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这次对话我们要做点特别不一样的。
We're gonna do something really unique with this conversation.
基本上就是一步步走一遍企业销售的整个流程。
Basically go through the enterprise sales life cycle step by step.
咱们先把框架搭起来。
Let's set this up.
先说说怎么才能约到第一次见面吧。
Let's start with how do I even get the first meeting?
现在大家都想挤进企业市场，竞争特别激烈。
We're in this flood the zone moment of everyone trying to break into the enterprise.
但你到底能帮他们解决什么问题？这问题得是基础层面的，但更重要的是，你得有独特的切入点，跟别人不一样。
But like, what exactly are you solving for them as a problem that's level one, but most importantly, the alpha and it needs to be different.
第二步就是打那个初次沟通电话。
Step two is basically running the intro call.
这是所有电话里最关键的一次。
This is the most important call out of all of them.
这就是我喜欢做的。
This is what I like to do.
非常随意。
Super informal.
不要给他们看演示。
Don't show them a demo.
不要给他们看幻灯片。
Don't show them slides.
专注于他们。
Focus on them.
进行三十分钟的一对一对话。
Have a one on one dialogue for thirty minutes.
整个策略就是放慢节奏才能加速前进。
The whole game is to slow down to go fast.
顺便说一句，这次通话千万别带录音设备。
And by the way, do not bring a recorder to this call.
每个阶段通常多久能通过一次，有什么基准吗？
What are the benchmarks for how often you get through each of these stages?
企业客户的成交率通常在30%到35%左右。
The win rate for enterprise is usually around 30 to 35%.
如果你的成交率高于这个数，说明你的定价太低了。
If your win rate is higher than that, your price is too low.
有哪些迹象表明你的销售员表现不佳？
What are some signs that your salesperson is not doing a great job?
最成功的销售人员并不是受过专业训练的销售。
The most successful salespeople are not trained salespeople.
让自己变得廉价的最快方式就是照本宣科地念销售话术。
Fastest way to commoditize yourself is to go into some sales script.
预算、决策权、需求、时机，这些应该牢记在心。
Budget authority need timing, that should be in the back of your brain.
你实际上从来不会问那些问题。
You never actually ask those questions.
你觉得有多少人其实是在瞎搞？
What percentage do you think are just doing it wrong?
百分之九十。
90.
哇。
Wow.
真的，这太有意思了。
Like it's literally so fun.
人们读那些销售书，参加那些销售培训，然后试图照搬别人的套路，但从来都不管用。
People read these sales books, go to these sales trainings, they try and take someone else's game and run with it and never works that way.
大多数人以为销售流程就五步，可我们都已经到第十步了，还没完呢。
Most people think the sales process is five steps, and we're already in step 10, and we're not even done.
销售过程中最糟糕的事情就是
The worst thing you can do in the sales process is
今天，我的嘉宾是Jen Abel。
Today, my guest is Jen Abel.
这是她第三次上这个播客了。
This is her third time on the podcast.
对于那些还不认识Jen的人，她是Jellyfish的联合创始人，State Affairs的企业销售总经理，最重要的是，她是我在企业销售的艺术和科学方面学到最多的人。
For those that don't know Jen, she is co founder of Jellyfish, GM of Enterprise Sales at State Affairs, and most importantly, the person that I've learned the most from about the art and science of enterprise sales.
在我们的第一次对话中，我们深入探讨了创始人主导的销售。
In our first conversation, we went deep on founder led sales.
在第二次对话中，我们聚焦于从100万到1000万美元的企业销售手册。
In our second conversation, we focused on the $1,000,000 to $10,000,000 enterprise sales playbook.
而在这次对话中，我们做了一件我在其他播客上从未见过的事情：我们一步一步地走完了整个企业销售周期。
And in this conversation, we do something I've never seen anyone do on another podcast: we go step by step through the full enterprise sales cycle.
大多数人认为这是一个五步的过程。
Most people think this is a five step process.
但实际上，它接近15步。
It turns out it's closer to 15 steps.
大多数人会忽略你将要听到的其中一些步骤。
Most people ignore a bunch of these steps that you'll hear about.
我们会一步步讲清楚每个环节你需要知道的所有事情，这样能大大增加你成交的几率。
We go through everything that you need to know at each step to significantly increase the odds that you close your deals.
这期节目非常实战，而且讲得很具体。
This episode is incredibly tactical and specific.
你会学到很多东西。
You will learn a ton.
我肯定学到了。
I did for sure.
就像我在节目里说的，每次和Jen聊完，我都特别有干劲，特别想赶紧去卖东西。
Like I say in the episode, I always get so energized and just excited to sell something after talking to Jen.
听完这期对话，你也会有同样的感觉。
You will feel the same way after this conversation.
我非常感谢Jen跟我们分享了这么多干货。
I'm so thankful to Jen for sharing so much alpha with us.
在我们开始之前，别忘了去lennysproductpass.com看看，可以免费获得一年全球最热门、设计最精美的AI产品，这些产品只对Lenny的订阅用户开放。
Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennysproductpass.com for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers.
那么，接下来有请Jen Abel。
With that, I bring you Jen Abel.
Jen，非常感谢你来做客。
Jen, thank you so much for being here.
欢迎回到播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
这可是你第三次来我们播客了，非常难得。
A very rare third visit to the podcast.
感觉怎么样？
How does it feel?
第三轮了。
Round three.
能来这里我特别兴奋，Lenny。
Super excited to be here, Lenny.
我比你还兴奋。
I'm even more excited.
所以这次对话我们要做点特别不一样的。
So we're gonna do something really unique with this conversation.
我以前从来没做过这种事。
I've never done anything like this before.
我们基本上会一步一步地过一遍企业销售的全流程。你会讲到，很多人觉得大概就五步，但你说其实差不多有十五步，很多人会忽略其中很多步骤。我的想法是，我想打造一个非常具体、非常实用的企业销售操作手册。
We're gonna basically go through the enterprise sales life cycle, step by step, youill talk about this, but many people think itis like five steps, you talk about how itis actually something like 15 steps, a lot of people ignore a lot of these steps, and the idea is I want to create a very concrete and tactical playbook for how to do enterprise sales.
我们之前聊过，目标就是把这些经验都掏出来，让每个人都变得超会销售，那会非常棒。
We've had conversations, that's the goal, just suck them all out, make everybody amazing at sales, it'll be great.
太好了。
Awesome.
你知道，这也正好说明了我为什么觉得这个播客对大家很有帮助，还有那种硅谷的氛围，虽然你不住在硅谷，但就是那种帮助别人学习这些东西，大家都能共赢的感觉。你可能会想，她为什么要把这些全分享出来？但也许，其实，让我来问问你。
And you know, this touches on just like why I think the podcast is really helpful to people and just the valley vibe, even though you don't live in the valley, just like there is so much win win win in helping people learn these things, know, it may feel like why is she giving away all these things, But maybe, actually, let me ask you that.
就是，你为什么愿意分享这些东西呢？
Just, like, why why do you share these things?
嗯，这很有意思，因为这里面有很多艺术成分，就算你给别人一个十五步的操作手册，还是有很多需要靠感觉去把握的东西。
Well, it's so interesting because there's so much art to this that even if you gave someone a 15 step playbook, there there's so much of a a feeling that you have to go off of.
销售是一对一的，对吧？
Like, sales is one on one, right?
你面对的是一个变量，也就是另一个人。
You're dealing with a variable, which is another individual.
如果你每次都按同样的流程来，可能每四次就有一次不奏效，因为每个人都不一样。
And if you ran the same flow every single time, it's gonna probably not hit one out of every four times because everyone's different.
比如，有些人喜欢开玩笑。
Like, some people like to joke.
有些人喜欢闲聊开场。
Some people like the small talk opener.
有些人则想直接切入正题。
Others want to jump right into it.
有些人懂技术。
Some are technical.
有些人不懂技术。
Some are not technical.
你懂吧？
You know?
所以每个人都不一样，即使我们走完这15个步骤，其中80%是固定的，另外20%就是艺术，比如你怎么让人感觉舒服，他们有没有觉得被倾听，你有没有让过程有趣，有没有讲个好故事。
So everybody's so different that even if I gave even as we go through all these 15 steps, while it's 80% of it, the other 20% is obviously the art of how you make someone feel, do they feel heard, did you make it fun, did you tell a good story.
我的意思是，这也是很重要的一部分。
I mean, that's also a huge part of this.
今天要讲的内容太多了，所以我们还是专注于怎么搞定这些交易的路线图吧。
Too much to cover today, so we'll stick to the roadmap of how to close these deals.
但我觉得企业销售有意思的地方在于，即使你卖的是10万美元的解决方案，和卖100万美元的解决方案，过程是完全一样的。
But I think the interesting thing about enterprise sales is even if you're selling a if you sell a $100,000 solution, it is the same exact process to sell a million dollar solution.
所以这就是为什么这个过程很有意思，因为企业组织对你带他们走的销售流程比他们对产品演示本身还要敏感。
So that's why it's an interesting process because the enterprise organizations are more sensitive to the process you take them through from a sales motion than they almost are with demoing the product.
太棒了。
Amazing.
