人工智能如何重塑产品角色 | Oji与Ezinne Udezue

2024年最让我恼火的是，大多数人都在说AI已经到来，产品经理岗位即将消失。还有人说既然AI来了，我们可以用它处理那些不喜欢的工作。

It really irked me when in 2024, most people were saying AI is here and now the PM job is gone. There were others who were saying AI is here, so now we can do the things we don't like to do with AI.

你认为成功企业最普遍的共同点是什么？

What do you find is most common across the companies that are succeeding?

那些明白AI不是可以随意涂抹在产品上的魔法涂料的公司。问题始终还是那些问题。

Companies that recognize that AI is not this magic thing that you're gonna slather on to your product. The problems are still the problem.

我认为另一个非常重要的因素是深度参与技术实践。

Something else that I think is also really important is getting super hands on with the tech.

过去一年我写的代码比过去十年还多，因为现在代码本质上就是架构和英语。我会选择涉及多个需要学习领域的项目，比如目前正热衷的智能家居自动化——给房子装上眼睛和耳朵。最酷的是我设计了一个超级传感器原型。

I've written more code in the last one year than I have in the last ten years because code is now essentially architecture and English. I'll pick a project that touches a lot of the things that I need to learn. One of the passion projects I have is to automate my house. The idea is that I give the house eyes and ears. The coolest thing is I've specked out a super sensor.

它能识别人脸、接收声音、感知温湿度，而且我正在亲手制作这个硬件。

It will see people, hear them. It will sense humidity and temperature, and I'm building the hardware myself.

今天我的嘉宾是Aji和Ezine Udeswe夫妇。他们既是生活伴侣，也是拥有超50年综合经验的产品领袖，最近出版了令我赞叹的新书《打造火箭飞船：高增长企业的产品管理》，浓缩了他们整个职业生涯的重要心得。Aji曾任Calendly和Typeform首席产品官，领导过Twitter、Atlassian和微软的产品团队；Ezinay曾任WP Engine首席产品官及Procore产品副总裁。

Today, my guests are Aji and Ezine Udeswe. They are married, both longtime product leaders with over fifty years of combined product experience. They're also the authors of a new book that I love called Building Rocket Ships, product management for high growth companies, which is a synthesis of their biggest product lessons over the course of their entire career. Ajei was chief product officer at Calendly and Typeform and led product teams at Twitter, Atlassian, and Microsoft. Ezinay was CPO at WP Engine and VP of product at Procore.

我们探讨了产品管理角色的变与不变，AI带来的PM与工程师配比变化，未来五年PM最关键的五大技能，以及他们职业生涯中最重要的经验教训。喜欢本期节目请记得在播客平台或YouTube订阅，这对我们帮助巨大。

We chat about what is changing in the role of product management. Also, what is staying the same? We also get into the shift of PM to end ratios that AI is introducing, the five skills becoming most important in being a successful PM over the coming years, and the single biggest lesson that each of them have learned over the course of their careers. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously.

年度订阅我的通讯可免费获得15款卓越产品年费，包括Lovable、Replid、Bolt、n eight n、Linear、Superhuman、Descript等。访问lenny'snewsletter.com点击product pass。现在有请Aji和Ezine Odeswe。本期由Mercury赞助——作为多年用户，我已无法想象换其他银行。

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products, including Lovable, Replid, Bolt, n eight n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, WhisperFlow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, Chat PRD, and Mobin. Head over to lenny'snewsletter.com and click product pass. With that, I bring you Aji and Ezine Odeswe. This episode is brought to you by Mercury. I've been banking with Mercury for years, and honestly, I can't imagine banking any other way at this point.

从大通银行转来后体验天壤之别：电汇、支出追踪、团队资金权限管理极其便捷。当传统银行应用笨拙难用时，Mercury精心设计了直观简洁的体验，整合信用卡、发票、账单支付、报销和融资等功能。无论你是需要支付承包商并让闲置资金增值的科技初创，还是需要开发票的广告公司，或是需优化现金流的电商品牌，Mercury都能定制化助力业务腾飞。

I switched from Chase and holy moly, what a difference. Sending wires, tracking spend, giving people on my team access to move money around so freaking easy. Where most traditional banking websites and apps are clunky and hard to use, Mercury is meticulously designed to be an intuitive and simple experience. And Mercury brings all the ways that you use money into a single product, including credit cards, invoicing, bill pay, reimbursements for your teammates, and capital. Whether you're a funded tech startup looking for ways to pay contractors and earn yield on your idle cash, or an agency that needs to invoice customers and keep them current, or an e commerce brand that needs to stay on top of cash flow and excess capital, Mercury can be tailored to help your business perform at its highest level.

看看20多万企业家为何钟爱Mercury。访问mercury.com，十分钟即可在线申请。Mercury是金融科技公司而非银行，银行服务由Mercury的FDIC承保合作银行提供。详情请查看节目备注。我和播客嘉宾们热衷探讨工艺、品味、能动性以及产品市场契合度。

See what over 200,000 entrepreneurs love about Mercury. Visit mercury.com to apply online in ten minutes. Mercury is a fintech, not a bank, banking services provided through Mercury's FDIC insured partner banks. For more details, check out the show notes. My podcast guests and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.

知道我们不爱聊什么吗？SOC2认证。这正是Vanta的用武之地。Vanta通过行业领先的AI、自动化和持续监控，帮助各规模企业快速达标并保持合规。无论您是初创公司首次应对SOC2或ISO27001，还是管理供应商风险的大企业，Vanta信任管理平台都能让流程更快捷、轻松且可扩展。

You know what we don't love talking about? SOC two. That's where Vanta comes in. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring. Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC two or ISO twenty seven zero zero one or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.

Vanta还能助您五倍速完成安全问卷，加速赢得大额交易。结果如何？IDC最新研究显示，Vanta客户年均节省超50万美元，效率提升三倍。建立信任非选择题，Vanta让它自动化实现。

Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner. The result? According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic.

登录vanta.com/lenny立享1000美元优惠。Ajei和Ezine，非常感谢二位做客，欢迎来到播客节目。

Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny. Ajei and Ezine, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

谢谢邀请，Lenny。

Thank you for having us, Lenny.

这是我的荣幸。你们是罕见的夫妻档嘉宾，都是资深产品负责人，两人在产品领域经验合计超五十年。

It's absolutely my pleasure. You guys are a rare guest duo. You two are married. You're both longtime product leaders. You've been in product combined for over fifty years.

你们长期深耕产品领域的妙处在于，既见证了PM角色和产品构建方式的变迁，也洞察到那些永恒不变的要素。我先抛个问题给Ezine：你认为产品经理日常工作最大的变化是什么？又有哪些始终未变？

The cool thing about the fact that you guys have been in product for so long is that you've seen a lot of change in the role of a PM and the role of building products. You've also seen what doesn't change. And so let me actually start here and I'll throw this to Ezine. What are you seeing changing most in the role and day to day job of a product manager? And what are you seeing staying the same?

宏观来看，PM的核心价值始终未变——既要降低产品交付风险，又要最大化业务投资价值。但战术层面，可喜的是PM们正获得更多解放，从而能真正深入洞察客户需求。现在工程团队会要求你验证对客户的认知直觉。

At a high level, the core value that a PM has to deliver hasn't changed. It really is de risking the product delivery process while also really trying to maximise the value the business gets from these investments. But tactically, I think that the good thing is that we're finding out that PMs are freed up more. And as a result, can actually invest more in developing true insights about their customer. So you're finding out your engineering leaders, engineering team is they're asking you to really confirm your insight and your instinct about the customer.

第二点是协调方式需要革新。过去是协调人员开会沟通，如今要统筹软件系统、反馈闭环、LLN技术多触点等动态要素，确保这些组件能支持软件内部的持续学习。静态软件的概念已过时，现代软件如同生命体，必须维护其'呼吸'机制。

The second thing I would say is that there's a need to orchestrate a little differently. So in the past, was around people orchestrating people, getting into the room, etcetera. But now there are many moving pieces. There's the software. There are also the feedback loops, the LLNs that are the multiple touch points that you have in technology, and showing that those are also being built in a way that allows for true learning within your software.

另外两个关键点：数据素养——理解产品从哪些数据中学习、数据流向及用途；以及持续验证产品学习机制的有效性。

So that idea of working static software isn't true anymore. It's almost like living, breathing software and ensuring that the things that allow it to breathe actually occur. Other piece, two other pieces, data literacy, an understanding of what it is that your product is learning from. Where's the data going? And how is it being used?

如何组织这些数据以便未来能用于洞察产品使用和客户行为。最后我想说的是，要在产品中设置正确的防护措施，确保它持续发挥应有作用。我们之前讨论过，我对AI伦理等问题有一整套看法。我认为作为产品人，我们肩负责任。现在我看到产品经理们提出的问题，是我们在构建社交媒体时未曾见他们问过的。

How is it being organized so that it could be leveraged for future insight about your product use and customer use. And then the last I would say is just creating the right guardrails within your product to ensure that it actually continues to do what it needs to do. You know, we spoke earlier and I have a whole thing about ethics of AI, etcetera. And I think that we have a responsibility as product folk people. And I'm seeing PMs ask the questions that we didn't get to see them ask when we were building social media.

这些就是我想强调的重点。

Those are the kind of things I would say.

我非常想再深入探讨这个话题。你刚才提到的内容与最近一位嘉宾的观点高度契合——微软Organ AI的副总裁Asha Sharma提出了'产品即有机体'的概念，认为产品正从'作为成品交付的产物'转变为'通过数据代谢持续进化的生命体'。

I would definitely want to come back to that topic. There's something you just talked about that connects so deeply with something a recent guest talked about. Asha Sharma, she's Chief Vice President of Microsoft Organ AI, and she had this concept that products are evolving from product as artifact, where it's this done thing you ship, to a product as organism that continues to evolve based on data that it's feeding in this metabolism of data.

在我们的书里你会看到关于系统的论述。我对'系统是什么'这个概念有着与生俱来的热情，它正是指这种活生生的、与其他事物交互的存在。所以没错，完全赞同。

In our book, you will see we talk about systems. And I have this innate passion around the idea of what a system is. And it has to do with that living, breathing and interaction with other things. So yes, yes, yes, and yes.

我想听听Ajee的看法。你提到的第一点我很认同——现在产品经理更多时间花在漏斗顶端，即产品开发生命周期初期，验证客户数据洞察并决策构建内容。最近有讨论说PM可能成为团队瓶颈，因为工程师效率大幅提升，而PM还停留在写文档阶段。你如何看待这种因AI加速其他职能而导致的PM角色比例变化？

Let me throw over to Ajee. This first point you made, I love this idea that PMs, there's more time spent almost at kind of the top of the funnel, the top of the product development life cycle, confirming insights from customer data, deciding what to build. There's talk recently of just PMs are almost becoming the bottleneck for teams because engineers are moving so much faster and PMs are the same, just like sitting, maybe docs are easier to write. What do see there? What do you think about just I don't know, this ratio shift potentially for PMs almost become a bottleneck with AI accelerating other functions?

过去二十年我们遵循固定工作配比：PM、开发、市场各环节耗时固定。但现在这个契约正在瓦解——构建流程的解决方案阶段正在极速加速。某家合作公司告诉我们，他们在接到需求电话后四小时内就能做出原型。那么PM该做什么？这种情况下PM需要兼具开发能力。

For the last twenty years, we've had very fixed ratios in terms of how work gets done. PM takes this amount of time, Developers takes this amount of time. Go to market takes this amount of time. And I think that contract is basically exploding because the build process, you know, sort of the the the close solution process of the build process is accelerating so fast. And so a company we worked with told us that, you know, they're sort of like a build contract build company.

我们认为PM做三件事：思考客户需要且有利可图的需求（定义精准问题），支持解决方案构建，以及支持上市推广（这环节我们做得不够）。现在中间环节能力突飞猛进，我们的支持方式必须改变。传统PRD文档和静态客户需求调研方式已经跟不上如今的高速迭代周期。

They said they will get off the phone from a pitch, and in four hours, they would have a prototype. And so the question is, like, what is a PM doing? This person listening to that is half PM, half developer in order to be able to produce that. And so what we're seeing is that the way you know, PMs do three things. We think about what the customers want that is profitable.

PM需要适应这种变化，这意味着掌握新工具和新技能。我认为这是当前压力最大的地方。但正如Izina所说，如果调整得当，PM可以把更多精力放在需求定义这个高价值环节——这里蕴藏着巨大机会。我们绝不希望PM成为瓶颈被人诟病。

So working on sharp problems and defining sharp problems and what's in the customer's mind that makes it sharp. We support the solutioning and the build of it, and then we don't do this enough, but we need to support the go to market of it. And so what's happening is that this middle thing is becoming more capable and much faster. And so the way we support it, it has to change. PRD writing is insufficient at the moment.

