OpenAI设计负责人：这是设计师历史上最好的时代 | Ian Silber

而且，你知道，尤其是在我们这个领域，我们正在构建超级智能，它具备所有这些不同的能力，这很有趣，我们需要更多地思考我们可以构建的底层原语，这些原语可以相互叠加。

And, you know, especially as you're like, in our world, we're it's interesting because we're trying to build you know, we're building the superintelligence that has that has all these different capabilities, and we need to think more about the underlying primitives that we can build that can kind of build on top of each other.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我觉得Notion早期在这方面做得非常好。

You know, this is something that I think, like, Notion did really well early on.

就是，我们要构建这些积木块。

Was like, we're gonna build these building blocks.

对吧？

Right?

然后，所有东西都可以组合起来。

And then, like, everything kinda is composable.

我觉得这变得越来越重要，因为你想，我们不想构建所有这些孤立的、一次性的体验。

I think that's becoming really important too as you think about, like, well, we don't wanna build all these sort of one off siloed experiences.

我们希望构建和交付能够相互叠加的系统，这样当人们使用我们的产品时，感觉就像是一个统一而简单的东西，模型能够推理如何把所有这些东西整合在一起。

We want to be able to build and ship systems that can build on top of each other so that when someone goes and uses our product, it feels like one cohesive simple thing, the model can reason about how it can pull all these things together.

所以，真正理解系统并思考这一点变得更重要了，尤其是因为系统可能做的事情非常复杂。

So that idea of really understanding the system and thinking about that is becoming even more important, especially because it's kind of complex of all the things that it could possibly do.

这是我连续做的第五个播客了，每次都会提到系统思维，真有意思。

This is the fifth podcast in a row I've done where systems thinking has come up as Interesting.

这是人们越来越看重的一项技能。

Skill that people are more and more looking for.

而且，这真的很好笑。

And it's, it's like so funny.

我真该弄个系统思维的宾果卡，但这确实很有道理。

I need a bingo card for systems thinking, but it makes so much sense.

而且我觉得从设计师的角度来看尤其有道理。

And I think it especially makes sense from the designer perspective.

回到我为什么觉得设计师现在又沮丧又压力大的原因，就是做设计的时间变少了，传统的设计流程被压缩了。

If we come back to just why my take on why designers are kind of frustrated and stressed right now is just there's less time to do design, the traditional design process.

事情进展得太快了，工程师们每天要提交五千个拉取请求。

Things are just moving like engineers are shipping 5,000 PRs a day.

所以你说得对，这种积木式构建、设计系统语言，以及一个可以搭建的平台，感觉非常重要。

And so to your point, this idea of building blocks and design system language and just a platform to be able to build on feels incredibly important.

完全同意。

Totally.

这确实很难，但，嗯，是的。

It's very hard, but I I I yeah.

说起来挺有意思的。

It's like it's funny.

我们有过这样的对话，我总是说，少做点。

I've we've had these conversations where I'm like, just do less.

我的建议就是少做点。

Like, my encouragement has been do less.

比如，别设计它。

There are like, don't design it.

如果没必要，也许已经有现成的系统或组件可以在此基础上构建，或者我们根本不需要这个功能。

If you don't have to, maybe there's already an existing system or component or something that we can build on top of, or maybe we don't even need this feature.

其实我们只需要，怎么说呢，扩展现有的功能就行了。

We actually just need to kind of, like, you know, extend an an existing feature.

我觉得这一点很重要。

Think that's an important thing.

而且其中一部分就是要跳出你手头工作的范围去思考。

And and part of that is, like, thinking outside of the bounds of what you're working on.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得从全局去思考，现在变得越来越重要了。

And thinking across everything, I think, is becoming much more important.

而且速度肯定也是现在这么重要的一个原因。

And the speed for sure, I think is is a reason why that's so important right now.

顺着这个话题说下去，因为这在设计界感觉是个挺大的变化。

Just to follow that thread, because that feels like a pretty big change in the design world.

以前我们有个播客，请到了Design Club Code的负责人Jenny Wen，她聊过这个，我觉得当时让很多人挺震惊的。

There used to be this we had a podcast with she was head of design club code, Jenny Wen, and she talked about this, and I think it blew a lot of people's minds.

就是一直以来的传统设计流程。

Just there's been this traditional design process.

原型、模型、测试、用户研究、迭代。

Prototype, mock, test, use research, iterate.

好的。

Okay.

不错。

Cool.

准备好交给工程，开发、迭代、上线。

Ready for engineering, build it, iterate, ship it.

但现在根本没时间做这些。

And now there's just no time for that.

所以在她看来，这个角色已经转向了宏观规划，就是引导大家往正确的方向走。

And so the role in her eyes has just moved to big picture planning and just, like, steering people in a good direction.

你认同吗？

Does that resonate?

设计师的世界里，这个变化有多大？

How much has that has changed in in the world of a designer?

我觉得百分之百，我们就是这么工作的。

I think that a 100% we we do work that way.

不过这也得看情况。

It it's it depends.

我觉得对我们来说，这取决于你在流程的哪个阶段，或者产品发展到什么程度了。

I think for us, it depends on, like, what sort of what stage you're at in the in the sort of process or, you know, how maybe how far along the product is.

对于ChatGPT的某些功能，我们确实会非常投入，花很多时间。

There are certain features for ChatGPT where we really obsess and we really spend a lot of time.

我们会尝试很多种方案，然后淘汰掉大部分，最后只推出一个。

We try a million things and we throw out, you know we try a 100 things and we throw out 99 and we finally ship one.

比如那个编辑器，每天都在变，我们试了很多方案，然后都放弃了。

You know, the, like, the or, like, the composer is, like, changing every single day, and we try many things that we throw them out.

但ChatGPT里很多不同的功能都是这样做的。

But or, like and you could take that for many different things within ChatGPT.

然后还有一些其他的东西，比如Codex，你知道，我也不太清楚。

And then there are other things like Codex where, you know I don't know.

我的意思是，超级应用就是一个很好的例子，我们确实就是很快地尝试各种东西。

I mean, a super app is a good example where we definitely are just, like, trying stuff really quick.

我觉得我们真的很喜欢公开地做产品，这是一种不同的工作方式。

I think that we really embrace building in public, which is a different way of working.

但我觉得，当你习惯了之后，这其实真的让人很满足，因为你可以尝试新东西，然后马上得到反馈，无论是内部的还是外部的。

But I think that, like, when you get comfortable with it, it's actually really gratifying or satisfying because you can try stuff and get instant feedback both internally and externally.

不过，是的，我的意思是，这进展真的很快。

But, yeah, I mean, it is moving really fast.

而且我觉得这真的要看情况。

And I think it just depends.

对吧？

Right?

就像我说的，有些东西我们真的很抠细节，我们会尝试，你知道，我们会做测试，做A/B测试，做用户研究，然后我们不断迭代和进化很多。

Like like I said, certain things we really sweat the details and we try, you know, and and we do test, we AB test, we'll do user research, and we kind of iterate and evolve a lot.

然后其他事情，我们会大胆尝试，然后快速学习。

And then other things, we we take big swings, and then we learn quickly.

不过，我也不太确定。

But, yeah, I don't know.

