Netflix如何打造卓越文化 | Elizabeth Stone（首席技术官）

如果没有高人才密度作为基础，我们实际上无法实现文化中的其他方面，包括坦诚、学习、追求卓越与进步、自由与责任。这在某种程度上深刻体现了Netflix创始人里德·哈斯廷斯的理念。他创立Netflix并带领公司发展时，就坚信可以采取一种不同的企业建设方式，打造一个让人们茁壮成长、热爱工作并感受到与众不同的环境——这不仅体现在人才密度的高质量上，更重要的是卓越的成果，而人们将从中获得巨大的成就感。这一理念自Netflix创立之初就根植其中。要实现这一点，你必须坚持许多违背人类本能的行为准则。

We can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture, including candor, learning, seeking excellence and improvement, freedom and responsibility, if you don't start with high talent density. And in some ways, it's very reflective of Reed Hastings as founder of Netflix. So when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time, it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places, both in the quality of that talent density, but even more importantly, the excellence and the outcomes, and that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment. So it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days. And in order to do that, you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior.

今天的嘉宾是伊丽莎白·斯通。作为Netflix的首席技术官，据我所知，她是首位在财富500强企业担任CTO的经济学家。在此职位之前，她曾担任数据与洞察部门副总裁。加入Netflix前，她是Lyft的科学副总裁、Nuna的首席运营官、美林证券的交易员，以及Analyst Group的经济学家。我们的对话涵盖广泛话题。

Today, my guest is Elizabeth Stone. Elizabeth is Chief Technology Officer at Netflix and as far as I can tell, first economist to ever be named CTO at a Fortune 500 company. Prior to this role, Elizabeth was vice president of data and insights. Before Netflix, she was vice president of science at Lyft, COO at Nuna, a trader at Merrill Lynch, and an economist at Analyst Group. In our conversation, we cover a lot of ground.

我们探讨了经济学背景如何助力伊丽莎白的职业生涯，以及为何她预见会有更多经济学家在科技公司晋升。她分享了在多家公司持续快速晋升的秘诀。我们深入解析了Netflix独特的高人才密度文化、极端坦诚、自由与责任理念。同时讨论了Netflix数据与用户研究团队的结构——她认为这是公司成功的关键要素之一。我们还聊到自行车和铁人三项给伊丽莎白的人生启示，以及她如何将这些融入工作等诸多内容。

We talk about how an economics background has helped Elizabeth in her career, and why she expects to see more economists rise in the ranks of tech companies. She shares some of her secret sauce for rising so quickly at so many companies so consistently. We delve into Netflix's very unique culture of high talent density, radical candor, and freedom and responsibility. We also talk about the structure that Netflix has for their data and user research teams, which she believes is a part of Netflix's secret to success. We also get into what biking and triathlons have taught Elizabeth about life and how she brings that into her work, and so much more.

特别感谢阿里·拉奥引荐伊丽莎白。若喜欢本期播客，别忘了在您常用的播客应用或YouTube订阅关注。这对节目帮助巨大，我深表感激。接下来请听赞助商简短插播后与伊丽莎白的对话。本期由Vanta赞助播出。

A huge thank you to Ali Rao for introducing me to Elizabeth. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. This helps tremendously, and I really appreciate it. With that, I bring you Elizabeth Stone after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

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访问sendbird.com/leni开启您的免费之旅。网址是sendbird.com/leni。伊丽莎白，非常感谢你能来参加我们的播客节目，欢迎你。

Visit sendbird.com/leni to begin your free journey. That's sendbird.com/leni. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

谢谢。感谢邀请我。

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

当我们预约这次对话时，你还是Netflix的数据副总裁，而如今你已晋升为Netflix的首席技术官，这个头衔听起来气派多了。我想问你，从数据副总裁到首席技术官，生活有什么变化？最大的不同是什么？

So when we booked this conversation, you were VP of data in Netflix, and since then, you got a promotion. You're now the CTO of Netflix, which feels significantly more fancy. Question for you. What is life like now that you are CTO versus VP of data? How is it most different?

我猜会议变多了吧。

I'm imagining more meetings.

我认为最大的变化可能是需要频繁切换工作场景，以及总觉得自己要学的东西太多。其实在之前担任数据与洞察副总裁时，我就觉得需要学习很多领域知识，因为业务覆盖面广，总有值得请教的人。但工程部门直接把这种学习强度提升到了百分百——要认识更多同事，接触更多问题领域，面对许多我不太熟悉的技术专长领域。没错，会议也确实更多了。

I would say the biggest thing that changed is probably the amount of context switching and the degree to which I feel behind or I have a lot to learn. And I felt like I had a lot to learn in the VP of data and insights role that I was in before, in part because we cover a lot of different areas of the business and there's always people to learn from. But the engineering organization just takes that to 100, basically. So more people to get to know, more problem spaces, aspects of technical expertise that I'm just not as deeply familiar with. And yeah, a lot more meetings.

我猜还有很多更高风险的会议吧。

I imagine many higher stakes meetings as well.

确实。不过好在Netflix的会议很少让人感觉如临大敌，但这个职位确实承载着更大的责任，这其实是件令人兴奋的事。

Yes. Though thankfully, not a lot of meetings at Netflix feel like now you're really in this scary room, but it does feel like the role has more consequence, which is actually an exciting thing.

正如你刚才谈到的，作为首席技术官，你的背景确实与众不同。你是一位受过专业训练的经济学家，拥有经济学博士学位。据我所知，你是财富500强企业中首位经济学背景出身的首席技术官。首先，这是真的吗？

Kind of along the lines of what you just talked about, being a CTO, your background is actually unusual. You're a trained economist. You got a PhD in economics. And from what I can tell, you're the first CTO of a Fortune five hundred company that is an economist trained in economics. First of all, is that true?

不知道这是否属实，但我认为是真的，不过还是由你来告诉我吧。

Don't know if that's I think that's true, but you tell me.

我没有查过名单。这是获得头衔后我没做的事情之一。可能确实不常见。我收到过很多这方面的反馈。所以不确定自己是否是唯一，但可以肯定地说这种情况可能比较罕见。

I have not checked the list. That was one of the things I did not do after getting the title. Might be unusual. I've heard a lot of feedback on that. So I don't know if I'm the one and only, but I will definitely say it's probably unusual.

是啊。所以问题在于，你认为这是个特例并将持续显得怪异吗？还是觉得未来科技公司会出现更多类似情况？总体而言，你认为科技公司应该招聘更多经济学家吗？

Yeah. So I guess the question is just, do you think this is an anomaly and gonna continue to be really weird? Do you think this is Some are gonna see more at tech companies? And generally, you think tech companies should hire more economists?

对最后一个问题回答是肯定的。这是最容易回答的部分。但根据我的观察，即使在专注于数据科学的领域——我曾深入参与过一段时间——经济学也是数据科学的一种表现形式。它确实是一套技术技能，是构建问题和应对挑战的方法论。

Yes, to the last question. That's the easiest of it. But one of the things I observed, even with the focus on data science, where I've been deeper for a period of time, is that economics is a flavor of data science. So it's a set of technical skills, for sure. It's a way of framing certain problems or solving challenges.

当初我从经济学转向科技领域时，数据科学还没有像最近这样成为热潮。那时要论证经济学是数据科学的分支、且能与其他数据科学形式互补更为困难。如今近距离观察后，我对此更加确信。延伸来说，就像数据科学能解决许多乍看之下不需要数据介入的问题那样，我认为经济学对各类挑战普遍具有价值。特别是在商业环境中，在我们希望以可操作性方式简化问题时，这种视角尤为有益。这种专业训练带给我的思维方式，在不同岗位上都发挥了积极作用。

And so when I was first switching from economics into tech, it was before there was a lot of the frenzy around data science that we've seen more recently, and it was harder to make that argument that economics is flavor of data science and maybe complementary to other versions of data science. And I feel more strongly about that now that I've seen it up close. And so maybe by extension, I would say, just like I think data science can be helpful for a lot of different problems that you might not immediately think, Oh, this is something that we should bring data to. I think that economics is generally valuable for a lot of different challenges, and it's a useful perspective to add to things, especially in a business context, and especially in how we wanna simplify problems in a way that makes them feel tractable. So I feel like that's been a benefit to me to have had that type of formal training and then bring that perspective or way of thinking to different roles.

网飞内部没多少人把我视为经济学家，但我发现这种思维模式会自然流露。只要这个前提成立，我认为这种思维对多数企业都有价值。而且自从转向科技领域后，我明显感觉到团队配备经济学家的理念正变得越来越普遍。

And so I don't know that many people at Netflix think of me as an economist, but I find it comes out in the way I think about things. So to the extent that that's true, generally, I think it's useful in a lot of companies. And I feel like even since I made the switch towards tech, I've seen it become much, much more common to think about the value of having economists on teams.

再深入探讨一下这个问题，你能分享一些非常具体实用的经验吗？这些来自你背景的经验对你的职业生涯有何帮助？

Just to pull on that thread a little bit more, is there something very tactical or concrete that you can share that you find helpful with that background that you found helpful in your career?

除了那些枯燥乏味的科学理论外。一个例子可能是理解激励机制和考虑意外后果。我认为这在内部领导力方面同样适用——比如作为管理团队的一员，思考如何明确优先级、激励公司或定义我们要解决的问题。另一部分则更偏向外部导向。

Other than the dismal dry science of it all. One example would probably be in understanding incentives and thinking about unintended consequences. And I think that that is true both in terms of internal leadership. So being part of a management team that's thinking about how do we clarify priorities or motivate a company or define the problems we want to solve. And then part of it is more externally oriented.

我们该如何思考Netflix对消费者的意义？如何思考竞争问题？这里存在理性思维方式，即经济学的一种观点：理性聪明的人难道不该这样行事吗？但同时也存在另一种情况：在特定激励下，可能会出现我们未曾预料到或认为不理想的结果。这种思考框架——虽然不确定是否经济学独有，因为它也包含心理学元素和前瞻性规划——对于理清因果关系非常有用。这种思维方式在Netflix和我担任的其他职位中都多次派上用场。

How do we want to think about what Netflix is to consumers and how we want to think about competition? And there can be a rational way of thought, which is one version of economics of shouldn't rational, intelligent people behave in the following way? And then there's the, well, if given certain incentives, what might you see that we didn't think was optimal or we weren't expecting to happen but could be a consequence or repercussion here? And so I think that that type of framing, I don't know if it's unique to economics in a way, because it has elements of psychology to it as well and kind of planning ahead, has become really useful for thinking through kind of cause and effect. So that has come up in a lot of different spaces in Netflix and in other roles I've been in.

我看了你的LinkedIn和职业历程，发现你在四家公司都实现了火箭般的晋升。简单回顾一下：第一份工作三年内从助理升至副总裁；在Nuna两年内从数据科学经理升任COO；在Netflix三年内从副总裁做到CTO。这确实非常罕见。

I was looking at your LinkedIn and looking at your career over the years, and it seems like you've had a meteoric rise at four different companies, and I'll just walk through them briefly. So at your first job, you went from associate to vice president in three years. At the next company, Nuna, you went from manager of data science to COO in two years. At Netflix, you went from VP to CTO in three years. I think that's really rare.