PM需要进化工作方式。现在需求调研的静态提问方式必须提速，要跟上快速迭代的节奏。这要求PM掌握新的工具技能组合，当前这方面压力最大。

You know, sort of like the static way we ask questions about what's in the customer's minds is like, that stuff needs to be, like, faster. The cycle time is so fast now. And so PMs need to adapt. And that means new tool sets, new skill sets, and so on and so forth. I think that's where the most pressure is.

但与此同时，就像Izina说的，如果PM能很好适应这种变化，就能把更多时间投入高价值的需求定义环节。这里存在巨大机会。我们真正希望的是PM不要成为阻碍，不必担心被指责为瓶颈。

But at the same time, like Izina said, PMs can take some of the if they adapt to this really well, they can spend a lot more time up here. Right? And that's where there's a lot of opportunity. And, you know, the thing that we want PMs to do is not be the crouch, not worry about people saying, oh, you're the bottleneck. No.

首先不要成为瓶颈，同时由于你洞察全局，要在那些你传统上投入过时间的地方发现其他价值所在。

Don't be the bottleneck first of all, but also since you see everything, at value in other places where traditionally you ever spent time.

我想深入探讨这个尖锐问题。这是我最喜欢的Aji梗图。上次你参加播客时我们简单聊过。我认为这是个非常实用的概念，所以想趁讨论时确保大家理解。请解释什么是尖锐问题及其重要性。

I wanna pull on this sharp problem thread. This is my favorite Aji meme. We talked about this a bit in your when you visited the podcast last. I think it's such a useful concept, so I just wanna make sure people learn this while we're talking about it. Talk about what a sharp problem is and why that's important.

从多次创业失败中学到的是：人们常以为创业就是先做个产品，不行就转型等等。但在高科技和客户需求领域，许多捷径意味着转型不该像醉酒般随意。看比尔·盖茨、Facebook这些成功案例——他们甚至没转型，因为最初想法就是个尖锐问题。

One of the things I learned from failing a lot at building companies is that sometimes, you know, the way that y c o, the people pitch it is that, you know, you build something, and if it doesn't work, you pivot, da da da, you know, stuff like that. But it turns out that in the world of high technology and the world of figuring out what customers need, there are many shortcuts that mean that pivoting isn't just like a habit, something you walk around drunkenly doing. Right? A lot of the most successful people, you know, Bill Gates, Facebook, so they didn't even pivot. They had an idea, but it turned out that the idea was a sharp problem.

避免醉汉式创业的方法是选择古老需求。盈利之道在于用新技术重构旧需求——这才是关键。用尖锐问题框架来说：人们哪些痛点亟待解决？哪些难题若提升3-5倍甚至10倍效率，或降低成本90%，会让他们立刻买单？

So, like, the way to avoid drunken startup building is pick things that are old. The the the the core needs, and and the way you profit is when you reimagine old needs in new technological ways, and that's important. Now let's frame it in the sharp problem. What do people feel they need help with? What is still difficult to the point that if you improve it three to five times, maybe 10 x, or you take cost out of it, like 10 x the cost, right, one tenth, they'll be like, this is so compelling.

这就是大多数创业者真正该专注的。我们多年讨论的延伸框架比如独角兽模型——针对B2B领域时，如何用象限分析问题频率（高频往往意味着巨大痛点），具体可参阅Substack文章。

You should take my money now. And that's what most founders should really, really focus on if they can. There's extended stuff we've talked about over the years, like the unicorn framework, which is like, if you're building for b two b specifically, how do you draw a quadrant around a problem so you know if it's highly frequent? Because frequency also means a lot of pain and figure it out. But that's something people can read on the sub stack.

是的，上次对话讨论过这个，我会推荐大家回顾。那么基于这种'醉汉寻路'式的产品探索，你提出了'造船厂'概念——这是对未来产品开发模式的思考，也是应对当下混沌世界的运作范式。

Yeah. And we talked about that in our last chat, so I'll point people to that. Okay. So building on this idea of being a drunken walk of figuring out what to build, you have this concept of the shipyard. This is kind of a way to think about how to think about what product development might look like going forward and just a model for how to work in this chaotic world that we're in.

请具体阐述这个建议的实践形态。

Talk about what that looks like in the advice here.

要归功于在Atlassian时Jeff Redfer首次提出这个概念（他现在是风投）。我将其发展到了新高度——造船厂象征着受控的混沌。

I'm gonna give some credit. When I was Atlassian, the first time I encountered the idea was with Jeff Redfer. He's now, like, a VC, and he talked about it. But, you know, I've taken the idea because I loved it to maybe a whole different level, maybe a sense of clarity. A shipyard is to evoke controlled chaos.

想象长滩港繁忙的造船厂：重型机械穿梭，中马货运集装箱装卸。这种混沌表象下是精密协作与高超技艺，看似布朗运动实则是精心编排的进程。

If you go to a shipyard at peak, you know, Long Beach or whatever it is, there's so much going on. And, like, big heavy machinery moving around, trucks and containers from China, from Malaysia jumping around. But this chaos, underline it, is careful communication, high skill. Right? And so what looks like, you know, you know, Brownian motion is actually orchestrated progress.

作为许多国家GDP的核心，造船厂是贸易枢纽。因此这个概念要唤起的就是'受控混沌'。具体到团队：六人配置，含产品经理和工程师。

And, you know, these are these shipyards are the center of GDP for a lot of nations because this is where trade happens. So this is what it's supposed to evoke is controlled chaos. And so what a shipyard team looks like is a six person team. It is PM. It is engineering.

这是设计。这是用户研究。这是数据、机器学习、AI专业知识、AIPM，随便你怎么称呼。这是产品营销的集中体现，是问题解决。要知道，在这个AI时代，站会的概念甚至都不太说得通了。

It is design. It is user research. It's data, ML, AI expertise, AIPMs, whatever you call it. It is product marketing in a pod, problem solving. You know, in this especially in AI age, the idea of stand ups isn't really even make as much sense.

对吧？这些人应该，你知道的，与我沟通协作来解决问题，因为我觉得他们在处理新问题。所以我认为这就是核心造船厂团队的意义。然后还有这些触须延伸到，我们称之为销售人员、客户销售人员的神经末梢——就像是皮肤。把造船厂团队想象成大脑，而这些就是皮肤。

Right? These people should be, you know, communicating and collaborating our me, basically, to solve the problem because, I feel like they're working on new problems. So I think that's what the core shipyard team means. And then there are these tendrils to you know, we call salespeople, customer salespeople the the nervous It's on the skin. Like, think about the shipyard team as the brain, but this is the skin.

这就是你感知客户的方式。举个具体例子：在Calendly发布任何产品前，我都会与支持经理进行设计评审。明白吗？支持经理必须参与，因为无论设计人员和工程人员多么用心，我们总会忽略问题——那些功能点。

This is how you feel customers. And so here's a concrete example. Before I shipped anything at Calendly, I did the design review with a a support manager. Right? A support manager had to be in the room because the design people and engineering people, as much as we cared, we will shift problems all the time, you know, feature that.

但当支持经理一看就说'这行不通，我已经处理过上万次类似咨询'时，这种反馈极其宝贵。所以造船厂团队必须保持与客户团队的连接触须，这非常重要。

When a support manager looks at it and is like, that's not gonna work. I've had 10 a thousand conversations, and it was so useful. And so having the Shipyard team have the tendrils of connection to customer teams was so important.

所以我听到的核心意思是：拥抱混乱。事情只会越来越诡异。有个人——忘了是谁，可能是OpenAI的CPO说过：'只会越来越奇怪，现在已经是世界最正常的时刻了'。

So what I'm hearing is essentially embrace chaos. Things are gonna get only weirder. There's something I forget who. Maybe the CPO at OpenAI said just like, it's only gonna get weirder. This is the least this is the most normal the world will be.

确实会这样。是的。而且

It's gonna be. Yep. And

这很重要，因为如果世界变得诡异，而你想理解它，就需要那些高度积极、具备正确技能组合的人，在变化发生时持续重构认知。

and and that's important because if the world is weird and you wanna make sense of it, you need people who are highly motivated, have the right skill sets to continuously create it as it moves, as it gets weird.

Ajay，你记得Lenny问过造船厂由多少人组成吗？他说是六人团队。我知道这会引发疑问，人们肯定会说：等等，真的吗？

Ajay, you said remember Lenny asked how many you know, what what how what is what is Shipyard comprised of? He said six people person team. I know that's gonna come up, people are gonna go, sorry. Really?

六个...等等，是六人能力团队。重点不在具体人数，而是工程能力——需要多少人就配置多少人。

How Six wait. Six Person capability team. Okay. It's not a personal thing. It is it's engineering how however many you need.

重申一次，关键在于能力配置。需要产品经理、设计师，我优化的是能力组合。明白吗？

Again, it's all about admission. It's PM. It's design. It's the capabilities I'm I'm optimizing for. Right?

这关乎数据与机器学习，关乎产品营销，也关乎用户研究。如果产品经理无法胜任，你就需要这些能力。无论是通过Matrix平台以兼职形式加入EPD团队，还是因开发需求配备十人团队——这就是你所需的配置。

It's it's data and ML. It's product marketing, and it's a user research. If PMs can't do it. You need the capabilities. And whether it's a fractional person within Matrix into that EPD team or it's 10 people because of developers, that's what you need.

没错。我听到的核心是角色界限将更模糊——产品经理需兼顾设计，工程师需承担更多产品工作，所有人都需提升数据技能。对我而言有两个启示：其一是学会适应这个混沌的世界。

Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is roles will become blurrier, that PMs need to do more design, engineers need to do more PM ing, people need more data skills. To me, are the two takeaways. It's just learn to be more comfortable with chaotic world.

每周AI领域都在剧变，总有人惊呼'这改变了一切，重做路线图吧'。其二则是岗位分工将弱化，人们需要掌握多重技能随时补位。确实如此。

Just AI every week there's like, oh, this is changing everything. Rethink the roadmap. And then also the roles will be less divided. People will need to learn to do many roles and chip in. Yes.

说得好。接着这个话题，Ezinne，如今你招聘产品经理或物色产品领导者时，是否越来越注重某些特质？你是否认为在AI颠覆一切的时代，这些特质对成功愈发重要？

Awesome. Building on that, Ezinne, when you hire PMs these days, when you're looking for product leaders, do you is there something you're looking for more and more because you believe this will be more important to be successful in a world where AI is just changing everything?

我认为Ajay开场说'这是第一天'时就奠定了基调。在这个时代思考产品构建，必须牢记这点。接下来我会从态度价值观和行为准则，以及技能层面谈谈我的筛选标准。目前我在洛杉矶协助某公司设计产品经理培训课程并参与招聘，我们聚焦的关键特质首推好奇心。

I think Ajay started, he laid the foundation when he said it's day one. And when you're working and thinking about building product in this type of era or space, it's important that you remember that. So I'm going to talk about what it is that I typically will look for from an attitudes, values and behaviors point of view, as well as a skills point of view. I'm currently working with a firm in LA and I'm building curriculum for their PMs as well as helping them recruit. The things that we've honed in on are curiosity.

虽然老生常谈，但如今这点更为关键：这个人是否足够谦逊好奇，能坦然承认无知并保持学习者心态？是否真正具备成长型思维，愿意接受他人指导——无论其资历多深？这种谦逊与好奇的融合至关重要。第二点我称之为'主观能动性'——能发现机遇却不寻求他人许可，而是主动把握。

And I know it's been said over and over again, but it matters more now. It is, is this person humble and curious enough to admit they don't know and are willing to start as a learner? Do they truly have a growth mindset where they are Okay being taught by someone else, no matter how senior they have become, that is very important, that humility and curiosity mixed together. The second part is what I'd call agency. Being able to see opportunity and not ask others for permission to go execute on that opportunity, but actually take the opportunity themselves.

还有种常见表述...一时想不起那个词...

Have a strong there's another word most people use for this. It's not coming to me. Just

抓住牛角

take the bull

不，是另一种行为特征...高能动性，能像所有者般主动推进。'主人翁意识'！就是这个词。但主人翁意识重在'运营'能力...

by no, the there's another characteristic of behavior. But high agency, being able to just move forward and act like an owner. Ownership, that's the word. High ownership. But I think ownership is seeing that you can run.

