设计流程已死。以下是正在取代它的新方式。| Jenny Wen（Claude设计主管）

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以作为设计师，在这个行业中，工艺、卓越的体验、品质和信任是工作中的核心部分，有助于在产品中建立这些要素，因为理论上这能带来非常成功的产品和公司。

So then as a designer, in this profession, craft and great experience and quality and trust are such a core part of the job to help instill that in the products because that, in theory, leads to really successful products and companies.

当你的产品每天发布上千次，你无法跟上所有变化，而且没有设计师参与时，你该如何维持工艺、品质和信任呢？

How do you just think about maintaining craft quality trust as your products are just shipping a thousand times a day, and you're not able to stay on top of them and there's no designer involved?

并不是没有设计师参与。

It's not that there's no designer involved.

更准确地说，是一个设计师要处理的任务太多了。

It's more just like there's it's almost that there's too much for one designer to handle.

但我觉得在这方面，我会思考这些功能或产品在采用周期中的位置，比如是处于早期预览阶段还是成熟阶段。

But I think with this, I think about where the features or products are that like where they are sort of in the cycle of adoption versus like kind of early preview.

例如，我们有时会推出一些产品，并说明：‘这是研究性预览版。’

So for example, like we sometimes will launch things and we will say, hey, this is a research preview.

这还处于早期阶段。

It's it's early.

它会有很多缺陷，我们也明确做了很多说明。

It's gonna have a bunch of these flaws and and we caveat that a bunch.

我认为Quad CoWork就是一个很好的例子，我们将其标注为研究预览版并发布出去，因为我们知道，嘿，这就像我们的模型一样，这是它最差的状态。

I think quad co work is actually a good example of this where we labeled it a research preview and we put it out there knowing that, hey, this is like similar to our models, you know, this is the worst it's ever gonna be.

但我们还是决定发布它，因为我们内部已经多次尝试过。

But we're gonna put it out there because we believe, you know, internally, we've tried it a bunch.

这里有一些非常强大的东西，会有人从中受益。

And there's something really powerful here that some people will benefit from.

它可能目前还不容易使用。

It might not yet be the easiest to work with.

它可能质量还不够高。

It might not be the highest quality.

它可能存在一些问题，但我们还是决定发布，因为我们相信收益大于弊端。

It might have some issues with it, but we're gonna put it out there because we believe the benefits outweigh the cons.

我认为这样做是可以接受的，尤其是当产品本身已经具备相当大的价值，值得发布出去时。

I think that is like okay to do, especially when there is something really valuable with the product already and it's worth putting it out there.

但我认为，你必须向用户承诺的是：我们会发布它，但我们会持续迭代。

But I think the promise you sort of have to make your users is is like, hey, we're we're gonna put it out there, but we're gonna we're gonna iterate.

我们会听取你们的反馈，不断改进，让它变得更好。

We're gonna take your feedback and we're gonna iterate and we're gonna make it better.

你必须做出这样的承诺。

And you have to sort of commit that.

你必须向世界展示这一点。

You have to show that to the world.

你必须回应用户的反馈，并展示你正在持续发布和改进产品。

You have to respond to people's feedback and you have to show that you are continuously shipping and improving it.

因为我认为，真正损害人们对质量和提前发布信任的方式，就是提前发布后却再无任何进展。

Because I think the way that you really lose trust around quality and releasing something early is if you release it early and then nothing ever happens.

这才是会损害品牌声誉的事情。

That that is what something that degrades a brand.

但每当你提前发布某些东西时，其实是可以做到这一点的，同时还能保持公司品牌的声誉。

But whenever you put something out early, like, it's it's possible to do that and, like, maintain the brand of of your company.

我认为我们在这方面做得相当不错。

And I think I think that's something that we've been doing pretty well.

如果有人在听，能从中吸取的一点就是，是的。

And and I think if there's anything anyone's listening to the can if anyone's listening can take away from it is like, yeah.

我们确实应该这么做。

We're to do that.

作为设计师，我觉得这其实非常有趣，因为你发布之后能立即获得反馈，学到东西，并知道下一步该做什么。

And and I think that is actually really fun for me as a designer because you put something out there and you actually learn and you get feedback about it immediately and you know what to do next.

我听到你把这种做法描述为通过速度建立信任。

The way I've heard you describe this is building trust through speed.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

It's yeah.

这是通过速度建立信任，但同时也让使用者感受到他们被倾听，我们根据他们的使用需求和反馈来改进产品，而且他们的反馈确实被重视和采纳。

It's building trust through speed, but also just like making people feel like they've been heard and that we're fixing things based on what they're trying to use it for, and their feedback is actually appreciated and used.

是的。

Yeah.

当实验室发布新功能时，这一点非常明显，你们在这方面做得非常好。

It's clear when when the labs launch stuff, and y'all are very good at this.

团队里的每个人都积极在推特上回应推文和评论，然后迅速发布更新，嘿，我们已经处理好了。

Everyone on the team is tweeting and just, like, responding to tweets and comments and and then shipping, hey.

我们昨天就修复了这个问题，事情就是这样在推进。

We fixed this yesterday, and this is happening.

因此，大家能清晰地感受到：这就是今天发生的事，我们知道这有问题，我们会立即修复。

So there's a clear sense of this is just today, and we know this is broken, and we will fix it.

而且由于Cloud Code能够快速编码，修复速度也非常快。

And and then because Cloud Code can code very quickly, the fixes come very fast.

好的。

Okay.

所以另一个大家经常问、我也在这个播客里经常提出的大问题是：哪些技能会变得有价值。

So another big question that people are asking that I ask a lot on this podcast is around just like what skills become valuable.

换一种方式思考，莱克斯最近是这么说的：随着人工智能越来越智能，人类的思维将在哪里继续发挥价值？

And like another way I've been thinking about it, Lex put it this way recently, is where will human brains continue to be valuable as AI gets smarter?

我们已经经历了从代码片段自动补全，到如今100%的代码由AI编写——这简直令人难以置信——现在AI开始审查自己的代码了；最近博里斯在播客中提到，Cloud Code正在帮助他提出想法并决定该构建什么，这真是让人惊叹，整个产品工作流程和开发流程正缓慢地被AI吞噬。那么问题来了：在我们拥有超级智能之前，人类的思维究竟还在哪些方面有用？你认为AI会变得非常非常擅长品味、判断和设计吗？

So we've gone through this progression of, tab completing elements of code to a 100% of code is written by AI now, like it's crazy, to now AI is reviewing its own code, Boris on the podcast recently was saying Cloud Code is now helping him come up with ideas and decide what to build, which is like, okay, wow, look at that, look at it go, the whole product workflows, the product development process slowly getting eaten up by AI, so the question is just like where will human brains still be useful at least until we have super intelligence, Do you think like a do you think AI is gonna get very, very good at taste, judgment, design?

我认为AI在品味、判断和设计方面会变得更好。

I think it will get better at taste and judgment and design.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们可能对这一点过于执着了，总认为设计师或某个人永远知道该发布什么、哪个版本才是最好的。

Like, I I think we we might be holding on to that a little bit too much and saying like, oh yeah, like, you know, a a designer or somebody will always know the the best thing to ship or the best version of this.

但我确实认为AI的审美能力会不断提升。

And I but I I do think AI will like AI sense of taste will get better.

归根结底，总得有人决定到底要构建什么，以及什么才是真正重要的。

At the end of day, someone has to decide like what is actually going to get built and and what actually matters.

当我听到人们说，AI会为我们自动构建所有软件时。

And and when I think about people saying like, oh, you know, like AI is just gonna build this software for us.

实际上，构建软件最难的部分往往不是写代码本身，你明白吗？

A lot of the hard parts of building software actually like not building it, you know?

如果你回想一下工作中最艰难的时刻，伦尼，很可能就是你和别人在争论：这个功能该包含什么，不该包含什么。

If you think about the hardest times that you've had at work, Lenny, it's probably things like, oh, you and some other person like disagreeing about, like, what should go into this feature or what shouldn't go into this feature.

