"卖的是优势，而非功能"：从百万到千万美元年收入的ToB销售秘籍 | Jen Abel

务必按企业级标准来构建方案。

Ensure that you structure it for an enterprise.

别用中小企业那套玩法对待企业级客户。

Don't play the small business game with an enterprise company.

详细说说这件事。

Talk more about that.

这是什么意思？

What does that mean?

假设你是PLJ，像沃尔玛这样的大公司来找你，说，嘿。

Let's say you're PLJ, and an enter big company like Walmart comes to you and is like, hey.

能否为我们三个用户开通权限？

Can we get access for three of our users?

他们觉得这太令人兴奋了。

And they're like, this is so exciting.

然后他们按小企业定价向沃尔玛出售三个用户的许可。

And then they sell them the small business pricing for three users to Walmart.

现在很难将这三个按小企业方式定价的用户转化为10万美元的单子，因为已经白纸黑字记录了他们的实际支付金额。

Very, very hard now to go from those three users that you just priced them at a small in a small business way to turn that into a 100 k because now it's documented what they're actually paying for this.

所以你被卡住了。

So you're stuck.

你等于是把自己锚定在这个价格上了。

You've kind of, like, anchored yourself to this price.

更不用说，你要如何解锁高管层面的价值，才能让高层认可并批准这个方案。

Not to mention, like, what's the how are you gonna unlock the executive high level value so that you can get that so you can get someone can get that senior executive to buy in and stamp this as well.

否则就只能走信用卡支付，但这样一来你又彻底毁了自己的企业级市场策略——因为你把自己锚定在小企业价格上了。

Otherwise, it's just gonna be throwing it on the credit card, but, like, again, you've just ruined your enterprise game because you're anchoring to a small business price.

所以这就是为什么混淆这两种商业模式极其危险，毕竟对方都是非常精明的公司。

So this is why, like, when you bleed these two games, it's very, very, very dangerous because these are really smart companies.

他们会说：等等，

They're gonna say, well, wait a second.

我去年才付了9000美元，现在你要收我9万美元？价值提升的阶梯在哪里？

I just paid $9,000 last year and now you wanna charge me $90,000 Well, what's the step change in value?

有什么不同，我现在获得的10倍价值是什么？

What's the different, what's the 10X value I'm now getting?

这超级难证明。

That's super hard to prove.

所以这里的建议是，初始定价如果出错真的会让你吃大亏。

So the tip here is your initial price will really screw you if you get it wrong.

显然我们不会完全透露定价策略的答案，但建议就是——直接提高收费？

And so obviously we're not gonna give people the answer on their pricing strategy fully, but just is the advice just charge more?

比如，你有什么建议？

Like, what would you recommend?

企业公司已经非常习惯我说的'登陆合同'——也就是首份初始合同。

It is enterprise companies are very used to a land when I say, like, the first initial contract.

金额通常在7.5万到15万美元之间。

This is somewhere between 75 k and 150 k.

他们对此习以为常。

Very used to that.

事实上这很可能就是你该起步的价位，因为你也需要了解未来增长空间。

In fact, that's probably where you wanna start because you also wanna understand where can you grow from this.

先限定范围。

Start contained.

别一开口就是15万把老本都押上。

Don't say 150 k and sell the farm.

就说定价15万。

Say it's 150 k.

这是能获得服务的客户范围。

Here's who's gets access.

这是我们将提供的价值，以及这是我们未来的发展方向。

Here's the value we're gonna deliver, and, here's where we're going over time.

你还想让他们了解我们在第二年和第三年大致计划做什么。

You also want them to know here's what here's how what we plan to do roughly in year two, year three.

我知道看得那么远很难，但要给他们种下关于未来方向的种子。

I know it's hard to look that far out, but, like, plant the seed with them in terms of where this is going.

如果你一开始报价1万美元，那么即使他们想和你合作并愿意花10万美元，他们也得能自圆其说。

If you come in at $10,000, it's so even if they want to bring you in and wanna spend 100 k for with you, they have to be able to defend that.

现在他们看到1万美元的报价，事情会变得很混乱——尤其是现在很多人都在用AI来理解合同。

And now they see a $10,000 it's just it it can get really messy, especially because a lot of them are using AI now to understand like contracts.

所以他们很快会说：等等...

So they're gonna quickly say, oh, wait.

你之前只花1千美元和Lenny合作，现在Lenny要价10万美元。

You spent a thousand dollars with Lenny, and now Lenny's asking you for a 100 k.

很好。

Great.

只需要帮我理解原因或证明合理性。

Just just help me understand why or defend it.

我完全能想象ChatGPT会说：这真有意思。

I could totally see ChatGPT being like, this is interesting.

以前是1千美元。

Used to be 1 k.

现在是10万美元。

Now it's 100 k.

这中间可能发生了什么？

What might be going on here?

完全同意。

Totally.

但人们没意识到——要清楚自己在玩什么游戏，别马虎对待。

But people don't realize, you know, how danger how again, know the game you're playing and don't be sloppy about it.

所以你的建议真的很有趣。

So your advice here is really interesting.

看，那里有土地可以扩展。

It's, there's the land there expand.

扩展非常重要，但落地可能会破坏扩展，因为它设定了错误的参照。

Expand is, very important, but the landing may screw your expanding because it sets the wrong reference

1000%同意。

1000%.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

你说得比我更到位。

You said it better than I did.

所以你可能看到，理论上，如果从1万做到10万，那净收入留存率会非常惊人。

And so you may see, like, Matt like, in theory, if you land a 10 k, go to a 100 k, that's like an amazing NRR.

所有人都会对此印象深刻。

Everyone's gonna be really impressed.

没错。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

但你说人们不会买账。

But you're saying people won't won't buy into that.

他们会觉得这既荒谬又不对劲。

They're it's gonna feel absurd and wrong and something

除非它能自圆其说。

Unless it's defendable.

唯一需要的就是能自圆其说。

The all it needs to be is defendable.

但谁能真正辩护呢？

But who can really defend?

要为一个10倍10倍跳跃辩护非常困难。

That's very hard to defend a 10 x 10 x jump.

他们会希望看到15倍的价值。

They're gonna wanna see 15 x value.

我们来谈谈设计合作伙伴吧。

Let's talk about design partners.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这是大多数创业者都会尝试去做的事情。

This is something most founders try to do.

