当前科技行业弥漫的悲伤、孤独与倦怠 | Molly Graham

也就是说，形式肯定会变，但在有确凿证据之前，如果我们相信它们不会消失，而是会自我革新呢？

Which is like, the form is definitely going to change, but until we have real evidence, what if we believe that they're not going away, they're just going to reinvent themselves?

这个建议太棒了，而且到目前为止确实就是这样发展的。

That is awesome advice, and that's exactly what's been happening so far.

总是有这种担忧，觉得好吧，但过几年情况就会不同，但实际上这正是正在发生的事情。

There's always this fear that, okay, but now it'll be different in X years, but that is actually exactly what's been happening.

工程学依然存在，只是工作内容不同了。

Engineering exists, different job.

实际上，对工程师的需求比以往任何时候都大。

There's actually more demand than ever for engineers.

没错。

Exactly.

你的数据表明——

Your data said that-

……我当时就想，“谢谢你发布这些数据，Lenny。”

... and I was like, "Thank you for publishing this data, Lenny."

在我们进入建议部分之前，先聊聊它是怎么演变的，我想分享几件事，正好呼应你提到的大家现在的感受。

Before we get into the advice, kind of how it's evolved, there's a couple things I want to share which touch on things you mentioned about how people are feeling.

所以我会一边聊一边在屏幕上展示这些图片，就是关于大家现在的感受，回到刚才那个话题。

So I'll share these images on the screen as we talk about this, of just people's feelings right now, just to kind of come back to that point.

我们连续两年做了这个调查，看看科技行业的人感受如何，他们对AI这些事怎么看。

So we did the survey for two years now in a row of how tech people are feeling, and how they're feeling about AI and all these things.

现在我们有了一个随时间变化的趋势，我们关注的是倦怠感和乐观情绪。

And so we have a trend now of over time how things are changing, and we look at burnout and optimism.

2025年，44%的人说他们感到倦怠。

And in 2025, 44% of people said they feel burned out.

今年，55%的人说他们感到倦怠。

This year, 55% of people said they are burned out.

这个增长幅度很大。

That's a huge jump.

一年之内，感到倦怠的人增加了10%。

That's 10% increase in a year of people feeling burned out.

这说得通。

And it makes sense.

就像你说的，现在基本上就是要求你用同样的钱干更多的活。

As you said, you're basically now expected to do more work with not probably more money.

现在感觉就是，"好吧，行。

And now it's just like, "Okay, cool.

你有了这么多AI。

You got all this AI.

为什么你还没干更多活？"

Why aren't you getting more done?

看看其他团队，他们进展快多了。

Look at all these other teams moving so much faster.

我们完了。

We're screwed.

我们要倒闭了。

We're going to go out of business.

我们得加快速度了。

We've got to move faster."

所以，这说得通。

So, it makes sense.

我很喜欢你做那个调查，因为每次你发布的时候，我也觉得我能学到很多东西。

I love that you do that survey because I also think I learn a ton from it every time you've published it.

而且它也是对人们感受的一个很好的现实检验，因为你的调查明确显示，超过一半的人——

And it also is just a great reality check about how people are feeling, because literally what your survey says is more than half the people-

超过一半

More than half

——都感到精疲力竭。

... are feeling burnt out.

是的。

Yes.

这太疯狂了，而且，对，我相信这一点。

Which is nuts, and also, yeah, I believe it.

我觉得，倦怠的来源有很多种，对每个人来说意义也不同。

And I think, burnout comes from a lot of different places and can mean a lot of different things to people.

但对我来说，我从那些数据里读到的，第一是情绪很消耗人，而且试图理解正在发生的事情会让人非常疲惫……

But to me, what I read inside that data was, number one, emotions are tiring, and there is a lot of exhaustion trying to understand what's going on in a...

现在变化的速度真的很快，不仅是技术上的变化，我觉得叙事上的变化也让人挺累的。

The rate of change right now is nuts, both in terms of obviously the technological change, but I actually think the narrative change is also pretty exhausting for people.

比如，“哦，这个月，这个很重要。”

Like, "Oh, this month, this is important.

哦，下个月，这个……”

Oh, next month, this..."

这种反复折腾本身就挺累人的。

There's a thrash inside of that that's pretty tiring.

我和一个在OpenAI工作的朋友发邮件，她说：“我们真的花了六个月时间，从那种‘最大化利用token、大家拼命提高效率、到处用AI’的状态，转变成现在这种‘等等’的讨论。”

I was emailing with a friend at OpenAI, and she was like, "It's taken us literally six months to go from this token maxing, everybody aggressive productivity, use AI everywhere, to a conversation that's like, 'Wait.'

这真的有用吗？

Is this actually making a difference?

因为成本太高了。

Because it's very expensive."

她说：“六个月。

And she's like, "Six months.

就花了这么长时间。”

That's all it took."

所以如果你身处其中，就意味着六个月前，他们还在说：“随时随地，每天都要用AI。”

And so if you're sitting inside that, it means six months ago, they were like, "Use AI all the time, every day, everywhere."

现在他们却在问：“你用得好不好？”

And now they're like, "Are you doing it well enough?"

希拉里·格里德利也说了同样的话，六个月前，大家都在问：“怎么让大家用AI？”

And Hilary Gridley said the same thing where she was like, six months ago, everyone was like, "How do I get people to use AI?"

现在他们却在问：“怎么让大家别把AI用得那么糟糕？”

And now they're like, "How do I getpeople to stop using AI so badly?"

这种六个月的折腾，往往比这更快，让人感到疲惫。

And it's like that six-month thrash, often much faster than that, is tiring for people.

这种失落感本身就让人疲惫，更别提你在调查里提到的那个感觉——‘我得多干活，但工资还是那么多。’

The grief is tiring, let alone I think that feeling which you mentioned in your survey of, "I'm going to be expected to do more for the same amount of pay."

这真的很让人心累。

That's exhausting.

我觉得人们会觉得自己被利用了，心里想：‘这对我有什么好处？’

I think people feel taken advantage of and like, "What is in this for me?

这对我来说有什么乐趣？

Why is it fun for me?

我的机会在哪里？

What's the opportunity for me?"

而且我觉得尤其是在大公司，有时候感觉几乎像是对抗一样，我明白这对公司利润有好处，但请告诉我这对我的好处是什么。

And I think particularly at bigger companies, it feels almost adversarial sometimes, where, I get why it's good for our bottom line, but remind me why that's good for me.

这其实触及了这次调查中最大的发现之一，那就是首先，填写调查的人中有一半感到前所未有的快乐。

That actually touches on one of the biggest findings in this survey, which is that first of all, half of people that filled it out are feeling the happiest they've ever felt.

有一点很重要，我们得说清楚，不是所有人都——

This is an important point we need to make, is not everybody's-

...也有这种感觉——

... feeling this-

完全同意

Totally

...这种恐惧和一切都完了的感觉。

... fear and sense that it's all doomed.

事实上，有一半的人觉得自己的职业生涯正处于最美好的时光，他们对正在发生的所有事情都感到非常兴奋。

That actually half of people are feeling like they're having the best time of their life in their career, and they're so excited about all the things going on.

你可能没有这种感觉。

You may not feel that.