这些情况依然让人觉得，是的，AI可以参与意见，但它无法真正解决你和他人之间的分歧。

And those things still feel like, yes, AI can weigh in, but it can't necessarily solve this dispute between you and somebody else.

因此，决定我们构建的东西究竟包含什么，这背后有一种东西，我想这在某种程度上是品味，但可能不是我们通常所理解的审美品味之类的东西。

And so there is something about, like, deciding what actually goes into the things we build, which I guess is taste in some way, but maybe not taste in, like, the way we think about, like, aesthetic taste or or whatnot.

这更像是一种关于下一步该做什么的判断。

There's some sort of, it's, like, judgment around what to do next.

看着AI如此迅速地接管了编码工作，我觉得一年前，甚至两年前，大多数人还会说：我不这么认为。

Just watching how quickly AI had took over coding, which I think a year ago, definitely two years ago, most people are like, I don't think so.

我不认为AI会变得如此出色，以至于世界上最好的工程师会如此信任它。

I don't think AI will get this good and that the best engineers in the world trust it so much.

他们甚至都不再查看代码了。

They're not even looking at the code anymore.

这让我重新审视了我之前所有的假设，比如：AI永远无法像优秀的产品经理或设计师那样，判断什么是优秀的、决定该构建什么。

Like, that's where we got it just made me reevaluate all these assumptions I've had about, okay, AI will never be as good as really good PMs, designers at judging what is great and deciding what to build.

但我现在开始在思考了。

But I'm just, like, starting to think.

我认为它终将做到这一点。

I think it will get there.

就像你分享的那个例子，它可以帮助那两个正在做决定的人。

Like, even in the example you shared, like, it could give these two people trying to make a decision.

这是你做决定所需的所有数据，以及为什么这是正确的答案。

Here's all of the data you need to make a decision, and here's why this is the right answer.

然后只需按下确认，按1，我就会去构建它。

And just press yes, press 1, and I'll go ahead and build it.

就会是这样。

Just gonna be yeah.

所以我觉得我们就是这样。

So I think we're just yeah.

你说得对，我认为我们低估了它在这些方面会变得多么出色。

To your point, I think we undervalue just how good it'll get at this stuff.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的感觉是它会变得更好，但你也觉得我们仍然需要出色的设计师、优秀的产品经理来帮助做这些决策，当然还有工程师。

So your sense is it'll get better, but your sense is we'll still need awesome designers to be involved, awesome PMs to help make these decisions, engineers, of course.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得还是得有人来决定，比如，我们想打造这样的产品。

I think someone will still have to decide like, oh, we wanna build this kind of product.

或者说，基于AI向我们呈现的内容，仍然需要有人对决策负责。

Or like, given what the AI is presenting us, like, someone still needs to be accountable for the decision.

就像尽管Claude今天能为你写出所有代码，但最终还是工程师要负责这些代码是否真的能运行。

You know, the same way that like even though Claude can write all this code for you today, it is still an engineer who's accountable for like does that code actually work?

这个代码在产品中真的合理吗？

Does this actually make sense in that product?

所以我认为，这种决策和判断层面仍然存在，也许有一天我们不再需要做这些，但目前责任依然在我们身上。

So I think there's that, like, decision making slash judgment layer, which feels like maybe one day we won't have to do that, but it's, it still falls on us.

是的。

Yeah.

这说不通。

It doesn't make sense.

这让我想到放射科的例子，人们总认为AI会接管放射科，告诉你发生了什么。

It makes me think about the radiology example where there's always the sense that AI is gonna take over that field of radiology and tell you what is going on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但人类的主要作用是批准决策，因为如果出错，总得有人承担责任，这可不是什么好工作，但和写代码完全是两码事。

But, like, the human is mostly useful for signing off on the decision because someone needs to be liable if they're wrong, which isn't the best job in the But but that's a different game as hell versus code.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

AI与设计领域另一个持续存在的问题是，聊天机器人和终端界面似乎成了AI的默认交互方式，但我认为没人预料到这会成为AI的持久用户界面。

Another ongoing question in AI and design is just like it feels like chatbots and terminals are just like like, I don't think anyone expected this to be the lasting user interface to AI.

比如聊天机器人。

Like, chatbots.

好的。

Okay.

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

这只不过是旅程中的一个临时停顿，但现在它甚至更进一步，变成了纯粹的终端。

This is just like a temporary stop along the journey, but now it's, like, got even further and just terminals.

你对这个有什么想法吗？我不知道。

Do you have thoughts on just I don't know.

你觉得未来我们与AI交互的方式还会有下一步吗？还是说聊天机器人和终端就是我们最终的形态？

Where like, do you think there will be a next step of how we interface with AI, or do you think chatbots and terminals are are mostly where we end up?

很可能会是两者的结合。

There will likely be a combination of both.

比如，既有你可以点击、交互的UI和界面，也有更贴近触觉体验的交互方式。

Like, both UIs and interfaces that you are interacting with, clicking with, and and and that feel like more tactile.

我们已经在Claude这样的聊天机器人中看到并尝试了这种趋势。

We are already seeing this and playing with this within Claude like the chat bot.

我们最近推出了一系列小工具，让Claude能够主动向你提问，并以互动方式展示天气、股票等信息。

So we recently released a bunch of these widgets that let Claude sort of elicit and ask you questions and also show you, you know, things like the weather and stocks and whatnot in interactive ways.

我认为这些功能收到了很好的反馈，因为人们仍然喜欢看到并触摸、点击UI，这比打字与Claude交流高效得多。

And I think those have had a really good reception because people still like to see UIs and touch them and and click them and they are much more efficient than, you know, typing something to to Clyde.

但与此同时，当我们真正深入这种聊天机器人模式时，我认为这为我们带来了前所未有的灵活性，而这种灵活性是那些固定不变的用户界面所无法提供的。

But at the same time when we Lee really leaned into this like chatbot paradigm, like, I think that just gave us this whole world of flexibility that we didn't get with these sort of like baked in UIs.

所以我的看法是，我认为聊天机器人永远不会消失，因为它开启了一种全新的方式，让我们能够以无限多种方式与模型互动，与计算机对话，而这些方式以前是不存在的。

So my read here is like, I don't think Chad is ever going away because this opened up this like new way of like infinite ways to to work with the model and to sort of like talk to the computer that we just didn't have before.

但我认为，对于非常具体的事情，仍然通过这种用户界面来操作是最直接的方式。

But I think that it will still be most direct for very specific things to exist in this UI.

我认为接下来很可能会发生的是，这些用户界面将越来越多地由模型自动生成，而不是由我们手动为每个实例进行编码。

And I think that will probably happen here is that a lot of those UIs will be generated more and more often by the models as opposed to something that we're like hand coding each instance.

但我觉得是的。

But I think we yeah.

我们正处在一个阶段，我认为聊天，甚至与终端对话的方式都不会消失。

We're in this space where I don't I don't think chat and and and and maybe even like talking to the terminal is is gonna go away.

有趣的是，像OpenClaw、Clawd、MallClawd，所有这些名字。

It's interesting that like with OpenClaw, Clawd, MallClawd, all the names.

其中一项重大创新是，可以通过WhatsApp、Telegram和短信等方式与它聊天。

The innovation one of the big innovations is like another way to chat with it through WhatsApp and telegram and SMS.

就像另一种形式的聊天机器人，但这确实是一个巨大的突破。

Just like another form of chatbot, but that just like that was a big unlock.

哦，我可以直接通过WhatsApp和它聊天。

Oh, I could just chat with it through WhatsApp.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，像聊天和与人交谈这样的行为，仍然是我们人类在做的事情。

And it's like you like chatting and talking to someone is still like, you know, we as humans are doing it.

所以这是一种让我们以非常丰富的方式进行互动的方式，而现在我们又多了一种与计算机互动的媒介。

And so and it's a way for us to interact in a really rich way, and now we just have this other medium to, like, interact with a computer, basically.

对。

Yeah.

凯文·韦尔，他在另一家人工智能实验室工作，我就不点名了，他在播客中提出了一个很好的观点：交谈是一种非常美妙的方式，可以应对各种层次的智能。

So Kevin Weil, who works at another AI lab, I won't mention, he had this great point on the podcast that talking is such a beautiful way to handle every level of intelligence.