而且我想顺便提一下，如果大家想继续学习，你的推特账号是最好的资源。
And I'll just give a plug for if people want to continue learning, your Twitter feed is just the best.
对。
Yeah.
你经常分享这些东西。
You share all this stuff constantly.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你说过，分享这些东西有合理的理由，但我觉得感觉就是，我就是需要把这些东西说出来。
And I think you you talk about there's, like, rational reasons to share this stuff, but I think there's it feels like there's just, like, I just need to get this stuff out.
人们需要
People need
这就像写日记，也帮我记住这些内容。
It's like a diary and it also helps me keep it in my mind too.
就像我自己在学习一样，对。
It's like my own education, yeah.
我完全明白你的意思，这也是我开始写作的原因，我当时就想，我只是想自己记住这些东西，我就打算，好吧，分享出来，让它更清晰。在我们进入具体步骤之前，先把这个框架搭好。
I know exactly what you mean, that's why I started writing, I started, I was just like, I just want to remember this stuff myself, I'm just going to Okay, share it and crystallize so before we get into the steps, let's set this up.
大家应该知道些什么？
What are some things people should know?
大概是什么样的案例？
What's kind of like the case study?
我们要讲的是，对。
What we're going be Yeah.
用
Using
我们拿SpaceX这样的公司来举例，对吧？
Let's use a company like SpaceX, right?
最近，你知道，它上了很多新闻，曝光度很高。
Recently, you know, has seen massive news press scenes.
你知道，可能大家都在关注他们。
It you know, everyone's probably targeting them.
对吧？
Right?
所以这是一个很难拿下的客户，要进去并且赢下来。
So it's gonna be a hard logo to go in and and win.
他们是一个技术型组织，但我觉得我们的目标是针对非技术团队。
They are a technical organization, but I think what we do is target a nontechnical team.
所以我们要深入探讨这个细节。
So we're gonna, like, really get into, like, the nuance of this.
那我们就拿SpaceX来说吧。
So let's do SpaceX.
为什么不选法务部门呢？
Why don't we pick legal?
咱们在法务上找点乐子吧。
Let's have some fun with legal.
法务部门有意思的地方在于，它是企业预算中最大的一项开支。
The interesting thing about legal, it's the largest budget line item in the enterprise kind of budget.
对吧？
Right?
有时候是其他预算的三到四倍。
Sometimes three to four times other budgets.
而且法律部门永远都有更多的钱。
And it's forever there's always more money for legal.
所以法律AI初创公司才这么多。
That's why there's so many legal AI startups.
我现在明白了。
I get it now.
完全正确。
100%.
太棒了。
Amazing.
我想补充一点，我之所以喜欢请你来这个播客，是因为每次我们聊完，我都特别有干劲去销售。
And I'll just add, the reason, like, the reason I love to have you on this podcast is I've I've left both of our previous conversations so just, like, fired up about selling.
我虽然没什么可卖的，但每次聊完都特别想卖点什么。
I just like, I have nothing to sell, but I'm always feeling like I wanna sell something now.
我觉得我学到了好多东西。
I feel like I've learned all these things.
感觉特别有意思。
It feels so fun.
是吧。
Are.
你是大师。
You're a master.
你真的是这方面的专家。
You're actually a master at this.
销售就是营销。
Sales is marketing.
营销在某种程度上也是销售。
Marketing is sales to some extent.
对吧？
Right?
好的。
Alright.
你确实
You do
比很多人都做得好
that better than a lot of
。
people.
感觉你在用销售技巧让我自我感觉良好。
Feel like you're using some sales technique on me to make me feel good about myself.
好吧。
Okay.
在我们进入销售企业的第一步之前，还有其他事情吗？
Anything else before we get into step one of the sales enterprise?
没有了。
No.
我觉得这样挺好的。
I think this is good.
销售周期。
Sales cycle.
SpaceX，而且瞄准法务部门。
SpaceX and targeting the legal function.
然后，比如说，一个十万美金的交易。
And then, like, a 100, let's say, deal.
对。
Yep.
而且你说得对，不管是十万还是一百万，流程都是一样的。
And to your point, it's the same process whether it's a 100 k, a million.
我还要补充一下，之前有一集你提到过，为什么你希望至少是十万美金级别的交易，才能算是一个真正能生存下来的企业级公司。
And I will add plug for a previous episode, you talked about why you wanna be at least a 100 k something as a deal to be a real enterprise company that will that will survive.
那是因为
That's Because
投资回报率以及整个经济账，但我们就不深入讨论了。
the ROI and the and just the whole economics of that stuff, but we won't get into that.
本期节目由本季的赞助商WorkOS提供。
This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS.
OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replit、Sierra、Clay以及数百家其他成功的公司有什么共同点？
What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common?
它们都由WorkOS提供支持。
They are all powered by WorkOS.
如果你正在为企业客户打造产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志以及其他大公司所需功能的痛苦。
If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies.
WorkOS将这些阻碍交易的难题转化为即插即用的API，其现代开发者平台专为B2B SaaS打造。
WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for b to b SaaS.
实际上，我投资的每一家初创公司，一旦开始向高端市场扩展，最终都会与WorkOS合作，因为他们确实是最棒的。
Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS, and that's because they are the best.
无论你是种子阶段的初创公司，想要拿下第一个企业客户，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS都是让你快速达到企业级标准、解锁增长的最快途径。
Whether you are a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth.
这基本上就是面向企业功能的Stripe。
It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.
访问workos.com开始使用，或者直接去他们的Slack频道，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。
Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions.
WorkOS让你通过好用的API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验来更快地构建。
WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.
今天就访问workos.com，让你的应用准备好服务企业客户。
Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.
好。
Okay.
第一步。
Step one.
从哪里开始呢？
Where does does it start?
你怎么开始向别人推销你的产品？
How do you start selling someone on your product?
这个问题问得好。
It's a great question.
我觉得咱们先聊聊，怎么才能约到第一次见面？
So I think let's start with, like, how do I even get the first meeting?
怎么才能跟这些人搭上话？
How do I even engage with these people?
这里面有很多细微的差别，就像我们今天拿SpaceX做案例一样。
There is so many there's so much nuance as you target as, you know, as we're using the case study of SpaceX today.
最上面一层，对吧，就是总法律顾问、法务主管、首席法务官。
You have the top of the rung, right, which is the the general counsel, the head of legal, the chief legal officer.
他们的头衔可能略有不同，但分量都一样，就是谁是团队的负责人。
They all kind of had slightly different titles, but they all carry the same weight, which is like, who's the who's the lead of the team?
在他们下面，有一堆挂着副总裁、总监头衔的人，或者LinkedIn上就写着律师。
And then underneath that, you have a bunch of people that carry a VP title, carry a director title, maybe just say lawyer on their LinkedIn.
所以你得花功夫搞清楚，我的切入点在哪里。
So you have to do the work to figure out what is my entry point?
而且只有两个切入点。
And there's only two entry points.
一个是从最顶层开始，也就是直接找决策者，比如首席法务官，或者找那个可能只差一步的人。
Starting at the very, very tippy top, meaning going direct to the decision maker, the chief legal officer, finding the individual that would be maybe one step removed.
我个人觉得，其他的人嘛，对吧？
I personally other Okay?
可能有人不同意，但我个人不会去联系其他任何人。
People would argue with this I personally would not be targeting anybody else.
要么是高管本人，要么就是他们的直接下属。
It is the executive themselves or an N-one.
对吧？
Okay?
那我们来聊聊为什么。
So let's talk about why.
要让一个企业级交易往前推进，你需要一个非常精炼的故事，能够直接击中他们组织想要解决的目标。
In order for an enterprise deal to move forward, you need to have this extremely compressed storyline that lands immediately to the objective that they wanna solve for at the organization.
这不能仅仅停留在AI任务的层面。
It has to go beyond just an AI mandate.
我觉得现在每家公司都有AI任务，而且我知道每个人都在用AI工具。
I think every company today has an AI mandate, and I know everyone is an AI tool.
但是，你到底在为他们解决什么问题？
But, like, what exactly are you solving for them as a problem?
这是第一点。
That's one.
这是第一层，但最重要的是，那个核心价值。
That's level one, but most importantly, the alpha.
引入一个全新的工具，这位高管能发现并解锁什么？
What does this executive uncover and unlock by bringing in a net new tool?
因为引入一个全新的工具，是有风险的。
Because bringing in a net new tool, okay, is risky.
没人想要它。
No one wants it.
所以如果我们瞄准的是首席法务官和N-1，你最多只有两三句话的机会。
So if we're targeting the chief legal officer and the N-one, you get two to three sentences max.
明白吗？
Okay?
可能是通过邮件或LinkedIn。
That might be through an email LinkedIn.
也可能是通过电话。
That might be through a phone call.
或者通过活动，再或者通过某种营销手段。
That might be through an event, or that might be through some marketing capability.
大多数C级高管不会对营销活动有反应。
Most C level executives don't respond to marketing.
他们可能会看到你的品牌，但不会对营销活动做出回应。
They might see your brand, they're not going to respond to a marketing campaign.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们会一对一回应。
They will respond one on one.
