The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group

想法本身微不足道。

The idea is minor.

想法只是个开始。

The idea is just the start.

我觉得他说过，从一个想法变成实际产品，整个过程就像一门手艺。

I think he said, you know, it is like the whole craftsmanship of going from an idea to a product.

这其实就是我们说的产品探索。

This is what we call product discovery.

他是在描述产品探索，以及每次迭代时事情如何不断变化。

He was describing product discovery and how things change constantly with every iteration.

你得做取舍。

You make trade offs.

一开始是这么个方向。

It starts off one way.

最后却变成了完全不一样的样子。

It ends up another way.

当然了，他指出，大多数高管根本不懂，也完全体会不到，真正做出好产品其实是这么个过程。

And of course, he's pointing out that most of these, you know, executives have no idea, no appreciation for that's actually how you get a great product.

不是说一群高管关起门来列个功能优先级清单，然后直接丢给团队去干完事。

It's not that a bunch of executives go in a room and they come up with their prioritized list of features, and then they just tell the teams to build them.

事实上，我们现在都知道，这些想法里头，只有大概20%能带来正向回报。

In fact, we know at this point, only about 20% of those things will generate any kind of positive return.

按理说，证据这么明显，他们早该明白这招行不通了，但我觉得这背后更多是傲慢——每个高管都觉得自个儿比别人聪明，自己的点子才最牛。

So you'd think there's enough evidence out there that they would realize that was fatal, but I think it's a lot of arrogance because every executive thinks they're smarter than every other one, and so theirs are the better ideas.

但现实根本不是这么回事。

But it's really not that way.

我的意思是，真正厉害的产品团队和公司都明白，一个想法顶多就是眼里闪的一道光。

I mean, good product teams and good product companies know that an idea is just sort of the the very sparkle in the eye.

这仅仅是个开始。

It's just the start.

真正要紧的是怎么把想法变成产品，那才是真功夫。

Getting to a product is what matters, and that's work.

这正好说到我想问的一个问题，有时候创始人或领导会觉得：‘我就知道该做什么产品。’

This touches on a question I definitely wanted to ask, which is sometimes founders or leaders think they're like, I just know what to build.

干嘛还搞这么麻烦？

Why do we need to go through this whole thing?

直接把这东西做出来不就行了？

Just, like, just build this thing.

我特别有信心，这绝对是正确答案。

I'm very confident this is the answer.

你刚才说的，恰恰就是这个问题的关键原因。

And what you talked about just now is a big reason for that.

对吧？

Right?

很多时候你其实并不知道，但你觉得自己知道。

Is a lot of times you you don't, and you think you do.

真正神奇的地方，恰恰是在打造、迭代、学习、和客户交流的过程中。

And a lot of the magic happens in that process of building, iterating, learning, talking to customers.

你是这么看的吗？

Is that is that how you see it?

没错。

Absolutely.

而且产品团队经常会不小心踩进一个坑，就是我们说的‘探索’，其实分两种。

And there is one sort of danger zone that a lot of product teams inadvertently fall into there, which is, you know, when we talk about discovery, technically, there's two kinds of discovery.

对吧？

Right?

一种是找到该解决的问题，另一种是找到用户愿意买单的解决方案。

There's there's discovering the problem to solve that you should focus on and discovering the solution that you're gonna deliver that people would buy.

很多产品团队觉得，问题本身是创始人很清楚的。

And a lot of product teams, the founder knows the problem.

实际上，公司里很多人都知道这个问题。

In fact, most of the company knows the problem.

但很多时候，产品团队还是会认为，哪怕问题已经很清楚了，也得花上几周甚至几个月去验证，确认真有这么多人遇到这问题，而且真理解这问题。

But a lot of times, a product team thinks that they're supposed to, even if, you know, they're confident on the problem that they're supposed to go through these some number of weeks or months of problem validation, you know, making sure that people really have that problem, enough of them have that problem, they understand that problem.

在理想情况下，没有限制的话，这根本不是问题。

And you know, in an ideal world with no constraints, not really a problem.

但在现实里，时间可不等人。

But in the real world, the clock is ticking.

如果你花两周时间去验证创始人早就知道的事，那创始人这时候肯定早就不耐烦了——你连解决方案都没开始碰。

And if you use, say, two weeks of just verifying the same thing the founder already knew, that founder is probably very frustrated at this point because you haven't even got to work on the solution.

人们不是买问题，他们是买你的解决方案。

And people don't buy the problem, they buy your solution.

当然，如果解决的不是他们关心的事，谁也不会买账，但市面上很多产品其实都在解决他们关心的问题。

Obviously, don't buy it if it's not solving something they care about, but there are many products that are solving what they care about.