我们可以和非常聪明的人，也可以和不太聪明的人交谈，而这一切都是通过交谈实现的。

We can talk to people that are very, very smart and not so smart, and it's talking.

而且它在整个范围内都能很好地扩展。

And it scales so well across the spectrum.

我们可以和智商200、300的人聊天，对话依然有效。

We can talk to people at 200, IQ, 300, like it's talking still works.

因此，这是一种非常美妙的方式，能够应对模型智能持续增长的过程。

So that's why it's been this beautiful way to deal with the growing intelligence of models as it continues to work.

是的。

Yeah.

这完全说得通。

That totally makes sense.

没错。

Yep.

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好的。

Okay.

我想再回到管理和个人贡献者这个话题。

I wanna come back to this whole idea of management and IC.

所以，你实际上在很多方面把自己重新回到了个人贡献者的角色。

So so you've spent you've kind of put yourself back into the IC role in a lot of ways.

谈谈这个，以及你是否认为这是设计管理者必须做的事情。

Talk about that and if you think that's just like a thing design managers need to be doing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

它会变成这样。

It takes on this.

是的。

Yeah.

所以去年在Anthropic，我最初是以个体贡献者（IC）的身份加入的。

So this past year at Anthropic, I joined as an IC at first.

然后我管理了一个团队几个月，当时组织结构恰好需要这样安排。

And then I managed a team for a few months in in like an org structure that sort of needed it.

现在我又回到了全职做个体贡献者的工作。

And now I'm actually back to doing full time IC work.

我之所以以IC的身份加入Anthropic，是因为我对这里作为IC所能做的工作感到非常兴奋。

And I joined Anthropic as an IC because I was just really excited about the kind of work that there was to be done as an IC here.

但同时也因为我感觉，我想更贴近实际工作，而且我认为，在我进一步升入管理层之前，现在是做这件事的绝佳时机。

But also because I was feeling like, you know, I I I sort of wanna be closer to work, and I I think this feels like a really important time to do it before I, like, ascend the corporate ranks.

你知道的吗？

You know?

而且我一直在思考和怀疑，中层管理这个角色，未来真的安全吗？

And and I was having these, like, questions and doubts about, like, is is middle management, like, is that safe in the future?

我们的工作方式真的会持续下去吗？这个职位在未来还会存在吗？还是说我应该尝试别的方向，真正地深入一线？

Like, it's are are is is is the way that we're working actually is this going to be a job that persists into the future, or or should I, you know, try something else and, like, get my hands dirty kind of thing?

但公平地说，我其实很喜欢这两面。

And and to be totally fair, like, I actually love both sides of the coin.

我喜欢管理团队。

Like, I loved I loved managing people.

我喜欢组建团队，处在那个层级，但我也非常热爱个人贡献者的工作。

I love, like, setting up teams and and being at that level, but I also just really love IC work.

当我做管理时，其实有点勉强，我当时想，好吧。

Like, I was sort of like a reluctant manager when I did it, and I was like, okay.

我来做吧。

I'll do it.

但我其实很均衡地喜欢这两面。

So I love both sides of these coin the coin, like, pretty equally.

但我觉得，过去这一年作为个人贡献者，让我学到了很多技能，这些技能如果我这一年只做管理，可能根本不会获得。

But I think actually what's being an IC across this past year has taught me is that it actually just like gave me a lot of skills that I I don't think I would have gained if I was just managing throughout this year.

比如我提到的设计流程，过去一年发生了巨大变化，我觉得我掌握了很多硬技能，这些技能如果只是管理团队，我可能根本没有时间去学习。

Like the design like I mentioned, the design process has changed so so much in this past year, and I feel like I've just picked up so many hard skills that I wouldn't have necessarily had the time to do if I was just managing a team.

所以这实际上是我获得的最好的东西。

So that's actually the best thing that's afforded me.

而且我认为，如果我再次管理一个团队，这会让我更好地理解设计流程的变化，并产生同理心。

And I think at any point, if I'm, like, managing a team again, I think it will give me the empathy and understanding of how the design process has changed.

我认为这在当下真的非常重要，因为团队的工作方式已经大不相同了。

And I think that's actually a really important thing right now because, yeah, the teams are working so differently.

如果你没有以这种方式工作，或者没有持续测试所有工具、尝试新东西，就很难真正产生同理心。

I think it's actually pretty hard to empathize if you are not working in that way or you're not always testing all the tools and trying stuff.

但确实，现在当一名设计师是个很有趣的时期。

But, yeah, like it's it's an interesting time to be designer.

如果我没有在这个环境中工作过，我不确定自己是否能完全理解，或者知道该怎么做、如何指导我的团队。

And if I had not worked in this environment, I don't know if I would have totally understood it or like knew what to do or how to guide my teams.

所以，这一年真正赋予我的就是这些。

So that that's sort of what this year really gave me.

你之前是Figma的设计总监，对吧？

And so you were previously a director of design at Figma.

对吧？

Right?

你的团队有多大？

How big was your team?

你的组织规模有多大？

Like, how large was your org?

以便让大家有个参考。

Just to give people a reference.

最多的时候，我大概有十二到十五名设计师，还有一些经理。

At the max, I probably had, I think, twelve, fifteen designers or so, and and I had a few managers as well.

不错。

Cool.

然后你回到了RC。

Then you went back to RC.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你一直觉得中层管理可能不会长久。

So you've had the sense that middle management might not last.

你现在的看法是什么？

What's your current feeling?

你认为设计管理这种角色会长期存在吗，还是说每个人都会变成个人贡献者？

Do you think manage design management is a thing that persists long term, or do you think everyone turns into IC?

我认为只要有一个团队，有人来管理这个团队是有帮助的。

I think as long as there is a team of people, it it helps to have somebody who is managing a team.

我觉得管理者确实有真正的价值。

Like, I think there is there's a real value in managers.

这取决于管理者的角色形态以及他们实际做的事情。

It depends kind of like what the shape of the manager is and what they actually do.

但在我看来，如今一个有帮助的管理者并不是单纯的人事管理，比如只是帮你安排工作、支持你的职业发展、进行一对一沟通、确保你工作时感觉良好。

But the way I think about, like, of what a helpful manager is these days is somebody who is not just like I think pure people management, like, oh, like, just somebody to sort of set you up, help you in your career, have one on ones, make sure you're feeling, like, good at work.

我觉得这种做法现在没那么常见了。

I think that that is kind of not a thing as much anymore.

但我认为，能够同时为团队指明方向并承担部分人员管理职责的人，才是未来管理的形态，至少目前是这样。

But I think somebody who can really function as like giving the team direction as well as doing some of the people management stuff, like that tied together, I think is the future of what managing looks like, at least for now.

比如那些既能深入参与团队工作、提供方向指导，又能营造环境让团队成员发挥最佳水平的人。

Like somebody who can really engage with the team in terms of, like, the work and giving direction there, as well as, like, creating the environment for them to do their best work.

那你长远来看会重回管理岗位吗？

And do you see yourself going back into management long term?

我可能会回去。

I probably will.

我可能会回去。

I probably will.

我觉得我真的很喜欢帮助团队打造出最好的产品。

Like, I I think I I really just love, you know, helping a team, like, build the best product possible.

我的座右铭就是，不管怎样都要做到位。

And my my motto there is, like, whatever it takes, you know.

如果团队需要有人来指明方向、组建团队之类的，那我可以胜任。

If it's somebody that if if if the team needs somebody to give the team direction and, like, set up the team and whatnot, that could be me.

如果团队只是需要有人来执行任务，我也可以。

If the team just, like, needs somebody to execute on it, that could be me as well.

所以我听到的给设计师、尤其是管理者的建议是，你几乎需要重新回到个体贡献者角色，才能真正理解正在发生什么以及变化有多大，从而成为一名更好的管理者？

So the advice I'm hearing for people in design that are especially managers is you almost need to move back into IC in order to truly understand what is happening and how much it's changing so that you can be a better manager?

