影响力的艺术：AI无法取代的最重要技能 | 杰西卡·费恩（Webflow，前Slack）

但在第一个版本、第一次会议上，我们并没有展示这一点，也没有和她一起打磨过。

But in the first version, in the first meeting, we hadn't kinda shown that, and we hadn't workshopped it through her.

所以有时候，从战术上讲，你真的需要准备好这些材料。

And so sometimes, you know, really tactically, you you wanna have that available to you.

不一定非得把所有15个选项都列出来，但至少要能随时展示它们。

It's not necessary to put all 15 options you considered, but at least be ready to show them.

把它们放在附录里。

Have them in an appendix.

放在一个草稿版的Figma文件里，不管用什么方式都行。

Have them in a draft Figma file, whatever it is.

我们以前在和斯图尔特进行设计评审后，有个这样的规定。

We we we used to have this rule after a design review with Stewart.

我们做完设计评审后，他会说：不行。

We'd go through the design review, and he'd say, no.

就照这个做。

Do it exactly like this.

我希望这里的按钮和交互是这样的。

I want, you know, the button here and the interaction to be this.

坦白说，他总是比我们有更好的想法，但我们会回去做两个额外的版本，我们称之为‘Stewart加两个’。

And frankly, he always had better ideas than than we did, but we would come back and we called it Stewart plus two more.

所以我们完全按照他的要求做了，同时还做了两个我们自己觉得不错的版本。

So we did exactly what he asked for, and then two other versions that we felt good about.

这样我们就有了一个平台，可以讨论每种方法的优劣。

And then it gave us a forum for conversation to debate the merits of each type of approach.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

所以这里有很多建议。

So there's a bunch of advice here.

一个是，默认情况下不要一上来就展示整个流程是如何得出这个建议的，但要准备好这些内容，因为他们如果对这个建议不买账，可能会要求看。

One is the default is don't go in with here's our whole process that landed on this suggestion, but have that ready because they may ask for that if they don't buy into it.

另一个是提供多种选择。

Another is present options.

然后，这是我的观点。

And then there's a, here's my point of view.

这是我认为这个方案最合适的理由。

Here's why I think this is the right one.

如果他们深入追问，就要准备好更多的选项。

And then if they dig in, have, be ready for more options.

你有没有了解过明托金字塔原理在表达时的应用？

Have you, have you ever looked into the Minto pyramid way of presenting stuff?

没有，我不了解。

No, I don't

我知道了。

know that is.

好的。

Okay.

这是，有位叫芭芭拉·明托的女士。

This is, there's this, lady Barbara Minto.

她，她大概是五十年代的人，我记得她是麦肯锡第一位女性顾问之类的。

She, she's like from the fifties, I think she was the first female, consultant at McKinsey or something like that.

她基本上发现了向高管展示信息的最佳方式是倒序的。

She kind of figured out the best way to present information to execs is, is backwards.

本质上，它不是先说我们的流程、我们做的所有事情、我们的结论集，然后才是我们的建议，而是反过来，从我们的建议开始，然后是我们探讨的内容，最后是支撑这个建议的证据。

Essentially, it's instead of here's our process, here's all the things we did, here's our set of conclusions, and then here's our recommendation, it's flip it, start with here's our recommendation, and then here's the things we explored, and then here's the evidence behind that.

感觉你刚才描述的情况就有点像那样。

It feels like that's kind of what you're describing.

对，我觉得这个方法特别好。

Yeah, I think that's a really good way of doing it.

我唯一要补充的一点就是，人和人之间的差异其实很大。

I think my only gloss on that would be that people are really different.

是吧？

Right?

高管也是人。

Like execs are people too.

所以我认为非常重要的一点是，要了解针对这个人真正有效的正式格式、叙事方式和前期准备是什么。

And so one of the things that I think is really important is understanding what is the literal format, storytelling, prework that is gonna work for that person.

有些人讨厌PPT，如果你一上来就用PPT，简直会摧毁他们的精神。

You know, some people hate a PowerPoint, and it's just gonna crush their soul if you start doing that.

有些人只想看数据，不想看用户，也就是定性研究的内容。

Some people only wanna see the data and not the user you know, the the qualitative research.

所以我确实认为，关键在于真正理解他们的沟通风格。

And so I do think it is about really understanding their communication style.

高管们，如果你们在听的话，你们如果明确告诉别人，这会非常有帮助，因为你们其实很清楚自己喜欢什么、不喜欢什么。

And execs, if you're listening to this, it's really fucking helpful if you tell people because you actually know what you like and don't like.

所以直接告诉别人吧，我更喜欢看文档。

And so just tell people, I prefer a doc.

我不需要任何前置解释。

I want no upfront explanation.

我希望有十分钟的安静阅读时间，之后我们再聚在一起讨论。

I want ten minutes of quiet reading time, and then we can come back together.

这对非常忙碌的人和短会特别有效，尤其是在远程工作环境下，演示往往效果不佳。

That's a particularly effective, means for for very busy people and short meetings, and especially in remote work where presentations just don't work very well.

有些高管愿意提前阅读材料，有些则不愿意。

Some execs are willing to do prereads, some aren't.

我认为你必须接受他们也是普通人这一事实，你要尽力以对他们有意义的方式传递信息。

And I I think you just have to be willing to accept that they are also human, and you're trying to give them the best shot at implicating the information in the way that is meaningful to them.

所以这里有一些建议，我想总结一下如何为自己创造成功的机会。

So there's a bunch of tips here that I want to summarize for how to of set yourself up for success.

第一点就是你刚才提到的：想想他们最能接受哪种方式？

One is what you just described, which is just think about how do they respond best?

他们最适合什么样的沟通形式？

What kind of setup do they respond best to?

是演示文稿吗？

Is it a presentation?

是直接给出我们的建议吗？

Is it a here's what we recommend?

这里有三个选项。

Here's three options.

是数据吗？

Is it data?

其他东西。

Something else.

关键是了解这个人喜欢什么。

There's like, just understand here's what this person likes.

想要一个五分钟的快速总结，为什么？

Want to like five minutes fast conclusion, why?

然后就是你的建议：去问了解他们的人，他们目前最关心的是什么，因为他们可能会说，这是我们目前最大的投入。

Then there's your advice of ask people that know them what is top of mind for them right now, because they may be like, this is the big bet we're making right now.

如果与这些无关，他们就不会在意。

If it's not aligned with that, they're not going to care.

所以，最好是直接问他们，或者问他们身边的人，他们现在最关心的是什么？

So it's like, ask them or ask people around them, what's top of mind for them right now?

然后还有这个想法：几乎要模拟他们。

And then there's this idea of simulate almost, simulate them.

把之前和他们的所有会议内容输入到像Claw项目这样的工具里，创建一个小型GPT，把你的想法拿给他们看，然后问：你会怎么说？

Feed all the previous meetings with them into say, claw project or something like that, create a little GPT and run your idea by them and, like, what would you say?

我告诉你，我不太喜欢问‘你目前最关心的是什么’这个问题。

I will tell you, I am not a big fan of the what's top of mind for you question.

这是一个有争议的观点，因为我觉得人们通常只是在思考自己的优先事项和主要体验。

This is a hot take because I think that what often people do is they think through their top priorities, their top experiences.

如果你要做一项研究，去了解用户的日常生活，你大概不会问‘你目前最关心的是什么’。

You know, if we were trying to do a research study, to understand the day to day lives of our users, you probably wouldn't say what's top of mind for you.