我很好奇，你在这么多地方都如此成功的秘诀是什么？特别是对于职业生涯初期的人，你有什么建议可以分享？

I'm curious, what is your secret sauce to being so successful at so many places, and especially in the context of what advice can you share with folks earlier in their career?

这个问题引发了我平时不会做的反思，这很好。我确实不认为有什么秘诀，但或许可以分享一些关键因素。你刚才列举的时间线显示，两到三年似乎是个关键期。虽然说起来可能有些老套，但我对工作和团队始终全力以赴。

This is one of those questions that sparks the reflection that I wouldn't normally do, so that's great. I really don't think of it as a secret sauce, but maybe I can walk through some of the things that I think have been instrumental. As you listed that out, it sounds like the two to three year point is the real sweet spot. Maybe there's something about that timeline. But I think some things almost feel trite in how I would say them, which is I'm very dedicated to the work and to the teams I'm part of.

长久以来，全身心投入工作已成为我的特质。我认为这种奉献精神以及从中获得的快乐很重要——因为热爱所做之事，所以竭尽所能。这更多是出于团队考量而非个人野心，我觉得必须为团队交出满意答卷。

It's been part of who I am for a long time that I give everything I've got to the job that I'm in. And I think that dedication and that I get joy out of that has mattered. It matters because I enjoy what I'm doing. I do the best work I possibly can, less so for myself and my own ambition and more so because I think of myself as being part of a team. And so I really need to deliver for that team.

我认为这种思维框架和动机在多个方面帮助了我，包括我与同事建立合作关系的方式——我真心关注如何帮助他人成功，并努力成为人们愿意合作的对象。我们互相学习，共同为业务创造更好的成果。我发现其中关键是要能架起技术与非技术之间的桥梁，这确实是我角色的相对优势。虽然我常驻技术团队，但职业发展更多需要这种沟通流畅性的角色。

And I think that framing in my mind and that motivation has helped me in a few fronts, which is the way in which I build partnerships with people I work with, that I really care about setting other people up for success and being someone that people want to work with. So I learn from them, they learn from me, and we get better outcomes for the business together. I have found that part of that is being someone that people can leverage to translate from technical to nontechnical and nontechnical to technical. So that I do think has been a relative advantage in my role. So while I was often sitting in more technically oriented teams, a lot of the advancement in my career was to roles that required that type of communication fluency.

这种能力源于我能与不同背景的业务伙伴合作，虽然专业领域不同，但我们需要打通隔阂以提升效率。这种训练主要来自我在分析集团的工作经历，当时需要将复杂的经济案件量化分析向法官和陪审团阐释。作为性格内向的独生子女，我通过大量观察向他人学习。在每个岗位上都竭力观察同事行为，思考如何借鉴——无论是想掌握的技能，还是发现与自身风格不匹配的做法。

And it grew out of being able to partner with people across the businesses who didn't necessarily have the same background, but where we needed to really connect spaces so that we could be more effective. And that was something that I think really the training for that came from analysis group, where it was a very quantitative set of work that we had to find a way to communicate to judges and juries for economic cases. So that was something that was trained in other roles and I think I've been able to leverage. I'm a relatively introverted only child, so I observe a lot, which means that I learn from other people. And in each of these roles, I have tried really hard to watch what other people are doing, think about how could I learn something from them, whether it's the thing that I want to be able to do myself or it's the thing that I think, Oh, that doesn't quite fit or feel authentic with my style.

我经常进行这种自省。很幸运在每个岗位都能与优秀人才共事，通过潜移默化的观察学到很多，并将这些经验转化为岗位胜任力。

And I do a lot of that introspection. So I have been surrounded by amazing people in all these roles, and I have a feeling that I learned a lot by osmosis observation, and then have been able to leverage that to be stronger in the roles I was sitting in.

我做了些笔记。您提到的要点包括：专注投入（认真对待工作）、团队协作（成就他人）、技术语言转化能力，以及观察学习能力。能否分享一两个具体案例？比如专注投入是否意味着长时间工作？团队协作中有何实例？

So I took a few notes here. So a few things you mentioned is just dedication, essentially working really hard and taking your work seriously, being part of a team and setting other people up for success, translating complex tech language and problems to non tech people, and then being really good at observing and learning from other people around you. Is there an example or two that you could share of some of these to make it even more concrete for people? Like dedication, is that just like working many hours, being part of a team, anything along those lines to share a story maybe to help people put this into practice.

这是个很好的澄清——专注投入与工作时长无关，而是追求卓越的态度。我会在具体情境中全力以赴，但这不意味着必须加班、牺牲周末或放弃休假。我更注重保持高标准自我要求。

No, and it's a good clarification because the dedication piece really isn't about long working hours. It's more about how much I care about excellence, I guess. So giving it my best in those situations. And that might not mean that I work really wild hours or I work weekends or I'm the one who's willing to sacrifice the vacation. I've actually tried to avoid setting that as an expectation, but more that I hold myself to a very high standard.

举例来说，随着职级提升，常会出现'让别人等待很正常'的预期——无论是会议时间、文件反馈还是承诺事项。但我极力避免这种情况，坚持做到及时响应：收到消息尽快回复，承诺事项按期完成，参加会议绝对准时。

So an example would be, especially as I've gotten more senior in roles, there can be an expectation that it's okay for other people to wait on me. So whether it's like the timing for a meeting or providing input on something or reviewing a document or following through on something I said that I was going to do. And I really try to avoid that, which means that if someone sends me something, I try to be very responsive about it. If I know that I said I'm going to do something, I follow through on it in the timeline that I said I was going to do. If I have a meeting, I try to be on time to that meeting.

这些都是专业投入的表现形式。表面看像是工作狂，实则源于'他人正依赖我'的责任感。关于技术转化能力，近期Netflix推进的直播内容项目就是典型案例——我们本周刚宣布将于2025年初开始承办WWE赛事。这个涉及技术架构与商业决策衔接的项目完美诠释了这种桥梁作用。

And those are all flavors of dedication to the work that show up in, Oh, it seems like Elizabeth really hard, but the motivation factor is other people are relying on me and I want to show up for them. So that's when I say dedication and it's related to the second point around showing up well for the team, those would all be examples of, I feel urgency in responding to people and doing high quality work. For the other parts of technical to non technical, I think a great example is actually a very timely one at Netflix, which is we are making strides to offer live content types. So live events, live TV shows. We announced this week that we're going to be hosting WWE starting later this year and early next year, twenty twenty five.

说起来容易做起来难。我知道有很多娱乐公司都有直播内容。但Netflix一直专注于流媒体内容业务。所以直播对我们来说是全新的领域。这需要我们内容部门与产品技术部门建立紧密的合作关系，因为这背后有一套内容策略。

That is easier said than done. I know that there's a lot of entertainment companies that have live content. But Netflix has really been in the streaming content business. So live content is something new for us. And it's something that's going to require a really close partnership between our content organization and our products and technology organization, because there's a content strategy to it.

这涉及商业策略和技术策略。我工作的重要部分就是：能否通过解释我们将如何解决技术问题来建立内容团队的信心？能否通过理解他们的内容策略来为技术团队的成功创造条件，并明确我们需要满足哪些需求？如果我不能在这种对公司重大投资和联合投入的项目中做好这种'翻译'工作，并帮助合作伙伴取得成功，我就无法胜任目前的职位。

There's a business strategy. There's a technology strategy to it. And a big part of my role is, can I explain how we're going to approach those technical problems in a way that builds confidence with the content team? And can I try to understand their content strategy in a way that sets the technical teams up for success, and we understand what we need to be able to deliver on here in terms of requirements? And I don't think I'd be able to do my current role well if I wasn't able to do that type of translation for something that's gonna be a big bet for the business and something we wanna invest in jointly, and then to set my partners up for success in that.

因此我会竭尽全力确保我们为内容合作伙伴提供优质服务，因为我认为这对Netflix的业务发展最有利。

So I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure we deliver well for my content partners, because I feel like that's what's best for Netflix in the business.

很棒的案例。说到生活类内容，我想到了《爱情盲选》。我记得是为首映还是什么重聚特辑，我们完全被那档节目吸引了，做得真不错。不过那段重聚特辑确实存在一些问题。

Amazing examples. In terms of life content, I think about The Love is Blind. I think it was for premiere or whatever reunion that we got sucked into that show, so good job. And I think there were some issues with that reunion streak.

是的，那大概是不到一年前的事了。失败的美妙之处在于能学到很多。我们收获颇丰，做了详细记录。之后我们成功举办了几场活动，包括去年十月的Netflix杯。

Yeah, that was about a little less than a year ago now. So the amazing thing about failure is you learn a lot. We learned a lot. We've taken notes on it. And we had a couple successful events after that, including the Netflix Cup last October.

我们即将推出一些激动人心的活动。这段经历让我们变得更强大，但也确实暴露出我们正在攻克一个难题。

We've got some exciting events coming up. So I think that's something that strengthened us, but did reveal that we're tackling a hard problem.

没错。《爱情盲选》首映时的推特留言简直笑死人。观众都气疯了。好吧。说到保持高标准这点，我非常欣赏。

Yeah. The Twitter feeds during that Love Is Blind premiere were hilarious. People were pissed. Okay. And then in terms of keeping a high bar for yourself, I love that.

我记得Floodgate的风投家安·默里·科在蒂姆·费里斯的访谈中分享过一个观点：她父亲总是问她'这件事你做到世界级水平了吗？你的作业做到世界级水平了吗？你的钢琴演奏达到世界级水准了吗？'这就是他始终为她设定的标准。我觉得这确实是思考工作和生活的绝佳方式——如果你能做到的话。

I think about a quote that there's a VC, Ann Murray Coe, at Floodgate, and she did this interview with Tim Ferriss, and she shared that her dad always asked her, Are you doing a world class job with this? Are you doing a world class job with your homework? Are you doing a world class job with your piano recital? And that's the bar that he always had for her. And I feel like that's a really good way to think about work and life in general, if you can.

是的。我母亲过去常对我说——可能现在还会说，虽然我年轻时需要更多提醒——最后的5%才是真正关键的5%。这种框架意味着，正是那些额外的努力让事物变得卓越或达到世界级水平。我也喜欢这样鞭策自己，并希望为他人树立好榜样。这尤其符合我擅长的那种企业文化，在那里这种高标准是普遍预期，所以你不会感到孤立无援，否则很容易产生挫败感。

Yeah. My mother used to describe to me, probably still does, though it required more repeating when I was younger, that the last 5% is the 5% that really mattered. And so it is that framing of the thing, the extra effort you put into something to make it world class or to make it excellent. And so I do like to push myself that way, and I hope it sets a good example for other people too. And it's very consistent with, especially the company cultures that I tend to thrive in, where that's the general expectation of the culture, so you don't feel like you're doing it alone, because then I think you can start to feel frustrated by that.