我觉得你得接受技术可能在一个月内就会变化，也许你需要的某个交互方式或设置，或者别的什么，可能就不需要存在了，或者现在需要新的东西，或者有了新的能力，或者延迟情况变了，让你可以重新思考这些。

I think you have to like, I think the biggest thing is, like, embracing that the technology might change in, like, a a month or, you know, and maybe certain interaction or or setting or or whatever that you needed doesn't need to exist or now a new one does need to exist, or a new capability is there, or the latency profile has changed such that you can, like, rethink this or whatever.

所有这些能力都在变化，或者智能水平提升了，所以你必须反应非常快，而且可能不要太过于执着，直到它到了那个点，好吧。

All these capabilities are changing or the the intelligence has changed or and so you have to be just, like, really quick on your feet and and maybe not be so precious about it until it's at the point where, okay.

这个已经比较稳定了。

This is kinda hardened.

比如，我们不觉得这个明天会因为技术而改变，所以让我们把它做到最好。

Like, we don't think that this is necessarily gonna change tomorrow because of the technology, So let's make this the best it can possibly be.

你知道，我们正在思考很多关于如何演变，真正思考ChatGPT如何深深嵌入你的个人生活，以及这个应用应该给人什么感觉，这不是我们一夜之间就能设计和发布的东西，不能就这么推出去。

You know, like, we're we're we're thinking a lot about how we should evolve sort of really think about ChatGPT becoming, like, deeply embedded in per like, your personal life and how how should the how should the app feel, that's something that we're not gonna necessarily design and ship overnight and just, like, put it out there.

我们正在花时间真正思考这个问题，我们尝试了很多不同的想法，或者把它们写在白板上，或者我们在Figma里做一些设计。

We're spending we're really thinking about that, and we're trying a bunch of different ideas or putting it up on, you know, you know, a whiteboard or, you know, we're doing some design in Figma.

我们在做原型。

We're prototyping it.

在正式发布之前，我们可能会先内部试用很多不同的想法。

We're probably gonna dog food a bunch of different ideas long before we ever ship something.

但这是一个更大的项目。

That but that's a bigger project.

对吧？

Right?

然后还有一些事情，我们可能四小时内就能从想法变成发布。

And then there's other things where we're like, idea to ship in, like, you know, four hours.

这都说得通。

This all makes sense.

基本上，我听到的是，你选择要打的仗，把设计精力集中在那些持久不变的东西上。

Essentially, I'm hearing is you pick your battles and you focus the design effort on the things that will be durable and not change.

完全正确。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

很难知道那是什么。

It's hard to know what that is.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

本期节目由Mercury赞助播出，这是一种截然不同的银行服务，深受超过30万创业者的喜爱，现在还有了Command功能。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking, loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, and now with Command.

我使用Mercury已经超过六年了。

I've been a customer of Mercury's for over six years.

我从来没有想过要离开。

I have never once thought about leaving.

Mercury基本上就是那种由产品人员而不是银行家打造的银行服务。

Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers.

他们让发送发票、转账、为团队成员设置虚拟卡变得超级简单，甚至可以说有趣。

They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team.

你的银行有API、终端命令行工具，或者AI就绪的MCP服务器吗？

Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server?

我觉得没有吧。

I don't think so.

而且最近他们推出了Command，一个直接集成在Mercury里的对话式界面，相当于你的财务助手。

And just recently, they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator.

我一直在用Command来转账、查看我花钱最多的类别、分析现金流，就在今天我还用它查了过去一年从某个赞助商那里赚了多少钱。

I've been using Command to transfer money around to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and just today I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year.

我就问了一句，过去一年我从X那里赚了多少。

I just asked how much have I made from x over the past year.

十秒钟后我就得到了答案。

Ten seconds later I have an answer.

这真的太酷了。

It is so freaking cool.

访问mercury.com了解更多，几分钟内即可在线申请。

Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes.

Mercury是一家金融科技公司，不是FDIC保险银行，银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column NA提供，成员FDIC。

Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank, banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA, Members FDIC.

所以我问了一群很了解你的人，该和你聊些什么。

So I asked a bunch of people that know you well what to talk to you about.

Joel Lowenstein，他恰好是Anthropic的设计主管，也是你的好朋友，我很喜欢这一点。

And Joel Lowenstein, who happens to be the head of design at Anthropic, a good friend of yours, which I love.

他说，他觉得你工作中最难的部分，是在平衡ChatGPT现有十亿月活用户的需求，与创新、推进、迭代和发明的需求之间找到平衡。

And he said what he imagines the hardest part of your job is, is balancing the needs of the existing billion monthly active users of ChatGPT with the need to innovate and push and iterate and invent.

所以我很好奇你是怎么看待这个问题的，你是如何找到这个平衡点的，因为你必须兼顾双方。

And so I'm just curious how you just think about that, how you find that balance knowing you have to cater to both sides.

这是个好问题，这也是我们工作方式中非常有趣的一部分。

That's a great question, and it's a really fun part of the way we work.

我觉得我们的用户群体差异非常大，真的非常不一样。

I think that we have we have vastly different audiences, like, really, really different.

我从来没遇到过这么广泛的用户分布。

I've never worked in this kind of quite quite spread.

你知道，我在Instagram工作了八年。

You know, I at Instagram, I I I spent eight years working at Instagram.

我们有十亿用户，或者可能更多。

We had a billion user or billions of users maybe.

其实我现在不太清楚他们现在的用户数，但确实很多。

I don't actually know what they're at now, but it was a lot of people.

但那个产品比较简单，基本上就是几种使用方式。

But the product was pretty simple, and it was sort of, you know, a couple ways you could use it.

我们确实会考虑创作者和那些有特殊需求的大账号，但这里的情况完全不同，有人用它来想今晚吃什么，或者想换个发型之类的。

We did think about, like, creators and, you know, larger accounts that had special needs, but this is, like, vastly different where you have someone who's, you know, using this to help them come up with the recipe to eat tonight or, you know, brainstorm their next haircut or something like that.

还有人用它来改变他们的农业方式，比如在日本自动化他们的农场。

And then there's somebody who's, like, transforming the way they're doing farming for their, you know, their, like, you know, helping to automate their farm in Japan or something.

对吧？

Right?

而且这真的是前所未有的广泛。

And it's just like the broadest spectrum ever.

总的来说，我们发现我们相信这种能力过剩的概念，也就是说，绝大多数人只利用了产品真正价值的一小部分。

Generally, what we've seen is that we we believe in this idea of this sort of capability overhang where the the product, you know, like, vast majority of the people are getting a sliver of the the true value that they could out of the bottle.

这未必是坏事。

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

很多人仍然从中获得了巨大的价值。

Many you know, they're still getting tons of value.

但我们发现，我们专注于为大多数人创造极其简单流畅的体验。

But we found that, like, we, you know, make sure to focus on creating a extremely simple streamlined experience for for many, many people.

然后我们把所有前沿的东西都放进去。

And then we put, like, all of the, you know, cutting edge stuff.

我们也确保让那些真正关心的人能够轻松获得这些功能。

We also make make sure to give that and and make sure that's, like, really accessible for the people that care.

当然，挑战在于不能过度强调某些功能，也不能把人们可能不理解的东西直接放到十亿用户面前。

The challenge, of course, is, like, not necessarily over indexing and and sort of, like, putting that putting something that people might not understand in front of a billion users.

但总的来说，我们发现可以先和真正关心的人进行早期试验，这就是我们桌面应用和Codex的用武之地。

So but generally, what we've seen is we can experiment early with the the people that really care, and that's where we have, like, our desktop app and we have Codex.

现在ChatGPT Work正在面向更广泛的用户群体，我们对此非常兴奋。

And now ChatGPT Work is kinda stepping into a much broader audience, which we're really excited about.