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

我认为，至少从我见过的情况来看，在工程领域，当他们招聘工程经理，甚至有时是总监时，通常会让经理们先轮岗几个月，亲自接手一些任务，真正了解技术是如何运作的，然后再成为全职管理者。

And I think traditionally, at least what I've seen, a lot of, like, the engineering disciplines, like, when they hire EMs or even sometimes, like, directors there, they actually make the EMs, like, take a rotation for a few months and and pick up a few tasks and really understand how the technology works before they become a full time manager.

我认为设计领域也需要做类似的事情，因为过去设计更偏向于人员管理。

And I think design probably needs to do something similar too, where I think in the past, design has been much more like people management oriented.

当你重新回到个体贡献者设计师角色时，发现自己最生疏的是什么？

What did you find yourself most rusty in when you went back to IC Designer?

其实是做评审，你知道的，还有就是被批评。

Actually, like doing crits, you know, and just Getting criticized.

是的

Yeah.

被批评

Getting criticized.

你就会想，哦，对啊

You're like, oh, yeah.

获得批评意见确实很难，要接受并经常听到这些反馈，因为作为设计师，这正是你必须做的事。

Like, it is hard to get it is hard to get critical feedback and to hear it and to hear on such a regular basis because that's the thing you have to do as a designer.

向团队展示你的作品，这本身就是一个非常脆弱的过程。

It's like, it's a pretty vulnerable exercise to share work and present it with your team.

然后还要不断接受大量批评意见，并一直承受这些反馈。

And then also just get a lot of critical feedback and and take that all the time.

嗯

Mhmm.

对

Yep.

所以你现在正在领导CoWork的设计/独立贡献者工作。

So currently, you're you're leading design slash IC designing on co work.

是的。

Is that Yep.

太棒了。

Awesome.

所以Boris最近上了这个播客。

So Boris, he was on the pod recently.

他谈到关于CoWork应该是什么，有很多争论，有很多宏大的想法。

He talked about how there's, like, a lot of debate about what co work should be, there's all these big ideas.

但最终，他觉得不如直接把它做成一个终端，一个漂亮的终端。

And he's, in the end, let's just make it, like, a terminal basically in the product and just kind of a fancy terminal.

你能分享一下，在确定CoWork体验最终形态的过程中，你们是怎么决策的吗？

Is there anything you could share about just the process of landing on where you landed for that experience of co work?

顺便说一下，我现在显示器上就开着它。

I have it here on my monitor, by the way, looking at it.

关于 Co Work，我们内部已经做了很多不同的原型来探索它可能的样子。

I with co work specifically, we have had a bunch of different prototypes internally of what that could look like.

这是一类事情，我们尝试了很多方案，但一直不太确定什么时候才能真正准备好发布，然后突然间所有东西都堆在一起了。

And it's one of those things where we tried a lot of things and then we I think we weren't really sure like when it was actually going to be ready to ship and then it's sort of like everything all at once.

我们当时想，好吧，我们很快就要发布它了。

Like we were like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna ship it soon.

那也就十天左右。

It was like it was ten days.

花了十天时间开发。

Ten days of building.

是的。

Yeah.

但整体来看，时间肯定比那长得多。

It was it was it was definitely longer than that, like, overall.

从我们内部的版本到准备好对外发布，大概花了十天。

It was like ten days to get it from what we had internally to something that we were ready to ship externally.

所以我们已经构建它一段时间了，但一直不太确定它最终会采用什么形式。

So we've been building it for a while, but we weren't really sure about, like, the actual format it was gonna take.

而它最终成型的方式，其实是我们在不同代理框架上做了大量其他探索。

And so the way it got there is actually there was a a lot of different other explorations that we had internally on top of different agent harnesses and whatnot.

我们只是有一些原型，包含各种交互的零散部分，最终都融入了CoWork。

And we just had prototypes, little parts of the different interactions that ended up in CoWork.

比如，当Claude给你生成待办事项列表时。

So things like, when Claude gives you a to do list.

我们尝试了多种不同的形式来实现这一点。

We tried a bunch of different form factors for that.

我们还尝试了多种不同的方式来呈现多选题之类的交互。

We tried a bunch of different form factors for the way it, presents you different, like, multiple choice questions.

我们尝试了各种方法来向用户说明它的使用场景和其他功能。

We tried a bunch of different ways to teach people what the use cases are and whatnot.

我不确定我们是否找到了最完美的形式，但本质上，它就是一些内部已经运行良好、用户喜欢的功能，我们只是希望通过发布来获得更多反馈。

And I don't know if we like landed on the best form factor ever, but essentially, it was like stuff that was sort of already working internally that people liked that we just thought we were gonna get some more signal on by by releasing it.

所以我认为，强迫我们在那十天内发布它，就是把我们当时有的东西直接放出去，然后出去迭代，这正是我们正在做的。

So I think forcing ourselves to release it within that ten days that we did, it was just sort of like whatever we had, let's put it out there and then let's go out there and iterate from there, which is what we're doing.

你们发布时它在互联网上爆火了，所以效果不错。

And it blew up the Internet when you launched it, so it worked out.

是的。

Yeah.

今天CoWork中有没有哪个功能是你最自豪的，或者特别想尽快修复和改进的？

Is there a feature of co work today that you're either most proud of or just, like, can't wait to fix and and improve?

说实话，我觉得我最自豪的其实是咱们真的把它做出来并发布了，就这么简单。

Honestly, I think we're I'm I'm just most proud of us actually just, like, shipping it, to be honest, and putting it out there.

对。

And yeah.

我还说不上来目前有没有哪个具体的功能。

I I don't know if there's like one specific thing yet.

因为当你长期专注于一件事，尤其是作为设计师，你只会看到各种缺陷。

Because like I think when when you work on something and you work at it so long, especially as a designer, you're like, I don't know if I like, know, I all I can do is see flaws in it.

但我认为有很多让我兴奋的东西。

But I think there's a lot of stuff that I'm excited about.

比如，我们一直在迭代首页，让它变得更像这样：这些是你能交给Claude的任务，以及Claude正在处理的任务。

Like, we have been iterating especially on the homepage and to make that something where it feels more like, hey, these are like tasks you can give Claude and and the tasks that Claude are working on.

所以这个功能实际上即将上线。

And so that actually should be rolling out.

可能在我们对话时，这个功能已经上线了。

It might already be rolled out by the time this this

我明白了。

I see.

比如这个随机生成器，你点击它，它就会给你一堆不同的想法。

See like this little randomizer thing where you click it and it gives you all these different ideas.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当你真正开始和Claude一起处理事情时，感觉更像一个待办事项清单。

And then so when you actually start to work with Claude on stuff, it feels more like a to do list.

就像这些是Claude正在处理的事情。

Like, it feels more like these are things Claude's working on.

这些是Claude需要你关注的事情。

These are things that Claude needs your attention on.

我认为这里有一个机会，可以让它感觉更像你和Claude之间的共享待办清单。

And I think there's a just a there's an opportunity here to make it feel much more like this, like, shared to do list between you and Claude.

非常期待在这方面继续优化。

So excited to iterate on that.

然后我也很期待进一步思考，是的。

And then I'm also excited to think more about, yeah.

那么，这个东西真正的形态到底是什么？

Like, what is the actual true form factor of this?

它是永远固定在屏幕上的吗？

Like, is it stuck in the screen always?

还是说，它是如何与它所交互的不同界面进行互动的？

Or how does this sort of, like, reach out to the different surfaces that it's working with?

我很喜欢你提到，做这件事并不仅仅是十天的事。

I love that you shared that it wasn't just ten days to do this thing.

人们总是抛出一些数字。

There's, these numbers that people throw out there.

我们十天就把它做出来了。

We build it in ten days.

但你的意思是，其实之前花了很多时间思考方向、进行原型设计、模拟和尝试各种方案。

And your point is, like, there was time spent thinking about what direction it should go and prototyping, mocking, trying stuff.

然后才说，好吧，现在我们知道它应该朝哪个方向发展了。

And then it's like, okay, now we know where we want it to be.

我们来把它做出来并发布吧。

Let's build it and ship it.

是的。

Yeah.