而能动性更强调掌控——你应是恒温器而非温度计。温度计只测量室温，恒温器却能改变室温。我寻找的就是这类人。最让我恼火的是2024年很多人宣称'AI来了，产品经理该失业了'，我需要的正是能从实力地位出发破局的人才。

But I think agency assumes that you control you're more of a thermostat than a thermometer. And that means that, hey, the thermometer is always measuring the temperature of the room, while a thermostat will change the temperature of the room. So I'm looking for that in people. And I want people who can move from a position of strength. It really irked me when in 2024, most people were saying AI is here and now the PM job is gone.

还有人说AI已经到来，所以现在我们可以用AI处理不喜欢做的事，然后专注于我们需要做的事。那些这样说话的人正是我想招进团队的类型。从技能角度看，显然需要理解数据，对吧？至少要懂数据是如何组织的？在这个AI新世界中如何利用数据？

And there were others who were saying AI is here, so now we can do the things we don't like to do with AI and then go and focus on the things that we need to do. So people who spoke that way are the types of people I want on my team. From a skills perspective, obviously, an understanding of data, right? Just high level of how is it organized? How is it leveraged in this new world of AI?

还有个能力是编写评估标准。我知道每个人都能写提示词，做提示工程。你可以尝试引导大语言模型，让它提供更好的见解和结果。但即使你的大模型真的产出了结果，你也需要验证它是否真的聪明，没有产生幻觉或偏离轨道——这就需要创建真实的评估标准。这些都是硬核技能。

There's this skill of being able to write evals. I know everybody can write prompts, prompt engineering. You can try and focus the LLM so that it can offer better insights and offer better results. But even as your LLM actually produces results, you need to verify that it actually is smart and it hasn't hallucinated or gone off by creating true evals. Those are some hardcore skills.

能够约束幻觉，知道具体方法，能使用多个模型并分辨各自的优势。我喜欢探讨的一个话题是：智能意味着什么？人们常说智能就是连接信息点。而美妙之处在于，借助AI，你可以训练它专注于特定任务，使其在某个领域变得异常聪明。

Being able to constrain hallucination, knowing what ways you do that, being able to use multiple models and figure out what is good about this model versus that. One of the things I love to talk about is what does intelligence mean? Intelligence, often people say is connecting dots. And the beauty of what it is that we have an opportunity to do is that with AI, you can find, you can train it so that it's very specific to a very particular task. It can become really smart in one area.

现在的关键是如何结合Claude的强项与GPT的优势，创造出超越两者的东西？这正是我对产品经理的期待之一。还要能为了最佳性能进行调整，无论是模型选择、微调还是权重调整。Ajei对此非常热衷，我们经常讨论这个话题。

And the idea now is how do you combine the smarts of what maybe Claude does with something that GPT does better and make something even greater than each of them? That's one of the things I'm looking for in a PM. And then being able to tweak for best for performance, whether it's choosing, whether it's just fine tuning, doing the weight adjustments. Ajei is very passionate about this one. We talk about it quite a bit.

从态度层面来说，需要强烈的自主性、求知欲和谦逊。要超越提示词层面去理解，真正明白AI只是工具，会犯大错。关键是如何约束、优化、调整它，让它真正为你服务，而不是迷失在它花哨的功能里。

But that's the attitudes point of view where just strong ownership, strong agency curiosity, being humble. And then this idea of understanding beyond prompts, really knowing that AI is just toolbox and it can make major mistakes. And how do you constrain it such that constrain it, optimize it, tweak it so that it can actually work on your behalf and not You need to make it work for you versus being lost in all the things that it's able to do.

这个回答太棒了，和其他人的建议高度一致——好奇心是最重要的技能。其实当我问人们'你在重点培养孩子什么技能'时，被提及最多的就是好奇心。你提到谦逊这点我很喜欢，稍后再详谈。

I love this answer and it resonates so well with so many other people's advice, which is curiosity, skills that matter most. This actually curiosity comes up a lot when I ask people, what skills are you focusing on teaching your kids? The number one skill people mention is curiosity. I love that you included humbleness. Want to come back to that.

总结起来就是好奇心、谦逊、自主性——现在产品经理圈的热词，高自主性确实是PM需要培养的核心能力。还有评估标准这点我也很认同。很快会有一篇重磅客座文章，教你掌握评估标准的全套方法论。

So essentially curiosity, humbleness, agency, such a meme these days and what PMs need to build and be strong at high agency. So great. And then evals, I like that a lot. That's also super common. I have a really cool guest post coming out really soon that'll teach you more than you ever thought you needed to know about how to become really good at evals.

但我想重点强调你刚才说的观点——与其担心AI会取代哪些工作，不如思考作为PM你能接手哪些工作？能不能承担更多工程或设计任务？这种思维方式太激励人心了。

But I want to double down on something you just said, which I love so much, which is this idea of instead of waiting to see what jobs AI takes, it's almost like the way you phrased it essentially is what jobs can you take as a PM? What can you do? Can you do more engineering? Can you do more design? Such an empowering way to think about it.

来聊聊个人经历。我是Women in Product组织的成员，去年底被邀请去演讲，因为当时社区充满恐慌。有个现象叫'CTPO崛起'，就是风投和私募都在质疑：'除了CTO还需要CPO吗？'很多人对此持观望态度，而不是去证明CPO的价值。

Let talk about something that's really personal. I'm part of the Women in Product organization. And I was asked to guess right end of last year because there was a lot of fear in the community. And there was this thing called the rise of the CTPO. It's this thing.

在某些成熟领域，确实可能只需要一个负责人，特别是当业务没有革命性突破时。但让我惊讶的是，太多人选择退缩，而不是展现CPO能带来的独特价值。

It's been in the background there where I think many venture VCs, many PEs were asking, do I need a CPO as well as a CTO? And I was always amazed at how many people were leaned back in this thing versus actually showing and proving the value of what a CPO could be. So in many places, it is right that maybe you do only want one person, particularly when it's very well known spaces. Right. It's clear they're not doing anything revolutionary.

但这就像说工程师和产品人员在那种视角下是等同的。在我看来，首席产品官与首席技术官之间的冲突恰恰推动着创新——因为一方试图优化资源配置（固定要素），而另一方则在实地捕捉机遇并权衡何时行动最有利。在更高层面上，这本来就是他们的职责所在。这种张力非常有益，因为当你们试图最大化组织价值时，需要他们相互砥砺。我说这些是想指出，有些人不去思考如何把蛋糕做大，反而在蛋糕缩小时只盯着如何分割，而不是共同探索扩大机遇的可能性。

But it's like saying an engineer is the same as a product person when you think about it that way. There is a conflict between the CPO and the CTO that actually drives innovation, in my opinion, because one person is trying to optimize the resourcing, the fixed, while another person is actually trying to field opportunities and figure out how to wait and decide what is best to do. At the higher level, those are their jobs. And that tension is really good because you need them to sharpen each other as you try to maximize the value of your organization of the organization. I say all this to say that there are folks who are not stopping to figure out how do we make the pie bigger, but they're looking at instead, how do we divide this pie as it gets smaller versus asking the question of really what is the opportunity to increase this for all of us?

这也正是我所看重的一种能力素养。

And that is a skill set I also look out for.

精彩。稍后我会转到亚吉的话题，但想先回到这个关于谦逊的观点——这建议很新鲜。为什么你认为谦逊对人们如此重要？我还没听过这样的建议。

Awesome. I'm going to go to Yaji in a second, but I want to come back on this humble idea. I haven't heard this before. Why do find it really important for people to be humble? I haven't heard that piece of advice yet.

天啊，尤其在当下这太重要了。比如我读书时就做过神经网络项目，当你职业生涯走到某个阶段时，很容易产生'我对产品已经了如指掌'的错觉。

Oh my gosh. Particularly now, it is really important to be. Because I would say, Okay, I went to school. I actually did neural networks in school when I was doing a project. And you get to this part of your career where you go, I kind of know a lot of what product is.

但我确实看到有些人因为已是首席产品官、产品负责人或资深产品经理，就不愿报名初级AI产品课程。我认为这是错误的。必须认识到你不可能通晓一切——即便作为领导者也是如此。我坚信要领导团队，有时你必须真正了解具体工作。

And I do see folks who are not willing to go sign up for that new junior AIPM course because they're a CPO or they're head of product or they're X, Y, or Z, or they're a principal PM now. And I think that that's a mistake. I think that it's important to realize that you don't know everything. You can't know everything. And even as a leader, CPO, head of product, etcetera, I come from this school where I believe that in order to lead an organization, sometimes you actually do need to know how to do the work.

这种方式让我成为更好的领导者。比如主动参与课程，既为自己学习，也观察其他产品经理提出的问题。向资历较浅者学习课程，重读产品构建基础书籍——在这个AI时代，谦逊的意义正在于此。

And I think I lead better that way. So being able to sign up and say, you know what, let me sit in and figure out how we're going to build this thing. And number one, learn for yourself, but also figure out what questions other PMs are asking in that course. So it's about taking courses from people you may have considered junior, figuring out and reading books that you thought just going back to day one of how do you build products in an AI world. So that's where humility comes to play in this period where we are.

你不可能无所不知，变化速度永远快过你的追赶速度。所以要懂得依靠团队。

It's you just don't know everything, can't know everything, and things will change faster than you're able to stay ahead of. So lean on your team as well.

我最近采访过60多岁的奇普·康诺利，他52岁以实习生身份加入Airbnb。他完全认同这个成功秘诀——作为年长者，要善于向年轻人学习，这本身就是个耐人寻味的隐喻。

I just had this guy Chip Connolly on the podcast. He's in his 60s. He joined Airbnb when he was 52 as an intern. And he said exactly the same thing to be successful. And it's interesting as a metaphor as an older person, you need to be really good at being open to learning from people younger than you.

这对尚未精通AI的人是个绝佳启发：即便对方年轻许多，也能从他们身上学到很多。说到这个，亚吉，你另一点做得特别好的就是深度实践技术——不只是阅读或听播客，而是真正动手构建。谈谈为什么这很重要？你具体通过哪些方式保持领先，而不只是纸上谈兵？

And that's a really interesting, I think lens and heuristic almost for just people that aren't as AI savvy yet, just leaning into that idea of just like, okay, I can actually learn a lot from people around me, even if they're much younger than me. Okay, so, Ajee, something else that I think that you're really good at And you've been spending time on that I think is also really important is getting super hands on with the tech, not just like reading and not just listening to podcasts like this, not just reading newsletters, but like actually building stuff. Talk about just, like, why that's important, what you've been doing to learn and to stay ahead and not just be like a pontificator guy in the clouds.

刚才几分钟的讨论令我共鸣。我把谦逊理解为可教性——当旧范式全面颠覆，当AI领域根本不存在所谓蓝图时（尽管过去几年人们总试图绘制），这种品质就显得尤为关键。

I just love, you know, everything we've said in the last few minutes. You know, I, you know, I think the shorthand I have for humility is humility's teachability. And when do you need teachability? You need teachability when, you know, sort of everything has changed, where there is no blueprint. And whatever you think is a blueprint of AI in the last few years, you know, whether, oh, wow.

Lava Boy非常成功。Replit也非常成功。实际上很有可能这些公司中的任何一家在两三年后就不复存在了，对吧？因为我们仍在书写成功的剧本。因此，谦逊即是可教性，而可教性就是生存能力——如果你在考虑职业发展的话。如果你还想构建一些重要的东西，这一点同样至关重要。

Lava Boy is so successful. The Replit is so successful. It's actually quite possible that any one of those companies won't be around in two, three years, right, because we're still writing the playbook for what success looks like. So humility is teachability, and teachability is survivability if you're thinking about careers. And if you also if you're thinking about building something that's important, it's also important like that.

关于如何保持技能敏锐，我想说的有几点。首先，我和Isa都拥有工程学硕士学位，但我们很快发现自己的天赋在于帮助创造未来——思考如何与开发者合作实现目标。因此我们长期担任产品经理。作为PM意味着即便我们能写代码，我们也不亲自写，而是与开发者协作。

In terms of how we how to keep your hands sharp, what what I would say is a couple of things. One is I have written Isa and I both have a master's engineering, but we very quickly figured out that the thing that we were gifted at was in helping to invent the future where a customer's thinking, you know, how do we work with developers to do that? And so we've been PMs forever. And being a PM means that even though we could, we don't write code. We work with developers.

我们与市场中的其他人合作。但过去一年我写的代码比过去十年还多，因为代码现在本质上就是架构和英语（或任何语言）。我抓住机会写了更多代码：将需求文档写作转化为原型开发，编写更多API接口并亲自用Postman调用这些接口。

We work with other people in the market. But I've written more code in the last one year than I have in the last ten years because code is now essentially architecture and English or whatever language that you have. As well as that mean, I've taken the opportunity to write more code. I've taken the opportunity to convert PRD writing into prototype writing. I've taken the opportunity to write more API interfaces and actually call those API interfaces with Postman myself.