而最适合跟企业高管一对一沟通的人，就是创始人。
And the best individual to one on one to a corporate executive is the founder.
即使你只是B轮或C轮融资阶段。
Even if you're a series B, series C.
对吧？
Right?
创始人应该非常兴奋，想要去跟SpaceX的首席法务官面对面交流。
The founder should be ecstatic to want to get in front of the chief legal officer at SpaceX.
我觉得任何在打造真正有意义产品的创始人，都明白这其中的重要性。
I think any founder that is building something really meaningful knows the important role of that.
其次，你可以让你的客户经理或企业销售负责人去接触N-1，然后你采取所谓的“钳形策略”，因为你要同时接触两个人，并试图让他们走到一起。
Second is you can get your AE or enterprise sales lead to target the N-one and you do what you call this, I call it the pincer model because you're going after two different people and trying to get them together.
这个策略确实叫钳形策略，就是从最顶层开始，找到那个底层，然后在他们之间开展工作。
It's actually called the pincer model, is start at the very, very top, find that kind of floor, and work in between them.
对吧？
Okay?
所以，这就是你要瞄准的两种类型，或者说两个层级，来促成那次会面。因为如果你再往下走，他们可能就没法把你的故事讲清楚了。
So these are the two types of these are the two layers you wanna be targeting in landing that meeting because if you go any further than that, you risk they're not going to be able to communicate your storyline.
这就像传话游戏，对吧？
It's a game of telephone, right?
而且你从那些不接触预算或高管讨论的人那里听到的，对吧？
And now you're learning from someone that is not near the budget or the executive discussions, right?
这风险很大，因为你听到的是用户价值，而不是高管价值。
Which is super risky because now you're learning about user value, not executive value.
一个十万美元的合同需要高管赞助人来批准，来分配预算，这就是为什么你只需要从这两个层级入手。
And a $100,000 deal needs an executive sponsor to sign off on it, to allocate the budget, and this is why you need to start at these these these two layers only.
哇。
Wow.
这每一步都会衍生出很多问题和值得深挖的地方。
This is there's gonna be a fractals of questions and things to dig into with each of these steps.
这太棒了。
This is amazing.
我特别喜欢你说的这些，特别具体，特别实用。
I love how just how specific and tactical you are with all of these things.
我想试着总结一下其中的几个要点，然后我还有一个后续问题。
I'm gonna try to summarize a couple of these tips, and then I have a follow-up question.
好的。
Okay.
所以第一个要点是，要么直接找高管，比如总法律顾问、法务负责人这类人，要么找他们的直接下属。
So tip one is go after either the execs, so in this case it would be general counsel, head of legal sort of person, or N-one.
对。
Yep.
我喜欢这种描述方式，比如副总裁。
Love the way of describing it, maybe a VP.
你要通过短信、邮件或者在会议上，用两三句话向他们推销，关键是突出核心价值，也就是你的产品能为他们带来什么。
You wanna pitch them two or three sentences in like a text or email or in a at a conference, and the key is to focus on the alpha, like the way what your product will unlock for them.
这个我喜欢。
Love that.
听起来还是像这样：这是我们为你解决的问题，但真正重要的是我们解锁的核心价值。
And it sounds like there's still like, here's the problem we solve for you, but here's like really the alpha we unlock.
对。
Correct.
因为对于高管来说，要引入一个东西并成为支持者，然后分享并向下传达，他们需要支持的不只是“嘿，我们会减少做某件事的时间”这种说法。
Because it for an executive to bring something in and be the sponsor and, like, share this and disseminate this down their command, they need to stand behind something beyond, Hey, we're going to alleviate the time it takes to do X activity.
那不够有分量。
That's not big enough.
他们其实也是自己业务部门的创始人。
They're like a founder too of their own business unit.
所以你得把愿景卖出去。
Like, you gotta sell the vision.
这些人怎么才能进入下一个阶段，不管是靠他们的影响力，还是争取更多预算、更多人手。
And what are these people gonna how are they gonna get to the next stage, whether with their influence, get more budget, get more people.
不管他们怎么定义这个。
However they want to define that.
对。
Yeah.
所以听起来，他们想赢的话，你需要一个不公平的优势。
So it sounds like you don't want to like they want to win to win you need something unfair advantage.
完全正确，完全正确。
That's exactly That's exactly right.
是的。
Yep.
好。
Okay.
然后这个双管齐下的策略，我很喜欢。
And then this pincer move, love it.
所以这里的想法是，对于高管，比如首席法务官、总法律顾问、创始人，他们需要主动联系。
So the idea here is for the exec, say, chief legal officer, general counsel, founder needs to reach out.
对。
Yep.
然后这个AE去联系那个N-1联系人，你从两边同时推进。
And then this AE reaches out to the N-one contact, and you do this you go from both directions.
对。
Yep.
我猜目标是至少其中一个人会回应。
And I imagine the goal is one of them at least responds.
没错。
That's correct.
然后因为你们只隔了一层，他们通常会拉上下一层的人进来。
And then and then because you're only one step removed, they'll usually loop in that next person.
或者创始人可以说，嘿。
And or you can say the founder could say, hey.
我要把我的某某同事拉进来。
I'm gonna loop in my so and so colleague.
你们团队还有谁应该一起参与？
Who on your team should we also include?
或者，企业高管可以说，嘿。
Or the, an enterprise executive could say, hey.
我要把我的创始人拉进来。
I'm gonna bring in my founder.
能不能看看你的老板是不是也想参与进来？
Could we see if your boss might wanna be a part of this too?
对。
Mhmm.
这就是那种角色上的对等关系。
It's it's that parody of of, kind of role.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他们可能会说，等等。
And they might be like, wait.
我听说过那个。
I've heard of that.
我觉得我以前听过这个名字，因为我收到了另一封邮件。
I think I heard that name before because I got this other email.
对。
Exactly.
我不记得了。
I do not remember.
好。
Okay.
有两个问题。
Two questions.
你是怎么找到这个N-one的人的？
How do you find this N-one person?
有什么诀窍吗？
Any just tricks?
是不是就只是上LinkedIn看看，然后第二个问题是，现在有什么推荐的渠道吗？
Is it just sitting on LinkedIn kinda figuring it And then two is any channel recommendations these days?
比如，联系这些人最好的方式是什么？
Like, what's the best way to try to contact these people?
所以我会用，你可以问，你可以跟OpenAI和Anthropic讨论，让它们快速扫一下，比如，嘿。
So I'll use you can ask you can spar with OpenAI and Anthropic to, like, let them do the quick scan of, hey.
我想找SpaceX的首席法务官和他们的副手。
I'm looking to target the chief legal officer of SpaceX and their deputy.
有哪些可能是我应该联系的人？
Who are possible people I should be targeting?
然后根据那个结果，自己再判断一下，再继续搜索。
And then go off that and do your own gut check and search from there.
但通常它们会给你正确的名字。
But usually they'll give you the the the proper names.
现在，这里有个有趣的地方。
Now here's the interesting thing about this.
可能所有人都在瞄准那些人。
Everyone is probably also targeting those people.
所以你需要做到与众不同，我们在其他节目里也聊过，你的方案必须让人觉得非常不一样，而且要有真正的优势。
And is why you need to be and we talked about this in other episodes it needs to feel so different and it needs to be about alpha.
如果你没有高管层面的价值，也就是说，你的价值主张没法让高管兴奋起来，那你可能就不应该往企业级市场走，去做自上而下的策略。
And if you don't have executive value, meaning you cannot get an executive excited by your value proposition, then you probably shouldn't be moving up into the enterprise doing a top down strategy.
明白了。
Got it.
好的。
Okay.
那在联系他们方面，有什么建议吗？
And then in terms of trying to reach out to them, any tips?
有没有什么工具可以查到他们的电话号码之类的？
Is it like tools there to do to figure out their number or whatever?
他们也很特别。
They're also unique.
冷电话是有效的。
Cold calling works.
不过，这取决于职位。
Again, it depends on the role.
你不会给一个技术性很强的人打冷电话，但对非技术性的人，这招管用。
You're not gonna cold call a highly technical person, but a nontechnical person, like, it works.
电子邮件、领英、推特。
Email, LinkedIn, Twitter.
有没有工具可以找到这些电子邮件之类的？
Are there tools to find these emails and things?
比如，你有什么推荐的吗？
Like, is there something you recommend?
对。
Yeah.
你可以用很多工具来做数据补充。
You can get, like, an there's a a ton of tools that do do enrichment.
我也会先试试领英，然后打个招呼。
I also, like I'll try, like, LinkedIn first and say, hey.
我在领英上给你发了条消息。
I shot you a note on on LinkedIn.
我只是想确认你收到了。
I just want to make sure you got it.
因为大多数人不会天天看那个。
Like most people don't check that on a daily basis.
不过确实，像Lemlist这类工具，还有各种数据补充工具，都能帮你找到邮箱。
But yeah, I mean you have like Lemlist and all sorts of these enrichment tools that can give you the email.
但我觉得最重要的是，要假设他们每天收到几百封邮件。
But I think the number one thing is assume they're getting hit with hundreds of emails.
那你怎么设计你的信息，才能脱颖而出呢？
How are you gonna message your storyline to stand out?