不知为何，这件事变成了一个广为流传的误解，人们把所有协同工作公告中的内容都简化成了‘只用了十天’。

I think for some reason that became like the viral thing that got taken away from all of the the sort of co work announcements is that it only took ten days.

但我认为，实际上已经进行了无数种探索，许多人都参与了协同工作的不同部分，确实如此。

But I think there there have just been so many different explorations, and people that have worked on different pieces of co work that yeah.

这绝不是仅仅十天就能完成的，背后涉及了大量不同的人。

It was it was not just ten days, and there's a lot of different people involved.

这属于那种想法反复出现的情况，总感觉时机不对，或者有各种不同的版本。

It's it's one of those things where it's like the the idea kept coming back, and it's like never the right moment or there's like different variations of it.

然后突然间，时机成熟了，回过头看，一切似乎显而易见，但其实我们经历了漫长而曲折的历程才走到这一步。

And then all of a sudden, it's the right moment, and it feels like, oh, so obvious all along, but there was a long, long journey to get there.

顺便说一下，对于不太了解协同工作的人，我是这样理解的：它就像用双手在电脑上操作一样。

By And the way, for people that don't know much about co work is like, the way I think about it, it's like clawed with hands where you can do stuff on your computer.

那该怎么描述呢？用一两句话来说说看？

Is that is what's well, how would you describe it just like in a sense or two?

这个描述很好。

That's a good description.

我其实没听过这种说法，但我很喜欢。

I actually haven't heard that, but I like that.

我可能会更常使用‘用手抓取’这种说法。

I might use it more often as clawed with hands.

我还会把它想象成像Claude一样，Claude特别擅长把你的所有杂乱东西整理成美好的东西。

I also think about it as like, it's like Claude, but Claude is really good at taking all your garbage and then turning it into something nice.

我觉得我最喜欢Cowork的使用场景之一，就是给它一个装满我东西的文件夹。

Like I think one of my favorite like any sort of use case that I I really like out of Cowork is just like giving it a folder of my stuff.

不管文件夹里是什么内容，我都能从中提取出有价值的东西。

And it doesn't really matter what's in that folder, but I'm able to extract something good out of it.

我好多次都这么做过。

I've done that many times.

好的。

Okay.

回到管理以及管理者和设计师的角色，我想聊一聊招聘的事。

Coming back to managing and being a manager and the role of a designer, I'm talk about hiring for a little bit.

看到设计师的角色正在发生如此多变化，你目前会关注哪些新的特质呢？

So seeing how much is changing in the role of a designer, what do you look for that's maybe new?

比如，在招聘设计师时，你现在会特别看重哪些能力，认为它们对设计师在这个新时代取得成功至关重要？

Like, what do you now look for when you're hiring designers that you think is really important for them to be successful in this new world?

嗯，考虑到我所处的具体工作环境，我认为有一种韧性、随遇而安的态度非常重要，因为周围的一切都在快速变化，你必须愿意适应，尝试新方法、新工具，并主动学习，而不是固守旧有的流程和方式。

Well, I do think working specifically in the amount kind of environment that I do, there there's just like a sense of, like, resilience and, like, roll with it kind of thing that I think is really important because, yeah, so much is changing around us and you have to be really willing to adapt, to try out new methods, to try out new tools, and learn stuff as opposed to just, like, be stuck in the old processes, in the old ways.

但与此同时，我觉得目前有三种类型的人特别吸引我。

But then I think about also there's probably three archetypes of folks that are really interesting to me right now.

这些类型的人以前就让我感兴趣，但我觉得在这个时代，它们的重要性尤为突出。

And I think these folks were already interesting to me before, but I feel like is in this era feels especially important.

第一个我想称之为强大的通才。

So the first one I would call is, like, strong generalists.

不是那种普通的通才，他们只是对很多事情都略懂一二，而是那种近乎‘块状’的人，你知道的，在T型框架里，他们在几个核心技能上非常出色，能达到80分的水平。

So not just like regular generalists where they're, like, kind of good at a lot of things, but, like, people that are, like, almost, like, block shaped, you know, in that t shaped framework where it's, like, they're really good at, like, a few core skills, like, 80 percentile good.

说实话，我觉得这种人非常罕见，也很难招聘到。

I think this is, like, pretty rare and hard to hire for, to be honest.

但我喜欢这种人，因为我们已经看到设计这个角色正在不断延伸和拓展。

But I like this because the design role we've already seen is kind of, like, stretching and spanning.

对吧？

Right?

我们所有人都在变得更像产品经理，或者更像工程师。

Like, we're all becoming more PM shape or be all becoming engineering shaped.

所以如果你在几个不同领域都有扎实的技能，你就很容易灵活调整，扩展自己的角色。

And so if you already have strong skills in a few different buckets, it's really easy for you to sort of, like, flex around and expand your and expand your role.

这让我觉得非常令人兴奋。

So that's really exciting to me.

就是那种在很多方面都很擅长的人。

It's just somebody who is really good at a bunch of things.

这又是一个巨大的要求。

Again, a huge ask.

另一个让我非常兴奋的人是在T型框架中的深度专家，他们T型的竖线部分比大多数人更深。

And then the other person that's really exciting to me is in that t shaped framework, like a a deep specialist, like someone who's is t shaped, but like the the the tip of the t probably is like goes down farther than most other people.

比如那些在行业中排名前10%左右的人。

So folks that are maybe, like, the top, you know, like, 10% in the industry and whatnot.

再次强调，这种人极难找到，我很幸运能在这些地方工作，能够负担得起雇佣这样的人并真正把他们招进来。

Again, super hard to find, and I feel very lucky that, like, you know, working at some of these places, like, folks like these, you you could sort of afford to hire them and and and actually bring them up on board.

而我的最后一种类型，可能是我们所有人都忽视的，我称之为‘工艺型应届生’。

And then my last one is probably the one that I think we're all overlooking, which is what I call the craft new grad.

这是一种刚进入职场、却显得比实际年龄更睿智、更有经验的人，同时非常谦逊且渴望学习。

It's just somebody who's, like, early career and feels kind of like wise and experienced beyond their years, but is also just like very humble and and and very eager to learn.

我认为现在这种人非常有趣，因为大多数公司都在招聘资深人才，也就是那些有丰富经验、做过很多事情的人。

I think this person is really interesting right now because I think most companies are just hiring, like, senior talent, like folks that have done things before, are super experienced.

但鉴于当前岗位职责变化如此之大，我们被期待做的事情也在不断改变，我认为拥有一位几乎像白纸一样、学习能力极强、极度渴望掌握新方法、没有固有流程和惯性思维的人，是非常宝贵的。

But given how much the roles are changing and what we're expected to do is changing, I think having somebody who almost has, a blank slate and is just, like, a really quick learner and is really eager to learn, new tactics and stuff like that and doesn't have, like, all these baked in processes and rituals in their mind, that's super valuable.

所以我觉得，我们很多人都忽略了这些人，但我对此非常兴奋。

So I think those are the folks that I think a lot of us are just, like, overlooking, but I'm, like, really excited about.

这太棒了。

This is awesome.

关于深度T型人才，设计领域里有没有什么例子，他们特别擅长哪项技能？

On the deep t shape, what's an example of someone in design that has a like, what's what's a skill that they're really good at?

有时候有些设计师在技术方面特别强，几乎能占到50%，他们简直就是软件工程师。

Sometimes there's designers who are just, like, really technical in a way that where they could be, like, 50% they're basically a software engineer.

这非常有意思，尤其是现在，至少对我们来说，你直接与模型协作，拥有深厚的工程背景会很有帮助。

That's really interesting, especially because right now a lot of it is well, at least for us, it's like you're working directly with the model, it helps when you have just deep engineering expertise.

但另一种深度专业型人才，可能是他们在视觉设计上特别出色，比如专门设计图标之类的——毕竟现在人人都能做东西，拥有这种深度专长就显得特别重要了，对吧？

But another deep kind of specialist tea is just maybe they're just really good at visual design or just designing icons or something where things like that, given that everybody can make anything, you know, having that deep specialist slant feels like, oh, yeah.