他们会找几个人一起合作来帮助他们构建产品。

They find a few folks to work with to help them build the thing.

你对于何时开始寻找设计合作伙伴、如何寻找设计合作伙伴以及良好合作关系应该是什么样的有什么建议？

What's your advice on when to start finding design partners, how to find design partners, what a good relationship looks like?

设计合作伙伴非常了不起。

Design partners are incredible.

他们是最难向上销售的客户，也就是从设计合作伙伴转变为全面推广客户。

They are the hardest logos to upsell, meaning go from design partner to full rollout customer.

所以，别指望这些人会成为你的百万美元销售渠道。

So, like, don't expect these people to be your million dollar pipeline.

期待这些人成为帮助你理解的向导。

Expect these people to be the guide to help you understand.

也许设计合作伙伴可以是，你知道的，财富1000强中的一家科技公司。

Maybe design partners could be, you know, a technology company in the in the fortune 1,000.

所以，他们已经习惯了进行实验。

So, they're they're used to experimenting.

他们习惯了科技。

They're used to technology.

他们习惯了，他们曾经是初创公司，所以他们懂。

They're used to, they were once a startup so they get it.

这些是非常好的设计合作伙伴。

Those make really good design partners.

我合作过的大多数设计合作伙伴通常都是技术型的。

Most of the design partners that I've closed are usually like technology based.

对吧？

Right?

他们懂这个。

They they get it.

而且他们也热衷于推动组织发展，同时让团队保持那种初创公司的感觉。

And they also are excited about, you know, advancing the org and also giving the team an ability to have that startup feel.

所以，比如像Stripe这样的大型企业，对吧？

So, like, you know, if you're a large massive corporation like Stripe, right?

Stripe已经不太能感受到那种50人初创公司的氛围了，但我们可以给他们这种视角、这种声音和这种兴奋感，这是他们作为大公司所缺乏的。

Stripe doesn't get that startup vibe as much like that 50 person startup vibe but like this can be a gift to give them that lens and give them that voice and give them that like excitement, that they, you know, don't get as a larger company.

但这些都是很棒的合作标志，因为首先，他们想确保自己始终站在技术前沿。

But there those are great types of logos to be, you know, early design partners because one, they wanna make sure they're on the they're they continue to stay on the that cutting edge.

其次，没有这种指导的情况下尝试构建产品真的非常非常困难，因为他们并不使用它。

But two is they are to try and build something without that guidance is really, really, really hard because they're not using it.

所以你需要用户反馈，也需要将其与高管价值挂钩。

So you need that that you need that user feedback and you also need to tie that to the executive value.

对吧？

Right?

所以这其实涉及很多方面。

So it's actually a lot.

这非常难做到。

It's very hard to do.

但如果你能从中脱颖而出，将设计合作伙伴转化为全面推广客户，这对市场、对你、对你的团队，还有对你的投资者来说都是巨大的胜利，因为这是最难真正转化的客户类型。

But if you can come out of it and upsell a design partner to a full rollout customer, such huge such a huge win for the market, for you, for your team, and also for your investors because it's the hardest customer to actually truly convert.

他们在混乱时期就参与其中。

They've been it when it was messy.

他们通常拿到的是低价位，但如果你重新设定框架，比如说，听着，我非常希望你能成为设计合作伙伴。

They got a really they usually got a low price point, but if you again frame it, say, listen, I would love for you to be design part.

我需要你投入一点成本来促成这件事。

I want a little skin in the game to get you to put it.

这是我们想要达到的目标，你会获得折扣，因为你是早期参与者，但我要先设定好框架。

Here's where we want to go, and you'll get a you'll get a discount because you you were in the in the beginning, but I'm setting the framing.

这是我们预期的定价方向。

Here's where we want to go with pricing.

这是我们当前的定价水平。

Here's where we are today.

你将永远享有30%的永久优惠，因为你是最早支持我们的人。

You'll always have 30% concession in perpetuity because you were there with us on day one.

所以重点不在于要价10美元后，却不期待设计合作伙伴能向上销售并保持价格不变，那样就没有增长空间。

So, again, it's not about, you know, asking for $10.00 and then not expecting that design partner to upsell and keep it flat because there's no growth there.

关键在于获得早期设计合作伙伴，设定框架，掌控框架，并让他们知道你的发展方向。

It's a flat you know, it's about getting that early design partner, set the framing, own the framing, and let them know where you're going.

对于这些大客户来说，10万美元。

Again, $100,000 to these large logos.

如果他们想要，这对他们来说很容易实现。

If they want it, it's very easy for them to get it done.

这里有个非常有趣的核心建议：找到能引领你走向成功的公司。

There's this really interesting underlying piece of advice of finding a company that pulls you in the direction that leads to success.

一家具有远见的公司。

A company that's kind of a visionary.

就像现在大家都想加入的那些知名公司，比如OpenAI、Anthropic和Stripe，这些都是例子。

Like there's all there's like the obvious companies that everyone's always trying to get these days, OpenAI and Anthropic and Stripe, think is one.

对于如何正确选择早期公司，有什么建议吗？有哪些迹象表明这家公司能指引你走向正确的方向？

Any advice for just like picking the right early, what are signs that this is a company that will point you in the right direction?

我认为他们必须属于一个被认为对初创企业友好的品牌，明白吗？

I think they have to be part of a logo that is deemed, you know, startup friendly, right?

或者说，属于那个领域。

Or or, you know, in that world.

然后我觉得关键在人，对吧？

And then I think it's the person, right?

比如，这个人是否热衷于提供反馈？

Like, is this person excited to give feedback?

这个人是否认同我们的发展方向？

Does this person buy in to where we're going?

他们是否和我们一样以不同视角看待这个世界？

Do they see this world differently with like us?

他们是否完全认同创始人的愿景？

Do they buy are they in lockstep with the founder vision?

他们是否愿意使用一个粗糙的工具？

Are they excited to to use a tool that's janky?

因为最初阶段它确实很粗糙。

Because it is janky in the beginning.

但他们知道这个工具未来能发展得多么惊人。

But they know they know that where this can go can be incredible.

所以我认为核心在于人，要确保他们对自己将面对的事情有充分共识。

So it's I think it's really about the person and making sure that they're aligned for what they're getting into.