这确实不容易做到，而这也正是为什么，回到我们第一集说的，创始人亲自做销售这么重要，就是为了解决这个问题。
And that's that's not easy to do, and that's really why I think having going back to our first episode, why founder led sales is so important to figure that piece out.
那我的下一个问题就是，你有没有一些两到三句话的例子，可能来自你现在的工作，你觉得这些是很好的两到三句话的推销例子？
So that was my next question is what are some examples of two to three sentences if you have some in your head, maybe even from your current job that that you think are good examples of this two to three sentence pitch?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得关键在于，你提供的产品有什么与众不同之处？
I think it comes down to, like, what is the differentiator to what you're offering?
甚至不是说你做得比人家好十倍。
Not even, like, what do you do 10 x better?
因为对他们来说，那听起来还是像普通商品。
Because to them, it still sounds like a commodity.
你如何重新思考商业模式？
How are you rethinking the business model?
你如何帮助他们重新思考团队架构？
How can you help them rethink the way that they're structuring their team?
我们现在正处于一个大家都在拼命挤进企业市场的阶段。
We're in this, like, flood the zone moment of, like, everyone trying to break into the enterprise.
而打入企业市场的头号关键就是，比如，我如何构建我的业务部门，在AI时代我应该怎么思考这个问题。
And the number one thing that breaks into the enterprise is like, oh, the way I'm modeling my business unit, here's how I should be thinking about it in the age of AI.
而且必须得有所不同。
And it needs to be different.
不能只是说，哦，对。
It can't just be like, oh, yeah.
我们会帮你减少这里的资源。
We'll help you reduce the number of resources here.
这样不行。
Like, no.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
他们怎么向他们的首席运营官、首席执行官展示能带来显著影响的效果呢。
Like, how are they going to show needle moving impact to their COO, CEO.
你知道，如果他们把它带到董事会上，他们会怎么评价这个产品？
You know, if they were to bring it to the board meeting, like, what would they say about the product?
这个产品能让我做什么？
This product will allow me to do what?
这就是试金石。
That's like the litmus test.
这是你随着时间不断调整的推销方案吗？
Is this a pitch that you iterate on over time?
是的。
Yes.
因为可能你知道，你可能会得到一定比例的人的回应。
Because it's prob you know, you're probably getting some percentage of people responding.
对。
Yep.
所以建议是，继续尝试重新表述这个方案。
So the advice is like, keep trying to refrain this.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
太好了。
Awesome.
好的。
Okay.
在进入下一步之前，关于第一次接触还有什么要说的吗？
Anything else on the first reach out before we get to the next step?
没有了。
No.
我觉得这样就可以了。
Think that's fine.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
那我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
我看到你在说之前摇了摇头。
I saw you shaking your head before you said it.
免得大家搞混了。
In case people confused.
好的。
Okay.
第二步。
Step two.
第二步基本上就是进行初次通话。
Step two is basically running the intro call.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
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这是所有电话中最重要的一通。
This is the most important call out of all of them.
明白吗？
Okay?
因为你在定基调，决定他们怎么看你、怎么尊重你的角色和专业能力，以及他们在第一通电话里会告诉你什么信息。如果后面他们觉得这像销售流程，就会开始守口如瓶。
Because you are setting the tone with how they think about you, how they respect you in your role and your craft, and the information they will tell you on the first call, they will clam up moving forward because it starts to feel like a sales process.
所以，作为销售，你能获取的所有信息优势都在这第一通电话里。
So all of the information edge you can gain as a seller is on this first call.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以，保持这样，这就是我喜欢做的。
So keep it and this is this is what I like to do.
非常随意。
Super informal.
别给他们看任何东西。
Don't show them anything.
别给他们看演示。
Don't show them a demo.
别给他们看幻灯片。
Don't show them slides.
别把注意力全放在他们身上。
Don't like focus on them.
进行三十分钟的一对一对话。
Have a one on one dialogue for thirty minutes.
明白吗？
Okay?
再说一次，如果他们请来了高管，你最好也让你的创始人加入那个通话。
Now, again, if they're bringing in a c suite executive, you better have your founder join that call as well.
我认识的所有创始人，没有一个不想和财富100强的高管同处一室的。
I don't know any founder that wouldn't wanna be in the room with a Fortune 100 c suite executive.
所以，如果你有创始人，一定要让他加入。
So make sure you bring in your founder, if if you have that person on.
但假设你约到了那个次一级的负责人。
But let's say you had the n minus one.
就是，比如副总裁级别的人。
You had, like, the VP on.
好的。
Okay.
非常简短。
Like, super brief.
嘿。
Hey.
我们通常这样开场。
This is how we typically open.
嘿。
Hey.
我会保持非常随意的风格。
I'm gonna keep this super informal.
我甚至不确定我们需不需要整整三十分钟。
I don't even know if we need a full thirty minutes.
把他们放在后面，比如，哦，这个人不是想占用我的时间。
Put them on the back for like, oh, this person's not trying to take out my time.
我只想交换一下介绍。
All I would like to do is swap intros.
如果合适的话，我们随时可以再约个电话，聊得更深入一些。
And if it makes sense, we can always get on another call and go much, much deeper.
但我只是想更好地了解你，也想分享一下我们在做什么，以及为什么我特别联系你。
But I just wanna better understand, like, who you are, and I'd love to share what we are doing and why I specifically reached out to you.
所以我就说，你想先来吗？
So I just said, would you like to go first?
总是让他们先来。
Always let them go first.
给自己一个优势。
Give yourself the edge.
对吧？
Right?
因为你在开口前获得的信息越多，你就越能根据他们真正关心的事情来调整和优化你的话。
Because if the more information you are receiving before you speak, the more you can frame it and and tighten it to what they specifically care about.
所以他们也不会坐在那儿听我们像推销员一样讲。
So And they also aren't, like, sitting there now listening to a pitcher like our
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
现在他们在说话了。
Now they're talking.
现在他们在交流了。
Now they're conversing.
现在感觉就是，好吧。
Now it's like, okay.
现在有意思了。
Now it's fun.
现在这个人不是在向我推销了。
Now this person's not pitching me.
我是在进行一场对话和交流。
I'm in a conversation and a dialogue.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在你跟他们聊，他们通常开场很简短。
So now you're talking to them, and they usually they usually do a very brief open.
他们会说，嘿。
They're like, hey.
我们没来得及查一下SpaceX的首席法务官。
We didn't get a chance to look up the chief legal officers, at SpaceX.
显然，这只是一个案例。
Obviously, this is just a case.
但是，不管那个人叫什么名字，你知道，我负责法务团队，等等等等。
But, like, whoever that person's name is, you know, I oversee the legal team and blah blah blah.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Great.
他们通常不会给你太多信息。
They usually don't give you much.
所以他们会说，好的。
So they say, okay.
有意思。
Interesting.
比如，你怎么看待，你们组织里有没有在推进AI相关的任务？
Like, how are you thinking about, like, do you guys have an AI mandate going on at the organization?
那你们是怎么看待现在的工作方式的？
Like, how are you thinking about the existing way you guys are doing work?
你们对2027年有什么期待？
Like, what are you looking for going into 2027?
有没有什么需要改变的？
Like, does anything need to change?
去问问他们。
Like, ask them.
有没有什么需要改变的？
Does anything need to change?
因为，再说一次，他们通常会参考上面已经讨论过并传达下来的内容。
Because, again, what they're going to usually default to is what conversations had had happened above them and had been transcended down.
所以变化通常是由上层决定的，这很好。
So the change is usually dictated from the top, which is great.
那么，进入2027年，你们在2026年做的事情有什么需要改变的吗？或者根本不需要改变？
So like what needs to change going into 2027 that you did in 2026, or maybe not at all?
这时候他们就开始敞开心扉了。
And that's when they start to open up.
还有，你不想太直接地把他们引向你的产品，因为再说一次，他们说得越多，你就能开始抓住那些关键的点。
And again, you don't want to be too pointed of like anchoring them towards your product because again, the more they speak, you can start to pull on the strings that matter.
所以他们可能会说类似这样的话，我现在是随便举个例子，但我们真的很想搞清楚怎么把更多这类工作内部化，减少对外部律所的依赖。
So they could say something along the lines of, I'm making this up at this point, but we are really looking to figure out how to bring more of this work in house and rely far less on external law firms.
对吧？
Right?
因为现在我们有了更多的工具和能力。
Because now we have more tools and capabilities.
那现在有没有衡量这个的标准？
Like, is there a measurement to that right now?
比如你们内部怎么看，如果2027年做成了，那会是什么样？
Like how are you guys like, what does that look like internally in terms of if you've done that successfully in 2027?
然后他们会说，你想了解的是，这个想法有多成熟。
And then they'll say, you're trying to understand, like, how mature is this thought.
对吧？
Right?
好的。
Okay.
现在他们开始深入了。
So now they're they're going in.
然后他们说他们不能完全回答这个问题，因为他们……好吧。
And they say they can't really answer that fully because they okay.
比如，为什么现在这件事很重要？
Like, why is that important now?
为什么你们不再等一年呢？
Like, why didn't you why not wait another year?
我是说，你们有那么多事情要做。
I mean, you guys have so much going on.