他们能真正帮助我们打造与众不同的产品。

They can really help differentiate the things that we're building.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

然后还有块状型。

And then there's block shape.

我请过马克·安德森做播客嘉宾。

I had Marc Andreessen on the podcast.

我们管它叫FF形或者E形，就是多个T形并列，像横着的F，横着的E，我想是这样的。

We kind of called it the f f shape or e shape where there's like multiple t things, sideways f, sideways e, I guess.

你所说的，是不是指一个人在很多方面都特别擅长？

Is that what you're describing where there's like many things you're really, really good at?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且基本上，我不确定你是否几乎拥有他们的技能组合，但看起来确实像一个块状。

And like, basically, like, I don't know if you almost had their skill set, it would it would look like a block.

你知道吧？

You know?

它会因为

It would Because

有太多技能了，就像字母t一样分散开来。

there's so many skills that like the t is spread out.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

还有刚毕业的新人。

And the correct new grad.

所以这指的是这样的人：充满热情、开放、坚韧，而且非常聪明，我想这是关键的一部分。

So this is just, someone that is, eager, like, open minded, gritty, very smart, I imagine is a big part of it.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

如果有人是个刚入行的年轻设计师，想成功进入这个行业，你对他们的建议是什么，帮助他们有机会加入像Anthropic这样的公司？

If someone's, a new design like, a young designer trying to break in, to be successful, what would your advice be to them to help them have a shot at at ends up joining Anthropic, for example?

我只会说，多做一些东西。

I would just say that it was like build a bunch of stuff.

尝试各种东西，实际地做出一些作品。

Like, try a bunch of stuff out, build build actual things.

我觉得这可能让人感觉不太清楚，我不太了解现在设计教育或整体教育的状况如何。

I I think that is that can feel I don't really know what the state of like design education or education is these days.

但至少在我上学的时候，一切都非常理论化，比如我们会教你一些方法之类的。

But at least from like back when I was in school, like everything was very like theoretical and like here, we're gonna teach you some approaches and whatnot.

但我认识的那些优秀的应届毕业生，都是那些真正使用技术、动手做出实际东西的人。

But the best of like crack new grad folks I know are just like people who just use the technology, build actual things.

不要因为自己经验少就觉得自己受到限制。

Don't feel, like, limited by, you know, how little experience they might have.

我觉得有时候他们反而没有背负那些负担，因为我们这些在行业里待了很久的人，对自己有各种期待，但他们没有，他们觉得一切皆有可能。

I think that sometimes they're actually unburdened by that because, like, we have expectations of ourselves after being in the industry for so long, but they actually don't, and they sort of feel like anything is possible.

所以就是多做点东西，分享给他人，找到一群也这么做的人组成的社群。

And so just like building a bunch of stuff and and sharing it with people and finding a community of folks that that also do that.

是的。

Yeah.

我想补充一点，我上的学校后来才开始搞一个叫Socratica的项目，那是在我毕业几年后才出现的。

I think my my one call here too is like, I went to a school that started something called Socratica, like much about a few years after actually, while after I graduated.

这个项目的核心就是动手做东西，并像做科学项目一样展示出来。

And basically, whole thing is, like, building stuff and showcasing it almost like a science project.

我觉得那里正兴起一股很酷的潮流，人们就是单纯地做东西、搞创作。

And I think there's just been a really cool movement there of folks who just, like, build things and do things.

比如，有人做了一个叫Claude机器人的项目。

Like, for example, somebody built this, like, Claude robot project.

这也是几年前的事了，他们组装了一些运行Claude的机器人，还有人只是想在波士顿的一辆公交车上贴上卡通眼睛之类的东西。

This was, like, a few years ago too where they were, just assembling robots that were running on Claude, and then somebody else did something where she just wanted to put googly eyes on a bus in Boston or something.

这里有一种既充满主动性，又确实如此的感觉。

And there's just like a sense of of both, like, agency in terms of like, yeah.

我们可以直接动手做事情，同时还有一个社区，人们都在尝试、制作并互相分享成果。

We can just do stuff, but then also this community where people were just trying and building things and sharing things with each other.

所以，不管一个人来自哪所学校或毕业于哪所院校，做这类事情才是让人脱颖而出的关键。

So whatever that looks like given the, you know, the school that someone's from or graduating from, yeah, doing that kind of stuff is is is the stuff that will make people stand out.

对于那些已经身处职业生涯、非常资深的设计师来说，你认为有必要变得技术化，至少学习编程吗？

For current designers that are in a career, awesomely senior, do you think you need to get technical and learn to code at least build?

还是说，你可以非常成功，而不去深入这方面，而是把其他技能提升得更好？

Or do you think you could be really successful and just not lean into that and get better at other stuff?

我认为，至少不必深入到能从零开始编程那样去学习编程，但这确实有帮助。

I think it definitely helps to maybe not, like, learn how to code so much that that, you know, you're building something from scratch.

但我觉得，如今设计师的词汇表中越来越多地涉及到了实现某些东西。

But I it does feel like more and more of the designers vocabulary right now is implementing some stuff.

不过我在想，随着模型和产品变得越来越好，

I wonder though as, you know, the the models both the models and the products get better.

我们可能会继续向上提升抽象层级，你不再需要真正了解每一行代码是如何工作的。

If like, we'll I mean, we probably will continue to, like, move up the abstraction layer and layers, and you won't have to actually know how, you know, each single line of code will work.

但我认为，我想要说的是，把编码工具逐渐纳入你的工具箱。

But I think what I would say is, like, start to bring that into your, like, toolkit, the coding tools.

无论你是否真的变得技术化，我认为每个设计师都应该充分了解并掌握手头可用的工具，而不是一味地去学习 React 之类的特定技术。

Whether or not it's like you're actually becoming technical, I think any designer should just be really aware and, like, know how to use the tools that are at hand as opposed to maybe, like, learning and, like, going off and, you know, learning React or or etcetera, etcetera.

你觉得 Claude 或 Claude Code 作为设计师水平如何？

How good of a designer is is Claude, would you say, or Claude code?

你会雇用 Claude 当设计师吗？

Would however you wanna like, would you hire Claude as a designer?

他还达不到那个水平。

He's, like, not there yet.

我觉得Claude还达不到那个水平。

I don't think Claude is there yet.

我觉得在作为你可以雇佣的设计师这一点上，Claude还做不到。

I don't think Claude is there yet in terms of a designer you would hire.

我认为它还不是一个强大的通才，也不是一个深度专家，更不是顶尖的应届毕业生。

I think it is it is not yet the strong generalist or the deep specialist or the crack new grad.

我觉得它在初稿和呈现多种创意方面相当不错，但目前还没有任何东西让人觉得真正特别且值得雇佣。

I think it's it's pretty good at a first pass and at presenting a bunch of different ideas to you, but nothing there quite feels like, yeah, special and hireable yet.

这对现在的设计师来说是个好消息。

Which is good news for designers for now.

目前它在这方面表现得很差。

It sucks at this for now.

我非常好奇它在这方面能进步到什么程度。

And I'm so curious to see how good it could get at this.

这真是一个巨大的开放性问题

That's like such a big open question is

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

它能生成令人惊叹的、新颖独特的创意体验吗？还是说，它永远无法达到人类设计师那样的水平？

Can it pump out amazing novel unique creative experiences or is this it's just never gonna be that good as a as a human designer?

我的意思是，过去一两年它的表现已经提升了很多。

I mean, it's gotten a lot better in the last year or so even.

是的。

So yeah.

有一些管理方面的做法，我不知道该称它们为仪式还是观点，我听你同事提起过，我想聊聊这些。

There's a couple management, I don't know, rituals or takes you have that I've heard from folks that you work with that I wanna touch on.

其中一个是你有个大胆的观点，认为管理者的时间没有所谓的‘低价值’之分，那些被人们视为低价值的事情其实也能带来不少收益。

One is that you have this hot take that low leverage time for managers is just not a thing that there's a lot of benefit you can get out of things that people consider low leverage.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得刚当上经理时，有人给我一些建议，可能是来自课程或书本，说：‘现在你是经理了，必须好好分配时间，把工作分类。’当时有个二乘二的矩阵，我记不清具体内容了，但核心意思是：这些事只有你能做，这些事别人也能做，其他所有事都是低价值的，你再也不该做了。

I remember like first becoming a manager and I think one of the pieces like of advice that I either got from a course or a book or something is like, yeah, now that you're a manager, you have to like to really prioritize your time and categorize your work and there was like this two by two of like, I I don't remember what it was in it, but you essentially say like, oh, these are the things that only I can do.