如果你不是这样，你可能不会相信。

If you're not that, you may not believe that.

但据我所见，周围很多人都非常兴奋。

But from what I can see around me, many people are very excited.

尽管他们比以往任何时候都更加努力工作，但他们对职业生涯的满意度也是前所未有的。

Even though they're working harder than they've ever worked, they're also the happiest they've ever been about their career.

嗯，我记得当时的背景是，很多幸福感往往集中在那些团队规模较小或者拥有更多权力的人身上。

Well, and I think the context, if I remember, was a lot of the happiness tended to be concentrated in people that were in smaller teams or had more authority.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

更有趣的是，最强的关联是那些说AI放大了自己能力的人。

And even more interestingly, the strongest correlation is people who said that AI has amplified them.

他们觉得自己已经学会了如何利用AI去做更多让自己兴奋的事情。

They feel like they've figured out how to use AI to do more stuff that they're excited about.

有趣的是，设计师在这项工作中是最不快乐的，而我从设计师那里听到的也是，每个人都在加速前进。

And interestingly, designers were the least happy from this work, and that's actually what I hear from designers, is everyone's moving faster.

设计无法那么快。

Design can't move that fast.

你必须从人们那里获得反馈。

You have to get feedback from people.

你必须经历这个过程，达成一致。

You have to go through, get alignment.

你得思考，坐在那儿好好想想。

You need to think, sit there and think.

不能光靠智能体迭代和建模就完事了。

You can't just agent iterate and model it up.

所以——

So-

我也觉得，是不是可能——嗯，我不知道你是不是从设计师那儿听到的，但现在好像人人都成了设计师。

I also think, isn't there probably-- Well, I don't know if you're hearing this from the designers, but there's also a like everyone's a designer now.

对，这也是其中一部分原因。

Yeah, that's also part of it.

我在教育行业工作的时候，那是个特别难干的行业，因为每个人都当过学生，所以每个人都觉得自己懂行。

When I worked in education, it's one of those industries that's really hard to work in because everyone was a student once, so everyone thinks they know things.

我觉得现在设计师也面临这种情况，就像有人说‘哦，对，我刚在Gemini里做的’，或者‘我刚在Claude里做的’。

And I feel like now designers have that, where it's like, "Oh, yeah, I just made this in Gemini," or, "I just made this in Claude.

给你。

Here you go.

这是我的设计。

Here's my design."

而且，我觉得很多行业和整个产品都是这样，就是“我做了这个”和“真正做得好”之间的差距。

And by the way, I think this is true of a lot of industries and whole products, where it's like the gap between I made this and what is actually great.

我创建了这个原型，和做出一个出色的产品之间的差距真的很大。

The gap between I created this prototype and a product that is exceptional is really big.

设计行业显然也是如此，而且设计对普通人来说变得容易多了。

The same is true, obviously, of design, and design just got way more accessible to the average person.

至少普通的设计变得很容易上手，但当别人总是对你的工作指手画脚时，这可能会让人很烦。

At least okay design got really accessible, which can be exhausting when people are telling you how to do your job all the time.

我前几天发了一条推文，反响挺大的，说的就是这个意思。

I had this tweet the other day that got a lot of traction along these lines.

现在越来越多的工作内容，就是帮别人收拾他们用AI搞出来的烂摊子，而那些人本来是想做你的工作的。

A growing part of everyone's job is cleaning up the AI slop from other people trying to do your job.

对。

Okay.

所以我对这件事有很多感触，这又回到了我们之前聊的超级智能的话题，就是说AI是你雇过的最聪明的员工，比你在所有方面都强。

So I have a lot of feelings about this, and it goes to this super intelligence thing that we were talking about, where it's like we're saying AI is the smartest employee you've ever hired in the entire world, and it's better than you at everything.

我觉得这会让人们以那种方式去对待它，但实际上我们大多数和AI打交道的经历，我想很多人都有过这样的体验，就是AI会说：“这是错的。

And I think it causes people to approach it that way, when actually most of our experience with AI, I think a lot of people have had the experience with AI where it's like, "That's wrong.

我刚让你做这个。

I just asked you to do that.

这不行。”

This isn't good."

我一直觉得AI需要和人类一样的指导和培训。

I always think AI needs the same coaching and training that a human does.

它需要背景信息，需要入职培训，需要所有这些。

It needs context, it needs onboarding, it needs all of these things.

而且它更像一个实习生，经常是个糟糕的实习生。

And it's much more like an intern, like a bad intern, often.

我管它叫懒惰的实习生。

I call it a lazy intern.

而且，就像你说的AI垃圾内容，大家把它当成雇过的最好的员工，所以就直接复制、粘贴、发送。

And what happens, to your point about AI slop, is that folks are approaching it as if it's the best employee they've ever hired, so they just copy, paste, send.

但我觉得，如果你把它当成实习生，你绝不会这么做。

And I'm like, you would never do that if you thought about it as an intern.

你绝不会把实习生给你的演示文稿直接转发给你的老板。

You would never take the presentation that an intern handed you and just straight forward it to your boss.

那……有点疯狂，对吧？

That is ... a little bit insane, right?

你会反复修改，编辑，确保它包含了和暑期实习生那57次对话的所有背景，然后才把演示文稿发给老板。

You would iterate on it, you would edit it, you would ask, make sure that it had all the context from the 57 conversations that you've had with the summer intern before you ship that preso to your boss.

AI也是一样。

AI is the same.

我觉得现在世界上这么多垃圾内容，部分原因是人们把责任推给了AI。

And I think part of what's going on with all the slop in the world is people have shipped accountability.

就像，'哦，AI说这够好了，所以我就直接复制、粘贴、发送。'

It's like, "Oh, AI said this was good enough, so I'm just going to copy, paste, send."

但好的工作从来不是这么产生的。

And that is never been how good work happens.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以我觉得我们需要转变一下观念，别再把它当成一个比我们所有人都聪明的超级智能，而是——不，它就是个实习生，兄弟。

So I feel like we need a change from this super intelligent being that's better than all of us at our jobs to like, no, it's just a fucking intern, man.

它需要指导、背景信息，还有大多数实习生都需要经历的大量迭代。

And it needs the coaching and context and all of that, and many iterations that most interns do.

还有一点，就像你说的关于责任的问题，如果你不对自己工作的质量负责，那这个责任就会落到别人头上，对吧？

And I think the other thing, to your point about accountability, or to your point about if you don't take accountability for the quality of your work, that shifts to someone else, right?

收到你工作的人就得替你收拾。

The person that receives it has to deal with it.

这对组织来说就是个负担。

And that is just a drain on organizations.

我真的见过很多CEO，我们在Glue Club里经常聊这个，他们发出的战略备忘录明显就是AI写的。

And I literally see CEOs, we talk about this all the time in Glue Club, CEOs shipping a strategy memo that was clearly written by AI.

这就是你在给整个组织做示范，告诉大家把思考外包出去没问题，把战略外包出去也没问题。

That is you role modeling for your organization that it's fine to outsource your thinking, and it's fine to outsource your strategy.

你在示范，你不需要对自己发出的工作负责。

It's you role modeling that you don't need accountability for the work that you send.

