管理紧张、焦虑和倦怠 | 乔尼·米勒（神经系统掌控）

好问题。

Great question.

我建议两种方式都试试，尤其是早上做个练习，主要是为了养成习惯，慢慢适应过来。

So I like to kinda recommend both a morning practice, particularly to kind of build the the muscle of just of just doing it and getting used to it.

比如早上上班前、吃早餐前，花五分钟做一做，就这么简单。

So, you know, maybe five minutes in the morning before you start work, before breakfast, something like that.

这样你更容易在关键时刻想起：哦，我其实有这个工具可用。

And then you're more likely to remember that you kind of have access to that in the moment.

因为通常人一慌乱，根本想不起来该做什么，这往往是最后才被想到的事。

Because usually the challenge is that when someone is kind of in that, like, flustered state, remembering to do the practice is often the last thing that comes to mind.

所以最好连续坚持七到十天，每天固定练习，等你熟练了，到了真正紧张焦虑的时候，做起来就会自然得多。

So by kind of having a deliberate practice for, you know, at least kind of seven to ten days and and so that you get get the hang of it, then it feels much more natural to do it when you're feeling like, that that's kind of like playing the game on hard mode when you're when you're really stressed and anxious.

这正是你最需要它的时候，可偏偏也是你最不容易想起来去做的时候。

It's like, that's when you need it the most, but it's also when you're least likely to remember to do it.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

第一个放松练习是：吸气四秒，屏住呼吸四秒，然后缓慢呼气八秒，持续大约三十秒。

So the first exercise to calm you down is essentially breathe in four seconds, hold it for four seconds, breathe out slowly for eight seconds, and do that for about thirty seconds.

是这样吗？还是要做一分钟？

Is that right or for a minute?

是的。

Yeah.

我建议至少做一分钟到两分钟，刚才我们只是做了个简短的版本。

I I'd say for at least a minute or two, we kinda did a short shorter version.

另外，关键是要让呼气的时间是吸气的两倍。

I'll also add that the important thing is that the exhale is twice as long as the inhale.

如果八秒呼气太长，可以根据自己的肺活量和二氧化碳耐受度，改成三秒吸、六秒呼，或者两秒吸、四秒呼，甚至五秒吸、十秒呼。

So if exhaling for eight is too long, you could do three three six or even two two four or even five five ten depending on your your lung capacity essentially and your c o two tolerance.

明白了。

Okay.

明白了。

Good to know.

那 Espresso 呼吸法呢？当你需要提神的时候，就是通过鼻子把腹部的气快速排出来，你建议做多久？

And then the espresso breath when you need energy or you just kinda pump air out of your belly through your nose and you do that for how long would you recommend?

做两到三组，每组三十次。

Two to three rounds of 30.

好的。

Okay.

三十次泵气。

30 pumps.

对。

Yeah.

这种做法之所以有效，关键在于你之前提到的那个核心观点：我们的情绪状态其实是由身体状态决定的，而大脑往往会根据身体的反应来解释我们的情绪。所以，只要你能让身体放松下来，不再紧张，大脑就会自动觉得：

And, again, the reason this is effective and powerful is coming back to your original big insight that though our state is driven by what our body is doing, and our mind often explains what we're feeling based on what our body's doing so that if you can change the state of your body and become less nervous in your body, your mind will be like, alright.

一切都没问题。

Everything's fine.

对。

Yeah.

还有一件事我们可能还没提到，但我觉得很重要，那就是内感受或者身体觉知。

And and maybe something that we haven't touched on yet, but I think is important to add in, is this idea of interoception or somatic awareness.

我之所以提到这个，是因为如果你做了这个练习，却对自己的身体和感受毫无觉察，那它对你来说就没什么吸引力。

And the reason I bring it in is because if you you do this practice, but you're not really aware of your body and how you feel, then it'll be less compelling to you.

但如果你能留意身体的各种感觉，留意正在发生的变化，就更容易察觉到那些状态的转变。

But if you're kind of tuned into, like, sensations in your body, what's going on, you're more likely to notice the difference in the shifts.

很好。

Great.

那我们来深入聊聊这个。

So let's get into that.

这正是我特别想谈的一个点。

That was something I definitely wanted to touch on.

你知道吗，有个很棒的缩写词，能帮你更好地进行自我觉察。

You know, this awesome acronym to help you with this process of introspection.

那你能说说这是什么，以及怎么才能更好地觉察身体的状态吗？

So talk about what that is and then how to actually go about becoming better at being aware of what your body's doing.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实就是所谓的内感受，也被称为我们的第六感。

So it's it's this this idea of interoception, which is, known as, like, our our sixth sense.

简单来说，就是我们感知、追踪和体会内在状态的能力。

And, basically, it's our ability to kind of sense, track, and feel our internal landscape.

我喜欢用厨师来做个比喻，就像你训练味蕾去分辨甜、辣、鲜味一样。

And I like to use a metaphor of a chef in the same way that you you train your flavor palate for kind of sweet, spicy, umami, things like that.

你也可以训练自己的内感受力，更敏锐地察觉各种内在感觉——比如呼吸、紧张感、情绪变化，甚至觉察的质量和思维的质地。

You can also train your in interoceptive palate and become more aware of the the internal sensations, whether that's your breath, whether it's tension, whether it's moods and emotions, whether it's the quality of your awareness, the quality of your thoughts.

你越能觉察到这些，就越容易发现焦虑等状态的早期信号。

And the more kind of in tune with that you are, the more likely you are to notice the kind of early warning signs of something like anxiety.

因为通常来说，恐慌发作绝不会毫无征兆地突然发生。

Because usually, certainly a panic attack doesn't come out of nowhere.

身体里会有一连串细微的变化，最终导致焦虑。

There will be a kind of cascade of subtle things that happen in your body that eventually result in in anxiety.

所以如果你能尽早发现这些迹象，及时掐断它们，并练习一下这些方法，就能避免最糟糕的情况发生。

And so if you can catch those things early and kind of, like like, nip them in the bud and and do one of these practices, then you can avoid the kind of 10 out of 10 worst case scenarios.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我知道你推荐了一些具体的方面，让大家留意身体在做什么，以此来通过内感受的过程来理解自己的身体状态。

So I know that there's also specific things you recommend people pay attention to to understand what their body is doing as a process of inter Interoception.

对。

Yeah.

内感受，好的。

Intra okay.

那它具体是什么呢？

And what is it?

内感受。

Interoception.

内感受。

Interoception.

内感受。

Interoception.

它跟外感受相对，外感受是指对外部刺激的感知。

Opposed to exteroception, which is awareness of all the external stimuli.

明白了。

Got it.

我想在深入这个话题之前，你提到这算是我们拥有的另一种感官，我觉得这点特别重要，可能很多人之前都没注意到。

I guess before we can get to that, so you mentioned that it's like another sense we have, and I think that's a really important point that I think maybe people didn't catch.

我们通常都知道有五种感官，比如味觉、嗅觉、视觉和触觉。

So we have these five senses, obviously, taste and smell and vision and touch.

但你的研究和发现表明，其实我们还有另一种感官，只是大家普遍不太了解。

But you're finding and research showed, basically, this is another sense people don't really know we have.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这方面的研究其实挺多的，尤其是过去十年左右。

And and it has been studies, you know, quite quite a lot, especially in the last decade or so.

研究中有一些挺有意思的发现，我特别留意到几点。

And and there's a number of interesting kind of findings from the research that I found.

比如，注意力缺陷多动障碍往往伴随着内感受能力偏低，创伤后应激障碍或经历过创伤的人，内感受能力也会下降。

One being that, ADHD tends to correlate with low levels of interoception as does if if people have PTSD or trauma, again, interoception is lowered.

就我自己来说，前二十五年，我从脖子以下几乎没什么感觉。

And I'd certainly say for myself, you know, for the first twenty five years of my life, I was fairly numb from the neck down.

