their true interests and the things that are gonna help them be successful is just not the thing that they either want to do or can do at this point, it doesn't do that person any good for me to somehow try to continue to make it. It's actually gonna be miserable. Like, I'm going back to, like, prolonging that misery state. And so sometimes a win win thing is to just say, look, it's not working, I know I respect and value you so much that I know you want to do something that you can be proud of and you can grow in and that's gonna be really valued. And right here, what we got, this isn't it.

这才是看待局面的双赢视角，而不是那种'解雇他们肯定很糟糕'的想法。当然不是说这不会很难，显然很难。但关键在于心态和思维模式——这会带来天壤之别。因为这会改变我传达给他们的方式，会改变这件事在更宏大格局中可能带来的积极意义，也会减少对立情绪，避免让他们视我为敌人或掌握生杀大权的决策者。这必须是协作。如果达不到双赢——当然我可能判断错误...

That's like a win win way of looking at the situation, not a like, you know, oh, my firing them is just definitely gonna be a horrible you know, I'm not trying to say it's not gonna be hard. Obviously, it's hard, but it's in the in the the mentality and the the the mental model, I think, makes all the difference difference because it's gonna be different in the way that I convey it to them. It's gonna be different in why this actually in the grander scheme of things may be great, and it's gonna reduce this adversarial feeling where they're now gonna see me as like an enemy or somebody with all this power who's making choices that impact them and they feel powerless. It has to be a collaboration. And I think if it's not win win, if and I could be wrong.

我会说我认为这不合适。对方完全可以反驳说'你错了'——这反而是宝贵信息，因为这样我们或许能重新找到双赢的方案。

I would say I don't think it's right. The person could actually say, no. You're wrong. That would actually be great information because then maybe we can go back and we can find a way to make it win win.

对。我正想说，他们必须真心相信这点。你不能只是说得好听：'这是好事——你被解雇了。'

Yeah. I was just gonna say, they have to believe this. You can't just make it sound like this. Here's the win. You're getting let go.

'对你来说是重大利好。'但事实上，你的表述方式几乎总是成立的——这里确实不是能让你快乐和成功的地方，去做别的事更好。好吧，我继续在这个话题里挖掘看看还有什么，不过快结束时提醒我：你觉得还有什么新人经理必须知道却还没完全理解的事？

It's a huge win for you. Yeah. But in reality, the way you phrased it is actually almost always true. Like this is just not a place that you'll be happy and succeed at, and it's better you go do something else. Okay, I'm going to keep fishing in this pool to see what else we got, but when we run out, let me know, is there anything else that you think people should know, should hear, especially new managers that they're still not fully getting?

我认为觉察自己的能量和信念非常重要。就像很多主题最终都回归到——你必须先理解自我并建立正确心态。做到这点后，你对他人的影响力就会容易得多。这是另一点：很多经理人很难...我们讨论过经理人的三大核心工具支柱。

I think being aware of peep your own energy and conviction is really, really important. So I go back it's like a lot of these themes, as you can see, go back to, like, you have to first understand this about yourself and have the right mindset. And when you do, it becomes much easier to be able to be impactful with other people. So this is another one. I think it's very difficult for managers to be able you know, we talked a lot about the three pillars of what are the the major tools of a manager.

对吧？首先是人的因素。我们讨论了很多关于维度性、反馈以及帮助人们反思和成长的重要性。其次是目标。目标就像是，我们在这里要做什么？

Right? The first is people. And so we talked a lot about, like, the importance of dimensionality and feedback and helping reflect and grow people. And the second one is around purpose. Purpose is like, what are we here to do?

我们的北极星是什么？我认为如果你自己没有信念，实际上很难传达这一点。因此，观察你的信念非常重要，尤其是因为很多管理者一开始并不是公司的创始人或CEO，而可能是一个中层管理者。所以在某些方面，你甚至不参与愿景的制定，但某种程度上你被期望去执行它或承担其中一部分。我发现有时新管理者不够关注的是他们真正的信念是什么？

What's our North Star? And I think it's very hard to actually convey that if you don't have conviction yourself. And so watching your conviction is really important, particularly since a lot of people who are managers, you often start out not as, like, the founder or the CEO of the company, but you're you might be, like, a middle manager. So in some ways, you don't even, like, create the vision, but you are in some ways expected to execute it or take a piece of it and do it. And I find that sometimes what new managers don't pay attention to enough is what is their true belief?

比如，他们可能觉得自己必须像个士兵一样。所以他们只是接受命令并执行。但如果他们自己花时间去思考——等等，我们为什么要这么做？我真的相信这个策略吗？它是否有意义？——这真的会带来不同。

Like, they feel like they might have to be like a soldier. So they just get orders and have to execute it. But it really makes a difference if they themselves have gone through the work of of of thinking through, wait. Why are we doing This do I believe this strategy? Does it make sense or not?