我知道这是Netflix文化的核心部分，稍后我想深入探讨。但首先我很好奇，你如何帮助下属提升这种设定高标准的能力？举个例子，就像我常对产品经理说的：你要营造一种'这事交给我没问题'的气场，让Lenny觉得交办给你的事绝对靠谱。

I know that this is a big part of Netflix culture, and I want to get into it. But before that, I'm curious just what that looks like with people that report to you. How do you help them level up in this skill of having a really high bar? An example I'll give as you think about it, maybe an example is the way I described this to my PMs was you want to have this aura that you've got this. That if you give Lenny something, he's got this.

你会持续跟进，你会闭环处理，你会确保完成。如果实在无法完成，你也会及时告知。这种事务绝不会石沉大海。

He's going to follow-up. He's going to close the loop. He's going to get it done. If he can't get it done, he'll tell me. I feel like this threat will not disappear.

你绝不会搞砸这件事。你有没有总结出什么有效方法，能帮助他人掌握这种技能并理解其重要性？

You won't drop this ball. Is there anything that you've learned as a good way to help someone learn this kind of skill and understand why this is so important?

对于我的下属，我主要通过两方面来培养：首先是以身作则——如果我自己都做不到，凭什么要求他们？我非常严肃地对待这点，我们应遵循相同标准。其次是在未达标时给予反馈。我发现团队成员常常对期望不够明确，而你不明确表达就不能假定他们心知肚明。

It shows up for the people who report to me as one part example setting. So if I don't do it, why would they do it? And I treat that very seriously, that we should all be held to the same standards. And as a second thing, I give feedback when it's not up to the standard. So I think one of the things I've observed, especially with people on my teams, is that the expectations aren't always clear, and you can't assume that they're clear if you don't share them.

当工作未达预期或不够出色时，我会结合两方面处理：既直接具体地反馈差距所在，说明需要哪些改进才能达到我的期望标准；第三点可能最重要——帮助他们弥补差距。举个例子，就像职场常见的场景：一份文档勉强合格...

When something's not meeting expectations or really showing up as excellence, I think it's a combination of both giving the feedback on that and being direct about it and being specific about what would it take to get this to the bar that I'm expecting or to show up in the way that I'm expecting. And then the third and probably most important thing is help them fill that gap. So that would mean Let's take an example. It certainly has happened frequently in many jobs. A document is okay.

情况不太理想。人们很难跟上节奏。本可以更简洁明了。有些地方需要加强。我会给出反馈意见，确保改进，是的，这需要再迭代一轮。

It's not great. It's not gonna be easy for people to follow. It's not as crisp as it could be. There's things that would strengthen it. I can both give the feedback on that to make sure, yes, it's gonna take another round of iteration.

是的，我们得再花一周时间处理这个，暂时无法结项。但我会推动团队达成目标，亲自参与文档修改并提供帮助。我对此非常坚持，这就是我说的以身作则——我们一起解决这个问题。通过这种方式帮助团队提升能力，这样下次他们就能明确标准，并且知道如何获得过往的帮助。我职业生涯中可能经历过上千次这样的情况，当事情需要改进时，我会全身心投入，因为我相信团队之后会变得更好——至少我希望如此。

Yes, we're gonna have to work another week on this and not be done with it, but pushing people to get there and then jumping into the document and helping. So I feel very strongly about, and that's kind of what I mean by setting an example of like, let's work on this together. And then through that, help people up level themselves so the next time around, they know the expectations and they've had help getting there in the past. So that's probably happened a thousand times in my career, where I jump in with both feet because something needs to be better, and I think the teams are better for it afterwards, or I hope they are.

我觉得这个框架非常好，正好呼应你所说的。设定高标准预期，明确我对你的要求。针对差距给出具体反馈，然后帮助他们弥补。可能很多人听到会想：天啊，我不想要一个要求这么高的经理，这压力太大了。

I think that's such a good framework just to kind of mirror back what you said. Set expectations that the bar is gonna be really high, and here's what I'm expecting from you. Give them very specific feedback on where the gap is, and then help them fill that gap. And I think a lot of people may feel this and hear this and are like, oh, man. I I don't want a manager that's, like, this high of an expectation person, and it just feels really stressful.

但我遇到过这样的管理者，正是在他们手下我成长最快——他们设定高标准，然后帮我认清'这些地方你本可以做得更好，我知道你有潜力，回去改进吧'。虽然听起来烦人，但实际上这对职业发展最有帮助。想必你也见过类似效果。

But I've had these managers and I feel like that's when I've learned the most and leveled up the most, is having someone that had really high expectations and then helped me understand, Here's where you're not doing as well as you can. I know you can do better. Go back and work on this. I know that sounds annoying, but I think in practice it ends up helping you most in your career. I imagine you've seen a similar result.

我想是的。不过你该问问我的团队成员，他们可能有不同看法。这是一种参照标准。给予反馈是项艰难技能，尤其当对方已经付出很多努力时。

I think so. I mean, you'd have to ask some of the people on my team. I might look at it differently- It's a reference. They look at it. It's a hard skill because it's not always easy to give feedback, especially if you feel like someone's put a lot of effort into something.

因此我会深思如何传达反馈，让对方感觉我们是同一战线，我是要帮助他们成功而非打击信心。这就是我说的第三点框架：亲自参与帮助，能让人感到'这是个安全空间，主管希望我成功，正在协助我'。我经常在幕后这样做。

And so I give a lot of thought to how I deliver that feedback so it feels like we're on the same team and I'm trying to help them be successful, not to help encourage failure. And that's where I think that third piece of the framework of jumping in to help can make people feel like I'm in a safe space. My manager wants me to be successful. My manager's helping me here. And I do often do that behind the scenes.

所以这可能是另一种方式：我不会在大型会议上当众指出演讲问题，而是事后在安全环境中沟通'这些地方可以改进，下次我们换种思路'。这样既给予对方体面，也让他们更容易消化反馈，避免当众难堪。

So maybe that's another flavor of this, which is I don't do it live in the big meeting in front of all the people where the presentation doesn't go very well. I do it afterwards where it feels like a safer space to say, Here's a way this could have gone better. Let's think about this differently next time. So it gives people a little grace and a little bit of an ability to absorb that feedback without feeling like it's it's kind of on a stage.

当人们听到这些时，可能会想'天哪，这要花我好多时间才能让伊丽莎白满意'。我知道你说过这不一定需要很多时间。对于如何避免过度劳累、减少加班，同时保持高标准和高期望，你有什么建议吗？

Another thing someone may be feeling when they're hearing this is like, Oh my God, this is going take me so many hours to just get it to a place Elizabeth is happy with. And I know you said that this doesn't mean necessarily many hours. Do you have any advice or thoughts on just how to avoid burnout and working all the time, but also keeping this really high bar and high expectations?

这真的与时间无关。我今天早些时候在会议上说过，如果我们对某件事的目标很明确，那么花在文件最后20%润色上的时间可能完全是浪费。以季度业务回顾为例，我们聚在一起讨论的重点应该是：亮点是什么？不足是什么？

It truly is not about time. I even found myself in a meeting earlier today saying, if we're clear in the objectives of something, it might be that the last 20% of polish on the document is a really bad use of time. So if we're gonna come together to talk through Quarterly business review was the example. What were the highlights? What were the lowlights?

本季度我们学到了什么？哪些地方存在分歧？我们做季度业务回顾的目的是坦诚交流对当前进展的看法，就遇到的瓶颈展开辩论，而不是为了准备一份完美无缺的文件。在这种情况下，我的反馈是：我更希望人们把时间花在思考'我们真正需要讨论什么'上。

What were the learnings from the quarter? Where are there places of misalignment? The reason we're doing the quarterly business review is to have a really candid conversation about how we think things are going, to have a debate about things where maybe we're stuck. It's not to have a perfectly polished document for that conversation. So my feedback in that instance would be, I would much rather have someone spend the time thinking about what's the conversation we really wanna have?

我该如何引导讨论？而不是纠结'要不要再花20小时让文件看起来完美无缺'？从这个意义上说，卓越不是指写出完美文件。我可能应该注意不要只用这个例子，关键是我们通过深思熟虑、投入大量时间和反复迭代，最终达成了预期目标。

How do I tee that up? Not, Could I spend another twenty hours to make it look like everything's perfect in this document? And so I think in that sense, it's not just excellence like you wrote the perfect document. I should probably be careful to not use that as the only example, but instead we really got to the outcome we wanted to get to because we were thoughtful about it and we put a lot of energy and time and iteration into making sure we got to

这个结果。这是你因为某人花太多时间润色而给予反馈的例子吗？还是说这是你之前提到的框架金字塔中的期望设定环节？你分享过设定期望、给予具体反馈、帮助填补差距、私下沟通的流程。这个例子属于期望设定，还是属于'你花太多时间在...'的反馈？

that outcome. Is this an example where you gave someone feedback because they spent too much time on the polish? Or is this earlier to give the pyramid of this framework, you kind of shared of set expectations, give specific feedback, help them fill the gap, then do it in private. Is this the expectation setting in this example? Or is this feedback you spend too much time on?

这是期望设定。我新角色中的一项工作是：团队有些既定做法，他们想知道这些做法是否会延续？哪些会改变？需要了解我的期望。所以大家提出这个问题很好，这样我就能明确表示：'如果你在最后20%的文件润色阶段，我宁愿把时间花在这些方面，我希望会议这样进行，让所有人都有收获，而不是感觉只是代表领导做评审'。

This is expectation setting. So one of the things in my new role is that there's some practices that the team has had where they're trying to understand, are we still going to have those practices? What's going to be the same versus different about those things? And get an understanding of my expectations. So it's great that people ask that question so that I can be clear about, Oh, wait, if you're on the last 20% of this polishing the doc, I'd rather spend time over here, and here's how I would like the conversation to go so we all get something out of it instead of it feeling like it's just a leadership reviewer on my behalf.

因此在这个具体情境中，这是提前设定期望，以便为所有人创造成功条件。

So in this specific situation, it was setting expectations ahead of time so that we can set everyone up for success.

太棒了。好的。我们之前一直在围绕这个话题讨论，但这是Netflix文化中非常重要的一部分。简单来说，Netflix拥有非常独特的企业文化。尽管公司已经成立二十五年了，但感觉这种文化被反复提及多次。

Awesome. Okay. So we've kind of been talking around this, but this is an important part of the Netflix culture. So just broadly, Netflix has a really special and unique culture. Even though it's been around for, I think, over twenty five years now, it feels like the culture has come up many times.

最初那份震惊众人的文化宣言问世后，最近又出了本名为《不拘一格》的书。Netflix在保持企业文化方面做得非常出色。在我看来有三个关键要素（可能还有更多）：第一是极高的人才密度和对高绩效者的关注。

There's that initial culture deck that came out that kind of blew everyone's minds. There's a recent book, No Rules Rules, I think it's called. And it feels like Netflix has done a great job at maintaining its culture. And it feels to me there's kind of these three important elements, and maybe there's more. One is very high talent density and a focus on high performers.

第二是坦诚直率的沟通方式。第三是赋予员工自由与责任，废除无用的流程比如休假制度等。我们先深入探讨第一个要素——高人才密度与高绩效导向。问题是：这在Netflix具体是如何体现的？

Two is candor and being really direct. And then three is giving people freedom and responsibility and getting rid of useless processes like vacation time and things like that. So maybe just to dive into that first one of high talent density and this focus on high performance. I guess the question there is just like, how does this actually look? What does this look like in Netflix?