关键在于，你是不是比别人做得更好，好到让他们选你？

The real question is, do you solve it better than everybody else so that they buy you?

这才是你真正该花时间去搞清楚的。

And that's where you need to take time.

所以，这正是我平时给团队做指导的重点。

So this is more like the coaching I give the teams.

我跟他们说，听着。

I I tell them, look.

小心点。

Be careful.

如果真得花点时间搞清楚问题，那没问题，但别耗太久，你得把大部分时间留出来，去打造那个能赢的解决方案。

If you need to spend a little time on the problem, fine, but don't spend a lot of time because you need to save as much time as possible to come up with the winning solution.

顺便提一句，咱们刚才聊到乔布斯，他讲的那些脑子里要装五千件事，其实说的就是解决方案的探索过程。

And it's worth pointing out since we were talking about Steve Jobs, he was all about that was solution discovery when he was describing the sort of 5,000 things you'd keep in your head.

这说的正是解决方案的探索。

That's this solution discovery.

这点特别关键。

So that's important.

产品团队得明白，成败就看这一关。

Product teams need to know that that's where they will either succeed or fail.

我知道，这个观点对你来说特别重要——就是说，产品经理被教导说，他们的任务是搞清楚‘做什么’，而不是‘怎么做’。

I know that I know this point is really important to you, this idea that PMs are taught that their job is to figure out the the what and not the how.

为了再强调一下，你其实特别反对这种说法，不对。

And just to reinforce this point, you're you're a big fan of, no.

这完全错了。

That's completely wrong.

产品经理对‘怎么做’也负有重大责任。

PMs are very responsible for the the how also.

这话总让我想笑，我一直在想，如果这真是我唯一的工作，我得每周干多少小时？

That one always makes me laugh because I was thinking, do you know how how many hours a week I'd need to work if that was my only job?

光是‘知道’的话，我每周花十五分钟就够了。

Just to you know, and probably I'd phone it in fifteen minutes a week.

搞定。

I'm done.

我的任务完成了。

I did my part.

这太荒谬了。

This is ridiculous.

当然了，这又漏掉了，你只要再深想一层就明白了。

And of course, it misses again, all you have to do is think through it a little deeper.

你想搞出个成功的产品，其实市面上有好几种评估维度。

When you're trying to come up with a successful solution I mean, are different taxonomies out there.

我用的是这四个：要有价值、好用、做得到、能赚钱。

The one I use is it's gotta be valuable, usable, feasible, viable.

但大多数产品都撑不住这四条。

But most products fit.

这些才是真正的风险点。

Those are the risks.

名字可以叫得不一样，但说的都是这些风险。

You can call them different things, but those are the risks.

产品经理的责任，就是确保这个方案既有价值又可持续。

And the product manager is responsible for making sure that the solution is valuable and viable.

这事儿可不容易。

And that is hard.

这真不容易。

That is hard.

这得真下功夫，而这正是‘怎么做’的一部分。

That takes real work, and that's part of the how.

这同样是‘怎么做’里特别关键的一环。

That's a pretty damn integral part of the how as well.

你不会去教工程师怎么写代码。

Now you don't tell the engineers how to code.

你也不会去教设计师怎么设计，但你确实扮演着重要角色。

You don't tell the designer how to design, but you do have a big part.

我们所有人一起，共同打造出这个‘怎么做’。

All of us together are coming out with that how.

所以‘怎么做’就是所有这些环节怎么协同运作。

So the how is how it all works.

当然，怎么通过隐私和安全问题实现盈利，怎么推向市场，这些都属于‘怎么做’，但它们是产品经理的职责。

And obviously, how you monetize privacy issues, security issues, how it's gonna go to market, these are all how, but they're product responsibilities, product management responsibilities.

它们并不比设计师或工程师做的工作更重要或更不重要，因为这四个风险里只要有一个没做好，产品就彻底失败了。

They're not they're not more or less important than what the designer or engineer does because all four of those risks, if any one of them fails, you've got a failure of a product.

这些全是基本门槛。

So those are table stakes.

所以我一听人说‘你只要讲清楚为什么就行’，就忍不住笑，太肤浅了，完全不懂行。

And that's why I laugh when I hear people say, oh, you just have to say the why.

这种说法简直外行到家了。

It's so trivial, and it's and it's just so uninformed.

我真的搞不懂这些说法是从哪儿冒出来的。

I just don't know where the origin is for all that stuff.

这让我想到，男人们老爱开玩笑说，真想在活动上穿点有个性的衣服。

Makes me think about men always joke that they're like, oh, I wanna wear something more interesting to events.