我订阅了所有AI工具，将其视为学习成本以理解每个模型的用途。我主动学习MCPs（模型控制协议）并连接不同组件。比如现在，我选择那些能触及我感兴趣领域的学习项目，就像给自己布置评估作业。出于热爱，我会在这个过程中不断深入学习。

I've taken the opportunity to subscribe to all the AI tools, right, and take that as a cost of learning so that I can understand what each model is useful for. I've taken the opportunity to understand MCPs, right, and connect different things to it. Like, right now, one of my head projects or one of the things I do in order to learn is I pick a project that it's almost like writing an eval. It was an eval for my life to learn is I'll take a pick a project that touches a lot of the things that I need to learn that I'm interested and passionate about. And as I get into it because of my passion, I start to learn more and more.

我有个热衷的项目是住宅自动化。虽然已持续多年，但现在正尝试建造由AI芯片处理器驱动的智能住宅——外表却看似普通，因为我不想让人察觉。为此我正在获取各种模型...

And so one of the passion projects I've had I have is to automate my house. So I've been doing this for years and years, but now I'm trying to build a very smart house run on a processor that has AI chip and inference in it while the house looks dumb. So because I don't want anyone to know about it. So what am I doing? I'm getting models.

学习模型量化技术，研究微调方法，训练模型。我在家中搭建MCP服务器连接智能家居设备，还能与Claude协作打造动态系统。此外，我们正为Adventure Studio融资——这是未来十年我想专注的领域：创建超越书本的标杆性AI企业。

I am think learning about how to what quantization of those models means. I am learning how to fine tune some of them. I'm feeding them. I'm building an MCP server in my house that talks to the home entities, and then I can collaborate with Claude on how to build and make it sort of super dynamic. But beyond that, you know, one of the things we're spending time on is Adventure Studio, raising raising capital for Adventure Studio because that's what I wanna spend the next decade on building seminal AI companies beyond the book.

我正在与顶尖AI专家合作，学习如何编写智能体（agents），理解其真正含义。如我所说：通过编写评估、保持谦逊、在25年PM生涯后重归学徒心态——这就是我保持敏锐的方式。

I'm collaborating with some of the smartest people in AI right now who can teach me how to do this, how to write agents, what agents really mean. And so everything isn't as said, writing evals, being humble, going back after twenty five years of being a PM to being teachable is how I stay sharp.

我想回到那个房子的话题。你的房子具体能做什么？智能化程度有多高？

I wanted to go back to this house. What do you what do you what is your house doing? How how smart is this house?

核心构想是赋予房屋视觉和听觉。最酷的是我设计了一种超级传感器：能识别人体、感知体温、接收声音、监测湿度温度，这些传感器将遍布整个住宅空间。

The the idea is that I give the house eyes and ears, and it senses the the coolest thing is I've specked out what I call, like, a super sensor. It will see people. It will feel their heat. It will hear them. It will sense humidity and temperature, and it it'll just be scattered around the house.

明白吗？我正在自制硬件。基本上当你走进房屋，它就会开始自适应调整：管理能源消耗等等。

Alright? And I'm building the hardware myself. And, basically, as you walk into the house, it starts to adapt itself to you. Right? It manages energy in the house.

它能感知你在房间里。如果你离开，我的孩子们现在不在他们的房间里。好吧，周围的暖通空调系统就停止了，并说，不，他们不在这里。当他们回来前，提前一小时，它就开始预冷他们的空间。

It knows you're in a room. If you leave, my kids are not in their in in their rooms right now. Well, the HVAC around them just stopped and said, no. They're not here. They when they come back before they come back, an hour before they come back, it starts to precool their space.

然后当他们回来时，它会说，哦，他们回来了，并开始制冷。所以他们正在构建很多类似的功能。问题是你不希望这完全僵化，你希望它超级动态和超人性化，这就是AI的一部分。

And then when they come back, it says, oh, they're here, and it starts to do cool things. So there's a lot of stuff like that that they're building. And the question is you don't want that to be completely inflexible. You want it to be super dynamic and superhuman, and so that's part of the AI.

我是这一切的受益者。但我就像，我凌晨1点醒来，想吃吐司。为什么吐司机不

I I am the recipient of all of this. But I I'm like, I I I woke up at 1AM, and I want toast. Why is the toast not

工作？因为等等。他关掉了

working? On. It's because Hold on. He shut off the

电源 这对你有好处。

power It's good for you.

这就是原因。对吧？

That's why. Right?

不。但看看。她走进房子里很多房间，灯就自动亮了。当她离开时，她直接走出去。然后系统知道她不在了，就把灯关了。

No. But look at look. Is in there walks into lots of rooms in the house, and the light just turns on. And when she leaves, she just walks out. And then it knows she's not there, and it turns it off.

而她把这视为理所当然。

And she's taking it for granted.

等等。它真的在做所有这些事。哇。

Wait. It's actually doing all this. Wow.

是的。确实如此。

It is. It is.

这也有点像，不过还有个类似恐怖片版本的这东西。

It's also like, but there's also, like, a horror movie version of this.

没错，确实有。

Yes. There is.

我想说的是，我家人们最好别惹我生气，因为你们懂的，我可能会对他们做出些疯狂的事。所以抱歉了。

I what I will say is that my family should not piss me off because, you know, I could do crazy things to them. So I'm sorry.

天啊好吧。这个是基于...像是你训练的大语言模型构建的吗？这就是它的力量所在？

Oh, man. Okay. And this is built on, like, I like, an LLM that you trained. Is that is that what what the power is?

这里有多层架构。我用了款叫Home Assistant的开源软件，扩展性很强。我可以接入微调过的大模型，也能用那些顶级大模型。还有些小型语音识别模型，比如我只要说'嘿贾维斯'——就像钢铁侠那样——整栋房子就会开始跟我对话，告诉我各种实时信息。

So so multiple levels. There's this open source software called Home Assistant that I use, and you can it's very extensible. So I can put in, like, fine tune LLMs. I can use the big LLMs. They they they there are things like smaller, like, spoken whisper models you can use to like, I can just say, hey, Jarvis, like Iron Man, and it it'll the house will start talking to me and telling me things about what's going on.

大概就是这类功能。

So things like that.

让我们回到正题。

Getting us back on track.

你们现在完全进入极客模式了啊。

What You guys are geeking out right now.

我既兴奋又害怕去参观这栋房子。

I'm excited and scared to visit this house.

跟我老爸一样。

So with my dad.

把这些从我身上拿开。我特别喜欢的一点是，我多次看到这样的情况：为自己解决一个非常具体的问题，是真正掌握这些工具的好方法，因为你有动力去解决问题，这与你只是漫无目的地摆弄工具形成鲜明对比。

Get this out of me. What I love about this is this something that I've seen a bunch is having a very specific problem to solve for yourself is a really good way to build and get into these tools because you're motivated to solve a problem and it's like a specific thing that you're doing versus just generally I'm going go sit around and play with lovable.

不，莱尼，我想深入探讨这一点。上次我们聊天时我提到，我收到很多对AI不太熟悉的人的提问，他们不知从何入手。这正是我的建议——比如，我知道你热爱时尚或阅读，实际上你拥有整个奥斯汀图书馆的在线数据库，只要你愿意完全可以调用它。

No, I think I want to double click on that, Lenny. I was telling you the other time that we spoke that I get a lot of questions from, I would say, people who aren't very familiar with AI, and they don't know where to start. And that is exactly what I say. So, hey, I know you love fashion, for example, or you like reading, And you the you actually have the database of the entire Austin library or whatever it is online. And you can pull it if you really want to.

它可以根据你的情绪推荐书籍。你可以围绕自己热爱的事物创建项目。有位年长女士想开展一个激情项目，我知道她喜欢'今日穿搭'这个概念。

And it can recommend based on your feelings. You can create a project around what it is that you're passionate about. One particular woman, older lady, wanted to figure this out. Figure out a passion project. And I knew she liked this idea called outfit of the day.

于是她利用大语言模型启动了一个项目：花时间整理所有上衣、下装、连衣裙和鞋子。现在她正在开发根据气温推荐当日穿搭的功能。这就是她找到热爱并运用AI构建的案例，帮助她决定'今天该穿什么'或'有哪些搭配选择'。

So with LLMs, she started a project where she actually had she took the time to take all her tops, all her bottoms, all her dresses, all her shoes. And now she's working on based on the temperature, having recommendations of her outfit for the day. So that's one way she was able to find something that she loved and could take a you know, leverage AI to build. And that could help her determine, okay. What should I weigh or what are the options I should consider for today?

这个例子太棒了。

That's an amazing example.

我能做个预测吗？作为总爱高谈阔论的人，我预测未来几年会有大量高能动性人群或产品经理开始编写自动化生活的软件。单人SaaS将消亡，因为真正在意的人会自我自动化——届时将诞生1亿开发者。

Can I just make, like, one you know, I'm always, like, a high concept prediction guy? So I'm gonna make one prediction. I think that, you know, in the next few years, a lot of a lot of high agency people or just PMs will essentially be writing the software that automates their lives. Right? And so the one man SaaS is gonna go away because the ability to there'll be a 100,000,000 developers because we will people who really care will automate their lives.

他们将打造个性化应用。对PM的建议是：我们应该成为先锋。如果能为自己实现自动化，就能为百万用户开发产品——这就是入门之道。我想传递希望：现在仍是第一天。即便你听到微调、家庭助手等我在搭建的硬件感到落后...

They'll build applications that just works with them. And the the the advice for PMs is that we should be the vanguard of that. Because if we can start doing that for ourselves, we'll be able to do that for software that hits a million people because that's the way to get started. And, you know, I wanna we also wanna offer hope it's still day one, meaning that no matter how far you know, if you hear me and hear about fine tuning and home assistant and all this crazy hardware that I'm trying to build, and you're scared. You're like, I'm behind.

其实你没有落后。那些看似领先的人，就像互联网刚普及时微软也觉得自己落后，社交媒体兴起时也有人这么想。最终胜出的往往是起步最快的公司或个人。

You're not behind. You're not behind. People who seem like they're succeeding we were here when, you know, inter the Internet dropped and everyone you know, Microsoft thought it was behind. And, you know, with social, people some people thought they were behind. The people who seem like they're off the gate fastest, whether it's a company or a person, are the people who win.

关键在于智慧与执着。有句谚语说'醒来即是清晨'，所以行动起来就对了。

And so it's the wisest and the most dedicated to whim. And so people should just start. You know, evil people who have the proverb that says, whenever you wake up is your morning. And so just wake up and go.

我太喜欢你们分享的建议了。节目笔记里我会链接一篇文章，展示人们用AI构建的各种案例。多数人的最大困扰就是'我该做什么？'整理资料时我发现：人们总想着能否用工具创建正经产品，但有趣的是，大多数人只想解决自己的具体问题。

I love so much of the advice you two are sharing. There's a post I'm going to link to in the show notes that shares a bunch of examples of what people are vibe coding, building with AI. That seems to be the biggest challenge for a lot of people is just like, what should I actually do? And something that I realized as I was putting that together is people think about like, oh, can you build real products and businesses on bold, lovable replica? But interestingly, most people just want to build a thing that solves a specific problem for themselves.

有时这会演变成一件事，但更大的机会往往在于构建个人软件。就像你分享的例子那样，有人建了个网站，比如'今天该穿几层衣服.com'之类的（我不确定真实域名，可能就三层）。有时你只需要知道这个。本期节目由Coda赞助播出。

And sometimes that turns into a thing, but there's almost a bigger opportunity just to build a personal software. Similar to the example you shared as in a, there's a site, someone built this, like, how many layers should I wear today?dotcom or whatever. I don't think that's the actual domain and it's just like three. And that's sometimes all you need to know. Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.

我本人每天都用Coda管理播客和社区。我会把准备问每位嘉宾的问题存在这里，存放社区资源，管理工作流程。以下是Coda能帮到你的地方。

I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community. It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast. It's where I put my community resources. It's how I manage my workflows. Here's how Coda can help you.

想象开始一个工作项目时，你思路清晰，明确知道分工安排和所需数据的存放位置。事实上你无需浪费时间搜寻任何东西，因为从项目追踪器、OKR到文档表格，团队所需的一切都整合在Coda的同一个标签页里。Coda的协同一体化工作空间兼具文档的灵活性、表格的结构性、应用程序的功能性和AI的智能性。如我所言，我每天都用Coda，超过5万个团队依靠它保持协同高效。如果你是寻求提升协同敏捷性的初创团队，Coda能助你极速从规划迈向执行。

Imagine starting a project at work, and your vision is clear, you know exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part. In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything, because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs, to documents and spreadsheets lives in one tab, all in Coda. With Coda's collaborative all in one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI, all in one easy to organize tab. Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day, and more than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused. If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time.