想象一下，部分体现在招聘环节，部分体现在绩效考核。那么为什么这点如此重要？为什么Netflix如此强调这点？当企业拥有如此高的人才密度时会发生什么？

And imagine part of it is hiring, part of it is performance reviews. And then just why is it so important? Why is this such a focus in Netflix? What happens when you have such a high talent density?

这深深植根于Netflix作为一家公司的本质。从某种程度上说，这充分体现了创始人里德·哈斯廷斯的理念。当他创立Netflix并逐步发展公司时，就坚信可以用不同的方式打造一家企业——让员工蓬勃发展、热爱工作、感受到与其他公司截然不同的氛围，不仅体现在人才密度的高质量上，更重要的是追求卓越与成果，让员工从中获得强烈的成就感。这种理念自Netflix创立之初就已根深蒂固。而实现这种人才密度的关键环节无疑在于招聘。

It's just so intrinsic to who Netflix is as a company. And in some ways, it's very reflective of Reed Hastings as founder of Netflix. So when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time, it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places, both in the quality of that talent density, but even more importantly, the excellence and the outcomes, and that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment. So it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days. And a big piece of that talent density is definitely hiring.

那么什么样的人会加入这个团队？但更重要的是，如果没有高人才密度作为基础，我们就无法真正践行包括坦诚沟通、持续学习、追求卓越与进步、自由与责任等文化特质。从某种意义上说，这不是终点，而是里德和管理团队试图构建的终极目标的手段。为此，你必须约束自己去做许多反人性的事——比如给予反馈。

So who are the people coming in and joining the team? But a lot of it is we can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture, including candor, learning, seeking excellence and improvement, freedom and responsibility, if you don't start with high talent density. And so in some ways, it's not the end, it's the means to the end in what Reid and the rest of the leadership team has been trying to build. And so, in order to do that, you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior. And what I mean by that is giving the feedback.

这就涉及到第二个重点：给予反馈，在期望未达成时坦诚沟通，指出改进方向；同时也要能接受这类反馈以保持人才密度。因为没有人是完美无缺地加入Netflix并始终保持完美的。我们都有成长空间。为了维持高标准，你必须愿意进行这种令人不适的、高强度的坦诚对话和反馈交流。

This gets into the second bucket. So giving feedback, being candid around your expectations when they're not being met, what could be better in helping people improve, and be able to receive that type of feedback yourself in order to keep talent density high. Because no one comes to Netflix as a perfect human being and stays a perfect human being the whole time. We all have ways that we could grow and improve. And so in order to keep that bar high, you have to be willing to have those types of very uncomfortable It's an uncomfortable amount of candor and feedback in order to keep that bar high.

另一个关键点在于人类天性不擅长的事情——当某人无法达到标准时，需要及时做出决断。无论是认为对方不适合当前岗位，还是认为Netflix不适合对方，都要明确表达。我们要把这变成最佳实践的一部分，直到能够坦然做出这种决定。这就是我们所说的'留任测试'，它本质上是一种思维框架，确保我们对此负责。具体来说就是自问：如果团队中有人今天来辞职，说有更好的机会，我会全力挽留他们留在Netflix吗？

And then the other piece of it is another thing that doesn't come naturally to humans, which is making a call in pretty timely fashion if someone's not able to meet the bar. And to say either, I don't think the role you're sitting in is the right role, or I don't think that Netflix is the right place for you. And to make that something that is part of best practice, to get to a point where you could make that decision. And that's where we refer to the keeper's test, which is really just a mental framing to make sure we hold ourselves accountable for this. Where if I'm asking myself the question, if this person on my team came to me and said, I'm leaving today, I have a different opportunity and I would like to take it, would I do everything I could to keep them at Netflix?

如果答案是否定的，那么我就该进行那个艰难对话：你是否真的适合这里？岗位是否匹配？如果你说要离开时我反而感到一丝轻松。这个留任测试之所以有用，是因为没人愿意主动这么想。对某人说'我觉得你不合适'实在太难了。

If not, then I should be having that tough conversation about, should you really be here? Are you in the right role? If I might be a little bit relieved if you said you were leaving. And the reason the keeper test in that question is useful is because no one wants to think that way. It's very hard to say to someone, I think this isn't the right fit.

我认为你应该离开公司。因此我们需要引入这些反思来促成这种行为。同时我们也希望达成这样的状态：当你进行艰难对话时，对方不会感到意外。这说来容易做来难。但只有当你持续给予反馈，才能自然过渡到'我认为Netflix和你彼此不适合'这样的对话。

I think you should move on from the company. So we have to introduce some of those reflections in order to encourage the behavior. And we also then wanna get to a place where when you're having that tough conversation, people aren't surprised by it. That is easier said than done. But you can only get to that conversation around, I don't think Netflix and you are the right fit for one another if you've been giving feedback along the way.

因此在最理想状态下，这应该是实践中达成的双向共识。当然不会总是这么顺利，毕竟我们都是人。但这一切都是为了确保我们真正践行自诩的文化行为准则。

And so it feels like in its most ideal state, it's a mutual observation in practice. It's not always that smooth. Obviously, we are humans. But that all feeds on itself in order to make sure that we're really holding ourselves to what we say are our behavioral norms as part of the culture.

这个机制如何落地？是仅作为思维模型存在？还是应该每季度作为绩效评估的一部分来执行？这个网络实际上是如何运作的？

How is that operationalized? Is that just like a mental model that you should have in mind? Or is it like every quarter you should go through this exercise as a part of the performance review process? How does that actually operationalize the network?

这绝对是思维模型。当我们与管理层讨论'作为Netflix经理意味着什么'时，就意味着你要经常对团队成员进行这种自问。经常有人问我：'我通过你的留任测试了吗？'所以它自然成为经理定期一对一沟通的内容。这其实就是换种方式问：'我达到你的期望了吗？'

It's definitely a mental model. So when we talk to managers about what does it mean to be a manager at Netflix, it would mean you should be with some frequency asking yourself this about the people on your team. People ask me frequently, Am I passing your keeper test? So it becomes part of a regular manager direct report one on one. And it is just another way of saying, Am I meeting your expectations?

哪些方面做得好？哪些需要改进？你对事情有什么看法？有时这会是很尴尬的对话。在忙于讨论项目、交付物或突发事件时，抽时间退一步问：'我做得怎么样？'

What's going well? What's not going well? How are you thinking about things? And that can sometimes be a very awkward conversation to have. So in the middle of a lot of, We have to talk about this project or that deliverable or this thing that's happening, to take the time to step back and just say, How am I doing?

有时会感觉压力很大。虽然'Keeper测试'听起来是个很沉重的概念，但它能让我们更轻松地定期进行这类对话。我们确实将其付诸实践。你提到的一点，我要澄清的是，我们没有绩效考核。

Can feel loaded sometimes. And the Keeper test, while it feels like a very heavy concept, creates a lightness around being able to have that conversation regularly. So we do operationalize it. A point that you made, and I'll just clarify, we don't have performance reviews.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

所以我们没有像许多其他公司那样，设立一个评估工作进展的常规流程。我们确实有年度360度反馈机制，你可以向很多人征求并接收反馈，但这些反馈不会作为某种考核依据。它的价值在于反馈本身，确保我们保持这种互动习惯。我们还有年度薪酬调整周期，会评估员工表现，因此你会把绩效作为晋升和调薪的考量因素。但这样一来，绩效就必须融入日常工作和运营节奏中，因为我们没有专门设立让它浮出水面的流程。

So we don't have a practice that a lot of other companies do where we would think about reflecting on a rating of how things are going. We do have an annual cycle of three sixty feedback, where you request and receive feedback from a lot of people, but it's not an input to some output. It's just for the value of the feedback and to make sure we're keeping that muscle. And we have an annual compensation cycle where we reflect on how are people doing, and so you think about performance as part of both promotions compensation. But in that way, it has to be part of the day to day and part of the operating rhythm because we don't create a process where that would come to the surface.

有意思。我之前不知道这点。所以理念是持续性的，就像...这正是很多人梦寐以求的——没有绩效考核。

Interesting. I didn't know that. So the idea there is just ongoing, like the whole. It's what many people dream of. No performance reviews.

我们会给你持续、实时的反馈，不需要等半年。感觉大家都在讨论这种做法，但真正实施的很少。但这就是你们的运作方式。

We'll give you ongoing, real time feedback. We don't have to wait six months. I feel like people talk about this, but rarely do this. But that's how you guys operate.

在理想状态下。

In the ideal.

对，在理想状态下。

In the ideal, yeah.

实践，就像你必须不断提醒自己，这是我们的理想状态，因为很容易依赖年度360度评估周期。突然间，我确实收到了约300条反馈。其中一些涉及半年前发生的事情，我不禁想，要是当时有人告诉我这些就好了。那样才更符合Netflix的文化，所以我们必须推动自己这样做。但没错，如果运作良好，这种反馈会非常及时且直接。

Practice, it's like you have to keep reminding yourself, This is our ideal, because it's really easy to rely on the annual three sixty cycle. And all of a sudden, might get I do get about 300 pieces of feedback. And some of those things are around things that happened six months ago, and I think, Oh, I wish you had told me this at the time. That would have been more living the Netflix culture, so we have to push ourselves to do it that way. But yeah, that is, if working well, it's very timely, direct feedback.

360度评估周期有点像年度盘点：让我全面了解情况，提炼出一些主题，为与管理层的对话做好准备。这确实消除了每半年进行一次绩效评估这类拐杖式的依赖。

The three sixty cycle is sort of the annual check-in on, Let me get the full picture. Let me be able to distill some themes. Let me tee it up for a conversation with my manager. And then does remove the sort of crutch of an every six month performance review or something like that.

当你谈到有人经常问你'我通过你的留任测试了吗'这个例子时，让我感觉对方非常紧张。他们就像在问'我通过留任测试了吗？'这让我觉得可能形成一种充满压力和焦虑的文化，就像《饥饿游戏》那种'我必须竞争、担忧，随时可能被淘汰'的心态。我猜解决之道部分在于文化调整。

When you talked about this example of someone asking you often, Am I meeting your keeper test? It makes me feel like someone's just super nervous. They're like, Am I passing your keeper test? It makes me feel like it could create a culture of just a lot of stress and worry and this hunger games mentality of I got to compete and worry and I might die or get fired any day. I'm guessing the solution to that is partly cultural.

这就是我们的工作方式。你不需要时刻紧张，但如果没通过留任测试就可能被解雇。如何避免这种'随时可能被开除、可能达不到标准'的持续焦虑？

This is just the way we work. You don't need to stress all the time, but you may be let go if you're not meeting this keeper test. How do you avoid this constant worry that you might be fired any day and that you may not be hitting the bar?

