本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，这些年来，我多次和那些经营公司陷入困境甚至更糟的创始人和朋友聊过这个问题。
You know, I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who were running a company going sideways or or or worse and have had this question.
我该继续下去，还是放弃？
Should I continue or not?
我总是给出同样的答案。
I always have the same answer.
我基本上会问：你对你正在构建的解决方案有多大的信念？
I basically say, how much conviction do you have in the solution you're building?
我知道，在你刚起步、还没现在这么了解一切的时候，你曾充满信心。
I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now, you had tons of conviction.
正是这份信心让你辞掉了工作。
That's what caused you to leave your job.
而现在，了解了这么多之后，你对这个难题以及你正在构建的解决方案，是更有信心了，还是信心减少了？
Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and and the solution you're building?
我会告诉你，答案各不相同。
And I'll tell you, like, get different answers.
你知道，有些人会说，哦，斯科特。
You know, some people are like, oh, Scott.
我的确更有信心了。
I mean, I have more conviction.
我学到的所有东西，从客户那里获得的所有验证，只是我们还没找到突破口。
Like, all that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet.
这快把我逼疯了。
It's driving me crazy.
我们试了三次，每次产品都失败了，但我比以往任何时候都更有信心。
We've tried three times, and it's still, like, each product fails, but I have more conviction than ever before.
对于这样的人，我会说，你知道吗？
And for those people, I'm like, you know what?
你只是处在混乱的中间阶段。
You're just in the messy middle.
坚持下去。
Stick with it.
你知道的。
You know?
这很正常。
This is this is, par for the course.
但你知道吗，我经常听到有人坦诚地说：如果我当初知道现在知道的事，我根本不会做这件事。
But, you know, oftentimes, I'll hear, honestly, if I knew now what I if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this.
我的天啊。
Like, holy shit.
我就想，那你就别干了。
I I'm like, then quit.
人生短暂。
Like, your life is short.
你有一支很棒的团队。
You have a great team.
转型。
Pivot.
做些完全不同的事情。
Do something completely different.
如果你已经失去了信念，那么在创业领域，你不应该继续做你现在正在做的事情。
If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.
欢迎来到伦尼的播客，在这里我采访世界级的产品领袖和增长专家，学习他们打造和增长当今最成功产品的宝贵经验。
Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
今天，我的嘉宾是斯科特·贝尔斯基。
Today, my guest is Scott Belsky.
斯科特是一位绝对的产品传奇人物。
Scott is an absolute product legend.
他曾是一位创始人，创办了Behance公司，后将其出售给Adobe，并在公司内逐步晋升为首席产品官，最近更成为首席战略官兼设计与新兴产品执行副总裁。
He's a former founder starting a company called Behance that he sold to Adobe, where he worked up the ranks to chief product officer and more recently, to chief strategy officer and executive vice president of design and emerging products.
他还撰写了广受欢迎的书籍《混乱的中间阶段》。
He's also an author of the beloved book, the messy middle.
他还是Pinterest、Uber、Airtable、Flexport、Warby Parker等多家公司的天使投资人。
He's also an angel investor in companies like Pinterest, Uber, Airtable, Flex port, Warby Parker, and many more.
在我们这场广泛的对话中，Scott分享了关于如何培养产品直觉的建议，解释了为什么你只应开发你想要功能的一半，阐述了打造成功消费者产品所需的关键要素，我们还花了大量时间探讨人工智能将如何改变产品领域乃至整个世界。
In our wide ranging conversation, Scott shares his advice on how to build product sense, why you should only build half the features that you want, what it takes to build a successful consumer product, and we spend a lot of time on how AI is likely to change the world of product and the world broadly.
Scott是一位极具洞察力且表达清晰的思想者，我从这次对话中学到了很多。
Scott is such an insightful and articulate thinker, and I learned a lot from this conversation.
接下来，在短暂的广告之后，我为大家带来Scott Belsky。
With that, I bring you Scott Belsky after a short word from our sponsors.
本集节目由Braintrust赞助播出，全球最具创新精神的公司都通过Braintrust快速找到人才，从而加速创新。
This episode is brought to you by Braintrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.
说实话。
Let's be honest.
创业是一项艰巨的工作。
It's a lot of work to build a company.
如果你想保持领先，就必须能够快速而自信地招聘到合适的人才。
And if you wanna stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.
Braintrust 是首个去中心化的人才网络，您可以通过它以远低于传统中介的成本，找到、雇佣和管理工程、设计和产品领域的高质量自由职业者。
Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire, and manage high quality contractors in engineering, design, and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies.
Braintrust 仅收取固定费率10%，而传统中介的费用最高可达70%，因此您的预算可以扩展到原来的四倍。
Braintrust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%, so you can make your budget go four times further.
此外，它们是唯一一个不对人才收入抽成的网络，因此能够吸引并留住全球顶尖的技术人才。
Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.
DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 以及数百家其他高增长初创公司都证实，通过 Braintrust 的2万名经过严格筛选、随时可上岗的候选人网络，他们将招聘周期从数月缩短至数周，成本不到原来的四分之一。
Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high growth startups that have shaved their hiring process for months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust network of 20,000 high quality vetted candidates ready to work.
无论您是想填补空缺、提升团队能力，还是为终于获得融资的理想项目组建团队，只需联系 Braintrust，您就能在48小时内获得三位匹配的候选人。
Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upscale your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust, and you'll get matched with three candidates in just forty eight hours.
请访问 use braintrust.com/lenny，或查看本期节目简介中的链接。
Visit use braintrust.com/lenny or find them in my show notes for today's episode.
需要人才时，请立即访问 use braintrust.com/lenny。
That's use braintrust.com/lenny for when you need talent yesterday.
本集节目由 Eppo 赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Eppo 是一个由 Airbnb 前员工打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台，专为现代增长团队设计。
Eppo is a next generation a b testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司都依赖 Eppo 来驱动他们的实验。
Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
无论你在哪家公司，进行实验正变得越来越重要，但目前还没有商业工具能与现代增长团队的技术栈无缝集成。
Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern GrowTeam stack.
这导致了时间浪费在构建内部工具上，或试图通过笨拙的营销工具运行自己的实验。
This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
当我还在 Airbnb 时，我最欣赏的一点就是我们的实验平台，它让我能够按设备类型、国家、用户阶段等维度切分和分析数据。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform, where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.
Eppo 不仅能做到这些，还能快速提供结果，避免冗长乏味的数据分析周期，并帮助你轻松找到任何问题的根本原因。
Eppo does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 让你超越基本的点击率指标，转而使用你的核心指标，如激活率、留存率、订阅和支付数据。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic click through metrics and instead use your North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscription, and payments.
Eppo 支持前端、后端、邮件营销，甚至机器学习模型的实验。
Eppo supports tests on the front end, on the back end, email marketing, even machine learning plans.
前往 geteppo.com 了解 Eppo。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.
那就是 geteppo.com，让你的实验速度提升十倍。
That's geteppo.com and 10 x your experiment velocity.
斯科特，欢迎来到这个播客。
Scott, welcome to the podcast.
嗨，伦尼，很高兴能来这里。
Hey, Lenny, and it's great to be here.
我不知道你是否知道，自从我启动这个播客那天起，邀请你来做嘉宾就是我的一个重要目标，所以你今天能来我真的很兴奋。
I don't know if you know this, but it's been a big goal of mine to get you on this podcast since the day I launched it, and so I'm really excited that you're here.
我想从你在Adobe的职位开始聊起。
I wanted to start with your role at Adobe.
很长一段时间里，你都是Adobe的首席产品官。
So for the longest time, you were chief product officer at Adobe.
最近，我注意到你转到了一个听起来非常复杂的职位。
And then recently, I noticed you shifted to this very complicated sounding role.
我很想知道这个新角色是什么，以及你为什么做出这样的转变。
I'm curious what this new role is and then why you made that shift.
在这个新角色中，我负责公司整体的战略与企业开发、所有设计工作，以及新兴业务产品。
Well, in this new role, I'm overseeing strategy and corporate development, all of design across the company, and emerging products for the business.
如果你回顾过去五年左右的时间，我们主要致力于将核心产品迁移到云端，使其具备协作功能，多年来进行了一些关键且富有机遇的收购，确保产品之间的互联互通，并推出了满足新型创意工作者需求的全新网页应用。
If you look back at the last five years or so, it really has been about getting our core products to the cloud, making them collaborative, making some critical and interesting opportunistic acquisitions over the years, ensuring that we have connectivity between the products, that we launched new web apps that meet new types of creatives.
那确实是令人难以置信的五年篇章。
And, you know, that that was a incredible five year chapter.
如今，随着人工智能以及我们新兴且快速增长的业务（如三维和沉浸式领域、图库业务）的兴起，这些领域正被新技术彻底改变，将这些业务整合进公司并全职专注于此，对我来说非常令人兴奋。
Now with the advent of AI and new and emerging fast growing businesses we have, like the three d and immersive space, the the stock business and how that whole space is being changed by new technology, the idea of bringing that into an organization and and being able to focus on that full time was really exciting to me.
那么，为了更具体一点，你现在每天都在做些什么？
So what is it that you're doing day to day now just to even get it even more concrete?
我很想知道你现在的日常安排是怎样的。
I'm curious what your days are looking like.
我认为，公司的战略始终需要不断迭代。
Well, I think that it's the strategy of a company always needs to be iterated.
因此，被赋予制定公司整体战略的任务，机会和需要见面的人、需要思考的事情都多得数不清。
And so being tasked with developing the strategy across the entire company, there's no shortage of opportunities and people to meet and things to think about there.
企业并购与发展，比如新的并购与整合工作，这些也都归我管。
Corporate development, certainly like new M and A stuff and integration, all that sort of stuff, you know, falls under me as well.
作为曾经亲身经历过整合的创业者，我对这方面有很多想法。
And I have a lot of feelings about that having been an entrepreneur that went through integration myself.
所以，能站在另一方的角度尝试改进它，确实挺有意思的。
So it's kind of fun to be on the other side and try to improve it, you know, from that vantage point.
在设计方面，我花了很多时间审查每个产品的设计，努力提升我们交付体验的质量。
On the design side, I spent a ton of time reviewing the design across every product and really trying to raise the bar for the experiences we're shipping.
在一个拥有大量遗留产品和历史包袱的公司里，这是一件很难做到的事。
And that's that's a hard thing to do in a company that has a lot of legacy products, you know, and a lot of baggage that comes with them.
在新兴产品方面，重点在于我们推向市场的新产品，以及如何让它们取得成功。
And on the emerging product side, it's really about the new products we're bringing into the market and how to make them win.
这个播客中经常提到一个问题，那就是首席产品官在一家公司里很少能长久任职。
Something that comes up on this podcast a number of times is how CPOs rarely last at a company.
他们待上几年，Casey提到过这一点，还有其他几个人也这么说过。
They stay Casey mentioned this and a few other people.
他们待上两三年左右。
They stay around for a couple of years.
他们能做的最好的就是尝试几次改进工作方式，改善一些事情，然后CEO就说：不行。
They're like the best they can do is just take a few swings at how things work, improve a few things, and then they CEO is like, no.
这不够好。
This isn't great.
然后去找别人。
And then find someone else.
你认为是什么让你在Adobe存活下来、长期留任、不断成长，并承担越来越多的责任？
What do you think has contributed to you surviving and lasting and thriving and, taking on more and more responsibility at Adobe?
在首席产品官这个职位上，我负责设计、产品和工程。
Well, in the chief product officer role, I oversaw design, product, and engineering.
我认为我之所以愿意加入这家公司并接受这个职位，部分原因是我认为这些职能之间的界限，充其量是人为的，最坏的情况下则是非常限制性的。
And I think part of the reason I was even interested in coming into the company and taking this role is that I felt like these these boundaries between these functions are, you know, at at at best artificial, at worst, like really constraining.
我一直觉得，很多产品之所以成功，并不是因为技术本身，而是因为用户对技术的体验。
And I I always have felt like a lot of products win not because of the technology, but the user's experience of the technology.
所以，如果你有一支理解这一点并据此做决策的团队，我认为你们能推出更好的体验。
And so if you have an aligned team that gets that and makes decisions accordingly, I think you can ship better experiences.
因此，多年来我做的很多工作就是打破这些界限。
So a lot of the work I had to do was breaking some of these boundaries down over the years.
而且我认为，传统的首席产品官角色通常并不管理工程团队，有时甚至不管理设计团队。
And and I think that a lot of chief product officer roles traditionally don't oversee engineering and sometimes don't even oversee design.