立即访问coda.i0/lenny，初创团队可免费获得六个月团队版使用权。输入c0da.i0/lenny即可免费开通并享半年团队版福利。Coda.ilennie。现在请允许我将话题稍作拓展。

To try it for yourself, go to coda.i0/lenny today and get six months free of the team plan for startups. That's c0da.i0/lenny to get started for free and get six months of the team plan. Coda. Ilennie. So let me take this opportunity to zoom out a little bit.

我们讨论了很多个人技能层面的内容，关于成功所需的素质。现在我想从公司层面探讨。二位合作过众多企业，也曾在多家公司任职。在观察那些在AI新时代中表现优异、采用最佳实践、实现生产力提升的企业，与那些举步维艰的公司对比时，你们发现成功转型的企业在文化和工作方式上有哪些共性？

We've been talking a lot about personal skills, what you think people need to get better at, what it takes to be successful. I want to talk about at the company level. You two work with a bunch of different companies. You've both worked at a bunch of different companies. When you look at the companies that seem to be doing well in this new AI world, adopting the best practices, seeing productivity gains versus the companies that are just struggling and not getting anywhere and just having a hard time, What do you find is most common across the one that companies that are succeeding, shifting their culture and the way they work in this world of AI?

这个问题先请Ezinne回答。

And I'll throw this to Ezinne first.

我认为关键在于，成功企业将AI视为一组被赋予的核心能力。要明白AI不是可以随意涂抹在产品上的魔法涂料。问题依然是那些问题，客户需求本质未变。现在要考虑的是如何让AI不再停留在边缘应用，而是彻底重构解决问题的路径。

I think the main thing I will say is, recognizing companies that recognize that AI is a core set of multiple capabilities that they've been gifted. I think that you need to understand that it is not this magic thing that you're going to slather on to your product and it will do perfectly. The problems are still the problems. The customer is still the is still the customer, and their pain or sharp problems still exist as they they have. The idea now is how do you take AI and not have it be something we call it, you put at the edge alone, but you actually retransform the way you solve the customer's problem.

我们提出'核心AI'与'边缘AI'的概念。边缘AI是在原有软件架构的各个连接点插入LLM或AI技术；核心AI则是从根本上用AI重构问题空间和工作流，不是简单地在GUI交互节点做点缀，也不仅是加速现有流程。

So we have this phrase called AI at the core and AI at the edge. And the best way to think about it is that with AI at the edge, you're probably still using software as you always have. The bits and bytes that you wrote before still are there. You're instead inserting LLMs or AI at different intersections or connection points. AI at the core means fundamentally looking at the problem space and the workflows and using AI to solve the problem, not just sprinkling it at the intersections of GUIs or user interfaces that are out there or using it to just accelerate things.

那些仅在外围附加AI而保留原有代码库的公司很难颠覆行业。真正做对的是那些让代码库精简、使LLM成为解决方案核心组成部分的企业。另一个特征是专注性——很多公司贪多求全，指望LLM能解决所有问题。但经验表明，应该先深耕垂直领域，再构建智能连接层。

So the way we talk about it is that companies where their code base remains and they are attaching AI to it often aren't the ones who are going to revolutionize industry. Companies for whom their code base perhaps shrinks and the LLM becomes a core part of what it is that they use to solve the problem are companies that actually are doing it right. Another characteristic is specificity. We've seen a lot of companies want to do so many things and expect LLMs to be as broad as the problem sets they want to solve for. And we, in our experience, have seen that.

我们看到不少公司试图打造全能型解决方案，但成功案例往往是那些认清'我的团队专精这个领域，那个团队专注那个方向'的企业。通过这种专业化分工，最终形成有机的智能连接网络。

To do that, you actually will need to have specialized first and then create a layer of a connective tissue that can offer intelligence. So we've seen companies instead just stay on top, try to build this massive solution set or LFM that can do it all. But the successful ones that we've consulted with, partnered with, or talking to are those who instead have seen, you know what? I can find I can build with this team that I have on here can actually build this very specific solution set. This other team can do this.

而我的工作是将这些整合成一个更广泛的多模态解决方案，构建它并为客户打造一个产品。我认为这是两个核心要点。我相信Ajay还能想起其他几点。

And then my job is to tie it all together with a broader, multi model solution, and build it and create an offering for the customer. I think those are two core things. I'm sure Ajay can remember a few others.

不，我觉得没有。我...我...我很谦逊地听你讲。不，所以或许我会稍加润色这个观点。

No. I think no. I I I love I I was humble listening to you. No. So maybe I'll I'll embellish the point.

我们看到有些公司从零开始，重新审视一个老问题、尖锐的问题，然后思考：如果今天以LLM为核心能力、作为代码的核心模块来构建，它会是什么样子？通常，这些人会发现很多加速点，并且实际上在拓展相邻领域。比如David Okunev和我以及一小群人构建的新Typeform，最终它不止是一个表单工具——它还成为了销售线索代理，能完成售前工作，而通常Typeform只是在你与销售对话前进行资格筛选。

We're seeing companies that are starting from a blank slate, taking an old problem, a sharp problem, and saying, if we built it today with LLM as the core capability, as a core sort of blob of code, how would it look? And often, these people are finding a lot of acceleration, and they're actually, like, taking on adjacencies. When a formless type form, you know, a new product built by David Okunev and, you know, and me and a small group of people, we built a new Typeform, and we ended up building more than it because it also became like a sales lead agent. So, like, it did presales, which ordinarily Typeform gets you into qualification before you talk to a salesperson, but the product itself did presale. So that capability was so strong.

我们还看到规模缩减的现象。有趣的是，上周我遇到几家成立五年的公司，在LLM出现后彻底重构了产品。比如Clay.ai这家六年历史的成功企业。第一类属于'可爱型'产品。

We're also seeing the shrinking thing. It's funny. The last week, I've seen companies that have been around for five years who once LLMs came, they just reimagined their product. Like Clay dot ai is a six year old company, super successful. So in the first category is, like, things like lovable.

但第二类人则在思考：我们要重新构想这件事并付诸实践。行业其他人面临的困境是：大量收入绑定在旧代码库上。我们常告诉产品负责人，关键是如何在旧体系中应用LLM，同时向新范式转型——否则就会被颠覆。

But in the second category are people who are like, okay. We're gonna rethink this, and we're gonna do it. Now the problem for the rest of the industry is this you know, is dilemma. They have lots of revenue tied to old code bases. And so they their job is to and, you know, we tell PM leaders all the time, is to navigate how you use LLMs in the old thing, but navigate to the new thing before someone eats your lunch.

这很复杂也很困难，但必须做。现在说几个小观察：成功者都在用户体验上冒险。我们不认为聊天界面是AI体验的终极形态。

And it's not it's complicated. It's hard, but you have to do it. Now let me make maybe a couple of smaller things. The people who are succeeding are taking chance on user experiences. We don't believe the chat interface is the final boss for AI user experience.

GUI存在而命令行被淘汰是有原因的——否则DOS仍是最大操作系统。人们需要创造动态的、个性化的用户体验，我们已看到很多成功案例。

We think that there's a reason GUIZ exists, and the command line didn't work. Otherwise, DOS will be the biggest operating system. And so people have to do different things and be dynamic. You know, one of the big things is dynamic user experiences that personalized to the customer. So we'll see a lot of we see a lot of people succeeding there.

而我们希望但很少看到的是对伦理的重视。AI的核心能力堪比军械级别——终有一天我们会意识到它比氢弹更强大。但众多软件开发者却毫无伦理考量地摆弄这些。优秀企业应该在这方面引领。

And one of the things that we don't see people doing actually that we want people to do is something as you mentioned, which is ethics. You know? Like, we think of AI and its core capabilities as ordinance level, meaning, like, at at some point, we'll think of this as more powerful than the the fusion the fusion bomb. And we have a bunch of software people who have no consideration of ethics play with this stuff all the time. And so one thing we'd like to see the bet best companies do is lead on that.

当我们构建赋予人类超能力的新数字产品时，必须考虑对整个人类的责任。

Like, think about the responsibility we have to the human race when we build new digital products that will give them superpowers.

我想把视角拉得更远。我们开始讨论了个人技能的重要性，刚才又谈了企业在AI浪潮中的成功之道。现在请回顾你们合计50多年的产品生涯：有哪些重要经验是你们希望后人不必再艰难摸索的？

I want to zoom out even further. So we started talking about individual people skills, what's going to be most important. We've been talking just now about what companies are doing well, the ones that are succeeding in this crazy world of AI. I want to now zoom out just your entire product career. I'm curious just when you look back at the fifty plus years of combining experience you two have, what are some of the biggest product lessons that you've learned that you would love to share that you think people can avoid having to learn the hard way?

我想重申我们之前讨论过的关键问题——尖锐问题。你所聚焦的问题很可能最能预测你的成功。选择一个尖锐的问题，选择那种一旦真正解决就会吸引人们蜂拥而至的问题。明白吗？

I think what I want to reiterate the thing that we talked about, sharp problems. Your the problem you focus on is probably the most predictive of your success. Pick a sharp problem. Pick something that if you really solve it, people will come. You know?

回看八十年代的杰夫·贝索斯会觉得他很有先见之明。他说：人们总要购物，我要成为那个满足需求的人。对吧？

It's watching Jeff Bezos from the eighties feels prescient. He's like, look. People always shop. I'm gonna be the guy. Right?

而他确实做到了。所以也要这样做。我谦逊地说这些是因为我曾失败过——有时我们构建的是自己热衷的东西。但创始人身份不是自我陶醉的练习，即便作为公司运营者也是如此。

And he and he did it. So do that. And I say this humbly because I failed because sometimes we build things that we are passionate about. But being a founder is not an exercise. And even an operator in a company.

这不是关于你的热情与才华的表演，而是发现市场需求的修行。所以要坚持这个原则。我们经常谈论简洁性。

It's not an exercise in your passion and your brilliance. It's an exercise in finding what the market needs. So do that. Be disciplined in doing that. We also talk about simplicity a lot.

就在今早，我和一位设计师讨论他复杂的用户体验设计时指出：只有20%的用户会看到这个功能。设计的首要原则是简洁清晰，其次才是花哨。史蒂夫·乔布斯早期就完美诠释了这点——虽然我认为现在的iOS变得复杂了。

Even this morning, was talking to a designer and he had a convoluted user experience. And I said, only 20% of people who come to this will see that. And so the point of design is first simplicity and clarity before we get fancy. And so there's a lot Steve Jobs embodied this earlier on. I think iOS has become complicated.

但请从简洁开始，而简约其实最难。2025年我们是为注意力涣散的大脑做设计。现状是：人们极度分心，科技再难让他们惊叹。

But, like, start with simplicity, and simple is hard. And in 2025, we're designing for distracted brains. There's a couple of things that happen. People are super distracted. People are no longer wowed by technology.

随便你称之为AI，人们只会觉得理所当然。因此简洁性对2025年及未来至关重要。接下来谈谈基础要素——这个问题我想抛给你。

Call it AI all you want. They just assume that it is what it is. And so simplicity is really good for 2025 and beyond, basically. And then, you know, we talk a lot about fundamentals. I'm gonna throw this to you.

本质就在其中。虽然我们工作在软件层，但最根本的是预测人类行为：他们的需求、工作流程等。这方面人类学家和心理学家已有深入研究，如果我们理解这些，就能打造更好的软件。

It's in there. Like, there are ways to figure out the fundamentals. What we do I know we operate in the software layer, but at its most basic, we're trying to predict what humans would do, what they will want, how their soft you know, workflow will go. And there's some there's some you know, there's a there's a layer of that that is quite similar, you know, because our friends, the anthropologists and the psychologists really understand this. And I think if we understand it, we can build better software.

不是吗？我把发言权交给你，不独占时间了。请继续。

But, isn't it? I'm gonna let you I'm just gonna throw this off to you so I don't take up all the space. Go for it.

不，我认为你触及了关键。当我反思惨痛教训时，你提到的简洁性——我也是带着谦逊和失败经验说这些——人们创造复杂解决方案的根源，往往是害怕做出明确主张...