最终，我们想要实现并且我们在设计上经常思考的是，当用户不需要考虑切换或模式之类的事情时，产品才能真正为数十亿用户所用。

And eventually, what we want what we what we know, and and we think about this a lot in design is, like, it will true like, things will truly become, like, for billions of users when they don't have to, like, think about a switch or a mode or anything like that.

所以我们知道，最终它必须被融入到主要体验中。

And so we know that, like, eventually, it has to kinda get distilled into that main experience.

但这确实是一个很有趣的平衡问题，我们需要考虑每天免费使用的用户，以及那些每月支付数百美元的用户，他们的需求各不相同。

But it is, like, a really fun thing to balance, and we have to think about, like, people that are using this for free every day, the people that are paying us hundreds of dollars and lots of different needs.

这只是一个平衡的问题。

It's just a matter of sort of balancing.

作为设计师，这确实增加了不少复杂性，因为你必须对每种不同类型的用户都有同理心。

And as a designer, it does add a lot of complexity for sure to think to you really have to have empathy for every sort of different type of user.

但这确实让事情变得有趣。

But this it it makes it fun for sure.

你提到的关于ChatGPT和Codex使用范围之广的观点，真是让人大开眼界。

That is such a mind blowing point you're making about the spectrum of usage of ChatGPT and Codex.

我之前没这么想过。

I didn't think about it that way.

有没有哪个产品能像这样覆盖这么广的范围？

Like, is there has there been a product that has such a wide spectrum from this?

从问手指上的疹子到搭建Salesforce。

Like, what's this rash on my finger to building Salesforce?

你懂吧？

Know?

对。

Yeah.

这也让事情变得很难，你知道，因为很多地方都挺搞笑的。

And it and it makes it really hard to you know, because I a lot of it's so funny.

比如，我们一直在思考的一个大挑战就是这种空白框问题。

Like, one of the big challenges we're always thinking about is this, like, blank box problem.

对吧？

Right?

而且人们经常讨论这个问题。

And people talk about this all the time.

就是说，聊天真的是最终的前沿吗？

It's like, is chat really the final frontier?

它就像一个终端，一个被美化的终端。

It's a terminal bay it's, you know, glorified terminal.

这是我觉得这些聊天机器人受到的一些批评。

It is like some critique that that I think these chatbots get.

然后就是，好吧。

And then it's like, okay.

那么你怎么设计一个能随意变形的产品呢？

So how do you design something that can kind of shape shift into anything?

你知道吗？

You know?

比如说，有人可能来这里是为了好玩，生成图片，或者他们想做个PPT，你懂吧？

It's like maybe someone is coming here for image generation for fun or, you know, they're trying to generate a PowerPoint or you know?

所以，拥有一个能灵活适应的界面，真的是一个很有意思的设计挑战。

So having this adaptable interface is like a really interesting design challenge.

这有点像一片未开发的领域，因为它真的可以变成很多不同的工具。

And it's like sorta uncharted territory because it can really, like like, shape shift into many different tools.

而且它在很多方面都表现得特别出色，我们得想办法把这一点展现出来。

And it's just, like, incredible at so many different things and trying to figure out how to present that.

然后，我们也经常考虑新手用户，那些刚接触这个体验的人，我们希望帮助他们理解这个东西如何能为他们的生活或工作带来价值，不管他们是在什么场景下使用。

And then thinking about you know, we think a lot about, like, a novice user, someone who's sort of brand new to this experience that we want to help them understand how this can add value to their lives or to their sort of professional work or what whatever the whatever capacity they're using this in.

同时，我们也想为那些每天都在用、把它当成真正得力工具的人提供便利，不给他们添麻烦。

And then we also wanna, like, get out of the way of people that, you know, use this every single day, and they use this as, like, a real workhorse tool.

所以，为这样广泛的用户群体做设计，是我们需要认真思考的问题。

And so designing for that spectrum is something we have to think about a lot.

不过，是的，我觉得这确实是一个充满各种可能性的世界。

But, yeah, it's all a world of spectrums, I guess.

凯文·韦尔，你的前首席产品官，在播客上说过一句话让我印象很深，就是你说的，人们总是批评说这只是一个聊天框。

There's a comment that Kevin Weil, your former chief product officer, made on the podcast that has really stuck with me, which is, to your point, people always diss this idea of just like it's just like a chat box.

为什么它从来没有变过？

Why hasn't it ever changed from that?

虽然它其实变了，但大家还是觉得它就是个聊天框。

Even though it has, but still, it's kind of this chat box chat box.

他提出了一个很好的观点：什么样的界面能很好地适应各种智力水平？

And he made this really good point that what is an interface that is very good at spanning a wide spectrum of intelligence?

其实就是对话。

It's actually just talking.

想想人类，我们和智商低的人聊天，也和智商很高的人聊天。

If you think about humans, we talk to people low IQ to very high IQ.

我们都能互相交流，而对话确实是一个很好的方式来承载一个越来越智能的东西。

We can all just talk to each other, and it's actually a really good interface for packaging something that is increasingly smarter and smarter and smarter.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得我们正在看到的，对我们来说真正有趣的设计空间是，你知道，我们考虑两件事。

And and I think we're seeing what's what's been really fun design space for us is, you know, there's two things we think about.

一是，我们怎么帮你更好地表达你的意图？

One is, like, how do we how can we help you express your intent better?

对吧？

Right?

比如，我们不希望你非得成为一个完美的提示工程师，但我们要怎么教你，哦，这是模型能帮我做的事情，然后我们怎么确保我们最好地理解你想要什么。

Like, we don't want you to have to think about being a perfect prompt engineer, but, like, how do we even one, teach you that, oh, this is something that the model can help me with, and then how do we make sure that we get we we sort of best understand what you want.

所以，比如，你知道，我们最近推出了一些功能，如果你问一个开放性的问题，它会跟进一些后续问题，你可以直接点击回答，而不必把所有内容都打出来。

And so, like, you know, we recently shipped some features where if you ask sort of an open ended question, it can follow-up with, you know, some follow-up questions that you can, like, just tap through and answer versus having to type everything out.

对吧？

Right?

或者另一个好例子是，你知道，当你真正让它做某件事时，聊天记录不一定非得是纯文本。

Or another good example is, you know, so then then once you actually ask it to do something, there's the chat transcript doesn't need to be purely text.

对吧？

Right?

我们现在看到这些已经和ChatGPT刚推出时大不一样了。

We've seen these now evolve so far from what it was with ChatGPT just launched.

你知道，它不再只是一个纯粹的聊天机器人。

You know, it's no longer just a pure chatbot.

实际上，它里面已经集成了很多功能。

It actually has many features within that.

对吧？

Right?

一个很好的例子就是我们所说的写作模块。

So a good example is what we call writing blocks.

你让它帮你写封信或邮件，它会把内容放在一个可以直接操作的模块里，你可以和它一起打字、头脑风暴，还能修改其中的细节。

You ask it to, you know, write you a letter or an email, and it now contains that that email in sort of a block that you can directly manipulate, and you can type with it, you can brainstorm, and you can edit little bits and parts of it.

你可以只复制那部分。

You can copy just that.

这让交互体验好了很多。

And that has made that interaction much better.

我们在图像生成和为此类模式打造专门工具方面也看到了同样的趋势。

And we're seeing the same thing with, like, image generation and creating special tools for that kind of mode.