我对身体当时正在发生什么，几乎没什么觉察。

I was not very aware to what was happening in my body in real time.

最近我还在读一本叫《狗与狼之间》的书，讲的是华尔街交易员，研究发现，内感受能力越强的人，赚的钱越多，决策也更明智。

I was also reading a book recently called the the hour between dog and wolf, which looked at Wall Street traders, and they correlated higher degrees of interoception with basically making more money and making better decisions.

书里的核心观点是，当他们留意自己身体在特定时刻的反应时，就能捕捉到一些直觉性的信号，从而做出更好的判断。

And and I I think the the thesis was that by tuning into what their body was doing in certain moments, they they could pick up on things on on, like, more intuitive decision making, essentially.

所以我觉得你有一份具体的清单，建议人们关注某些方面，比如姿势、呼吸之类的，对吧？

So I think there's, like, a specific list of things that you recommend people pay attention to, their posture, their breath, things like that.

那这份清单具体包括哪些内容？

What is that list?

那我们又该怎么更好地做到这些呢？

And then how do we actually do this better?

是的。

Yeah.

我把它简化成一个字：A。

So I I simplify this to A.

E。

E.

这其实是个缩写，代表觉察、姿势和情绪。

Which basically is an acronym which stands for awareness, posture, and emotion.

我们一个个来，先说觉察，举个例子，我可以把注意力收窄，变得特别专注，身体也会跟着紧绷，有时候还会让人特别兴奋。

So, to kind of go through each one by one, awareness is, to give give an example, like, I could narrow my awareness and become re kind of really focused and just you kinda tense up, and it also is it's quite activating sometimes.

或者你也可以放松下来，扩大觉察范围，留意头顶上方的空间、身后的地方、脚下区域，这种做法通常能让人平静下来。

Or you can relax and expand your awareness and be aware of, like, the space above me, the space behind me, the space below me, and that is generally a kind of a a calming thing.

姿势这一点比较好理解，但确实，我们的姿势会直接影响感受。

Posture is fairly self explanatory, but, again, our posture affects kind of how we how we feel.

没错。

Yeah.

我明白了。

I see it.

调整一下姿势。

Shifting that.

对。

Yep.

然后是情绪，我把它包括在内，指的是那些随之而来的躯体或身体层面的感觉。

And then and then emotion, which I include kind of somatic or body based sensations which arise.

所以，这既包括整体的情绪基调，也包括我内心感受到的那种滋味或质感。

So both kind of what what is the overall mood and the flavor or the texture that I that I'm feeling.

比如，现在可能是兴奋。

Like, right now, maybe it's it's, like, excitement.

也许还带着一些喜悦。

Maybe there's there's some joy.

我感觉到肚子里有点发热，可能是呼吸带来的。

I'm noticing some, like, there's some, like, heat in my belly probably from the breathing.

对。

Yeah.

下背有点紧，应该是昨天健身留下的。

There's, like, a little bit of tightness in my lower back from working out yesterday.

所以就是试着去感知这种身体感觉的分布。

So just kind of sense kind of mapping that, landscape of sensation.

对大多数人来说，这简直就像一片未知的领域。

And and for most people, it's almost like it's like a like a terra incognito.

就像那些标着‘此处有龙’的地图一样。

Like, you have those maps of, like, here be dragons.

很多人身体里都有大片的感知盲区。

And for a lot of people, there's just these big kind of blind spots in their body.

这里的建议是，有个叫A的缩写。

And the advice here is so there's this acronym A.

E。

E.

当你感受到一些不太舒服的东西时，不妨想想这三点——通常回头看看这个就行。

The advice is think about this these three things when you're feeling something that you may not like, basically, something's going on slash just often come back to this.

我想象中，只要一想到‘APE’——觉察、姿势、情绪，就能用上它。

I imagine just like whenever you can think of, oh, ape, awareness, posture, emotion.

这就是怎么用这个方法吗？

Is that how to use this?

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

所以，你可以试着在一天开始前做点什么，比如泡杯茶的时候。

So, again, it can be something that you do kind of before you start your day, maybe, like, with with a cup of tea.

我喜欢喝茶，然后做个简单的身体扫描，检查一下那三个地方。

I I I like to drink tea and just kind of do, like, a like a body scan essentially and just check each of those three areas.

这招特别有用，尤其是当你思绪纷乱，或者感觉哪里不对劲的时候，别光在脑子里死磕，不如放低一点，回到身体里，把身体的感受也带进来。

And it's also it's it's really valuable, particularly if you're if, you know, if you're having racing thoughts or something doesn't feel quite right, instead of just tackling the problem on the length the the level of the mind kind of dropping down into the body and bringing that kind of into into the picture as well,

我觉得这真的很有帮助。

I find to be really helpful.

只要有机会，尤其是当你觉得状态不对时，就想想A。

Basically, as often as you can and generally when things are feeling a little off, just remember, A.

P。

P.

我的觉察怎么样？

Is my awareness?

我的姿势如何？

How's my posture?

对。

And then Mhmm.

我此刻有什么感受？

What am I feeling?

我是不是有点难过？

Am I feeling sad?

我是开心、兴奋，还是生气？诸如此类的情绪。

Am I feeling happy, excited, angry, things like that.

你好像也提到过呼吸。

I think you also talk about breath.

你列过一个清单，上面还有其他一些值得留意的方面。

Like, you have a list that you wrote about this of other things that you might wanna pay attention to.

其实，留意自己的呼吸也特别有力量。

Actually, finding paying paying attention to my my breath is doing is really powerful too.

所以我打算试试看，用类似冥想的方式来做这件事。

So I'm gonna try, like, a bay vape version of this.

我想试着去感受，呼吸是从哪里开始的？

I'm gonna try to think about what am I where is my breath coming from?

在那里，我有什么样的感觉？

What am I feeling there?

对。

Yeah.

呼吸和身体感受是另外两个特别有帮助的切入点。

So so the the the breath the breath and sensations are two other ones that are really helpful.

尤其是呼吸，很多人会有种‘邮件窒息’的现象。

The breath in particular, often people will there's there's an idea of of, like, email apnea.

人在看邮件的时候，常常不知不觉就屏住呼吸，这其实会让人更加紧张。

When people are checking their emails, they will, without noticing it, start to hold their breath, which is generally a very activating thing to do.

或者像我之前说的，如果你是用嘴巴呼吸，又浅又集中在上胸部，这也会让人很紧张；相比之下，你是用鼻子呼吸吗？

Or as I mentioned earlier, if your breath is through the mouth and shallow and into the upper chest, that will also be very activating versus is your breath through the nose?

是那种深入腹部、扩散到肋骨两侧的呼吸吗？

Is it kind of into the belly and into the sides of the rib cage?

整体感觉轻松吗？

And does it feel easeful, basically?

真正理想的状态，是呼吸时完全不紧绷。

Like, breathing without tension is is ideal.

我觉得用这个方法的时候，比如在开会时，如果感觉没那么自信，就回头想想这个缩写——Vape或者Ape，选一个你记得住的。

What I think about using this practice is if I were sitting in a meeting and just, like, not, like, not feeling, like, amazingly confident, just, like, come back to this acronym, vape or ape, whichever one you wanna choose.

问问自己：我现在感觉怎么样？

Just like, how am I feeling right now?

天啊。

Oh, wow.

我整个肚子都紧绷着，可能是因为担心接下来会发生什么，或者根本没在呼吸，又或者姿势特别差。

My whole stomach is clenched because I'm maybe nervous about what might happen, or I'm not breathing at all or my posture is really bad.

所以我觉得在开会的时候用这个真的很有帮助。

So I think in a meeting would be really helpful here.

也许你正准备参加一个Zoom会议或者重要的电话沟通之类的。

Maybe you're about to get on a Zoom or an important call or something like that.

对。

Mhmm.

也许是一对一的谈话。

Maybe I'm one on one.

还有别的吗？

Is there anything else?