我觉得这归根结底是过去六个月我们太看重生产力了。

And I feel like it goes down to this thing of this last six months, we've really been overvaluing productivity.

就像你听到的那些公司数token、搞token排行榜的故事，这让我想起以前人们数停车场里的车、Slack上的消息和代码行数的日子，对吧？

Which is just like, you hear all these stories about companies counting tokens and having token leaderboards, and it brings me back to the days when people were counting cars in a parking lot and Slack bubbles and lines of code, right?

我们都知道那是一种非常糟糕的管理方式。

Which we all know is a really bad way to manage people.

我们一直在想怎么在跑步机上跑得越快越好，但没想过自己到底有没有前进。

We've been focused on how do you run as fast as you can on the treadmill, but not am I going anywhere?

在我看来，这就是生产力和效率的区别。

Which is, to me, the difference between productivity and efficiency.

生产力就是你能不能产出更多，而到了现在，我觉得我们已经证明了，我们都能产出大量别人得费力去消化垃圾内容，就像你那条推文说的那样。

Productivity is can you generate more, which at this point I think we've proven we can all generate a bunch of shit that other people then have to wade through, to the point of your tweet.

但这算高效吗？

But is that efficient?

这真的能推动对话向前发展吗？

Does that actually move the conversation forward?

而最近的答案显然是：不，不能。

And the answer lately has been why no, it does not.

在那份报告里，我用了一个冰山的比喻，就是我们在表面做得更好。

In that report, I have this iceberg image of just we're doing better on top.

哦，看看这些东西。

Oh, look at all this stuff.

但产出反而更差了，思考和判断力在下降。

But the output is worse, thinking judgment is coming down.

所以我们有很多方面在关注。

So there's a lot of things we're watching.

好消息是，大家都意识到了这一点。

The good news, everyone's aware of this.

大家心里都在想，‘对，也许我们不该这么工作。’

They're like, "Yeah, maybe this isn't the way we should be working."

不是的。

No.

所以，确实是这样。

So, yeah.

之前有一份挺有意思的工程报告指出，对于工程团队来说，这确实让大家的工作效率提高了。

There was this really interesting engineering report that said for engineering, it has genuinely made people more productive.

但是需要重写的代码行数增加了大约八倍。

But the amount of lines of code that have had to be rewritten has gone up like 8X.

所以这是一个非常明显的生产力下降的标志。

So it's this very clear symbol of productivity.

显然，安全事件也增加了，等等。

Obviously, also the security incidents have gone up, et cetera.

所以看起来生产力和效率之间存在差距，我觉得你提到的倦怠数据部分原因就是因为人们被工作量压得喘不过气来。

So it's like there's just this difference between productivity and efficiency, and I think part of your burnout data is people are just getting swamped.

如果整天都在琢磨对方到底有没有认真想过这个问题，那确实很累。

And that's exhausting if what you're doing all day is wading through did the person on the other side of this actually think about it?

他们真的在乎吗？

Did they actually care?

这很让人疲惫。

That's tiring.

感觉这样浪费时间。

That doesn't feel like a good use of your time.

就是有点让人恼火。

It just feels a little bit infuriating.

这又回到了那种失落感，就像‘天哪，我好怀念以前做的事’。

It comes back to the grief of like, "Oh, man, I miss what I used to be doing."

‘看看我现在干的这奇怪的新工作’。

"Look at this weird new job I'm doing."

对，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

好，那我们回到你的建议上来。

Okay, so let's come back to your advice.

我们刚才聊了一个很重要的话题，但先总结一下“交出你的乐高”这个说法里仍然成立的部分，然后再聊聊哪些已经不再成立了。

We kind of went on a really important tangent, but let's summarize what's still true about giving away your Legos, and then we'll talk about what's no longer true.

那我简单总结一下。

So I'll summarize briefly.

你说话的时候我记了一些笔记。

I took some notes as you were talking.

仍然成立的是，改变是可怕的。

So still true, change is scary.

这很正常。

That's normal.

要理解这一点。

Understand that.

这是人性的一部分。

It's part of human nature.

我们都不喜欢变化。

We don't like change.

学习比知道更重要，这仍然是一个非常重要的关注点。

Learning over knowing, still a very important thing to focus on.

不知道没关系，但如果你专注于学习，你可能会没事的。

It's okay if you don't know, but if you're focused on learning, you'll be probably okay.

在成功的公司里原地踏步，实际上就是在落后。

This idea of standing still at successful companies is actually you're falling behind.

你的公司在成长。

Your company's growing.

如果你不成长，不迎接新的挑战，不放手一些东西，你就会落后。

If you're not growing and taking on new challenges and giving away stuff, you're going to fall behind.

还有别的核心要点吗？

Is there anything else core to what's still?

我想补充一点，那就是变化是可怕且困难的，你能做的最好的事情就是拥抱它。

I think I would just add one, which is change is scary and hard, and the best thing you can do is lean into it.

这虽然不是你本能想做的事，但在面对变化时，这确实是你最好的选择，这也是乐高传达的信息。

It is not what your instincts tell you to do, but it is actually the best thing you can do in the face of change, and that was the message of Legos.

基本上，你需要拥抱变化带来的不适感才能成长，我觉得这在今天依然适用，即使现在可能比以往任何时候都更让人害怕。

Basically, you need to lean into this comfort of change in order to grow, and I think it is still true today, even if it is maybe even scarier than it's ever been.

本季的赞助商是DX。

This season's supporting sponsor is DX.

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通过DX，你可以衡量和对比AI应用在整个产品生命周期中的影响。

With DX, you can measure and benchmark the impact of AI adoption across your full product life cycle.

DX会告诉你AI在哪些方面帮助了开发者，又在哪些地方造成了新的瓶颈。

DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks.

你还可以用它来评估AI供应商，监控成本和许可证，并准确看到是什么在限制你的智能体。

You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents.

这就是为什么包括Snowflake、Sony和BNY在内的数百家企业都在用DX平台来衡量AI对开发者生产力的影响。

That's why hundreds of enterprises, including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use the DX platform to measure AI's impact on developer productivity.

访问 getdx.com/lenny 获取 DX 的演示。

Visit getdx.com/lenny to get a demo of DX.

就是 getdx.com/lenny。

That's getdx.com/lenny.

好的。

Okay.

那么现在有什么不同呢？

So now what is different?

大体上的建议是，好吧，放手，让自己变得可有可无。

The advice broadly is, okay, give away, make yourself redundant.

会没事的。

It's going to be okay.

我知道。

I know.

这是今天很难谈论的话题。

That's the one that's hard to talk about today.

让自己变得无关紧要，各位。

Make yourself irrelevant, everybody.

一切都会很顺利的。

It's going to go great.

有意思的是，当AI真正开始火起来，我第一次……

It's funny, when AI first really took off and I first...

说实话，我花了一段时间才真正理解发生了什么。

It took me a while to really understand what was going on, in total honesty.

我一开始是个怀疑论者，心想：“我们一直在搞自动化。

I was a skeptic for a while, where I was like, "We've been automating things for a while.

这有什么特别的？”

What is this?"