我觉得这就是界面设计接下来要持续演进的方向——如何根据使用场景来调整。比如，如果你是设计师，ChatGPT 或许应该看起来不一样，或者提供不同的操作方式。

And I think that's where the UI is gonna start to really continue to evolve is how do we make if you're if you come at this and you're a designer, maybe ChatGPT should actually really look differently look different or have different affordances.

或者你是数据科学家，或者你用它来管理家庭事务、处理个人生活。

Or you're, you know, a a data scientist or, you know, you're using this for to run your home, you know, like, your your personal life.

它应该根据不同的使用场景，在功能和外观上有所区别。

It should really kinda work or look differently.

所以，理解用户的使用场景，并据此提供不同的功能，这是我们一直在深入思考的问题。

So, like, understanding the context and giving you different affordances based on that is something that, you know, we're thinking a lot about.

从愿景和未来发展的角度来看，我知道这总在变化，但你们对 ChatGPT 和 Codex 的未来有没有一个大致的构想？

In terms of the vision and future of where all this goes, I know this is always evolving, but is there kind of a sense of what the future of ChatGPT Codex is?

我知道有超级应用这个概念。

I know there's this idea of a super app.

你提到了语音，还有个人助理这个想法。

You talked about voice, this personal assistant idea.

你觉得从长远来看，这会怎么发展？

What's like a way you think about where this goes long term?

我觉得它会变得越来越适应你生活中的所有情境。

I think that it will start to become more and more adaptive to, you know, all of the context of your life.

我觉得主动性是体验中一个很大的未开发部分，我们很期待去探索。

I think proactivity is a big untapped kind of part of the experience that we're really excited to think about.

我们现在已经在ChatGPT的工作中看到了这一点，它基于你的日历、Slack或者其他外部输入和背景，能给出相当不错的建议。

You know, we're starting to see this with ChatGPT work now where it actually has pretty good suggestions based on, you know, your calendar or your Slack or these different sort of inputs and external kind of context.

我觉得这会变得越来越重要，或者会改变你使用它的方式。

I think that's gonna become more and more important or kinda shift the way, you know, you use it.

关于语音，你知道，我们刚刚在模型上实现了一个质的飞跃，感觉自然多了。

I think voice as you know, we we we just have a step change in the model that just feels much more natural.

而且，我只能想象两三年后，随着它不断进步，那会是什么感觉。

And, like, you know, I can only imagine how that's gonna feel in two, three years as it just get better and better.

我觉得我真的很喜欢和ChatGPT互动，尤其是语音互动。

I think people I I do love interacting with ChatGPT, especially voice in.

就是，我只是想很快地说一句。

Like, just I wanna just kind of, like, really quickly say something.

然后我觉得，它的能力不只是回答问题，还能帮你做事。

And and then I think, like, its ability to kinda go sort of, like, not just from asking questions, but actually doing things for you.

这一切都会改变。

That's all gonna change.

而且，随着我们不断推进，这一切也会变得更简单。

And, all of this gets simpler as we do it too.

对吧？

Right?

你懂吗？

You know?

当我们想到超级应用时，我觉得最终我们真正想到的是，特别是对于我们的广大消费者来说，应该有一个通用的输入方式，你可以问它，它知道什么时候需要快速回答，或者应该闲聊，或者应该去帮你干活。

When we think of the super app, I think eventually we really think of the idea of especially for our broad consumer base, we do think that there should be sort of this one universal input that you can ask that knows when it needs to answer, like, really quickly or it should be chatty or whether it should go and, like, go off and do work for you.

所以，我们特别兴奋的一点就是，怎么才能继续简化体验，让你根本不用去想这玩意儿是怎么运作的。

And so that's a big, like, excitement that we can get to is how can we just continue to simplify the experience such that you shouldn't have to think about how this works.

你不用去想自己用的是哪个模型，或者用的是什么速度。

You shouldn't have to think about what model you're on or what sort of speed you're using.

你知道，这又回到了平衡不同用户类型和需求的问题上。

You know, that like, that's like it goes back to the balancing the different kind of, you know, personas and user needs.

当然，我们想把那些高级选项开放给合适的人，但同时也得确保默认体验对大多数人来说都很好用。

Like, right of course, we wanna expose that for the right people, but then we wanna make sure that we can get a default experience that works great for for most people.

不过，对，我觉得它会变得非常主动。

But, yeah, I think it's gonna be really proactive.

我确实觉得，我们会通过语音获得更丰富的输入，还有更互动、更丰富的视觉输出，这样你就能和ChatGPT建立更持久的工作流程，可以反复使用。

I do think that we're gonna, like, get much richer sort of inputs through voice and, like, richer visual outputs that are more interactive, I think that you'll start to build more durable kind of workflows with ChatGPT that you can kinda use over and over.

现在很多时候，感觉每次都得从头开始，我们真的想让它成为你处理各种任务的得力工具。

Right now, you know, it a lot of times, it feels like you're coming and starting from scratch each time, and we wanna really make this kind of the tool that you can use to to help you with whatever sort of task you have.

听起来真不错。

This all sounds wonderful.

我等不及了。

I can't wait.

稍微把视角拉远一点，然后我想再跟设计师们聊聊。

Just kinda zooming out a little bit, and then I wanna talk a little bit to designers again.

但你现在这个角色可是很了不起的。

But you're in this epic role right now.

我想你进入OpenAI并担任这个角色时，一定有很多意想不到的事情吧。

I imagine there's a lot of surprises as you entered OpenAI and took on this role.

有什么事情是你希望自己当初就知道的？

What's something you wish you'd known?

有什么话是你想对第一天入职的自己说的，给他一些建议？

What's something you wish you could whisper into Ian of of day one and to give you some advice?

天哪，太多了。

I mean, so many things.

我觉得，首先就是，要意识到我们其实还处在很早期的阶段。说实话，我刚来OpenAI的时候，其实挺忐忑的。

I think, you know, the first one is, like, recognizing that we're really early and instead like, I actually was pretty intimidated coming to OpenAI, if I'm being honest.

你知道吗？

You know?

我记得，面试的时候。

I remember, like, okay, interviewing.

哦，天哪。

Oh, no.

我得说，GPT-4刚出来不久，我当时就想，这都是些什么东西？

I gotta, like you know, g GPT four had kinda recently come out, and what GPT like, I you know, I was like, what is all this stuff?

我虽然也在用，也在接触这些，但我觉得自己并没有真正理解它。

Like, I I was using it, and I was using the the stuff, but I I didn't feel like I had a true understanding of of it.

说实话，我现在还是有很多要学的。

And to be honest, I I, you know, I there's I still have so much to learn.

所以，那种感觉就是，你来得早。

So that idea of, like, you are early.

我们都在摸索中。

We're we're figuring this out.

这种内容，我觉得我会想听。

Like, that, I think I would I would wanna hear.

另外，我还发现一点，而且对我来说，这更像是个人层面的东西。

And the other thing, like, that I found, you know and and for me, this is more of, like, a personal thing.

这跟AI关系不大，但我确实换了一个非常不同的角色。

It's less about AI or anything, but I stepped into a really different role.

你知道，我职业生涯大部分时间都在做管理，确实管过人，但从来没有在增长这么快、公司又这么不一样的环境里管过，每天都有新情况。

You know, most of my career, I I've managed I definitely managed before, but never, like, at a scale that's growing so fast and and then at a company that is, like, so different, you know, that it the role was just every day was something new.