但对我来说，如果做不到这些，那就没什么意思了。
And, you know, for me, that wouldn't be interesting.
如果要评选产品思维的名人墙，我觉得你一定会入选。
Zooming into product, if there's a Mount Rushmore of insightful product thinkers, I feel like you'd be on it.
原因之一是你拥有非凡的产品直觉，不管那具体意味着什么。
And part of the reason is that you have this incredible product sense, whatever that means.
很明显，你具备很强的产品直觉。
It's clear that you have strong product sense.
产品经理经常谈论产品直觉的重要性以及如何培养产品直觉。
And PMs often talk about the importance of product sense and how to build product sense.
我很好奇，你是如何建立起自己的产品直觉的？
And I'm curious, how do you feel like you built your product sense?
对于想要培养产品直觉的年轻产品经理，你会给出什么建议？
And what advice would you give to younger PMs looking to build product sense?
团队常犯的最大错误之一是，他们对试图解决的问题的解决方案变得非常热衷，而不是尽一切努力去理解那些正遭受问题困扰的客户。
First of one of the think the the biggest mistakes that teams make is they become very passionate about a solution to a problem they're trying to solve as opposed to do everything they can to develop empathy for the customer that's suffering the problem.
很多时候，同理心会为你带来解决方案，而你对自认为的解决方案所持有的热情，可能偏离了真正解决方案达30度之远。
Oftentimes, the empathy gives you the solution, whereas the passion you have for whatever you think the solution is might be 30 degrees off what the solution actually is.
培养同理心是其中的关键部分。
This development of empathy is a key part of it.
当然，当我思考打造产品体验这门学科时，在我看来，这一切都关乎心理学。
Of course, as I think about the discipline of crafting product experiences, to me, it's all about psychology.
它关乎理解人们在最原始时刻所表现出的自然人性倾向。
It's about understanding the natural human tendencies that people have in their most, you know, primal moments.
我经常谈论我们使用任何产品时的最初体验，无论我们是消费者还是企业用户。
I talk a lot about the first mile experiences that we have across any product we use, whether we're a consumer or an enterprise user.
在使用新产品的前三十秒内，你会变得懒惰、虚荣且自私。
In the first thirty seconds of using a new product, you are lazy, vain, and selfish.
你希望快速完成任务。
You want to get it done super quickly.
你希望在同事或朋友面前显得很厉害。
You wanna look good to your colleagues or to your friends.
你希望通过使用这个产品迅速获得成就感。
You wanna feel successful very quickly by engaging in this product.
你不想看教程或阅读任何内容，根本不想经历任何学习曲线。
You don't wanna have to watch a tour or read anything, you know, really endure any learning curve whatsoever.
当然，如果你能让人顺利度过最初的三十秒，你就有了很多机会与客户建立更持久的关系，让他们理解你的使命和产品的全部潜力。
Of course, if you can get people through the first thirty seconds, you have so much opportunity to build a more lasting relationship with that customer and have them understand your mission and the full potential of your product.
但我们需要认清一个现实：这真的很难做到。
But we need to we need to kinda ground ourselves with the fact that that's really hard to do.
让我感到有趣的是，大多数团队在构建产品时，把最后阶段的时间都花在了考虑客户使用产品的最初体验上。
It's fascinating to me that most teams spend the final mile of their time building the product considering the first mile of the customer's experience using the product.
如果你能让更多客户通过这个漏斗顶部，那你就是一个世界级的产品团队。
If you can just get more customers through that top of funnel, you are a world class product team.
让我们专注于做好这一点，并利用心理学来实现它。
You know, let's anchor ourselves on just doing that, and let's use psychology to do so.
为了确保大家理解，当你提到最初体验时，本质上是指注册流程到激活时刻的流程吗？
And just to make sure people understand, when you talk about the first mile, essentially, that's the onboarding flow maybe to the activation moment?
我觉得没错。
I think that's right.
这就是注册流程。
It's the onboarding flow.
这是初始体验。
It's the initial experience.
这是你看到的默认设置。
It's the defaults that you see.
这是你所处位置的导向。
It's the orientation of where you are.
很多产品中，你根本不清楚自己是怎么来到当前页面的，也不知道如何返回或寻求帮助。
So many products, you actually don't exactly know how you got to where you are and how to get home and where to get help.
所以我认为，这是引导、导向和默认设置。
So I would say it's the, onboarding, it's the orientation, and it's the defaults.
你一直是一位坚定且早期的倡导者，主张在漏斗的这一阶段投入资源，有趣的是，当我们在这档播客中讨论如何提升留存率和增长时，这个问题经常被提及。
You've been a constant and early advocate of investing in that part of the funnel, and it's interesting how often that comes up on this podcast when people think about how do we improve retention, how do we improve growth.
我们在这档播客中听到的许多成功案例，其最大的突破都发生在这一环节。
Often, biggest wins from stories that we get on this podcast are in that part of the flow.
因此，这是另一个支持我们在此投入更多时间的数据点。
And so another data point to spend more time there.
我想问你的是，在像Adobe这样的阶段，第一阶段是否仍然存在大量机会，还是说机会越来越少，变得不那么重要了？
And as I wanted to ask you, are you finding even at the stage of it like in Adobe, there's still lots of opportunity in the first mile, or do you find that it becomes less and less and less and then there it's less important?
答案是：还有很多机会。
The answer is lots of opportunity.
原因是客户在变化。
The reason is because the customers change.
每一个新的客户群体都不同。
Every new cohort of new customers is different.
在产品初期阶段，你的客户通常更愿意包容、更宽容。
The new customers you have in the early stages of your product are typically more willing and forgiving customers.
你可能为他们完善了入门流程，然后突然意识到，等等，它不再那么有效了。
And you might nail the onboarding process for them and then suddenly realize that, wait, it's not being as effective anymore.
原因是现在你接触的是更多务实型客户、后期客户，他们最初更怀疑、更不宽容，也不太愿意忍受你的障碍。
And the reason is is because now you're engaging more of those pragmatist customers, those later stage customers who are initially more skeptical, less forgiving, less willing to deal with your friction.
因此，你必须重新设计整个入门流程。
And so you have to reimagine the onboarding process all over again.
我的意思是，当你看像Photoshop这样的产品时，它曾经要花几百美元。
I mean, when you look at a product like Photoshop, for example, it used to cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
对吧？
Right?
现在你可以以每月仅10美元的价格获得Photoshop。
Now you can get Photoshop for as little as $10 a month.
因此，用户的转化漏斗自然大了很多。
And so, of course, the funnel is a lot larger.
更多人带着创意愿望加入，却缺乏相关技能或耐心去培养这些能力。
A lot more people come in with creative desires without the skills or the tolerance to develop them.
这就要求像Photoshop这样的产品彻底改变其引导体验。
And so that dictates an entire change in the onboarding experience for a product like Photoshop.
这让我想到Coda的首席财务官Shishir说过的一件事，他说他并不认同产品市场契合这个概念，因为你总是和那些热爱并了解你产品的核心用户有产品市场契合，却始终无法和你希望吸引的用户达成这种契合。
It makes me think of something Shishir, the CFO, Coda, shared about how he's like, I don't really buy this idea of product market fit because you have product market fit with your existing users that love it and know about it, and always don't have product market fit with the people you want to be using the product.
这和你刚才说的有关——新加入的人根本不知道你在做什么。
And it's related to what you're talking about where, like, the newest people joining have no idea what you're doing.
我同意这一点，而且我认为，未来人工智能的作用将是让应用越来越多地适应我们当前的状态。
I agree with that, and I actually think that the role of AI going forward will be to have applications increasingly meet us where we are.
直到今天，我们大部分时候都不得不为所有人设计通用的引导体验，我非常期待有一天，产品能根据我们各自的身份和需求，主动适配我们所处的阶段。
To this day, we've always had to generalize onboarding experiences for the most part for everyone, and I'm really excited about the day when products meet us where we are based on what type of user we are.
我有一大堆关于AI的问题要问你，所以我会再稍等一下。
I have a billion AI related questions for you, so I'm gonna hold off just a bit.
我想深入聊聊同理心这一部分。
And I wanted to double click on the empathy piece.
你提到要提升产品洞察力，理解用户的问题至关重要。
So you talk about how to become better at product sense empathy and understanding the user's problems is really important.
你对想要培养这种能力的人有什么建议吗？
Do you have any advice for someone that wants to build that?
他们具体可以做些什么来增强同理心，提升这项技能？
Like, what can they actually do to become more empathetic and build that part of their skill set?
作为产品负责人，让我最受触动的时刻，总是和客户并肩而坐，观察他们如何度过日常。
Well, the most humbling moments for me as a product leader have always been shoulder to shoulder to customers watching them actually go about their day.
不是仅仅使用我的产品，而是观察他们如何过日子。
Not just use my product, but go about their day.
因为你最终获得的是对大量你原本缺失的数据的背景理解。
Because what you end up getting is context for a lot of data that you're missing.
当客户使用你的产品时，他们是在应对生活中其他所有事情的同时使用它的。
When customers are using your product, they're using it amidst everything else around them.
在企业环境中，他们一整天还要应对各种会议、其他产品和不断弹出的通知。
Know, in the enterprise, it's all their other, you know, meetings and other products and pings that they're getting throughout the day.
而对于消费者来说，可能是要在照顾孩子、陪伴亲人、刷Netflix或其他各种事情之间抽空使用。
And as a consumer, you know, it's between dealing with their kids or their loved ones or watching Netflix or whatever the case might be.
要真正理解客户所处的状况和他们的心理状态，你必须了解他们使用你的产品时的背景环境。
And in order to really understand where the customer is and where their mentality is, you have to understand the context in which they're using your product.
因此，培养同理心的一部分就是与客户并肩而立，亲身经历他们的真实处境。
So part of developing empathy is being shoulder to shoulder and just encountering that reality, you know, alongside your customer.
而这段经历能让你获得更好的直觉。
And that time, it just gives you better intuition.
它能帮助你更深入地理解用户。
It helps you understand more.
有了同理心，我们才能更好地为自己创造产品。
And with empathy, we can then better create quote, unquote for ourselves.
对吧？
Right?
因为通过培养对他人的同理心，我们能感受到他们的感受。
Because by developing empathy for others, we're feeling what they're feeling.
这样我们就能成为客户。
We can then be the customer.
当然，我们都明白，世界上一些最优秀的产品，往往是当创造者自己就是客户时诞生的。
And, of course, we all know some of the best customers some of the best products in the world are made when we are you know, the the makers are the customer.
这让我想到马克·安德森说过的一句精彩的话，我经常回味：每个人的时间都已经分配满了。
Makes me think of Marc Andreessen as this awesome quote that I always come back to that everyone's time is already allocated.
他们没有时间用你的产品。
They don't have time for your product.
没错。
They're not That's right.
我该怎么找一个新应用来占用时间呢？
How do I find a new app to suck up
顺便说一下，鉴于我知道你，Lenny，经常和很多关于产品驱动增长的嘉宾交流，如果我这里跳来跳去让你觉得混乱，我道歉，但我觉得这也很相关，因为每个人都想让自己的产品增长。
my And by the way, as a related note, since I know, Lenny, you talk to a lot of guests around product led growth, and sorry if I'm skipping around here, but I think this is also relevant because everyone's trying to get their products to grow.
另一件让我困惑的事是，人们期望产品负责人会谈论产品有多棒。
The other thing that perplexes me is that people expect product leaders expect people to talk about a product being great.
但人们并不会谈论产品完全按照他们的预期那样运行。
And people don't talk about a product doing exactly what they expected it to do.
他们谈论的是产品做了他们没想到的事。
They talk about a product doing what they didn't expect.
你看像特斯拉这样的产品。
And, you know, you look at a a product like Tesla.
人们不会去谈论今天开车体验有多棒，而是会谈论他们在仪表盘上发现的复活节彩蛋，或者那个与圣诞节相关的、令人惊叹的新功能。
You know, people are not going and talking about how they had a great drive today, but they're talking about the Easter egg they they discovered on the dashboard or the, you know, cool new feature that, you know, they discovered that is associated with Christmas or whatever.
所以，无论是在消费产品还是企业产品中——也许后者尤其如此——这总是让我觉得很有意思。
And so it always is interesting to me, like, in consumer and and even enterprise products, maybe especially so.