但后来我慢慢接受了，突然有一天我意识到：“哦，你知道我以前去公司演讲前会问的那个问题吗？就是‘你们的人员增长速度有多快？’”

But eventually, I got on board, and all of a sudden, I was like, "Oh, you know that thing I used to do before I went to give a speech at someone's company where I was like, 'How fast is your head count growing?'"

对我来说，那是我唯一用来判断有没有人可发乐高积木的指标。

For me, that was the only symbol I had of, are there people to give Legos to?

如果我上台说“把你们的乐高送出去”，很多人会反应说：“等等，我们根本没在招人。”

If I'm going to get up on stage and be like, "Give away your Legos," a lot of times people are like, "Wait a minute, we're not hiring anyone.

那我该给谁呢？

Who do I give it to?"

但现在我明白了，这个信息更加贴切，因为每个人都可以尝试自动化自己的一部分工作，每个人都可以把乐高送出去。

But now I was like, oh, okay, this message is even more relevant because everyone can try to automate parts of their job, and everyone can give Legos away.

我得说，这真是一段有趣的旅程，我意识到把东西交给机器人和交给人类是完全不同的体验。

And I will tell you, it has been an interesting journey realizing how different it is to give things away to robots than it is to give them to a human.

乐高的核心意义在于，你把自己一直在做的东西，完全交给另一个人。

And principally, the point of Legos was you take this thing you've been working on, and you fully hand it to someone else.

我在公司做乐高演讲时，最常被问到的一个问题是：把乐高送给别人最好的方式是什么？

One of my favorite questions that I get asked at companies when I do the Legos talk is, what is the best way to give Legos away to someone else?

我喜欢这个问题，因为我觉得大家基本上期待我会说：“你应该非常小心地把这个乐高递给这个人，并详细解释你为什么把它放在那个位置。”

And I love it because I think basically people expect me to be like, "So you should incredibly carefully hand this Lego to this person and explain to them exactly why you put it in the position you put it in.

完美地描述你的塔，确保他们有一本不会搞砸的说明书。”

Perfectly describe your tower, make sure they have an instruction manual that they won't fuck up."

其实我的答案是，不。把乐高送出去的最好方式，就是直接扔到他们脸上，然后转身就跑。

And my answer is actually, no. The best way to give Legos away is to chuck them at their face and run in the other direction.

因为我们的本能，还是想要控制。

Because our tendency, again, is towards control.

我们的本能是，"你必须完全按照我搭的方式搭这个塔，不许搞砸。"

Our tendency is to be like, "You will build this tower exactly how I built it, and you will not mess it up."

但实际上，重点是，不，你是在把它送出去。

But actually, the point is, no, you're giving it away.

你需要彻底把自己的想法抛开。

You need to fully separate your mind.

你只需要把它交给他们，然后相信那座塔的未来属于他们。

You need to just hand it to them and trust that the future of whatever that tower is belongs to them.

这当然会带来很多恐惧和一堆乱七八糟的东西，但同时也有巨大的自由。

And there is both obviously a lot of fear and a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that, but there's a huge amount of freedom.

你把这些脑力空间，直接打包寄给他们。

You take this brain space, and you ship it to them.

有意思的是，我最大的一个领悟就是，把任务交给机器人和交给人是完全不同的，因为你没法摆脱监督的责任。

Interestingly, one of my biggest realizations was that delegating something to a robot is not the same as giving it to a human because you cannot get rid of the oversight.

这更像是把任务交给团队里的某个人。

It's more like delegating something to someone on your team.

你仍然要负责。

You still own it.

所以是的，我们确实变得更高效了，因为机器人能帮我们做这做那，但这和交给一个人不一样，因为监督的责任还是在我们自己身上。

And so yes, we've gotten more efficient because the robots can do X, Y, and Z for us, but it's not the same as giving it away to a human because we still own the oversight.

最终的产品还是我们负责，这意味着心理负担还是在你身上。

We still own the final product, and that means the mental tax stays with you.

所以是的，从某些方面来说，我能做更多事情，但从心理上，所有机器人做的事情带来的负担还是全在我这里。

So yes, in some ways, I can do more, but psychologically, I still have all the burden of all the stuff that all the robots are doing.

我觉得这确实让情况变得很不一样，因为这意味着你没有那么多空间去继续做新的事情。

And I think that does make it quite different because it just means you don't have as much space to then go on to the new things.

你还是得承担所有这些负担……

You've still got all the tax of...

监督的成本不是零。

The cost of oversight is not zero.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

我还在想，这是不是你那些关于倦怠的数据里的一部分原因——突然之间，我要监督所有这些机器人，可能还有所有这些人类，负担更重了。

Again, I wonder if this is part of what's going on with some of your burnout data is just all of a sudden, I'm overseeing all these robots and maybe all these humans, and it's more.

所以，我觉得最大的区别之一就是，这确实不完全一样。

So anyway, I think that's one of the biggest differences is just it isn't exactly the same.

这就像把一块乐高真正转给别人，和把一块乐高委托给别人之间的区别。

It's like the difference between transferring a Lego to someone where you genuinely get rid of it versus delegating a Lego to someone.

你描述的方式真有趣，你需要从这件事的责任中抽离出来，但现在恰恰相反，别人在做这件事，比如AI，但你仍然要负责。

It's so funny the way you described it, where you need to disconnect from the responsibility of this thing now, and that's the opposite now where somebody else is doing this, the AI, but you're still responsible.

所以就像有一座乐高塔，一个小机器人过来，说“好，我现在来处理这个”，但你仍然要代表这座塔——

And so it's like having this Lego tower with this little robot coming through and, okay, I'm going to work on this now, but you still have to represent this tower-

向你的老板汇报。

... to your boss.

所以我完全能理解这个比喻。

And so I could 100% see this metaphor.

就像你——

It's like you're-

你讲清楚了为什么这让人难受。

You make it clear why it sucks

……如果你是管理者，这种感觉很熟悉。

... if you're a manager, it's a familiar feeling.

你的团队规模翻倍了，现在你手下有这些奇怪的小机器人，偶尔会把塔搞砸，你还得说：“不对，不对，我不是那个意思。”

Your team got twice as big, and now you just have these weird little robots that occasionally fuck up the tower, and you have to be like, "No, no. That's not what I said."

这又是在管实习生。

Which is, again, managing an intern.

你懂的。

You get it.

但如果你不是管理者，从来没当过管理者，我觉得有必要说明一下，就像我说的，管理机器人，这些技能和管理人非常相似。

But if you're not a manager, if you've never been a manager, and I do think it's important to name that, like I said, managing robots, those skills are very similar to managing humans.

它们感情少一些，但监督、给背景信息、纠正工作、指导这些技能，管理机器人和管理人类是一样的。

They have less feelings, but it's all the same skills of oversight and giving them context and correcting their work and coaching and all those skills are the same for managing a robot as they are for managing a human.

很多人不喜欢这玩意儿。

And a lot of people don't like that shit.

很多人主动选择不当管理者。

So many people actively chose not to become a manager.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

所以，如果你不喜欢委派任务，如果你多年没练这些技能，突然要你管理，就会很累。

And so there is exhaustion that comes with if you don't enjoy delegating, if you haven't worked on all these skills for many years, then suddenly you are in that stance of management.