很长一段时间，我都觉得自己好像不太行，或者就是不知道自己在干嘛。

And for a long time, I felt like I'm kind of, like, bad at this or I'm you know, I don't know what I'm doing.

后来我去跟一些带过大型设计团队或者跟我有类似转型经历的朋友聊，他们都有完全一样的感觉。

And then I went and, like, talked to friends that had led, like, really large design teams or or or were in a similar transition as me, and they all felt exactly the same.

或者说，我遇到的问题并不是独一无二的。

Or the problems that I had were not unique.

所以，这算是更个人的建议吧，我觉得在职业生涯的任何阶段，都会有那种冒充者综合征的感觉，会想‘我到底在干什么？’

And so, you know, this is, I guess, yeah, more personal advice that it's like I think at any stage of your career, there's that feeling of, like, imposter syndrome and, like, what am I doing?

我不知道该怎么做。

I don't I don't know how to do this.

找到能聊得来、也在经历类似事情的人，你会发现大家通常有很多共同的挑战和困难。有这样一个导师，或者只是一个中立的、置身事外的伙伴，对我来说真的很有帮助。

Finding people you can talk to that are going through similar things, you'll find that there's usually a lot of shared kind of challenges and struggles and having that sort of whether it's a mentor or just like a a buddy that is, like, impartial and out of it has was really helpful to me.

而且，找到这样的社群，我觉得也很有帮助。

And, you know, finding that community, I think, has been has been helpful.

是的。

So yeah.

所以，就是这些，再加上要明白这一切都太新了，而且变化非常快。

So, like, that and then understanding that this is all so new and and evolving really quickly.

听到这些真的很有帮助。

That is extremely helpful to hear.

Elena Verna 发过一篇很棒的文章。

Elena Verna had this really great post.

不知道你认不认识她。

I don't know if you know her.

她现在在Lovable负责增长这块。

She's had a growth at Lovable right now.

她发过一篇很棒的文章，叫《停止AI自信表演》，就是说大家都在晒自己用AI做了什么，怎么改变了生活，好像都搞定了似的。

She had this great post called stop the AI confidence theater where she just kind of like, all these people just keep posting all these things they've done with AI and all the ways it's changed their life, and it's just they're killing it, figure it all out.

但实际上，真正做得好的没几个，大部分都不怎么样。所以她就说，别这样了。

And really, it's like very few people, like very few of these things are actually that great and working, and and it's just like, stop.

别假装你真的全搞明白了。

Stop pretending like this is actually you figured it all out.

我觉得还是谦虚点好，就说，对。

I think it's much better to be humble about it and be like, Yeah.

我也不太清楚。

I don't know.

这变化太快了。

This is like changing quickly.

我就打算接受它，看看会发展成什么样。

And like, I'm just gonna embrace it and and see where it goes.

对。

Yeah.

这正好呼应了你说的，现在做得好的那些人，核心特质就是好奇心强，喜欢到处摸索，不断尝试这些新东西，一次不行就再试一次，因为可能之前不行，现在就行了。

And that connects to what you said was a core component of people that are doing well right now, people that are curious and just kind of poking around and trying to try these things and try them again because maybe it didn't work now.

以前不行。

It didn't work before.

现在却可以了。

It now works now.

完全同意。

A 100%.

对。

Yeah.

就是那种感觉，嗯，怎么说呢。

It's like being kind of like yeah.

每一个模型，每一个新功能，我发现那些喜欢在边缘摸索的人，真的玩得不亦乐乎。

Every every model, every new every new feature, it's like the people that are poking around at those edges, I found are are just having such a blast doing it.

你知道吗？

You know?

这让我想起OpenAI前首席产品官Kevin Weil在播客里说过的一句话，我一直记着：今天的模型是未来最差的模型。

And this connects to something else Kevin Weil, former CPO at OpenAI said on the podcast, which has always stuck with me, which is the model we have today is the worst the model will ever be.

没错。

Exactly.

我是说，这可以追溯到，你知道，我们，对。

I mean, that that goes back to, like, when, you know, we we yeah.

我是说，新模型多久出一次，每周一次？

I mean, a new model comes out, what, every week?

每天

Every

一次？

day?

我也不清楚。

I don't know.

每天都有？

Every day?

比如，如果把所有实验室和所有东西都算上的话，变化太快了，而且每个人都在进步。

Like, for if you count all the labs and and everything, it's like, it's changing so quickly, and and everyone gets better.

我也不知道。

And I don't know.

就是，对。

It's like yeah.

我总是提醒自己。

I I always try to remind myself.

就像，你知道，这就像，嗯，我不知道，在计算机早期，当组件发展非常快，并且有这些巨大的跳跃式变化时，进行构建或设计一样。

It's like, you know, you you know, it must be, like, what like, I don't know, building or designing in, like, early days of computers when, like, componentry was, like, really evolving really quickly, and there were these drastic step changes.

而且，你知道，你会遇到这些限制，然后突然之间，这些限制就消失了。

And, you know, like, you would hit these limitations, and all of a sudden, those limitations were gone.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得是一样的。

I I think it's the same.

对吧？

Right?

这些东西就是一直在变，昨天还完全不行的事，今天居然就差不多能用了。

It's like these things just change, and they're what was totally broken yesterday now actually just kinda works.

那也许在结束对话之前，假设有个设计师在听这个节目，他们正处于那种不知所措、焦虑、挣扎、压力大、对未来不确定的状态。

So maybe to start to close out the conversation, say a designer is listening to this and they're in that bucket of overwhelmed, anxious, struggling, stressed, feeling uncertain about their future.

你对他们有什么建议，能帮他们走出这种状态，进入更好的境地？

What's one suggestion you have for them to help them move out of that state and into a better place?

就是认识到这种感受是完全合理的，而且现在是个好时机去探索，试试看如果我换个工作方式会怎样，或者重新思考一下工具，或者干脆接受，比如，也许我应该多做些原型。

Just recognizing that it's it's a it's a totally rational feeling, and it's a great time to just try to explore and see what if I tried working what if I tried, you know, think rethinking about the the tooling, or what if I just embraced, like, oh, maybe I should prototype more.

让我试试，你知道，试试用这些工具。

Let me try, you know, try using these tools.

但再说一次，认识到听到这些会有帮助，我觉得我们都还处于早期阶段，一切还在变化，就接受这一点吧。

But, again, like, recognizing that it helps to hear that I think that we're all still so early and it's and it's still changing and and just kind of embracing that.

就好好玩一玩，看看会有什么结果。

Like, just have fun with it and and see where it goes.

另外，我觉得还有一点，就是真的要专注于产出和结果。

And and I think maybe another thing I would say is really try to focus on the output, the outcome.

对吧？

Right?

说到底，我们不是来搞什么工具流程的。

At the end of the day, we're not here to build tool like processes.

我们也不是来搞什么token上限之类的东西。

We're not here to, like, build or token max or something like that.

我们是为了做出人们喜欢的好软件、好产品，或者你做的任何东西。

We're here to make great software that people love or great products or whatever it is you do.

那才是真正重要的。

But that's the thing that really matters.

如果你专注于这一点，我想你会发现，这些工具确实能帮你做到，但你仍然在其中扮演着重要的角色，就像掌舵和引导的那个人。

And if you focus on that, you know, I think that you'll hopefully find that, you know, these tools can help you do that, but you still have a huge role in that as as the person that's kind of steering and directing it.

顺着这个话题，我要带大家进入播客里两个固定的环节。

So along those lines, I'm gonna take us to a couple recurring corners of the podcast.