我呢，永远就一套西装。

Like, I always wear a suit.

非得是西装不可。

It's always gotta be a suit.

太无聊了。

It's so boring.

别人还说：别说了。

And other folks are like, shut up.

干嘛非得让男人穿衣打扮搞得这么复杂啊？

It's so like, why would you wanna complicate the life of of men and having to dress in work creatively?

西装不是挺好的吗？

Like, we got a good thing going with suits.

这就让我想，产品经理的职责是不是就是找问题？

And it makes me think about if the jobs of a PM are just to find the problems.

行吧。

Like, alright.

就当是这么回事吧。

Let's let's let's go with that.

生活挺好的。

Life's good.

结果发现并不是这样。

And turns out it's not.

哦。

Oh.

对啊。

Yeah.

Anyway，你刚才提到的那一点让我想起帕特里克·科利森或者约翰·科利森最近发的一条推文，他说很多人以为用户研究就是直接告诉你该做啥。

Anyway, your your last point also made me think about this recent tweet by, I think it was Patrick Collison or John Collison, about how a lot of people think user research it's kinda like user research informs exactly what you or informs what you built.

大家就是这么想的。

That's how people think about it.

好像用户研究直接决定了你要做啥。

It's like user research leads to what you built.

但他有个特别有意思的观点：用户研究其实帮你建立对用户和客户的理解模型，而这个模型才该指导你做产品。

And his point is really interesting that research user research informs your model of the user and the customer, and that model should inform what you build.

你得不断优化这个模型，心里得有个清晰的用户画像，而不是每次都指望用户研究来给你所有答案。

And you're all constantly trying to refine this model, but you should have a model of your customer and your user in your head that you come back to versus, like, relying user research to answer all your questions.

你对这个观点怎么看？

What's your take on on that perspective?

对。

Yeah.

首先，Stripe 做得真的太棒了。

I mean, first of all, what they've done with Stripe is so awesome.

这又是另一个绝佳的例子，我很欣赏他们从优秀公司那里挑挑拣拣，打造出自己的文化。

And I it's another great example, and I I love what they, you know, sort of picked and choose from great companies to create a culture for themselves.

我完全同意，但我还想再深入一点，因为用户研究这个话题真的特别重要。

So I'd absolutely agree, but I'd go a little further because user research is a great topic.

就拿这个来说吧。

I mean, right there.

这可是个特别棒的产品议题。

It's a great product topic.

我超喜欢这个。

I love it.

我超爱用户研究这事儿。

I'm a big fanboy of user research.

你刚不也听我说了，我其实一直在讲同样的观点。

Well, you just heard me basically arguing the same thing.

别光顾着跑出去验证问题，咱们心里都清楚，这事儿没那么重要。

Don't be going out there spending all your time just validating the problem, especially when we know.

他也是这么说的。

He's he's saying that too.

他在强调要建立对用户的认知模型，这真的特别关键。

He's trying to talk about being building the mental model of our users, which is so important.

好产品啊，本质上都是靠这个撑起来的。

This is, you know, well designed products are feed off of that.

不过呢，用户研究里还有另一层东西，我觉得更让人糊涂。

However, there's another layer around user research that I find is even a bigger source of confusion.

今早我刚跟一个团队聊过，他们说，用户研究就是拿原型去测试，等足够多用户说喜欢，就立马开干。

In fact, I was just talking to a team, this morning that was saying that, yeah, what they do with user research is they they test their prototypes, and is and and when they get enough of users saying how much they like it, they build it.

我就说：不对。

And I'm like, no.

我们做用户研究可不是为了这个，这种做法也骗不了任何聪明的领导。

That's not why we do user research, and that is not gonna fool any smart leaders.

关键在于——咱们又回到问题发现和方案发现这儿了，但其实我们大部分时间都应该花在方案上，也就是做原型、找用户测试、找客户测试、跟利益相关者测试、甚至跟开发团队一起测试，我们得不停地试。

The main reason and now, again, we're kinda back to the problem discovery, solution discovery, but when we're most of our time needs to be on solution, and that's prototyping, that's testing with users, testing with customers, testing with stakeholders, testing with our developers, we're testing constantly.

我们不是光想知道他们喜不喜欢。

We're not just trying to find out, you know, if they like it.

事实上，恰恰相反。

In fact, it's just the opposite.

做用户研究的时候，我们是要找出他们为什么不喜欢的地方。

It's we're when we're doing user research, we're finding all the reasons they don't like it.

这其实引用了埃隆·马斯克的一句话：做用户研究时，你该专注找他们为什么不会用你的产品。

In fact, that's an Elon Musk quote is when you do user research, you should be focused on finding all the reasons they won't use your product.