但这意味着现在世界上每个人都是管理者了。

But it just means literally everyone in the world is a manager now.

你给机器人分配任务，就像给团队里的其他人分配任务一样。

And all you're doing when you're delegating to robots is delegating just like you would to another human on your team.

所以我常说，一个人最多管理10到12个员工最合适。

So, I always say the happiest, the max people should be managing is 10 to 12 employees.

我管理过比这更大的团队，效果并不好。

I've managed bigger teams than that, and it was not a good look.

而且我不认为有任何数据表明现在人们能管理更多。

And I don't think there's any data that says that people can manage more than that now.

如果把机器人也算进去，我真担心大家的心理状态。

And if you count robots, I'm worried for people's psychology.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

就是脑子里要装的东西太多了。

In terms of the amount you have to hold in your head.

我搞了很多乱七八糟的东西，现在有一堆不同的智能体在跑。

I build a lot of random stuff, and I have all these different agents running.

一方面，这真的很棒，所有事情都能完成，就像‘哇，看这玩意儿跑起来了。’

And on the one hand, it's so awesome, and all these things get done, and it's just like, "Wow, look at this thing go.

它把所有事情都做了。

It did all these things."

而且我整天被这些人各种消息轰炸，都是问‘这个怎么样？’

And then also, I get pinged all day from all these guys that are like, "What about this?"

好吧。

Okay.

‘哦，我卡在这儿了。’

"Oh, I'm stuck here.

‘哦，这个行不行？’

Oh, is this good?"

我就想，‘好吧，我得把这些都看一遍。’

And I'm like, "Okay, I've got to look through this all."

其实，我也跟一个真人工程师合作，这让我更珍惜那些特别棒的工程师，你只要给他们一个大概的想法，他们就能自己发挥，做得特别好，而不是像这样，‘不行，这太烂了。’

Actually, so I work with an actual human engineer also, and I'm just like, it makes you appreciate a human-awesome engineer that you could just give a rough idea to, and they could run with it and do an awesome job versus, "Nah, this sucks.

‘好吧，再试一次，’然后坐在那儿等五分钟。

Okay, let's try again," and then sit there for five minutes and wait.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

管理初级员工和管理高级员工有什么区别？

What is the difference between managing junior employees and managing senior employees?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

现在的AI，就像是初级员工。

AI right now, pretty junior employees.

这不是我最喜欢的管理方式。

It's not my favorite form of management.

我总说：“给我那些高绩效的人。

I always say, "Give me the high performers.

我能把他们变成超级火箭。”

I can turn them into these incredible rocket ships."

管理实习生、管理刚入职的新人，真的很累，我觉得管理AI就是这种感觉。

Managing interns, managing folks that are brand new to the workplace is pretty tiring, and I do think that is what it feels like managing AI.

而且这跟扔个乐高给别人然后跑掉完全不一样，那种事你可以对你的高级工程师做。

And it's so different, like I said, than throwing a Lego at someone and running the other direction, which you can do with your senior engineer.

说得太对了。

Such a good point.

好，我们马上会讲到具体的建议。

Okay, we'll get to actual advice.

这是你应该做的。

Here's what you should probably do.

但在那之前，关于“交出你的乐高”这个原始建议，还有什么不同的地方？

But before we get there, what else is different about the original advice around giving away your Legos?

第一个点说得太好了，你让我清楚地看到，把乐高交给机器和交给人是完全不同的，因为你并没有真正交出去。

The first one's so good, just like you made it so obvious why it is very different to give your Legos away to a machine, because you're not actually giving away.

它们只是把活儿干了，但责任还在你身上，你还得盯着。

They're just going to do the work, and then you're still responsible for it, and you have to oversee it.

对，我觉得第二个很不一样的地方，我们其实已经聊到了一点，但我一直说的是，你之所以要把事情交出去，是因为只有这样才能腾出空间去迎接新的机会。

Yeah, and I think the second thing that's really different, and we sort of talked about a little bit already, but my message was always you give things away because the only way you can make space for new opportunity is by giving things away.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

这背后有两个假设。

And that has two assumptions under it.

第一，把东西交出去是好的；第二，另一边会有新的机会。

One, that it's good to give things away, and two, that there's new opportunity on the other side.

我觉得我之前谈到的恐惧叙事，是现在让我特别抓狂的一件事，我们在Glue Club里也经常聊，就是那种主流说法，说AI会让所有工作消失，还有那些打着AI旗号的裁员。

And I think what I talked about with the fear narrative is one of the things that's driving me nuts in the world, and we talk about it a lot in Glue Club, is just this dominant narrative that all these jobs are going away because of AI, and all these layoffs that are branded as AI.

这种氛围下，谁还能抱着那种“好啊，我们把所有事都交给机器人吧”的心态呢。

That is not going to support anybody being in a stance of like, "Yeah, let's delegate everything to these robots.

把我们的脑力和数据全给它们，就为了等那些所谓的新机会。

Let's give them every piece of our brain and our data so that we can have all this new opportunity that's coming along."

我觉得这是现在最难聊的话题。

I think it is the hardest conversation to have right now.

你说得对，确实有很多人特别兴奋，真的有。

And to your point about there's lots of people out there that are really excited, there are.

我希望每个人都能这样，因为现在真的是一个不可思议的时刻。

And I want that for everyone because this is an incredible moment.

我在科技行业干了快二十年，见过不少东西。

I've been in technology for almost 20 years, and I've seen a lot.

但这一刻真的很特别。

But this is one of those moments.

这就像手机时代的超级加强版，各种新生意都会冒出来。

This is the mobile phone on steroids where it's like all sorts of businesses are going to be created.

我相信这项技术会创造很多新工作。

I'm a believer that a lot of jobs are going to be created because of this technology.

但我觉得我们得先好好聊聊，才能让大家都愿意积极参与，对吧？

But I think we've got to start having that conversation in order to get to the place where everyone can be leaning in, right?

每个人都能说：'太好了，那些我讨厌的活儿都能自动化，这样我就有更多时间做我喜欢的事了。'

Everyone can say, "Oh, it's great to automate all these tasks that I hate because it gives me more time to do the things that I love."

这就像你刚才说的，有些人觉得这让他们更有干劲，就像：'太好了，我不用再做那些无聊透顶的工作了。'

Which is, I think to your point about the people that feel amplified by it, it's like, "Oh, I don't have to do all this boring-ass work.

我可以专心做那些让我开心的事。'

I can just focus on the things that bring me joy."

“我可以专注于我擅长的事情。”

"I can focus on the things that I'm great at."

这就是我们想要的。

That's what we want.

但现在媒体在传播一种说法，说“另一边没有你的位置。”

But while there's this narrative out there that media companies are propagating that says, "There's nothing for you on the other side."

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

“我们有全民基本收入。”

"We've got universal basic income.

“每个人都需要国家支持，因为十年后没人会有工作。”

Everyone needs to be supported by the state because no one's going to have a job in 10 years."

如果真是这样，谁他妈还想把乐高给机器人玩？

Who the fuck wants to give Legos to robots if that's the narrative?

没人。

No one.

我去参加了一个叫Foo Camp的活动。

I went to this thing called Foo Camp.