为什么我们不把优化重点放在那些用户没想到产品会做的事上呢？通过制造惊喜和愉悦，让人们主动谈论它，从而与我们的产品建立一种关系？
Like, why aren't we optimizing for those things that people wouldn't expect the product to do as a way to get that surprise and delight to talk about it, to have, like, a you know, to to develop kind of a relationship with our products?
我认为这是拼图的另一块。
I think that's another piece of the puzzle.
这非常有趣，让我想起了我刚和Spotify的Gustaf讨论过的内容，他的那期节目可能会在这期之前或之后发布，讲的是每个优秀的消费产品都会施展某种魔法，让你感觉像在经历奇迹，Spotify就是一个例子。
That is really interesting and reminds me of something I just talked about with Gustaf from Spotify whose episode might come in out before this or after this about how every great consumer product pulls some kind of magic trick and feels like magic to you, like Spotify as an example.
我喜欢这个说法。
I like that.
你知道，魔法，那种小小的神秘感、一点好奇心、一点惊喜。
You know, magic, you know, sort of a little mystery, a little intrigue, a little surprise.
这是好莱坞经常使用的经典手法。
It's a classic trick that Hollywood uses all the time.
为什么我们不在自己的产品中也用这种方法呢？
Why don't we use it in our own products?
让我就此深入探讨一下消费产品这个话题。
So let me pull on that thread a little bit about just consumer products in general.
你职业生涯的大部分时间，可能几乎是全部时间，都在消费领域。
You spent a lot of your career, maybe most of your career in consumer.
想象一下Adobe，现在它也有很多B2B的元素。
Imagine Adobe, there's a lot of b to b elements now as well.
你也进行天使投资，并帮助了许多消费类公司。
And you also angel invest and you'd help a lot of consumer companies.
告诉我你是否同意，但感觉新的消费类产品几乎从不成功。
And tell me if you agree, but it feels like new consumer products basically never work.
如果它们真的成功了，也会有一段短暂的辉煌期，比如Be Real现在就正在经历，Clubhouse和Paparazzi也曾经历过，然后它们就失败了，或者渐渐淡出。
And if they do work, there's, like, a period where they work, like, be real is kinda going through this now clubhouse, paparazzi went through this, and then they fail or, you know, fade away.
也许它们会卷土重来，然后再一次淡出。
Maybe maybe they come back and then fade away again.
我想说，首先，你是否普遍认为，消费者产品几乎很少能成功？
I guess, first of all, do you do you generally agree that, like, consumers just, like, so rarely successful when you consume products?
你知道，Uber就是一个消费类产品。
You know, Uber was a consumer product.
对吧？
Right?
但它建立了一个以前从未有过的网络效应。
But it built a network effect that was never there before.
它利用了始终存在但从未被开发的闲置产能。
It leveraged excess capacity that was always there but never tapped.
它在后台做了一些事情，赋予了它持久的生命力。
It did something under the hood, right, that gave it lasting power.
你知道，Pinterest，我是本的首批种子天使投资人之一，也是产品顾问。
You know, I think of Pinterest, you know, I and I was Ben's first seed angel or, you know, and and product adviser.
对于这个产品，他有着对消费者心理的独特洞察：这并不在于获得点赞或通过照片展示自己、看到朋友的照片并因此产生焦虑，而在于帮助人们收集并以自己的兴趣来代表自己。
And, you know, with with with that product, it was you know, he had this, like, unique insight into the consumer psychology where it was not as much about getting likes and portraying, you know, yourself through pictures of you and seeing pictures of friends and all this sort of anxiety that is induced by that, but rather helping people collect and, you know, represent themselves with their interests.
因此，这又是一种新的洞察，我认为它也形成了自己的网络效应，使其能够持久发展。
And so, again, that was kind of like a new a new insight that I also think developed its own network effect that enabled it to be lasting.
还有一个引人入胜的商业层面：它为每个图钉的来源带来了海量流量，促使这些网站主动添加图钉按钮，因为他们想要更多流量。
And there was a fascinating business component, which was it drove a crapload of traffic to every source of every pin, which then got those sites to then put pin buttons themselves because they wanted more traffic.
所以，这些底层机制再次在某种程度上让市场向他倾斜。
So they were underlying things under the hood again that were, you know, sort of tilting the market in his favor.
我认为，许多其他较新的消费类产品只是巧妙的短暂界面，它们的兴起实际上是以牺牲那些已经拥有网络效应、分发渠道、广告销售等优势的平台的研发投入为代价的。
I think that a lot of these other more recent consumer products are just kind of clever momentary interfaces, and they are in effect at the expense of venture capitalists r and d for the platforms that already have the network effects and already have the distribution channels and the ad sales and everything else.
因此，我认为这就是为什么我们看到Breal的能力现在也出现在TikTok中。
And so I think that's why we're seeing, you know, b real's capability is now also in TikTok.
而且你看到很多昙花一现的现象，尤其是在这些创意消费类应用中，我一直非常密切关注这些趋势。
And and you're you're seeing a lot of flashes in the pan, especially in these creative consumer apps, which I've been very you know, paying very close attention to.
它们有趣而新颖，但如果真的有效，这些功能最终会被整合进原生的苹果相机等平台中。
They're fun and novel, but if they really work, those features are then brought into the native Apple camera, for instance.
那我们深入探讨一下这一点。
So let's double click on that.
我知道这是一个很大的问题，但你觉得一个全新的消费类产品成功的关键是什么？
I know this is, like, a big question, but just what have you found is important for a new consumer product to work?
你提到过惊喜、网络效应，也许还有新的洞察。
You mentioned surprise would be great, network effects, maybe a new insight.
你认为还有什么其他因素对一个持久的全新消费类产品成功至关重要？
What else do you find is important for a durable new consumer product to work?
是的
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为我认为我十年前的答案可能和今天不同。
And it's and it's interesting because I think my answer ten years ago would probably be different than my answer today.
我认为有一种灵活性，也许这种趋势始于中国那些能够做各种事情的超级应用，这改变了十年前那种原子化体验的观念——那时人们想要的是一个非常精简、专门完成特定功能的产品。
I I think that there is a nimbleness and a and maybe it started in China with these super apps that were able to kind of do everything, and that changed the idea away from the atomized experiences of a decade plus ago where you wanted, like, a specialized product that did exactly what you wanted in a very, like, reduced way.
我觉得Snapchat就是在那种环境下出现的。
I think Snapchat emerged under that world.
你知道，我认为Instagram之所以对Facebook有价值，就是因为这一现象。
You know, I think Instagram became valuable to Facebook because of that phenomenon.
快进到今天，我们所有人都具备了更高的技术素养，能够在日常科技生活中处理更多的认知负荷。
Fast forward to today where all of us are far more technologically literate, and we are able to manage a lot more cognitive load in our everyday technology lifestyles.
因此，突然之间，我们不再介意打开五个标签页。
And so there, you know, suddenly, we don't mind five tabs.
我们也不介意功能被隐藏在菜单里，因为我们现在已经习惯了这种模式。
We don't mind features hidden and tucked away in menus because we're sort of used to that now.
所以，这可能是为什么这些成熟平台能够轻易地复制任何新颖的新功能，而不必让这些功能本身变成独立的应用程序。
And and so maybe that's one of the reasons why these established platforms get away with, you know, basically copying any novel new capability as opposed to those becoming apps in and of themselves.
让我稍微转换一下话题，谈谈你发过的一条推文，关于你学到的最重要的一件事。
So let me shift a little bit and talk about a tweet that you tweeted about what one thing you've learned.
你发布了一个精彩的系列推文，分享了多年来你在思考产品和消费产品过程中所学到的各种经验。
You had this amazing thread of just, like, things you have learned over the many years you've been thinking about products and consumer products.
其中一条是关于你学到的：你应该只做你原本想做的事情的一半。
And one of them was about how you've learned that you should do half the things that you want to do.
比如，你计划开发的功能，只做其中一半。
Like, half the features you plan to do, do half the features.
你想要提供的选项，也只提供一半。
Offer half the options you wanna offer.
专注于你目标市场的半数人群，而不是整个市场。
Focus on half the market versus market you're trying to go after.
你能谈谈你是如何得出这个领悟的吗？
Can you just talk about maybe how you kinda came upon that learning?
那你怎么实际做到这一点呢？
And then also just how do you actually do that?
是的，没错。
It's like, sure.
很好。
Great.
我们要做一半，但到底是哪一半？
We're gonna do half, but then which half?
可是有人非常想要这个功能。
And, oh, but someone wants this feature so badly.
天哪。
Shoot.
我们不可能全都做。
Like, we can't do them all.
那你有什么建议，能告诉我们如何真正实施这种做法吗？
So do you have any advice on just how to actually execute that sort of approach?
我的第一个建议是，每当团队问我哪些功能应该包含在他们的最小可行产品中，该如何决定优先上线哪些功能时，我总是告诉他们：要优先解决你希望遇到的问题。
I mean, one of the first comments I'll just make is whenever I'm asked by teams what features need to be part of their MVP, how do they decide, you know, which features they need to ship first and whatever, I always tell them to optimize for the problems they want to have.
你希望遇到的问题是：客户顺利通过你的转化漏斗，感受到成功，使用你的产品并获得价值，然后主动来找你说：‘但我需要这个功能在另一个平台上’，或者‘我需要这个能力’，或者‘我想能分享这个’。
You want the problem of customers getting through your funnel, feeling successful, using your product and getting value, and then saying to you, oh, but I need it on this platform, or I need this capability, or I want to be able to share this.
我的意思是，你正应该期待这些问题，所以现在别去实现这些功能。
I mean, you want those problems, so don't do those features now.
你只需要做那些能阻止用户达到愿意向你提出需求阶段的事情。
Only do the things that prevent people from getting to the point where they care enough to ask you for anything.
你明白吗？
You know?
确保他们能顺利完成注册流程。
Make sure they can get through the sign up flow.
确保他们能成功绑定账户。
Make sure they can connect their account.
确保他们能使用谷歌登录，或者任何其他必要的登录方式。
Make sure they can use Google login if they need to or whatever the case may be.
所以我总是提醒团队，要优化那些你希望遇到的问题，并确保消除所有可能导致重大灾难的障碍。
So I always remind the teams, like, optimize for the problems you want to have and make sure that you eliminate all the brick walls, the major catastrophe type things that can happen.
但就那些一半一半的情况而言，我是付出了惨痛代价才明白的。
But in terms of the the half, the half, half, you know, I learned this the hard way.
当Behance在2008年上线时，我总是试图通过产品功能来规避风险。
When Behance was launching back in 2008, I was always, you know, trying to hedge us with product features.
我不确定人们是来加入群组的，还是来参与创意交流、分享最佳实践的，或者是来建立作品集的，又或者只是想分享未完成的作品。
You know, I wasn't sure if people would be coming to join groups or if people would be coming for the tip exchange where creative share best practices with one another or if people were coming to build their portfolios or just share work in progress.
也许完整地构建一个作品项目要求太高了。
Maybe it's too much to build a whole project of your work.
也许我们只需要允许人们分享他们作品的快照即可。
Maybe we can allow people just to share snapshots of their work.
因此，我们上线时实际上包含了所有这些功能。
And so we actually launched with pretty much all of these features.
结果，Behance变成了最复杂的一个版本。
And and then, you know, it was the most complicated form of Behance.
讽刺的是，一开始就是这样。
It was ironically at the beginning.
然后我们意识到，有些功能火了，有些却没人用。
And then what we realized is that some things were taking off and some things weren't.
我记得当我们决定取消建议交换功能时，项目在作品集中的发布量突然增加了。
So I remember when we decided to kill the tip exchange, and suddenly, the publishing of projects in the portfolio went up.
我们当时惊呆了。
And we're like, oh my gosh.
项目发布才是核心指标，它推动了用户回流到Behance。
Like, projects being published is the core metric, and it's what drives the traffic back to Behance.
我们再来一次吧。
Let's do this again.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我们取消群组功能吧。
Let's kill groups.
于是我们取消了群组，结果发现更多人发布了更多项目。
And so we killed groups and lo and behold, more people published more projects.
当时我们就想，哇。
And it was like, wow.
所以实际上，如果你把整个产品聚焦在一件事上，每个人都会去做这件事，核心引擎的运行速度会提升十倍。
So actually, if you make the whole product about one thing, everyone does that, that core crank operates at like 10x the velocity.
如果这是对业务最重要的指标，那这就是无价之宝。
And if that's the most important metric for the business, that's gold.
于是我们基本上开启了一场大扫除。
And so we basically went on a killing spree.
我们开始不断取消各种功能。
We just started killing things.