你会说：告诉我你的一天是怎么度过的。

We'd say, tell me how you spent your day.

你会说：你现在最担心搞砸的紧急优先事项是什么？

We'd say, what's the most urgent priority for you right now that you're really scared about messing up?

你正面临哪些压力？

What, pressures are you facing?

所以我认为，我们可以向我们的高管提出更有意思的问题。

And so I think there's ways for us to ask much more interesting questions of our executives.

我最近对我们的首席执行官做了这件事。

I recently did this with our CEO.

我说：告诉我董事会正在给你施加什么压力，因为每个人都有上级。

I said, tell me what the board is pushing you on because everyone's got a boss.

即使是看起来如此强大、能干且自信的首席执行官，也会承受压力。

And, even a CEO who seems so powerful and competent and and and sure is getting pressures.

对吧？

Right?

你认为决定你成功的关键因素是什么？

What are you seeing as the the the key inputs to your success?

人们没有意识到的是，高管们也想成功。

The other thing people don't realize is execs wanna be successful too.

他们希望把工作做好。

They wanna be good at their jobs.

你该如何帮助他们？

And how can you help them?

我的意思是，在最佳情况下，你们在本地团队或产品组织层面的激励机制，应该与他们所关注的目标高度一致，共同推动对公司真正重要的事情。

I mean, in the best case scenario, your incentives at a local team level or a product organization level really closely aligned with their incentives that you're working on something that really matters to the company.

如果并非如此，你就真的应该进行这样的对话，因为从一开始你们就会出现目标不一致。

If you're not, you really should be having that conversation because you'll be in misalignment from the start.

但如果你确实实现了目标一致，那就明确指出这种一致性。

But if you actually have alignment, point out that alignment.

他们试图推动的指标是什么？

How is the metric that they're trying to move?

他们负责的OKR，或他们所承受的董事会压力，是否会因为你们所提议的举措而得到改善？

The OKR they're responsible for, the board pressure that they're under going to be improved by the thing that you are proposing?

你们该如何共同实现这一目标？

And how do you get there together?

所以我认为，人们在这里常常忽略的一点是，高管的成功标准是什么？

So I think that one of the things people really miss out on here is what are the success criteria for an exec?

你该如何调整自己的思维方式，来放大这种成功，从而让你们双方都能更成功？

And how do you model your world to amplify that success so that both of you can be more successful.

好的。

Okay.

这真是一个非常重要的教训。

That is such an important lesson.

在我们继续这个话题之前，澄清一下这个问题：什么是最优先的？你的建议是，去问他们周围的人，他们最关心的是什么。

Before we follow that thread, just to clarify this question of what is top of mind, your advice was ask people around them what is top of mind for them.

不要直接问他们这个问题。

Don't ask them directly this question.

'最优先的'这个词已经变成了一种陈词滥调。

Top of mind has become this sort of trope.

对吧？

Right?

高管们每周都会写一份关于他们最关注事项的报告，结果这种做法变得陈词滥调、平淡无奇，且被弱化得毫无个性。

It's it's execs write a weekly write up of what's top of mind, and it sort of becomes this generic, uninteresting, sort of neutralized frame.

因此，我认为‘你最关注的是什么’这个问题，实际上已经失去了原有的冲击力。

And so I think the question, what's top of mind for you, has actually lost some of its firepower.

所以我们必须深入挖掘背后的情感和驱动力，找出更能激发有趣回答的、更尖锐的问题。

And instead, we have to get at what is the emotion, the the sort of drive behind it, and and what's the spicier question that'll get a more interesting answer?

那么回到激励机制这一点，这是促使任何人同意你所期望事情的强有力杠杆——也就是了解他们的目标是什么。

So then but going back to those incentives piece, such a powerful lever for getting anyone basically, to get anyone to agree to what you want, which is what are their goals?

他们究竟想做什么？

What are they trying to do?

他们是如何被衡量的？

How are they measured?

他们的成功标准是什么？

How is the success for them?

然后，你向他们推销的这个东西，如何与他们的目标对齐，并帮助他们实现这一具体目标？

And then how is the thing you're pitching them aligning with that and will help them achieve that specific goal?

对。

Right.

在共同打造产品时，你的激励机制应当是帮助用户成功，从而也推动你的业务成功。

And in building products together, your incentives should be making your users successful, making your business successful because of that.

那么，他们实际上对此有什么看法？

And so what do they actually believe about that?

这不仅仅是他们想要升职、不想被解雇，或者想达成他们的销售目标。

It's not just about, oh, they want a promotion or they don't want to get fired or they want to hit their car.

这些都是非常真实的人性需求。

Those are very, very real human things.

但在理想情况下，在产品工作中，核心应该是为用户打造卓越的产品，从而为你的业务带来卓越的成果。

But in an ideal world, in product work, it is really based on building incredible products for your users and therefore great outcomes for your business.

因此，我认为这其中很重要的一点，是理解他们的战略洞察力，以及他们认为最能有效推动业务前进的因素。

And so I think a big part of this is actually understanding their strategic insights and what they believe is gonna move the business forward most effectively.

在我担任首席幕僚之后，我接管了Slack的核心产品团队。

So after I was chief of staff, I took over Slack's core product team.

我们专注于频道、表情符号、搜索和消息功能。

We worked on channels and emoji and search and messaging.

我们的高管团队有一种强烈的感觉，认为我们在产品工艺上有些迷失了方向。

And there was a real feeling from our executive team that we had a bit lost our mojo around product craft.

我们讨论过，就像粉刷橱柜的内部一样。

And we talked about, you know, painting the insides of the cabinets.

我们真的希望为用户提供一种极致的体验。

We really wanted such an amazing experience for our users.

Slack 最初之所以出色，正是因为它的可用性达到了十倍的水准。

That was one of the things that makes made Slack great in the first place was just it really felt like a product that took that usability to a 10 x place.

我从领导层那里听到一种感觉，认为我们还没有达到那种水准，失去了一些原有的优势。

And there was a sense that I had heard from our leadership that we weren't quite there and we had lost some of that.

这对我们是谁以及我们如何为用户服务至关重要。

And that was so, so important to who we were and how we showed up for our users.

因此，我们实施了一项名为‘用户喜爱冲刺’的举措。

And so we implemented something, called the customer love sprint.

我们说，好吧。

We said, okay.

工程师们，停下你们手头的工作。

Engineering, stop what you're doing.

整个团队将花两周时间专注于打磨产品的内在细节。

As an entire team, we're gonna spend two weeks just painting the inside of the cabinets.

唯一的规则是，工程师可以自行选择要做的工作。

The only rule was engineers got to pick what they worked on.

我们从产品管理、设计和客户支持的角度为他们提供支持。

We we supported them from a PM and design and and customer support perspective.

我们提供了大量想法，让工程师们自行选择要做的任务。

We gave them tons of ideas that engineers could pick what they worked on.

唯一的规则是你必须交付成果。

The only rule was that you had to ship something.

你必须交付对用户有帮助的东西。

You had to ship something that was good for users.

我们所做的，你可以称之为一次Bug集中修复活动。

And what we did is, you know, you could call this a bug bash.

你可以说，好吧。

You could say, okay.

你必须修复这些问题，这些产品中的粗糙之处和遗漏，但我们把它搞成了一个大事件。

You gotta fix these, you know, these these rough edges, these these misses in the product, but we made it a huge deal.