No, I think you're onto something about just So when I think about the hard lessons I've learned, you talked about simplicity. And I'm saying this also from humility and just having learned a lot from past failures. One of the reasons people create complicated solutions is because they are afraid to take a stab, to put their point of

观点鲜明。不，他们并不固执己见

view Opinionated. Up They're not opinionated

不够坚定。这往往源于缺乏高度确信，因为你没有花足够时间了解客户。虽然听起来陈词滥调，但请真正花时间去理解客户，或借鉴他人的经验。绝不能只是把所有选项摊开让客户选择——这简直让人困惑至极。

enough. And that often comes from not having high conviction because you're not sure that you've spent the time with the customer. So with that, I know it sounds trite, but spend time and understand the customer or borrow from others who do. But you've got to not just lay it all out and have them choose which way because it is so effing confusing.

提供一万种选择，只因你无法决断

10,000 options because you can't pick one.

没错。体验变得模糊不清、支离破碎。没人知道该怎么办，因为你做不了决定。简化它，形成自己的观点，并明确表达出来。

Yeah. The experience is so murky, chalky. Nobody knows what the hell to do because you can't make a decision. Make it simple. Come up come up with an opinion, and put your opinion out there.

你可以调整。把那些配置和选项藏起来，必要时放在后台。努力打造最吸引人、最简洁的体验，这样反而能获得更好的用户接受度。即便犯错，这样做也值得。很多时候我们交付复杂体验，根本原因在于缺乏勇气做决策、建立观点并付诸实践。

You can change. Leave the configurations and the options behind. Leave them behind the scenes if you must, but try and create the most compelling, the simplest experience, and you will actually have better adoption. You're better off doing that and being wrong. Many times we leave and ship convoluted experiences because we don't have the courage, number one, to make a decision, create a point of view and ship it out there.

现实经验告诉我：明确观点→付诸实践→发现错误→及时调整，远比提供过多选择更好。后者让你永远无法辨明哪种体验更优。另一个重要战略经验是：从战略到执行最关键的是沟通。

The reality is, and my experience has shown that, you're better off picking an opinion, shipping it out there, being wrong, and then adjusting. That leaving too many options, because you then can never learn what was the better experience overall. So that's one thing. The other major lesson I've learned is actually one about strategy. It is that the best way to go from strategy to execution in a way that activates the entire organization is communication.

永远不要吝啬向团队反复解释「为什么」。有部登月题材的电影（我忘了名字）里，NASA连清洁工都知道「我们要送人上月球」。确保团队每个人都理解行动背后的意义，并能阐述它。

You will never, never spend too much time communicating the why to your organization over and over and over again. I don't remember what movie it was, but I think it was a movie about sending someone to the moon. I'm forgetting what it is. But the idea that everybody in NASA knew that we were working to send a man to the moon, even the janitor knew that. So that idea of ensuring that everybody in the team understands the why behind what we're doing and can speak to it.

前几天在LinkedIn看到马丁·埃里克森的观点：就像产品需要跨越鸿沟找到早期使用者那样，战略传播也需要变革管理思维。总会有先行者——重点关注这些人。

I saw something on LinkedIn the other day. I think it was Martin Erickson who actually posted this. He talked about how the same way we talk about crossing the chasm and figuring out who it is that will adopt a product, we should think about the change management required for strategy communication through that lens. There will be early adopters. Think about those people.

先行者会率先理解战略。当其他人刚开始明白时，他们已在探讨战略的迭代方向。这让我恍然大悟：战略模糊化往往因为人群中只有约5%的先行者。

Those people will hear the message, the strategy. And by the time others are just beginning to understand what it is, they're probably on the next version of the strategy asking what can change? What should change? And that was so clarifying for me because I always wondered why strategy could get muddy sometimes. It's because when you look at your entire population, about 5% are going to be the early adopters.

他们理解并拥护战略，四个月后已开始追问战略升级路径。而这时，有些人才刚刚开窍。

They get it. They buy into it, and they're moving. Four months later, they're onto something, wondering what the next version of the strategy will look like. How do we build on top of this? At that same time, some people are just beginning to get it.

说实话，这解答了我很多疑问，关于为何有人能深入理解并执行战略——他们能复述、解释我们的行动逻辑，而另一些产品经理却仍在困惑‘为什么？怎么可能？我们能这样做吗？’因为他们实际上是变革中的落后者。

And honestly, that answered a lot of questions for me as to how it is that you can be working on a strategy. Some people get it, can recite it, tell you why we're doing what we're doing, while some PMs are still struggling with, but why? How come? Can we do this? Because they are in fact laggards out there.

因此，将战略真正转化为执行的关键在于：把沟通视为核心要素，同时观察团队处于变革管理旅程的哪个阶段——就像‘跨越鸿沟’理论描述的那样。这是我作为产品领导者学到的重要一课。

So that idea of trying to really activate a strategy into pure execution, if you think about communication as a critical element, and then also look at it as how many people what is the crossing the chasm version? Who is at what point in this change management journey? I think that is actually that was one of the major lessons I've learned as a leader in product.

我太爱这种对话了——你们用五十年积累经验，然后直接告诉我们答案，帮我们避开无数弯路。让我试着总结：你们学到最重要的是（顺序可能不对）永远要传达‘为什么’，花再多时间让团队理解工作意义都不为过；其次是别低估推动变革的难度；还有这个‘跨越鸿沟’理论...

I love these sorts of conversations where you two spend fifty years learning and then you just tell us here's all the answers, here's a bunch of stuff that'll save you a bunch of pain and suffering. Let me try to summarize what you shared and tell me what I missed. Some of the biggest things you two have learned over the past fifty years, it's not in the right order, but communicating the why, you can never spend too much time helping people understand why what you're working on is important. Then there's just the change management component of not underestimating the work that it'll take to convince people to adopt something. Then this whole idea of crossing the chasm.

我们播客邀请过杰弗里·摩尔（《跨越鸿沟》作者），想深入理解可以回听那期。然后是保持简约的智慧——说起来容易，但需要勇气坚持做减法，不提供过多选项。你们还提到多数失败源于选错问题——要么不够聚焦，要么没解决用户真实痛点。最后是...持续接触客户。

We had Jeffrey Moore on the podcast, so we'll point to that if you wanna deeply understand what that's all about. Then this lesson of simplicity, keep per just the value of keeping things simple, easier said than done, and having us an opinion, having the courage almost to do something really simple, not give people all the options. And then this, you talked about the idea of most times when something fails, it's the wrong, you're going after the wrong problem. It's not sharp enough or it's just not solving people, something people actually care about. And then just talking to customers.

这事说起来容易，但大多数人做得远远不够。

Always easy to say. Most people don't actually do it enough.

我想简短补充一点职业发展相关的观察。我们的职业轨迹从工程师起步，成为产品经理，读MBA，努力晋升高管...外人看来光鲜，但背后全是刻意规划。

I want to add one more thing, and I'll be brief. This is more more about people's careers like PMs. In our career, we have you know, we started out as engineers basically, became mainline PMs, got an MBA, became you know, worked harder, became executives, and so on and so forth. So some, you know, people look at my career as an as career, and they're like, oh, this is amazing. Well, behind that is a lot of intention.

我们始终清楚下一步目标——那种驱动前行的渴望。没有什么比明确的目标感更有力量，就像老鼠追逐眼前的奶酪。

Like, we always held in our brains what we wanna do next. Like, what is the next step? What is the hunger that drives us? And there's nothing more powerful than intention than, like, imagination. It's like, you know, a little bit of cheese in front of the mouse, like, it chases after.

能清晰构想并追逐理想状态极具威力。我曾遇到一位贵人：在微软最后两年，我因对PM角色倦怠且正在读MBA，转岗成为营销负责人。

Being able to visualize and chase the thing that you see about where you wanna be is so powerful. I talked to a guy who gave me a break. So when I was, you know, the last two years of my time at Microsoft, I switched to become a marketing lead. Right? Because I was a little tired of PM at Microsoft specifically, and I was getting an MBA.

当时与副总裁Dave Mendlin（可能向萨提亚汇报）深谈后，他给了我转型产品营销的机会。今年他告诉我：‘Oji，你十年前说的远期目标，我远远看着你都实现了。’

And I talked to Dave Mendlin. He was vice president, you know, or senior director in the and worked, you know, potentially for Satya. And he gave me a break, and we became a product marketer for a couple of years. But I he came back and talked to me this year, and he said, Oji, everything you told me you wanted to do from afar, I saw that you have done. And you told me about them ten years ago, and I didn't even know that.

这深刻说明：这不仅关乎产品打造，更关乎如何经营自己的职业生涯。

And so it's a very powerful thing. Think that this is not just about how to build better products, but how to manage your own career is super important.

我刚参加了一个演讲活动，一个故事分享会，主题非常相似。那个人一直想成为替补喜剧演员。他学到的教训就是，最好的动力是渴望。保持那份渴望不消退，因为这就像我们之前讨论的项目理念——因为需要解决问题而着手一个项目，是实现目标的绝佳方式。Azine，我记得你还有其他想补充的内容。

I just went to a talk, a storytelling event, and there was a very similar theme. This guy always wanted to be a stand in comedian. The lesson he learned is just the best motivator is desire. Having that desire not fade, because it's kind of like going back to our idea of the project, having a project to work on because you need a problem solved is a really good way to just get to where you want to go. Azine, I think you had something else you wanted to add.

是的。你提到要了解客户、了解客户。虽然市面上有很多关于客户访谈的杂音，但我想提醒大家，客户所说的内容（客户发现、询问他们）与实际行为是有区别的。而AI目前在这方面确实很擅长。

Yeah. You you said this thing about know the customer, know the customer. And I think there's a lot of noise out there about customer interviews, etcetera. But I do want to remind people that there's a difference between what the customer says, customer discovery, asking them things. And AI is really good at that right now.

它能帮你整理所有访谈记录。但要记住，客户的实际行为才更重要。在我职业生涯早期，曾有机会在用户体验实验室工作，进行人种学研究——观察人们的真实行为至今仍是顶尖方法，是最有效的途径。那么在数字领域该如何实现呢？

It can help you get all the transcriptions. But just remember that what they do is actually more important. So earlier in my career, I had the opportunity to have a UX lab that I worked in and ethnographic research, watching what people truly were doing still is top notch. It's the best thing you can ever do. So what does that look like digitally?

核心仍是基础工具，要弄清楚人们如何完成操作。但真正的客户洞察不是用AI阅读所有访谈记录，而是设身处地理解他们。无论用什么方法，你必须做到这点，因为他们说的和实际做的、声称想要的和真实需要的往往不一致。

It's still the core instrumentation, figuring out how people finish things, but also true customer insight comes from not using AI to read all the transcripts of your customer interviews. That isn't what it is. It's actually trying to figure out how to best walk in their shoes. And whatever it takes, you've got to figure out how to do that because it's not what they say they do. It's not what they say they want.

这些都不是你想要的与客户之间的真正亲密关系。你需要尽可能观察他们，理解行为背后的动机。我认为现在特别需要指出这点，因为人们正通过AI取巧处理访谈等环节，以为这样就能获得答案。但真正的洞察来自我所说的人种学研究——通过观察研究，理解他们问题背后的驱动力或需求本质。我们必须强调这点，因为人们误以为AI能解决一切。

Those aren't that's not the true intimacy you want with a customer. You actually want to observe them as much as possible and understand the why behind the actions they're taking. And I think that's a really important thing to point out right now because I think people are cheating with AI through interviews, etcetera, and thinking that they're going to figure it out. But there's a different type of insight that comes from what I call true ethnographic research, studying, observing, understanding the driver behind their problem or the need that they're trying to solve. And I just want to make sure we say that because I think people think AI has come to save it all.

但事实并非如此，AI只会给你垃圾信息，因为人们往往心口不一，甚至意识不到自己在掩饰行为动机。

But no, it's going to give you junk because people don't always say what they mean or they don't realize that they're lying about their reasons for doing a thing.

有些教训，特别是最后这点，你听完可能觉得'懂了懂了'，但必须亲身经历才会真正明白。比如当发现'所有人都说想要这个功能却没人使用'时，才会恍然大悟：啊，原来这就是他们说的那个道理。

I some of these lessons, especially that last one is the kind of lesson that you can hear it and be like, yeah, yeah, I get it. And then you have to actually learn it and find the times. Oh, wow. Okay, everyone told me they wanted this thing and nobody actually used it. Okay, I remember as you know, said that on a I get it now.

所以我们能帮助人们理解的程度有限，有时候必须经历失败。在我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节前，还有什么遗漏或想分享的内容吗？

So I think there's only so much we can do to help people learn these things. Sometimes you just have to fail. Is there anything that we have not touched on, anything that you wanted to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

我认为需要谈谈伦理问题。作为有色人种和父母，我们呼吁产品经理们认真思考他们正在构建什么、在产品中集成什么，这对我们至关重要。

I think we need to talk about ethics. And as people of color and parents, I think that having an having a call to action for our PMs to really be thoughtful about what it is they're building and and what it is they're integrating into their product is really important to to us.