你们刚刚进行了大规模的IPO。
You just had this massive IPO.
是什么让团队想要重塑或重新调整他们的内部管理方式呢？
Like, what's causing the team to wanna reshape this or rework the way that they're, managing internally?
通常这时候，他们就开始真正引导你，告诉你他们希望如何构建团队。
And that's usually the moment of like where they start to really, guide you in terms of like how they want to structure their team.
所以现在你得到了所有这些关于他们未来方向的信息。
So now you're getting all of this information about where they want to go.
对吧？
Right?
现在当你谈论你所做的事情时，你就成了帮助他们实现目标的工具。
Now when you talk about what you do, now you're the vehicle to get them there.
对吧？
Right?
所以我尽量花最后十分钟来解释我们做什么，并且不断向他们提问。
And so I try and spend maybe ten minutes, the back ten minutes explaining what we do and just keep asking them questions.
然后说，哦，那太有意思了。
Be like, oh, that's so interesting.
哇，这个角色真让人兴奋。
Like, what an exciting role to be in.
然后我会说，好吧，坦白说。
Be like, okay, full disclosure.
对吧？
Right?
顺便说一句，我退一步讲这个。
And by the way, I take a step back to that.
别带录音机来参加这个电话会议。
Do not bring a recorder to this call.
不要录下这个电话。
Do not record the call.
他们不会敞开心扉的。
They will not be open.
他们不会表现出脆弱的一面。
They will not be vulnerable.
他们可能会以为通话被录音了，因为我觉得现在大家基本上都这么想。
They might assume it's being recorded because I think everyone kind of operates under that assumption right now.
但为了你自己好，别放录音设备在旁边。
But for the benefit of yourself, do not have a recorder present.
明白吗？
Okay?
就我们俩现在私下聊，你刚才说的那些，真正重要的是什么？
Just take off the record between the two of us talking right now of what you just shared, like, what really matters?
比如，你想掌握什么？
Like, what what, like, or, like, what do you wanna own?
或者按时间顺序，继续挖，挖得越深，他们透露的信息就越多。
Or like what's the chronological like keep digging, digging, because the more you dig, the deeper you go, the more information they give.
明白吗？
Okay?
但你不能光坐在那儿，一个劲儿地问问题。
Now you can't sit there and just pepper them with questions.
这就像是一门艺术，看这个人有多开放。
This is that art piece of like how open is this person?
有些人面无表情，有些人不是。
Some people are poker faces, some people are not.
你能和一些人聊得更深入，而和另一些人则不能。
You will be able to go much deeper with some and not deeper than others.
你只能即兴发挥。
You just have to improv.
明白吗？
Okay?
但当你掌握了这些信息，明白了该用什么框架，这时候就可以开始推销了。
But after you now have that intel and you can now understand, okay, here's the frame I'm going to take, Now you can give them the pitch.
明白吗？
Okay?
我可以确认，我每次对话中讲的故事都会略有不同。
I will confirm every single conversation I have, the storyline that I tell looks slightly different.
我每次通话都没有固定的说辞或框架，因为那样感觉太假了。
I do not have a scripted pitch or frame for any call because it feels artificial.
对方能感觉到。
They feel it.
感觉就像把他们硬塞进一个方框里。
It feels like you're putting them into a square box.
你最好的做法就是认真倾听，然后有足够的自信，根据他们刚刚分享的内容来量身打造你的说辞。
The best thing you can do is listen actively and then feel confident enough to to craft the pitch around what they just shared for you.
最后那部分听起来真的很难。
That last part seems really hard to
对。
Yeah.
确实很难。
It's very hard.
随机应变，临场发挥。
Adjust and make up.
比如说，这就是你关注的重点，而我们的产品就是为你解决这个问题的。
Like, here's what you're focusing on, and here's our product that's gonna solve that problem for you.
所以这就是那种艺术和技巧发挥作用的地方。
So that's kind of where that art and skill comes in.
没错。
That's right.
而且企业销售真的很难招人，因为一个人受的销售培训越多，就越显得不自然。
And enterprise sales, it's so, so hard to hire for because the more someone is trained in sales, the less natural it feels.
我知道这听起来有点反直觉，我们在另一次通话中也聊过这个。
I know this is counterintuitive, and we spoke about this on another call.
最成功的销售人员并不是受过培训的销售人员。
The most successful salespeople are not trained salespeople.
这就是为什么创始人在这方面做得这么好。
That's why founders are so good at this.
他们往往低估了自己的能力。
Like, they don't give themselves enough credit.
他们不擅长什么？
What are they not good at?
大概是按流程走。
Probably following this process.
他们擅长什么？
What are they great at?
挖掘信息，顺藤摸瓜，用愿景让人兴奋。
Pulling out information, pulling on strings, getting people excited by vision.
没人比他们做得更好。
No one can do that better than they can.
有多少次你会觉得，好吧。
What percentage of the time are you just like, okay.
这其实帮不了你太多。
This isn't actually gonna help you that much.
所以我们就分享一下我们目前的情况。
So just we'll share we're up to.
好的。
Okay.
你在点头，这种情况确实会发生。
You're nodding that happens.
我觉得每四个电话里有两到三个是有实质内容的。
One I would say two to three out of every four calls, there's something real.
四分之一是有实质内容的。
One out real.
对。
Yeah.
确实有实质内容。
There's something real.
每四个电话里有一个，我会说，听着。
One out of every four calls, I'm like, listen.
根据你们目前的成熟度和我们的情况，差距太大了。
Based off of the maturity of where you guys are and where we are, it's too much of a gap.
比如说，我很乐意一年后再来谈这个，等你们有机会解决一些具体问题之后。
Like, I'd love to revisit this in a year, like, once you guys have a chance to, like, solve for x, y, or z.
关于资格认定，这个问题问得真好。
The that's such a great question about the qualification.
大多数人都不会符合资格，不一定是因为你找错了人，因为如果你是企业高管或大客户经理，你的工作就是知道该找谁谈。
Most people are not gonna be qualified, not because necessarily you're talking to the wrong person, because if you're an an if you're an enterprise executive or enterprise account executive, your job is to know who to talk to.
明白吗？
K?
而且你的工作也是快速淘汰不合适的人，大概每四个电话里就有一个是这种情况。
And your job is also to quickly quickly disqualify someone, and it's probably one in every four calls Awesome.
因为成熟度不够。
Because of maturity.
好的。
Cool.
所以你不必在每次通话中都给自己那么大压力，非要搞定不可，对吧？
So you don't have to have this, like, intense pressure to mail it on every call and Yeah.
这就是我们的方案。
Here's the here's the pitch.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Awesome.
我还想说的是，让他们分享很多信息这个想法，可能听起来有点像是在套路他们，但实际上，他们有自己的问题需要解决，而你是来帮他们解决问题的。
What I also wanna comment on is at the this idea of, like, getting them to share a bunch, it may feel tricky, like you're tricking them to sharing all this, but really, they have problems they want to solve, and you're there to help them solve a problem.
所以他们为什么不愿意直接说呢？
And so why would they not want to just, okay.
这就是我们需要帮助的地方。
Here's what we need help with.
这就是问题所在。
Here's the problem.
这就是我们的优先事项。
Here's our priority.
他们的工作就是购买解决这些问题的方案。
Their job is to their job is to buy solutions to these problems.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们才有预算。
That's why they have budgets.
对吧？
Right?
所以，让自己变得廉价的最快方式，就是照搬那些销售话术，比如预算、决策权、需求、时间点。
So that's why the the and the the fastest way to commoditize yourself is to go into some sales script, like budget authority need timing.
这些应该记在脑子里。
Like, that should be in the back of your brain.
你实际上根本不会去问那些问题。
You never actually ask those questions.
好的。
Cool.
好的。
Okay.
所以这里的核心要点是专注于了解并挖掘他们的优先事项。
So the core kind of lesson here is focus on learning and extracting their priorities.
我的感受是，你要推动他们更真实地表达，并且真正去检验这些问题到底有多重要。
And what I felt is you push them to get more real and and, like, really pressure test how big of a deal are these?
为什么是这样？
Why are this?
为什么这很重要？
Why is this important?
因为你希望他们反过来问你这些问题，因为那才是你建立关系的标志。
Because you want them to ask you those questions because that's when you know you're building a relationship.
比如，我上周有个客户问我，你们团队今年最大的收获是什么？
Like, I like I had a client last week say to me, what's the biggest learning your team has had this year?
就像每个产品都需要改进一样。
Like every product needs to get better.
每个产品都有bug。
Every product has a bug.
每个产品，你知道的，都没法像他们说的那样做到某些事情。
Every product, you know, isn't able to do X or Y, as well as they said.
然后我就觉得，这真是个很好的问题，我觉得太有意思了。
And I'm like, that's a really good I'm like, that's so funny.
我们刚刚才聊过这个。
We just had a conversation about it.
然后她说，谢谢你分享。
And she was like, thank you for sharing.
就是这样。
That's it.
他们只是想看到你坦诚，因为这样感觉就不那么像推销了。
They just want to know you're vulnerable because then it doesn't feel like it feels less like sales.