如果觉得不合理，就应该去和你的经理或其他相关人进行对话，这样他们可以达成一致，真正相信自己在做的事情。因为如果你不真正相信自己在做的事情，或者只是机械地传递组织中的信息，你很难帮助他人看到其中的魔力，或者作为一个能够坚持愿景和目标的人真正发挥作用。所以我认为你必须真正审视自己——等等，我知道我们被告知要这么做，这是我们必须做的，但我们对此的真实感受如何？因为如果你感觉不好，那么这个项目成功的可能性就不大。

And if it doesn't make sense to go and actually have the conversation with, you know, their manager or whoever else just so they under they can get to alignment on, I really believe in what I'm doing. Because if you don't really believe in what you're doing and or you're just kind of parroting the thing that got passed through the organization, it's very hard for you to then be able to help other people see what that magic is or to be actually really effective as a person who can hold that vision and that purpose. So I just think you have to really check-in with yourself on, like, wait. I I know we're told to do this, and this is what we have to do, but how do we really feel about it? Because if you don't feel good about it, then it's not gonna be very likely that the project's gonna succeed.

我可以直接告诉你，我管理过的每一个经理，如果他们觉得‘我真的不认为这是个好主意’，没有一个项目最终能取得巨大成功。

I can tell you right now. Every single manager I've ever managed where they're like, I don't really think this is a good idea, the there's no case where I can think over the project somehow turned out to be, like, wildly successful.

这是管理者面临的经典挑战——执行那些你并不真正认同的事情。我不禁要向你寻求建议，对于那些处于这种境地的人，比如‘好吧，我们有这个功能，CEO在优先考虑。我只是觉得这不是个好主意，但我需要表现得勇敢，不能让人觉得我只是在听命行事，我不相信这个。’你不想那样做，否则你会成为一个糟糕的、不成功的经理，人们会失去对你的信任。你对那些处于这种境地的人有什么建议，如何找到平衡？

This is such a classic challenge of managers is getting things done that you don't really agree with. And I can't help but ask you for advice on someone that isn't that in that place of just, okay. We have this feature, our CEO is prioritizing. I just this is not a good idea, but I need to have a brave face and not make it sound like I'm just being told what to do and I'm just reporting orders, I don't believe in this, you don't want to do that, you've become a terrible unsuccessful manager and people lose trust in you. What's your advice to folks that are in that place of just how to find that balance?

所以我认为，首先，如果你有这种感觉，你必须找到一种方式表达出来并进行对话。比如，‘我觉得我的经理让我这么做，我认为这是个糟糕的主意。’你必须和你的经理或CEO谈谈，因为一旦你开始对话，通常会发生的是你会了解更多。你会获得新的信息。

So I think first, if you feel that way, you gotta actually find a way to get it out and and engage in dialogue. So if you're like, I think my manager told me to do this. I think it's a terrible idea. You gotta talk to your manager about it or you gotta talk to the CEO or whoever and feel because once you engage in a dialogue, what will often happen is you'll learn more. Like, you'll have new information.

你会产生新的假设，或许还会以某种方式影响项目。但通常，你了解得越多越好。为什么其他聪明人认为我们应该这样做？其中哪些部分我认同，哪些部分我持怀疑态度？你可以从笼统的好坏判断中分解出具体观点。

You'll have new assumptions, and maybe you'll have influenced the project in some manner. But often, the more you can learn about, okay. Why did some other smart people feel like we should do this? And what parts of it do I believe, and what parts am I more skeptical about? Like, you can probably decompose it from a blanket, it's good or bad, to, like, okay.

这是一个假设。这是另一个假设。这个假设我可能有点认同。我不喜欢这个提案的原因在于我不相信这个特定假设，但我认同其他几个假设。

There's this is a hypothesis. This is a hypothesis. This is a hypothesis. I might kinda believe this one. The reason I don't like the proposal is I don't believe this particular hypothesis, but I believe these other ones.

对吧？当你能够更深入地将问题分解为一组假设时，事情会变得容易得多，因为你很可能会找到引起共鸣的部分，从而引导方向。如果某个假设不成立，你可以选择'不认同但执行'。但现在我们可以非常具体，能精准定位问题所在，并采取针对性措施。

Right? And so when you can start to get one level deeper into breaking it down into a set of assumptions, that makes it much easier because then you'll likely find something that you do kind of resonate with, and you might be able to then steer things like, okay. If that hypothesis doesn't, you can't I I believe and disagree and commit. But now we can be very specific. We can isolate the thing that like and and what we can also often do is, like, okay.