第一个环节是AI专区。

The first corner is AI corner.

问题是：你在工作中发现AI在哪方面特别有用？也许能启发别人去试试ChatGPT或者Codex之类的工具？

The question is just what's one way that you have found AI to be really useful in your job that maybe might inspire someone to use, say, ChatGPT or Codex?

我之前是个设计师。

I was like a designer designer.

我是说，现在我在像素级细节上花的时间少了，但我确实会用它来帮我梳理更宏观的想法。比如，你知道的，我晚上可能突然有个点子，然后我就赶紧把它输入进去

I mean, nowadays, I spend less time in the pixels, but I really do use it to kinda help me think through broader ideas Or may like, you know, I'll have an idea at night or something, and then I'll just, like, quickly type

把它

it

输进去，让它快速生成一个原型。

in and have it, like, prototype something.

这样我能得到一个具体的概念，可以拿去跟团队讨论，也能帮助把想法可视化。

And it'll give me, like, an idea that I can go and talk to the team about, and it'll help visualize something.

所以这就是设计过程的一部分。

And so there that's like a part of the design process.

就像早期想法或者我们在头脑风暴的时候，我发现ChatGPT，不管是ChatGPT还是Codex，真的能帮我把它可视化出来。

It's like early ideas or we're riffing through something and and I can I found that ChatGPT, whether it's ChatGPT work or Codex can, like, really kinda help me visualize that?

这真的很有意思。

That's been something that's been really fun.

然后，在运营方面也有不少应用。

And then, like, there's there's more on the operation side.

你知道吗？

You know?

比如现在就可以用它。

It's like, have it now.

我喜欢检查并确保重要的Slack消息被总结，并在重要会议或招聘前给我提供背景信息，基本上我工作的每个环节，我都会用它来增强我的工作。

I like, checking and making sure that, like, important Slack messages that I need to follow-up with are summarized and giving me context before sort of, like, you know, important meetings or for recruiting or for all like, every every part of my process, I I I use this to kinda augment the work that I do.

有道理。

It makes sense.

关于原型制作这部分，给想尝试的人一个建议，你是直接在手机上打开一个Codex对话吗？

On the prototyping piece, just to give someone a tip on how to do this, are you opening up on your phone and firing off just like a Codex thread?

晚上做这件事的具体操作是怎样的？

What's, like, the mechanic of doing this at night?

ChatGPT 的工作真的很棒，因为现在它完全在云端运行。

ChatGPT work has been incredible because it now runs fully in the cloud.

对吧？

Right?

所以这个想法就是，你可以随时随地，跟它聊天，让它花时间，然后给你一个非常好的成果。

And so the idea is you can kinda just be anywhere and sort of, like, talk to chat and have it, like, really spend the time and and come back with, like, a really great artifact.

所以我发现，真的很有趣，就是直接说，嘿。

So I found that it's been really fun to just be like, hey.

你知道，我们在做，不管是什么东西。

You know, we're working on, you know, whatever this thing is.

比如，它可能帮我理清思路，或者，你知道，是的。

Like, may whether it's helped me think through it or, you know yeah.

有时候我会有一些想法，想在深入之前先快速看到可视化效果，它就能帮我玩一玩、试一试什么的。

Sometimes I will just have, like, some ideas that I would love to see, like, quickly visualize before I even, like, take it further, and it will just, like, kinda help me, like, play with it and try it and stuff.

所以这真的很有意思。

And so that's been really fun.

因为它太方便了。

The fact that it's so accessible.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我可能都不在电脑旁边，或者，你知道，就是能有那种灵活性。

Like, I might not even be near a computer or I can, you know, I don't know, just kind of like have that that flexibility.

我觉得真的很好玩。

I think it's really fun.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

接下来我们换个话题，聊聊失败的经历。

I'm gonna take us to another corner, fail corner.

对。

Yeah.

我之所以这么做，是因为很多人，像你这样优秀的人来上播客，大家听到的都是你们做过的所有了不起的事情，所有成功的方面，却听不到那些事情不顺利的时候。

So the reason I do this, a lot of people, awesome awesome people like yourself come on the podcast, and all people hear is all the amazing things they've done, all the ways they've been really successful, and they don't hear all the times things didn't work out.

我觉得这对听众来说非常重要。

And I feel like that's very important for people to hear.

成功并不总是一路向上的。

It's not always up and to the right in success.

你有没有在职业生涯中失败过的经历？你从中学到了什么？

What's a story of a time you failed in your career, and and what did you learn from that?

我觉得失败的经历太多了，即使在OpenAI，我也觉得每一步都需要学习。

I mean, there are so many times I think that, I mean, even at OpenAI, it's like, I I think that I found that I've had to learn every step of the way.

对吧？

Right?

你知道吗，我刚加入的时候，我记得自己其实都不太清楚想怎么组建设计团队，也不知道该怎么招人什么的。

You know, when I first joined, I remember, you know, not really even, like, fully understanding, like, how I wanted to build a design team and, you know, not understanding how to hire whatever.

我觉得自己好像每天都在失败，但就是赶紧调整、赶紧学。

I mean, I I sort of felt like I was kind of failing every day, but just kind of, like, quickly trying to adjust and learn.

我觉得，嗯，我也不知道怎么说。

I think that that I I don't know.

这回答可能有点敷衍。

I mean, that's, like, maybe kind of a cop out answer.

但真的就是感觉每天都在边做边学。

But, like, really just feeling like every day I'm kind of learning on the go.

我觉得我的整个职业生涯都是这样，从来没有真正规划过哪一步，就是快速从错误中学习，我发布过很多没成功的东西。

I feel that my whole career has sort of been that way and that I have never really kind of planned any one step and I've in sort of like quickly learning from your mistakes, I've shipped plenty of things that did not work out.

我也发布过一些成功的，但很多时候，你试了个东西，结果就是失败了。

And I've also shipped things that, you know, in you know, have worked out, but, like, the most many times I've I've shipped or or, you know, you try something and it's kind of a failure.

在Instagram的时候，我们也有过失败的产品，然后我们就赶紧继续往前走了。

And, you know, in Instagram, we had flops and then we, you know, we'd, like, quickly move on.

我做过IGTV，那是个大失败，然后我们推出了Reels。

I mean, I worked on IGTV, which was, like, a huge flop, and then we shipped Reels.

Reels就是个好例子，因为我们一开始就有些错误的假设，还坚持了一些限制。

And Reels was like we and and look I mean, that's a good example because, like, we had we we just, like, kinda baked in some wrong assumptions and we held on to a few constraints.

但我们很快从中吸取教训，然后我们说，好吧。

But then we learned from that quickly and we were like, okay.

其实，我们得改改。

Actually, let's change that.

然后我们重新做了，结果它变成了一个非常成功的产品。

And then we sort of redid it and then it became a really successful product.

而且，我见过很多这样的例子，这让我对批评和反馈更坚强了，因为有时候你会搞错。

And, you know, I I've seen that many case many cases of like and that's helped I think that's helped harden me to the sort of critique and feedback of things because, you know, sometimes you get it wrong.

有时候你尝试一些东西，有时候就是得把它推出去，然后慢慢调整，听取反馈，不断迭代。

Sometimes you try something, and sometimes it is just about having to, like, put it out in the world and work through it and and get the feedback and and iterate.