我想现在很多公司的优先事项之一就是节省token成本。
I imagine priorities for a lot of companies these days is saving token costs.
我知道传统上，你不会把降低成本作为销售卖点。
I know classically, you don't wanna focus on lowering costs as a sales pitch.
这是更便宜的选择。
This is the cheaper option.
对。
Yep.
你觉得如果这种情况经常出现会怎么样？
Thoughts on if that just comes up a bunch.
我们就像法律部门一样。
We just like legal.
我们只需要节省成本。
We just need to save costs.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在定价方面，他们的工作是，通常会有两种策略。
So in pricing, their job is to there's gonna there's usually gonna be two motions.
我需要用最低成本的方式来做这件事，因为它在优先级里排得很靠后，我真的不太在乎。
I need the lowest cost way to do x because it's low on the totem pole, and I really don't care.
就算它只完成了六成，也没人会因此被解雇。
If it's 60% of the way there, no one's getting fired over it.
我更愿意省下预算。
I'd rather just save budget.
或者你在解决一个可以收费很高的问题，比如两万五千五百美元，因为如果涉及法律，风险很高，对吧？
Or you're solving a problem that you can charge, you know, $25,500 ks land because it is a high risk if you're dealing with legal, there's high risk to it, right?
信息缺失、事情被延误、没人理解新法规或法律的重要性、不够严谨。
Missing information, being delayed on something, not having people understand the importance of some new regulation or law, not being buttoned up.
我觉得每个组织的情况都不一样，对吧？
I think for every organization looks differently, right?
比如市场营销和销售，很明显是数字驱动。
Like marketing to have needs to produce, you know, marketing and sales, it's very clear that numbers drive them.
对于法律部门，他们可能需要消除风险。
For legal, it's probably they they need to stomp out risk.
太棒了。
Awesome.
对，没错。
So yeah.
基本上，这就回到了阿尔法和
Basically, this comes back to the idea of alpha and
是的。
Yep.
上行空间的概念。
Upside.
对。
Yep.
你越能处于那个范畴，就越能收费。
The more you can be in that bucket, the more you can charge.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
一切都会变得更容易。
Easier everything gets.
好的。
Okay.
在进入第三步之前，还有其他要说的吗？
Anything else before we get to step three?
没有了。
No.
我觉得对于第一步来说，那是最重要的会议，我感觉人们花太多时间谈论自己，却错过了赢得交易的所有竞争优势。
I think for step one, like, that that that is the most important meeting, and I feel like people just spend so much time talking about themselves and miss all the competitive advantage to win the deal.
对。
Yeah.
你提到的关于作为买家，在那个时候压力非常小的观点。
Your point about how as a buyer, it's so, like, low pressure at that point.
你只是在探索。
You're just exploring.
所以我能理解为什么人们会参与进来，挺好的。
And so I could see why people come in to it, cool.
我们来学习一下。
Let's learn.
看看这个和你在销售漏斗里的情况，比如，哦，糟糕。
Let's see if this versus you're in the funnel, like, oh, shit.
我真的得做个决定了。
I gotta actually make a decision.
如果我不想要这个，我就得拒绝他们。
I'm gonna have to let them down if I don't want this.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就像约会一样。
Like, dating.
对。
Yeah.
他们，他们愿意分享更多。
They they like, their openness to share more
嗯。
Mhmm.
但开始有点封闭了，不过我们也会讨论如何确保这种情况不会发生。
Start to clam up a little bit more, but we'll talk about how to make sure that doesn't happen too.
太好了。
Amazing.
好。
Okay.
很好。
Great.
很好的铺垫。
Great foreshadowing.
好的。
Okay.
那么第三步是写跟进邮件，是的。
So step three is writing a follow-up Yes.
初次通话。
Intro call.
对。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
通常现在，大多数人的阶段是初次接触、演示、提案、签约，你知道的，赢单或输单。
So usually right now, the stages that most people have is intro, demo, proposal, contracting, you know, close won or close loss.
有五个阶段。
There's five stages.
这些阶段都很基础。
They're very basic.
人们通常从初次通话直接进入演示。
People usually go from an intro call straight to a demo.
对吧？
Okay?
演示就是整个过程中的诱饵。
The demo is your carrot in the process.
每个人都想看看你刚才提到的那个神奇的东西。
Everyone wants to see this amazing thing you just spoke about.
对吧？
Okay?
所以你的任务就是确保在做正式演示的时候，电话会议里有合适的人。
So there's your job is to make sure that when you do that demo, the formal demo, you have the right people on the call.
因为如果没有，第一，你就失去了组织这些人、调动他们的筹码。
Because if you don't, one, it's you you lost your leverage to, like, organize that group and rally them.
但更重要的是，你不想让它看起来像是一个人的心血。
But more importantly, you never want it to feel like one person's baby.
对吧？
Right?
如果你要向那位总监或副总裁销售，你需要确保那位高管觉得这也是他们的心血，他们在参与塑造它，上面有他们的印记。
If you're selling to that director or that VP, you need to make sure that that executive feels like it's part of their baby and they're helping craft it and they have their fingerprints on it.
反过来也一样。
And vice versa.
比如，如果你希望高层管理人员，如果他们有实际用户的话，你也希望那些用户觉得他们也被拉进来了。
Like, you want the c suite if they want actual users to feel like that they were bought in on this too.
好的。
Okay.
所以你要让这成为——这是棘手的地方。
So you want to make this to be and this is the tricky part.
你希望有人来推动这件事并完成交易，但你必须让它看起来像是团队的努力。
You want it to there's gonna be someone that's gonna champion it and get the deal done, but you gotta make it feel like a group effort.
好的。
Okay.
所以，和你进行初次通话的那个人，就是你建立关系的人。
So the person that you had the intro call with, that's who you built the rapport with.
那个人现在就是你的支持者，无论是高层主管，还是稍微隔了一层的人。
That that's your that's your champion at this point, whether it's the c suite executive or, one step removed.
我说支持者。
I say champion.
大多数支持者都是隔了一层的，但我们可以说，高层主管已经把这件事委托给了支持者去处理。
Most champions are one step removed, but let's just say the c suite executive has delegated this now to the champion to to to navigate.
好的。
Okay.
对于演示通话，现在，在你做演示之前，先和他们再通一次电话。
For that demo call, now now before you do the demo, get on another call with them.
嘿。
Hey.
我们第一次通话聊得很开心。
I had so much fun on our first call.
我觉得我们有很大的机会能够支持你们。
I think that there is a great opportunity to get to, you know, support you guys.
顺便说一下，这次通话应该只要十五分钟。
This call should be fifteen minutes, by the way.
好的。
K.
我很想做一次演示，但在演示之前，我想确保房间里坐的都是对的人，而且我演示的内容也是对的。
I'd love to do a demo, but before we do the demo, I wanna make sure we have the right people in the room and I'm demoing the right things.
你能根据我们之前的对话帮我了解一下吗？
Can you help me understand from the conversation we had earlier?
在我现在带你了解产品的时候，你觉得哪些内容会引起团队的共鸣？
And as I'm walking you through now I'm walking you through the product, what do you think would resonate with the team?
现在你正在收集更多的情报。
Now you're collecting more intel.
好吗？
Okay?
现在感觉就像，哦，太好了。
Now it starts to feel like, oh great.
现在他们可以在这上面留下自己的印记了。
Now they get to put their fingerprints on this.
所以就像，好的，当我们向这个团队演示时，我希望在这个点提出这个问题。
So it's like, okay, when we demo to this group, at this point I want this question to be asked.
你能在会议上问这个问题吗？
Can you ask this question in the meeting?
因为我想让他们理解这其中的价值。
Because I want them to understand the value of this.
他们会说，我实际上会问这个问题，因为它会引起更多共鸣。
And they'll be like, I'm actually going to ask this question because it's going to resonate more.
所以现在你正在和这位内部高管一起构建这个演示，而你的竞争对手都没有这样做。
So now you're building this demo alongside this internal executive, and none of your competitors are doing this.
你竞争的其他初创公司都不会做这些额外的步骤。
No other startup you're competing with is taking these extra steps.
你现在从这些对话中获得了内部情报，而且他们现在觉得自己是这段旅程的一部分。
You now have the alpha of the intel they're giving you from these conversations, And now they feel part of this journey.
明白吗？
Okay?
现在他们信任你了。
Now they trust you.
所以，现在你花十五分钟或者三十分钟来搞清楚，对吧？
So it's like, okay, so now you're spending fifteen minutes trying to figure out okay or thirty, right?
有时候他们不会给你那么多时间，但你可以要求三十分钟，可能实际只有十五分钟，然后说，这里有五个不同的方向我们可以深入探讨。
Sometimes they won't give you that much more time, but ask for thirty, probably do 15, And say, here are the five different things we can we can go into.
从我们第一次对话来看，这两件事似乎很重要，但让我把五个都展示给你。
From our first conversation, it sounds like these two things matter, but let me show you all five.
然后他们可能会说，好的。
And then they might say, okay.