有没有其他那种能让人突然意识到‘我得关注当下’的时刻？

Any other moments that might be good that kinda triggers for people of like, oh, I should really be aware of what's happening right now.

让我做个APE练习。

Let me do an an ape exercise.

对。

Yeah.

说到这个，如果你马上要参加一个会议，发现自己胃部紧绷，这其实是个很有用的信号——你得想想，为什么我会这样？

Well well, just to kind of piggyback on what you just said, if you're about to jump on a meeting and you're noticing that your stomach is clenched, like, that's actually really useful data to kind of be like like, Like, why am I like, why is this happening?

这是不是你的直觉在提醒你，别跟这个人谈这笔生意，或者感觉哪里不太对劲？

Is the like, is it your intuition kind of saying that, you know, maybe you shouldn't do this deal with someone or maybe like, something is off.

所以这其实是个提示，值得你深入探究一下。

And so it's a sign to kind of explore that more.

也可能是你被某句话或某件事触发了，只是现在才意识到。

Or it could be that you've been triggered by something or something that someone said, and you've only just realized it.

这样一来，你就多了一条线索，可以回头好好反思，或者进一步探索。

And then that's, again, like, more information or something that you can you can reflect on or go into.

最近你生活中有没有遇到过类似的情况？比如你心里没底，突然注意到身体有什么反应。

Is there anything in your life recently that is an example of this where you're feeling unsure and maybe you realize, oh, here's what my body's doing.

也许我该更留意这些身体的信号。

Maybe I should pay more attention to this.

其实上周，我刚做了一期播客对话。

Actually, last week, I I did a podcast conversation.

我本人也做了一个播客。

So I have a have a podcast myself.

结束通话后，我记得自己特别累，感觉整个人都快垮了。

And I got off the call, and I remember I felt or I got off the podcast, and I felt pretty, like, exhausted.

胸口一直紧绷着，呼吸也乱得不行。

And I felt like my there was this kind of tension in my chest and this and, again, my breath was kind of all over the place.

我这才意识到，那一周我给自己安排得太多了。

And I realized that I had I'd very much overcommitted myself for that week.

我排了一连串的播客访谈，一个接一个。

Like, I'd scheduled back to back podcast interviews.

其实播客根本不是我这个季度的重点工作。

The podcast wasn't even the priority for kind of, you know, what I'm focusing on in this in this quarter.

所以我决定把所有录制计划都推到夏天再说。

So I then made the decision to just push back all my episodes until, until the summer, basically.

这个例子太棒了。

I love that example.

我特别理解这种感觉。

I know that feeling very well.

我完全明白。

I'm sure.

你提到内感受这个概念时，把它和倦怠联系起来，我觉得你还说过，这是预防倦怠最有效的方法之一。

When you wrote about this idea of interoception, you connected it to burnout, and I think you talked about how this is one of the best tools to avoid burnout.

是这样吗？

Is that is that right?

我记的是不是没错？

Am I remembering that right?

如果是的话，你是怎么看待内感受、倦怠，以及如何整体上避免倦怠的呢？

And if so, how do you think about this and burnout and avoiding burnout in general?

很多人都有这种经历。

Something a lot of people experience.

是的。

Yeah.

我有一个想法，叫作‘羽毛砖头翻斗车’现象。

So I have this idea that I call the the feather brick dump truck phenomenon.

简单来说，当我们出现早期倦怠迹象时，身体通常会以微妙的方式给我们反馈。

And, basically, what that means is when we are showing early signs of burnout, our body will give us feedback usually in subtle ways in the beginning.

比如‘羽毛’阶段，早上醒来觉得有点累，甚至有点精疲力竭。

So the feather might be waking up in the morning and feeling a little bit tired, a little bit maybe a little bit exhausted.

到了‘砖头’阶段，你可能忽略了这些信号，或者根本没注意到。结果三四周后，你跟别人吵了一架，或者只是觉得特别烦躁、难受，最后彻底失控。

The brick, you know, maybe you ignore that or you don't notice it, and then three or four weeks later, you you have, like, a fight with someone or an argument or you just you just feel frustrated and terrible and you you you lose your lose your cool.

然后可能一个月后，甚至一年后，那辆满载的卡车就来了，比如爆发严重的健康危机，或者得了二型糖尿病，或者发生各种各样的事情，甚至可能被解雇。

And then maybe the the dump truck is a month later or even a year later, there's, like, a full blown health crisis or you develop type two diabetes or, you you know, there's a whole range of things or maybe you get fired.

就是会发生很多种不同的情况。

Like, there there's a bunch of different things that can happen.

不过，通常情况下，取决于你的敏感度，或者说你的内感受能力如何。理想状态下，你应该在刚感觉到像羽毛那样轻微的信号时就做出调整，而不是非要等到那辆满载卡车带来的剧烈痛苦降临才行动。遗憾的是，很多人都是这样，尤其是第一次经历职业倦怠的时候。

But, normally, depending on how, attuned or depending on someone's interoceptive capacity, like, ideally, you wanna notice when it's the feather and then make adjustments or shifts then and not have to wait until you experience the the full blown pain of the of the dump truck, which unfortunately is what happens to a lot of people, especially when they experience burnout for the first time.

这点非常重要，而且这种思考方式真的很棒。

This is such an important point and such a good way of thinking about it.

这让我想起安迪·约翰斯那期节目里提到的，就是那些小事是怎么一步步累积起来的，最后变得完全无法维持他原本的生活方式。

Reminds me of Andy Johns in the episode we had there of just how long and bowling to the episode there of just, like, how all these little things came up along the way and then eventually just became incredibly unsustainable to live the life that he was living.

对。

Mhmm.

本期节目由 Miro 赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Miro.

你有没有觉得自己的项目不够条理清晰，没达到你预期的那种状态？

Do you ever feel like your projects aren't as organized as you like them to be?

还是说，你的团队成员很难找到项目所需的所有文档、文件和背景资料？

Or it's way too hard for people on your team to find all of the documents and files and context that they need for their project?

Miro 能帮你简化工作流程，整理信息，让全队保持步调一致。

Miro helps you streamline your workflows, organize information, and get your whole team on the same page.

如果你想看看 Miro 能为你做些什么，可以看看我的 Miro 白板，这是 Miro 团队帮我搭建的，里面包含了我最喜欢的即插即用模板，比如用户旅程图、我最爱的一页纸模板，还有头脑风暴指南。

If you wanna see what Miro can do for you, check out my Miro board that the Miro team helped me create, which includes all of my favorite plug and play templates, like a user journey map, my favorite one pager template, plus a brainstorming guide.

我的白板上还留了位置，让你可以分享对这个播客的建议，并且回答我抛给你的一个问题。

My board also has a place for you to share suggestions for this podcast and also answer a question that I have for you.

你可以直接拿我的Miro看板，自己创建一个，感受一下是什么体验。

You can then take my Miro board and easily create your own to see how it feels.

记得试试我最喜欢的几个功能，比如便签、内联评论、图表，还有他们特别棒的绘图工具。

Make to sure check out some of my favorite features like the sticky notes, the inline comments, and charts, and also their really cool diagramming tools.

去 miro.com/lenny 看看吧。

Check it out at miro.com/lenny.

今天注册，前三个Miro看板免费使用，地址是 miro.com/lenny。

Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up today at miro.com/lenny.

用Miro，让最复杂的项目也变得简单。

Find simplicity in your most complex projects with Miro.

网址是 miro.com/lenny。

That's miro.com/lenny.

这种‘羽毛’具体有哪些例子呢？

What are some examples of this feather?

所以你的建议就是，留意那些小信号，说明你现在的生活方式已经撑不下去了。

So your advice here is just, like, pay attention to these little signs that, like, you're not living a a sustainable life right now.

能举几个例子吗？比如这些像羽毛一样细微的信号，暗示我可能需要做出一些改变？

What are some examples of these kind of feathery signs of, like, maybe I need to change something?