虽然埃隆·马斯克现在有些争议，但他做产品确实很在行。

Even though Elon Musk has some issues right now, he's pretty good at product.

所以他在这方面特别在行。

And so he's very good at this.

你就得这么想这个问题。

And that's that's how you wanna think about that.

用户研究员们常会提到生成式研究和评估式研究的区别。

This is often the user researchers will talk about the difference between generative and evaluative user research.

从我们能获得的价值来看，大部分其实都来自评估式研究。

And so most of it, terms of number of, you know, valuable things we get out of it, is evaluative.

他们是在告诉我们，为什么不会用你的产品。

It's they are telling us the reasons they won't use it.

我还想补充一点，你没问，但这事儿经常发生。

The only other thing I'll add to that, you didn't ask about this, but it comes up all the time.

我最讨厌的就是用户研究员自己跑去搞研究，然后拿份报告回来完事。

I hate it when the user researchers go off and do the research themselves and bring back a report.

不是因为他们不懂行。

Not because they don't know what they're doing.

他们其实很清楚自己在做什么。

They do know what they're doing.

问题在于，报告经常被无视。

The reason is because the report is too often ignored.

所以我的原则是——我跟所有我辅导的公司里的用户研究员都这么说：如果产品经理和设计师没空参加你的产品测试，那就干脆别做了。

And so to me, the rule is, and I tell this to user researchers at the companies that I coach, if the product manager and the designer are not available to be there during your product their product's test, cancel the test.

他们必须亲自到场。

They need to be there.

这才是他们对团队真正有价值的地方。

This is what makes them useful to their team.

我完全同意。

I 100% agree.

我有个记忆特别深的经历，当时带着我们研究团队、工程负责人和设计负责人一起去巴黎，和Airbnb的房东们做焦点小组访谈。

I I have this memory of going to Paris with our research team or head of eng head of design on our team at least, and I and the and the researcher all went to Paris to do these, like, focus groups with with Airbnb hosts.

我们的研究员特别坚持要我们一起去，说不能光她一个人去，然后带一堆洞察回来。

And our researcher was very adamant that we come with her, that it's not just her coming back with tons of insights.

所以，这中间的价值是百分百存在的。

And so, 100% find value there.

尤其是工程师能参与这个过程，我觉得特别关键。

And, and engineers, especially being involved in that process, I find to be super important.

真正的魔法就发生在这时候。

That's when the magic happens.

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我想再回过头聊聊功能团队这个事儿——如果你们公司现在还是那种功能工厂式的团队，员工具体能做点啥？哪怕公司整体不打算转型，也能更好地理解用户体验，或者让自己干得更顺手？

I wanna come back to this idea of feature teams and just what folks specifically, what what can people do when they're working at what you'd call a feature team or feature factory to either understand what the experience could be like or just work in a better way even if their company's not shifting to a a new way of building product broadly?

当然可以。

Sure.

其实很多公司都在有意识地往真正的产品团队转型。

Well, you know, a lot of companies are intentionally trying to change to to real product teams.

这正是大家常说的‘转型’到底指的是啥。

This is what most people mean by a transformation.

确实有不少公司已经在这么做了。

So a lot of them are.

但就算你公司没打算改，我也总劝人——很多人问我：‘我是不是该辞职，去找个真正做产品的公司？’

But even if they're not, I always encourage, you know and a lot of people will ask me, should I just give up on this company and go to a decent product company?

我总是说：别急着走，先试着做一次小实验。

And I always say, before you give up, just give this one shy try.

我建议你去找你的经理，跟他说：

And I suggest you go to your manager and say, look.

你觉得咱们要不要做个试验？

What do you think about us doing an experiment?

接下来一两个季度，能不能让我们按这种方式试试看？

For the next quarter or two, why don't you let us try running like this?

要是效果不错，那就再好不过了。

And if it goes well, great.

要是不行，也没什么损失。

If it doesn't, no harm.

你知道的，我们就 revert 回以前的做法就行。

You know, we'll just go back to the way we were.

所以，在一个产品团队里试点，其实没那么难。

So it's not that hard to try it on a product team by product team basis.

真正花钱又冒险的，是整个业务单元一起改。

Where it gets expensive and risky, of course, is changing the whole business units.

如果是单个产品团队，通常他们都会允许试试，尤其是当提出这个建议的人说：‘我注意到，我们佩服的那些公司，根本不是像我们这样干的，也许我们也该试试？’

So if it's just a product team, usually, they'll let them try, especially if the the person making this argument says, you know, I've learned that the some of the companies we admire are not working the way we are, and maybe we should try this.

说到这个，我想问一下，他们到底试了些什么？

Just while we're on that topic, what is it they they try or do?