我认为很多人，尤其是销售人员，常常夸大其词。

And I think a lot of people I think a lot of salespeople oversell it.

我觉得这是常有的事。

Think that's a common thing that happens.

对吧？

Right?

这会导致客户流失。

And that leads to churn.

这会导致客户不满。

That leads to frustration.

有时甚至会直接导致合同取消。

That leads to sometimes just canceling the contract.

他们在初期设计合作伙伴阶段就过度承诺。

They oversell the initial kind of design partners.

他们对所有事情都夸大其词。

They oversell everything.

没错。

Yep.

无论是设计合作伙伴还是全面推广阶段。

Design partner or even full rollout.

所以非常重要的是要告诉他们：这是我们的现状。

And it's so, so important to tell them, here's where we are today.

明确告知我们做不到的事情同样重要。

Here's what we cannot do, which is just as important.

这样才能建立信任。

It builds trust.

这是未来六个月我们将允许您操作的范围。

Here's what we will allow you to do in the next six months.

你想和我们一起踏上这段旅程吗？

Do you wanna be on this journey with us?

而且现在的情况真的很糟糕。

And it's really ugly right now.

对吧？

Right?

几乎什么都没有，但我们非常希望听到你的声音参与其中。

Barely anything exists, but like we would love your voice to be a part of it.

我认为创始人最大的恐惧之一就是公司开发的产品只适合他们自己的使用场景，最终却无法被大众广泛采用。

One of the biggest fears I think founders have is having a company pull basically build just for their use case and then it ends up not being used by a lot of people.

那么你该在多大程度上解决他们的具体问题呢？

And so like how far do you go fixing their specific problems?

对于该在单一客户身上投入多少精力，有什么建议吗？

Any advice on just how far to go with one company?

这就是创始人的职责所在。

That is the founder's job.

创始人的职责是保持清晰的愿景，不让任何事物偏离这个方向。

The founder's job is to have a clear vision and do not let anything delineate from that.

重要的是要听取关于市场现实的反馈，但作为创始人，这正是创业如此艰难的原因。

It's important to take feedback in terms of what is the market's reality, but, like, it is the found and this is why being a founder is so hard.

创始人需要解读这些反馈，因为你得到的很多反馈都是基于旧有模式。

It is the founder's job to interpret that because a lot of feedback you get is this is the old way.

他们这样回应是因为这是传统的工作方式。

This is they're responding this way because it's the old way of working.

他们希望你构建这个功能，因为这是他们传统上习惯的做法。

They want you to build this because it's the old that's how they're traditionally expecting to do that.

而不是着眼于我们要到达的未来。

It is not here's where we're going.

这就是我们不这么做的原因。

This is why we're not doing that.

我理解你的意思，但我们不打算这么做，因为我们要彻底改变你们的工作方式。

I hear you, but here's why we're not gonna do that because this we're gonna completely change the way you do this.

这正是创始人的职责所在。记得去年底我们进行了一系列设计合作，收到了大量反馈意见。

That is the founder's job, and I think, you know, I we did a bunch of design partnerships, you know, late last year, and there was a lot of feedback given.

大量的反馈意见。

A lot of feedback given.

但创始人对自己想要的方向非常明确，他认为80%是噪音，只有20%有价值。

But the founder had such clarity with where he wanted to go that he was like, 80% noise, 20%.

如果我没问这个问题，就不会知道他们今天发展得这么好的关键所在。

Had I not asked this question, like, I wouldn't have gotten that gold in terms of where they are today.

这就是二八法则 - 他们给你的建议80%可能与你想要的方向无关或是基于旧方法，但那20%'我从未这样想过'的见解才真正推动一切。

And, like, it's that eighty twenty rule where 80% of what they're gonna tell you is probably going to be not related to where you wanna go or based off of the old way, but that 20% of, like, oh, I did not think about it that way, that drives everything.

你有没有见过设计合作伙伴把公司带偏方向，搞砸他们发展路径的情况？

Have you seen a design partner pull a company come in the wrong direction, just kinda screw their their path?

你见过这种情况吗？还是说这很罕见？

Have you seen that, or is that is that pretty rare?

没有。

No.

我觉得这种情况并不罕见，因为我们经常听到人们抱怨这个。

I think that that I don't think it's that rare because we hear people complain about it all the time.

但我认为这更像是个借口。

But I think it's more of an excuse.

回到关于主攻企业客户还是中小型企业这个问题。

Coming back to this question of going after the enterprise versus SMBs.

你之前给出的建议很明确：不要两头兼顾。

And, again, early advice you gave is there's no don't go in between.

要么选择SMB小型企业，虽然我知道你说过有无数种方式来区分这个概念，但我想可以按员工人数划分，比如低于某个数字算中小企业，超过一千可能就算企业级。

Either pick SMB small company, which I know you said there's a million ways to kind of differentiate what this means, but I guess I think of employee numbers like under some number, over a thousand is maybe enterprise.

这种划分方式合理吗？就是...嗯，你觉得呢？

Is that like a a good way to think about just like Yeah.

这个要看情况。

I mean, it depends.

你是按席位销售，还是按使用量销售，或者...我觉得定价模式也会影响这个划分。

Are you selling per seats or are you selling, you know, based off of usage or are you selling off of like, I think it also depends on the pricing model a little bit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也看员工人数，因为这确实是最直观的衡量方式，你还能据此估算使用量和其他指标。

I I look at head count too because it's just like it's just such an easy way to think about it because you can also gauge usage off that and a bunch of other things.

但有时候，小型企业...我觉得未来会看到更多大公司因为AI而变小。

But sometimes, like, the small companies, like, I think we're gonna see a lot more, like, a lot more larger companies become smaller because of AI.

不是大幅缩减，但高利润率也让他们有更多试错空间。

Not, like, significantly smaller, but but also, like, high margins allow them to experiment more too.

你提出的观点很有意思，就是我们区分企业级和中小企业的标准可能会因AI导致员工数量减少而改变？

That's such an interesting point you're making there that, like, the the way we designate enterprise versus SMB, like, may shift because number of employees may go down with AI?

对。

Yeah.

噢对。

Oh yeah.

太有趣了。

So interesting.