就我个人经验而言，进行这些对话反而让我比不进行时更安心。在很多岗位上，我不确定自己表现如何或哪些方面可以改进，也不知道如何获取这些信息，这比把这类对话作为文化常态更让我感到压力、紧张和危机感。我认为真正令人焦虑的——我自己也深有体会——是Netflix对卓越的高标准。如果你做得好，周围都是优秀人才，这会让人产生'相比他人我的表现足够好吗'的疑问。

In my personal experience, I have felt a lot more at ease by having these conversations than by not having them. So in many roles I've had, I haven't been sure how I was doing or things I could be doing better on, and I didn't quite know how to get that information, and that made me feel much more stressed or nervous or at risk than having it be part of the culture to have those conversations. So the thing that I think can be nerve racking, and I feel it myself, is the high bar for excellence at Netflix. And you're surrounded by, if we're doing this well, you're surrounded by amazing people. And that can feed a sense of, am I doing well enough compared to how everyone else is doing?

我知道标准很高。多数情况下这是积极的驱动力，但某种程度上也会让人紧张。这时了解我们期望进行这些对话就很有帮助，能让你稍微放松些——是的，期望很高，但经理说我做得很好；或者经理指出不足时，也会给出具体的改进建议。我认为知情总比不知情好。

And I know the bar's high. For the most part, that can drive people in a good way, but in some ways it makes people nervous. And that's where I think it's helpful to know we expect to have these conversations so you can just kind of let your shoulders relax a little bit of, Yes, the expectations are high, but my manager says, I'm doing a great job. Or my manager says, I'm not doing a great job, but they gave me concrete things that I could do better. And so I think knowing is better than not.

从这个角度看，正是这种文化加上围绕绩效的对话，我希望能够缓解部分压力。但我确实常听到，没有这种对话时人们会感到不安。

And so in that sense, it's the culture combined with the conversations around performance, I hope take a little bit of that stress out of it. But I've certainly heard it a lot that without that conversation, people can be nervous.

这个观点非常精辟，这个例子也特别好，我觉得每家公司都希望设定高标准，只聘用顶尖人才，并为每位员工保持高标准。我很好奇，虽然这个话题足够做一期播客或写本书了，但就招聘优秀人才和保持卓越标准而言，您能否分享些对其他公司招聘有帮助的建议？比如如何识别顶尖人才并维持高标准？我知道你们提供行业顶薪，这确实是Netflix的特色之一——我们就是愿意给人才高薪。

That's such a good point and such a good example that I feel like every company wants to have a high bar and have only high performers and keep the bar really high for every person they hire. I'm curious. I know this could be its own podcast and book, but just in terms of hiring people that are amazing and keeping this bar of excellence, is there anything you can point out that might be helpful to other companies hiring to help identify amazing people and make sure that bar stays high? One thing I know is you guys pay top market for salary. I think that's one unique thing about Netflix is we just pay people.

所以这可能部分回答了问题，但您还有什么建议能帮助人们保持人才的高标准呢？

So maybe that's part of this answer, but just what advice do you have for people to keep a really high bar in their talent?

关于薪酬方面，我们实行的是'个人市场顶薪'策略，即我们希望薪酬具有高度竞争力，但不愿让薪酬成为束缚人才的金手铐。Netflix设定市场标准而非被动跟随，提供极具竞争力的薪酬。这对吸引和留住人才很重要，也是我们文化的核心部分。但更重要的是，我们不希望仅靠薪酬吸引人才，而是希望人们真正渴望加入Netflix，同时我们也能评估他们能否在这里茁壮成长。在这种背景下，我们的招聘理念是：虽然会提供极具竞争力的薪酬，但更看重候选人是否能帮助我们识别需要解决的关键问题，或为现有问题提供创新解决方案。

Yeah. I mean, on the compensation point, we pay what we call personal top of market, meaning we wanna be highly competitive in the pay, but we don't want pay to be like the golden cuffs of Netflix sets market rather than paying people a strongly competitive compensation. So I think that that's important for attracting and retaining talent and has been a big part of the culture. But almost more importantly, we hope we don't have to rely on that to want people to wanna be at Netflix or for us to be able to assess whether people are gonna thrive at Netflix. And the way that I've thought about hiring with that context is we know we're gonna offer you very highly competitive compensation, but are you gonna come to Netflix and help us identify the right problems to solve or new ways to solve existing problems.

这与常规招聘思路不同，尤其在大规模招聘时。传统做法是看候选人是否具备某些技能，打勾确认后就把他们放在固定岗位上完成既定工作。我知道这么说过于简化，实际上很多公司也不这么做。但在Netflix，我们努力寻找能带来新视角、真正增强团队实力的人才。

And that's a different way of hiring than you might think about, especially at scale where you're saying, Does this person have this skill, this skill, this skill? Check, gonna fit in this box and they're gonna deliver this work that I need them to do. I'm being intentionally simplistic. I recognize a lot of people don't hire actually that way. But at Netflix, we try really hard to say, We're looking for the new perspective or the person who's actually gonna make us stronger as a team.

因此我们更关注附加技能和增值视角，寻找能推动我们思维进步的人才。这有助于保持人才密度，因为你不断引入能提升团队水平的人。所以面试问题也会不同：我们既要评估基本能力，更要寻找能使团队更卓越的特质。想象一下由这些优秀人才组成的梦幻团队能创造什么？

So thinking about additive skills, additive perspectives, people who are gonna push our thinking on something. And that tends to help us with thinking about talent density because you're constantly introducing people to the team who up level. So then the questions you have to ask in an interview might be different because, yes, we're trying to assess, do you have the baseline skills to be successful here? But we're also looking for the things that make people exceptional or even stronger than the team we've got. And then you think about making the magical teams comprised of all those amazing minds and what can you get out of that?

这才是实践中的人才密度。

And that feels more the talent density in practice.

明白了。所以核心建议是：不要只找优秀人才，要找能提升整个团队标准、带来全新...是的，这是个绝佳的角度

Got it. So the advice there essentially is don't look for someone just simply great. Look for someone that raises the bar for the whole team, brings in a whole Yes. New a great way

说出来吧。是的。

to say it. Yeah.

我认为这个持续保持卓越的理念最棒的地方在于，优秀的人才总想与优秀的人共事。一旦团队中出现能力不足的人，而公司又对此放任不管，就会拖累整个团队，因为大家会觉得'反正这样也能混过去'。但当你明确表示我们只要最优秀的人才、只雇佣最优秀的人、只保留最优秀的人时，就能留住这些顶尖人才。我想这也是战略的一部分。

I think what's great about this idea of just maintaining excellence consistently is that the best people want to work with the best people. And as soon as there's one person that sucks and the company allows for that, it just brings everyone down because they know, hey, we can be okay. We'll stick or no one's going to do anything about it. And when you make it clear, we only want the best and only hire the best and only keep the best, it keeps the best there. I imagine that's part of the strategy.

这绝对是目标。我认为要明白团队中存在能力缺口或行为问题的人，对其他成员会产生极大的负面影响。所以这是个代价问题。

It's definitely the goal. And I think understanding that having gaps in the team and people's skill sets or their behavior can be really toxic for other people on the team. So it's a cost.

本期节目由Xplo赞助播出，这款产品将彻底改变客户分析和数据报告方式。您的用户是否渴望在您的产品中获得更多仪表板、报告和分析功能？您是否厌倦了自己构建这些功能？作为产品负责人，您可能已将这些需求列入路线图，但优先排序确实令人头疼。从零开始构建分析系统可能耗时耗力且充满挑战。

This episode is brought to you by Xplo, a game changer for customer facing analytics and data reporting. Are your users craving more dashboards, reports, and analytics within your product? Are you tired of trying to build it yourself? As a product leader, you probably have these requests in your roadmap, but the struggle to prioritize them is real. Building analytics from scratch can be time consuming, expensive, and a really challenging process.

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The best part? Your end users can use Xplo's AI features for their own report and dashboard generation, eliminating customer data requests for your support team. Build and embed a fully white labeled analytics experience in days. Try it for free at xplo.co/leni That's expl0.c0/leni. So I asked on Twitter what questions to ask you, and there's a great question that came in from Non Yu.

他是Linear的产品负责人。他问：Netflix有哪些做法是其他公司不应该尝试的，因为他们的 talent level（人才水平）比其他公司高得多？

He's the head of product for Linear. And he asks, what practices does Netflix do that other companies should not attempt to do because their talent level is so much higher than other companies?

简而言之，这就是自由与责任。让我详细解释一下。这是个好问题，也与我之前所说的相关——人才密度是我们许多其他运营方式的前提。如果我们想创造一个工作环境，不对人们解决问题的方式或他们能处理的问题范围设限，前提是这些工作对业务有重大影响。

That is freedom and responsibility in a nutshell. So let me explain that. It's a good question. And it's kind of related to what I was saying earlier, that talent density is a prerequisite for a lot of the other ways we operate. So if we want to create a work environment where we are not prescriptive about how people solve problems or the scope of problems that they could tackle, assuming they're highly impactful for the business.

我们在这类工作中没有太多流程束缚。想象一下能够对我们的工程系统进行重大创新，或引入思考指标与实验的新方法。我们之所以能实现这些，是因为给予人们探索、质疑和尝试解决方案的自由与空间。我认为，如果没有高人才密度，这种做法即使不是危险的，也会非常困难。这绝不是自上而下、按部就班的机械流程。

And we don't have a lot of process around that work. So think about being able to make large innovations to our engineering systems or introducing new ways to think about metrics and experimentation. We get a lot of those things because we give people the freedom and the space to explore and question things and experiment in a way with solutions. And I think that that would be very hard, if not dangerous, if we didn't have a high talent density. It's really not a top down, do A, then B, then C.

甚至在我们的规划流程或优先级思考方式中，团队各个层级都有充分的贡献空间——这同样需要人才密度。此外，如果没有严格的护栏来约束用户体验或业务相关方体验，就必须拥有卓越的人才。我们确实赋予员工在这些事项上的重大责任。因此，我认为减少流程和条条框框的前提是：我们拥有不仅聪明、更具卓越判断力的优秀人才。

Even in how we go through some of our planning processes or thinking about how we think about priorities, there is a lot of room for contribution across all levels of the team, and that requires talent density. And then there's things like, you have to have amazing people if you're not gonna have really strict guardrails that would influence the consumer experience or business stakeholders' experience. And we do give people a lot of responsibility on those things. So I think the lack of process and prescriptiveness is all hinging on. We've got amazing people who are smart, but even better have strong judgment.

这就像创业导师常给的建议：雇佣优秀人才，放手让他们工作——但现实中往往行不通。能否举例说明这种自由催生了哪些成果？比如诞生的产品、功能、创意，或是你们没有而其他公司常见的政策流程？我知道你们没有固定休假制度，应该是无限休假吧？现在还是这样吗？

This is kind of what you always hear from people giving founders advice is just hire amazing people, get out of their way, and let them do their job, which is often not a successful experience. What are examples that come either things that came out of this freedom, I don't know, products or features or ideas that came out of this, or policies or processes you don't have that everyone else might have. I know there's no vacation time. There's unlimited vacation time, I assume. Is that still a thing?

无限休假？好的，明白了。

Unlimited vacation time? Okay, cool.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。你还提到没有绩效考核。那么能否从正反两面举例——这种自由催生了什么特别成果？或是你们缺少哪些会让外人惊讶的流程、框架或体系？

All right. Great. And then no performance reviews, you talked about that. So I guess in either direction, like, is there an example of something that came out of this freedom or some process that would surprise people that you don't have or a framework or system?