团队具体能做哪些事呢？

What are some of the things that a team could do?

我知道你可能马上就要讲到这个了，但我还是挺好奇的。

I know you'll you might have got you might be getting into this, but I'm curious.

这正好就是我想说的。

That's exactly, though, what I was gonna suggest.

所以假设他们点头同意了。

So so let's say they're given thumbs up.

那就放手去干吧。

Go for it.

给你一笔预算，去试试看。

Give you a quarter.

放手去干吧。

Go for it.

咱们看看效果怎么样。

We'll see what it's like.

我知道，大家其实都挺好奇的。

I've been, you know, people are curious.

我觉得有几件事你得先做起来。

So to me, there's a few things that you wanna do.

首先，你得确保——经理能帮上大忙，但产品团队自己也得学会向上沟通，争取支持。

First of all, you wanna make sure, and the manager can help a lot, but the product team could help, you know, manage up enough to do this.

首先，你得确保团队是在解决一个问题，而不是单纯去实现某个功能。

The first is you need to make sure the team has a problem to solve rather than the feature to build.

其实倒推回去并不难。

Now it's not that hard to reverse engineer.

如果有人跟你说，赶紧在我们电商网站上上线‘先买后付’功能，这种需求现在满大街都是。

So if somebody tells you, you gotta go implement buy now, pay later on our ecommerce site, which is like on a thousand roadmaps right now.

对吧？

Right?

要是有人这么跟你说，你完全可以去找提出这个需求的人，说：‘我们这就开始做，不过你能说说，你们怎么衡量这个功能是不是成功吗？’

If somebody tells you that, it's not that hard to go to the stakeholder that requested that and say, you know, we're gonna get to work on that, but can you tell me, like, how are you measuring success?

我们想确保，我们做的东西，你们真觉得是成功的。

We wanna make sure that what we do, you consider it successful.

你们到底怎么判断它成功了？

How are you measuring success?

像这种需求，通常答案都挺明显的。

For something like that, it's usually pretty obvious.

就是转化率啊、平均购物车金额之类的。

It's like conversion rate or or average shopping cart value or whatever.

无非就是些他们在意的关键指标。

It's just some KPIs that they care about.

所以你就说，行吧。

So you'd say, alright.

你觉得只要加上‘先买后付’，就能让更多人下单交易，最终这些数据会证明这事儿值了，对吧？

You're under your your belief is that if we add buy now, pay later, a lot more people will be able to buy and transact, and so it's gonna pay off and it'll show here.

我理解得对吗？

Do I have that right?

他们大概会说，对。

And they'll probably say yes.

也可能会说，不对。

And they might say, well, no.

我们这么做是为了拓展国际市场，或者别的原因。

We're doing it for international purposes or some other thing.

明白了。

Good to know.

别忘了把具体情况都记下来。

Make sure you capture whatever it is.

所以第一点就是这个。

So that's the first thing.

你们到底想解决什么问题？

What problem are you trying to solve?

最难的部分呢，就像我说的，通常设计师和工程师都特别乐意做他们受过训练该做的事。

Now the the hardest part is, like I said, usually we have a designer and engineers that are very up for really doing what they were born to, you know, trained to do.

但产品经理往往得自己多下点功夫，才能胜任这个角色。

But the product manager usually needs to do some work to get themselves to be able to do this.

我特别讨厌那种把产品负责人和产品经理分开的公司，因为产品负责人根本就是个行政岗位。

Because a typical you know, I I hate the idea of those companies that have separate product owners because product owner is just an administrative role.

产品负责人几乎都不具备当产品经理的能力。

Product owners almost never have the skills to be a product manager.

这本身就是一个问题。

And so that's a problem.

假设真有个产品经理，但从来没人指导过他，结果他啥也不懂。

But let's just say there's a product manager and nobody's ever coached this poor person, And so they really don't know much.

所以这个产品经理第一件事，就是得把自己准备好，真正为团队做出贡献。

So the first thing that product manager needs to do is get themselves prepared to contribute to their team the way they need to.

一般来说，这事儿分四步。

In general, that means four things.

首先，得真正了解用户和客户。

First of all, they have to really get to know the users and customers.

你得让人觉得，你就是最懂用户和客户的人。

They have to be considered pretty much one of the experts on the users and customers.

我当初当工程师想转产品经理时，带我的人明确说：你没见够30个客户之前，不准替团队做任何决定。

I remember when I was an engineer wanting to become a product manager, the person coaching me said explicitly that I was not allowed to make any decisions for the team until after I visited 30 customers.

他定的数字就是30。

His number was 30.