我原本想问的是，当人们在决策时——是选择企业级市场还是初创公司市场，比如YC系公司通常都会优先服务同批的YC项目。

So where I was gonna go with this question is when people are deciding, I'm gonna go enterprise versus I'm gonna sell to startups, like YC companies are the typical example they sell to their own YC batches.

而你刚才给出的建议正是关于这个选择：到底该主攻企业级还是初创市场。

And you just brought advice of picking, okay, we go enterprise versus no, let's actually go startup.

我记得在哪儿读到过这个观点，我完全赞同，因为我亲眼见证过。

I think it's about, and I read this somewhere and I wholeheartedly agree with it because I've seen it live.

我认为关键在于创始人最擅长理解哪种商业游戏？

I think it's about like what game does the founder best understand?

他们是否是个出色的营销专家，拥有某种竞争优势，能够赢得大量用户？

Are they, like, an incredible marketer and have some, like, competitive edge for how they can, like, win a massive audience?

我会建议走中小企业路线并以营销驱动。

I would say go SMB and marketing led.

还是说他们更擅长理解大企业运作，热衷于承接10万美元以上的业务机会，或者他们创造的价值对大企业比对小企业更有吸引力？

Or are they a bit more, you know, really understand how large corporations work and really excited to deliver on a $100,000 plus type of opportunities or the value that they are building for is way more relatable to an enterprise versus a small business.

这个观点非常有意思。

That is really interesting.

我从未听人这样描述过。

I've never heard of it described that way.

我想到Linear这家公司，最初非常初创风格。

I think about linear, which started very startup y.

我的理解是，他们这么做是因为改变工作方式确实很难。

And my take is they did that because changing the way you work is really hard.

他们的策略是：从初创公司开始，伴随它们成长。

And their bet was like, let's start with companies and grow with them.

久而久之，这就成了行业标准。

Over time, that becomes the default.

对此有什么看法吗？

Any reaction to that?

听起来这是个很棒的方式，毕竟这是技术工具对吧？

I think that it sounds like that that's a great way to work because that's a technical tool, right?

所以你们既需要合适的人才，也需要配套的销售体系，对吧？

So that you need to have the right you also need to have the right infrastructure to sell, right?

我觉得Slack，我是说，你看，Slack和微软Teams在企业市场仍在激烈竞争。

Like I think Slack, I mean, look, Slack and the Microsoft teams are still battling it out of the enterprise.

我认为这还取决于你如何接入、如何集成，他们是否有合适的系统来支持你？

I think it's also like how you plug in and how you integrate and do they even have the right systems to support you?

OpenAI的情况是，他们不需要连接任何东西。

The thing with OpenAI and and is like they didn't have to connect to anything.

详细说说这一点。

Say more about that.

人们带来的价值在于他们自己找到了使用场景。

So like the the value people were people were bringing their own use cases to it.

对。

Right.

他们不需要...其实他们已经构建了数据消化能力。

And they don't it's not like they they well, they can ingest and they built that.

这是个全新的事物。

It's a brand new thing.

他们开始...我记得有人告诉我...

And they started they started, I think, I I this is someone told me this.

这可能只是传闻，但我相信他们在发布前就早已开始与CTO们沟通，解释发展方向并获得支持。

So this is this could be hearsay, but I believe that they had they were already speaking to CTOs even well before they released to help them explain where this is all going and get their buy in.

当你承诺'我们甚至不会碰你的数据'时，进入企业市场就容易多了。

And it's and it's much easier to get into the enterprise when you're like, we won't even touch your data.

连你的数据边都不沾。

Won't even touch your shit.

只管用它来解决问题。

Just drop like, use it to solve problems.

然后我们可以逐步建立信任，开始集成并打通数据管道。

And then and then we can build trust and then start to integrate and and connect the and connect the pipes.

但是，企业级销售的部分挑战在于，他们总会说'好吧'。

But, like, part of the challenges with selling in the enterprise, they'll be like, alright.

那么，让我们把你的所有消费者数据都连接起来，就像，哇哦。

Well, let's connect all your consumer data and, like, in the woah.

这风险极高。

That's extremely risky.

所以你必须从小规模、低风险开始，比如'嘿，这是流失消费者的子集'。

So you have to start small and low risk, which is like, hey, here's what is the subset of, consumers that churned.

让我们想想怎样才能让他们更满意，无论是什么方法。

Let's figure out how we could have made them happier, whatever it be.

这样处理数据风险较低。

So that data is lower risk.

所以再次强调，这需要理解你的市场，了解他们进行实验的能力。

So again, it's also understanding your market and understanding, you know, what their ability to experiment is.

OpenAI和Anthropic目前的区别很有意思。

It's interesting this distinction between OpenAI right now and Anthropic.

不知道你有没有关注它们的增长情况。

I don't know if you've been seeing kind of their growth.

感觉OpenAI非常侧重消费者端，而Anthropic在B2B领域越来越成功。

Feels like OpenAI is very consumer first, and Anthropic is more and more winning on B2B.

我最近看到一张图表显示，它们在B2B领域正在超越OpenAI。

I saw this chart recently where they're like overtaking OpenAI now on B2B.

我不确定。

I don't know.

你对这两种不同策略有什么看法？

Any reaction there of just, like, these two different approaches?

我不清楚，因为我接触的大多数企业都提到Gemini。

I don't because most enterprises I'm talking to mention Gemini.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

或者微软Copilot。

Or or Microsoft Copilot.

老实说，我没怎么听说过Anthropic。

So I don't hear much about Anthropic, to be honest.

所以那可能更像是小型创业公司。

So that might be more of like a small business startup y.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

或者可能是组织里其他部门在使用它。

Or or or or it's a different part of the organization that's using it.

没错。

Yeah.

这本身就是个完整的话题，关于Slack和Teams的捆绑，然后Gemini就这样自动整合进来了。

That that's a whole discussion or a bundling right there of, Slack and Teams, and then just, yeah, Gemini just kind of coming in automatically.

人们不需要额外适应任何新东西。

People don't have to adopt anything new.

是啊，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

你提到的另一点我很喜欢但很少听人讨论，就是企业销售其实很有创意性。

There's something else that you talk about that I love that I don't think people talk much about, which is that enterprise sales is very creative.

哦，确实。

Oh, yes.

展开说说这个。

Talk about that.

我个人认为小企业销售实际上——我曾以为它更像科学而非艺术，对吧？

So I personally believe that small business sales is really a I used to think it was more science than art, right?