我觉得更重要的是不是你一次推出什么，而是你怎么应对，怎么向前修正，怎么继续迭代，怎么倾听用户的声音。

And I think that that's, like, the more importantly is not sort of what you shift one time, but how you react and how you, you know, how you kind of like fix forward and how you continue to iterate and listen to listen to your users.

在这个圈子里，一个很常见的主题就是，大家的职业生涯其实一路走来大部分都是失败。

That's a very common theme in this corner is just people's careers are like, it's mostly failure along the way.

对。

Yeah.

确实。

Definitely.

所以我觉得这对大家来说，听听这些是很有帮助的。

And so I think that's helpful for people to hear.

是的。

Yeah.

好。

Okay.

在我们进入非常刺激的快速问答环节之前，你还有什么想分享但还没提到的吗？

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you wanted to share that we haven't covered?

如果让我总结一下的话，我希望这真的是一段特别有趣的时光，能让大家尽情去创造东西。

If I could distill it, it's like, I hope that this is just like a really fun time to build build stuff.

而且我希望，你知道，我们作为设计师能够非常灵活，专注于做出真正有趣、真正出色的作品。

And I hope that we, you know, as designers can be really adaptive and focus on making really fun making really great stuff.

而且我觉得设计师们，你知道，我觉得伟大的公司都在寻找设计师，寻找伟大的设计。

And I and I and that I think that designers are just like hope you know, I think I think great companies are are seeking designers and seeking great great design.

我发现这确实是真的。

And I found that to be really true.

可能有很多公司因为没有转型而被甩在后面。

There probably have been a bunch of companies that will be left behind because they haven't shifted.

但我认为，优秀的设计还有很大的空间，而且这一点会比以往任何时候都更加重要。

But I think that that there's plenty of room for amazing, great design, and that's gonna be more true than ever.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我对设计非常看好。

I'm very bullish on design.

是的。

Yes.

好的，Ian，说到这里，我们进入了非常激动人心的快问快答环节。

Well, Ian, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我有五个问题要问你。

I've got five questions for you.

你准备好了吗？

Are you ready?

好的。

Okay.

准备好了。

Yes.

好。

Alright.

那我们开始吧。

Here we go.

你经常向别人推荐哪两三本书？

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

我不是那种，你知道，挺有意思的。

I'm not like you know, it's funny.

我不是那种特别爱推荐书的人。

I'm not like a big big book recommender.

我觉得，当别人问我时，确实会有人问我关于设计方面的书，但我还没找到很多真正让我印象深刻的，纯粹是设计类的。

I think, like, when people ask me I do get asked about, like, books for design, and I'm not haven't found that many that really have stuck with me, like, purely design.

不过我得说，我确实很喜欢《设计中的设计》这本书。

Although I will say I have I do love the design of everyday things.

我觉得那真是经典中的经典。

I think that's, like, such a classic.

就是那本，就是那本

That's the one that's the one that

我刚才说的那本。

I was talking about.

也不是说，对。

It's not like yeah.

这个推荐不算特别，但它确实是思考设计方式的一个经典之作。

It's not a unique recommendation, but it it is just kind of a classic of thinking about how you how we think about design.

对。

Yeah.

不管你是不是搞技术的，都得读一读。

You have to read it if you're in tech or not in Yeah.

太棒了。

Awesome.

还有别的吗，还是我们继续往下聊？

Anything else there, or should we keep moving?

我们可以继续。

We can keep moving.

好。

Yeah.

那就继续吧。

Let's do it.

最近有没有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？

Favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

好的。

Okay.

我其实有一个，不是电影也不是电视剧，而是……我现在在纽约。

So I have one that actually is not a movie or TV show, but it's a I I'm in New York.

我刚看了一场百老汇演出，对。

I just saw a Broadway show Yeah.

叫《也许幸福结局》。

Called maybe happy ending.

是的。

Yes.

我看过。

I've seen it.

很喜欢。

Love

我太喜欢了。

it so much.

是的。

Yes.

哦，你也看了。

Oh, you saw it.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

它真的很特别。

It was so unique.

对吧？

Right?

而且，当然，它有点触动我心，因为它是关于那些超级智能的人形机器人，你懂的。

And, of course, it kind of hit home a little bit because it's about these, like, super intelligent humanoid robots and, like you know?

但是制作真的非常棒。

But but the the production was incredible.

布景设计，所有的一切，我都觉得特别独特，我是这么觉得的，对。

The set design, everything about it, I thought was, like, so unique, which was I thought, yeah.

所以如果你有机会去看的话，我觉得真的非常非常好。

So if you have the chance to see it, I thought it was really, really good.

我还刚看了《The Invite》，我以为你看过了呢？

I also just saw the invite, which was I thought you seen it?

是的。

Yes.

我也很喜欢。

Also, love it.

它很简单，但特别好。

It's so simple, but so good.

这正是我喜欢它的地方，就是它特别简单。

It that's what I loved about it is it's, like, so simple.

其实它就像一部话剧，你知道吗，就是四个人在一个漂亮的公寓里，布景设计特别棒。

It's like it actually is like a play, you know, and it's just four people in one kind of beautiful apartment, and the set design's amazing.

但是，剧本、表演，所有的一切都特别出色，整个过程就像一场疯狂的旅程。

But, like, the writing, act everything about it was, like, incredible, and it's just kinda a wild ride.

而且我事先对剧情一无所知，我觉得它太棒了。

And I wouldn't knowing nothing about it, I thought it was incredible.

品味真好，先生。

Excellent taste, sir.

我太喜欢这两部了。

I love both those so much.

而且《邀请》刚上映。

And the invite just came out.

现在正在影院上映。

It's in theaters right now.

对。

Yeah.

下一个问题。

Next question.

你最近发现并特别喜欢的产品是什么？

Favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

我觉得我推荐这个有点像典型的硅谷人，但经过很长时间开过很多车之后，我终于换成了电动车。

I I feel kinda like a typical Silicon Valley person recommending this one or something, but I did finally switch to an EV after having many cars for a long time.

我买了一辆Rivian，我也不知道怎么说。

I got a Rivian, and I don't know.

我真的很欣赏它的设计，他们做得确实很好。

They just the I do respect the design a lot of just kind of how they've really made it.

我觉得，可能特斯拉也差不多，但很多关于开车应该怎么操作的旧观念都被颠覆了。

Just all of the they like, I think if you know, probably Tesla's similar, but, like, there's a lot of assumptions that how get operating a car should work or have gone away.

你走过去，它就自动解锁。

You just walk up to it and it unlocks.

你懂吧？

You know?

就像，你不需要，比如，开关车，看到这种变化真的很酷。

It's like, you just, like you don't have to, like, turn on and off the car, and it's cool to see, like, that evolving.

当然，你知道，Waymo的车，如果我现在能拥有一辆Waymo，那绝对是世界上最神奇的体验。

Of course, I love you know, at Waymo's are probably if if I could, like, own a Waymo right now, that is the most magical experience in the world.

我正热切期待它能普及到所有人。

And I I'm waiting on bated breath for that to to be broadly accessible for everybody.

你有没有一个生活座右铭，在工作或生活中经常用到？

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in work or in life?

不一定有，但我觉得，如果要总结我对这一切的感受，那就是：享受其中，大胆尝试。

Not necessarily, other than I think it, like, kinda trying to sum up, like, how I felt about all of this is, like, have fun with it and, like, just try stuff.