对。

Yeah.

我会结合一个我称之为“情绪债务”的概念来解释。简单来说，当我们的神经系统承受压力时，身体会启动一个“动员周期”。

So I'll tie this in with a concept that I call emotional debt, which is basically when our when our nervous system experiences stress, there's what's known as a mobilization cycle.

如果这个周期没有完成，或者我们没有在事后放松下来、让身体恢复平静，这种压力就会以“稳态负荷”的形式储存在身体里，也就是我所说的“情绪债务”。

And if that cycle isn't completed or we don't get to downshift or relax on the other side, that gets stored in the body as allostatic load, which I call emotional debt.

久而久之，这会让神经系统变得脆弱。

And over time, that creates fragility in the nervous system.

这种脆弱可能表现为对小事产生不成比例的强烈反应。

And so what that fragility can look like is anything from being impacted by small things in a kind of disproportionate way.

比如察觉到自己比平时更容易激动。

So noticing that you're more reactive than normal.

也许你变得有点急躁。

Maybe you're a little bit more snappy.

也许你会被一些小事惹恼。

Maybe you get frustrated by little things.

也许你的睡眠质量变差了。

Maybe your sleep isn't as good.

也许早上醒来还是觉得没休息好。

Maybe you wake up not feeling fully rested.

人际关系，尤其是亲密关系，往往是这些表现最明显的地方，工作中的关系也一样。

May maybe kind of relationships are often like, especially intimate relationships are usually a place that this shows up or relationships at work.

这些就是典型的早期预警信号。

So those are kind of the the classic early warning signs.

随着情绪债务的积累，就像技术债务一样——开发产品初期，问题不大。

And then as that emotional debt threshold increases in the same way that, say, with technical debt, if you're building a product, in the beginning, it's fine.

事实上，初期这么做甚至是必要的。

And in fact, it's even necessary in the beginning.

我们的身体能缓冲压力反应，这其实很有帮助，让我们还能正常运转。

Like, it's great that our body can buffer this stress response, because it allows us to function.

但如果我们不偿还这些技术债务或情感债务，时间一长，它们就会不断累积，甚至可能引发健康问题。

But if we don't pay off that technical debt or emotional debt, then over time, it accumulates and it's it can also come out through kind of health crises, health challenges.

情况会越来越糟，直到这笔债务被真正还清为止。

The it just gets basically progressively worse until until that debt is paid off.

我猜很多听的人心里都在说：对，没错。

I feel like a lot of people listening are like, yes.

我完全明白你的意思。

I know exactly what you mean.

那怎么才能意识到自己正在积累情感债务？又该怎样开始释放和偿还它呢？

How does one notice that you're building emotional debt, and then how do you start to release this debt and pay off this debt?

我接触的一些创业者客户，还有我们做的研究——我们采访了260位领导者，发现情感债务往往会一点一点积累，直到超出所谓的‘耐受区间’。

What what I've seen with, some of some of my founder clients and in in the research that we did where we we interviewed 260 leaders, what can often happen is that emotional debt will increase and increase and increase until it gets to a point where we are well outside what's known as a window of tolerance.

到了那个阶段，就会突然崩溃。

And at that point, there's, like, there's, like, a crash.

就像保险丝烧断了一样，整个人彻底耗尽了。

It's almost like the fuse switch blows, and there's there's exhaustion.

可能根本就懒得从沙发上起来。

Maybe there's, like, complete inability to get up off the couch.

有些人神经系统耐受力强，能连续撑五年、甚至十年，一直这样积累下去，久而久之，把这种永远紧绷、从不放松的状态当成正常生活了。

And for some people, people with, you know, large nervous system capacity, they can keep going for five years, maybe ten years, and they can kind of, like, keep building this up, and and it becomes normalized to kind of live in a way where you're always on and never really relaxing or coming down.

还有一个很关键的信号：如果你到了晚上，没有酒、CBD或者别的外部物质，就根本没法让自己平静下来，那说明你的情绪债务已经到了一个临界点。

Or or one really key sign actually is if you're not able to kind of naturally downshift or downregulate your nervous system at the end of a day without something like wine or or CBD or some kind of, like, external substance, that's a sign that you're you kind of reached a certain threshold of emotional debt.

那如果你已经多年拼命工作，该怎么开始还这笔债呢？

And then how does one start to pay off this debt if you've spent years just working way too hard?

你有一段关系，一直不太顺利。

You've had a relationship that just isn't working great.

我也说不准。

I don't know.

我觉得大多数人会去接受心理咨询，把这些问题说出来，慢慢梳理和解决。

Like, I imagine most people go to therapy and just kinda talk through all these things and try to work through the challenges.

如果你真的觉得自己就是这种情况，你有什么建议？

What do you recommend if you're just like, man, I feel like I have this.

那我该怎么办？

What what should I do?

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是个大问题。

Well, it's, I mean, that that's a big question.

说实话，我可能因此会被人反驳，但我并不太推崇只靠谈话的疗法，至少不推荐那些没有身体层面介入的治疗方式。

I'm actually I I probably get some pushback for this, but I I'm not a big fan of talk therapy alone or at least therapy that doesn't have a somatic or body based component.

根据我对神经系统以及压力储存方式的理解，光是动嘴说说、停留在理智层面，并不能真正触及问题的根源。

And from from my understanding of the nervous system and and and how we store this this stress, just talking about things and keeping things on the level of the intellect doesn't actually address the root of the challenge.

我们需要做的是营造一种安全感，让人能深入那些被压抑的情绪反应，完整地体验它们，让身体的应激反应自然完成。

What what we need to do is create a certain sense of of of safety to kind of go into those buffered emotional responses and feel them all the way through and allow that mobilization mobilization reflex to complete.

举个我个人的例子，我住在巴厘岛的时候，做过好几百次呼吸疗愈，就是通过特定的呼吸方式进入一种意识改变的状态。

And so, to kind of give a personal example, I, when I was living in Bali, I did kind of several 100 breath work journeys where you kind of breathe in a certain way to get into an altered state.

在那种状态下，那些五年前、十年前发生的事，就会浮现在脑海里。

And then in that place, these these memories would arise of these these things that happened, you know, five, ten years ago.

我的身体会不自觉地动起来，或者突然涌出愤怒。

And my body would like, it would either move a certain way or the anger would come through.

有时候会出现悲伤或哀痛。

Sometimes there would be sadness or grief.

身体里常常积压着很多情绪，它们只是需要被允许表达出来，然后自然释放。

Often, there's there's a lot of, stored emotion that's held in our body that just needs permission to kind of be felt through and and be released.

对我来说，这是一段重新学会与愤怒、哀痛，甚至羞耻和平共处的旅程——我允许自己去感受那些长期积存在骨盆里的负面情绪。

And so for me, it was a journey of coming into, like, right relationship with my with my anger and and my grief and, honestly, my shame as well, like, giving myself permission to feel this, like, gunk that had been stored in my in in my pelvis.

我不是说你非得去巴厘岛做两百次呼吸练习。

So I'm not saying you have to go to Bali and do 200 breath work journeys.

那确实是一种方式，但不是唯一路径。

Like, that's definitely not that's I mean, that that's that's that's a path.

但首先，像我说的，要培养对身体内部的感受力，意识到身体里确实存在紧张和积压的情绪。

But first, it it begins with, as I said, cultivating interoception and even being aware that there is this tension, there is there are these things in your body.

其次，要练习自我调节，这样当这些情绪浮现时，你才不会被淹没。

Secondly, having the practice of self regulation so that if these things come up, you don't get overwhelmed.

你能让自己沉静下来，回到身体里。

You're able to downshift in ground.

第三点，是我所说的‘情绪流动性’，也就是为各种情绪的自然涌现创造接纳的空间。

And then thirdly, it's the practice of what I call emotional fluidity, which is basically creating the conditions of welcoming the full spectrum of emotions as they arise.