很多所谓的低价值工作，其实都是一些特别琐碎、钻牛角尖的事情，或者干脆说，确实别人也能完成那些任务。

These are the things anybody else can do and everything else, it's low leverage and you shouldn't do that anymore.

但当我想到那些我最敬佩的领导者和经理时，我发现他们最出色的特点之一，恰恰是主动承担那些别人认为低价值的任务。

And a lot of the low leverage things were just you know, like things that are really nitpicky in the weeds or just like literally, yes, probably somebody else could do those tasks.

而实际上，这反而成了极高价值的行为，因为正是他们自己在做这些事。

But when I think about like leaders and managers that I have respect the most, I actually think some of the their best traits is that they choose like low leverage tasks that they take on themselves.

举个例子，当高级领导者反复测试产品，对产品了如指掌时。

And that actually ends up being actually a very high leverage thing because it's them who's doing it.

他们自己吃自己的狗粮，亲自复现bug。

So one example is whenever you have senior leaders who just test the shit out of the product and they're just so in tune with it.

他们亲自测试产品，深入体验，重现问题。

And they dog food it, they repro the bugs.

他们花大量时间与工程师一起查看日志、挑细节，诸如此类的事情。

They spend a bunch of time with engineers sharing the logs and nitpicking and stuff like that.

我认为这实际上是非常高杠杆的，尽管花了大量时间在这些琐碎的细节上，因为它培养了对产品的熟悉感，我觉得这非常好。

And I think that ends up being super actually high leverage even though it's a lot of time of like nitty gritty time because it creates this like familiarity with the product, which I think is really good.

它还营造出一种氛围：哦，是的。

It also creates this vibe where it's like, oh, yeah.

这位资深领导者非常重视产品，真正了解产品的内部运作，卷起袖子，提供反馈并与团队一起工作。

The this senior leader really cares deeply, and they actually know the inside of the product, and they're rolling up their sleeves, and they're giving this feedback and working with the team on it.

我认为，类似的情况是，当一位资深领导者能够亲自修复一个bug时。

And I think similarly to what I've seen is, like, when a senior leader is able to, like, fix a bug now.

你知道的吗？

You know?

我确实见过迈克·克鲁格曾经亲自提交过代码评审请求。

Even like, I think I've actually seen, like, Mike Krueger before, like, put put in PRs himself.

这真的很棒，因为这意味着：好吧。

And it's it's it's really nice because it's like, okay.

不错。

Cool.

我们都是这个团队的一员，没有什么事情是低于这个人的。

Like, we're all in this team together, and nothing is, like, below this person.

我还特别喜欢的一点，更偏向文化层面的是，当有人特意为别人制作周年纪念卡片之类的东西，送一份特别用心的礼物或一张非常精美的卡片，因为我觉得，虽然行政人员也可以准备卡片，但这种行为体现的是某人对团队有着深深的关怀，愿意付出额外的努力。

And I think simil another thing that I love that's a little bit more cultural is when somebody, like, goes out of the way to, like, make somebody's, like, anniversary card or something and, like, vibe code them super nice something super nice or make them something a super nice card because I think it just shows that, yeah, it's like an EA or somebody can put together the card, but this later is just somebody who cares so much about their team that they put in the effort.

所以我努力践行的一点是，选择那些看似低效但实际上值得我花时间的事情。

So that's something I try to embody is, like, choosing the, like, the the seemingly low leverage tasks that are, like, worth my time.

是的。

Yeah.

这太有趣了。

That is so interesting.

你所说的，某种程度上意味着，那些低效的事情往往最具影响力，因为你的下属根本不会指望你花时间在这些事情上。

Like, what you're saying there is, in a sense, like, the low leverage stuff is the one is the stuff that often has the most impact because your reports wouldn't expect you to spend time on this thing.

很多情况下，低效的事情反而带来了高回报。

And there's a lot like, the low leverage ends up being high leverage.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这正是让你的领导风格对某些人来说显得独特和特别的原因。

And I think it's what makes, like, your style of leadership stand out or feel special to a certain person.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我还听说了你管理团队的另一种仪式和方式，那就是你鼓励团队成员互相调侃，表面上看这似乎不是一个理想的环境。

Another, I don't know, ritual and kind of way of running teams that I heard about you is, you encourage, team members roasting each other, which on the surface doesn't sound like a wonderful environment.

但另一方面，我听说，卡恩西，你所带领的团队是最开心、绩效最高的团队。

But, on the other hand, I hear, Kansi, that the teams that you've built are just the happiest, the highest performing teams.

谈谈你对这种调侃文化的鼓励，以及你在打造优秀团队方面学到的经验吧。

Talk about, I guess, this idea of roasting and encouraging that and just what you've learned about building awesome teams.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我不是在说，嘿，你们应该互相调侃。

I think it's not that I'm like, yo, you should roast each other.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我不是那种会强行要求大家这么做的。

Like, I'm not, like, forcing it in that way or anything.

但当我想到团队的心理安全感，以及那些相处融洽的人时——想想你的朋友，你总是愿意稍微突破界限，开他们玩笑。

But when I think about the sort of psychological safety and teams and, like, people that just get along with each other, like, when you think about your friends, you know, you're you're always sort of willing to, like, push the boundaries a little bit and, like, roast them.

你经常开玩笑地调侃朋友，但可能不会怎么调侃同事，因为这一切都关乎舒适感和安全感。

Like, you're roasting your friends a lot, but you actually might not be roasting your coworkers a lot because you it's it's all just about like comfort and and safety.

对吧？

Right?

所以并不是我想要我的团队互相调侃。

So it's not that I'm like, oh, I want my teams to roast each other.

但我认为，当团队成员能轻松地互相开玩笑时，这其实是一个很好的信号。

But I think it can be a really good sign when, the people on your team kind of feel comfortable just like kind of poking fun at each other a little bit.

而且，当大家对你这位领导者也有同样的感觉时，这也是一个好迹象——他们不会那么怕你，而是感到一种安全感，知道即使说点什么也不会被开除。

And I think that also can be a good sign when folks also feel the same way about like you as a leader where it's like there's just an element of like they don't they don't fear you as much, but they and they feel like there's a sense of safety where they if they say something, they're not gonna get fired.

举个例子，我上一个团队经常会拿我在评审时说的一些话开玩笑，比如我常说的话。

So an example of this is like with my last team, I feel like they would make fun of things that I would say at crits sometimes, like certain phrases I would say.

能举个具体的例子吗？

What's an example of that?

我不知道。

I don't know.

比如，我总是会说：好吧。

Like, I oh, I would always be like, okay.

接下来的步骤是什么？

Like, what are next steps?

我们该怎么跟进这件事？

And like, how do we follow-up on this?

然后他们就会跟着说：好吧。

And then they'd be like, okay.

接下来的步骤是什么？

Like, what are next steps?

他们就这样模仿我的说话方式。

And and they would sort of channel me in that way.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是觉得这显示出一种程度，就是说，好吧。

I just think it shows a level of like, okay.

这些人并不一定害怕我。

These people are like not necessarily afraid of me.

他们知道他们信任我。

They know that they trust me.

他们可以信任我。

They could they could trust me.

而且他们彼此之间，以及对我个人的生活都足够了解，能够知道那些界限在哪里。

And it's it's and then they sort of, like, know enough about each other and me, like, personally in our personal lives to be able to, like, know sort of where those boundaries are.

但与此同时，我认为你在那个领域所触及的问题是，作为管理者，你和下属是朋友吗？

But at the same time, I think the the the thing that you sort of air into in that territory is, like, are you as your as a manager, are you friends with your reports?

这正是人们常告诉你要避免去做的事情。

Which is I think the thing people tell you, like, not to do.