我们能够实现这些成就——我将向我的团队讲述我们在内容分发网络、编码技术、发现与个性化推荐方面的创新。这些创新并非源于某位领导说'我认为这是重点'，而往往是由具有创新想法的个人贡献者推动的。Netflix的许多成功都源于为团队成员创造发挥空间，因此可能有数千个产品功能等创新成果都源自这种空间创造。

We've been able to deliver I'll speak to my own team around innovations in our content delivery network, or innovations in encoding, or innovations in discovery and personalization. Were not driven by some leader saying, I think this is a priority. They were driven in many cases by individual contributors who had great ideas for innovation. So a lot of the stuff that Netflix has succeeded in came from creating space for people on the team. So there's probably thousands of examples of product features and things like that that came out of creating this space.

现在的关键在于找到平衡点，让我们能在这种规模下高效运作，同时不扼杀那种文化核心的独特魅力。

And right now, the trick is finding the sweet spot so that we can operate efficiently at this type of scale without snuffing out some of that, what was kind of the core beauty of the culture.

关于文化最后问一个问题。我们讨论过坦诚沟通，我很好奇您最近是否遇到过什么典型案例，能让人真正理解'坦诚文化'的含义——比如某个让您感叹'原来这就是你们说的坦诚文化'的具体事例。

Maybe a last question around just the culture. We talked about candor a bit. I'm just curious if there's an example that comes to mind of an example of candor that you recently saw or had to be the candid person that might be interesting to share where it's like, oh, wow, that's what you mean when you say a culture of candor.

我想到几个例子。作为透明型领导者，我习惯自由公开地分享信息。我们的文化强调'提供背景而非控制'，因此我的职责就是确保大家掌握工作所需的背景信息。实践中，我会在领导会议中做记录并全员共享，有时会包含对现存问题或待解决难题的坦诚反思。

There's a couple of things that come to mind. I am generally a transparent leader, meaning I share information freely and openly. It's part of the culture to context, not control, which means part of my job is to make sure that people have the context they need to do their jobs well. And in practice, that means I take notes in leadership meetings, and I share those notes with the whole organization. Sometimes it includes candor around reflections on things that aren't going well or problems we need to solve.

有时只是让员工知道'领导层在讨论这些'，使他们把握重点方向。这种透明度在其他地方很少见，我认为这也是坦诚文化的一种体现。虽然无法分享所有细节，但我会有意识地突破常规边界，让团队感知公司动态和我的思考。另一个例子是：直到两年前，Netflix的个人贡献者都没有职级划分。

Sometimes it's just letting people know, Here's what leadership's talking about, so that they have a sense of what's top of mind. But it's a version of transparency that I feel strongly about, doesn't exist a lot of other places. And I think it's a version of candor too, in being able to share. I can't really share every detail of everything that we're talking about, but I do try to share things that probably push the boundary a little bit in the team feeling like they understand what's happening across the company and what I'm thinking about. And then there's a second example that comes to mind, which is until two years ago, individual contributors didn't have levels at Netflix.

所有工程师都统称高级工程师，数据科学家也是同样，我们没有职级体系。差不多正好两年前我们引入了IC职级制度，这是非常重大的变革，因为原先的模式被视为某种神圣传统。很多人加入Netflix正是因为我们没有这套体系，也没有晋升流程。

So all engineers were just senior engineers. All data scientists were senior data scientists, and we did not have a leveling system. We introduced IC Levels two years ago, almost exactly, and it was a big, big, big shift because it was seen as something that was sort of sacred. A lot of people came to Netflix because we didn't have it. We didn't have process around promotions.

这或许也是我们从不做绩效考核的原因——毕竟晋升本就不在考虑范围内。这种自由让员工无需纠结层级结构。但当组织达到一定规模时，我们需要某种框架来讨论团队组建：什么时候需要三十年经验的专家？什么时候可以启用应届毕业生？

This is probably part of why we never had performance reviews because promotions really weren't at play. And it gave people a sense of freedom of not having to worry about that type of structure. But when you get to a scale of an organization, we needed some type of scaffolding to say, We want to talk about how we compose teams. When do we need the person who has thirty years of experience? When do we want to have a new grad?

因为这是工作所需。我们当时缺乏描述它的语言。所以我几年前引入了'级别'体系，经历了一段相当起伏的变化过程，这是我唯一能形容其进展的方式。

Because that's what the work requires. We didn't have a language for it. So I introduced Levels a couple years ago, and we had quite a change rollercoaster, is the only way I can describe how it went.

这个说法很贴切。

That's a good phrase.

是的，那感觉就像在滚筒烘干机里翻滚了几个月。于是我们团队深入讨论了这个问题。这为最近一个关于坦诚的例子提供了背景——我们进行了一次关于IC级别实施情况的复盘回顾。通常在很多企业文化中，人们可能会说'我们已经度过了那个变革阶段'。

I Yeah, it was sort of like being in the tumble dry machine for a few months. And so really talking through it with the team. That's just context and backdrop for an example of candor recently, which is we had kind of a postmortem or a retro on how has it gone with IC levels. So it's kind of like Wells, not Wells. I would normally think, in a lot of cultures, would be like, Well, we got past that change.

我们正在经历这场变革。不要回避反思，因为这重新引发了早期的一些争议，而我的看法有所不同。我认为这是个很好的坦诚案例：这对我们是个重大变革，并非所有环节都完美，在Netflix实施级别体系方面我们还有很多改进空间。

We're living that change. Don't reflect on it, because that kind of opened some of that early debate, and I felt differently about it. I think it's a good example of being candid about this was a big change for us. It hasn't all gone perfectly. There's a lot that we can do better in how we implement levels at Netflix.

我宁愿分享这些实情，也不愿假装一切顺利、所有目标都已达成。我试图构建这类案例，因为这种坦诚和反思确实有助于在团队中建立共同体意识和信任感。

And I would rather share that information than pretend it's all gone swimmingly and we achieved every objective. So I try to build examples like that because I do think that level of candor and reflection helps build a sense of community and trust across the team.

这个例子太棒了。顺着这个话题，Netflix早年创新的'自由与责任'文化中，有个叫'混沌猴子'的概念——一个在基础设施上随机终止进程的程序，通过制造故障来测试系统稳定性。现在这个机制还存在吗？还有'混沌猴子'在服务器上跑动吗？

That's an awesome example. Kind of along the lines of that, but also this category of freedom and responsibility, something Netflix innovated long ago, and I'm curious if this is still a thing, is this idea of Chaos Monkeys, which essentially are a program that runs on your infrastructure that just kills random processes and things and just to see what breaks make sure things are stable when things actually start falling apart. Is Chaos Monkeys is that what it's still was that what it's called? And then is that still a thing? Is there still some Chaos Monkeys running around the the servers?

不是无节制的混沌猴子，不是的。考虑到我们对用户体验肩负的责任（说到自由与责任），我们不会随意制造故障。不过确实会进行大量弹性测试实验，这意味着会引入一些不确定A方案是否优于B方案的情况。这类测试在工程系统中确实是大规模进行的。

Not unbridled chaos monkeys, no. Okay. It contains chaos No, we carry too much responsibility, speaking of freedom and responsibility, for the member experience to inject pain. Though we do do a lot of experiments to test resilience, and that does probably mean injecting things that we're not quite sure whether A is better than B. And so that happens across engineering systems really at scale.

但这并非为了纯粹的混乱，而是为了有目的的学习，这样我们就能避免犯更大的错误。当我们进入云游戏等新领域时，我们现在推出了测试版。直播会是另一个例子。我们确实在刻意寻找低调的测试场景，以便在不损害用户体验的前提下，测试系统能力的边界。

But it's not for pure chaos. It's for intentional learning, and so we can avoid making bigger mistakes. And then as we go into new efforts like cloud games, we have a beta that's out now. Live would be another example. We do try to come up with intentionally low profile examples where we can test the bounds of our systems in a way that's unlikely to damage the member experience.

这更像是精心设计而非随机行为。我们在几个领域实施这种做法，这主要像是良好的工程实践，以便当真正关键时刻来临、我们要全面测试系统时，能确认它们是否能如预期般运行？

But that's less randomness more by design. And so we're doing that in a few places that feels mostly like good engineering practice, so we can understand when it's really showtime and we're gonna really test our systems, will they be able to perform like we want them to?

安息吧，混沌猴。

RIP, Chaos Monkey.

是啊。

Yeah.

顺着数据这个话题——数据本身始终是Netflix的核心。据我理解，数据团队与洞察团队的组织方式，是Netflix如此成功的原因之一。这也是你在调任新职前领导的团队。能否谈谈这些团队的组织架构及其高效的原因？

Kind of along these lines of data, something that So data itself has always been at the heart of Netflix. And my understanding is the way the data team and the insights team is structured has been one of the reasons Netflix has been so successful. And that's the team you led before you moved into this new role. Can you just talk about how these teams are structured and why this structure is so effective?

是的。我确实认为它很特别。这种架构并不常见，我可以解释原因。以Netflix现在的规模，数据导向的团队通常会被嵌入业务其他部门——比如广告或游戏等业务线，或是按职能划分，将数据工程师、数据科学家、分析工程师与消费者研究员分开。

Yeah. I certainly like to think of it as being special. It's unusual, I can explain why. So at the scale of company that Netflix now is, very often data oriented teams are embedded in other parts of the business. So it could either be they're embedded in a business line like ads or games, or they are organized more functionally, separating data engineers from data scientists, from analytics engineers, from consumer researchers.

而我们抵制了这种模式，保留了集中化的团队架构。这个团队既涵盖我刚提到的所有职能类型，又能从团队内部支持几乎所有业务领域。我理解为何许多公司放弃这种模式——因为这确实需要非凡的协作能力，毕竟解决数据问题的人员并不向依赖他们的团队汇报。但我们获得的优势是能专注于职能专长：我们是否真是全球顶尖的数据工程师和科学家？如何从职能和技术层面持续精进？

And we've resisted that and kept a centralized team that is both functionally diverse, so across all those types of functions that I just described, and works on nearly every area of the business from within the team. And I sort of understand why a lot of companies move away from this because it really does require basically extraordinary partnership, that we would have people working on data problems that don't report into the teams that are relying on them. But the benefit we get is we get to think about our functional expertise. So are we really world's best data engineers, world's best data scientists? And how do we continue to be ever better from a functional and technical perspective?

它为员工提供了更好的职业发展路径，因为团队间有更多流动机会。这支团队具备解决各类问题的专业能力，我认为这在一定程度上促进了不同想法的交叉融合。更重要的是让我们能够保持客观——我们的职责不是用数据讲述别人想听的故事，也不是解决别人认为重要的问题，这可能是最关键的一点。

It gives people better career paths because there's more mobility across the teams. It feels like a team that has a functional expertise with a lot of different problems to solve. And so I think it enables more cross pollination of ideas in a way. And it also allows us to be really objective. That is probably the most important thing that our job is not to tell the story that someone wants to hear with the data or to solve the problem that someone thinks is most important.