我们让它变得非常激动人心和有趣，还举办了一场盛大的、有趣的评审比赛，我们的高管也参与其中。

We made it really exciting and fun, and we had a big really fun judging competition that our executives took part of.

我们重新找回了之前一度失去的那部分企业文化。

And we really brought back that part of our culture that we had lost out on a bit.

这体现了我们的高管认为的我们的独特之处，以及我们如何在市场中、在用户面前展现自己，通过让产品显得特别来扩大用户群。

And it spoke to what our executives believed was a differentiation for us and how we were going to show up in the market, show up to our users, grow our user base by making it feel special.

我们能够说，这一周，这个冲刺周期，我们发布了65项改进。

And we were able to say, oh, we shipped 65 improvements this week, this this sprint.

这确实与他们从公司层面希望实现的目标高度一致。

And and that felt really, really aligned with what they were trying to accomplish from a company perspective as well.

好的。

Okay.

所以，到目前为止，总结一下这些策略：一是将你的提案与对方的激励目标对齐。

So to summarize the kind of tactics so far, one is align your pitch with the person you're trying to pitch is incentives.

我不确定这句话的语法是否正确，但他们真正追求的是什么？

I don't know if the grammar on that sentence works, but what are they trying?

他们的成功标准是什么？

What does success look like for them?

把你所提案的内容与他们的成功目标联系起来。

Connect the thing you're pitching them with that success.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，在产品提案中，让双方的激励目标保持一致确实非常重要。

I think that aligning your incentives is, yes, really, really important in a product pitch.

如果你在考虑一个产品提案，它如何与公司目标相连接？

If you're thinking about a product pitch, how does it connect to the company goals?

你是否在努力提升转化率？

Are you trying to improve conversion rates?

你是否在努力拓展企业客户？

Are you trying to grow enterprise customers?

你是否在努力塑造品牌形象？

Are you trying to be perceived in brand?

你是否在努力进入某个新领域？

Are you trying to break into some new category?

当然。

Of course.

你必须就新的推销方式达成一致。

You have to align on a new pitch.

我认为反过来想的问题是：如何利用这种激励结构来指导日常的产品路线图，而不仅仅是产生全新的产品创意或推销方案，而是真正地将这种激励结构融入整个团队和你的思维过程中。

I think the inverse of this is how do you use that incentive structure to also inform regular road map, not, you know, just net new product ideas or net new pitches, but you're actually imbuing your entire team and your thought process with that incentive structure.

这是一种深层次的理解。

It's a deep understanding.

OKR是如何变成现在这样的？

How did the OKRs get to be the way they are?

定位陈述是如何变成这样的？

How did the positioning statement get to be that way?

我该如何理解它，并将其深深融入团队文化中，使我们反映出高管团队和领导层所强调的重要事项？

How do I understand that and deeply embed it into my team's culture so that we're reflecting what our exec team, our leadership has said is important.

所以，本质上，这些优先级应该看起来是一个连贯的整体，基于你们在使命中共同同意的某种成果。

So basically, should feel like it's a cohesive set of priorities based on some outcome you all agreed to in the mission.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这其中很大一部分还涉及指标和数据，以及你实际上在衡量自己团队的哪些方面。

And I think a a big part of this is also metrics and data and what you're actually measuring your your own teams on.

我们经常谈论领先指标和滞后指标。

You know, we talk a lot about leading and lagging indicators.

或者在非营利领域，这被称为变革理论。

Or in the nonprofit world, this is called theory of change.

有很多步骤。

There are many steps.

你本人和你的团队可能无法直接推动企业收入或直接提升转化率。

You, yourself, and your individual team may not be able to directly move enterprise revenue or directly move conversion rate.

但你相信，公司也相信，粉刷橱柜内部、提供卓越的客户体验，才是促成客户留存、客户转化和用户满意度的关键。

But you believe, and the company has a belief that painting the inside of the cabinets, having an exceptional customer experience will be the thing that leads to customer retention, customer conversion, user satisfaction.

那么，你如何确保你的指标和你提出的改进措施能够清晰地层层递进，真正对接这些目标，并获得高管的认可？

And so how do you make sure that your metrics and the things that you're proposing to actually shift ladder up really, really clearly to those and that your executive agrees to that.

好的。

Okay.

第二个杠杆是，即使你试图影响他们，也不要一开始就进入争论状态。

And then a second lever is trying to not go into a conversation even though you are trying to influence them.

而是要以开放的心态和学习的姿态去面对。

It's to go into it with an open mind and a learning mindset.

你用了这个说法，‘这真有意思’。

You use this phrase, that's so interesting.

是什么让你相信这一点的？

What led you to believe that?

对。

Right.

我认为这能消除高管的戒备心。

And I think in that is a disarming of the executive.

再说一遍，你该如何激发他们的最佳状态？

You know, again, going back to like, how do you get the best out of them?

你希望他们感到自在。

You want them to feel comfortable.

你希望他们觉得可以对你坦诚相待。

You want them to feel like they can be honest with you.

我觉得人们常常忽略的一点是，他们没有跟进高管所暗示的那些细微线索和意见线索。

I think something I see people miss often is they don't follow the subtle threads that executives lead them, the sort of breadcrumbs of opinions.

在更明确的情况下，你的领导或高管会直接对你说：好吧，我想了解一下关于这件事的简报。

You know, in a in a sort of more clear cut scenario, your leader, your executive will say to you, okay, I'd like a brief on exactly this thing.

以这种方式一般性地写。

Write it generally this way.

我们一周后再回顾一下。

Let's review it in a week.

这是一个非常明确的要求。

That's a very clear cut ask.

但很多时候，要求更加微妙。

But very, very often the asks are more subtle.

我在想，你有没有考虑过？

I wonder if I'm thinking about, have you considered?

我发现，人们往往不接话，而最优秀的人会接。

And what I find is that people don't take the bait and the best people do.

我给你举个例子。

So I'll give you an example.

就在上周，你知道，我们一直在大力推动Webflow内部技能的普及。

Just last week, you know, we've been working a lot on as, skills get democratized across Webflow.

每个人都能做设计。

Everyone can do design.

每个人都能发布代码。

Everyone can ship code.

每个人都能写产品需求文档。

Everyone can write a PRD.

我们如何让人们的行动速度跟上他们的思维和工具所能达到的速度？

How are we enabling people to move as fast as their brains and tools will make them?

我们的首席产品官蕾切尔说，嘿，凯夫，我们的设计负责人。

Rachel, our CPO said, you know, hey, Kev, our head of design.

我们迟早得考虑设计评审的问题。

We're gonna have to think about design reviews at some point.

在一个小时内，凯夫就整理出一个Loom视频，内容是：

And within an hour, Kev had had a loom put together of, hey.

这是一个关于高风险设计变更、低风险设计变更、影响范围、发布流程的框架，以及我们如何让组织中的任何人将设计部署到生产环境。

Here's a framework of high risk design changes, low risk design changes, blast radius, release processes, and how we might allow anyone in the organization to have designs shipped to production.

那是一个帖子。

That was a thread.

她并没有让他这么做。

She didn't ask him to do that.