很多时候，有个引导者或身心治疗师会很有帮助。

And often, it's very helpful to have a a guide or or or a somatic practitioner.

我特别喜欢躯体体验疗法。

I like somatic experiencing.

哈科米疗法也是我非常推崇的两种方式。

Hakomi are two modalities I'm a big fan of.

这是一段旅程，一个过程，具体多久要看你已经麻木了多久。

And, yeah, that's that's a journey and a process, and it depends, you know, how many years you've been operating in a in a slightly numbed way.

每个人的情况都不一样，但第一步是关注并倾听身体，然后真正对身体里有什么产生好奇。

And it's it's different for everyone, but it begins by tuning into and listening to the body and then having, honestly, curiosity about what is what is there.

接着就跟着这份好奇走，身体自然会告诉你，哪些东西已经准备好被看见了。

And just following that curiosity, and the body starts to kind of show you what is what is ready to be seen.

我很认同这一点，它总是回到我们最初的那个起点，也就是我们的感受其实是一个自下而上的、基于身体的系统。

I love that it always comes back to kind of the original place we started, which is that the way we feel is a very bottom up body based system.

并不是我们先感觉到某种情绪，然后身体才变得紧张。

It's not we feel something and our body gets nervous.

而是身体先变得紧张，然后我们才反应过来，说哦，原来我紧张是因为这个。

It's our body gets nervous, and then we're like, oh, here's why I'm nervous.

所以你的建议就是多关注如何帮助身体释放掉那些累积的压力和负担。

And your advice is just focus a lot on helping your body release the stuff that you built up this debt.

另外，当你感到紧张时，专注于让身体进入放松状态，而不是试图说服自己‘一切都会好起来的’。

And then also just when you're nervous in the moment, focus on getting your body to a state versus trying to convince your mind now everything's gonna be okay.

对。

Mhmm.

没错。

Mhmm.

确实如此。

Exactly.

顺便提一下治疗这条路。

And specifically on the therapy route, just to touch on that.

所以你的建议是，如果你去找心理咨询师，而且你觉得我们刚才聊的那些情况挺严重的，那就找那种以躯体为导向的疗法，也就是关注身体的。

So your advice there is if you were to work with a therapist and you feel really you feel a lot of this, stuff that we're talking about is focus on a somatic oriented therapy where it's body Mhmm.

对，是关注身体的，而不是光靠思考和谈话来处理问题。

Oriented, not just thinking about it and talking through stuff.

而是要真正让身体去接受和消化。

It's actually convincing your body.

这其实就是一种帮助身体释放这种压力的方法。

This is gonna be here's a way to helping your body release this debt, essentially.

没错，本质上就是这样。

Essentially.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

你能清楚地回忆起五年前、十年前、甚至十五年前那个挑战的每一个细节。

I I mean, you can you can understand in, you know, precise detail about whatever the challenge was from five, ten, fifteen years ago.

但如果你没法把那些记忆和身体里的相应感觉联系起来，那就麻烦了。

But if you're unable to connect it to the the correlating, like, sensations in the body.

比如说，我想象一下，昨天有人冲我大喊，我一回想起来，

Like, usually, if if, say I don't know if I was to imagine someone shouted at me yesterday, and I I think about that.

身体通常会有一些对应的反应。

There's usually a correlating kind of, somatic sensation.

神经科学家达马西奥管这叫‘躯体标记’。

The the neuroscientist, Damasio, calls it a somatic marker.

通过留意这些躯体标记，然后自己慢慢跟着那种感觉走，让当时被压抑的情绪自然释放，这就是我们一点一点偿还情绪债务的方式——一次处理一个。

So by tracking the somatic markers and then either on your own, just kind of following that sensation and allowing whatever emotion was present at the time to complete, that is the way that we kind of by we we slowly pay off that emotional debt by, like, one one process at a time.

所以，也许我们可以回到这个问题：如果有人在听，他可能会想，我是不是也在积累情绪债务？

So maybe coming back to this question of say someone is listening and wondering, am I building emotional debt?

我是不是在忽略那些像羽毛一样轻却不断堆积的事情？

Am I ignoring things that are these feathers?

那情绪债务积累起来会有什么表现呢？举个例子，这种创伤——不管你怎么叫它——会在身体里怎么体现？

What are signs and just, I don't know, examples of this of emotional debt being built up, of this trauma, whatever you wanna call it, being built up in the body?

我也说不准。

I don't know.

是不是只要一感到特别紧张，就是情绪债务在积累？

Is it just like anytime you feel really nervous, that's emotional debt.

是不是当你明明知道该立刻处理的事，却硬压下去的时候，就是在积累情绪债务？

Is it anytime you push something down that you are pretty sure you should deal with in the moment?

那就是情绪债务。

That's emotional debt.

能举几个例子吗？这种债务具体会有什么感觉，会有什么外在表现？

What are just, like, some examples of what that feels like and looks like?

对。

Yeah.

通常表现为神经系统失衡，比如一个人的呼吸方式就可能出问题。

So it's typically different forms of nervous system dysregulation, and that shows up as you know, it could be someone's breathing pattern.

比如，如果一个人长期处于交感神经活跃或过度警觉的状态，总是提心吊胆，时刻在找最坏的可能性。

Like, if if they're constantly in this sympathetic or hypervigilant state, if they're always, you know, tracking for things, looking for the worst case scenario.

另一个很常见的表现，尤其在科技行业特别明显，就是整个人完全困在脑子里，整天活在想法和思绪里。

Another common one, and this is particularly true in the tech sector, is, being very much in the head and living in the thoughts and the mind the entire time.

这是一种心理上的疏离，本质上是一种自我保护机制，因为身体里的那些感受实在太让人不舒服了。

And there's a form of disassociation that happens as a kind of protection mechanism essentially because it's it's uncomfortable to be with the sensations in the body.

再加上社会普遍奖励那些善于解决问题、整天动脑筋的人，这种模式就这样持续了多年，甚至几十年。

And because, society tends to reward people for solving problems and being in their mind, that is a a pattern that continued for many, many years or even decades.

还有一种很明显的表现，就是情绪反应过度——对某个情况的反应跟实际发生的事完全不成比例。

Other ones are I I I think the most obvious one for people is emotional reactivity where your response to a certain situation is disproportionate to what what's happened.

比如说，你跟我说：'这话说不通。'

So so, like, for example, if you said something to me of, like, that doesn't make any sense.

然后我就一下子僵住了，这其实带出一个关键点：大多数人有两种不同的反应模式。

And and I was like, I I freeze may and and this is another important point that most people have two two versions of reactivity.

有些人会僵住、退缩、关闭自己、抽离；而另一些人则会变得更具攻击性，放大自己，直接反击。

Some people will kind of freeze, withdraw, shut down, and disconnect, and other people will, like, become more aggressive, become bigger, and attack and, like, fight back.

了解自己在面对冲突时倾向于哪种反应模式，对我来说通常是退缩、僵住然后关闭自己。

And kind of knowing which way you tend to orient most for me, it's usually shrink and freeze and and shut down.

清楚自己的反应模式，同时留意身体在发生这种情况时的感觉，真的很有帮助，这样你就能意识到：哦，那个状态又来了。

Knowing what your pattern is and and also knowing what the sensations are when this happens, it's really helpful for you to be like, oh, that thing's happening.

我现在的优先事项是先让自己慢下来，在身体里找到一种安全感，然后再去互动、做决定、进行沟通。

My priority now is to downshift and kind of find a sense of of of of safety basically in the body and then interact, then make the decision, then have the conversation.

因为如果你一直从那种应激反应的状态出发，通常不会有什么好结果。

Because if you can keep going from that place of reactivity, like, nothing good happens from that place.

在那种状态下，很难做出什么明智的决定。

No great decisions were made from that place.

所以，这时候就需要有内感受觉察力，意识到：哦，原来身体里正在发生这些。

So, again, that's a place where having the interoceptive awareness know, oh, this is what's going on.