而且，你知道，我从不觉得你必须被框在一个特定的模式里，要知道，你的工作方式或思维方式完全可以灵活多变，保持弹性和适应能力。

And, you know, I think don't feel like I've never felt like you have to fit into a specific box and know that it's perfectly alright to be very fluid about the way you work or the way you think about things and, you know, be flexible and adaptable.

不过，这也不算是什么座右铭。

But, yeah, it's not quite a life motto.

更像是一种态度，就是尽量享受过程，做出好东西。

It's more of a vibe of just trying to, like, have fun with it and and build great stuff.

我应该把这个问题改成，就是那种感觉是什么样的。

I I I should shift this question to what's just like the vibe.

对你来说，哪种感觉最有帮助？因为我特别喜欢那个。

What's the vibe that's been helpful to you because I love that.

这很像山姆·奥特曼的风格，就是你可以直接去创造东西。

It's very a Sam Altman in terms of just you can just build stuff.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

最后一个问题。

Last question.

我很喜欢你职业经历中的一点，如果你看你的领英，你在Groupon做过设计师。

Something I love about your career history, if you look at your LinkedIn, you're a designer at Groupon.

我很喜欢你之前在Groupon的经历，现在你又在负责超级智能的设计。

I love that you're at Groupon, and now you're heading design for essentially super intelligence.

你在Groupon学到了什么，现在对构建超级智能AI有帮助？

What's something you learned at Groupon that is is being is maybe helpful these days building super intelligent AI?

这个问题问得好。

I love that.

Groupon是个很有意思的公司。

Groupon was a really fun company.

Andrew Mason是个非常出色的CEO，他给产品注入了很多个性。

Andrew Mason was, like, a really incredible CEO and just that he brought such character to the product.

你知道吗？

You know?

那是一个以品牌为主导的产品。

It was, like, kind of a brand led product.

而且，我们当时还有一个喜剧团队。

And, you know, like, we we had a there was, like, a a comedy team.

基本上，他们有一个编剧团队，但那些人其实都是喜剧演员。

There were, a writer team at at but they were, like, all comedians, basically.

而且这个产品真的不怎么把自己当回事，至少在最初的两三年里是这样。

And the product really did not take itself seriously, at least in its early early couple years.

它就是不把自己当回事，我觉得品牌因此特别突出。

It was like it was it didn't take itself seriously, and I think that the brand really stuck out.

对吧？

Right?

你注册Groupon不是因为——当然，每日优惠确实很棒。

You weren't signing up for Groupon because I mean, of course, the daily deal was great.

你能拿到五折之类的优惠。

You were getting, like, 50% off something.

但人们喜欢那封邮件，是因为它写得特别好，很有趣，而且很有个性。

But people loved that email because it was, like, really well written, and it was funny, and it was and it had character.

我觉得公司早期在品牌和拥抱这一方面做得非常好。

And I thought that, like, the early on, the company did a really good job with with brand and sort of embracing that side of things.

而且我觉得另一件事，如果我要继续往下说的话，就是我发现在我工作过的每家公司都有非常独特的DNA。

And and I think the other thing, if I were to carry that forward, is I found that every company that I've worked for has such unique DNA.

而且你工作的方式可能会根据这个而有所改变。

And the way you have to work kind of maybe changes a little bit based on that.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你知道，Groupon是一种运作方式。

So I you know, Groupon was run one way.

你懂吗？

You know?

然后我去了Instagram，那是一个非常注重设计和创意的公司。

Then I went to Instagram, which was like this very design and and creativity focused.

而且凯文，你知道，凯文·斯特罗姆，他真的是一个非常出色的设计师，他看待自己或者和我们一起工作的方式就是这样，真的很酷，这也创造了一种不同的工作方式。

And Kevin's you know, Kevin Systrom was, you know, really, like, an incredible designer, and he he sort of saw himself or, like, worked in that way with us, which was really cool, and it just created a different way of working.

然后还有像山姆·奥特曼这样的人，他的运作方式完全不同，而且，你知道，我觉得OpenAI作为一个研究实验室，也是这样的。

And then you have, like, Sam Altman, who's, like, a completely different way of operating, and he's, like, you know, I think and then and OpenAI being a research lab.

所以，我学到了公司之间确实有非常不同的文化基因，也学会了如何接受它们、利用它们，或者说帮助它们发挥出来，或者说是顺应它们。这在我换工作、有机会在不同公司工作的过程中，学到了很多。

And so learning that companies have these really different DNAs and understanding how to sort of embrace them and kinda leverage that to your like, or help kind of, like, empower that or, like, I guess, lean into that has been something that I've learned a lot from moving around and getting the opportunity to work at very, very different companies.

而且我想补充一点，重要的是你要意识到你改变不了那种文化。

And also just to add to that, it's also important to realize you're not gonna change that.

你不可能一进去就改变那种文化，因为那非常难，尤其是如果公司非常以创始人为中心的话。

You're not gonna, like, come in and change that culture because that's that's very hard, especially if it's very founder oriented.

我觉得关键是要找到那种感觉，哇。

I think it's about finding, like, oh, wow.

比如在OpenAI，你知道，是的。

Like, at OpenAI, you know, yeah.

当然。

Sure.

比如，我们在Instagram花的时间更多，但速度明显更慢，而且我觉得我们改动产品更少。

Like, we spent more at Instagram, we definitely moved slower, and I would say that we we changed the product less.

而实际上，这在Instagram的大部分阶段都运作得很好。

And that actually worked really well for most stages of of Instagram.

但我觉得在OpenAI目前这个阶段，那种工作方式可能行不通。

But I don't think that that would work in in the current stage of where we're at with OpenAI in that way of working.

当然，我确实带了很多东西过来，而且我觉得，你知道吗，在Instagram我们有个口号，就是先做简单的事，我们一直用这个。

Of course, I bring a lot to that, and I think, like, you know, at Instagram, we had this motto, like, do the simple thing first, and we always use that.

我们真的很认同这个。

We really embrace that.

我也试着把这个理念带到OpenAI做产品的方式里，但那不是我唯一的工作思路。

I've tried to carry that through to the way I think about building product at OpenAI, but that's not the only way I think of working.

你懂吗？

You know?

有时候，这不一定就是正确的思考方式。

Sometimes it's actually not necessarily the right way to think about it.

有时候我们确实会扔掉一些还在试验中的东西。

Sometimes we actually do throw some things out that we're still experimenting with.

所以，我觉得真的需要灵活一点，不是非得去改变它，而是试着去完善它，让它更全面。

And so just being really I found that having to, yeah, be flexible and, not necessarily trying to change it, but try trying to kinda, like, help round it out maybe.

伊恩，你现在在世界上所处的位置真是太棒了，能接触到这么酷的技术，这么前沿的东西。

Ian, what a what an incredible place you have in the world right now just being on the inside of such cool technology, such cutting edge stuff that's happening.

而且我觉得非常幸运，你能抽出时间来和我们聊天，分享你看到的和未来的方向。

And I feel very fortunate that you found time to chat with us and share what you're seeing, where things are heading.

最后两个问题。

Two final questions.

如果你想推荐点什么，你想让大家去哪里？

Where do you wanna point people if you wanna plug anything?

听众们怎么才能帮到你呢？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

我想让大家去哪里？

Where do I wanna point people?

我觉得，大家尽情享受我们做的ChatGPT和Codex吧，然后尽管提反馈和想法。

I mean, I think that please, you know, I guess use you know, have fun with with the stuff we're making with ChatGPT and Codex and fire away feedback and thoughts.

我在推特上。

I'm on Twitter.