他本不需要在那个时间框架内跟进，但他意识到，组织的激励机制是持续赋能人们，让每个人都快速前进，并让每个人对自己正在构建的东西保持兴奋。

He didn't need to follow-up in that time frame, but he recognized that the organization's incentives are to keep empowering people, to keep everyone moving fast, to keep everyone, really excited about what they're building as well.

他知道，自己可以迅速介入并快速回应这条反馈。

And he knew that he could slot in and respond to this feedback really, really quickly.

很多时候，我看到人们没有抓住高管给予的这个机会，去真正关注他们提供的细微反馈。

A lot of times, I see people don't take that invitation from the executive to actually engage on the feet, the subtle feedback they're giving.

你知道吗？

You know?

我过去的一个例子中，这种情况就没那么顺利：我们正在参加一次战略评审，可以说是季度战略评审，那已经是第四次我听到塔玛尔说，我想看看关于x的前十大使用场景。

An example from my past where this didn't go as well was, we were in a strategy review, you know, sort of a quarterly strategy review, and it was probably the fourth time I had heard Tamar ask, I wanna see I'm interested in seeing the top 10 use cases on x.

第四次发生时，她变得非常沮丧。

And the fourth time it happened, she got really frustrated.

她说，我们以前已经讨论过很多次了。

She said, we've talked about this so many times before.

为什么我们没有把这个记录下来？

Why don't we have this documented?

我认为这是因为人们没有注意到背后隐藏的深层信号。

And I think it's because people are not picking up on the cue that there's really something deep underneath.

其实他们没有抓住一个重要的反馈或问题。

There's really an important piece of feedback or a question that they're not pulling on.

也许你觉得这并不重要，但你需要更多了解他们为什么认为这很重要。

Maybe you think that that's not an important thing to do, and then you need more information about why they think it's important.

因为如果你置之不理，不回应反馈或要求，那个人就会对你失去信心，觉得你不会跟进他们认为重要的事情。

Because if you just let it go and you don't respond to the feedback or respond to the ask, that person loses faith in you, that you're gonna follow-up on the thing that they believe is important.

而且这听起来也是影响他人的一种绝佳方式：你主动接手，提出我认为我们可以朝这个方向发展，以及对你问题的回答。

And also sounds like a really good way to influence is you take the reins and here's where I think we could go with this and here's the answer to your question.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，如果你在思考如何变得更资深，如何以一种具有领导思维的方式表现自己，你就得像首席产品官一样行事。

I mean, I think if you're thinking about how do you be more senior, how do you show up in a way that is in a leadership mindset, you have to act like a CPO.

你必须带着这种视角出现。

You have to come in with that perspective.

你必须带着解决方案出现。

You have to come in with a solution.

你必须跟进他们所提出的问题，并且要迅速行动。

You have to follow the thread that they've asked about, you have to do it quickly.

这里的一个误区是，人们把这类互动看得太过重要。

One of the missteps here is, you know, people treat these interactions as so high stakes.

有时候确实如此，但你在这类互动中失败的一种方式就是拖延太久才回应反馈。

And sometimes they are, but one of the ways that you you fail at that interaction is you wait too long to to engage on the feedback.

如果你对会议上讨论的后续事项拖延一周才跟进，那位高管早就把这事抛在脑后了。

If you wait a week for the follow-up items that you discussed in the meeting, that exec has moved on.

你就错失了及时回应反馈的机会。

And you've missed your chance to actually respond to the feedback in a in a in a quick manner.

如果你能及时跟进，他们会给你更多的热情、积极性和智慧。

You will get so much more excitement, enthusiasm, brainpower from them if you keep the ball rolling in a in a timely manner.

当然，每个人都很忙。

And obviously, there's like, you know, everyone's so busy.

他们手头已经有太多工作了。

There's already so much work on their plates.

你不可能对高管说的每件事都立刻回应。

You can't just hop on everything an exec says.

还有一种经典建议是，有时高管只是随口一说，但大家都当真了。

There's also this, like, classic advice of sometimes execs just say something and everyone takes it so seriously.

我必须做这件事。

Oh, I have to do that.

但有时候他们只是随口一提。

And sometimes they're just saying it in passing.

所以这大概就是一种平衡：抓住机会，但不必对每件事都较真。

So it's probably all you know, it's a balance of like, take the opportunities, don't have fun every single thing.

是的

Yeah.

在这种情况下，一个很好的问题是：你对这件事有多大的感受？

And a great question to ask in that in that scenario is how strongly do you feel about this?

所以，如果你听到他们说得很强烈，或者你觉得这件事有多紧急？

So if you hear something that they say really strongly, or how urgent do you think that is?

或者，嘿，这是团队现在正在做的事情。

Or, hey, here's what the team is working on now.

你认为这比这些优先事项更重要吗？

Do you think that that trumps these priorities?

如果他们说 yes，那就认真听。

And if they say yes, listen.

去做他们说更重要的事。

Do the thing that they say trumps it.

对吧？

Right?

这并不是要对每一个请求或每一条反馈都立即回应。

It's not about jumping on every request or taking every piece of feedback.

而是要理解其背景，了解他们为什么这么认为，以及他们觉得有多紧急，然后据此做出回应。

It's about contextualizing it and why they believe that, what they think the urgency is, and then actually responding to that.

因此，很多时候，他们会说：我想知道我们能不能做这样一个研究。

So more often than not, they'll say, I wonder if we could do this kind of study.

然后人们就会惊呼：天啊，我们必须马上去开展这项研究。

And people will go and say, oh my gosh, we have to go run that study right now.

我们必须把其他所有事情都搁置一旁。

We have to deprioritize everything else.

但如果你对他们说：嘿，这是个很棒的想法。

But if you say to them, hey, that's a really cool idea.

我喜欢这个点子。

I like that.

你觉得这比我们现在正在做的另外三项研究或三个项目更重要吗？

Do you think that that's more important than these three other studies or three other projects that we're working on now?

他们会说，哦，不。

And they'll say, oh, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这只是一个随机的想法。

That's just like a random idea.

把它放到待办列表里。

Put it on the backlog.

我认为高管们行动得太快了，往往不会主动提供紧迫性的背景信息，所以你必须主动询问。

I think that execs are moving so quickly that they won't always give you that context of urgency, And so you have to ask for it.

作为领导者，我一直在努力提升这方面的能力。

This is something I've been working on getting better at as a leader.

这只是一个想法。

This is just an idea.

这是一个指令。

This is a mandate.

这是我希望看到的事情，但很难做到。

This is something I wanna see, but it's hard.

有时候很难记得去做这件事，因为你的大脑里充满了各种想法。

Sometimes it's hard to remember to do that because your brain is spinning with ideas.

这回到了你关于进入会议中领导者思维的观点。

This comes back to your point about getting into the mind of the person in the meeting, the leader.

他们一整天都在忙个不停。

They're running around all day.

我觉得你称之为频闪。

I think you call that a strobe.

你就只是，啪。

You're just like, bam.

另一个会议，下一个会议，再下一个会议，缺乏大量背景信息，他们只是随口说说。

Another meeting, next meeting, next meeting, next meeting, without a lot of context, and they just say things.

有时候对他们来说更重要，有时候则不然，这又回到了你一开始提到的一个建议：在会议开始时花三十到六十秒，简单给他们一点背景，说明到底要干什么。

And sometimes it's more to them, sometimes not, comes back to one of your tips at the beginning of this chat is spend thirty to sixty seconds at the beginning just giving them a little context on what the heck.