这让我们能够保持自己的观点独立性。我认为这提升了整个组织的水平，因为这意味着我们能够成为真相讲述者，或者以另一种组织架构下难以实现的方式保持求知欲。当然我们也要平衡这一点，既要成为优秀的合作伙伴，兑现我们共同认可的重点事项，灵活安排时间投入，但同时也赋予了我们超越这些的自主权和责任感。我看到团队对此非常认真，比如我们如何将数据引入多个领域——包括与工程团队在数据相关主题上的合作，或与内容团队的合作——如果没有这个作为卓越中心的核心理念，这些可能都无法实现。

It's for us to have our own perspective about things. And I think that that uplevels the whole organization because it means that we're able to be truth tellers or to be curious in a way that might not fit if we had a different organizational structure. We have to balance that with be a good partner, deliver on the things we agreed were priorities, be flexible with how we're spending our time, but it gives us agency and responsibility beyond that. And I feel like the team takes that very seriously. So I've seen examples of that in how we bring data to a lot of spaces, including how we partner with engineering on data related topics, or how we partner with content, then I'm not sure we would have gotten to if not for having that kernel that's sort of a center of excellence around it.

就是数据和洞察部门？这是你之前负责的团队对吧？‘洞察’是指用户研究吗？还是说这实际上是个什么职能？

And it's data and insights. That was the team that you ran. Insights, is that describing user research or what is that a function actually?

数据和洞察部门包含一个消费者洞察团队，实际上涵盖多种研究类型。某种程度上‘消费者’这个称呼都不太准确，因为团队中有部分专门从事内部研究，比如针对影视制作工具和产品的研究，这更偏向用户研究而非消费者研究。而团队中面向消费者的部分，工作范围从内容试映（确保作品上线前成为最佳版本）到传统用户体验研究（比如如何优化内容发现体验或提升无障碍功能）。这个团队的业务范围是全球性的。

So part of data and insights is a consumer insights team that includes a lot of different flavors of research, really. So in some ways, consumer is even a misnomer because there's parts of the team that do internal research, for example, on tools and products for our studio productions. So that's more of a user research oriented versus consumer. And then the parts of that team that are consumer oriented do things all the way from content screenings to make titles the best version of themselves before they're on the service, to more traditional UX research to think about how can we deliver the best title discovery experience, or how can we think about things that improve accessibility. And then that team has a global remit.

此外还有更侧重本地或区域市场、理解消费者娱乐需求的团队。大约两年前，消费者洞察团队与一个曾用名（现在仍被非正式称呼）为‘数据科学与工程短发组’的团队合并成立了现在的数据和洞察部门。这种架构很独特，真正形成了全栈式数据与研究能力。比如我们可以综合态度研究（定性与定量）、行为研究（数据科学与分析端）来解决‘如何以最佳方式呈现推荐内容’这类问题。

So there's also teams that are more local or regional expertise understanding consumer needs and entertainment. So consumer insights and a team formerly known as, still kind of known as as a shorthair in data science and engineering, combined together to create data and insights probably about two years ago. That's another piece that's unusual. It becomes truly a full stack data and research expertise. And so we could tackle a problem like, what's the right way to think about recommendations and how best to surface them in a way that combines attitudinal research, qualitative and quantitative with behavioral research on more of the data science, data engineering, and analytics side.

这真的很酷，因为通常用户研究很少被划归数据部门。我觉得这或许能解决用户研究团队常遇到的质疑——比如‘你们整天在干嘛？就这些零散证据？’。如果同属一个部门，会大幅提升可信度，避免出现‘数据组说一套，用户研究组说另一套’的矛盾。

It's super cool because I think it's really rare that what people think of as user research is within the data org. And I think that might be a solution to some of the backlash a lot of user research teams get where they're like, I don't know, what are you guys doing? All this anecdotal evidence. If it's under the same org, I feel like that leads to a lot more credibility and avoid this like, Oh, data's telling me this thing. This user research team is telling me this thing.

我们该怎么办？

What should we do?

是的，我是说消费者洞察对我来说是比较新的团队。我既没有领导这类团队的背景，也没有接受过相关个人培训，但他们对于确保我们保持以会员为中心至关重要。我很喜欢看团队协作解决问题，因为我们在内部将其视为一种超能力——整合这些技能组合。我认为Netflix的消费者洞察团队在某个专业领域已经建立了很高的可信度，而我们通过将其与其他职能专长结合，将其提升到了新高度。

Yeah. I mean, Consumer insights is one of the newer teams for me. It wasn't in my background to lead a team like that and not in my individual training, but they are critical for making sure we keep a member orientation on things. And I have loved to watch the teams collaborate on problems because we talk about it as a superpower internally in combining those skill sets. So I think the consumer insights team at Netflix has had a lot of credibility in a certain area of expertise, and we took it to the next level by combining it with other of the functional expertise.

所以并非每个问题领域都需要这样，我们尽量避免过度强调协作，认为必须处处合作，因为这会形成错误的预期。但我们会在真正受益的领域充分发挥协作优势。是的，这种方式效果非常好。

So it's not required in every problem space, so we try not to overdo it and say we need to be collaborating everywhere because that just feels like the wrong expectation, but we try to make the most of it in spaces where we really benefit. So, yeah, it's it's worked out really well.

太棒了。好的，在我们进入激动人心的闪电问答环节前，我还有两个问题要问——据小道消息，这两项都是你非常擅长的技能。其一是你虽然职位越来越高，却始终有意识地与公司内各个团队和个人保持密切联系。我很好奇你是如何做到的？具体是如何实践这种与基层团队和一线工作者保持紧密联系的技能？

Awesome. Okay. I'm gonna ask two more questions before we get to our very exciting lightning round, and they're both skills that little birdies have told me you're very good at. One is that you are very intentional and thoughtful about staying close to individual teams and individuals within the company, even though you're higher and higher in the org. I'm curious how you do that, how you actually practice this skill of staying really close to teams kind of at the bottom of the ladder and individuals that are working on things on the ground, basically?

很大程度上取决于我如何分配时间，并努力保留与人交流的机会。比如我至今仍保持双周办公时间，人们可以预约时段。虽然20分钟一个时段有点像快速约会，但能让我接触很多人，了解他们的工作重点。这些时段往往提前几个月就被约满，这确实是个保持联系的好机会。

A lot of it is how I spend my time and fighting to preserve opportunities to connect with people. So examples would be, I still have biweekly office hours. People sign up for slots. And it can be a little like speed dating through twenty minute slots, but I get to meet a whole bunch of people and hear about work, hear what's top of mind. People book them out many months ahead, and it's just an opportunity to stay in touch.

此外我会举办不同规模的'问我任何事'会议，根据想要的亲密度调整团队规模。但真的什么问题都可以问，这是大家了解真实的我、向我提问的机会，我也会坦诚回答能回答或不能回答的问题。这些方式帮助我保持连接，但关键都在于主动预留时间。随着角色变化，我发现如果不优先安排这些，联系就会中断。通过这些会议，我希望自己能变得更平易近人，让大家知道可以直接给我发Slack消息或邮件。

And then I do ask me anything sessions with teams of different sizes, depending on how intimate we want it to feel. But truly, anything is fair game as a way to get to know me as a person, for me to hear questions, to try to be candid about what I can answer or can't answer. And so those things have helped me maintain connection, but both of those examples are about making the time for it. So what I have found as my role has changed is that it just wouldn't happen if I didn't make it a priority. And then through those types of sessions, I do think I become, or I hope to become more approachable so people know, You can send me a Slack message, can you send me an email.

就像之前说的，我会尽快回复，因为这是我对自己的要求。这样就建立了我和团队之间宝贵的沟通渠道。如果失去这些连接点，我想我可能就不愿继续现在的工作了，所以这些互动确实很有帮助。

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm going to respond to you as quickly as I can because I want to hold myself to that bar. And so that builds a flow of communication between me and the team that I really value. I don't think I would want to do my job if I didn't have those points of connection, so that helps too.

而且你每次领导层会议后都会给大家发邮件。大家都会说'啊对，Elizabeth就是这样的'

And you also send an email to everyone after every leadership meeting. They're like, Oh yeah, Elizabeth.

是的，他们听我的。是的。

Yeah. They hear from me. Yeah.

与此相关的是，我们有一个共同的朋友阿里·拉奥，这就是我们如何认识的。她曾是Airbnb的数据科学家，现在在Uber工作。她有个问题想让我问你，关于你如何做到全神贯注的。

Kind of related to this. So we have a mutual friend. That's how we got connected, Ali Rao. She was a data scientist at Airbnb, now she's at Uber. And she had a question that she wanted me to ask, and it's about how good you are at being present.

她的问题是关于她注意到的一点——无论和谁交谈，她都能百分百专注。在这个充斥着邮件、iPhone和Slack的时代，这太难做到了。你有什么建议能帮助人们提升这种能力吗？比如她该什么时候回复消息？有时甚至在开会时。

So her question is something she's noticed about Something I've noticed about her is how 100% present she is no matter who she talks to. Do you have any advice for people to get better at this because it's so hard in the day of email and iPhones and Slack? Her question's like, like, when does she respond to stuff? If not, sometimes in meetings.

实际上，我觉得像现在这样的对话最能让我全神贯注。我确实留出大量时间进行一对一交流，真诚地关心对方近况、如何帮助对方、他们为何兴奋——这才是真实的。虽然我的助理可能会对我花这么多时间做一对一感到无奈，但对我来说，人际连接正是我享受工作的部分原因。我认为很多人从工作和生活中获得的满足感也源于此，而我努力在会议中践行这一点。不过在30人的会议里边听边处理其他事时，我就没那么专注了。

I actually think I'm the most present when I'm having conversations like this one. And I I do preserve a lot of time to have one on one conversations where I'm genuinely curious about how someone's doing, how I can help them, what they're excited about, that's authentic. And so while my EA would probably cringe at saying I like to spend time doing a lot of those one on ones, it is relatively easier for me to say the human connection is part of what I enjoy about this. I think that's true for a lot of people in what we get out of work and life, but I try to live that in those meetings. I'm probably not as good when we're talking about meetings of 30 people and I'm multitasking.

所以我承认自己确实会分心处理其他事。但一对一的对话对我来说非常神圣。我发现持续投入这类交流的秘诀——或许对他人也有帮助——是我一些最重要的朋友和人脉，包括阿里这样的人，都是在职业道路上结识的。比如我和阿里的丈夫基思·亨伍德在多个地方共事过，包括Analysis Group和Lyft。这些经历创造了机会，成为连接的纽带。

So I will admit to doing that for sure. But I think the one on one conversations I treat as being pretty sacred. And one of the things I've noticed that helps me continue to invest in that and maybe is helpful for other people is some of my greatest friends and connections, including people like Ali, are people I met along the way professionally. So I worked very closely with Ali's husband, Keith Henwood, at multiple places, both Analysis Group and at Lyft. And that means that it's created opportunities and it's been points of connection.

简单说就是付出会有回报。我生命中有些人之所以重要，是因为曾共事或相遇。我相信如果我能给他们留下积极印记，将来也会回馈于我。所以总结来说，我真心享受这种交流，尤其在工作中获得的正是这些。

And so you get back what you give, basically. There are people in my life who are part of my life because I worked with them or because I crossed paths. And I like to think that if I can make a positive mark on them, it'll come back and be a benefit at some point, too. So I think to distill that is that I truly enjoy it. It's what I get out of, especially work.