美国15个，欧洲15个。

15 in The US, 15 in Europe.

他安排了一次为期三周的出差，这才解决了问题。

And it was a three week business trip that he arranged that fixed that.

说实话，我那时候觉得根本不用去见客户，毕竟我以前是开发，做的产品本来就是给开发者用的。

And the funny thing was I didn't think I needed to visit customers because I was a developer before the and I was building products for developers.

我心想：天啊。

I'm like, oh, man.

我觉得我最拿手的就是懂我们的客户。

That's the one thing I've got is I know our customer.

他却说：我敢肯定，你这种想法从来都不靠谱。

And he said, well, all I know for sure is that's never true.

所以我只好去见客户了。

And so I had to go visit customers.

不过，不管怎样，这第一点很重要。

But anyway, that's the first thing.

第二点，你得对数据了如指掌。

The second thing is they have to be an expert in the data.

你的产品是怎么被用的？

How is your product used?

这些用法随着时间有什么变化？

How has that changed over time?

销售数据怎么样？

What's the sales analytics?

用户行为数据呢？

What's the user analytics?

你得清楚产品到底怎么被用的——这其实也是了解客户，但特别关键。

So you have to know how your product is actually used, which is just another way of knowing your customer, but important.

第三点，通常也是最难的，而且利益相关者最会拿这个来评判你：你得搞懂业务的各个部分。

The third thing is, and this is usually the hardest one, and it's the one that your stakeholders will judge you on, is you have to learn the different parts of the business.

你得知道产品是怎么推广的、怎么卖的、怎么收费的、怎么赚钱的。

You have to know how it's marketed, how it's sold, how it's paid for, how it monetizes.

如果有任何合规、监管、隐私或安全方面的问题，你得清楚这些到底是什么，还得让相关方相信你懂这些问题，知道该关注什么，并且让他们放心——万一有疑问，你都能拿出一个原型给他们看，确认一切没问题。

If there are any compliance, regulatory, privacy, security issues, You need to know what those are so that you have to convince those stakeholders that you understand what the issues are and you understand what to look for and that you convince them that if if there's ever any question, you will bring them a prototype that they can see and make sure it's okay.

所以，你得在业务的各个部门之间建立起这种信任。

So you need that trust with the different parts of the business.

第四个领域是，你得了解竞争对手的情况。

And the fourth area is you have to know the competitive landscape.

你得熟悉这个行业。

You have to know the industry.

你得掌握最新的趋势。

You have to know the trends.

我觉得这一块还挺有意思的。

I consider this one of the fun ones.

网上有不少业内值得关注的大神。

There's some good industry people to follow.

这事儿你完全可以做。

You can do that.

所以，这四点就是你带给团队的东西。

So those are the four things you you bring to the team.

你要明白，设计师并不掌握这些信息。

Realize the designer doesn't have this info.

工程师们也不了解这些情况。

The engineers don't have this info.

如果团队想真正自主，想自己提出解决方案，那就必须有人把这方面的知识带进来——而这个人，就是你，产品经理。

If the team is gonna be an empowered team and they're gonna come up with solutions, they need somebody on the team that brings this knowledge, and that is you as product manager.

这也是自主型团队最容易栽跟头的地方。

That is the single biggest area empowered teams fall down.

产品经理要么没准备好，说得直白点，就是能力不够。

The product manager is ill equipped or a nice way of saying incompetent.

明白了。

Alright.

第三，如果团队要自己做决策，他们就需要战略背景。

Third, if the team is now gonna make decisions, they need the strategic context.

换句话说，他们得知道整个大局。

In other words, they need to know the big picture.

产品的愿景是什么？

What's the product vision?

产品的策略是什么？

What's the product strategy?

其他团队都在干嘛？

What are other teams doing?

这跟我们做的事有啥关系？

How does that relate to what we're doing?

这就是战略背景。

That's the strategic context.

通常我们从上级那儿获取这些信息，但至少产品经理得自己去搞清楚，尤其是产品策略这块。

So normally, we get that from our leaders, but at the minimum, the product manager's gonna have to go learn what that is, especially the product strategy.

明白了。

Alright.

最后，产品团队还得掌握那些调研技能和方法——说实话，这最让我着迷。

And then finally, the product teams need the skills, discovery skills and techniques, which to me is the fun part.

我写《Inspired》这本书，就是想把最主流的那些方法分享出来。

You know, that's why I wrote the book Inspired was to share the most popular techniques.

当然也有别的书讲这些调研技巧，但你真得去读点什么，把方法学明白。

There are other books too that talk about those techniques for discovery, but, you know, read something, learn the techniques.

现在有好多好用的方法，比以往任何时候都强多了。

There are good techniques today, better techniques than we've ever had.