然后能够让自己冷静下来，找回那种：嗯，我还好，没事的感觉。

Being able to then downshift your system, of access a sense of, oh, like, I'm I'm okay.

其实，情况也没那么糟。

Actually, this isn't so bad.

从那里继续往前走，是一种非常实用、特别有用的能力。

And then moving on from there is is a profoundly, like, practical and just useful skill.

差不多也是这个意思，你曾经写过，如果你能真正感受到情绪，这就构成了巨大的优势，你是这么形容的。

Kinda along these same lines, you wrote somewhere, this idea that you have a big competitive advantage if you feel the feels is the way you described it.

你还有印象吗？

Does that ring a bell?

如果有，能不能分享一下，为什么这一点特别重要，尤其是在工作场合？

And and if so, what can you share around that, just why this is so powerful, especially in the workplace?

是的。

Yeah.

我想我是在某一篇随笔里提到过这个观点。

So I I think I wrote about this in one of the every essays.

那篇文章的标题大概是‘最好的决策都是有情感的’。

I think the title was the best decision making is emotional.

我当时其实是想挑战一下这个说法。

And I basically wanted to kind of poke at the phrase.

我在推特上看到有人说，事实胜于情感。

I I think I saw someone on Twitter say, fact over feelings.

意思是别让情绪毁了好的决策。

Like like, don't let emotions ruin good decision making.

关于这个话题，我能说的太多了，但简单来说，有一位著名的神经科学家达马西奥做过一项里程碑式的研究。

And, yeah, there's there's so much that I can say about this, but, basically, there was a, a landmark study by this guy, Damasio, who's this kind of famous neuroscientist.

他研究过一个叫埃利奥特的病人。

And he studied a patient called Elliot.

埃利奥特脑里长了肿瘤，手术切除后，就完全丧失了感受情绪的能力。

And Elliot had a tumor in his brain that was removed, and it basically meant that he was unable to feel emotions.

他的整个情感系统都被清空了。

So his entire emotional capacity was removed.

结果他从一个事业有成、婚姻美满的商人，变成了离婚、破产，连午饭吃什么都决定不了。

And Elliot went from being a successful married businessman to divorced, broke, and unable to, like, choose what he could have for lunch.

连最基础的生活选择都做不了，原因就是他大脑里负责情感的区域失效了。

Like, he was unable to make the most basic life decisions, and it's because he didn't have access to that emotional center in his brain.

我们的大脑其实就像一台预测机器。

And so our brain is is like a prediction making machine.

正如我之前提到的，身体会不断输送大量感官信息过来。

And as I mentioned earlier, there's this highway of sensory data that's coming up through the body.

如果我们做决定时忽视这些信号，就会错过很多重要的线索。

And if we don't listen to that when we're making decisions, then we're we're losing out on a lot of information.

我接触的客户常出现这种情况：如果他们不想体验某种情绪，比如讨厌冲突或愤怒，就会潜意识地做出选择，只为避开那种感受。

And what what tends to happen, I see this in clients that I work with, is if they are avoiding feeling a certain way, let's let's say that they don't enjoy feeling conflict or anger, then they will make decisions subconsciously to avoid feeling that way.

这会形成巨大的偏见和问题——人们做决定，往往只是因为害怕某种情绪。

And it it becomes, you know, a huge bias and a huge problem because people make decisions because they're afraid of feeling a certain way.

但如果你能坦然接纳决策后可能出现的任何情绪，就能更清晰地做选择，而不是被情绪牵着走。

And if you're, on the other hand, able to just, like, welcome and be with whatever emotions would arise on the other side of a decision, you're able to kind of decide clearly, instead of being skewed one way or the other.

说起来容易，做起来难。

Easier said than done.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得过于关注自己的感受会有负面影响吗？

Do you find there's ever a downside to being too in touch with what you're feeling?

我觉得自己并不是那种特别在意自己感受的人。

I find like, I'm actually not, like, a an feeler of what I'm feeling kind of person.

我情绪比较稳定，部分原因就是我很多时候不太清楚自己到底在感受什么，也许这是个需要解决的问题。

Like, I'm pretty stable partly because I'm not, like, super in tune with what I'm feeling a lot of times, and maybe this is a huge problem that I need to deal with.

不过我也不太确定。

But I don't know.

到目前为止，情况还算不错。

It's worked out okay so far.

我想，你是不是偶尔也会觉得，其实没必要那么较真。

I guess, do you ever find that sometimes it's okay.

有时候，比如你不需要时刻都清楚到底是什么在伤害你或让你痛苦，对吧？

Sometimes, like, you don't need to know exactly every moment, anything that's hurting you or causing you pain?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

It's it's a good question.

有些人确实对身体内部的感觉特别敏感，这种状态可能会让人不堪重负，这时候我建议通过呼吸练习来逐步提升耐受力，帮助自己平静下来，恢复正常运作。

And and some people do have, you know, a very high interoceptive capacity, and that can be overwhelming, in which case, would recommend focusing on the breathing practices to to build that capacity to downshift so you're able to just function.

确实有不少人会被日常生活中的各种刺激压垮，比如开车在车流里穿梭。

And, yeah, there's there's definitely people who, are overwhelmed by the stimuli of day to day They're being out in traffic.

他们特别容易被搞崩溃。

Like, they're very easily overwhelmed.

对这类人来说，提升神经系统承受压力的能力很有帮助，方法可能包括去桑拿和冷水浴，或者循序渐进地接触压力源，再慢慢放松下来。

And for those people working on increasing nervous system capacity to kind of hold that amount of stress, maybe it's through sauna and cold plunge or maybe it's through, like, gentle titration of of stresses and then and then downshifting.

这其实非常有价值。

Like, that's actually really valuable.

我还想说，能够良好地应对压力——这一点对很多高功能人群特别重要，而你的听众里，估计有不少就是这类人。

I'd also say that the the ability to kind of function well or or this applies to kind of, like, high like, a lot of high functioning people, which is is probably honestly a lot of your audience.

在当下，当某些事情突然发生时，能快速调整状态，其实特别有用。

It's it's very helpful kind of in the moment to kind of like, let's say something comes up.

你需要有能力缓冲强烈的情绪，撑过会议，撑过任何正在发生的事。

You you want to be able to buffer intense emotions and say, get through the meeting, get through whatever it is.

这确实是一项非常有用的技能。

Like, that's it's a very helpful skill.

但如果你做完之后，不给自己留出空间来平复情绪，允许自己去感受那些被引发的感受，时间久了，情绪债务就会越积越多。

But if you don't then give yourself spaciousness afterwards to downshift and allow yourself to feel whatever was brought up by that experience, you're going to be adding to this emotional debt over time.

正如我提到的，有些人可能只是……

And as I mentioned, some people, they might only yeah.

可能要过一年，才会出现崩溃或倦怠。

It might be a year before there's some kind of breakdown burnout.

另一些人，可能需要更长的时间。

Other people, it might be it might be longer.

通常，情况拖得越久就越糟糕，因为这会引发长期的健康危机，到时候无论花多少钱、花多少时间，都很难修复已经造成的伤害，真的很令人痛心。

And, usually, it's more unfortunate in the longer case because it it creates, like, a long term health crisis, and then no amount of money or time is able to repair the damage that has been done, which is, can be really tragic.

我和安迪·约翰斯的对话，就是一个很好的例子。

My chat with Andy Johns is a great example of that happening.

是的

Yeah.

安迪就是一个绝佳的例子。

And Andy's a and he's a superb example.

我很欣赏他对自己经历所展现的坦诚与脆弱。

And, you know, I I love his vulnerability and honesty in what he's been through.

对

Yeah.

如果你对这个话题感兴趣，一定要看看这一集。

I think if you're interested in this topic, definitely watch that episode.

没错

Mhmm.