在这三十到六十秒里，你建议怎么做？

What would you recommend in that thirty, sixty seconds?

你希望传达的关键要点有哪些？

What are some kind of key bullet points of what you wanna communicate?

是的。

Yeah.

在三十秒内，我会说：我们今天来讨论X、Y、Z。

In the thirty seconds, I would say, we're here to discuss x y z.

上次我们见面时，停在这里。

Last time we met, we left it off here.

今天会议的目标是Z、Y、X。

The goals of today's meetings are z y x.

我们会这样进行这次会议，然后就闭嘴。

We're going here's how we're gonna run this meeting, and then stop talking.

因为一旦你超过六十秒，你就失去他们了。

Because the moment you go off over sixty seconds, you've lost them.

而且，我认为还有一件非常重要的事情要补充，就是问一句：今天你还希望讨论哪些其他内容？

And and, oh, I think the other really important thing I would add there is to say, was there anything else you were hoping to cover today?

这太棒了。

That was awesome.

我喜欢这个建议。

I love this advice.

我迫不及待想发推文总结一下你刚才分享的这些要点。

I am excited to tweet this out just to summarize these bullet points you just shared.

这太酷了。

That is so cool.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

而且你说得对，如果六十秒一晃而过，你可能会以为自己已经说了六十秒。

And to your point, if sixty seconds flies by, you may think you're talking for sixty seconds.

通常最后会变成五分钟。

It often ends up being five minutes.

所以，建议保持在六十秒以内，就真的试着做到这一点。

So the advice of keep it under sixty seconds, just, like, try to actually do that.

真的试着做到这一点。

Try to actually do that.

我认为这里另一点是，这通常取决于会议的类型以及你实际在做什么。

I think the other thing here is, you know, this often depends on what kind of meeting, what what you're actually doing.

在我们的文化中，我们经常在会议中默读文档或观看Loom视频，然后再回来进行讨论。

You know, in our culture, we do a lot of sort of silent read of docs or watching a Loom in the meeting and then coming back for conversation.

我认为，在回来进行讨论时，一个非常有效的方法是，领导者常常在你的文档上留下上百条评论，然后你会想，天哪，到底哪些是重要的？

I think one of the things that I've seen be really effective in coming back for that conversation is oftentimes a leader will smatter your doc with a 100 comments, and you're like, oh my gosh, what is actually important here?

所以我经常在文档顶部设置一个部分，列出讨论主题。

So what I often do is I have a section at the top to say themes for discussion.

我会突出那些最重要、最具争议、只能当面讨论的内容。

I bubble up some of the biggest and most controversial pieces that can only be discussed live.

还有他们提到的任何感兴趣的问题，比如这件事的时间框架是什么？

And anything they've said that they're just curious about, what's the time frame for this?

为什么需要这样的人员配置？

What's the staffing need for why?

我可以私下回复。

I can answer offline.

我可以后续跟进回答。

I can answer it a follow-up.

我无法再获得的是与这个团队进行讨论的时间。

What I can't get again is the time for discussion with that group.

当他们感到讨论更安全，且更认为你理解了最尖锐或最具争议的问题时，你才能获得真正的洞见和反馈。

And the safer that they feel in that discussion and the more that they think that you've understood what is the most sort of spicy or controversial, that's where you get to the good stuff and you really get their insight and input.

所以我会在顶部加一个部分，列出我阅读评论后提炼出的讨论主题。

So I, you know, put a section at the top and say topics for discussion that I'm reading through the comments.

瑞秋，我说得对吗？

Rachel, was that right?

我大致理解你的想法了吗？

Did I sort of get your thoughts right?

你还有什么要补充的吗？

Anything you would add to this?

然后我们可以聊聊那些真正能帮助我们达成更好结果的精彩内容。

And then we can talk about the the the the really good stuff that gets us to a better outcome.

我的播客嘉宾和我都喜欢谈论工艺、品味、自主性以及产品市场契合度。

My podcast guests and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.

你知道我们不喜欢聊什么吗？

You know what we don't love talking about?

SOC 2。

SOC two.

这就是Vanta的用武之地。

That's where Vanta comes in.

Vanta帮助各种规模的企业快速实现合规，并通过行业领先的AI、自动化和持续监控保持合规状态。

Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring.

无论你是正在应对SOC 2或ISO 27001的初创公司，还是在管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta的信任管理平台都能让这一过程更快、更简单、更具可扩展性。

Whether you're a startup tackling your SOC two or ISO 27,001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.

Vanta还能帮助你将安全问卷的完成速度提升五倍，从而更快赢得更大的交易。

Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.

结果如何？

The result?

根据最近的一项IDC研究，Vanta的客户每年节省了超过50万美元，且生产效率提高了三倍。

According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.

建立信任不是可选的。

Establishing trust isn't optional.

Vanta让这一过程变得自动化。

Vanta makes it automatic.

前往 vanta.com/lending 可享受1000美元优惠。

Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lending.

我们已经讨论过如何将你的激励机制和目标与他们的目标对齐，以开放的心态进入对话，在会议开始时设定背景，并了解他们偏好的沟通方式。

We've talked about aligning your incentives and goals with their goals, going in with an open mind, setting context at the beginning of the meeting, understanding how they like to be presented to.

我们还能学到什么，才能更好地影响高管们？

What else can we learn to become better at influencing execs?

让我先岔开一下话题。

Let me just do a quick tangent.

是的。

Yeah.

当人们听这段内容时，可能会再次想：天啊，我得做这么多无谓的事，我只想好好干活。

As people are listening to this, they may again be like, oh my god, all this BS I have to do, I just wanna do awesome work.

我为什么要花这么多时间学习这些如何说服别人做事情的元技能？

Why am I spending all this time learning all this meta work of how to convince someone of a freaking thing?

我只想打造出色的产品，推动业务和产品的增长，但这真让人沮丧。

I just wanna build awesome products, drive, you know, growth for the business and the product, and this sucks.

我认为，再次提醒大家这一点很重要：事情本来就是这样的。

I think it's, again, important to remind people this is just the way things go.

你需要影响有权力的人，让他们认同你的方法。

You need to influence people in power to agree with your approach.

这就是现实。

That's just the way it is.

你不能只是说，天啊，没人理解我。

You can't just be like, man, no one one understands me.

这真让人沮丧。

It sucks.

这并不是

It's not

我的意思是，这 literally 就是你的工作。

my I mean, it's literally your job.

对吧？

Right?

我认为产品管理长期以来的方式是，你基本上通过工程设计、跨职能资源调配等形式为你的想法争取资金。

They I think the way that product management has has worked for a long time is you basically get funding for your ideas in the form of engineering design, you know, cross functional resourcing.

对吧？

Right?

你应该考虑到风险投资方投入给你的资金，你的CFO、CPO、CEO都期待着回报。

That is you should consider that VC money that's been invested in you, and your CFO, your CPO, your CEO is expecting a return.

那么，你如何证明自己正在打造卓越的产品，从而不负这份投资呢？

And so what is the way that you are showing that you are building great products that that honors that investment in you?

当然，你可以加入一家初创公司，成为唯一的决策者，这也是一种非常合理的工作方式。

And sure, you can go into a startup and be the sole decision maker, and that is a very, very valid way to work.

但如果你与他人合作，让他们对你所做的事情感到兴奋、感兴趣、充满热情并全心投入，一切都会变得更容易。

But if you work with other people, having them excited, interested, passionate, bought in to what you're doing will make everything easier.