我希望你做我们刚才谈的那两件事，但我也想让你展示这个，因为这也是我们任务的一部分，这样会显得更全面。
I want you to do those two that we spoke about, but I also want you to show this because this is also part of our mandate, and this will make it feel holistic.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在你已经和对方内部的人一起规划好了整个流程，而且你也知道了该找哪些人。
So now you just mapped out the storyline with an internal partner on their end, and now you're now you have the names of the right people.
现在你要结束这个电话了，很好。
Now you're gonna to close that call, great.
我们能不能找个时间看看大家的日程，然后把这个安排到日历上？
Is there a time we can look at everyone's calendar and put this on the on the calendar?
把会议定为一个小时。
Make the meeting an hour.
演示应该是一个小时。
The demo should be an hour.
好的。
Okay.
在这次会议之前，你可以问问，我们是不是要先给团队里的其他人做个预演示，看看他们会不会感兴趣，然后再去进行团队演示？
Now you can ask before this meeting, do we wanna do a pre demo to maybe someone else on your team that would be excited by this before you race to the group demo?
还是直接进行团队演示？
Or should we just do the group demo?
他们比任何人都更了解自己的组织，也更清楚这个需求有多紧迫。
They know their organization better than anyone else and how pressing this need is.
如果他们还不确定是否需要这样的东西，他们可能会想在面对大团队之前，先找其他人来了解一下。
Now, if they're less mature in knowing if they want something like this, they probably want to bring in someone else before the big group.
如果他们觉得，不，不，不，这是我们真正想要推进的事情，那他们可能已经准备好进入团队演示了。
If they're like, no, no, no, this is something we want to, you know, really move into, they probably are ready to go into a group.
所以你只需要弄清楚他们在决策过程中处于哪个成熟阶段。
So you just need to figure out where they are on that maturity arc of their decision.
好的。
Okay.
那么现在，我们要不要先进行预演示呢？
So now you have do we wanna go into a pre demo?
我们是假设他们已经做了预演示，还是直接进行小组演示？
Do we wanna assume they checked off pre demo or do we wanna do group demo?
那个预演示多久做一次？
How often does that pre demo happen?
我是说，我会尽量推动预演示，因为再说一次，那能获取更多信息。
If you're I mean, I try and push for it because again, it's just more intel.
我们就假设有预演示吧。
Let's say, let's assume there's a pre demo.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在你有一个新同事在电话里，你可以说，嘿。
So now you have a new colleague on the phone, and you could say, hey.
我打算用五分钟时间，跟你同步一下我从某某那里了解到的情况。
I'm gonna for five minutes, I was gonna catch you up on the the things that I just learned from so and so.
你能补充些什么吗？
What can you add to that?
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
你看到了吗，你就是这样一路收集越来越多的信息。
Do you see how you're just collecting more and more intel along the way?
所以现在你是在为他们构建商业案例。
So now you're building the business case for them.
现在他们感觉是在主动购买，而不是被推销。
Now they feel like they're buying, not being sold to.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在你已经有两三个人对大型集体演示感到兴奋了。
So now you have two or three people at this point already excited for the big group demo.
在销售过程中，进入演示环节时最糟糕的事情就是毫无准备地直接进行一个街头演示。
The worst thing you can do in the sales process when you move into demo is just go into one street demo with no prep.
或者更糟的是，一个企业组织可能会因为正在进行尽职调查而联系你，说，嘿。
Or worse, a enterprise organization might reach because they're going through a due diligence process to say, hey.
我们很想看看你们做出来的东西。
We'd love to see what you guys have built.
你会向四五个人展示吗？
Will you present this to four or five people?
别这么做。
Don't do it.
要么你只是个走过场的，你不想让自己变成走过场的。
It you're either a checkbox, and you don't want you wanna remove yourself from being a checkbox.
要么就是你要在没有竞争情报的情况下演示产品。
Or two, you're about to demo your product with no competitive intel.
那样的话，你基本上就已经丢了这笔单子了。
Like, you just lost the deal at that point.
天哪。
Oh my god.
企业级的交易，这个感觉跟我们的情况太像了。
Enterprise deals are one on this feels so close to who we are.
感觉就像是专门为我打造的。
It feels like it was built specifically for me.
这就是整个游戏的关键。
That's the whole game.
太棒了。
Amazing.
我很喜欢，你不仅跟我们分享了这么多干货。
I love how just how much alpha not only you're sharing with us.
感觉这次对话的主题就是干货，就像我们从这次对话中得到的干货一样。
Like, there's it's like it feels like the theme of this is alpha, just like the alpha we're getting from this conversation.
而且感觉这个过程里，你也在从团队那里获取干货。
It also feels like a lot of this process is you getting alpha from the team.
我不知道“干货”这个词用得对不对，
I don't know alpha is the right word,
但，不。
but No.
不是。
No.
是的。
It is.
这是信息优势。
It's information edge.
对。
Yeah.
这是信息优势，我的对手没有的。
It's the information edge that whoever I'm up against is not getting.
在企业里，你得假设你总是面对某种竞争。
And you have to assume in the enterprise you're always up against something.
你要么面对什么都不做的现状，要么面对一个做了些事情的竞争对手，或者一个现有玩家。
You're up against not doing anything at all, or you're up against a competitor who who does some or an incumbent.
对吧？
Right?
大多数情况下是现有的竞争对手。
Most likely the incumbent.
但让我觉得不可思议的是，很多人就这么随便抛出一个推销方案，完全没有考虑到还得让它显得随意又有趣。
But it's so crazy to me how many people just, like, spew out a pitch with, like, no you also have to make it informal and fun.
就是说，你得明白，对吧？
Like, you need to you know?
人们也会从他们喜欢的人那里买东西。
People also buy from people they like.
对吧？
Right?
到目前为止，我很喜欢这种感觉，就是觉得挺可行的，没那么难。
I love how so far at least it feels very doable, not that difficult.
感觉我自己也能做到。
Feels like I could do this.
绝对可以。
Absolutely could.
而且到目前为止，每个步骤感觉都不需要花太多时间。
And it doesn't feel like it takes that much time to do any of these steps so far.
就像打个电话，学点东西，然后想一想。
It's like a call, learn some stuff, think about it.
有没有哪些不明显的时间段，你会花很多时间独自思考某件事？
Is there any, like, times time buckets that we that aren't obvious of, where you spend, like, a bunch of time on your own thinking about something?
是的。
Yeah.
我会花很多时间琢磨他们话里的言外之意。
So I will I spend so much time thinking about what read in between the lines of what they were saying.
那就是我会跟进的时候，比如在大演示之前的那些预备电话。
And that's when I will follow-up like those kind of pre run calls before a big demo.
我会澄清所有那些问题，比如，嘿，我知道你说了这个，我理解得对吗？
Like I'm clarifying all those questions like, hey, I know you said this, like, did I interpret that correctly?
这是不是优先事项？
Like, is that is that the priority?
然后呢，他们又会往更深了聊。
Like, and then again, they'll go deeper.
你越是去推断、去提问，就越得不停地引导，这简直就是在引导人类，对吧？
Like, the more the more you infer the questions you ask, it's almost like you just have to keep prompting the whole it's like prompting humans at this point, right?
就是一层一层往下挖，你得到的答案会越来越精准。
Like, go deeper and deeper and deeper and the answers you're going to get are just going to get so much more refined.
整个游戏的关键就是慢下来，才能快起来。
The whole game is to slow down, to go fast.
所有这些都应该在九十天的销售周期内完成，具体看他们的成熟度。
All of this should be should be within a ninety day sales cycle based off of their maturity.
所以有些听众可能会觉得这听起来工作量很大。
So some people listening to this may sound like a lot of work.
我觉得这正是能赢得订单的公司和产品跟那些赢不了的区别所在。
I imagine that this is what separates companies and products that win deals versus not.
你知道，你可能产品更好，价格更优，有很多优势，但如果不在销售过程中这样执行，那很可能就是在自毁前程。
You know, you could have a better product, you could have a better price, a lot of things, but just not executing in this way through the sales process is probably shooting yourself in the foot.
或者你被困住了，你刚向企业客户卖了一个一万五千美元的方案，那你怎么扩展这个呢？
Or you're stuck at you just sold the enterprise on a $15,000 solution, which goes you what do you how do you expand that?
整个游戏的关键就是扩展。
The whole game is expansion.
如果你不能从十万或二十五万增长到三十五万或五十万，那就不算是企业级的运作。
If you're not going from a 100 k or 250 k to three fifty or 500 the following year, it's not an enterprise motion.
好的。
Okay.
那我来简单总结一下我们现在的进展，第一步，约到会议。
So just to kind of quickly summarize where at, step one, landing the meeting.
对。
Yep.
然后进行初次通话。
Then running the intra call.
接着是后续的初次通话，对。
Then there's this follow-up intro call Yep.
你指出这步经常被忽略，对。
Which you pointed out is often ignored Yep.
而且这是改进演示的一个大好机会。
And a big opportunity to improve the demo.
是的。
Yeah.
我很喜欢你描述演示的方式。
I love the way you described the demo.
就像你手里拿着一个胡萝卜，可以稍微用一下，来多挖出一些东西。
It's kind of this carrot that you're holding that you can use a little bit to kind of extract more.
对。
Yep.
然后第四步就是准备推销和设计演示的框架。
And then there's step four is prepping the pitch and framing the demo.