多年来，我们实际上一直试图做到这一点，我现在也在我参与的许多产品中推行这种做法。
Over the years, we have actually tried to have this sort of and I pushed this on many products that I work with now.
每当你打算添加新功能时，都要想想可以替换掉什么。
Whenever you're adding things, consider what you can replace.
想想你还能删掉什么。
Consider what you can also remove.
当我们更新Behance上的作品集时，我记得以前用户可以在Behance上自定义作品集的颜色。
When we updated the portfolio, on Behance, I remember we used to have this ability to change the colors of your portfolio in Behance.
当人们点击你的个人主页查看所有项目时，你可以控制这些颜色，加入你的品牌元素。
When people clicked on your profile and saw all your projects, you could control that and add your brand element to it.
所以我们当时就想，你知道吗？
And and so we know we were like, you know what?
但如果我们就直接去掉这个功能，会发生什么？
But what would happen if we just took this away?
人们会不会再次更专注于项目本身？
Would people, again, focus more on projects?
于是我们就把它删掉了。
And so we took it away.
在接下来的24小时里，很多人联系我们，骂我们：‘真该死。’
For twenty four hours, we had people reaching out to us being like, damn you.
你们怎么能取消我们作品集里的颜色控制功能呢？
Like, how could you take away these controls for for color in our portfolio?
二十四小时后，我们基本上就再也没人提过这件事了。
After twenty four hours, we basically never heard about it again.
所有作品集看起来都更干净、更一致，而且人们确实更关注核心指标了。
All the portfolios looked cleaner and more consistent, and people did the core metric more.
所以我从中得出一个结论：试着去删除那些你认为必须做的事情，其实你只需要做其中一半就够了。
And so I just took from that, try to kill things and everything you think you need to do, you probably only need to do half of it.
我很好奇，现实中，大多数时候我们是不是都是事后才意识到这一点，而不是提前预见到，而这就是现实。
I wonder if in reality, most of the time you only realize this afterwards versus ahead of time, and that's just the way it is.
然后，这就成了淘汰那些其实并不重要功能的最终确认。
And then it's just the seal of sunsetting things that aren't actually important.
不过我得说，伦尼，我合作过的最优秀的产品经理，他们普遍天生就有一种极简主义或简化倾向。
I do have to say though, Lenny, like, of the best product leaders that I've worked with, I do feel like they have this great, you know, reductionist or minimalistic tendency by default.
他们总是牢牢聚焦在希望用户做好的那一件事上，对其他所有事情都相当果断地剔除。
You know, they're just, like, very much they anchor themselves on the one thing they want people to do and do well, and they just are, like, pretty ruthless about, like, everything else being like, okay.
但前提是，如果我们在这个核心事情上遇到问题。
But only if we have a problem with doing this core thing.
好的。
Okay.
放到一边暂不处理。
Put on the back burner.
你知道的。
You know?
所以，这是我多年来一直努力提升的一件事。
It's and so, it's something I've tried to, I've tried to get better at over the years.
有趣的是，这完全就像马特·莫查里所说的，他的节目是播放量最高的，他谈到解雇员工时，说每当他帮助CEO们解雇员工后，100%的情况下，团队效率都会立刻提升，因为人少了。
You know, what's really interesting is this is exactly like Matt Mochary, who is actually the number one most popular podcast episode, talks about when you let people go, and he's helped a lot of CEOs let people go, that a 100% of the time, everything just starts moving faster as soon as you have fewer people.
所以在人员和产品上，这是完全相同的模式。
And so it's the same exact model in people and products.
我觉得没错。
I think that's right.
因此我总是觉得，你知道，艰难的决定，几乎总是在事后让人感到如释重负。
And that's why I always feel like, you know, tough decisions, you know, almost always afterwards feel like a relief.
这对产品来说也是如此。
And that's true for the product.
对团队中的人也是如此。
That's true for people on a team as well.
我们来聊聊人工智能吧，我对此非常兴奋，因为我知道你花了很多时间与人探讨人工智能，打造AI产品。
Let's shift to talking about AI, which I'm really excited about because I know you've been spending a lot of time talking with people about AI, building AI products.
你们推出了Firefly，很多人都对此充满期待。
You all launched Firefly, which a lot of people are really excited about.
你还有一个通讯简报，会分享你对人工智能和技术将如何影响世界的看法。
You also have this newsletter where you kinda just share your implications on how AI and technologies are gonna impact the world.
所以我有很多问题，很期待向你请教。
So I have a lot of questions I'm excited to ask you around this.
我会先问一个比较宽泛的问题，也许这个问题太大了，但你预计五年后，由于人工智能的发展，世界会有多大不同？无论是对于产品开发者，还是对普通人来说？
And I'll just start really broad, and maybe that's too big of a question, but just how different do you expect the world to be in, say, five years as a result of AI, both for product builders and then just people in general?
听好了。
Listen.
我是个乐观主义者，我觉得人类的潜力一直被物理定律所限制。
I'm an optimist, and, and I feel like our human potential has always been held back by the laws of physics, essentially.
那些为了完成任何事情而必须做的枯燥重复性劳动，才是阻碍我们创造力的根源。
The mundane repetitive labor you need to do to get anything done is what holds back our ingenuity.
这就是摩擦。
It's the friction.
对吧？
Right?
工作流程中的那些繁琐工作，如果我们能直接进入流畅状态而不必做苦工，那该多好？
It's the work in workflows that wouldn't it be great if we could just have flow and no work?
我认为AI正是做到了这一点，它帮我们从工作流程过渡到流畅状态。
And I think that that's what AI kind of does is it gets us from workflow to flow.
它让我们进入一种心流状态，在这种状态下，你脑海中的任何想法都能立即开始实现。
It gets us into this flow state where any idea in your mind's eye, you can start to develop it.
今天早些时候，我刚和Airtable的负责人Howie讨论过这个问题，我们谈到IBM的一位高管宣布，由于AI能够完成这些工作，他将不再雇佣8000人。
I was having this discussion with Howie who runs Airtable actually just earlier today where we were talking about the leader at IBM who announced that he's not gonna hire 8,000 people that he would have hired because AI is gonna be able to do that work.
我们讨论的是，Howie指出，随着工程师的生产力在过去几年大幅提升，这并不意味着公司需要更少的工程师。
And what we were talking about was and and and Howie made the point, as engineers have become much more productive over the years, that doesn't mean that companies have wanted fewer engineers.
相反，这意味着公司对工程师的要求更高了，而工程师也有更多机会去做更多的事情。
It actually just means that they demand more of their engineers and engineers have more possibility to do more.
因此，如果人类的创造力提升了，也许我们反而更想雇佣更多的人。
And so if human ingenuity goes up, maybe we actually want to hire more people.
如果每个人都能发挥出更强的创造力，公司或许就能完成更多事情。
If you have more ingenuity per human being, maybe you can actually do more as a company.
也许原本只有三个产品的公司，现在会推出五个、七个，甚至三十个产品。
Maybe companies that used to have three products will have five products or seven products or 30 products.
也许我们忽略的趋势正是：人类能将这种创造力带到每一个问题和每一个机遇中。
Maybe that's actually the trend that we're forgetting is that humans bring this level of ingenuity to every problem and every opportunity.
而计算机，记住，像ChatGPT这样的工具，本质上只是在给你呈现如果……会是什么样子。
Whereas computers, remember, like, ChatGPT is basically just giving you what it would look like if.
对吧？
Right?
真正重要的不是寻找边缘并使其成为中心。
It's not truly finding edges that will become the center.
实际上只是挖掘中心，并试图复述中心，这当然也非常有帮助。
It's actually just mining the center, and it's trying to regurgitate the center, which is also very helpful, by the way.
所以我持乐观态度。
So I'm optimistic.
你知道，我认为会有更多人参与到体验的交付中。
You know, I think that there will be far more people engaged in delivering experiences.
我非常看好体验经济，因为我认为会有一些人获得解放，能够更专注于那些真正提升客户体验的非规模化工作。
You know, I'm very long the experience economy because I think that there will be some people liberated to focus more on the non scalable things that really move the needle for experiences for customers.
而且，我也很高兴人类能减少做那些枯燥乏味的工作。
And then I, you know, and I also am excited about humans having less grudge work to do.
我也对这一点感到兴奋。
I'm also excited for that.
展开剩余字幕（还有 446 条）
这让我想起我有个抖音账号，有一支团队帮我运营抖音，我们还没公开过，但有几条抖音视频是我用AI生成的声音，他们只负责写脚本。
It reminds me there's a I have a TikTok account, and, I have this team that helps with the TikTok, and they we haven't shared this, but a few of the TikToks are my voice generated with AI, and they just write a script.
然后是我朗读这些故事，听起来有点像我。
And it's me reading the story, and it sounds sort of like me.
但我给一个朋友看了，问他：你觉得这个视频有什么奇怪的地方吗？
But, like, and I showed it to a friend, and I was like, do you see anything you feel anything weird about this video?
他说：没有。
And he's like, no.
你听起来很棒。
You you sound great.
你听起来真的像一个非常出色的演讲者。
You sound like really like a great speaker.
我说：好吧。
I'm like, okay.
打招呼吧。
Say hi.
嗯，当你在朗读的时候，而不是念脚本，你可以顺便规划下一集的剧情。
Well, while you were reading instead of reading a script, you can be, you know, plotting the course of the next episode.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我完全明白你在说什么。
So I totally see what you're talking about there.
在产品团队中，你认为哪个职能会受到AI最大的冲击或优化？
In the product team, which function do you think will be the most disrupted and or the most, I don't know, optimized through AI?
我们正进入一个每个组织都在压缩层级的时代，在这个时代，你不需要找别人帮忙，就能自己完成更多事情。
We're entering the era where we collapse the stack in every organization, where instead of having to go to someone for anything, you can kind of do more things yourself.
通过数据直接获得答案，而不是中间还得去找数据科学家或数据分析师，这非常有力量。
It's very empowering to get the answer from data as opposed to having to go to a data scientist or a data analyst in the middle.
因此，组织内部的推诿会大大减少，人们将获得更多自主权，可以自己深入探索、解答问题并完成任务。
So there's gonna be far less game of operator across the organization and, you know, far more empowerment for people to dig their own rabbit holes, answer their own questions, and get things done.
你知道吗，我恰恰认为小团队的优势就在于它们结构扁平，层级已经坍塌，所有人都能彼此听见，隔着房间就能交流，这就是它们能超越那些分散在全球、僵化老旧的大公司的原因。
You know, I happen to believe that that's the advantage typically of small teams is that they're flat, the stack has collapsed, people all can hear each other, you know, in an audible across the room, and that's how they run circles around big, stodgy, like, old companies that are disparate, you know, and dispersed around the world.
所以，也许这项技术正促使跨职能协作成为可能，对此我感到非常兴奋。
So maybe, you know, maybe this technology allows cross functional work, right, and and to happen, and I'm excited about I'm excited about that.
这真的很有意思。
That is really interesting.
所以，你 Essentially 的意思是，产品经理将能够承担更多设计、工程和数据分析的工作。
So, essentially, what you're saying is a PM will be able to do more design, more engineering, more data potentially.
也许有一天，这种能力会好到足以替代团队中的数据科学家，本质上每个人都会成为这种全能的跨职能微型团队。
And it won't maybe one day it'll be just as good as having a data scientist in your team, but there's essentially everyone becomes kind of this unicorn cross functional mini team.
这其实暗示了‘理念精英治理’的概念。
Which sort of suggests this idea of idea meritocracy.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就像是，如果人们获得晋升和机会，是基于他们的创造力和智慧，而不是他们处理过多少报告、bug或者其他事情。
It's almost like what if people get promoted an opportunity, you know, based on how creative and how much ingenuity they have as opposed to, you know, how many reports or bug things they've gone through or whatever else.
你所说的这一点，我认为确实具有颠覆性，因为至少你还需要数据分析师参与其中。
So there's something about what you're saying that I do think, yes, it's disruptive to the degree that, well, you need a data analyst in the loop.
但我还想指出，这位数据分析师不必整天重复回应各种请求。
But I also would suggest that, again, that data analyst doesn't have to answer redundant requests all day.
她可以花时间思考其他事情，而不受我们刚才讨论的那种职能界限的约束。
She can spend time on thinking of other things without the boundaries of functions like we just discussed.
本集由rose.com赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by rose.com.
世界是运行在电子表格上的。
The world runs on spreadsheets.