更像是，你知道，找出无效的方法，进行实验，测试和验证，这些我确实相信。

It was more like you know, figuring out what didn't work, running experiments, you know, testing and validating, which I do believe.

那是那是那是那是为了达到基础。

That's that's that's that's to get to, like, foundations.

比如，我们在哪个领域竞争？

Like, where do we play?

我们想要做什么？

What do we wanna do?

就像那个非常早期的从零到一的阶段。

Like, that early, early, early zero to one.

从一到十，我认为它更像是一门艺术，对吧？

From one to ten, I think it's more of an art, right?

即如何将我的学习成果打包，并掌握框架的主导权。

Which is how do I take my learning and how do I package it up where I own the framing?

我能针对非常具体的阿尔法群体发言。

I can speak to very specific alpha.

我可以展望愿景，随着时间推移，我能比市场更深入地理解问题。

I can, vision cast and where I better understand the problem over time better than the market does.

而这一切都关乎交易设计。

And it's all about deal crafting.

他们只需要感觉从中获得的价值远超成本。

They just need to feel like the value they're getting out of it is way more than the cost.

有时需要放弃那些对你成本很低但对他们极其昂贵的东西。

And it's sometimes about giving away things that don't really cost much to you but are super expensive for them.

例如，嘿，我们正在销售X工具。

For example, hey, we're selling x tool.

我们可以把这个搭建出来。

We can we can build out this.

我们可以专门为你用一年时间开发整合，因为我知道你本需要投入X金额的工程资源，或者你内部本不会有工程负责人来做这件事。

We can build out why specifically for you over the next year and integrate it because I know that you would have spent x number of dollars on engineering resources or you wouldn't have gotten an engineering head internally to do this.

但我们打算把它交给你。

But we're just gonna leave it to you.

你得给我们一年时间来开发它。

You gotta give us a year to build it out.

再说一遍，你不能让他们过多地分散你的注意力。

Again, you're not blow you're not letting them sidetrack you too much.

你正在控制局面。

You're kind of containing it.

我们将免费为你完成这项工作。

We'll do that for you at no additional cost.

这是巨大的价值。

That's huge value.

对吧？

Right?

或者，嘿，我们要举办一个活动，希望你能站在最前线。

Or, hey, we're gonna run, we're gonna run an event and we want you at the forefront of it.

我们希望你能作为演讲嘉宾。

We want you to be a speaker.

巨大的价值，对吧？

Huge value, right?

所以所有这些附加内容都在创造超越产品本身的价值，但它们都是产品和愿景的一部分，对吧？

So it's like all of these additional things that add value beyond just the product but are all part of the product and the vision, right?

要知道，大家都以为产品只是他们拿到手的东西。

You know, everyone keeps thinking the product is just what goes into their hand.

产品定价是关键。

The product is pricing.

产品的核心在于机遇定位，要避免让客户将你与其他选择直接比较。

The product is the opportunity, the framing, and not letting them compare you to something else.

记得我们首次通话就讨论过，一旦你沦为被比较的对象，成为他们测试的三选一方案，某种程度上就已经输了。

And I know we talked that on our first call, which is as soon as you become a comparison, as soon as you become one of three that they're testing out, you've already sort of lost.

差异化才是王道，对吧？

It's all about differentiation, right?

重点在于：通过我们今天的服务，明天你将获得怎样的能力提升。

And it's all about here's what you will be able to do tomorrow because of how we're going to serve you today.

说到这个，我想起我们初次交流时你提出的独特观点——服务是切入企业的最佳途径。多数创始人会说'别做手工活，要打造可规模化的产品'。

So along those lines, it reminds me in our first chat, you actually made this point that I've never heard anyone else make, which is that services are a really good way to start getting into the companies that were most founders here like, no, don't just like, don't do manual stuff for the company, build a product that you can scale.

你的建议恰恰相反。

Your advice is the opposite.

实际上应该从销售服务开始。

Actually start with sell services.

详细说说这个观点。

Talk about that.

企业客户的首要采购项目就是服务。

Enterprises, the number one thing they buy services.

他们对此驾轻就熟。

They know how to do it.

操作极其简单。

It's super easy.

这类采购他们常年进行。

They do it all of the time.

堪称他们最稳定的常规操作。

It's like the most consistent thing they do.

这是他们最大的预算项目，对吧？

It's their largest budget item, right?

外部资源、咨询顾问之类的。

External resources, consultants, whatever.

如果他们对该问题的理解非常不成熟，或者某种程度上从未购买过技术来解决它，对吧？

If they have a very immature way of understanding the problem or they've never purchased technology to solve it to some extent, right?

要么你在做前所未有的事情——这在当今时代很罕见，要么他们可能只是技术采用上的落后者。

Either one, you are doing something that's never been done before, which is like rare in today's day and age, or they might just be like laggards on the journey.

所以你必须决定，这真的是你想合作的客户吗？

So you have to decide, is this someone you really want to be working with?

如果是的话，即使技术是后端支撑，以服务形式销售仍是打开市场的最快方式。

And if so, selling them as service, even though the technology is powering it on the back end, is the fastest way to get your foot in the door.

这是他们熟悉的采购方式。

It's they it's what they know how to buy.

关键在于，一旦售出服务、打开局面后，就要引导他们转向产品。

Now the idea is that once you sell that service, once you get that foot in the door, then it's to guide them towards the product.

嘿。

Hey.

你在这里花费太多了。

You're spending so much here.

我们何不让你开始使用一直支撑这项服务的技术工具，逐步将人力服务转为技术驱动？

Why don't we move why don't we get you to come in and leverage the tool that's been powering this the whole time and move this more into technology technology serving you versus the human?

哇。

Wow.

我觉得这会让很多人震惊。

I think this will blow a lot of people's minds.

Palantir。

Palantir.

Palantir，这位前线部署工程师。

Palantir, this forward deployed engineer.

这正是他们正在做的事情。

That's exactly what they're doing.

对吧？

Right?

就像，你知道，有很多公司都在这么做，我确信OpenAI也是这样，这是有人告诉我的。

Like, you know, it's there's, you know, there's a lot of companies out like, I'm sure OpenAI and this is what someone told me.