我反对这个提案的原因是，我认为其中某个基本假设是错误的。举个例子可能不太恰当：假设有人提议在每个街区开设柠檬水摊，而我的核心假设是——人们现在根本不喜欢柠檬水，这不是热门饮品。

The reason I didn't like this proposal is because I have this this like, I believe that this assumption is wrong. Right? So for and they come up with, like, a really stupid example. But, you know, your suggestion is, I know we have a great idea. We're gonna go and put a lemonade stand on every block.

因此我认为这个计划很愚蠢。但如果与你讨论时你说'不，问题出在我们对这个核心假设的分歧'，接下来很自然就会转向：我们能否获取些数据？有没有快速验证人们是否喜欢柠檬水的方法？也许应该先在单个市场测试，而不是直接在50个州铺开。

And my core assumption is people do not like lemonade. That's not the hot beverage right now. And so I dare therefore, I think this is a stupid plan. But if I talk to you about it and you're like, no. No.

这样我们就能聚焦到具体分歧点，并找到解决方案。比如可以先在大学校园周边测试，看看18-25岁年轻人对柠檬水的真实反应。

This is the core assumption we disagree on, likely what starts to unfold is like, well, let's just can we get some data? Can we get some information? Like, can we just is there a quicker way to validate whether people like lemonade? Perhaps we should just test it in one market before we go and open up the lemonade stands across the entire 50 states. And so what happens is we can likely get to the actual specific area and come up with something.

如果现在需要向团队说明：'我们要验证这个假设，虽然我个人持保留态度，CEO似乎很看好，但我们会通过测试来确认——在高校周边开设摊位后，18-25岁年轻人是否真的会热衷购买柠檬水？'

And then if I have to now share with my team, you know, we're gonna try this hypothesis. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I actually do think, like, I don't know for sure. And, you know, our our CEO seems to think this is but we're just gonna test it. And we're gonna do the test in a way where that's what we wanna find out is, like, do people really love like, do 18 to 25 year olds love lemonade if we put them on these neighborhood college campuses? Right?

所以这变得非常具体。每个人都会说，嗯，是的。我不太确定，但我很乐意去测试并承诺执行。

So it becomes very specific. Everyone's like, well, yeah. I'm I don't know for sure, but, like, I'm happy to go in and test that and and commit to it.

这是个非常好的建议。你还可以分层说明：这些是我同意并相信的部分，这些是我认为完全正确的地方，这部分我不太确定，但这就是我们要进行测试的原因，以及为什么这是最小版本的测试，为何这是个好主意来弄清楚。

This is such a good advice. And there's also you could layer on. Here's the things I do agree with and believe. Here's the ways that I see this as totally right. Here's the piece that I'm not so sure about, but that's why we're gonna run this test, and here's why it's the smallest version of this test and why it's a great idea just to figure it out.

我们会向他们展示，你可能不想这么说。当你给出这个答案时，非常有趣，我几乎想和你再录一集全新的节目，专门讨论管理者常见的难题，每个管理者都会遇到的挑战，这些在现场很难立刻解决。我们可以留到以后。好了，我要带大家进入本期播客的几个常设环节，偶尔出现，并非每期都有，是我们带嘉宾去的角落。首先是AI角落。

We'll show them, you probably don't want say that. As you give this answer, it's so interesting, I almost want to do a whole new episode with you later of just like common conundrums managers have, challenges that every manager runs into that are really difficult to figure out on the spot. We could save that for the future. Okay, I'm going to take us to a couple of recurring themes on this podcast, occasional recurring, not every episode, corners that we take guests to. The first is I wanna take us to AI Corner.

在AI角落，我喜欢问的问题是：你在工作或生活中发现的哪些AI应用方式既有趣又实用？

And what I like to do in AI Corner is ask what's a way that you've figured out to use AI in your work or your life that's just really interesting, really useful?

嗯，已经分享了很多关于教育和学习的内容，但也许我可以讲个更有趣的故事。我孩子们的生日。其中一个刚过，我二儿子的生日在两周后，女儿的生日在——

Well, already shared a lot about education and learning, but I'll share maybe a more fun story. So it's my kids' birthdays. One of them just passed, and my middle son's birthday is in two weeks, and my daughter's birthday is in

顺便说一句，是生日刚过，不是孩子过世了。

By the way, the birthday just passed. The kid didn't pass.

好的。没错。生日过去了。清楚了。是这样。

Okay. Yep. The birthday passed. Clear. That's right.

没错。

That's right.

是的，生日已经过了。我孩子们的生日。今年我的目标之一就是尝试为他们亲手制作些东西。所以送他们一份礼物，让我重新变回那个动手创造的自己。

Yes. The birthday passed. My kids' birthdays. And one of my goals this year was to try and build them something. So give them a present that has me going back to being the ICE and making something for them.

而AI让这个过程充满乐趣。我刚为我六岁的小儿子做了个东西，这个创意是从Eric Antineau那里偷师的。你认识Eric吗？他上过你的播客吗？

And AI makes this really fun. And so I just for my youngest son who is six years old, this is a an idea that I stole from Eric Antineau. And if if you know Eric, have you had him on your podcast?