这同样是你的职责。

It is also the job.

对吧？

Right?

你还需要做到。

You you also have to.

但我认为，我想让大家记住的是，这才是真正做好产品的方法。

But I think I think the thing I want people to take away is that it's really the way to build well.

你知道，当人们有动力时，当他们感受到使命感，当他们觉得这真的是我所相信的事情时，他们会更加努力地工作。

You know, when people are motivated, when they feel purpose, when they feel like this is really something that I believe in, they work harder.

他们会更支持你。

They support you more.

他们会在你不在的场合谈论你。

They talk about you in rooms that you're not in.

所以，这实际上就是你取得卓越成果的方式。

And so it's it's just actually the way you deliver great results.

我觉得这种定位非常重要。

I I think that's such an important framing.

好的。

Okay.

还有哪些策略或技巧可以帮助领导者获得影响力？

What other tactics, what other techniques work in helping leaders get influenced?

是的。

Yeah.

说得真好。

Way to put it.

获得影响力。

Get get influenced.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

被影响。

Be influenced.

是的。

Yeah.

我们应该弄个印章，结尾盖上‘被影响’。

We should we should have like a stamp, like influenced at the end.

我认为人们常常误解的是他们所受的限制与他们的领导力之间的关系。

So I think one of the things that people misunderstand is the constraints that they are bound by versus their leadership.

你知道吗，高管们并不像你一样受到预算、人力和时间表的限制。

You know, execs are not they don't have the same boundaries of budget and headcount and timeline that you feel.

他们可以要求更多资源。

They can ask for more resourcing.

他们可以发挥创意。

They can get creative.

他们可以推动项目，也可以终止项目。

They can elevate projects, kill projects.

所以，你需要以这样的心态去面对他们：在当前的资源条件下，比如这些工程师、这些工具或这些投入，我能达成什么成果。

And so, you know, you have to come to them with that mindset of, hey, with today's resourcing, with this many engineers or this kind of tooling or this kind of investment, here's what what I can get.

但我考虑的是十倍增长的情况。

But I'm thinking of the 10 x case.

我考虑的是加速实现的场景。

I'm thinking of the accelerated case.

如果你想要这样的结果，并且这与你的激励目标一致，那么这就是我成功所需要的。

And if that's what you want, and if that's aligned with your incentives, here's what I need to be successful.

所以我认为人们会想，好吧，我有我的披萨团队，有四个工程师，你要求的这些是不可能实现的。

And so I think that people think, okay, well, I've got my pizza team, and I've got my four engineers, and what you're asking is not possible.

如果真的不可能，那就告诉他们为什么不可能。

Well, if it's not possible, tell them why not.

回来跟他们说，你提出的这个想法，我非常兴奋。

Come back and say, you know, the thing that you're asking for, I'm super stoked about that.

我需要再增加八个人。

I need eight more people.

我需要你每周两次，每次一小时。

I need you twice a week for an hour.

我需要与市场团队有更紧密的协作，但我不确定该如何实现。

I need much closer alignment with our marketing team, and I'm not sure how to get that.

你必须思考哪些限制因素拖了你的后腿，而这些正是高管们能够帮你解决的。

You have to think about what are the constraints that hold you back that they can actually help you a lot with.

人们常常因为没提出成功所需的东西而错失机会，尤其是当高管的要求看起来不切实际时。

And people miss out on this all the time of not asking for what they need to be successful, especially when the ask from the executive seems unreasonable.

这真是个极好的建议：只要你能让对方足够兴奋，资源和优先级的分配就可能发生巨大变化。

This is such a good advice piece of advice of just if you get them excited enough, things can significantly change in terms of resourcing and prioritization.

你的任务是帮助他们看清这个机会有多么巨大，不仅要满足你的需求，还要让他们惊叹不已。

Like, job is to help them see that how massive an opportunity this is and go and not just give you what you want, but just like, wow.

好的。

Okay.

这是解决这个问题的方法。

Here's the way to unblock this thing.

这是我们接下来可以走的路。

Here's how we can go.

好吧。

Like, okay.

这将是我们新的重大投入。

This is gonna be our new bet big bet.

让我们在这里大干一场。

Let's let's go big here.

是的

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

这将成为我们新的重大投入，而这又回到了与公司目标以及紧迫性保持一致的问题上。

This is gonna be our new big bet, and this comes back to aligning with what the company is trying to to accomplish and also the urgency.

所以，有些事情，如果你再多增加十几个人，或者完全与市场推广对齐，确实能更快地将产品推向市场。

So some things, if you added a dozen more people or perfect alignment with go to market, yeah, you could get them to market faster.

但这对公司目标来说是最重要的吗？

But is that the most important thing for the company goals?

现在就是答案吗？

Is right now the answer?

以这种方式加速，真的会带来更大成效，还是有其他更契合的方案？

Is accelerating this in this way actually gonna do more, or is it something else that's actually more aligned?

因此，我认为仍需牢牢立足于公司目标、高管希望实现的目标，以及用户真正需要成功的关键点，这样才能说：为了加速我们的目标，我们能做的是什么。

And so I think it's still being so rooted in the company goals and what the exec is trying to accomplish and what your users really need to be successful so that you can say, in order to accelerate our goals, here's what we can here's what we can do.

我的意思是，如果你是一家公司的负责人，有人向你提出一个能彻底改变产品轨迹的十倍想法，你一定会兴奋不已。

Like, you know, if if you're in charge of a company, you are you'd be so excited if someone came to you with a 10x idea that's gonna change the trajectory of your product.

这正是每个人都渴望的。

Like, that's what everybody wants.

因此，用这种方式来应对所有这些问题非常有力。

And so that is a really powerful way of approaching all these things.

显然，并不是每个想法都能成为重大突破，也不是每个想法都很好。

Obviously, not every idea is going to be a big idea, not every idea is a great idea.

很多时候，这些想法也需要时间。比如，假设你有一个大想法，但迟迟没有起色，你会对提出这个想法的人设定哪些期望呢？

A lot of times these take time also, maybe speak to that just like, say you have a big idea, and they're like, What what are some expectations to set for people that come up with a big idea that just isn't getting any traction?

这真的取决于你所在的组织类型。

You know, it really depends on what kind of organization you're working in.

如果你在一家小公司工作，这个大想法是否能由你自己或团队独立完成，还是需要大规模的投资。

You know, if you're working in a smaller organization, if that big idea is something that you can build on your own or you can build within versus if you need, you know, a large large scale investment.

我认为，朝着一个全新的重大想法前进，关键在于围绕高管团队进行外部协作。

I think the real thing about building toward a big idea towards something net new, the key is really outside and around the executive.

所以，如果高管是决定是否要在这里投资的关键人物，他们也希望从同事和其他专家那里了解，为什么这个想法真的重要。

So if the executive is the decision maker on whether we're going to invest here, they also want to understand from their peers, from other experts, why this actually matters.

如果你有一个全新的想法想要推向市场，而客户成功团队认为这能显著提升扩张率，或者营销团队认为因为这个想法，注册量会提升十倍。

If you have something net new that you wanna bring to market and customer success thinks it would really accelerate expansion rates, or, you know, the the marketing team thinks that sign ups would be 10 x because of this.