他们深入企业，与首席技术官们交流，帮助他们更好地理解人工智能如何与组织更高效地协作，他们在这个过程中提供指导和培训，至于是否免费，我就不清楚了。

They were in and talking to CTOs and helping them better understand how AI and their organization can better work together and it was them coaching them and educating them whether they did it for free or not, I don't know.

但他们成功打开了局面。

But they got their foot in the door.

他们开始建立信任，然后技术就被采纳了。

They started to build trust and then it gets adopted.

这就是做那些无法规模化之事的典范。

This is the epitome of doing things that don't scale.

我们常听到的那个建议。

That advice we always hear.

这就像是，好吧，这就是那个建议的具体体现。

This is like, okay, this is what that looks like.

比如我们会为你解决这个问题。

Like we will solve this problem for you.

我们正在用软件来实现它。

We are using software to do it.

随着时间的推移，噢，你可以自己来做这件事了。

Then over time, oh, you could just do this yourself.

这样花费会更少。

It'll cost you less.

你可以扩展这个。

You can scale this.

没错，正是如此。

Yep, that's right.

而且他们一开始甚至不需要知道是软件在操作。

And they don't even need to know at first that software is doing it.

这可能是神奇之处，就像，伙计们，我们真的在用我们的技术实现这一点。

That could be the magic part, which is like, guys, we literally we are literally doing this with our technology.

今天的节目由Coda赞助播出。

Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.

我个人每天都在使用Coda来管理我的播客和社区。

I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.

我把计划采访每位嘉宾的问题都放在这里。

So where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.

我的社区资源也都存放在这里。

It's where I put my community resources.

我就是这样管理工作流程的。

It's how I manage my workflows.

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正如我之前提到的，我每天都在使用Coda，超过50,000个团队信赖Coda来保持更好的协同和专注。

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最近关于'前线部署工程师'概念的讨论很多，这是Palantir公司非常著名的做法。

There's a lot of talk these days about this idea forward deployed engineers, something Palantir was really famous for.

本质上就是让工程师驻扎在客户办公室，像正式员工一样与你们共同解决问题。

Just essentially an engineer sitting in your office solving problems with you, like, basically as an employee.

通过这种方式，他们能了解需要开发什么软件。

And then through that they learn what software to build.

你们是否也观察到这种现象？

Is that something you're seeing too?

当然。

Oh yeah.

我认为很多服务企业的公司...抱歉应该说很多服务大企业的从业者，他们确实会在客户办公室派驻人员。

I think you know I think that that a lot of companies a lot sorry a lot of folks that serve the enterprise they they have a they have a butt in a seat in their office.

你看麦肯锡这类大型咨询公司，顾问们并非总待在总部，而是长期驻扎客户办公室。

Like you look at these large consultancies like McKinsey, they're not in their headquarters or in their client's office all the time.

另一个有趣的现象——也印证了这一点——就是有多少人会把德勤或埃森哲当作渠道合作伙伴来对接。

And the other interesting thing and and proof of this is how many people go to a Deloitte or Accenture and expect them to be a channel partner.

这正是这种模式的核心：他们先销售服务进驻客户，然后引荐说'看看这家初创企业的方案'。

This is exactly what this is all about, which is they sell the service, they come in, and then they introduce, hey, look look at what this startup is doing over here.

或许值得给他们一个机会。

You might wanna give them a shot.

渠道合作的问题以及我不看好的原因在于，这份名单上有上百个像你这样的公司，对吧？

The problem with channel partnerships and why I don't believe in them is there are a 100 of you on this list, right?

而你却指望他们能代表你去销售。

And you're expecting them to sell it on your behalf.

最大的误区在于，他们不是愿景塑造者，不是远见者，他们只是顾问。

Biggest no, no, they're not vision casters, they're not visionaries, they're consultants.

但这完全像是在说‘去战斗吧’。

But this goes all towards like go fight.

我记得有初创公司说过，我要去争取埃森哲，然后让他们把我推广给他们的客户。

You know, I remember startups saying, oh, I'm going to go, you know, win over Accenture and then have them disseminate me into their clients.

我当时就想，这算什么可行策略。

And I'm like, as if that's a workable strategy.

好的。

Okay.

或许我可以试着总结一下你目前分享的最佳建议。

You know what might be helpful is let me try to summarize some of the best pieces of advice you've shared so far.

这特别针对那些试图从百万ARR跃升至千万ARR的团队。

And this is specifically for folks trying to go from about a million ARR to about 10,000,000 ARR.

接下来我想问这两个阶段最大的差异是什么，不过先让我分享这个。

And then I want to ask you just what's most different about these two stages, but let me share this first.

第一条建议是：争取一线客户的时间应该比你想象的更早，因为他们是早期采用者，行动迅速，能引领你走向正确方向。

So advice one is go for tier one logos earlier than you think you should, because they're early adopters, they can move fast, they can pull you in the right direction.

而且他们还能让投资者兴奋。

And they excite investors too.

确实如此。

Yeah, for sure.

其他潜在客户也...

And other and other leads are.

以及其他人才，未来的员工。

And and and other and other, you know, talent, future employees.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这里反直觉的洞见是：你以为他们会行动迟缓、忙于事务，但实际上他们才是早期的采用者。

So the counterintuitive, insight here is you think they will move slow and be too busy, but in they are actually the early adopters.

说得对。

That's right.

没错。

Yeah.

他们必须保持第一的位置。

They have to maintain that number one spot.

而且排名第二、第三、第四的人都会想效仿第一名的做法。

And also all of the people that are in the number two, number three, number four spot, all wanna do what number one is doing.

所以这也像是纯粹的参照效应。

So it's also like pure referenceability too.

关于他们是早期采用者这点，就像加入Stripe、OpenAI和Anthropic的人，他们本身就热爱科技，喜欢最新事物。

And the point about them being the early adopters, like the people that join the Stripes and OpenAI's and Anthropics are like the like they individually love technology and love the latest stuff.

作为人类个体，他们会觉得'哦，这个很酷'。

So as a human, they're like, Oh, this is cool.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

我在自说自话，对吧？

I'm screen with myself, aren't I?

还挺有趣的。

That's kind of funny.

不过确实。

But yeah.

这是个好迹象。

That's a good sign.

所以第二点理想情况下是尝试将价格定在接近10万美元左右，就像你说的，大多数企业习惯购买的价格区间是7.5万到15万美元。

So two is ideally try to price closer to about 100 ks, like 75 to 150 ish K is what you said most enterprises are used to buying.