你现在很可能就开着一个电子表格标签页，但你今天使用的电子表格产品是几十年前设计的，这一点显而易见。
You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet right now, but the spreadsheet product you're using today was designed decades ago, and it shows.
它们被孤立在你的业务数据之外。
They live in silos away from your business data.
它们并不是为在手机上使用而设计的。
They weren't made to be used on a phone.
如果你想要实现最简单的自动化，也得去编写那些难以维护的复杂脚本。
And if you wanna do even the simplest automation, you have to figure out complex scripts that are a nightmare to maintain.
Rows 则不同。
Rows is different.
它将现代化的电子表格编辑器、与 API 和业务工具的数据集成，以及优雅的共享体验结合在一起，能把任何电子表格转变为令人自豪的互动式网站。
It combines a modern spreadsheet editor, data integrations with APIs and your business tools, and a slick sharing experience that turns any spreadsheet into a beautiful interactive website that you'll be proud to share.
如果你正在撰写一份关于增长实验的报告，可以使用 Rose 直接从 BigQuery 或 Snowflake 中获取数据进行分析。
If you're writing a report on a growth experiment, you can use Rose to do your analysis on data straight from BigQuery or Snowflake.
如果你深入研究市场营销，可以直接从 Google Analytics、Facebook Ads 或 Twitter 导入报告。
If you're deep diving on marketing, you can import reports straight from Google Analytics, Facebook Ads, or Twitter.
或者，如果你在处理销售工作，可以直接将 Stripe、Salesforce 或 HubSpot 嵌入到 Rose 中。
Or if you're working with sales, can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce, or HubSpot directly into Rose.
完成之后，你可以将你的成果以美观的电子表格形式分享，并轻松在 Notion、Confluence 或网页任何地方嵌入图表、表格和计算器。
And when you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read and embed charts, tables, and calculators into Notion, Confluence, or anywhere on the web.
我已经把一些我最喜欢的电子表格模板迁移到了 Rose。
I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rose.
前往 rose.com/lenny 查看这些模板。
Go to rose.com/lenny to check them out.
就是 rose.com/lenny。
That's rose.com/lenny.
很多听众都是产品经理，那么再进一步，从产品经理这个职能来看，你认为未来五年AI会如何改变PM的角色？
A lot of listeners are product managers, and so just going a little bit further even within the product management function, how do you see the PM role changing in the next five years as a result of AI?
让我先说一点，我所合作过的最出色的人，无论是设计师还是产品负责人，都会留出时间去探索各种可能性。
Well, let me start by saying that I think that the greatest performers I've ever worked with, whether they're designers or product leaders, basically preserve the time to explore lots of possibilities.
他们会将这些可能性逐步缩小到少数几个。
They call those possibilities down to fewer set.
他们会针对这些选项获取反馈。
They get feedback on those.
然后进一步优化，最后向团队提出：我认为我们应该做的，是这两三个方向。
They refine them even further, and then they present to the team, like, these are the two or three things I think we should do.
这就是优秀设计师的工作方式，比如。
And that's the way a great designer works, you know, for example.
这取决于时间。
That is a function of time.
如果你具备相应的技能和能力，那就只是时间多少的问题。
If you have the skills and the and the capabilities, it's just how much time.
你有多少时间去探索所有可能的领域，找到最佳的方案？
How much time do you have to explore the full surface area of possibility and find the best possible option?
在我的世界里，在我看来，生成式AI和AI的广泛应用，当你谈到产品领导者探索可能性时，这应该会扩大可能性的范围。
In my world, in my mind, generative AI and AI for all, and you know, when you talk to about just like product leaders exploring possibilities, this should expand the surface area.
我曾经和一位在好莱坞非常知名的导演交谈，他告诉我他使用ChatGPT。
I was talking to a pretty well known director in Hollywood world, and he was telling me that he uses ChatGPT.
我当时说：‘真的吗？’
I was like, No.
你认真的吗？
Are you serious?
你真的用？
You do?
他回答说，是的。
He was like, yeah.
我并不用它来写任何剧本。
I don't use it to write any scripts.
但有时当我与编剧搭档一起开发项目时，我会问ChatGPT：‘你会怎么做？’
But sometimes when I'm developing something with a writing partner, I will ask ChatGPT, you know, what would you do?
我会把整个情境，以极其详细的细节解释清楚，然后它会给出五个不同的场景。
And I'll explain the full instance, you know, the full situation in in in extreme detail, and it will spit out like five scenarios.
实际上我一个都不会用，但它让我看到了更多的可能性。
And I actually don't use any of them, but it just gives me more surface area.
它告诉我哪些事情我不该做，这同样是很有价值的信息。
It tells me the things that I wouldn't want to do, which is also good data.
我觉得这个回答非常有趣。
And I just thought that response is so interesting.
所以当你问到产品负责人时，我认为我们将会拥有的是，在更短的时间内探索更广阔可能性的超能力。
And so when you ask about product leaders, I think that's what we're going to have is we're going to have the superpower of exploring far more surface area in far less time.
这让我想起我经常分享的一个观点：为什么你需要一个产品经理？
It reminds me of something I always share about why do you need a PM?
为什么你需要一个设计师？
Why do you need a designer?
为什么你需要一个研究员？
Why do you need a researcher?
这并不一定是因为他们特别擅长这些具体技能。
It's not necessarily that they're just, like, very good at these specific skills.
而是因为他们有时间去做这件必须有人做的事。
It's that they just have time to do this one thing that needs to be done.
你可以让工程师来承担产品经理的职责，但他们没时间。
Like, you can have engineers do the PM role, but they don't have time.
他们想写代码，更愿意做这件事。
They're they wanna code, and they're not they'd rather do that.
所以这与我所讨论的内容紧密相关。
And so this is really interesting that it connects to.
这会让每个人都有更多时间去提升他们真正想做的事情。
It'll give everyone a little more time to get better at the thing they wanna be doing.
确实如此。
That's true.
目前在Adobe，你们有没有在做些什么来帮助产品经理更好地利用这些工具以及你们当前实际使用的工作方式？
Is there anything you're doing with PMs at Adobe at this point that help them leverage these tools and just the way ways of working that you're actually using today?
我一直以来的一个执着是，将设计更早地融入产品开发流程中。
One of my obsessions has been bringing design earlier into the process of product development.
这不一定涉及AI，但关键是让设计师从一开始就参与进来，甚至参与客户研究，以及围绕客户价值主张等通常只有产品经理才参与的讨论。
So it's not necessarily AI yet, but it's the idea of designers, first of all, being in the room, even being in the room with some of the customer research and some of the debates around even the value proposition to the customer and some of the things that traditionally happen only with the PMs.
我发现，再次强调，如果把整个流程压缩一下，让设计师听到这些内容并参与贡献，当他们之后坐下来思考如何设计解决方案时，就能拥有一种‘黄金直觉’。
I just find that, again, like collapsing the stack, if you will, like having a designer hear these things and contribute gives them, like, a golden gut as they are then sitting down later and going through possible interfaces to solve the problem.
所以我非常推崇将设计前置。
So I love bringing design upstream.
事实上，这可能正是我作为产品领导者职业生涯中的秘密武器——在整个流程中极大地赋能设计。
Like, that's, in fact, that's probably been the cheat code of my career as a product leader as as just been disproportionately empowering design throughout the process.
我认为我们将开始看到生成式AI实时增强设计师的工作。
I think what we're gonna start seeing is generative AI augmenting the designer's work in real time.
所以现在，比如在Photoshop中，我们正在实验，当你不再只是缩小或裁剪图像时，还可以扩展图像。
So right now, I mean, in Photoshop, we're experimenting with when, you know, instead of just reducing an image and cropping, you can also extend an image.
而这当然使用了生成式AI的外绘功能。
And and that's, of course, using generative AI for out painting.
因此，你可以想象，在进行这类编辑以及其他形式的设计时，系统会为你提供一些可能目标的缩略图，然后你只需轻点它们，就像预测文本一样，一步步推进，从而在创意过程中实现飞跃，而不是仅做渐进式调整。
And so you can imagine as you're doing edits in that as well as in other forms of design, getting kind of thumbnails of what you might be trying to accomplish and then touching them, almost like predictive text to go to the next step, to the next step, to the next step, and take leaps in the creative process as opposed to incremental steps.
我认为这种情况会越来越普遍，希望产品设计师和产品经理能在某些决策点上参与其中，因为设计师将拥有更多可选方案。
I think that that's gonna happen far more and hopefully product designers product managers will be involved to some extent in some of these decision points, you know, as as designers have more options to choose from.
你提到了‘黄金直觉’这个词。
You threw out this term golden gut.
这是什么意思？
What is that about?
黄金直觉是指你在设计体验和流程时，正在尝试各种不同的可能性。
The golden gut is when you're when you're designing an experience and and a flow, you are playing around, right, with all kinds of options.
你在移动各种元素。
You're moving things around.
你意识到，这其实太复杂了。
You're saying, actually, that's too complicated.
也许我把这一页拆成三个步骤，而不是在一页里连续放三个步骤。
Maybe I'll separate this one page into three steps as opposed to one page with three steps in in a row.
我该怎么分解它？
How do I break this down?
我该怎么简化？
How do I simplify?
你知道，有时候你会有直觉，比如，等等。
You know, you sometimes have instincts like, oh, wait.
如果我干脆去掉这个部分呢？
What if I just remove this altogether?
你想想，如果根本不需要这一整套步骤呢？
You know, what what if you didn't even have this whole series of steps?
如果我直接设一个大胆的默认值呢？
What if I just had a presumptuous default instead?
如果客户觉得需要，他们可以自行更改。
And customers could change it if they think they need to.
在某些情况下，我一直在想，我一直在想，我一直在想——对我来说，这正是初级产品思维者与资深产品思维者之间的区别。
And, you know, in some of those sorts of I wonder if, I wonder if, I wonder if, to me is the difference between a very junior product thinker and a very experienced product thinker.
我认为，资深的产品思考者拥有那种直觉，天啊，等等，减少认知负担。
I think experienced product thinkers with that golden gut of, oh my gosh, wait, reduction of cognitive load.
即使只有10%的人感到困惑，但能让90%的人更快地完成这个流程，这也是一次巨大的胜利，是值得权衡的机会成本。
Maybe even if 10% of people get confused to get 90% of people far faster through this process is a big win and a great opportunity cost trade off.
我认为，在构建产品过程中，我们所做的那些微小的决策，就是那种直觉。
I think those sorts of little micro decisions that we make in the process of building products, that's the golden gut.
我喜欢这个说法。
I love it.
我以前没听过这个说法。
I have not heard that term before.
四个产品经理在听，心里想：好吧。
Four PMs listening and they're like, okay.
AI就是AI，它正在发生。
AI is AI is happening.
我不知道该怎么办。
I don't know what to do.
你对他们的建议是什么？如何才能保持领先，了解趋势，不被落下？
What would be your advice for them to kind of stay ahead and be aware of where things are going and and not be left behind?
很简单，用一个词来说：玩。
Quite simply, in one word, play.
我们都必须亲自去体验这项技术。
You know, we all have to be playing with this technology.
随着职业生涯的增长，风险在于你会固守旧有的方式。
We have to find ways The risk of becoming more experienced in your career is you get stuck in your ways.
然后你就想：天哪。
And you're like, oh, no.
我不需要在邮件里有自动生成的草稿，让ChatGPT帮我建议回复内容。
I don't need to have that automatic draft in my email and get Chat ChatGPT to suggest what I wanna respond with.
我没有那个也挺好。
I'm fine without that.
一定要试试看。
Make sure you try it.
一定要玩一玩它。
Make sure you play with it.
你知道的。
You know?
给你朋友写首诗吧。
Write poems for your friends.
你知道的。
You know?
去试试各种现有的生成式AI工具，看看能做什么，并追随每一个好奇心。
Try try a lot of these various generative AI tools out there just to see what's possible and pursue every curiosity.
我创办《影响》通讯的原因是，我每天都能看到大量新事物层出不穷。
The reason I started the implications newsletter is because I was seeing this high velocity of new stuff every day.
我不得不强迫自己去理解这一切，并思考这些影响将如何改变我的业务以及我所处的世界。
I'm like, have to force myself to make sure I understand all of this and think about how these implications will change my business as well as the world that I operate in.
而最好的方式就是写下来，你知道的，还要向读者承诺每月都会发布一期内容。
And there was no better way to do that than to have to write about it, you know, and promise my readers I'll get a monthly thing out there.