我们做产品调研其实已经干了挺长时间了。

I mean, we've been doing product discovery for a very long time.

其实1995年乔布斯就总结得挺到位，但现在的技术手段，跟我刚入行那会儿比，跟乔布斯当年说的比，简直是天壤之别。

In fact, Steve Jobs in '95 did a really good summary of it, but the techniques today are dramatically better than what they were when I first learned and what he was talking about, dramatically better.

所以啊，你真得去学这些方法。

So, you know, you need to learn the techniques.

这可是产品经理的看家本领。

That's the tools of the trade for a product manager.

所以说到你的问题，你们现在是个功能团队。

So to your question, you're a feature team.

想不想试试转型，真正做个产品团队？

You wanna become a you know, wanna give it a shot, be in a real product team?

下面这四件事，你们就得去动手做。

These are the four things you need to go out and do.

不过说真的，这些事儿花不了多少时间。

And they just to be fair, they don't take long.

最费时间的是产品经理得去学这些技能——要是以前从来没接触过的话。

The longest one is the product manager learning, you know, those skills if they've never learned them before.

但就算这个，一般也就两三个月的事儿。

But even that typically takes two to three months.

天哪。

Wow.

这真是一针见血。

That was incredibly insightful.

我想知道，产品经理要是想这么试一把，该怎么给自己创造成功的条件？我觉得这简直是一场高风险的实验。

I'm curious how a PM could set themselves up for success trying like this trying something like this because I feel like it's a high stakes experiment.

要是搞砸了，公司肯定得说：‘完了，这下糟了。’

If it doesn't work, the company would be, oh, no.

这太坑了。

This sucks.

根本行不通。

Doesn't work.

咱们别干这事儿了。

We're not gonna do this.

这种事真挺常见的。

That happens.

你刚才提到，

You mentioned yeah.

你说了好多能做的事，还特别提了《Inspired》这本书。

You mentioned a lot of things people can do, and then you mentioned reading Inspired.

除了这些，还有没有其他能帮人在大公司里做这类实验时更容易成功的做法？

Is there anything else just, like, things that would set people up for success in one of these experiments within their larger company?

说到这个，特别推荐特蕾莎·托雷斯的新书《持续发现习惯》。

Well, in particular about what we're talking about now, Theresa Torres' new book, Continuous Discovery Habits.

这本书真的特别棒。

That's a very good book.

讲得特别到位。

It's right on point.

它详细讲了这些技能，基本上会手把手带你度过最初的几周。

Talks very much about these skills and you know, it's a it will basically hold your hand through those first weeks.

另一本不错的书是《Sprint》，杰克·纳普写的。

Another good book is Sprint, you know, Jake Knapp's book.

这本书也会手把手教你。

That also will hold your hand.

虽然它用四百页讲一个方法，有点专，但确实很实用。

Now that's a particular technique to hold 400 pages on one technique, but it is a good technique.

这些书也会手把手带你走过这段路。

Those will hold your hands through it as well.

另外，如果你能找到人指导你、带你一把，那效果最好——我就是这么学的。

The other thing is you can go out, if you can find somebody who can coach or mentor you, I mean, that's how I learned it.

我也是。

Same.

我认识的大多数人都是这样学的，他们有个真心关心他们职业发展的经理，直接跟他们说：你得这么干。

That's how most people I know learned it is they had a, you know, they had a manager that gave a shit about their career, and they were like, this is what you need to do.

我刚接触发现式方法的时候，还是个工程师，后来升成了技术负责人。

I remember when I first learned about the discovery concepts, I was I was an engineer, and then I I was I was I had been promoted to tech lead.

我经理跟我说：你现在是技术负责人了，得跟关心你做了什么一样关心你怎么做的。

And my manager said, you know, now that you're tech lead, you have to care as much about what you build is how you build it.

他还说，这意味着你得开始做以前当工程师时从不碰的事。

And and he said, that means you have to get involved in things you were never doing before as an engineer.

我当工程师好几年了，一路慢慢往上爬。

I had been an engineer for several years, sort of working my way up the little ladder.

我觉得这特别有意思。

And I thought that was super interesting.

事实上，那可是我第一次接触产品，就是我们现在说的‘需求探索’。

In fact, that was my first taste of product because I started what we call discovery today.

我开始主动参与进去。

I started getting involved.

我开始跑去见客户。

I started going out to customers.

我开始了解这些问题。

I started learning these problems.

所以啊，我要是能改变行业里的一件事，那就是希望每个人都能遇到一个真心关心你职业发展的好领导，帮你把工作做得更好。

So, yeah, it's I wish more you know, if I could change one thing in the industry, it would be we would all everybody would have a decent manager that cared about their career and could help them get better at their job.