还没有，我正试着联系他。他其实给我发过那个...叫什么来着？

I haven't. I'm trying to. He actually sent me the what is it?

对。

The Yes.

就是这个。它叫什么名字？

It's This. What is it called?

Methaphone？对。

Methaphone? Meth Yes.

Methaphone。看看这个。

Methaphone. Check this out.

是的。

Yes.

这就像不是把手机放在口袋里，而是拿着这个东西走来走去，大家都会问，这到底是什么鬼东西？

It's like instead of holding the phone in your pocket, you hold this thing, and then you walk around with it, everyone's like, what the hell is that?

没错。我也自豪地拥有一台methaphone，下一代版本还会升级附带小贴纸。

Yeah. I too am the proud owner of a methaphone and the next version upgrades with the little stickers.

但是哦，我没有

But Oh, I don't have

说到点子上了。太棒了。你真该让他加入你的团队——他是个极具创造力的人物。有一次我看见他肩膀上站着一只鹦鹉，我就问，你为什么要在肩膀上放只鹦鹉？

a point in. Great. You should definitely have him on your on your he's such a creative character. And one time I saw him with a parrot on his shoulder. And he I was like, why do you have a parrot on your shoulder?

他说，这样你可以和我的鹦鹉聊天啊，它是只会说话的鹦鹉。然后我跟鹦鹉说话，鹦鹉居然回应了我。原来他在鹦鹉体内安装了麦克风，像是做了个小手术，加装了麦克风、扬声器，并连接到CHATHBT的语音模式上，所以鹦鹉会用——我想是海盗腔调——说话。

And he's like, well, you can talk to my parrot. It's a talking parrot. And then I spoke to the parrot, and the parrot spoke back to me. And what had happened is that he had hooked up a microphone. He, like, kind of surgically went into the parrot and added, like, a microphone, a speaker, and connected it to voice mode on CHATHBT so that and and it spoke in, I think, like a pirate voice.

我当时就觉得，这主意太棒了，我六岁的儿子对浣熊特别着迷。他有一大堆浣熊玩偶。我就想，我要做一个能和他对话的浣熊。于是我用Eric Antinone的方法实现了，效果超好，特别受欢迎。

I was like, this is the best idea, and, like, my six year old son is really into raccoons. He has, like, a huge amount of raccoon stuffies. I was like, I want a raccoon that can talk to him. So I made that using the Eric Antinone method, but it it was great. It was a huge hit.

现在我二儿子的生日快到了，他超爱恶搞歌曲。他喜欢电子游戏，比如《我的世界》。但他经常用Alexa听些恶搞版歌曲，像是把贾斯汀·比伯的热门歌或《江南Style》重新填词，改成他正在玩的游戏主题。那些歌唱得简直惨不忍睹。

And now my middle son's birthday is coming up, and he is really into parody. Like, he loves video games, so Minecraft. But what he often listens to on his Alexa are these parody songs. So it'll be like Justin Bieber's hit or, like, Gundam style, but they've changed the lyrics so it becomes like a a video game parody of some video game that he's playing. And they're horribly sung.

你知道的，那些歌跑调得厉害，就是制作人随便录的。我想既然他不介意跑调，干脆给他做张游戏恶搞歌曲专辑。我在Replit上做了个应用，你只要输入原曲——比如贾斯汀·比伯的《Baby》，再贴个Spotify链接。

You know, they're, off tune. It's just like some person who produced it. And I was like, well, if he doesn't seem to mind off key c, I'm gonna create him an album of video game parody songs. And I'm gonna create, like, an so I created an app on Replit that that what and what it does is it you just give it a song. Like, you know, this is Justin Bieber's baby, and you link to a Spotify song.

我再提供些背景，比如洛克最近爱玩《王国保卫战》，我们有个关于石像鬼是‘白送金币’的内部梗。随便什么素材都行，让它生成一首个性化改编歌曲。AI就会写出贴合这个游戏的恶搞歌词。

And I give him some context. Like, oh, Locke likes playing Kingdom Rush right now. We have, like, an inside joke about, you know, the gargoyles being free money. Like, whatever it is, I just give it a bunch of and, like, write me a song that just kind of personalizes it, and it's a parody of this particular video game. And it writes me the lyrics.

它这方面做得真不错，质量很高。而且能根据音乐节奏调整歌词。我只需要录唱就能得到成品。现在正在制作整张专辑准备送他。

It's pretty good at doing this. It's, like, pretty high quality. And then and it, you know, again, it does it according to the beats of the music. And then I just sing it and record it, and then I got myself a song. So I'm creating an album of this, which I'm gonna give to him.