所以，想想吧，我们都必须做某种形式的类似事情。
So just think we all have to do some version of that.
趁现在我们来推广一下《影响》吧。
Let's plug implications while we're at it.
那么，人们该怎么订阅？在哪里能找到它？
Well, how do people go subscribe where they find it?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
它是 implications.com，很容易找到。
It's, implications.com, so it's easy to find.
但这只是一个每月的练习，整个月里，我会尝试记录一些我认为重要的内容，并深入探究这些内容对我们工作和生活的各种影响。
But this is a it's just a it's a monthly exercise where throughout the month, I try to capture a few things I think are important, and I really try to go deep down the rabbit hole of what the implications are for, you know, various parts of our work and life.
这一直是一个有趣的练习。
And it's it's been a fun exercise.
而且在这个过程中，我也收到了一些颇具争议的反馈。
And also, I get some good polarizing feedback in the process.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, you do?
有意思。
Interesting.
你应该分享一下。
You should share that.
这会很有趣，比如让我看看大家对我写的内容有什么反应。
That'd be interesting as, like, here's what I'm getting in response to the stuff I'm writing.
这也触及了这个播客中经常出现的一个话题：仅仅通过写作来帮助自己理清思路的力量。
This also touches on a thread that comes up a lot on this podcast is the power of just writing to help you think through stuff.
很多人以为我的通讯只是在分享我所知道的所有东西。
Like, a lot of people think my newsletter is I'm just sharing all these things I know.
我只是觉得我已经在脑子里想明白了。
I'm just like, I know it in my head.
我就直接分享出来。
I'm just gonna share it.
什么都没有。
Nothing.
但其实写作帮助我理清了思路，也给了我一个理由。
But it's more the writing helps me figure it out and gives me an excuse.
就像你说的，这是一种强制自己花时间去提炼内容的机制。
And like you said, it's a forcing function to spend the time crystallizing it.
所以这也是对这一点的另一个提醒。
And so that's another reminder for that.
捕捉这些想法，我认为，多年来在写作和产品开发中我逐渐明白的是，一旦你捕捉到这些零星的灵感或草图，它们在未来某一天就会变得相关。
And capturing those things, I think that the thing I've kind of learned over the years with writing and also with product development is, you know, as soon as you capture these little glimpses and things or sketches, and they become relevant years later.
所以，不要仅仅因为预见到未来需要这些内容才去记录和写作。
So don't always capture and write because of a foreseeable need for that content.
把它看作像是你一直在照料的炉子后方，想象三年后，时机成熟，这些内容或某个关键想法会成为你当下所面临问题的宝贵资源。
Consider it almost like a, you know, a back burner that you're constantly tending to and imagine that three years from now, the stars will align and this will become invaluable content or some crucial idea, you know, for a problem you're facing at the moment.
实际上，有很多和你处境相似的人，他们也想多写点东西、发布更多内容，但同时还要兼顾全职工作，肩上担子很重。
There's a lot of people actually in your shoes that want to write more and put content out, that also have full time job with a lot of things on your plate.
你有什么建议，能像你这样真正把写作坚持下来吗？
Any advice for actually getting it done the way you've been getting it done?
听好了。
Know, listen.
除了对时间的无情管理和优先级的果断取舍，也就是对大多数事情说不，没有别的捷径。
I there's there's there's no hack to it other than ruthlessness of time and prioritization, you know, saying no to most things.
今天早上，我去跑步了，当时我想，我正好有四十分钟，之后就得去洗澡，而从那时起再过三十分钟我就得赶去别处。
You know, this morning, I I went for a run, and I was like, I have forty minutes exactly until I have to get in the shower, and I have to be somewhere in thirty minutes from that moment.
我会用这四十分钟，至少三十分钟来写作。
I'm gonna take those forty minutes or at least thirty five of them and I'm going to write.
我不在乎我写五个字还是五页纸。
I don't care if I write five words or five pages.
这真的很好，但如果没有这种自律，就像你说的，很难在日程的缝隙中挤出时间。
And it's just a great you know, without that discipline though, it's, as you said, it's super hard to get it in the, you know, in the in the in seams of the schedule.
说到自律，你写过一本叫《混乱的中间阶段》的书。
Speaking of discipline, you wrote a book called The Messy Middle.
即使不谈书的内容，这个标题也很有共鸣，我觉得人们一看就懂。
And without even talking about what it is, the title is pretty, I think, people feel like I get it.
想象一下，许多听我们对话的人都是创业者或产品经理，他们正感觉自己身处这种混乱的中间阶段。
And imagine many people listening are founders or PMs that are feeling like they're in this messy middle.
对于正处于这个阶段的人，你有什么建议可以帮助他们度过这段混乱的时期吗？
What is one piece of advice for people in this period that you might you think might help them through the messy middle?
归根结底，无论是创业公司、大公司的转型项目，这些处于中间阶段的岁月之所以混乱，是因为它们充满了低谷。
The bottom line is that these years in the middle of whether it's a venture, you know, new start up, old turnaround within a big company, they are messy because they are full of lows.
你知道，这非常不稳定。
You know, it's very volatile.
当你处于低谷时，你需要找到一种方法坚持下去。
When you're in those lows, you need to find a way to endure them.
你需要忍受默默无闻、不确定性和焦虑。
You need to endure the anonymity and uncertainty and anxiety.
我敢肯定，很多听众无论是在大公司工作还是创业，都会觉得做一件没人知道、也没人在意的事情很难。
I'm sure a lot of listeners are whether they're in big companies or starting their own company, it's hard to be doing something that no one knows or cares about.
我总是提醒自己，一百多年前人类的平均寿命只有25岁。
I always like to remind myself that the life expectancy of humans one hundred plus years ago was 25 years old.
所以，花三到五年时间去做一件事，尤其是可能失败的事，会被认为是糟糕的决定。
So the idea of spending three to five years of your life on something, especially if it might fail, was a bad decision.
我认为，从生物学角度来说，我们需要持续的回报和肯定，才能坚持足够长的时间。
And I think biologically, we feel the need for constant rewards and affirmation to stick with something long enough.
事实上，如果你留意一下，你们的大部分听众都在从事需要多年时间才能突破困境的事情。
And in fact, like, if any of you know, most of your listeners are we're all we're all building things that take many, many years to defy the odds.
在这种情况下，我们必须克服与生俱来的人性倾向，坚持足够长的时间去弄清楚问题所在。
And we have to overcome our natural human tendencies in this instance by, sticking together long enough to figure it out.
那么你该如何做到这一点呢？
So how do you do that?
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，部分原因在于文化——想要服务你所服务的客户，与你并肩作战的团队共事，这些就足以让你坚持下去。
I mean, obviously, part of it is culture, wanting to, you know, serve the customers you serve and working with the team you were working with and that being enough to kinda stick it long enough.
我认为部分方法是绕过奖励机制，找到一些大家共同认可的微小目标和里程碑。
I think part of it is short circuiting the reward system, you know, finding micro goals and milestones that are, you know, mutually agreed upon.
我们会庆祝这些成就，尽管从更大的格局来看，它们并不那么重要。
We're gonna celebrate these even though in the greater scheme of things, they don't matter much.
我认为这是维持团队士气和梦想不灭的关键。
I think that's a a key part of keeping the team and keeping the dream alive.
我常常用这样一个比喻：作为产品领导者，我们正带领团队横跨全国，而后座的车窗都被遮得严严实实，所有人都坐在后座。
I always like to use the analogy of we're driving our teams across country as product leaders with the windows blacked out in the back seat and everyone sitting in the back seat.
所以如果他们不知道我们在做什么，不知道我们正在取得进展，交通正在疏通，我们刚刚跨过了州界。
And so if they don't know what we're doing, that we're making progress, this traffic is clearing, we're we just crossed state lines.
如果他们没有接收到这个叙事，他们会发疯的。
If they if they don't receive the narrative, they will go stir crazy.
因此，有很多关于进步催生进步的研究，以及进步如何成为动力的来源。
And so there's a lot of research around progress, begetting progress and how progress is a source of motivation.
因此，作为产品领导者，我们必须推广进展。
And so as product leaders, we have to merchandise progress.
我们必须成为这个叙事的守护者。
We have to be the steward of this narrative.
你刚才提到这一点，但确实也存在一个适合放弃的时刻。
And you touched on this a bit as you were just talking, but there's also this moment where it makes sense to quit.
你不应该无休止地坚持某些事情。
Like, you shouldn't stay with things endlessly.
对于什么时候应该决定放手，你有什么建议吗？
And I guess any advice on just when something is like, okay, you should probably move on from this?
这让我想到，有很多公司一直在坚持，但也许它们根本不该继续，因为它们还有足够的资金，或者只是单纯地不想停。
Makes me think a little bit about there's all these companies that just keep going that maybe shouldn't keep going because they have enough money or they're just like, no.
创始人从不放弃。
Founders never quit.
你对此有什么建议或想法吗？
Any advice or thoughts that you share there?
是的。
Yeah.
多年来，我多次和创始人以及朋友讨论过这个问题，他们经营的公司正走向下坡，甚至更糟，于是他们问自己：我该不该继续？
You know, I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who, who were running a company going sideways or or or worse and have had this question, should I continue or not?
我总是给出同样的答案。
I always have the same answer.
我基本上会问：你对你正在打造的解决方案有多大的信念？
I basically say, and I really ask, how much conviction do you have in the solution you're building?
我知道，在你刚起步、还没现在这么了解一切的时候，你有着满满的信念，正是这份信念让你辞掉了工作，承担了所有风险，雇人、融资，做了这一切。
I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now, you had tons of conviction, that's what caused you to leave your job, you know, that's what caused you to take all this risk and hire people and raise money and all this stuff.
现在你了解了这么多，你对所构建的问题和解决方案的信心是更强了还是更弱了？
Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and and the solution you're building?
我可以告诉你，我得到的答案各不相同。
And I'll tell you, like, I get different answers.
所以有些人会说，哦，斯科特。
So some people are like, oh, Scott.
我的意思是，我的信心更强了。
I mean, I have more conviction.
我学到的所有东西，从客户那里获得的所有验证，只是我们还没找到答案而已。
Like, all that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet.
这让我快疯了。
It's driving me crazy.
我们试了三次，每次产品都失败了，但我比以往任何时候都更有信心。
We've tried three times, and it's still, like, each product fails, but I have more conviction than ever before.
对于这样的人，我会说，你知道吗？
And for those people, I'm like, you know what?
你只是处在混乱的中间阶段。
You're just in the messy middle.
坚持下去。
Stick with it.
你知道的。
You know?
这完全是正常情况。
This is this is par for the course.
但你知道，我经常听到，说实话，如果我早知道现在知道的这些，我根本不会做这件事。
But, you know, oftentimes, I'll hear, you know, honestly, if I knew now what I if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this.
天啊。
Like, holy shit.
我就说，那你就别干了。
I I'm like, then quit.
你的生命很短暂。
Like, your life is short.
你有一个很棒的团队。
You have a great team.
转型。
Pivot.
做些完全不同的事情。
Do something completely different.
如果你已经失去了信念，那么在创业的世界里，你不应该继续做你现在正在做的事。
If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.
我想，有时候确实会有一些这样的时刻。
Sometimes there are moments of that, I imagine.
所以，可能在信念有多弱、这种状态持续了多久之间，存在一个范围。
And so there's probably some spectrum of just, like, how little conviction and how long you felt that.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
但与此同时，听我说，我们每个人都有起有落。
But at the same time, listen, we all have ups and downs.
我们都有好日子和坏日子。
We all have good days and bad days.
然而，我认为伟大的创业者内心深处绝对清楚，某样东西必须存在，他们会 ruthless 且不懈地坚持，直到它实现。
However, I do think that great founders are just they absolutely know in their core, you know, that something needs to exist, and they will just be ruthless and relentless until it does.
但如果你失去了这种信念，我真的不知道你是否还有继续下去的动力。
But if you lose that, I actually don't know if you have the fuel to to continue.
所以听好了。
So listen.
我不是说你不对。
I'm don't you're right.
不要在状态差的时候做出重大决定。
Don't make a bold decision on a bad day.
但如果这种信念普遍消退了，就要对其他选择保持开放心态。
But if the conviction, you know, generally dissipates, be open minded about other options.
你做了很多天使投资，接触过很多创始人。
You do a lot of angel investing, talk to a lot of founders.
你最看重什么？
What is it that you look for?
你觉得初创公司需要展现出哪些特质，才能让你觉得它有较大成功可能性？
What do you think is important for a startup to show you for it to feel like a good bet that it'll likely work out?