因此与其长期停留在1万、2万美元的价位，你需要推动自己向7.5万到15万美元的区间迈进。

So instead of starting or even sticking with 10 ks, 20 ks for too long, you need to make yourself go towards 75 to 150 ks.

没错。

That's right.

对。

Yep.

如果要销售服务的话——我知道我们首先讨论的是服务销售——就按时间比例来定价。

And if you were to sell a service, because I know we're talking about selling services first, prorate that over time.

比如可能是每月1万美元。

So maybe it's 10 k a month.

这样他们就会开始习惯这个定价模式。

So they start to get used to what that pricing looks like.

所以这是一种让客户感觉'这就是达到7.5万到15万美元的方式'——通过附加服务来实现。

So this is a way to make it feel this is like how you get to 75 to a 150 k is there's a service attached to it.

不仅仅是'这是我的SaaS产品'。

It's not just here's my SaaS product.

而是'这将为您解决这个问题'。

It's will solve this problem for you.

我们的人会专门为您处理这个。

Our person will be sitting there doing this for you.

是的。

Yeah.

或者说不行。

Or it's a no.

这也是一种技术。

It's a technology too.

我是说，你可以增加服务内容。

I mean, you can add the services.

我总是...让我收回那句话。

I always well, let me take that back.

无论服务是否捆绑在内，有些人会选择解绑服务。

The service whether the services is bundled into it or not, that some people will unbundle it.

其他人会说服务是其中的一部分。

Other people will say the services is a part of it.

但最终净额在7.5万到15万之间。

But, yeah, it nets out to 75 to a 150 k.

没错。

That's right.

好的。

Okay.

你说过从较低的ACV和交易开始没问题，但需要快速推进到10万，比如几个月内。

And you said that it's okay to start lower on ACVs and deals, but you need to push fast towards a 100 k, like, over a few months.

对。

Yep.

没错。

That's right.

比如，如果你能在一个月内以1万进入企业级市场——虽然不太可能——但如果你能做到，并通过扩展策略在四个月内从1万增长到5万，那就完全可行。

Like, if you can get into if you can get into an enterprise for 10 k in a month, which is not doable, but if you could and you could go from 10 k to 50 k in four months through an expansion strategy, all game.

这很合理。

That makes sense.

但这确实非常罕见且难以实现。

But it's really rare and very hard to do.

所以这里其实有两条不同的路径。

And so the so the there's two different paths there.

一条是低价获取客户并快速扩张。

One is land cheap and grow quickly.

另一条是提高客单价，快速拉升平均值。

The other is move your ACV, average up quickly.

看起来后者可能是更常见的策略，就是持续提高价格。

That seems like both are that's the latter is probably the more common strategy is just to keep increasing prices.

前者可能会让你陷入困境，因为他们可能会说：好吧。

The former you can get tripped up because they could say, okay.

现在给我一个为100人服务的经济价格。

Now give me an economical price for doing this for a 100 people.

然后整体就会趋于平衡，因为你最终还是在做10万美元的单子。

And then it all kinda evens out because now you're at the 100 k deal anyway.

你知道，这很难。

You know, but it's hard.

这存在更大的容错空间，所以我建议直接尝试拿下10万美元的单子。

It's much there's more room for error, which is why I say go in and try to land a 100 K.

顺便说，我们第一次聊天时详细讨论过采购流程，这正是让很多人栽跟头的痛点。

By the way, in our first chat, we talked, a lot about the procurement process, which is what trips a lot of people up and is really painful.

那次对话我至今记忆犹新。

And I vividly remember that conversation still.

如果有人卡在销售流程和采购环节，那里有很多好建议。

So if people are having issues getting through the sales process and procurement, a lot of good advice there.

陷入采购困境通常是因为对接人级别不够，他们不知道如何推进，这就是为什么我说必须让高管参与进来。

And getting stuck in procurement is usually because you're not speaking to a senior enough person and they don't know how to navigate it, which is why I'm like that executive needs to be involved.

因为一旦高管拿起电话联系他们的采购团队，事情就会推进。

Because as soon as the executive picks up a phone and tries to get ahold of, like, their buying group, things move.

对吧？

Right?

就像有人说‘我被卡在采购流程了’，我会想‘这可能只是资质不符的问题，但你永远无法脱身，因为你对接的人层级太低’。

Like when people say, oh, I'm stuck in procurement, I'm like, oh, that's a that could just be a qualification error and you never get out of it because you sold to someone too junior.

所以这就是为什么10万美金是个安全区——即使是1万美金的单子，你也可能要走采购流程。

So that's why the 100 K is such a safe zone because even for 10 ks, you might have to go through procurement.

这是确保万无一失的方法，我见过1万美金的单子花了九个月才成交。

So this is like the surest way to make sure that like you don't listen, I've seen 10 ks take nine months to close.

太糟糕了。

No bueno.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以。

So.

好的，下一条建议是：要描绘愿景而非解决问题。

Okay, next piece of advice is this idea of vision casting instead of problem solving.

这里的建议是：与其说‘这是你的问题，这是我们的解决方案’，不如说‘采用这个软件将助你在市场中获得领先优势’。

So the advice here is, instead of here's your problem, here's how our product solves it, here's how you will achieve alpha in the market by adopting the software.

我们讨论过Cursor的例子——采用Cursor就能吸引那些正在加入其他公司的10倍效能工程师。

We talked about the example of Cursor, where if you adopt Cursor, you're gonna draw the 10x engineers that are joining other companies right now.

这将给你带来巨大优势。

This will give you a big advantage.

没错。

That's right.

是的，这是痛苦与机遇的选择，尤其是在AI时代。

And yeah, it's pain versus opportunity, especially in the age of AI.

我知道，我们正在迈向新的维度。

And I know that that's, we're moving into the next dimension.

关键在于填补空白。

It's all about solving for a gap.

很少是为了解决某个非常具体的问题，因为人们正在思考：我们的人工智能战略是什么？

It's seldom about, you know, solving for a very, very specific problem because people are trying to figure out what's our AI strategy?

我们要何去何从？

Where are we gonna go with this?

未来世界会是什么样子？

What is the world gonna look like?

我想成为新世界的一部分。

I wanna be a part of that new world.