我们想提醒PM们，拥有指挥大量开发者的巨大权力也意味着责任。尽管是老生常谈——我们创造了社交媒体。我在推特工作时常想：天啊，我们犯了多少错误？记得深度伪造技术发明者接受采访时被问到'你的技术会带来什么影响？'

We we just wanna call PMs that this awesome power we have to direct lots of developers comes with responsibility, you know, despite a ban trope. And, you know, we created social media. I worked at Twitter, and I always like, oh my god. Like, how many mistakes do we make? Like, I remember the person who invented deep fakes was interviewed one time, and she said and they're like, what are the implications of your stuff?

然后她说，我不在乎。我当时震惊极了，心想什么？软件工程师，你居然不在乎。她就说，哦，这都是些应对措施罢了。

And she's like, I don't care. And I was so shocked. I was like, what? Software engineer, you don't care. She's like, oh, it's all event that countermeasure.

我当时简直不敢相信。所以产品经理们，我们不该那样。我们真不该那样。我想说的另一点是，我们经常听到的一个痛点是战略问题。那些资深产品经理、首席产品经理总在担心，天啊。

I'm like, oh my god. So PMs, we shouldn't be like that. We shouldn't be like that. I I guess the one thing I also wanted to say is, like, one pain point we hear a lot is strategy. PMs who are, senior PM, principal PM worry about, oh my god.

我该怎么制定产品战略？在书里我们详细探讨了战略的来源，其实并不神秘。你需要了解竞争优势的来源及其含义，比如知识产权、规模经济、范围经济等。由于缺乏系统教育，产品经理往往缺少这些基础认知——客户调研容易学，但掌握七大竞争优势杠杆或企业增长的十种途径（不仅限于产品，还包括分销或卓越商业策略）可能闻所未闻。

How can I do product strategy? And in the book, we talk a lot about the sources of strategy, and there's a it's not mysterious. I think there's things you need to learn about, like, the sources of competitive advantage and even what that means, like, you know, intellectual property or, like, economies of scale, economies of scope. Because there's no formal education about this stuff, PMs don't have the fundamentals they need because, you know, it's easy to learn customer discovery, but, like, learning the seven levers of competitive advantage maybe you've never seen or learning the 10 ways that companies can grow, which is not just products. Sometimes it's distribution or somebody that's superior business strategy.

如果产品经理能掌握这些商学院核心课程般的知识，就能真正成为指引公司方向的人。用令人信服的方式阐述战略，这对职业发展大有裨益。

And these are ideas that if PMs had good material, it's sort of like packed in the middle of business school. You can actually become a person who helps direct your company on where to go and do it in such a way that's so compelling you can talk about it that, you know, it's good for your career.

我记得Elaine，很久以前看过你写的内容：怎么赚钱？要么卖东西，要么出租

I remember, Elaine, I think one time I saw that maybe a long time ago, I saw something you had written around. How do you make money? You sell a thing, you rent

个

a

东西。很多人觉得赚钱方式五花八门难以捉摸，虽然可能没有绝对完整的清单，但确实存在若干可掌握的固定模式。通过研究明白'如何盈利''如何获得竞争优势'本身就是战略工作。

thing. Many people think that it's there are many, many like it's this amorphous thing, but you may not have the truly exhaustive list. But there are a fixed number of things that you can know to create strategy to make money. And just doing the work or doing the research to figure out, Okay, hey, how does one make money? How does one get competitive advantage?

书中我们总结了10种增长杠杆和多重竞争优势层级。掌握这些就能获得80%成为优秀产品总监或首席产品官所需的能力体系。否则就像在猜谜——'这个方案能说服CEO吗？'

In the book, we wrote about 10 growth levers and several levels of competitive advantage. And I think if you master that, you have, like, 80% of a toolset that makes you a compelling director or CPO that can play at that level. And it's super important. Otherwise, you're sort of guessing. You're like, oh, did this deck work for my CEO?

不，你不该这么想问题。

No. That's not what you should think about it.

我会找出Ezinne提到的那篇《所有盈利方式》的文章。不过趁此机会聊聊你的书吧——读者能获得什么、为什么要买，做个推介，然后我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节。

I I'll point to the post that you're mentioning, Ezinne, that is all the ways to make money, but let's use this opportunity to talk about your book, just what people would get out of it, why they should buy it, do the pitch, and then we'll get to the very exciting lightning round.

在我们五十多年的职业生涯中，当我们最初开创产品管理这一领域时，我们以为这将成为主流。全球有3000万开发者，产品经理理应遍布世界各地——在美国、欧洲、非洲运作。但事实证明，最优秀的产品经理全都集中在西海岸某个角落。

In our career, fifty plus years, we when we started this product management thing, we thought, oh, this is gonna be mainstream. There's development. There are 30,000,000 developers, whatever. And there's gonna be product managers all over the world. But operating in The US, operating in Europe, in Africa, it turns out the best PM, this is all ghettoed somewhere in the West Coast Of The United States.

对吧？我们都知道这个现状。我们对此非常不满。机会本应无处不在。

Right? We know this. And we don't like that at all. Right? We think opportunities should be everywhere.

因此我们撰写了《打造火箭飞船》，帮助人们不仅学会构建卓越产品，更要建立能持续创造精品的公司体系。全书分为两部分：基础篇面向资深到首席产品经理，涵盖从简约设计到定价策略等核心要素；进阶篇则指导如何领导高效能的'造船厂'。

So we wrote building rocket ships to help people figure out how to build not only great products, but companies that build great products products to make sure that people have the knowledge not to be one hit wonders. And the book is divided into two. One is the fundamentals. If you're a senior to principal PM, the fundamentals of building a great product, right, all the way from simplicity to even pricing. And then the second part is how do you lead a high performing shipyard?

内容包括从激励团队到制定战略航向——根据市场定位，正如Asena所说——最终统领所向披靡的制造基地。书中后段还探讨了未来几年AI发展趋势。这本书凝聚了我们所有骄傲，名为《打造火箭飞船》。

And how do you go from motivating people to charting the course for the future, depending on where you're in the market, to make you know, like Asena said, to commanding a shipyard that is kick ass. That's that's the book. And, you know, in the latter part, we also talk about, like, what's gonna happen in terms of AI over the next few years. So we are it's called building rocket ships. We're very proud of it.

就在这边展示。它之所以非凡，是因为承载了我们多年积累的实战经验和无数成功案例。

It's right over here. And we think it's awesome because it represents a lot of the of the experience that we've had over these years and a lot of success.

如果想购买的话在哪里能找到？买一本、两本、十本甚至上百本都可以。

And where do folks find it if they wanna go check it out? Maybe you can buy one or two or 10 or 100.

事实上已有企业批量采购。企业客户注意：可通过亚马逊购买，Shopify平台还提供专业增强版。

Some companies have been buying a lot actually in bulk. So this is a note for the companies. But you can buy it on Amazon. You can find it on Shopify. On Shopify, if you go for it, you will there's an additional pro edition.

专业版是团队协作利器，在coda.io平台上线。内容量近乎翻倍——包含产品经理可直接下载使用的检查清单、模板工具集，就像为你职业发展编写的代码库。

The pro edition is like a team product. The book is on coda.io, and you can share it with your team. You can take notes. There's almost double the amount of content because it contains checklists, templates, tools for PMs that they can download and just use immediately. It's almost like code for you, for your PM career.

我们提供纸质书和Coda版本。特别注重实操性：使用Coda版的读者每读完章节，就能立即调用配套模板、框架和分步检查清单等实战工具。

We have the the book, and then we have the coda version. And one of the things we really worked on was making it actionable. So the minute you if you get the coda version, you can read a chapter and then you'll have templates, frameworks, step checklists, whatever it is that we felt made sense. We made that available via the coded version.

这简直是价值宝库！播客里总说不清网址——具体怎么找到这个版本？

What a motherload of value. Where do people always have an issue saying the URL on podcasts. I just want make sure. What's that? How do you actually find this version?

你说它在Shopify上，但可能需要一个域名才能访问。

You said it's on Shopify, but there's probably a domain name to get there.

所以如果你访问www.productmind.c0/brpro，就能购买专业版。如果你已经购买，还可以用它登录Coda版，然后就能直接使用了。

So if you go to www.productmind.c0/brpro, You can buy the Pro edition. And if you've bought it, you can also use it to log in to the Coda edition, and you're off to the races.

太好了。我们也会在节目说明里附上链接。现在，我们进入激动人心的快问快答环节，我也为你准备了五个问题。

There we go. Amazing. We'll also link to it in the show notes. And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you too.

准备好了吗？

Are you ready?

是的。

Yes.

第一个问题是：你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？

First question is what are two or three books you find yourself recommending most to other people?

我们刚提过一本，《打造火箭》

We just did one. Building rocket

《打造火箭》是第一本，我们可不害怕自我推广。但对我来说另一本是托尼·法德尔的《建造》。我在尼日利亚筹建加速器时遇到了托尼，这本书简直太棒了，我强烈推荐。

Building rocket ships is the first one, so we're not afraid to self promote. But, also, the other one for me is build, Tony Fadel. You know, I ran into Tony in Nigeria building an accelerator, and he it was just incredible book, so I totally recommend it.

对我来说，适用于工作和生活等各方面的一本书叫《放任他们理论》，作者应该是梅尔·罗宾斯。我特别喜欢这本书，因为产品经理往往有控制欲或属于A型人格，有时候很难放手让别人自主行事。

One for me, and it's both for work and life, etcetera, is this one called the Let Them Theory. I think it was Mel Robbins. I I love it. I just think that many times PMs are control freaks or a type. And being able to leave people to their own devices sometimes is hard.

《放任他们》提醒我们：当允许他人做自己时，我们自己也能获得更多喘息空间。

So let them reminds us that we get a lot more rest for ourselves when we let people be.

我刚刚在听那本书的有声版。它就那样一直稳居畅销书榜首，每周都是。这到底是本什么书？而且真的超棒。我其实是在你的背景里听的。

I was just listening to that book on audio. Was like, it's sitting at the top of the bestseller, like every freaking week. What is this book? And it's so good. I sat in your background actually.

注意到你在读这本书。是啊，太精彩了。最让我震撼的是——听书时才发现——它还有第二部分。不只是'随他们去'而已。

Noticed that you're reading. Yeah, it's so good. It's such a And simple the thing I learned at listening to it is there's a second part to it. It isn't just let them. Don't know.

'随他们去'对吧，就是这本。核心就是'让我...'对，就是这个意思。

Let them. Yeah, it is. It's about let me. Yeah, exactly.

我一直在实践这个方法，效果非常强大。

I've been using it. It's really powerful.

不是说...书确实很好，得承认作者的功劳。但这个理念其实很简单，很多宗教等体系都在用。只是她把理论...

Didn't. I mean, the book is good. Yeah, let's give her credit. But it's such a simple thing that other people in many religions, etcetera, have used. But she grounds.

具象化了，她向读者展示了为什么需要这样做，以及如何在常见情境中避免控制他人。我很欣赏这点。

Makes she shows you why it's necessary and how show up trying to control others in situations that are very common to most people. So I like that.

从没想过能应用到项目管理场景，太妙了。顺便说作者是梅尔·罗宾逊。对，梅尔。下一个问题——

I never thought of it in the PM context. That is very cool. And it's by Mel Robinson, by the way. Yes, Mel. Next question.

最近有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

我们最近一起追了几部剧。有部叫《永远》的特别打动我们，总说等孩子长大一定要给他们看。是个爱情故事，

So we watched a few shows together recently. So I would say one that we loved, and we couldn't we kept saying, gosh, we can't wait for our kids to be old enough to watch. It was one called forever. It was just really, really good. It's a love story.

由小说改编，从非裔美国人视角重新演绎，制作非常精良。剧名就叫《永远》。还有部我们很喜欢的，因为主演是斯特林·K...

It was a book reimagined, done from an African American point of view. It was just really well done. So that's a TV show. It's called Forever. And another one that we really liked because I think it was Sterling K.

布朗就是天堂。我真的很享受。它很有趣。它

Brown is Paradise. I really enjoyed it. It was interesting. It

太棒了。让我们一直...它太出色了。

Excellent. Kept us It's excellent.

是啊。再见，你呢？

Yeah. Adieu, what about you?

马特正在扮演那个角色。然后我们一直痴迷的电影是《罪人》。我们超爱《罪人》。我想我看了两遍。我儿子看了大概三四遍。

Matt is on the role. And then the the movie that we've been geeking out on is sinners. We just love sinners. I think I saw it twice. My son son saw it, like, three or four times.