你认为哪些特质是重要的？
What what are some of the important attributes that you look for?
我会从团队和产品两个方面来谈。
I'll talk for a few things on team and then a few things on product.
完美。
Perfect.
在团队方面，我非常看重那些善于倾听、真正愿意学习、渴望打破现状的创始人，同时他们更重视自己所追求的使命，而非其带来的金钱回报。
On team, I really value founders who listen, who really learn, who long to shake shit up a bit, you know, and and and and also value the mission that they're on more than the money that it yields.
因为我认为，尤其是在没有收入的阶段，你必须被比收入更宏大、更远大的目标所驱动。
Because I do think that, especially during a period of time where you don't have revenue, you're gonna need to be motivated by something grander and bolder than revenue.
我也对那些特别擅长推销的创始人有本能的抵触，他们总是试图美化真相，回避困难的部分。
I also have an allergic reaction to founders that are real promoters, you know, who are constantly trying to sugarcoat the truth, who, you know, like to gloss over the the hard parts.
我一向钦佩那些对未来充满乐观、但对现状却非常务实甚至略带悲观的领导者。
I've always admired leaders that are optimistic about the future, but very pragmatic and somewhat pessimistic about the present.
因此，我和那些有强烈共鸣的创始人是这样的：他们说，这个市场有多大。
So the founders that I have, like, a great sort of chemistry with are people who are like, this is how big the market is.
这个产品有多棒。
This is how amazing this is.
我知道它必须存在，但我们也清楚还有很多问题要解决。
I know this needs to exist, but, you know, we've got a lot to figure out.
有些事情还没做好。
There are things that are not working.
我们没有这些数据集。
We don't have these datasets.
这些是我们正在挣扎的主要障碍。
These are the major obstacles we're struggling with.
这些才是让我夜不能寐的事情。
These are the things that keep me up at night.
这些都是真实的人，你知道，在那个充满波动和混乱的中间阶段，他们必然会经历这一切，他们的团队和投资者会接触到真实的状况，并能够参与其中、找到解决方案。
Those are real people and you know that in that volatile middle messy middle that they're gonna inevitably go through, that their team, their investors are gonna have the real truth and they're gonna be able to engage and find solutions.
所以我特别喜欢寻找这类创始人，同时对那些喜欢炫耀人脉、过度宣传、不太可能以这种方式合作的人保持高度警惕。
So I really love finding those types of founders and I and I'm very wary of kind of the name dropping, overly promoting folks who are unlikely to be able to partner in that way.
在产品方面，我寻找的是那种以对象模型思维来设计产品的人，我确信这样的产品在解决他们的问题时能够顺利扩展。
On the product side, I am looking for an object model way of thinking about a product that I am confident that will will will scale, you know, and as they as they solve their their problem.
当我提到对象模型时，我的意思是，当你看到产品时，能否清晰地理解它是如何运作的、你从哪里来、你要去哪里？
And when I say object model, what I mean is, is it clear whenever you're seeing the product, like how it works, where you came from, where you're going?
你知道，每次进行产品评审时，我总会问这三个问题。
You know, those are the three questions I always ask when I'm doing product reviews.
我是怎么来到这里的？
It's like, how did I get here?
我现在该做什么？
What do I do now?
那我接下来该做什么？
And what do I do next?
我觉得每个界面和每个产品体验，你都应该能回答这三个问题。
And I feel like every screen and every product experience, you should be able to answer those three questions.
有时候我会和一些团队交谈，他们说自己是以设计为导向的，说他们在打造一个了不起的产品，然后给我演示。
Sometimes I'll be talking to a team that says they're design driven, you know, says that they're building an incredible product, and they'll show me a demo.
但我一看，这简直一团乱。
And I'm like, this is all over the place.
根本找不到清晰、连贯的线索和对象模型来说明这个产品是如何运作的。
Like, there's no clean, clear breadcrumbs and object model for how this thing works.
他们怎么可能让用户顺利走过他们的转化漏斗？
How are they ever gonna get people through their funnel?
很明显，他们并不把这一点当作核心原则，这始终是一个警示信号。
Clearly, they don't value this as a core principle, and that's also always a red flag.
最后，我当然必须相信他们所解决的这个问题。
And then finally, I just obviously have to believe in the the problem they're solving.
所以，你知道，这些是我会思考的一些事情。
So, you know, those are some of the things I think about.
你主要关注消费领域，还是到处投资？
And you focus primarily on consumer or do you invest all over the place?
我这么问是因为有些人可能想联系你，或者嘿，斯科特，你想要
And I'm asking in case people want to reach out or maybe, hey, Scott, you want
好的。
to Yeah.
不。
No.
我相当中立。
I'm I'm pretty agnostic.
寻找以产品设计为导向的团队，你知道的，他们在创造那些真正需要存在的东西。
Look for product design oriented teams, you know, making things that need to exist.
除此之外，我尽量不那么教条。
Beyond that, I try not to be too prescriptive.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Excellent.
你有什么最后的建议吗？关于如何影响世界上成千上万乃至数十万听众构建产品的方式？
Any last words of wisdom that you think could impact the way people build products in the world, the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of listeners listening?
在进入非常激动人心的闪电环节之前，你还有什么想分享的吗？
Is there anything else you wanna share before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
有两件小事，一件关于我们当前所处的阶段，另一件关于我们为什么做这些事。
Two quick things, you know, one for the moment that we're in and then one for why we do what we do.
就我们当前所处的阶段而言，我们正处在一个资源受限的环境中。
For the moment that we're in, you know, we're in a resource constrained environment.
坦白说吧。
Let's face it.
我们所有人都会面临更少的资金、更少的人手，诸如此类的情况。
We're all gonna have less money, fewer headcount, all that kind of stuff.
我始终发现，足智多谋比单纯依赖资源更能让你走得更远，尽管过去七八年里，我们基本上是用资源去堆解决每一个问题。
And I've always found that resourcefulness, you know, brings you further than resources despite the fact that over the last seven to ten years, we've basically thrown resources at every problem.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
这根本无法扩展。
This is not scaling.
多花钱买服务器。
Throw more money at servers.
我的天。
Oh my goodness.
我们需要给社交媒体团队增加更多人手。
You know, we need more people on the social media team.
多招人，多砸钱在人员编制上。
Throw more people at head throw throw more money at head counts.
我们一直习惯用增加资源的方式来解决问题，而不是去重新思考：比如，我们能不能重构数据库的运行方式？或者重新设计团队处理客户服务请求的流程？
Like, we we've had a resources way of solving our problems as opposed to a, well, let's refactor how we run that database or let's refactor how that team answers customer service requests.
让我们引入新技术来提高效率。
Let's bring in new technology to make it more efficient.
让我们利用并尝试人工智能，看看它是否能帮上忙。
Let's leverage and play with AI to see if that can help us.
你知道，我们现在正处于一个必须依靠创造力和重构而非招聘和盲目投入资源来解决问题的时代。
You know, we are in this era now where we're being forced to be resourceful and to refactor as opposed to hire and and throw resources at problems.
我觉得这是一个绝佳的机会。
I think that's a great opportunity.
我觉得，正是在这样的环境下，最优秀的团队才能锻炼出持久竞争力。
I feel like this is where the best teams are gonna build that muscle that are going to go the distance.
这就是为什么所有风投都说，最出色的企业总是在这样的时代诞生，这简直成了老生常谈。
That's why all these VCs say it's so cliche that the best companies are always built in eras like these.
所以我的第一点是，各位，抓住这次危机带来的机遇。
So my one you know, my point number one is capitalize on the crisis, everyone.
你知道吗？
You know?
如果资源是牌，那么资源创造力就像肌肉。
It's a if if if resources are cards, resourcefulness is like muscle.
它会一直伴随着你。
It stays with you.
它让你更强壮，帮助你培养更好的直觉和更持久的卓越表现。
It makes you stronger, and it helps you, you know, have a better better intuition, you know, and and better, better performance over time.
然后，如果退一步看，我想鼓励大家认识到，风险投资领域里任何了不起的事情本质上都是例外。
And then I guess taking a step back, I would just encourage folks to recognize that, you know, anything anything amazing in the venture world is ultimately an exception.
关于你我刚刚讨论的所有最佳实践，以及我们读过的书里的各种内容，我总是提醒自己，归根结底，当你要做真正具有变革性的事情时，例外往往才是常态，任何非凡的成就都不可能通过平庸的方式实现。
And and with all the best practices, Lenny, that you and I just discussed and all the stuff that we read in books and whatever else, I always try to remind myself that, you know, at the end of the day, sometimes exceptions are the rule when it comes to doing something truly transformative and that nothing extraordinary is ever achieved through ordinary means.
因此，我们当然应该采纳这些最佳实践，认真听取我用惨痛代价换来的经验教训，但与此同时，如果所有人都说你疯了，那你要么真的疯了，要么你正抓住了什么了不起的东西。
And so while we should always, like, take these best practices and, sure, listen to some of the lessons I learned the hard way and whatever else, but at the same time, if everyone says you're crazy, you're either crazy or you're really onto something.
对此要保持审慎态度。
Take that with a grain of salt.
太棒了。
Love that.
说到非凡，我觉得让你谈谈你在Adobe的工作会很有意思。
Speaking of extraordinary, I thought it'd be cool to just give you a chance to talk about what you're doing at Adobe.
你正在参与哪些产品？
What are some of the products that you're working on?
人们可能还不了解Adobe正在发生什么，你认为他们应该知道些什么？
What should folks know about potentially what's happening in Adobe they may not be aware?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
谢谢你的提问。
Thanks thanks for asking.
对我们来说，我认为目前有三大趋势正在推动我们的战略，或者说三股变革浪潮。
You know, for for us, I would say there's really three trends that are driving or three waves of transformation, I would say, that are driving the strategy right now for us.
首先是人们正变得越来越有创造力自信。
One is just that people are becoming more creatively confident.
这真有点不可思议，我们五岁时在画画时最有创造力自信，而父母却会说，天哪。
It's kind of wild that we're, like, most confident as five year olds creatively when we're drawing and our parents are like, oh my god.
这太美了。
That's beautiful.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
把画贴在冰箱上吧。
Let's put it on the fridge.
但对大多数成年人来说，创造力自信却从此下降，这真的很令人遗憾。
And then creative confidence kinda goes down from there for most adults, and that's really sad.
借助生成式AI和工具，我们市场上有Adobe Express，我们的生成式AI产品叫Firefly。
And with generative AI and tools, we have something called Adobe Express in market, and our generative AI offering is called Firefly.
这类工具能让人立刻感受到更强的创造力自信。
These types of tools make people feel more creatively confident right away.
看到那些从不拿笔画画的人突然变得自信，真的非常惊人。
It's pretty amazing to see people that would never pick up a pen and draw are suddenly feeling confident.
所以我认为这是第一波浪潮。
So that's I would say that's wave number one.
我们之前稍微提到过的第二波浪潮是，创意专业人士现在可以探索十倍于以往的可能性范围。
Wave number two that we talked about a little earlier is the fact that creative professionals can now explore 10x the surface area of possibility.
这些工具让他们的效率大大提高。
These tools are making them so much more efficient.
有些人会说，天哪，创意专业人士要被取代了。
And some people are like, oh my gosh, creative pros are gonna be replaced.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
他们不会被取代。
They're not.
他们只会找到十倍更好的解决方案。
They're just going to find 10x better solutions.
他们将拥有探索更多可能性的能力。
They're going to have that capability to explore more possibilities.
设计之所以出色，就在于能够探索更广阔的空间。
That's what makes design great, is swearing more surface area.
我认为第三个让我着迷的浪潮是个性化。
And then I would say the third wave that's fascinating to me is personalization.
我想我们之前稍微讨论过这一点。
I think we talked about this a little bit.
应用程序会根据我们的需求来适应我们。
Like, apps will meet us where we are.
我认为每一个营销体验都将越来越针对我们每个人进行个性化。
I think that every marketing experience will be increasingly personalized for each of us.
每个商业体验中，他们都会知道我们是谁。
Every commerce experience, they'll know who we are.
他们会直接展示我们的鞋码，而不是别人的。
They'll just show us our shoe size and no one else's.
这些类型的变革将真正改变整个商业、内容、媒体以及其他所有领域。
You know, these sorts of transformations will really change the entire world of commerce and content and media and everything else.
Adobe 拥有一个庞大的数字营销业务，专注于实现其中一部分功能。
And Adobe has a big digital marketing business that is focused on enabling some of that.