你经常提到的另一个练习是这个概念。

Another exercise that you talk a lot about is this idea.

我觉得它叫NSDR。

It's called NSDR, I think.

对。

Mhmm.

没错。

Mhmm.

说说这个方法，它在什么情况下有用，该怎么使用。

Talk about that and when that might be useful, how to go about using this tool.

是的。

Yeah.

NSDR 是安德鲁·休伯曼提出的一种练习，你前面提到过他。

So NSDR was a practice coined by Andrew Huberman, who you mentioned earlier.

这其实就是从科学角度对瑜伽眠法的一种诠释，而瑜伽眠法是一种古老的瑜伽实践。

And it basically, it's it's a more scientific lens on the practice of Yoga Nidra, which is kind of an an ancient yoga practice.

我特别推崇这个方法，自己几乎每天都会做，大概十五到二十分钟。

But I I'm a huge fan of it, and I do it myself most days for kind of fifteen to twenty minutes.

具体来说，就是你躺下来，戴上眼罩或者遮住眼睛，然后听一段引导音频。

Basically, what it looks like is you you lie down, put on an eye mask or blindfold, and you listen to a guided audio.

我自己录过一些，可以在节目简介的链接里分享这些内容吗？

I can I I've recorded some myself so I can share these in the in the show notes links?

顺便说一句，你的声音录这个特别合适。

Your voice would be so good for these, by the way.

如果真是这样，那你算是找到适合自己的方向了。

I if this is we found your calling.

太好了。

Nice.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得做这个特别有意思。

It's it's really fun for me to do.

不过，它主要包含一个引导式的身体扫描过程。

But, basically, what it involves is a a guided body scan.

所以这也是练习内感受的好方法，因为之前我没提到一点：当体内有皮质醇时，它基本上会起到一种麻木的作用。

So this is also a great way to practice interoception because it's something that I didn't mention earlier was that when there's cortisol present in our body, the cortisol basically acts as a numbing agent.

所以要察觉这些感觉就难多了。

So it's much harder to kind of tune into those sensations.

但用这个方法，我觉得这是一个十四分钟的引导式NSDR练习。

But using this, I I think it's a fourteen minute guided NSDR practice.

你基本上就是躺着。

You're basically lying down.

会有个引导式的身体扫描。

There's a there's a guided body scan.

背景里还放着舒缓的音乐。

There's, like, relaxing music in the background.

听完之后，你会觉得像睡了两个小时的午觉一样。

And by the end of it, you feel you feel like you've had, like, a two hour nap.

感觉特别棒。

Like, it feels incredible.

尤其是像我这样下午容易犯困的人，如果把这段练习安排在下午一点到三点之间，就能让你下午重新打起精神，不至于一整天结束时瘫在沙发上。

And particularly for people who, like myself, tend to get tired in the afternoons, if you kind of space this out, usually between, like, one and 3PM for me, that will give you a second wind in the afternoon, and it'll mean you won't kind of end the day collapse on the sofa.

所以我觉得这对提升内感受能力特别有帮助。

So I I think it's great for improving interoception.

它能让你的身体从整天紧绷的交感神经状态中放松下来，慢慢恢复平静。

It's it's good for allowing your body to downshift and relax instead of being in that kind of high tone sympathetic state all throughout the day.

这就相当于给身体放了个假。

So it gives you gives your body a break.

而且真的特别舒服。

And it's just it just feels really good.

说实话，这可能是我所有教学内容里播放次数最多的一个练习。

Like, on honestly, it's it's probably my most played practice of everything that I teach.

很多人都每天都会听。

Just people listen listen to it every day.

我也会把链接放在节目笔记里供大家参考。

So I'll I'll share that in the show notes as well.

如果你觉得自己情绪上欠了不少债，那这个练习确实是个很好的开始。

And I imagine if you feel like you've built this emotional debt, this would be a really good exercise to start to do.

是吗？

Is that right?

是的。

Yeah.

简直太棒了。

It's it's fantastic.

说实话，很多人连起床、正常做事的力气都没有。

I I mean, most people there's some people who struggle with, you know, having enough energy to kind of get get out of bed and function.

但我想，你节目的听众，尤其是住在硅谷的人，他们的难题其实是不靠外界手段就能让自己放松下来。

But, again, gen I I imagine listeners to your show, people that live in Silicon Valley, their challenge is is the downshifting without external substances.

所以，NSDR 是一种非常好的方式，能增强腹侧迷走神经的活性，帮助身体从持续紧张的状态切换到放松状态。

And so NSDR is a really great way of strengthening that ventral vagal tone, which is our body's capacity to go from, like, on kind of go go go to then relaxing.

我最近采访了凯文·凯利，他提到过一句话：如果你有出色的工作习惯，那也得配上出色休息的习惯。

There's a quote from Kevin Kelly that I I interviewed recently, and he said, if you have a great work ethic, that needs to be matched with a great rest ethic.

我觉得，真正训练自己在压力后学会放松的能力，这一点在绝大多数人的日常规划里完全是缺失的。

And I think that that kind of piece of of actually training our capacity to downshift after stress is just completely missing from most people's, playbooks.

我觉得很多这类建议，比如你听 Tim Ferriss 和 Huberman 的，每个人都会列出一堆你每天该做的事，结果清单特别长，要做的事情太多了。

I think with a lot of this sort of advice, if you listen to Tim Ferriss and Huberman and everyone's got this, like, stuff you should be doing every day list, and it ends up being so long and there's so many things to do.

冷水浴、桑拿。

Cold plunge, sauna.

那你自己最常练习或者反复回归的是哪一项？或者说，在所有我们聊过的内容里，你最推荐大家每天尝试、且效果最显著的是什么？

What is it that you practice or come back to slash what would you recommend people try to do daily that is most impactful of all the stuff we've talked about?

首先，多尝试几种不同的练习，看看你最喜欢哪种，然后留意练习前后的感受变化。

First, experiment with a bunch of different practices and see which you enjoy and and notice how you feel before and then how you feel afterwards.

这才是关键所在。

That's kind of the key.

因为一旦你体验到那种舒服的感觉，你就没必要强迫自己或者靠意志力去做了。

Because once you once you know that it feels good, you're not gonna have to, like, force yourself or motivate yourself to do it.

你会自然而然地去做，因为你清楚做完之后感觉会非常好。

You'll just do it naturally because you know if you'll feel great afterwards.

我建议一开始从最简单的开始。

I would recommend starting really simple.

所以先从最简单的开始，比如四八呼吸法，或者哼鸣，早上花个两分钟做一下就行。

So starting with, like, the the four four eight breathing, or humming, doing that in the morning for, like, just just, like, two minutes.

刚开始两分钟就足够了。

Like, two minutes in the beginning is enough.

另外我也推荐你至少试一两次NSDR（非睡眠深度休息）练习。

And I would also recommend listening to the NSDR practice at least once or twice.

如果你在家办公，那挺方便的，比如午饭后之类的时段就可以做。

If you work from home, it's it's pretty easy, you know, after after a lunch break, something like that.

晚上回到家也可以做。

Could also be in the evening when you get home as well.

有些人用它来帮助入睡。

Some people use it to to help fall asleep.

最后我想推荐的是，如果你有条件、能找到的话，找一位躯体治疗师或躯体心理治疗师，这真的能彻底改变你的生活。

And then the the final thing that I would recommend is is if you're if you have the resources and you have access, finding a somatic practitioner or somatic therapist is is so life changing.

我是说，做完那两百多次呼吸练习后，我整个人都脱胎换骨了。

I I mean, I I emerged a completely different human on the other side of the kind of 200 breath work journeys.

我的生活体验真的完全不一样了。

Like, I have a different experience of of life, basically.

释放了太多东西，连声音都变了。

Released so much even my voice sounds different.

如果你听我四五年前录的播客，我的声音音调高多了。

Like, if you listen to the podcast episodes I recorded four or five years ago, my voice is is higher pitched.