他不会听到这期播客的，大家别剧透啊。我打算等他生日后再公开，但现在就超期待了。

He's not gonna hear this podcast, so no one spoil it to him. I think he's gonna go publish after his birthday, but I'm very excited about this.

等等...所以是你亲自唱？

Wait. So you're gonna be the one singing

是的。那首歌呢？

Yes. The song?

是的。我以为你会用Suna或某些AI工具来实际演唱它。

Yes. I thought you were gonna use Suna or some AI thing to actually sing it.

不。我想我要自己唱，只是这一切让它变得如此简单。我只需要读一读，然后录制。再说，他并不介意——我不是一个很好的歌手，但他不介意，或者他不会因为听到跑调而反感。

No. I think I'm gonna sing it myself, and it just I was like, all of this made it so easy. Like, all I have to do is just read, like, record. And, again, he's not into I'm not a very good singer, but he's not into or he's not it doesn't turn him off to have to hear off key sing.

哇。这太美好了。这给了我很多关于可以送给我生活中孩子们的礼物的想法，而且我很喜欢AI如何让某些方面做父母变得更轻松、更愉快。这些都是很棒的例子。好吧，我要带我们去一个不同的角落，一个唱反调的角落。

Wow. That is so beautiful. This this gave me so many ideas for gifts I can give to give kids in my life, and I just love how AI is making it, I don't know, easier to be a parent in some ways, more delightful. These are awesome examples. Okay, I'm going to take us to a different corner, contrarian corner.

有什么是你相信但大多数人不同意、大多数人会反对的？

What's something that you believe that most other people don't, most other people would disagree with?

我相信每个方向都有无限可能。这让我在几乎所有别人说的话上都持相反意见。所以如果有人在Twitter上说些什么，我有时会和自己玩这个游戏：在什么情况下那实际上不是真的？我认为现实是，世界是如此——至少我的现实和我对现实的理解是，世界是无限复杂的。所以，比如，如果我的孩子说‘外面很无聊’或‘散步很无聊’或‘做某事很无聊’，我通常的回应会是：‘那是因为你没有看到那个方向的无限可能。’

I believe that there's infinity in every direction. So that makes me pretty contrary on pretty much everything that anyone says. So if someone says something like on Twitter, I sometimes play this game with myself, which is in what context would that actually not be true? And I think the reality is that the world is so or at least my reality and my understanding of the reality is that the world is just infinitely complex. And so, for example, if my kids say something like, going outside is boring or taking a walk is boring or doing something is boring, my general response will be, well, it's because you're not seeing the infinity that's in that direction.

所以，即使是像盯着空白墙壁这样非常平凡的事情，我认为你可以让它变得非常、非常有趣，因为你可以利用这个机会进入自己的思维，弄清楚如何让时间流逝，或者你可以冥想存在、冥想呼吸，或者只是为活着而感恩。比如两个人。对吧？一个人，你可以让他面对墙壁坐一个小时，他们会像我孩子一样抱怨，说‘这是有史以来最糟糕的一天’。但你可以让另一个人，比如一个和尚，他们会有一个美妙的体验。

So even, for example, something really mundane like staring at a blank wall, I think that you can make that actually deeply, deeply interesting because you can use that as an opportunity to go into your own mind and to figure out, like, how you can make time pass or you can meditate on the the existence or meditate on your breath or just be grateful for the purpose of being alive. And, like, two people. Right? One person, you can say, sit in front of a wall for an hour, and they will like my kid, they will super complain and be like, this is the worst day ever. But you can put somebody else like a monk, they'll have a wonderful experience.

所以这其实与环境或墙壁无关，而在于我们如何看待它，以及我们是否能在那方向上发现深邃、丰富且无限的事物。

And so it's not really about the environment or the wall. It's really about how we see it and whether we can find the thing that is deep and rich and infinite in that direction.

哇，这些回答真是深刻。非常...我不知道该怎么形容，很有佛教禅意，充满正念导向。我曾参加过一次静修，他们的建议是：每当你感到无聊时，就去注意周围发生的一切。比如，你此刻的座位触感如何？

Wow. These are these are some deep answers. This is very, I don't know, Buddhist, very mindfulness oriented. Did a retreat once and their advice was just, anytime you're bored, notice all the things that are going on around you. Like, what does your seat feel like right now?

空气的流动是怎样的？你此刻听到了什么？这正是你所说的——有无数值得关注的事物能让你保持兴趣。但长时间持续这种状态并加以练习确实很难。

What does the air feel like? Know, what are you hearing right now? And that's exactly what you're saying. There's infinite things to pay attention to and keep you interested. It's hard hard to actually do that for a long time and practice it.

所以这才需要练习。

That's why it's a practice.