因此，这些战略因素正是推动我们正在开发的新产品的动力。
So are the factors of strategy that I would say are driving some of the new products we have under development.
现在一切都讲究少说多做。
And now it's all about less talk, more ship.
我喜欢这一点。
I love that.
你得把这个做成标语。
You need a banner of that.
过去十年里，看到Adobe的成长真是太棒了。
It's been amazing to watch Adobe's rise over the last decade.
之前感觉它好像没什么进展，但突然间就变成了一辆不可阻挡的巨轮。
It just kind of felt like it was going nowhere, and all a sudden, it's it's a juggernaut.
所以，干得漂亮，Scott和所有参与的人。
And so, great work, Scott and everyone else involved.
但接下来，我们进入一个非常激动人心的闪电问答环节。
But with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
我给你准备了六个问题。
I've got six questions for you.
我们会尽量快速地完成。
We'll try to go through it pretty fast.
好吗？
Sound good?
好的。
Okay.
听起来很兴奋吗？
Sound excited?
我们开始吧。
Here we go.
听起来不错。
Sounds good.
我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？
What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
第一本是托尼·法德尔的《构建》。
First is Build by Tony Fadell.
托尼是一位非常出色、富有魅力且极具务实精神的产品创造者。
You know, Tony is just an amazing, charismatic, deeply pragmatic product builder.
他足够勇敢地同时涉足了原子和比特领域，正如他自己所说，这本书充满了智慧。
He's been brave enough to do both atoms and bits, as he says, his book is just chock full of wisdom.
你知道，我确实欣赏一些这类关于自然法则、权力法则的书。
You know, I I do I do appreciate, like, some of these kind of laws of nature, laws of power type books.
我喜欢心理学书籍。
I love psychology books.
我正试着回想一些让我印象深刻的书，主要是关于理解人类与生俱来的倾向。
I'm trying to think of some offhand that have really struck me, but understanding the the natural human tendencies of people.
我觉得《权力的法则》这本书谈到了数百年来的无数战争，以及是什么样的人类天性或不平等引发了大规模的叛乱和革命。
I think the laws of power, like, talks about tons of wars over centuries and, you know, what what what sorts of natural human tendencies or inequalities drove, you know, massive rebellions and revolutions.
这些洞见，你可能不信，其实能应用到我们做产品时的决策中，帮助人们感受到成功和高效。
These sorts of insights, believe it or not, parlay into decisions we make in products and and making people, feel successful and and and and productive.
所以，我不太确定。
So I I don't know.
我特别喜欢这些书，因为它们提醒我们人类的局限性，以及潜力和可能性。
I I love those books just because I think that they remind us of sort of the limitations and opportunities or possibilities of humanity.
最近一部最喜欢的电影或电视剧是什么？
What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?
我最喜欢的是那些关于宇宙、关于我们对黑洞认知的边界，以及太空中会发生什么的纪录片。
What I love is these, documentaries about, like, the cosmos and about the sort of the the edge of our understanding of black holes and, you know, and what happens out there in space.
我想不起来了。
So I don't remember.
我知道有一部叫《宇宙》的，在Netflix上。
I know one is called cosmos on Netflix.
有好几部这样的纪录片。
There are a few of them.
但在我的空闲时间，我会沉浸在这种系列节目中。
But in my downtime, I I get lost in in in some series like that.
你有孩子吗？一个或更多？
You have kids, one or plus one or more kids?
有。
Yes.
你正在做些什么来帮助他们为未来做准备？
What are you doing to help them plan for this future?
我一直在思考这个问题。
I think about this all the time.
你知道，我们的孩子在一个世界里会做什么呢？如果你相信文德·霍斯拉的预测，即80%的工作将被人工智能取代，那么人们会做什么呢？
You know, what are our what are our children going to do in a world where, you know, if you know if you believe Vinod Khosla's prediction that 80% of the work of 80% of jobs will be replaced by AI, what what will, what will people do?
正如我们之前谈到的，他们的创造力将得到释放。
As we talked about, their ingenuity will be unleashed.
这很棒。
That's great.
但最终，我始终回归到这样一个信念：如果人们充满热情，他们就会在某件事上取得成功。
But ultimately, I always revert back to this one belief that if people are passionate, they become successful in something.
所以我一直专注于确保他们找到自己真正热爱的事情。
So I've always just been focused on trying to make sure that they find something they're super passionate about.
即使他们现在热爱的事情将来未必成为他们的职业，也没关系，因为我相信，热情本身以及为热情采取行动，是一种肌肉记忆，一旦培养起来，就会持续发挥作用。我有一个女儿，她热爱骑马。
And it doesn't even matter if the thing they find now is the thing they do later, because I do believe that passion in itself and taking initiative on your passion is a muscle memory that once you develop it, you know, I have a daughter who loves horseback riding.
我不知道她会不会一直骑马，或者其他什么。
I don't know if she's gonna do horseback riding forever or whatever.
但我认为，她对骑马的这份热情，这种想要变得更好、不断学习和更多实践的渴望，本身就是一种可以复制的肌肉记忆。
But I think that the passion that she has for it, this and this desire to be better and to constantly learn more and do more, that in itself is like a replicable muscle memory.
所以我不知道未来会怎样，但我相信，有热情的人总能找到自己的路。
So I don't know what the future holds, but I believe that passionate people will always have a path.
太棒了。
Love that.
你在面试别人时，最喜欢问什么问题？
What's a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people?
有一个认真的问题，还有一个带点调侃的问题。
There's a real one and there's a snarky one.
对吧？
Right?
所以，嗯，我真的很喜欢去了解一个人是否善于自我反思。
So the, you know, I do I do love trying to understand if people are introspective, you know?
所以我喜欢问一些关于人们从自身中学到的东西，这些能揭示他们工作方式的局限性。
And and so I like asking about something people have learned about themselves that reveal the limitation in how they work.
你知道，这是一种测试自我反思的方式。
You know, it's a way for to test, like, introspection.
当一个人遇到瓶颈或挣扎时，他们能否保持开放和内省，还是只会责怪他人、推卸责任？
And once this person hits their limits, or struggles, can they be open and introspective, or are they gonna blame and point fingers?
所以我确实会问这个问题。
So I do ask that.
我也喜欢问：你觉得自己幸运吗？
I also like the question, like, do you consider yourself lucky?
我觉得这是个很有趣的问题，因为一些对自己现状和成就感到不安的人，可能不愿承认自己运气好。
I think it's a fascinating question because it also some people who are super insecure about where they are and how they got there might decline admitting luck.
那些心态从容的人应该承认自己是幸运的。
Those who are comfortable should admit that they were lucky.
我的意思是，我认为事实是我们所有人都非常幸运，也 certainly 有特权。
I mean, I think the truth is we're all very lucky and certainly privileged.
我只是觉得这总是一个有趣的对话。
I just think that that's always an interesting conversation.
最近你发现过什么特别喜欢的产品吗？无论是应用程序还是实体产品，有什么想到的吗？
What's a favorite recent product you've discovered app or physical product, anything that comes to mind?
我一直在使用一个叫 Q 的产品，拼写是 q-u-e-u-e，我想是这样的。
I've been playing with a product called Q, and it's q u e u e, I think.
它基本上是一种方式，可以跨所有流媒体平台为你想看的内容创建一个队列。
And it's basically a way to keep a queue of all of this content you wanna watch across every streaming platform.
因为现在流媒体平台上的内容太多了，你可以创建自己的观看队列，还能看到朋友的队列，以及了解你认识的人中哪些内容最常出现在他们的队列里。
And it's because there's so much content across so many streaming platforms and to make your own queue and then to see your friends' queues and to see what content is in most of the people you know's queues.
这实际上是一个关于人们想看或喜欢的内容的惊人图谱，我认为在这个内容来源多达数十亿的世界里，我们将来一定会需要这样的东西。
Like, it's actually an incredible graph of kind of stuff that people want to watch or have liked that I think we're gonna need in this world where there's just a billion sources of content.
我一定会去试试这个。
I'm definitely gonna check that out.
我一直在找这样的应用，晚上刷剧的时候特别需要。
I've been looking for an app like that of, like, obsitting it in the evening.
我到底该看什么？
What the hell should I watch?
网上所有的东西我都看过了。
I've seen everything that exists on the Internet.
这太棒了。
So that's awesome.
最近你发现或觉得有用的AI工具是什么？不是Adobe做的那种。
What's a favorite AI tool that you've recently discovered or find useful that isn't something Adobe has made?
好的。
Okay.
如果可以的话，我想提一下我投资过的一个产品。
Well, I'll I will mention, if it's okay, like a product that I did invest in.
当然。
Absolutely.
有一个叫Tome的产品，它可以把你想要做成演示文稿的叙事内容，通过AI自动生成包含图像和有力观点的初稿。
It's a product called Tome, and and they can take a narrative or that you want to put into a presentation and with AI basically create a, you know, just like a draft of this presentation with imagery and compelling points.
而且这简直就像你把任务丢给实习生，说：‘去给我弄点能用的东西回来。’
And it's pretty it's almost as if you like handed this off to an intern and said, come back to me with something I can work with.
然后突然间，它就立刻出现了。
And suddenly, it's, like, instantly there.
所以，这一直是个挺有趣的工具，玩起来很带劲。
So, that's been, like, a fun one a fun one to play with.
我会去试试这个。
I will check that out.
我们会附上这个链接。
We'll link to that.
这让我想起，凯文·凯利在蒂姆·费里斯的节目中谈到，AI和ChatGPT本质上就像一个实习生。
Also reminds me, Kevin Kelly on Tim Ferriss was talking about how AI and ChatGPT is basically an intern.
它们现在的技能水平就是如此。
That's like the level of their skill right now.
它们就像是在帮忙处理各种事务的实习生。
They're just this intern that's helping out with stuff.
我觉得这是对的。
I think that's right.
所以我们必须把它看作是一种资源，而不是限制，因为你知道，它回答的是‘如果会是什么样子’这个问题，而不是真正独立的思考。
And that's why we have to see it as a resource, but not a constraint because, you know, again, it's, you know, it's answering that question, what would it look like if, as opposed to doing true distinct thinking per se.
斯科特，这是我们第一次聊天，但我感觉我已经认识你了。
Scott, this is the first time we've ever chatted, but I feel like I know you.
你太棒了。
You are wonderful.
非常感谢你来到这里。
Thank you so much for being here.
最后两个问题。
Two final questions.
如果人们想联系你、了解更多，他们可以在哪里找到你？
Where can folks find you online if they wanna reach out, learn more?
听众们如何才能对你有所帮助？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
是的
Yeah.
不
No.
太棒了
Awesome.
听好了
Listen.
谢谢，伦尼
Thanks, Lenny.
你的播客和邮件可能是我发给合作产品团队的最常转发的精华内容和资源之一
And, you know, your your podcasts and your emails are probably among my more forwarded pieces of nuggets and resources that I send to product teams I work with.
所以，我要感谢你为我们整个领域提升了水准，能参加这个播客我感到非常荣幸
So thank you for elevating the field for all of us, I should say, and it's an honor to be on this podcast.
我很容易找到，访问 scottbelsky.com 或在你最喜爱的社交平台上搜索 scottbelsky 即可
I'm easy to find, just scottbelsky.com or at scottbelsky on your favorite favorite social network of choice.
而如今，我主要在implications.com上写作。
And, you know, implications.com is where I'm writing these days.
而且，我也欢迎大家分享他们正在做的事情。
And then, you know, and I I welcome I welcome folks to share what they're working on.
你知道，我就是喜欢收集尽可能多的数据点。
You know, I just love taking as much data points as possible.
我喜欢为人们连接各种点，促成相互认识。
I love connecting dots for people and making introductions.
我觉得，这可以为这个不断进步的产品世界做出贡献，我也欢迎大家随时联系我。
I feel like, you know, that can be a contribution to this whole world of better and better products, and I I welcome you to to reach out.
太棒了。
Awesome.
Scott，再次感谢你来到这里。
Scott, again, thank you for being here.
谢谢，Lenny。
Thanks, Lenny.
再见，各位。
Bye, everyone.
非常感谢你们的收听。
Thank you so much for listening.
如果觉得这次内容有帮助，欢迎在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或你最喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
同时也请考虑给我们打分或留下评论，这能帮助其他听众找到这个播客。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
你可以在lennyspodcast.com上查看所有往期节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com.
我们下一期再见。
See you in the next episode.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。