就是听起来完全不一样了。

It's like, it's it's it just sounds different.

音色也变得更有共鸣了。

It has, like, a different resonant quality to it.

真的吗。

Wow.

明白了。

Okay.

太棒了。

Awesome.

你这下算是总结得差不多了。

So you've kind of summarized.

我本来还想把你给的建议都归纳一下。

I was gonna try to summarize all the advice you've given.

但如果你只想按这些建议做最基础的下一步，试试这个：448336224。

But if you were to do the bare minimum next steps based on this advice, Try this 448336224.

如果你只是快速地直接输入224，这个也管用吗？

Does 224 work too if you just, like, go real fast like it?

是的。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

太好了。

Perfect.

没错。

Yep.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Mhmm.

连续几天早上都这么做。

So do that for a couple mornings.

看看效果怎么样。

See how that does.

对。

Mhmm.

试试这个NSDR练习。

Try this NSDR practice.

我们会提供一个操作示范的录音链接。

You'll link we'll link to a recording of how to do that.

你之前还推荐了别的吗？

And then was there something else you recommended?

哦，躯体治疗师。

Oh, Somatic, worker.

简单来说，可能是一位治疗师，也可能不是，就是那种能帮你调理身体的人。

Like, basically, maybe a therapist, maybe not, someone that helps you with your body.

对。

Yeah.

我还会建议加上那个八段锦练习，哪怕只是在早上深呼吸前或后做十五秒，这样你就能感受到其中的区别。

And I'd add in the the eight practice for even, you know, fifteen seconds before the breathing in the morning and after just so that you notice the difference.

如果你做NSDR，那基本上也是一种十五分钟的内在感知练习。

And if you do the NSDR, that is, basically a fifth a fifteen minute interoception practice as well.

所以通过这项练习，你可以一举两得。

So you're kind of getting two birds with one stone with that practice.

你对冥想有什么看法？

What's your perspective on meditation?

这能纳入这个体系吗？

Does that fit into this?

你觉得SDR能替代冥想吗？

Do you find the SDR replaces the need for meditation?

这可是个大话题。

That is a big topic.

我本人是个狂热的冥想者，参加过好几次十天的静修营。

I I I I am an an avid meditator, so I've done, you know, many ten day silent retreats.

我曾经在一间全黑的房间里待了十天。

I was in a dark room for ten days.

天哪。

Wow.

至于冥想，我觉得关键看你练的是什么。

With meditation, I think it really depends on what you're training.

这就像问你对锻炼有什么看法一样。

Like, it it's like saying, you know, what's your opinion on exercise?

你到底是练柔韧性、耐力，还是力量？

Well, are you training mobility or stamina or strength?

冥想也是一样的道理。

It's the same with meditation.

你可能是在培养慈悲心。

You could be training loving kindness.

你可能是在训练专注力和注意力。

You could be training your focus and attention.

你可能是在训练开阔的觉察力。

You could be training spacious awareness.

我个人非常推崇那种结合身体感知的冥想方式。

I I so I'm a big fan of of of embodied meditation practices.

比如经典的内观身体扫描就是一个很好的例子。

So this is often, the classic Vipassana body scan is a good example.

这基本上就是一种内感受练习，也就是把注意力一遍又一遍地扫描身体的各个部位。在内观禅修中，这种练习可能会持续好几天。

Again, I mean, that's basically interoceptive practice, right, where you're you're just moving your attention through different parts of your body over and over and over again for, like, days on end in in the case of a Vipassana retreat.

冥想对于培养一种特定的能力很有帮助，那就是在刺激和反应之间，扩大心理上的缓冲空间。

Meditation is helpful for the specific skill of increasing the psychological space between a stimulus and your response.

所以如果你有一定的冥想经验，就不会那么容易被某种情绪牵着走，甚至不会完全相信某个思维模式，而是能稍微抽离一点，看清它到底是什么。

So if you have some degree of meditation practice, instead of getting wrapped up in a certain emotion or or even believing a certain thought pattern, there's usually an ability to kind of step back a little bit and see if what it is.

冥想确实有它的价值，但我的看法是，过去二十年里，我们对正念和冥想的关注有点过头了。

So there definitely is a place for meditation, but my my viewpoint is that we've kind of over indexed for mindfulness and meditation in in over the last twenty years.

现在到处都是冥想应用软件。

Like, it's there's so many apps.

关于冥想的讨论也多得不得了，结果我们反而把身体导向的方法完全给忘了。

There's so there's so much, talk about it, and we've completely forgotten the the body based approaches.

我不是说别去冥想。

So I'm not saying don't meditate.

我觉得冥想肯定有它的位置，特别是当你目标是传统意义上的觉醒，看透自我的本质时。

I think meditation for sure has its place, especially if your goal is more more of the traditional waking up and, like, seeing through the the nature of the self.

在我看来，那是另一条完全不同的路。

Like, that's that's a different kind of path in my opinion.

但如果你是为了更高效地生活，更敏锐地感知身体，那就有另一类方法——就是我们今天提到的这种自下而上的练习。

But if you're looking to to function more effectively and kind of be more in tune with your body, then there's a whole different category of practices in in this bottom up variety that we've we've touched on today.

说到自下而上的方法，我猜你特别推崇那本大家总在提的书，《身体会记住创伤》，好像是这个名字吧。

On the topic of bottom up, I imagine you're a big fan of this book that everyone always talks about, The Body Keeps Score, I think it's called.

对。

Mhmm.

你会推荐这本书吗？

Would you recommend that book?

它和你经常讲的那些内容有很大关联吗？

Is it connected in large parts of the stuff you talk about?

你对这本书具体怎么看？

What do you think of that that book specifically?

因为我经常听到别人提起它。

Because I hear about it all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

这本书不错。

It's it's a good book.

作者是巴塞尔·范德考克，不过还有另一种说法。

It's by Basil van der Kolk, and there's there's another way.

我觉得彼得·莱文说过，问题藏在组织里，这基本上就是核心观点。

I think Peter Levine says the issues are in the tissues is basically is basically the concept.

我们的身体里会储存一些未完成的应激反应，通常表现为紧张感。

And this is the idea that we have these incomplete mobilization reflexes that are stored in our body and often held as tension.

说创伤直接储存在身体里，并不完全准确。

It's not strictly true to say that the the trauma is in the body.

其实那是一套大脑皮层的神经地图，用来追踪这些反应。

It is actually a cortical map in the brain which kind of tracks these things.

但就实际体验而言，确实会感觉右髋里存着悲伤，太阳神经丛里憋着愤怒。

But for for kind of practical purposes, it looks and feels as if there is stored grief in my right hip or anger in my solar plexus.

这就是我们实际感受到的样子。

Like, that's that's the experience that we have.

当你越来越留意这些身体感觉，开始培养情绪的流动性，那些紧张就会慢慢释放，你也会变得不那么容易被触发，情绪债务也一点点还清了。

And the more that you become aware of these sensations and start to, yeah, develop emotional fluidity essentially, The more that that tension is released and the less reactive you become and the more emotional debt you pay off.

所以我觉得，身体会记下这一切。

So I I think the body keeps the score.

更准确的说法可能是，身体本身就是一本记分卡。

I I I I think a more accurate way would be the body is the scorecard in a way.

我觉得这算是一个小小的视角调整。

I think that's kind of a a a slight reframe.

如果你对这个感兴趣，彼得·莱文的《唤醒老虎》是这方面最经典的著作，讲的就是我刚才说的那些动员反射的内容。

And if you're interested in this, the work of Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger is kind of the the seminal book on on this, like, mobilization reflex stuff that I'm describing.

我以前还真不知道这一块。

I never knew that part of it.

其实这些记忆是储存在大脑里的，但感觉上却像是藏在身体的某个部位。

And, basically, it is actually kept in the brain, but it comes across as somewhere in the body.

没错。

Yeah.

就是这样。

Exactly.