正因如此才需要练习。我反复提醒自己这一点，因为当我经历糟糕体验或陷入某种情绪时，意识到问题可能出在我的认知上——是我尚未掌握发现其中丰富性与无限性的能力——这能帮助我找到改进方向。这种认知远比自认是环境的受害者要好得多。

That's why it's a practice. But I I I repeat that to myself because oftentimes, if I have a bad experience, I'm feeling a certain way. It helps me to realize that like, it's often probably in my head, like, it's because I haven't gained the skills to be able to see the richness and infinity in that. So I can maybe work on that. And that feels better than feeling like, oh, I'm a victim of my circumstances.

与其想着'这件事发生在我身上太糟了，而我无能为力'，不如告诉自己：'我只是暂时缺乏这项技能。我能看清本质，虽然现在还不擅长，但我可以成长进步。'后者带来的感受远比前者积极。

Like this thing happened to me and that's so awful, but now I'm powerless. I can't do anything about it. That to me is a worse feeling than the alternative, which is I just don't have the skill yet. I can recognize it for what it is. I don't have the skill yet, but I can I can grow?

我或许能做得更好。世界上一定有人遭遇相同处境却比我积极得多——难道我不想成为那样的人吗？

I can maybe get better at it. There is a person out there who could do who had the same situation as me and feels much more positively than I do, and don't I wanna be more like that person?

这真是与我们第一期节目的完美呼应，当时我们主要讨论了冒名顶替综合症以及如何克服它，还有你在这方面的经历。所以我很喜欢用这个话题来结束我们的对话。但在那之前，在我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节之前，你还有什么想补充、分享或对我们讨论过内容再次强调的吗？

It's such a beautiful circle back to our very first episode, which a lot of it was on impostor syndrome and overcoming that and your story there. So I love that that's maybe a way to close this conversation. But before we do that, and before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to mention or share or double down on that we've talked about?

说实话我只想说声谢谢。你做的这些工作让我深受启发。我们相识已久，从你最初构思这个新闻简报和播客时，我就觉得这太棒了，我相信全世界都从中获益良多。虽然你可能经常听到这样的话，但我真的非常感激。

I just want to say thank you, honestly. I'm so inspired by the work that you do. We've known each other for quite a while, and I just think from the very first idea that you had for this newsletter, for the podcast, it's been incredible, and I think the world gets so much from it. I'm sure you hear that a lot, but I am very grateful.

真的很感谢你这么说。每次我们聊天我都会提到，没有你朱莉，这一切都不可能实现。我正是受到你长期经营的《The Looking Glass》简报的启发——我的想法是如果把这个模式应用到产品领域会怎样？和你一样，我也是从Medium起步，然后转到Substack，后来就想为什么不尝试收费呢？

Well, really appreciate that. And I say this every time we do a chat is just this wouldn't have been possible without you, Julie. I was inspired by your longtime newsletter, The Looking Glass. That's essentially my my idea was what if I do this for product? And I started on Medium just like you did, and then I moved to Substack, and then it's like what if I charge for this?

结果这个模式成功了，接着我又想为什么不试试播客呢？这也成功了，但这一切都源于你的创意。所以谢谢你，朱莉。

And then that worked, and then I'm like what if I do a podcast? And then that worked, but it all began with your concept. So thank you, Julie.

是啊。而且你始终保持着那份善意与好奇心在做这些事，这正是我一直欣赏的。

Yeah. And I think you do it with so much kindness and curiosity, as you always have, so I love that.

这就是真实的我。好了，现在我们要进入激动人心的快问快答环节了。我有五个问题要问你，准备好了吗？

That's just who I am. Well, with that, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

准备好了。

I'm ready.

你经常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

第一本是《禅与摩托车维修艺术》。我超级爱这本书。文笔优美，思想深邃。我关于品质的整个哲学体系——甚至包括我们讨论的所有关于变革的内容——很大程度上都源自这本书的理念。

The first is Zen and the Art of Motor Motorcycle Maintenance. I absolutely love that book. It's beautifully written. It's so deep. My whole philosophy around quality is is beautifully it it really comes a lot of it comes from that book, the idea and even all the stuff that we talked about, change.

站在变革前沿和动态品质的巅峰意味着什么？他在书中的阐述既精妙又充满大师风范。虽然是老经典，但我每隔几年都会重读。第二本是《有意识的商业》，这是我最喜欢的管理类书籍。

What does it mean to be at that that forefront of change and dynamic quality? I think he just talks about so beautifully and so masterfully in that book. Old classic, but I try to reread it every few years or so. Second is Conscious Business. It is my favorite management book.