对。
Yep.
这里还有什么要分享的吗？
Is there more to share there?
还是说我们觉得已经到了那个点，就是，好吧。
Or do we think we're at the point where it's like, okay.
现在你在跑一个大型演示。
Now you're running a big demo.
对吧？
Right?
你有了。不错。
You've got Cool.
所以，是的。
So Yes.
所以现在你有了所有参与演示的人。
So now you have you now now you have all of the people involved in the demo.
你可能有人来自他们的AI团队，会支持一些推广工作。
You might have somebody that's involved from their AI team that's gonna support some some rollout.
你可能会有一些人，比如你希望所有参与这个决定的人都在演示的现场。
You might have somebody like, you want all of the people involved in this decision at that table for the demo.
这就是为什么不能急于求成。
That's how important it is to not rush it.
好。
K.
所以现在你正在运行演示。
So you now you're running the demo.
在演示之前，在那些电话会议中，这些人都是谁？
Now you're before that demo on that on one of those calls, who are all these people?
他们关心什么？
What do they care about?
我应该避免什么？
And what should I avoid?
你现在已经建立关系的那个人可以给你提供所有的情报。
The person that you've now built this relationship with can give you all of the intel.
到了这个时候，他们希望这件事能顺利推进。
At this point they want this to go forward.
现在这对他们来说就像是一个巨大的亮点，比如‘我发现了这个很棒的工具’。
Now this is like a great star for them of like I found this amazing tool.
它能解决我们的问题，而且现在我可以和另外一两个人一起在上面署名。
It's going to solve our problems, and now I get to put my name on it alongside one or two other people.
对于那次演示，一定要确保你清楚知道有哪些人参与，他们关心什么，以及对他们来说，一次成功的演示是什么样的。
For that demo, just make sure you know exactly who's involved, what these people care about, and what does a successful demo look like for them.
我就直接问他们。
I just ask them.
嘿，大家经常做演示。
Hey, people do demos all the time.
比如，什么看起来效果好？
Like, what looks good?
三十分钟讨论，可能十分钟展示？
Thirty minutes of a discussion, maybe ten minutes of showing?
十分钟讨论？
Ten minutes of discussion?
四十分钟在演示产品？
Forty minutes of in the product?
你告诉我这个组织喜欢什么就行。
Like, you tell me what the the organization likes.
而且那个演示会上，会有一些没参加过这些电话会议的人。
And on that demo there's going to be people that were not a part of any of these calls.
你的任务是退一步，重新开始，先介绍我们是谁，为什么我们要做这件事，而且完全站在他们的角度。
Your job is to take a step back and restart with here's who we are, Here's why we are doing what we are doing, and it's fully in their frame.
你现在已经掌握了所有背景，可以站在他们的角度来表达了。
You now have all the context to put this in their frame.
所以对于那些新来的人，他们会觉得，天哪。
So now for these net new people, they're like, holy shit.
这简直就是为我们量身定做的。
This was built for us.
抱歉我说了粗话。
Sorry for my French.
现在他们开始认真听了，觉得，好吧。
Now they're now they're, like, leaning in being like, okay.
行。
Alright.
有人觉得这跟我们需要的非常契合。
Somebody this is very aligned with what we need.
因为他们根本不知道你已经跟这些人聊过了。
Because they have no idea you've talked to all these people
完全不知道你已经聊过了。
No idea you've talked to all
这些人。
these people.
了解他们的挑战是什么。
Learn what their challenges are
然后他们就会凑过来，觉得这次感觉不一样了。
You're and like they're leaning in being like, this feels different.
这其实也是整个差异化的一部分。
Now this is also the whole part of, like, it's being different.
不只是你的产品不一样，你的推销方式不一样，你整个销售流程也不一样。
Not only is your product different, not only is your pitch different, the way you're going through the sales process is different.
所以他们就会觉得，哇，这些人真厉害。
So it's like, wow, these guys are good.
好。
Okay.
行。
All right.
现在让他们说吧。
So now let them talk.
让这些新客户说说看。
Let these net new people talk.
你可以说，嘿，我知道我们之前没机会聊过。
Be like, Hey, I know we haven't had a chance to speak.
你今天想从这次演示中得到什么？
Like, what do you want to get out of the demo today?
我想确保我能为你重点讲解。
I want to make sure I focus for you.
现在你要多关注这些新客户，让他们感受到你的重视。
Now you're leaning a little bit more into these net new people so they feel the love.
明白吗？
Okay?
然后当你演示产品时，80%的价值来自20%的功能。
And then when you demo the product, 80% of the value comes from 20% of the product.
你在之前的通话中已经知道了那20%是什么。
And you have learned on these previous calls what that 20% is.
除非有特殊原因，否则不要演示所有功能。
Do not demo everything unless there is some reason to.
因为这样一来，你精心构建的那个紧凑框架和叙事，花了那么多时间，一下子就全被推翻了，因为对方会说，哦，那个我们用不上。
Because now all of a sudden, this tight frame, this tight narrative you've just crafted and spent all this time with just gets thrown out the door because it's like, oh, well, wouldn't use that.
那个我们用不上。
I wouldn't use that.
她刚才分享的那些，其实只适用于这边的情况。
Well, everything she just shared, that's really only over here.
然后你就可能把整个事情都搞砸了。
And you could just blow the whole thing up.
而且企业客户经常会说，嘿，我们不确定是否值得花这么多钱买一个我们可能用不到一半功能的工具。
And the amount of times enterprises are like, hey, I'm not I don't know if we want to spend this much money for half the tool that we wouldn't use half the tool.
这样一来，你之前做的所有工作就全都白费了。
Now, all of a sudden, you've just unraveled all the work you've just done.
企业销售就是非常非常严格的项目管理，加上非常非常严谨的叙事和框架。
Enterprise sales is super, super, super tight project management and super, super tight narrative and framing.
要牢牢把握住那个框架。
Owning that frame.
把那个框架牢牢掌握在这些人手里。
Owning that frame to exactly who these people are.
这就是为什么这个角色这么难。
And that's why this role is so hard.
好的。
Okay.
因为这里面有很多即兴发挥，很多主动出击，还有很多弦外之音要读。
Because it's a lot of improv and it's a lot of leaning in and it's a lot of reading in between the lines.
但这些事情其实是可以做到的。
But like it's it's stuff that is is doable.
说白了，这就是心理学。
I mean, it's just psychology.
本期节目由
This episode is brought to
Mercury 赞助播出，这是一家与众不同的银行，深受超过30万企业家的喜爱，现在还有 Command 功能。
you by Mercury, radically different banking, loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, and now with Command.
我用Mercury已经超过六年了。
I've been a customer of Mercury's for over six years.
我从来没有想过要换掉它。
I have never once thought about leaving.
Mercury基本上就是那种由产品人员而不是银行家打造的银行服务。
Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers.
他们让开发票、转账、给团队设置虚拟卡变得特别简单，甚至可以说很有趣。
They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team.
你的银行有API、终端原生CLI或者AI就绪的MCP服务器吗？
Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server?
我觉得
I don't
没有吧。
think so.
而且最近他们推出了Command，一个直接集成在Mercury里的对话式界面，充当你的财务操作员。
And just recently, they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator.
我一直在用Command来转账，看看我在哪些类别上花钱最多，分析我的现金流，就在今天，我还用它查了过去一年我从赞助商那里赚了多少钱。
I've been using Command to transfer money around to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and just today, I used it to find out how much I've made from sponsor over the past year.
我就问，过去一年我从X那里赚了多少？
I just ask, how much have I made from X over the past year?
十秒钟后我就得到了答案。
Ten seconds later I have an answer.
这真的太酷了。
It is so freaking cool.
访问mercury.com了解更多信息，几分钟内即可在线申请。
Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes.
Mercury是一家金融科技公司，不是FDIC承保的银行，银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column NA Members FDIC提供。
Mercury is a fintech company not an FDIC insured bank, banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA Members FDIC.
你怎么应对那种总是把话题带偏或者说话太啰嗦的人？
How do you deal with someone that's just kind of taking things off track or just talking too long?
我觉得这就像是一种技巧和艺术，你有什么建议吗？
I imagine that's just like a, you know, skill and an art, just any tips there?
好消息是，大多数高层人士，就是你要联系的那些人，如果你说话啰嗦、冗长、容易跑题，很难达到那个职位。
The good news is is that most senior people, like the people that you're gonna, that you're, you're doing your outreach to, it's very hard to get to that title if you're like verbose and long winded and like take things off track.
所以，去接触高管的好处就是，那些人真的非常专注。
So that's the good thing about being, going after executives is those people are like really dialed in.
在高层会议上，没人会让会议跑题。
Like no one takes a meeting off track at an executive level.
当然，有时候也会遇到一些人说话绕来绕去。
Now of course, there's sometimes where there's people that meander.
你可以说，我很喜欢这次对话。
You could say, I love this conversation.
我们能先放一放吗？
Can we park it?
因为我其实想再安排一次通话，专门聊这个。
Because I actually want to spend another call just dedicated to that.
如果确实需要，那当然可以继续聊下去。
And if that, if that, if that needs to happen, then of course you can run with that.
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