我们只是库格勒和他讲故事方式的超级粉丝，所以我们很喜欢那部电影。

Just big fans of Coogler and the way he tells stories, so we love that.

我最近刚看完这两部，它们都走向了完全意想不到的方向。我就想，我怎么没预料到会这样？

I've I've seen both those two recently, and they're both at very unexpected they've been unexpected directions. I'm like, why didn't I see this coming?

是的。是的。

Yes. Yes.

哦天哪。是啊。《罪人》那部电影太美了。我当时就想，哇。但我其实很讨厌恐怖片。

Oh, man. Yeah. That movie is beautiful sinners. I was like, wow. And then but I I really hate scary movies.

我却很喜欢这部。最近还有别人也提到过这部电影，其实嗯...在播客上。下一个问题。你们最近有没有发现特别喜爱的产品？

I enjoyed that one. Someone else recently mentioned that movie too, actually Mhmm. On the podcast. Next question. Do you is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

可以是小工具、衣服、厨房设备，或者打个盹也行。

Could be a gadget. Could be clothes. Could be kitchen device. Could be a nap.

我先开始。我超爱Claude。就像奥黛丽说的，它是我的得力助手。我什么事都用它。但显然学到的教训是——尽管你总说它是生成式AI，但你要主动生成内容，让它来优化。

I'll start. I I love Claude. It's like Audrey says, it's my sidekick. I use it for anything and everything. But, obviously, the thing you learn is don't even though you keep talking about it as generative AI, be the generator and let it refine.

这才是关键诀窍。懂吗？这是每个人都该学会的技巧。

That's the major trick. You know? That's the hack everybody should learn.

终极技巧。别让它生成。

Super hack. Don't generate.

先自己生成。生成出来。再让它优化。

Generate first. Generate. Let it refine.

让它辅助你。否则你会得到垃圾。抱歉。

And let it help you. Otherwise, you're gonna you get bullshit. Sorry.

没错。我深有体会。

Yes. I really get that.

另外我要说——我新买了Nespresso的Vertuo咖啡机，就是你们从我这儿看到的那款？现在所有人都在用，我有点不爽...虽然它还是我最爱的产品，但大家都在用。懂吗？关键是现在我们喜欢保持它干净闪亮。现在大家都用，就没以前那么干净闪亮了。

And one I'll I'll say I have this new Nespresso machine, the Vertuo that what you got from me? Everybody is using it now, and I'm kinda pissed because but it's still my favorite product, but everybody's in it. You know? The reason that is and now we like keeping it really clean and shiny. And now that everybody's using it, it's not as clean and shiny as it used to be.

她说'所有人'的时候，指的是家里其他成员。她想独占使用。

When when she says everybody, she means everyone else in the house. She wants to use it by herself.

好吧。说清楚点。她需要单独再买一台自用。

Alright. To be clear. She needs a second version just for herself.

对。我们需要再买一台。然后平民百姓们可以用另外那台。

Yeah. We need another one. And then the the plebs and the pleurthora can use the other ones.

没错。

That's right.

正是如此

That's just what

就是这样。当它们表现好的时候。当它们

it is. When they're good. When they're

给我制作拿铁时，热的、冰的，所有那些花样。我超爱。Aji，你呢？

making my lattes, hot, cold, all of that stuff. I love it. Aji, what about you?

我就是喜欢用这些改善我生活的新AI工具。比如Gamma很棒，Framer也不错。开始用Lovable时感觉像降级了点——毕竟我之前用更硬核的工具。但像Olama、LM Studio这些，都是我用来实现装修爱好家的方式。

I just like using, like, these new AI tools that have improved my life. Like, Gamma is good. Framer is also good. Getting to Lovable because I sort of, like, say, using the hardcore stuff. And so using Lovable felt like a little step down a little bit, but, like, Olama, LM Studio, these are ways that I used to do my hobby of improving the house.

不过我还特别痴迷本地模型。这些开源模型可以随处部署，LM Studio和Olama是我的心头好。对，这些就是让我兴奋的东西。

But, also, I'm super into local models. These open source models running them because feel like I can put them in different places. LM Studio and Olama are just favorite things. So, yeah, those are some of the things I'm vibing on.

订阅我的付费通讯就能免费获得Gamma和Lovable一年使用权。哦对了，你们知道吗？

Gamma and Lovable get a year free by becoming a paid subscriber of my newsletter. Oh, yeah. Did you know?

听说过Lovable，但不知道Gamma也有这福利。

I heard about Lovable. I didn't know about Gamma.

当然。说不定哪天Framer也会加入。那边有很多活动，去Lenny'snewsletter.com点击产品通行证看看吧。

Absolutely. And maybe Framer someday. There's a lot going on there. Check it out. Lenny'snewsletter.com click product pass.

好的。最后两个问题：你们有没有特别受用的人生格言，无论是工作还是生活中经常回味的？

Okay. Two more questions. Is there a favorite life motto that you two find really useful and come back to in work or in life?

那我就分享两条吧，其中一条源自童年。我母亲在家里挂过一块小匾，上面写着‘值得做的事，就值得做好’。有趣的是，我一直以为这是所有人的生活准则，现在才意识到并非如此。所以我时常想起这句话。

So I'll give you I'll say two, and one has been from childhood. My mother had a little plaque in our house that said anything worth doing is worth doing well. And it's so funny. I just I assume that that's how everybody lives, but I realize now that it isn't. So I come back to that all the time.

可以说这条来自我母亲。而我自己践行并可能源自成长经历的准则是：无论身处何地，都要让它变得更好。就像只要我在场，就要有所改善。简单到比如走进脏乱的卫生间时，尽可能清理干净——就这么简单。

And then so I'll say that came from my mother. But the one I think I've adopted and probably just general upbringing is this thing that anywhere you are make better. So it's like by being there, I've made it better. And it's simple things like you walk into a bathroom, it's nasty, try and clean up if you can. It's that simple.

很美好。但这就是我奉行并赖以生存的信念。

Beautiful. But it's something I I live with and I live by.

阿吉，你有什么要分享的？

Ajee, what you got?

其实我已经提到过一条：无论何时醒来都是你的早晨。所以我尽量少花时间回顾过去——除了汲取教训——只管向前，因为宇宙和前进运动是无限的。这是句古老的谚语。另外我从父亲那里学到的是持续学习，但这不意味着要缺乏自信。

You know, I I mentioned one already, which is whenever you wake up is your morning. So, like, I I I try I try to spend very little time looking backwards except to mind the lessons of it and just move forward because the universe and the forward motion is infinite. And so it's an evil proverb. So I wanna say that. Well, the other thing I think I learned from my dad is just, like, learn all the time, but doesn't mean that you should be not confident.

明白吗？关键在于意识到外界知识远多于你已知的，但这不意味着你要畏缩。事实上，应该为偶尔被称作‘愚蠢’而自豪，因为每个人在某些方面都是无知的——毕竟人类认知有限。要在保持自信的前提下学习，同时对自己已取得的成就有清晰认知。

You know? It's this idea that there's more knowledge outside your brain than inside it, and that doesn't mean you should be in a crouch. In fact, you should be proud of being called stupid for a second because you'll we're all stupid at something, right, in the sense that we don't know. There's so many things we don't know because we're finite. But do that and still be confident so you can learn but still have a sense of self on what you've accomplished.

这就是我每日践行的准则。

And so I try to live by that every day.

真喜欢你们各自分享的两条，都如此精彩。可惜到了最后一个问题——我喜欢对嘉宾提的经典问题：你们最欣赏对方哪一点？

I love that you each had two and they're both so wonderful. Unfortunately, final question, something that I like to do with duo guests. I switch between two types of questions. I'm going ask you this one. What's something you love about the other person?

我最爱乌吉总是活在未来。显然我从中受益——我们能共同规划。他对未来有着极强的规划意识，这让我们在生活中作为伴侣，甚至在经营公司时都能目标明确地携手前行，这是我非常欣赏他的特质。

I love that Ujji lives in the future. And as obviously I get the benefit of this, we get to plan. He's very intentional about the future. And it just makes us move together with intention for us partners in life as well as even with our our company. I think that is something I really appreciate about him.

太暖心了。

So sweet.

关于Izina，我最欣赏的有两点。一是她非常包容、充满爱心，是个友善的人。每次介绍她时我都会说：等着瞧吧，和她交谈后——

So there are two things I love about Izina. One is she is I think she's very accepting, loving person. She's nice. Like, when I introduce her, I say, look. You're gonna talk to her.

你肯定会忘记我的存在，因为她比我友善十倍。当然我也不算糟糕，但她实在比我亲切太多。第二点是很多人不知道的——她是个出色的解决问题高手，对吧？

You're gonna forget about me because she's 10 times nicer than I am. I'm I'm not a horrible person, but she's just way nicer than I am. And so that's that's great. The second thing is something that people don't know about her is that she's a great problem solver. Right?

随便抛给她什么难题，她总能给出意想不到的解决方案。那种非对称思维令人惊叹，经常让我感叹'我怎么就没想到'，这点也让我特别欣赏。

Like, she will you throw something at her, and the asymmetric thinking is incredible. Right? That you know, like, I didn't think of that. It happens to me all the time, so I love that too.

Sine和Aji，这真是太棒了。我们涵盖了这么多内容，分享了这五十年来关于生活、工作、产品管理的种种经验。最后两个问题：大家在哪里可以联系到你们？听众们怎样才能帮到你们？

And, Sine and Aji, this was amazing. We covered so much ground, so many lessons learned over these past fifty years about life and work and PMing and all the things. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they wanna reach out? And how can listeners be useful to you?

首先可以通过www.productmind.co找到我们，这是我们帮助创始人和企业打造更好产品的平台。其次在Substack上以'product mind'名义发布内容，目前主要是这两个渠道。

They can find us online at www.productmind.co. That's first. That's where we help founders and help companies build better products. They can find us on Substack where we publish as product mind. I think those are the main places.

我们正在尝试向YouTube等平台输出内容，探索扩大影响力的方式。不过前面说的两个仍是主要阵地。

Like, we are starting to put content out in, like, YouTube or, you know, just experimenting with how to amplify our voice. Well, those are the two main places you can find us.

太棒了。我们会在节目说明里附上所有链接。那么Azuni...

Awesome. And we'll link to all that stuff in the show notes and then, yeah, Azuni.

同样地，我们的领英账号——我常说我的私信永远开放，这是我对同事们的承诺。欢迎大家联系我们，

No. Same thing. Like, our LinkedIn, we're I always say my DMs are always open. That's what I always tell people at work. You can reach out to us.

我们通常都会及时回复。不过productmind.co确实是最佳联系方式。

We we're pretty responsive to most people. But, yeah, productmind.co is the best way to get ahold of us.

关于如何帮助我们——你们打造的社区让我们深受启发。虽然我们已加入几个社区，但非常希望与更多产品经理合作，特别是当前处境困难的高管群体。无论是建立合作还是直接来电，我们都希望把那些我们无意承接的机会转给有需要的同行。有时候机会传递的渠道并不明显，所以联系我们可能就会找到互利共赢的切入点。

How can we be useful to us is, like, we are so inspired by what you've done with your community. And we're part of a few communities, but we are very interested in partnering with more PMs, especially executive cohort, like, who are having a hard time right now. Like, partnering with us, calling us like, we wanna be able to distribute opportunity that we may not be interested in to PMs who are struggling right now. And sometimes it's not obvious where to pass opportunity that we're not interested in. So I think useful to us is reach out and there might be intersections that help you or help us do it.

太棒了。那么这是通过LinkedIn的私信，理想情况下，还是通过你们的网站？

Amazing. And that's through DMs on LinkedIn, ideally, or through your website?

是的。通过我们的网站或Substack，或者只是一个链接。好的。

Yes. Through our website or through Substack or just a link. Okay.

所有渠道都可以。难以置信。也非常感谢你能来参加。

All the places. Incredible. Thank you too so much for being here.

非常愉快。

Such a pleasure.

谢谢你，Lenny。我们真的很欣赏你为我们社区所做的一切，太了不起了，向你致敬。

Thank you, Lenny. We just like what you're doing for our community is incredible, hats off.

我很感激

I appreciate

很高兴看到这一年来的进步。所以，是的，嗯，谢谢你。

Good your to see the progress over the year. So yeah, well Thank you.

谢谢你。你也是。

Thank you. You too.

好的。

Okay.

大家再见。谢谢收听。如果你觉得这期节目有价值，可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。同时，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。

Bye everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

你可以在lennyspodcast.com上找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。下期节目再见。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.