这本书有点冷门黑马的意思，因为我实际推荐它的次数远超过推荐我自己的书。

It's a little bit of a sleeper hit because I actually end up recommending this one far more than my own book.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

我是在写完自己那本书后才读到这本的，我常对人说，如果早读到它，可能就不会写自己的书了——因为会觉得《有意识的商业》已经如此完美地诠释了这些理念。书中关于双赢思维、做主动者而非受害者、如何将工作与个人价值观及人生目标相融合的论述，与我许多观点深度共鸣。这本书不仅思想深刻，实操性也很强，包含大量精彩案例。

I read this one after I wrote my book, and I always tell people that if I read it before, I'm not sure I would have written my book because I would have been like, conscious business is really the book that will that that that really, really so much resonates. And I think what and all of the many of the things I talked about, this idea of win win, the idea of, like, being a player, not a victim, And how to think about work, not just it's a job, it's but, like, how do you really think about aligning it with your own personal values and what you wanna do in the world? I think that this book really speaks to that so beautifully. It is also very tactical. It's got a lot of really wonderful examples.

我得提醒大家它的封面不太吸引人。如果以貌取书的话，这个标题'有意识的商业'听起来很企业范儿，第一章也偏技术流。但只要你坚持读到第二章，从足球队的案例开始，就会发现这绝对是最棒的管理学著作。

I will tell people the cover isn't very attractive. And I think that if you judge a book by its cover, like, this seems very corporate y. The title also seems like kind of like what conscious business? And the first chapter is a little bit more technical. But if you just can't get past it and get into chapter two and you start, you know, with examples of the soccer team and what, it's just, like, the best management book.

这是个很好的建议，能帮助人们在遇到瓶颈时坚持下去。你知道，就像，好吧。好吧。我会继续坚持的。

That is good good advice to get people over the hump when they look for it. You know, like, okay. Okay. I'm gonna stick with it.

是的。然后第三本书。我非常喜欢贝基博士写的《内在美好》，这是一本育儿书籍，而且非常受欢迎。

Yes. And okay. Third book. I love the the book Good Inside by doctor Becky. It's a parenting book, and it's a very wildly popular parenting book.

所以我向所有父母强烈推荐这本书。但我也认为它对于思考人际关系是一本很棒的书。育儿是什么？那就像是一种非常深刻且紧密的人际关系和互动。我在育儿书籍中读到的许多内容，包括贝基博士的《内在美好》，

So I really recommend it to all parents. But I also think it's just a wonderful book for thinking about relationships. Whose parenting is that? It's like a very, very deep and intense relationship and interaction that you have with another human being. And there's so many things that I read in parenting books, including Good Inside by Doctor.

我觉得这些内容完全可以适用于管理或团队领导力的书籍。

Becky that I think like are could just as well been like a management or a team leadership book.

我在考虑邀请贝基博士来参加播客。我觉得基于这个原因可能会有很多协同效应。她用了‘坚韧’这个词，这可能是启发你的——哦，

I am thinking about trying to ask Doctor. Becky to come on podcast. I feel like there could be a lot of synergy exactly for that reason. And she uses this term sturdy, which you which is inspired maybe your Oh,

我可能理解这个词。我是说，她经常谈论坚韧，这个概念立刻就在这里生根发芽了。

I probably got it. I I mean, I think she talks a lot about sturdiness and that just incepted right in right in here.

是的。没错。她的核心理念就是成为一个坚韧的父母。我想象中，是既坚强又灵活的。是的。

Yes. Yeah. Her whole thing is creating being a sturdy parent. Strong but flexible, I imagine. Yeah.

我爱她，也爱她的作品。我在TikTok上看她所有的视频。还有Emily Oster。好的，下一个问题。

I love I love her, and I love her stuff. I watch all her videos on TikTok. And Emily Oster. Okay. Next question.

你最近有喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

Is there a movie or TV show you've recently enjoyed?

我最近没看什么。没法给你好答案。今年唯一看的就是重看了《爱乐之城》，我确实很喜欢这部。

I have not watched anything. I have no good answer for you. I think the only thing I watched this year was a rewatch of La La Land, which I do truly love.

真让人愉快。好的。你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的产品？

So delightful. Okay. Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love?

没什么太新的东西。比如我喜欢麦片，喜欢Replit。我用过所有编程应用。目前Cursor对我来说很重要。

I don't think there's anything too new. Like, I love granola. I love Replit. I've used all of the different coding apps. Cursor is is big on me for for now.

我刚买了Matic机器人。目前为止体验很棒，虽然还没长期使用，但安装过程、运作方式，还有它能贴小贴纸变成狗或猫的设计，都是很棒的体验。

I just got a Matic robot. I think that's been really delightful so far, at least the setup I haven't used it, like, a long long term, but it's the setup, the way that it worked, the the the fact that it had little stickers and you could make it into a dog or a cat was, like, a wonderful experience.

Thematic机器人会附上链接。我也是它的超级粉丝。我不是投资者。它本质上是Waymo和Roomba的结合体。不了解的人可以理解为这是由AI视觉团队打造的精密扫地机器人。

Thematic robot will link to it. I am also a huge fan. I'm not an investor. That's essentially Waymo meets Roomba. For folks that don't know anything about it, it's like a very sophisticated robot vacuum built by, like, AI vision people.