你听说过Foo Camp或者Tim O'Reilly吗？

Have you heard of Foo Camp or Tim O'Reilly?

我听说过。

I've heard of it.

Tim O'Reilly创办了O'Reilly Media，是个很厉害、很聪明的人。

Tim O'Reilly, who started O'Reilly Media and awesome, smart guy.

他提出了Web 2.0这个概念。

He came up with Web 2.0 as a concept.

他会组织一些小型的、比较私密的聚会，邀请他认为能对某个话题有贡献的人来讨论。

He organizes these little kind of intimate camps where he invites people that he thinks can contribute to this conversation, to talk about a topic.

最近这一次的主题就是，当AI越来越多地接管我们的工作时，人类会怎么样。

And this last one was around just what happens with humans when AI does more and more of our job.

一开始是他跟一个人聊天，我记得是个律师，那人就说：“好吧，我把自己做这份工作所掌握的特定知识都藏着掖着，这样AI就学不会。”

And it started with him talking to some, I think it was a lawyer, who's just like, "Okay, I'm hoarding this very specific knowledge I have about doing this job so that AI cannot do it."

就像在说，'我得保护好它，不然的话——'

It's like, "I need to protect it because otherwise-

对，没错。

Yeah, dude

……

...

我就会被取代。

I'm going to be replaced.

他们就不再需要我了。'

They don't need me anymore."

我觉得很多人可能都有这种感觉，尤其是那些特别小众的专业领域。

And I feel like a lot of people are probably feeling that, a lot of specific niche professions especially.

是的，完全同意。

Yeah, absolutely.

首先，当然是这样。

First of all, yes, of course.

你怎么可能不这么想呢？

How could you not be feeling that way?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许我是个乐观的人，也许六个月或五年后我会后悔说这些话，但我觉得，我一生中所有的经验，以及一些对话，比如和米努什的那次，都告诉我你得积极拥抱变化。

Maybe I'm an abundance person, and maybe I'll regret saying this in six months or five years, but I'm like, every piece of data I have from my entire life, and some of these conversations I've had, like the one with Minouche, say you got to lean in.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

那种保护、紧抓不放、固守已知的做法，并不是你在变化中茁壮成长的方式。

That protection and holding on and gripping to what you know is not the way you thrive in change.

定义未来的不是那些人。

It's not the people that define the future.

再说，米努什的故事也说明，律师这个职业永远都会存在。

And again, the Minouche story would say lawyers are always going to exist.

但他们的工作方式每六年、每三年，或者不管多久，都会变得完全不同。

They are going to look completely different in every six years or every three years or whatever.

那你觉得律师的下一个版本会是什么样子？

So what do you think the next version of a lawyer looks like?

你想参与设计那个未来吗？

Do you want to be part of designing that?

你想参与创造那个未来吗？

Do you want to be part of creating that?

你想参与探索那个未来吗？

Do you want to be part of figuring that out?

还是你想留在这里，努力守住你现在熟悉的东西？

Or do you want to stay here and try to protect what you know?

我觉得，对我来说，现在外面确实挺吓人的，我不想低估这一点，但你必须拿出那种主动的姿态，或者换个词，创业精神。

And I think that's, to me, again, it's scary out there right now, so I don't want to undervalue that, but I think you have to take that stance of agency, or we got to use a different word, entrepreneurship.

你必须拿出那种态度："我想参与设计我职业的未来，而不是守护它的过去。"

You've got to take that stance of, "I want to be part of designing the future of my profession, not protecting the past."

我真的很喜欢这个框架，也许这就是这次对话里最重要的一条建议，就是米努什的那种思维方式：我的工作会变，但它不会消失。

I really, really love this framework as almost a, maybe that's a big part of the advice from this conversation, is this way of thinking from Minouche, which is like, my job will be different, but it'll continue to exist.

问题只是它会变成什么样？

And the question is just what will it be?

让我想想这个问题，积极面对，做好准备，而不是试图抗拒，因为抗拒反正也没用。

And let me think about that, lean in, prepare for that almost, and not try to resist, because resisting's not going to work anyway.

如果你听米努什的故事，那真是一个充满创业精神的故事。

And if you listen to Minouche's story, it's such an entrepreneurial story.

我知道不是每个人都擅长这个。

And I know that not everyone is great at that.

但这非常符合“让我试试下一步”的态度。

But it is very much the, "Let me try this next."

就像——但对她来说，我认为这源于一个信念，即这个职业在演变和变化，而她想参与定义它的未来。

It's just like- But for her, I think it was founded in this belief of this profession is evolving and changing, and I want to be part of defining the future of it.

再说一次，我认为在数据真正告诉我们不同之前，我会采取这种立场，尤其是在科技领域。

And again, I think until the data genuinely tells us otherwise, I would say that is the stance I would take, particularly in tech.

如果你相信五年后会有更多、更有趣的工程岗位，你会怎么做？

What would you do if you believed there were going to be more and different interesting engineering jobs in five years?

如果你相信放手之后会有机会，你会怎么做？

How would you behave if you believed there was opportunity on the other side of letting go?

好吧，我们看看这个话题还有什么可聊的，因为这真的很有帮助，就是说，好吧，这会很顺利。

Well, let's see if there's more to that thread, because that's really helpful, which is, okay, this is going to go great.

我的产品经理们会做得很好。

My product managers will thrive.

对产品经理的需求会更大，因为这里很多听众都是产品经理、工程师和创始人。

There'll be more need for product managers, because a lot of listeners here are PMs, engineers, founders.

那么你觉得在那个需求更多的世界里，人们应该尝试做些什么呢？

So what do you think people should be trying to do in that world where there will be more?

是要关注自己如何被放大吗？

Is it pay attention to how you're amplified?

还是要看看那些做得好的人，然后模仿他们？

Is it look at people who are doing great and do what they're doing?

你觉得人们怎么做才能在那个未来里成功呢？

What do you think people could be doing to succeed in that future?

有意思，我们之前聊过。

It's funny, we had a conversation.

我和我的团队在公司里组织顶尖人才小组，我们主要做的就是让领导者们互相交流、互相帮助。

My team and I run these top talent cohorts at companies, and a lot of what we do is get leaders talking to each other and helping each other.

有一位设计负责人提出了一个问题，她说：“他们不让我发布代码。”

And this woman, who is a head of design, brought this problem where she was like, "They won't let me ship code."

她说：“我其实已经做完了。”

She was like, "I did it.

她说：“基本上是我自己搭起来的，我就想把它上线。”

I basically built the thing, and I was like, 'Just let me get it to production.'"

她跟工程团队沟通就像撞上一堵墙，他们就说：“不行，你不能发布代码。”

And she was talking to engineering was like a brick wall, where they were like, "No, you can't ship code.

你是设计师。

You're a designer.

我是工程师。

I'm an engineer.

上线的事归我管。

I own what goes to production."

而且不让东西随便上线是有充分理由的，尤其是在金融行业，他们就是做这个的。

And there are good reasons for not letting things go willy-nilly to production, particularly if you work in the financial space, which they did.

我理解。

I get it.

但我认为，很大程度上，我们需要打破设计师和工程师之间的这些壁垒，对吧？

But I think so much of the stance is we've got to break down some of these walls between what was a designer, right?