久而久之这就成了我的社交圈，让我受益匪浅。所以我常给人建议：这个圈子很小，想想你在他人身上的投入，因为这将来对你自己也重要——我也努力践行这一点。

And then it's my community, and that's served me really well over time. And so I have given people advice of, This is a small community. Think about what you're investing in other people, because that will matter down the line for yourself too, and try to live that myself.

这真是很好的建议。我想到两点：一是以你希望被对待的方式对待他人，可能有人这么说过。而且你多次提到这个观点——关注那些给你能量和你擅长的事情，并在这方面加倍投入。

That's such good advice. There's kind of two things that come to mind there. One is treat people the way you want to be treated. Someone once said that maybe. And I think you've come back to this a couple times, this idea of just pay attention to what gives you energy and that you're good at and just almost double down on that.

就是让这越来越成为一种超能力。

Just make that more and more of a superpower.

是的，最后那部分引起了共鸣。反思自己的感受、兴奋点和享受的事物，一直是我个人和职业实践的重要部分。我认为这让我更踏实，也许能帮助我更专注，或成为更好的管理者或领导者。这可能也是秘诀的一部分，但这是我的实践方式。

Yeah. That last part resonates. It's been a big part of my personal and professional practice to reflect on how I'm feeling, what I'm excited about, what I'm enjoying. And I do think it helps me be more grounded, which maybe helps me be more present or helps me be a better manager or leader. That might be part of the secret sauce too, but it's part of my practice.

我忍不住想问，这真的是一种实践吗？你是定期这样做，还是只是想想而已，比如‘我应该反思一下’？

I can't help but ask, is this an actual practice? Do you do this on a regular basis? Or is this just something you think about, like I should reflect back?

我希望我能高级到说自己会冥想并建立所有这些结构。实际上，我可能提到过我是个内向的人，所以确实会花些时间独处。这是我充电的方式。尤其是清晨，认识我的人有时会对我发邮件的时间感到惊讶。但清晨对我来说是安静的时刻，我会试着每天自省：事情进展如何？为什么感到焦虑？为什么感到兴奋？

I wish I was so advanced to say I meditate and I create all this structure. It's more that I I think I mentioned maybe I'm an introvert, so I do spend some time alone. That's how I recharge. Early mornings, especially people who know me sometimes are horrified at the time of day I send emails. But early mornings are a quiet time for me where I do try to have a daily check-in of just how are things going, why am I feeling anxious, why am I feeling excited?

这就像你锻炼的肌肉。虽然我不写日记，也不冥想，但我确实会保护一天中的这段时间不受干扰，以便能静心思考。

It's kind of a muscle you build. So while I don't write in a journal, I don't have a meditation practice, I do have a time of day when I try to keep it protected from other things so that I can think for a second.

这让我想到杰夫·贝索斯的早晨习惯。他称之为‘闲逛时间’，直到十点前都不安排会议。他就想随便看看报纸、邮件，了解动态。我也在尝试这样做，真的很喜欢这种方式。

What I think about there is Jeff Bezos has this approach in the morning. He just calls, he putters around. He has no meetings until I think ten or something. He just wants to putter around, read the newspaper, see what's going on in email, which I'm trying to do. I really like that.

这种感觉真的很棒，我打算随便逛逛。早上没有任何责任。

That feels really I'm just gonna putter around. Have no responsibilities in the morning.

我从未听说过这种说法。我要采纳这种闲逛的状态。就是闲逛。

I've never heard that. I'm gonna adopt Just that puttering. Just puttering

还有闲逛。伊丽莎白，在我们进入激动人心的闪电问答环节之前，你还有什么想补充或留给听众的吗？

and puttering. Elizabeth, is there anything else you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

我已经准备好迎接激动人心的闪电问答了。

I'm ready for the exciting lightning round.

好的，既然如此，我们已经来到了激动人心的闪电问答环节。第一个问题，你最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. First question, what are two or three books you recommended most to other people?

可能有点近因效应，但我最近一直在推荐村上春树的《当我谈跑步时我谈些什么》，这本书谈到了内省，关于跑步和写作作为心流状态和冥想活动的相似之处。我读过他的一些小说，而这类对职业或爱好的自传性反思，我认为非常有见地。这是一本。另一个长期以来的最爱是米斯特里的《微妙的平衡》，那是一个关于人性复杂、挑战和关系的精彩故事。

It's probably a little recency bias, but I've been recommending what I talk about when I talk about running by Murakami, which is talk about introspection, about the similarities between running and writing as sort of flow states and very meditative things. So I had read some of his fiction books and the autobiographical reflection on these types of either professions or hobbies, I think, is very insightful. So that's one. And then one of my longtime favorite books is A Fine Balance by Mystery. And that is just a great story of human complexity and challenge and relationships.

所以我既喜欢关于人性的书籍，也喜欢关于人性的电视剧和电影。

So I'm drawn to both books and TV and film that are about humans.

说到电视和电影，这对在Netflix工作的人来说可能是个高风险问题。你最近有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

Speaking of TV and film, this is a maybe a high stakes question for someone that works in Netflix. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show?

我不想只提Netflix的作品，那样太像打广告了。《悲情三角》非常出色，如果你还没看过的话。至于电视剧，《怒呛人生》我觉得简直笑疯了。我是黄阿丽的粉丝，而且这部剧的故事情节也很独特。

I'm not gonna name all Netflix. That feels too much like an advertisement. Triangle of Sadness is phenomenal, if you haven't seen it. And then I'll go Netflix for TV beef, was I thought hysterical. I'm an Ali Wong fan, but also just a pretty unique storyline.

而且我记得他们刚拿了一堆艾美奖。

And I think they just won a bunch of Emmys.

确实拿了。

They did.

太棒了，不错的选择。下一个问题：在面试候选人时，你有什么特别喜欢问的面试问题吗？

Amazing. Good picks. Next question. Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you are interviewing?

高人才密度。我通常寻找那些能比我更胜任我当前职位的人。所以我常问候选人：如果接替我的职位，他们会优先做什么？会采取哪些不同的做法？

High talent density. I'm usually looking for the person who would be better in my role than I am in my role. So I often ask people, what would their priorities be? What would they do differently if they had my job?

下一个问题：你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的新产品？

Next question. Do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really like?

虽然我顶着CTO的头衔，但过着相当传统的生活。我最近添置的产品是一台手冲咖啡壶，这已成为我晨间仪式的一部分——我称之为'慢条斯理时光'，我会花大量时间精心冲泡咖啡，因为觉得这个过程很治愈。另外虽然不是新发现，但我必须说Peloton健身车可能是我最爱的物品。

So while I carry the CTO title, I live a pretty analog life. So my most recent product is a fellow pour over coffee maker, which is actually part of my morning ritual, which I'll now call puttering around, where I take great lengths in my coffee making process because I find it calming. And then it's not a recent find, but I have to shout out that my Peloton is probably the favorite product I own.

是单车还是跑步机？

The bike or the treadmill?

单车。我曾是户外骑行爱好者，所以承认这点可能有些奇怪，但正因如此我才更要坦白：尽管按理说应该更喜欢户外骑行，但我确实深爱Peloton。

Bike. I'm a recovering outdoor cyclist, so it's also questionable if I can even admit to this, but that's why I would admit to I love the Peloton despite being ideally an outdoor cyclist.

关于你的骑行经历我有些疑问，不过在提问之前，你是否有特别钟爱的人生格言？那种你经常回味或与亲友分享，对工作生活都很有助益的箴言？

I have questions about your cycling, but before that question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends or family that you find useful either in work or in life?

母亲曾对我说过一句让我铭记至今的话。虽然不确定自己践行得如何，但这句话是'每天都有好事发生'。她这么说是为了鼓励我用心感受日常中的小确幸，而不是被忙碌所裹挟。

My mom said something to me that has stuck with me. I don't know if I live it very well, but the phrase was something good happens every day. And the reason she said it was because she was encouraging me to be more mindful about enjoying the small things in the day to day rather than letting myself get caught up in the busyness.

真美好。最后一个问题：作为资深骑行和铁三运动员，我很好奇这项运动和时间投入给你的职业生涯或人生带来了什么？你从投入大量时间精力跑步、骑行、运动中获得哪些益处？

Beautiful. Final question. You're a big biker and triathlete. I am curious what that sport and time has given you in your career or in life? What benefits have you found from spending so much time and energy running, biking, being an athlete?

毫无疑问是心理韧性。虽然这些运动看似锻炼体魄，但我发现耐力运动更是心智的磨练——你如何经历起伏，保持状态，再从挑战中恢复。这些运动充满高低起伏，而从低谷中我真正学会了如何重整旗鼓。这些能力感觉具有普适性价值。

Certainly, mental resilience. While those sound like physical strength, I've found, especially endurance sports are much more mental and how you go through the highs and lows and sustain and then coming back from challenge. So those sports have had their highs and lows. And from the lows, I've really learned how to kind of recover and bounce back. So those feel like universally applicable skills.

你把运动精神和Netflix结合得真有意思，这种生活平衡太棒了。这给了我周五下午录制完节目后去看Netflix的正当理由。伊丽莎白，你太棒了，非常感谢你能来参加节目。

You have such an interesting mix of athleticism and then Netflix. What a good balance for life. This is gonna give me permission to go watch Netflix reporting recording this on Friday afternoon. Elizabeth, you're awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

最后两个问题：大家如果想联系你或跟进某些事情，可以在哪里找到你的网络信息？听众们怎样才能帮到你呢？

Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they wanna reach out and maybe follow-up on things? And how can listeners be useful to you?

你们随时可以在LinkedIn上找到我。如果有任何问题或意见，欢迎随时联系我。我认为听众们能帮助我的方式是，在听完我们关于Netflix文化以及如何为他人展现自我的讨论后，保持好奇心去思考如何在自己的生活中做得更好。我希望听众们能把这种思考传递给他们的同事，思考如何为他人展现更好的自己。

You can always find me on LinkedIn. So definitely reach out or ping me if you have questions or comments. And I think the way the listeners can be useful to me is being maybe curious about how they can show up even better in their lives now that we've done this reflection on Netflix culture and how we show up for other people. I would like to ask listeners to pay that forward to people that they're working with and how they show up for them.

太棒了，我很喜欢这个建议。如果正在收听的你实践了这个方法，欢迎在YouTube或Substack上留言分享你的新发现。伊丽莎白，非常感谢你的参与。

Amazing. I love that. If you end up doing this and you're listening, maybe leave a comment on YouTube or in Substack with something that you uncovered about yourself. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here.

谢谢你，莱尼。祝你周末愉快。

Thank you, Lenny. I hope you have a great weekend.

你也是。再见各位，非常感谢大家的收听。如果你觉得本期节目有价值，可以在苹果播客、Spotify或其他你喜欢的播客平台订阅我们的节目。也请考虑给我们评分或留言，这能帮助更多听众发现这个播客。

Same. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

你可以在lennyspodcast.com上找到所有往期节目或了解更多节目信息。下期节目再见。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.