如果你能实现跨职能的协同，这正是许多经验不只适用于产品高管会议的地方——而是当你在影响跨职能的高管和利益相关者，让他们成为你的支持者时，我认为我们现在拥有的工具比以往任何时候都多，产品团队可以构建出V1版本，对吧？

If you have that cross functional alignment, and this is where a lot of these lessons don't just apply if you're going into a a product executive meeting, but that if you're influencing your cross functional execs and your cross functional stakeholders to be advocates on your behalf, I think that, you know, we now have more tools than ever to, product folks build out the V1, right?

先做一个原型，自己开发一个应用，做个粗糙的版本，收集反馈，不断迭代，并以一种能引发广泛认同的方式传播它，直到高管无法拒绝为你提供资金。

Prototype something, build your own app, build a messy version of it, get feedback, iterate, and be socializing that in a way that creates a groundswell of buy in to the point that, you know, the exec can't say no to the funding.

与此相关，我觉得领导者不接受你的提案，最主要的原因是你掌握的信息和他们不一样。

Along those lines, it feels like to me, the biggest reason that a leader doesn't buy into your pitch is you just have different information.

他们看不到你看到的东西。

They don't see what you see.

你也没看到他们看到的东西，对吧？

They don't you don't see what they see, right?

他们还要处理其他一大堆事情，需要做出判断。

They have all this other stuff that they're looking at and trying to decide.

也许可以谈谈那种努力澄清双方信息的技能。

Maybe speak to just like that skill of trying to clarify information on both sides.

我在想April Underwood教过我一个工具。

I'm thinking about a tool April Underwood taught me.

她说她以前和Stewart一起参加产品战略会议时，总是拿着白板笔，试图提炼他的想法。

She said she used to go into product strategy meetings with Stewart and was really trying to extract some of his ideas, but she was always holding the whiteboard marker.

因此，他们之间的对话是这样的：我试图深入理解你对市场、对业务的感知以及你的直觉，但同时我也会把这些内容整理成一种可转化、可执行、符合你可能未曾有过的框架的方式。

And so there was this back and forth between them in the conversation of I'm trying to imbue, I'm trying to understand deeply what you're seeing in the market, what you're feeling in the business, what your instincts are, but I'm also going to package that in a way that is translatable, is actionable, is in a framework that you might not have had in your head.

因此，这是一个绝佳的工具，能将领导者的直觉与你那种不是简单整合他们的思路、而是真正采纳并加速其思路的能力结合起来，从而融合你对世界的认知和他们对世界的认知。

And so that is like a great tool for marrying that leader's instincts with your ability to sort of not synthesize their approach, but really take that approach and and accelerate it for marrying what you know about the world and what they know about the world.

所以，我听到的是，你要主动帮助他们，把自己的视角与他们的世界观对齐。

So it's kinda what I'm hearing is kinda take it upon yourself to help them to kind of align your old view with their world view.

这里又出现了一个问题，就是：帮我理解一下，我之前的问题是什么？

And there's this question coming back, just like, like, help me understand what I don't what was the question you had?

哦，这太有意思了。

Oh, that's so interesting.

是什么让你这么认为的？

What led you to believe that?

这些其实是一些有助于你挖掘他们知道但你不知道的信息的问题。

Like, these are kind of questions that help you extract what you don't know that they know.

是的。

Yes.

我认为关系也存在不同的阶段。

And I think there are also really different phases of a relationship.

刚开始时，你可能没有太多机会和对方面对面交流，也不太了解他们。

There's a phase when you're new, you may not have so much face time with that person, you don't really know them that well.

但我认为，共同度过的时间真的能迅速增进你们之间的信任，让你更自由地交谈，提出困难的问题，获得真实的反馈。

But I think that this is a place where time spent together really just accelerates your trust with them, your ability to speak freely, to ask difficult questions, to get real feedback.

所以，如果你有机会争取更多非正式的、压力较小的相处时间，而不是总在推销想法，而是进行真实的对话，那就尤其重要。

And so especially if you're in a position where you can ask for that time, more casual time, less fraught that you're not always pitching an idea, but you can have real conversations.

这同时也是为日后提出提案打下基础。

That is also the groundwork for the pitch down the line.

我认为人们低估了前期共处时光的价值，因为这些时间会在后续的提案中带来丰厚回报。

I think people devalue that that time upfront spent together because it pays dividends for the later pitch.

是的，我很高兴你提到了这一点。

Yeah, I'm glad you went there.

这正是我原本想说的，就是关于信任、建立和给予对方理由去相信你懂得自己在做什么。

That's exactly where I was gonna actually go is this idea of trust and building and having, you know, giving the person a reason to kind of assume that you know what you're doing.

显然，建立信任很难。

Obviously hard to build trust.

我认为这很重要，因为有时候你拥有最好的想法，但他们就是不买账，因为他们对你过去做过什么一无所知。

And the reason I think this is important is sometimes you have the best idea and they just don't buy it because they just don't know anything about, they don't know what you've been up to.

他们不知道你有多出色、多聪明、多么成功，也许因为你刚加入不久。

They don't know how awesome you are, how smart you are, how successful you've been your whole life and career, maybe because you're new.

有什么建议可以帮助你与领导者建立信任，让这些事情变得更轻松吗？

What are some tips for trying to build trust with the leader so that these things become easier?

我认为在建立信任方面，最重要的是立足于他们的信念。

I think in terms of building trust, it's really important to ground yourself in what they believe.

如果你在推销一个与他们信念截然不同的想法，那就别费劲了。

If you are pitching an idea that is wildly different than something they believe, don't bother.

你很可能还有其他九个不错的点子，这些点子更符合他们已有的信念。

You probably have nine other good ideas that are more aligned with the beliefs that they already have that they already hold.

不如去跟进那些点子。

Follow those instead.

所以，关键在于从一个基本的假设出发进行沟通。

So there's something about just engaging from a baseline assumption.

如果他们对某件事非常坚定，那你也许可以一两次回去问问：你真的这么坚信吗？

If they feel strongly about something, okay, maybe you can come back to them once or twice and say, are you sure you feel strongly about that?

我真的看到这些数据了。

I really see this data.

如果他们说：是的，我非常坚定，那你可能就得放弃了。

And if they say, yeah, I feel really strongly, you probably have to drop it.

但就建立长期信任而言，我认为最重要的做法是认真倾听他们，并落实过去收到的反馈，取得实际成果。

But in terms of building that long term trust, I think the biggest things that do that are really hearing them out and actioning on the feedback that you've gotten in the past, having results.

你知道，在组织中产生影响力、打造优秀产品、快速交付出色成果，并将这些反馈给领导者，告诉他们‘我们和你一起完成了这件事’，这一点怎么强调都不为过。

You know, it cannot be overstated that impact in the organization, building great products, shipping amazing things quickly, feeding that back to the leader to say, hey, we worked with you on this.

我们交付了。

We shipped it.

效果很好。

It went well.

这是成果。

Here's the results.

这能为你积累势能，让你之后能带着更具创新性或更冒险的方案再次回去沟通。

That builds you momentum to be able to go back with the more novel approach or the scarier one.

我想说的另一件事是，我最喜欢——实际上，也是我唯一喜欢的一本商业书籍，叫《改变》。

I think the other thing I would say is one of my favorite well, actually, of the only business books I've ever liked is called Switch.

这本书讲的是变革管理。

It's about change management.

书中大量谈到‘缩小变革规模’，这是一个非常巧妙的理念。

And they talk a lot about shrinking the change, which is this brilliant idea.