工程师是干什么的？

What was an engineer?

产品经理是干什么的？

What was a PM?

这显然是现在正在发生的很多事，但我们怎么才能真正放下过去所知道的？

This is obviously a lot of what's happening, but how do we really shed what we knew?

这当然很难。

Which, again, is hard.

放下那些积木很难，你懂我的意思吗？

It's hard to let go of those Legos, you know what I mean?

然后想象一下，好吧，那会是什么样子？

And imagine, okay, what does it look like?

这就是为什么我觉得创业圈这么开心，因为他们不用跟过去的条条框框作斗争。

This is why I think the startup land is so happy is because they're not fighting against the way things were.

他们是在创造未来的可能性。

They're inventing the way things could be.

那在公司内部，怎么为这种创新留出更多空间呢？

And how can you make more space for that inside of a company?

对我来说，这是我到处讲的第一件事：如果你不引导大家走向创造性的对话，而是走向恐惧的对话，那你就是在带领一群吓坏了的人，对吧？

To me, is the number one thing I talk about when I go, which is if you're not leaning into the creativity conversation versus the fear conversation, you are leading folks who are just terrified, right?

你怎么让大家进入一种状态：我很兴奋，我想尝试新东西，我想让这个设计师试着把代码发布到生产环境？

How do you get people into a stance of, I'm excited, and I want to try things, and I want to tentatively let this designer ship code to production?

所以对我来说，我觉得，你怎么能想象一个没有那么多隔阂的世界呢？

So to me, I think, how can you imagine a world with less walls?

你怎么才能拆掉那些在过去15年、20年、25年里，我们一直觉得特别重要的墙呢？

How can you get rid of some of those walls that have felt so important for the way we've done things for the last 15, 20, 25 years?

我觉得这个话题，很多人真的应该好好聊聊。

I think that is a conversation that a lot of folks should be having.

顺着这个思路，我想确认一下，你的意思是，比如我一直做设计师，那你的建议是不是说，未来几年我可能会做点别的，不只是设计师了？

Just along those lines, just to be clear, is the idea here, okay, I've been a designer my whole life, is the advice there, okay, maybe I'll be something else in the next few years that's not just designer?

就是说——

Is that-

嗯，我觉得你很多对话都在——

Well, I feel like a lot of your conversations are-

很多人——

A lot of people-

……指向这个方向。

... pointing.

对，说得有道理。

Yeah, that's fair.

我觉得亚当·莫塞里之前来过这里，我以前和他一起工作过——

I think Adam Mosseri was on here, who I worked with-

……很多年前，他是个设计师，他说，嘿，你是个设计师，所以你就只做这些事情——

... many years ago and was a designer, and he's saying, hey, the idea that you're a designer and therefore you only do these things-

……这种想法显然在改变，对吧？

... that's obviously changing, right?

现在你可以做原型，可以在某种程度上进行更深入、更丰富的对话。

Now you can prototype, you can have a much more robust and deep conversations to some extent.

你可以写代码并发布。

You can ship code.

埃琳娜·瓦尔纳谈到过作为营销人员把代码发布到生产环境。

Elena Varna was talking about being a marketer and shipping code to production.

所以对我来说，过去就是有这些非常明确的角色和一套运作方式，我们得摆脱很多这些，因为现在有些事情是以前做不到的。

So to me, there just were these very defined roles and a way that things worked, and we've got to shed a bunch of that, because things are possible now that weren't possible before.

当你听米努什的故事时，她说的很多内容都表明，过去唯一的新闻形式就是坐在新闻编辑室里，受雇于某个大型新闻集团。

And when you listen to Minouche's story, so much of what she's talking about is the only form of journalism used to be sitting in a newsroom employed by some giant news corporation.

现在想想新闻业，人人都是记者，比如Substack。

You think about journalism today, everybody's a journalist, like Substack.

她提到的其中一点很疯狂，就是你和商业模式的关系。

And part of what she talked about is the crazy thing is your relationship to the business model.

以前就是拿工资，现在每个记者都成了创业者。

Again, it used to be a paycheck, and now it's like every journalist is an entrepreneur.

我能想象科技领域有很多这样的转变，但你必须愿意打破所有壁垒，开始从根本上问：新闻是什么？

I just can imagine a lot of those transformations in tech, but you have to be willing to break down all the walls and start asking the questions of fundamentally, what is journalism?

从根本上说，设计是什么？

Fundamentally, what is design?

从根本上说，产品管理是什么？

Fundamentally, what is product management?

顺便说一句，这个问题我们早就该问了，因为不同公司的情况差别很大。

Which by the way, is a question that we all should've been asking for many, many years, because it looks really different at different companies.

我觉得这对每个人来说都应该如此，那就是当我们剥去很多积累起来的东西后，这些不同角色的价值是什么，然后5年或10年后它们可能变成什么样？

And I feel like that should be true of every single person, which is what is the value of all these different roles when you strip away a lot of the stuff that we've built up, and then what might it look like in 5 or 10 years?

莫莉，这里有个大问题，我想很多人都在好奇。

Here's the big question, Molly, that I think a lot of people are wondering.

有没有哪些乐高是你应该留着、不该送出去的？

Are there any Legos you should not give away, that you should resist giving away?

这跟你多年来的建议可是大相径庭啊。

Which is a radical departure from your advice over the many years.

完全同意，我知道。

Totally, I know.

在准备这次对话的时候，我意识到这是最大的不同。

As we were preparing for this, I was realizing that's the biggest difference.

再说回我经常被问到的问题，无论是在网上还是演讲时，其中一个就是：你有没有后悔送出去过乐高？

Again, to the questions I get asked a lot, both online and when I give speeches and stuff, one of them is, have you ever regretted giving a Lego away?

有没有什么东西是不该送出去的？

Is there something you shouldn't give away?

而在那种快速扩张的公司里，机会扑面而来、砸到你头上，我的回答是：不，尽管送出去吧。

And in the context of sort of the rapid scale company where opportunity is flying at you and getting dumped on your head, my answer is no, give them the fuck away.

你往往无法想象接下来会发生什么。

You cannot often imagine what is coming next.

你不可能总是设计未来，而且未来并不总是清晰的。

You can't always design the future, and it's not always clear.

有时候你确实是在放弃已知，踏入未知，但基本上在每一个例子里，这都是个好主意。

Sometimes you are genuinely giving away the known and stepping into the unknown, but it has basically always been a good idea in every example.

我亲眼见过，也在我多年合作和指导的每个人身上看到过。

I've seen both personal experience and everyone I've worked with and coached over many, many years.

在人工智能领域，我觉得我们得加个前提。

In AI land, I think we've got to caveat this.

我觉得有些乐高是不该送出去的，那些机器人既不该得到，我们也应该保留。

I think there are some Legos that ... shouldn't be given away, that the robots both don't deserve and that we should hold onto.

我觉得这正是关于AI垃圾内容讨论中开始浮现的一个问题，就是有些工作就是不该外包的。

And I think that is one of the things that's starting to show up in this conversation around AI slop, is there's just some work that shouldn't be outsourced.