所以现在正是行动的好时机。

So it's a great time to be doing that.

我们分享了很多建议，你谈到如何选择设计合作伙伴。

And then there's a bunch of advice we shared you talked you shared, about design partners of just how to select them.

你的建议很明确：一定要有设计合作伙伴，因为他们能帮你做对产品。

Your advice is definitely have design partners because they will help you build the right thing.

但作为创始人，你需要有清晰的愿景和方向感，不能他们要求什么你就做什么。

But as a founder, it's you need to have a clear vision and sense of where you wanna go and not just build everything they're asking you to build.

没错。

That's right.

因为懂得拒绝很重要。

Because it's important to say no.

对吧？

Right?

这些都是框架的一部分。

Like and then and that's all part of the framing.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，我们需要一些利益绑定。

Which is like, here's here's we want a little skin in the game.

你来定价，但我们要明确未来6到12个月的目标方向。

Like, you set the price, but here's where we're here's what we're marching towards in the next six to twelve months.

我们在这方面达成一致了吗？

Like, are we aligned there?

如果我们兑现了承诺，大家还能保持一致吗？

If we prove if we deliver on what we say we're gonna deliver, are we aligned there?

然后就这样握手达成协议。

And and do that kind of handshake.

关于这个阶段，我有没有遗漏什么你认为很重要的事项？

Is there anything else that I missed that you think is really important for this stage?

1到10人的阶段创始人就不再亲力亲为了。

So one to 10 is no longer the founder.

创始人可能只在关键节点介入，但必须配备优秀的企业级销售人才。

Maybe the founder comes in in very strategic points, but you need a really good enterprise salespeople.

对吧？

Right?

让小微企业销售转型做企业级销售？绝对不行。

Taking someone from small business and expecting them to do enterprise sales, big no no.

这完全是不同的玩法。

To it's a different game.

对吧？

Right?

截然不同的玩法。

A different game.

你需要了解企业是如何进行采购的。

You need to understand how corporations buy.

你需要理解高管们的思维方式。

You need to understand how executives think.

你需要更清楚地理解企业商业模式的核心，以及他们承担风险的能力。

You need to better understand simply just, like, what the enterprise business model is all about and, like, their ability to take on risk.

有人会引进超级初级的销售代表。

People will bring in, like, super junior enterprise sales reps.

我就问，你是想向高管推销吗？

And I'm like, you're looking to sell to an executive?

而你派出的这个人刚毕业五年，毫无企业经验。

And you have this ten like, this person that's five years out of school with no corporate experience doing it.

除非他们在行业内有极其深厚的经验，或者就像个销售奇才——能让爱斯基摩人买冰的那种天才。

Again, where unless they have like some extremely, you know, deep experience in the industry or are just like a unicorn in terms of like, wow, this person can sell ice to an Eskimo kind of thing.

初级员工要搞定高管，除非创始人亲自参与，那或许还有可能。

A junior person converting an executive, again, if the founders involved, maybe that's doable.

但通常创始人不可能参与每一笔交易。

But usually the founder can't be involved in every deal.

你需要我说过，你需要能扮演创始人角色的人？

And you need people that can I always say you need people that can cos play a founder?

对吧？

Right?

就是能推销愿景、激发热情、为达成交易赴汤蹈火，并且每次都能创新——我的交易没有两笔是完全相同的。

Which is like selling the vision, getting them excited, like running through a wall to get the deal done and getting creative on how none of my deals look exactly the same.

每笔交易都各不相同。

Every deal looks different.

这很正常，因为每个组织的需求和发展方向都略有不同。

And that's okay because every organization has slightly different opportunities of where they wanna go.

你需要逐步构建这种能力，框架可能会变化。

And you have to kind of build towards that and the framing may change.

关键是要具备根据所听内容调整的能力，并让这种能力随时间累积。

So it's this ability to like adapt from what you're hearing and like let that compound over time.

但我常说，这个人能扮演创始人的角色吗？

But like I always say like, can this person cosplay the founder?

我认为这是最优秀的销售类型，因为它感觉不像销售。

I think that that's the best type of salesperson because it doesn't feel like sales.

这更像是一门艺术。

It's more of the art.

这个建议太棒了。

This is amazing advice.

你见过哪种常见背景的人最成功？

What is a common profile that you've seen be successful?

需要什么级别资历？

What level of seniority?

应该寻找哪些性格特质？

What kind of personality traits to look for?

或许前创始人会是不错人选，如果可能的话。

Maybe a former founder, if you can get that.

因为他们习惯推销。

Because they're used to selling.

对吧？

Right?

他们向投资人推销过，也向员工推销过。

They sold investors and they've sold employees.

第二种是毫无销售经验，但有深厚产品经验或工程师背景的人，他们能以独特视角思考，让市场觉得'哇，这真有趣'。

Two is someone with no sales experience, but has deep product experience or an engineer and can like think about things in a unique way where you can where the market's like, oh, this is so interesting.

把一个典型的销售人员直接放到销售岗位上，几乎总会让人感到沮丧。

Taking a typical salesperson them and putting them into a sales role almost always is where people get frustrated.

市场感觉太推销了。

The market, it feels salesy.

就像市场不想被推销一样。

Like the market doesn't want to be sold to.

他们想要主动购买。

They want to buy.

我知道这很难，要雇佣一个真正优秀的企业销售人员非常困难。

And I know that this is like, it's very hard to hire a really good enterprise salesperson.

对吧？

Right?

我面试过的人里，真正让我眼前一亮的屈指可数。

I mean, the number of people that I've interviewed, I can count on my hand the ones that I get really, really excited by.

这就像遇到一个优秀的创始人一样难得，对吧？

It's almost like coming across a great founder, right?

这种情况并不像大家想象的那么常见。

It's not as common as everyone expects.

我认为工程领域也是如此。

And I think that that's true for engineering.

销售领域也是如此。

I think that that's true for sales.

很多人觉得销售就是随便塞个人进去就行。

And I think a lot of people, sales is like, oh, just throw a body into it.

产品会自己完成销售工作。

The product will do the work.

我常听到的建议是：不要从大公司雇佣那种资深销售副总裁。

Advice I often hear is don't hire a kind of a senior VP of salesperson from a bigger company.

是的。

Yep.

你同意这个观点吗？

Do you agree with that?