因此，我认为平衡这一点的方式是：你必须建立一种基本的心理安全感，让每个人不仅彼此感到舒适，也对你感到安心，但同时你也要确保他们明白，你有着极高的标准。

And so the way I think about balancing this out is like, this creates like the you have to create this sort of like baseline of psychological safety and people feel comfortable both with each other and with you, but you also have to make sure that you they know that you have really high standards.

我认为这两者看似矛盾，但实际上它们能很好地协同作用，因为一旦建立了心理安全感，人们彼此信任，也信任你，这时再提出高要求反而可能更容易，因为你可以在没有恐惧的情况下做到这一点。

And I think these two things can feel like they're at tension, but I think they're actually they work really well together because it's like once you have that psychological safety, you have people trusting each other and you, applying the high standards actually, I think, becomes potentially easier because you can do it without fear, I think.

我常常从一种类似严厉父母的角度来思考这个问题。

And I sort of think about this from the approach of like, kind of like being a tough parent a little bit.

你懂吗？

You know?

就像，哦，是的。

It's like, oh, yeah.

比如我的团队，我与他们相处的方式是，他们知道我始终会在那里，不会随意解雇他们。

Like, they my team, I work with them in a way where they know I'm always gonna be there, and I'm not just gonna fire them on a whim or something.

但与此同时，他们也知道，我真心希望他们能变得最好，我有着很高的标准，并且我与他们合作，只为做出最出色的工作。

But at the same time, they also know that I want the best for them, you know, and that I have high standards and that, you know, I I'm working with them to to make the best work possible.

所以，是的，我认为这就是你需要把握的平衡：创造一种环境，让你的团队能够轻松地调侃你，但同时他们也知道必须做出出色的工作，并且他们会与你一起做出卓越的成果。

And so, yeah, that's the balance I think you just write because, like, can you create this environment of one where your team feels comfortable, like, roasting you, but at the same time, like, they know they have to be doing great work, and they and that they will do great work with you.

这真是很棒的建议。

That is awesome advice.

这种管理风格经常重现，或者说好的管理，总会让人想起那是什么来着？

It's interesting how often this this, just like management style comes back or management, good management, it comes back reminds me of what was it?

坦诚直言，激进坦诚。

Candid radical candor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就是这种既深切关怀又直接挑战的结合。

Just this combination of caring deeply and challenging directly.

是的。

Yeah.

而且

And

我在这里听到的意思是，要确保人们知道你非常关心他们，但同时也要非常直接，并保持高标准。

that's kind of what I hear here is just make sure people know that you care deeply about them, but also be very direct and have high standards.

是的。

Yep.

对。

Yep.

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

好的。

Okay.

也许最后一个问题是。

Maybe a final question.

我一直在寻找人们在工作中发现有用的有趣框架、方法和流程。

Always looking for interesting frameworks and methods and processes that people have found useful in their work.

我听说你非常推崇一个叫做‘可读性框架’的东西。

And I hear you're a big fan of something called the legibility framework.

嗯。

Mhmm.

谈谈这个。

Talk about this.

谈谈你是怎么用它的，为什么它如此有价值。

Talk about how you use it, why it's so valuable.

是的。

Yeah.

这个框架，我想我去年在推特上看到过，是SPC的合伙人埃文·塔纳提出的。

This framework, I think I saw it on Twitter of maybe last year or something, and it was Evan Tana who is a partner at SPC.

他是一名风险投资家。

He's a VC.

它基本上是一个二维矩阵。

So it basically is this like two by two.

虽然它并没有引起太多关注，但我一旦看到它，就一直忍不住思考。

I don't think it like got so much attention, but I once I started seeing it, I like actually couldn't stop thinking about it.

在这个二维矩阵中，他基本上把创始人分为两类。

So on the two by two, he basically has, like, founders.

创始人可以是可理解的或不可理解的，而创意也可以是可理解的或不可理解的。

Like, founders can be either illegible or legible, and then ideas can either be illegible or legible.

他 basically 说，如果创始人和创意都是高度可理解的，那这个创意可能并不新颖，因为已经有人在实施或执行它了，你实际上并没有发现什么新的东西。

And basically, he was saying that, like, okay, if if both the founder and idea is, like, super legible, the idea is probably not that novel and somebody's already like they're already gonna implement it or or or do it and you're actually not finding something new.

但真正有趣的地方在于创意本身是不可理解的时候。

But then where it gets really interesting is where the idea itself is illegible.

所谓不可理解，他指的是这种创意处于前沿，人们可能还无法理解，或者它的表达方式不够清晰，无法让人立刻明白。

And by illegible, he means like, oh, it's sort of like really, you know, on the frontier, people might not get it yet or like the way it's being told, it just doesn't it's not like being told in the in the in the way that makes this most sense to people.

我认为，这对风险投资人来说显然是个很好的操作方式，因为他们要寻找那些别人看不到的机会，并将其推向世界。

And I think this is obviously a good way for a VC to operate because they're try to look for the opportunities that people don't see and put them out there in the world.

但我还认为，设计师的角色——至少在Anthropic这样的前沿实验室中——就是要发现那些不可理解的创意，理解其中的价值，并通过叙事、用户体验、产品形态等方式将其转化并呈现出来。

But I also think that, like, part of the role of the designer at least, at least at at a at a frontier lab at Anthropic is kind of spotting the ideas that are illegible and trying to understand what's there and how to take that and, like, transform it, whether it's through storytelling or whether it's through, like, the actual UX and the form factor and and and and put it out there.

当我提到浏览Slack、查看大家在做的所有东西时，我其实就是在做这样的事。

And I think there's, like like, when I mentioned, you know, going through Slack and, like, looking at all the stuff that people are making, like, that's kind of what I'm doing.

我正在试着看，哦，是的。

I'm trying to see, like, oh, yeah.

有哪些想法其实很有潜力，但目前还不太清晰，值得我在工作中进一步思考？

What are the ideas that are really that, like, there's, like, some energy there around, but, like, might not make sense yet that that are worth me, like, thinking about more in my work.

其实有一个很好的例子和协同工作相关，那就是我们内部的一个原型，我们称之为Cloud Studio，我想是去年年中有人开发的。

There's there's one good example actually that, like, ties to co work, where there was this internal prototype that we've called, like, Cloud Studio that I think somebody built, like, partway through last year.

它本质上是一个基于某种智能代理框架构建的、非常密集且强大的界面。

And it essentially was this this, like, really kind of, like, dense, powerful interface that was built on top of some agentic harness.

那时候可能用的是Claude Code。

I I it might have been Claude code at that point in time too.

它有各种显示界面，展示出Claude所拥有的所有知识、技能以及正在执行的操作，并预览它的输出结果。

And it had all these, like, dis displays where it's showing you, like, all this knowledge and all these skills and and things Claude was doing and, like, previewing its outputs.

对设计师来说，我看了之后觉得：这到底是什么情况？

And I think to a designer, I looked at it and I like, this is like I don't know what's going on.

我真的搞不懂。

I don't really get it.

但后来我看到了研究团队的人、构建它的人，还有公司内部的其他人，大家都对它充满热情。

But then I sort of saw the folks in research, the folks building it, and and just folks internally, there's just a lot of energy around it.

我当时就想，太棒了。

And I was like, cool.

我觉得这里面一定有什么东西，只是我还没理解清楚。

Like, I think there's, like, something here, but I just don't understand it yet.

这其实是一个非常难以理解的想法的例子。

I think that really was an example of an an an ill illegible idea.

最终，从中诞生的是技能框架，以及那些指导Claude如何做事的Markdown文件。

And ultimately, what came from it was, like, the skills framework and and and, like, the sort of, like, markdown files that sort of that instruct Claude on how to do something.

这些成果都源自这个具体的原型。

So that came out of that specific prototype.

我并没有直接参与这个项目，这些都是负责这个原型的团队从中提炼出来的。

That was not something I was directly involved in, and that was more of, like, you know, the folks working on this prototype extracted that out of it.

但当真正开始做Claude Cowork时，我又想到了，是的。

But when it did come to work on Claude Cowork, and I was thinking about like, oh, yeah.