我对AI的殷切期望是，它能让我们少做一些一开始就不该做的事情，多做一些人类最擅长的事情，对吧？

My fervent hope for AI is that it lets us do less of the things we shouldn't have been doing in the first place, and more of the things that humans are best in the world at, right?

坐过Waymo的人都有这种体验，哇，这太不可思议了。

Anybody that's ridden in a Waymo has this experience of, "Whoa, this is crazy.

人类根本不该开车。

Humans shouldn't be driving."

开车本质上就是一堆代码和系统，而我们其实很不擅长自动化操作。

Driving is fundamentally just code and systems, and we're really bad at being automated.

我们连红灯都停不下来。

We don't stop at the red lights.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以我觉得，哪些事情是我们特别擅长的？

So I think what are the things that we're uniquely suited to do?

这些就是我们该紧紧抓住的。

Those are the things we should hold onto.

这其实也涉及到刚才说的‘AI垃圾内容’这个话题，也就是那些需要判断力的事，对吧？

And some of that is inside this slop conversation, which is things that require judgment, right?

再说回那些让AI给战略然后直接复制粘贴发给全公司的CEO们，不行。这从根本上来说是需要人脑来负责的，作为CEO，你必须自己掌握这个，对吧？

Again, to the CEOs that are asking AI for a strategy and then copying and pasting it and sending it to their company, no. That is fundamentally something that a human brain, that you as a CEO of your company need to own, right?

而且我觉得那些需要信任、对人际关系至关重要的事情，我们不应该把这些外包给机器人，因为原因有很多。

And I think things that require trust, that are fundamental to relationships, we should not be outsourcing these things to robots because, well, for any number of reasons.

我觉得有些事情，如果你自己都不知道什么是好的，你怎么能交给你的暑期实习生呢？

I think things where if you don't know the definition of good, how can you give it to your summer intern?

如果你自己都不明白什么是质量，那你就还不能把它外包出去。

If you don't understand what quality is, you can't outsource that yet.

这些只是我的一些例子。

So those are just examples from me.

我相信你也有一些。

I bet you have some, too.

但对我来说，这是我最近一直在思考的最大问题之一，就是到今天为止，我觉得有些东西我们就是不应该放手。

But to me, that is one of the biggest things I've been thinking about lately, is as of today, I think there's some stuff we just shouldn't give away.

突发新闻。

Breaking news.

这跟那个真是天壤之别。

What a departure from this.

你写这个是多少年前的事了？

How many years ago did you write this?

13年前？

13 years?

对，13年。

Yeah, 13.

哇。

Wow.

真不简单。

That's something.

这标志着——

That's a sign of-

时代的标志。

A sign of the times

我们正在经历的变化，现在有些东西我们应该保留。

... the change we're living through, that now there's some things we should keep.

有些东西要留住。

Hold onto some of them.

真有意思。

So interesting.

你说话的时候，我脑子里冒出几个想法。

There's a few thoughts I had here while you were talking.

这几乎就是在讨论AI应该做什么。

This is almost a discussion around what should AI do.

你希望AI参与哪些方面，不希望它参与哪些方面？

Where do you want AI to be involved, and where you not want it involved?

我很喜欢一个框架，就是让AI处在事情中间。

One framework I've loved is this idea of you want AI in the middle of stuff.

你要站在最上面，去构思，就像说：'这是我们要去的方向，这是想法。

You want to be at the top, coming up, just like, "Here's where we want to go, and here's the idea.

我是这么想的。

Here's what I'm thinking."

然后AI做一堆事情，你再检查，反复调整直到完成。

And then AI does a bunch of stuff, and then you review it, iterate until it's done.

三明治。

Sandwich.

AI三明治。

The AI sandwich.

三明治，莱尼。

Sandwich, Lenny.

人类三明治。

The human sandwich.

对，兄弟。

Yeah, dude.

天哪。

Oh, man.

这就是——

There's the-

好，我们快到了。

Okay, we're getting there.

我们快找到一个比喻了。

We're getting a metaphor

……这就是答案。

... there's the answer.

另一个是塔拉刚才听你说话时想到的。

The other is something Tara just thought of as you were talking.

塔拉分享了一个很好的观点，就是人类仍然需要引导我们走向我们想要的世界。

So Tara shared this really good perspective that humans are going to be necessary to help guide us towards the world we want to have.

我们要打造的产品，而不是最优化的人工智能版本。

A product we want to build, versus the most optimal AI version.

作为一个长期使用爱彼迎的人，不是针对谁，但如果你用过缤客，你会发现体验和爱彼迎很不一样。

I think as a longtime Airbnb person, nothing personal, but Booking.com, if you've seen a very different experience than at Airbnb.

Booking.com，他们的整个理念就是，把每一次互动的每一秒都榨干。

Booking.com, their whole philosophy, let's optimize the shit out of every second of interaction.

所以全是各种加价、压力和紧迫感，就像“天哪，只剩一个位置了。”

So it's just all these upsells and pressure and stress, just like, "Oh my God, only one spot left.

你只剩五秒钟了。

You have five seconds left.

赶紧订吧，一百个人都在抢呢。”

Just book 100 times, 100 people book it."

就像——

It's just like-

压力太大了。

It's stressful

……压力确实大，但效果也真好。

... it's so stressful, but so effective.

你一进去，就会想，“哎呀，我得马上订下来。”

You go there, you're like, "Oh, shit, I've got to book this right now."

你会觉得，"我都没意识到我在订，但我已经订了。"

You're like, "I didn't even know I was booking it, but I booked it."

"我要去日本。

"I'm going to Japan.

只剩一个名额了。"

There's only one spot left."

但这招确实好用。

But it's so good.

它在促使你下单方面特别有效。

It's so effective at getting you to book.

Booking.com，名副其实。

Booking.com, appropriate.

而且这招奏效了，生意做得很好，所以是个好主意。

And it worked, and it's doing great as a business, so good idea.

干得漂亮，各位。

Good stuff, guys.

Airbnb一直以来的理念就是，我们不想变成那样。

Airbnb has always been, we don't want to become that.

我们希望它让人感觉非常舒服，体验很棒，心情愉快。

We want it to feel really nice, to have a great experience, feel good.

所以我觉得这是答案中很重要的一部分，你刚才说的让我意识到，人类的存在是为了引导我们走向想要的世界。

So I think that's a big part of the answer, as you were talking, made me realize is humans are there to guide towards the world we want.

对，而且在某种程度上，你谈到的其实是品味。

Yeah, and to some extent, what you're talking about is taste.

一般般的东西和真正出色的东西之间，差别是很大的。

That there is a big difference between something that's okay and something that's phenomenal.

我觉得这不仅仅是品味的问题。

I think it's even beyond taste.

我觉得这是一种愿景。

I think it's a vision.

就像你的——

It's like what is your-

……你对这件事的愿景是什么？

... vision of where this should be?

因为你可以说，Booking.com的人，他们对某种特定类型有品味。

Because you could say people at Booking.com, they have taste for a specific type.

那是一种不同的品味。

It's like a different kind of taste.

对，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

但就像，是啊，你想要什么？

But it's like, yeah, what do you want?

你希望它成为什么样子，而不是……

What do you want this to be versus-

你希望世界变成什么样？

What do you want the world to look like?

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.