哦，我刚又想到一个。对，就是Limbitless吊坠。先声明一下，我是Limbitless的小股东。但我喜欢它的原因是它很自然。

Oh, I just thought of one more as well. Yeah. The Limbitless pendant. So disclaimer, I am an a small investor in Limbitless. But what I love about it is that it's okay.

这是个吊坠，戴着它就能记录周围发生的一切。之后它会汇总信息并给你反馈。我通常不戴出门，因为怕别人觉得我在录音会尴尬，一般都会先征得同意。

It's a pendant. You wear it, and it just records everything that's going on. And later, it summarizes things, and it gives you feedback. And I don't usually wear it out because I find that maybe other people feel, like, awkward that I'm, like, recording everything. I usually try and get people's permission.

但我在家陪孩子时会戴，这个吊坠最棒的功能就是给我育儿方面的反馈。

But I do wear it at home when I'm with my kids, and one of the best things that the pendant does is it gives me feedback on parenting.

什么？是自动反馈还是需要导入ChatGPT？

What? Like, automatically or use throw it into ChatGPT?

不用。它会自动通过APP通知我，或者我主动查看时也能获取反馈。本质上它就像生活里的格兰诺拉麦片——记录一切、汇总分析后给出建议。比如它会说：

No. It will it automatically like, if there's an app, and it it will sometimes notify me. Or if I check it, it'll or I can also engage with, like, ask it. But what it does is essentially it's like granola, but, like, for your life in in terms of capturing everything, summarizing it, and then giving you tips and feedback. And it said things like, hey.

「上次讨论游戏时你多次打断孩子，下次试着让他们把话说完，多倾听。」

There was that time you were talking about the game, and you cut your kid off a lot. And maybe next time, think about letting them speak fully and listening better.

这功能是APP自带的？

The app itself natively does that?

是啊。

Yeah.

我之前不知道这个功能，因为我有一个但最近用得不多。这太不可思议了。我在想，如果你和伴侣交谈时，它是不是还能提供恋爱建议。

I did not know that because I have one. I haven't used it much recently. That is incredible. Yeah. I wonder if it gives you relationship advice too if you're talking to your partner.

我好奇它究竟是怎么知道的。

I wonder how you even knows.

没错。总之它...它确实在推理方面做得相当好，你知道的，或者说对人类行为也是。但对我来说，这有点大开眼界。

Yeah. It's so I anyways, it was it was it was did a pretty good job of inferring, you know, that or I I guess a person too, but it was it was, like, kinda eye opening for me.

太神奇了。最近我们姐妹播客《How I AI》有一期节目，讲到有人戴着这个设备参加高管会议，能自动将会议记录里的需求转化为原型，销售团队马上就能展示给客户看意向。这怎么样？

Incredible. Something so there's a recent episode of the our How I AI podcast, our sister podcast, where somebody wears that in their meetings with COs with their CO, and automatically turns what they're asking for into a prototype from the meeting notes, and then sales teams can start showing it to people to see if they're interested. How about that?

太棒了。简直酷毙了。

That's awesome. That is super cool.

天啊。

Holy moly.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们甚至不知道发生了什么？好吧，我继续。你有没有一句特别喜欢的人生格言，会反复对自己说或分享给别人？

We don't even what is even happening? Okay. I'll keep going. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself repeating to yourself, sharing with others?

我喜欢'付诸行动'这句话。它提醒我们，归根结底，我们可以做很多事情，可以有很多行动。可能还有另一句我很喜欢的——我想起Facebook曾经有张海报写着：'别把行动误当作进步'。

I like make it happen. Just a reminder that at the end of the day, we can do a lot of we can have a lot of motion. Maybe this is another one that I really like. I think about this poster. It used to be a poster at Facebook that says, don't mistake motion for progress.

所以核心理念就像是'成为你想在世界上看到的改变'，我想其他说法也都是这个意思——比如，你知道，我能做事，我们都能做事。我们拥有越来越好的工具去实现目标。付诸行动。

So there's this idea of, like, be the change we wanna be in the world, I guess, is all other ways of saying the same thing, which is, like, you know, I'm I can do things. Like, we can all do things. We're have better and better tools to go out there and make things happen. Make it happen.

就像推特上那个流行梗说的'你可以直接去做事'。最后一个问题，我喜欢问那些深耕AI领域的人：考虑到AI将成为孩子们生活的重要部分，你会教孩子什么或鼓励他们学习什么？

Like the common meme on Twitter, you can just do things. Yes. Final question. I like to ask this question of folks that are really deep in AI and been working with AI and kinda getting a sense of where things are going. Is there something that you teach your kids or teaching your kids, think about encouraging them to learn, knowing that AI is gonna be a big part of their life?