如果某件事看起来令人害怕且令人不知所措，你该如何把它缩小成一个可实验的小任务？

If something seems scary and overwhelming, how do you make it so much smaller so that it's an experiment?

这可以是一个为期一周的概念验证。

It's a one week proof of concept.

它应该是一个非常小的行动，能让人克服这样的顾虑：如果我不确定这个项目能否成功，我为什么要投入六个月的时间？

It's something that feels really small that can get people over the hump of, well, I'm not gonna invest in six months for this project if I don't know if it's gonna work.

因此，将变革分解成小步骤是建立动力和信任的关键方式。

So shrinking the change is a huge way to build momentum and trust.

我认为这一点同样适用于我们开发所有产品的过程，尤其是当你在做持续时间超过一个月的项目时。

And I think this applies to the way that we develop all products, especially if you're doing something that lasts longer than a month.

你的里程碑是什么？

What are your milestones?

你以哪些阶段来展示成果和契合度？

What are the chunks at which you're showing outcomes and fit?

而有了我们如今拥有的工具，做到这一点比以往任何时候都更容易。

And this is easier than ever to do with the tools that we have at our disposal.

我们如何展示正在采取一种更加迭代的方法，以便建立这种动力、获得支持并赢得信任，从而去做更大的事情？

How are we showing that we are taking a much more iterative approach so that you can build that momentum, build that buy in, and get that trust to to do the bigger thing?

这是一个非常实用的建议，用来说服别人做某事：本质上就是降低风险，减少投入，以证明这是成功的。

That's an awesome, very tactical piece of advice here to convince someone to do something is just reduce the risk essentially, reduce the investment to help build trust in, okay, this is showing success.

因为显然，选择一个只需两周时间、且如果失败影响也很小的项目，要容易得多。

Because obviously it's much easier to bite off on something that's gonna take two weeks or have very low risk and impact if it's not a good idea.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这完全正确。

I think that's absolutely right.

我认为他们最害怕的风险类型是什么，对吧？

And I think what is the type of risk that they are most afraid of too, right?

是浪费时间吗？

Is it wasting time?

是上市时间吗？

Is it time to market?

是因为他们根本不认为这个想法会对客户有效吗？

Is it that they don't actually think this is gonna work with customers?

所以，如果你能开始并应该问这个问题：你最害怕哪些结果？

So if you can start to and you can and should ask this, what are the outcomes you're most afraid of?

对吧？

Right?

在这个实验中，对你来说，失败的状态会是什么？

What would a failure state be for you in in this experiment?

你知道，有一种叫做‘红队演练’的概念，原本是军事战术，现在也被应用到商业中。

You know, there's there's a concept of red teaming, which is originally a military tactic and and now being applied to businesses.

你如何以局外人的视角来看待你的想法，而不是只沉迷于自己的思维和概念？

How do you take an outsider's perspective to your idea and not just be so obsessed with your own thinking, with your own concept?

因为我们常常陷入思维定式，尤其是我发现，原型设计时这种情况更常见。

Because so often we get wrapped around the axle, especially I I actually find this happens even more with prototyping.

你做出一个原型，然后就觉得：哦，它看起来真漂亮。

You build a prototype and you're like, oh, it looks so beautiful.

我以前根本不可能做出那个东西。

I would have never been able to build that before.

这其实根本不是一个好主意，但你会沉迷其中，不愿意接受它可能失败的事实。

It's actually, like, not a very good idea, but, but you get obsessed with it and you're unwilling to accept that it could fail.

我认为建立信任最重要的一件事就是终止项目、降低优先级。

I think one of the biggest things you can do to build trust is kill things, deprioritize things.

这是一种非常高级的思维方式，对吧？

That is a very, very senior way of thinking, right?

这表明你的利益与高管一致——他们关心的是公司整体成果和用户利益，而不仅仅是你个人的得失。

And it shows that you have the same aligned incentives as the executive who's thinking about the good of the company outcome, the user outcome, and not just your own.

这真是个绝佳的观点，因为每个人都只想获取更多资源、更多投资，增加更多功能，好像这样就说明一切顺利。

That is such a good one because everyone's always just trying to acquire more resources, more investment, just like more features and showing that, okay.

这是一个糟糕的主意。

This is a terrible idea.

我知道我花了好几个月在这上面，但现在我们应该放弃它，因为它行不通。

I know I spent, like, months on this, but now we should kill this because it's not working.

对。

Right.

它没效果。

It's not working.

而且我来告诉你我怎么知道它没效果。

And and here's how I'm gonna know that's not working.

这就是我会回来找你做决定的时候。

Here's when I'm gonna come back to you with a decision.

对吧？

Right?

所以有时候我们不知道，很多时候我们并不知道结果，尤其是在原生AI产品上。

So sometimes we don't know that a lot of times we don't know the outcome, especially with AI native products.

如果我们能说，我们要测试这个，这是判断它是否有效的标准，我们会在X日期回来向你汇报。

And if we can say, we're going to test this, here's how we're going to know it's working, we'll come back to you on X date.

我认为真正让人失控的一件事，是对确定性的渴望。

I think one thing that really spirals people out of control is is a desire for certainty.

你知道，作为人类，我们很多人都有强烈的确定性需求。

You know, as human beings, many of us have have a huge desire for certainty.

如今，这种需求更不可能实现了。

Now more than ever, that is not possible.

因此，我学到的一个技巧，尤其是在与那些对确定性要求极高的工程师打交道时，就是说：我现在不知道答案。

And so one trick that I learned, especially working with engineers who often have a very, very high desire for certainty is to say, I don't know the answer right now.

我不知道这个是否会成功。

I don't know if this is gonna be successful.

我会在X日期再和你跟进。

I'm going to check-in with you on x date.

到那时，我们会回来继续讨论。

That's when we're gonna come back and have another conversation.

至少，下一个跟进点是有明确预期的。

And so at least there's certainty about the next check-in point.

这可以成为缓解特定项目或想法所引发的恐惧和风险的有力工具。

And that can be a really powerful tool for sort of deescalating the fears and risks around a given initiative or idea.

好的。

Okay.

在我们深入讨论人工智能的影响和其他相关内容之前，人们在提升影响力这一技能时，还有哪些常见的错误？或者有没有其他非常有效的策略可以增强你影响领导层的能力？

Before we get into AI's impact and all this stuff, are there any other common mistakes people make when they are trying to get better at the skill of influence, or just any other really powerful tactics for increasing your ability to influence leaders?

人们常常忽略的是，高管们所具备的极其广泛的背景，这不仅来自他们的经验，还包括他们在日常生活中所听到的各种信息。

Something people miss is the extremely broad context that execs bring to bear from not only their experiences, but the things that they are hearing in their day to day life.

他们对其他产品团队正在做什么的了解，比你想象的要更深。

They understand what other product teams are working on better than you.

他们了解高层管理层面的讨论内容。

They understand the conversation at the e staff level.

他们参加过高管圆桌会议，一直在倾听各种声音。

They've been to executive roundtables and they're hearing.

而你的职责之一，就是从中提炼出这些洞察和信息，并将其应用到你的想法中。

And one of your jobs is to extract that insight and information and apply it to your ideas.

他们希望感受到你真正在意，尊重这些信息，并能将其融入自己的思考中。

And they want to feel like you care, like you respect that, like you can apply it to your own thinking.