那我们该怎么实现这一点呢？

How we how do we make that possible?

你知道吗，有时候我容易有点愤世嫉俗，觉得这么多年了，世界也没怎么变。

You know, one thing, because sometimes I have a tendency to be kind of cynical, you know, when it's the world has changed so little over the years.

不过最近我特别开心，现在我知道原因了。

But I have been very happy lately if now I know what caused this.

这都是因为大辞职潮造成的，但微软、谷歌、奈飞、苹果的高管们都在吹嘘他们多重视辅导。

It's the great resignation that's caused this, but executives at Microsoft, Google, Netflix, Apple, they've all been bragging about how much they care about coaching.

你注意到没？

Did you notice that?

我的意思是，谷歌的桑达尔就一直说，他们选领导最看重的一点是——

I mean, literally, Sundar at Google has been saying that the number one thing they look for in their leaders is Mhmm.

会当教练。

A good coach.

第二点是，不微观管理，懂得怎么赋能团队。

The number two thing is that they're not a micromanager and they know how to empower their teams.

而微软呢，他们也在大力宣传领导力的三大原则。

But at Microsoft, they are looking at they have three principles for their leaders, their managers that they've been advertising.

第一条，就是辅导。

Number one, coaching.

第二点，要有关怀。

Number two, caring.

第三点是什么我给忘了。

I forget what number three is.

然后苹果公司给领导者定了四项主要职责。

And then, at Apple, they have four big responsibilities for their leaders.

coaching 是其中之一。

Coaching is one of them.

所以他们都比以前更频繁地提到这一点。

So they've all been more vocal about this.

当然，这可不是偶然。

Now, of course, this is not an accident.

他们其实早就重视 coaching 了，通常是因为比尔·坎贝尔影响了这些公司。

They've been caring about coaching for a long time, usually because Bill Campbell impacted the companies.

他们一直重视 coaching，但现在说得更多了。

But they care about coaching, but now they're talking about it a lot more.

他们其实就是在说：来我们这儿工作吧。

They're essentially saying, come work here.

我们很在乎你的成长和职业发展。

We care about developing you and your career.

对。

Yeah.

我知道你教教练。

I know that you you teach coaches.

你不是最近刚办了个会，专门教教练怎么当教练吗？

You you have you have a conference, I think, recently where you're coaching coaches.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

是的。

Yeah.

倒也不算正式的大会。

Not so much a conferences.

说实话，我们的问题是，SVPG太小了。

You know, our problem is you know, I mean, SVPG, we're very small.

我们总共就五个人，排期都排到快一年后了。

We're we're just five people, and we've been we're booked out for nearly a year.

所以老有人问我们：你们能推荐谁？

So there's very we are always asked, who can we recommend?

但说实话，我们认识的、能靠谱推荐的人真不多。

And the truth is we don't have that many people that we know and can recommend.

做功能团队的人多了去了，但找我们的人，都是想把公司做成顶尖的产品型团队。

I mean, there's a lot of people that do feature team stuff, but the people that ask us are because they wanna become like a great product company.

所以真正符合的，我们认识的没几个。

And so we don't know that many.

所以我们决定在欧洲和美国各办一场活动，邀请一些独立教练来参加。

We've decided to do a session in Europe and a session in The US where we invite people that are independent coaches.

我们不收他们任何费用。

We don't charge them anything.

这其实就是个认识他们、顺便帮帮他们的办法。

This is just a way to get to know them and hopefully help them.

几个月前我们在伦敦办过一次，今年十二月打算在纽约再办一场。

So we did that in London a couple months ago, and we're gonna do it in New York in December.

我最常被问到的问题之一，就是该去哪儿找教练，谁才是靠谱的教练。

That's definitely one of the most common questions I get is how do I where do I find a coach?

谁是好教练？

Who's a good coach?

我特别欣赏你们在培养更多教练，还帮他们提升水平。

And so I really love that you're you're creating more coaches and helping coaches get better.

说到这个，我想问问，你觉得产品管理这个角色现在正在怎么变化？

Along this that same line a little bit, how do you think the role of product management is is changing and evolving?

这个问题嘛，得看两方面说。

This is this is one of those sort of two fork answers.

在靠谱的公司里，其实根本没怎么变。

At good companies, it really hasn't changed much at all.

我的意思是，二十多年了。

And I mean, for more than twenty years.

在靠谱的产品公司里，这事儿真没怎么变。

It really hasn't changed at good product companies.

他们用的方法倒是改了不少，但这份工作本身、那些基本原则，一点没变。

Now the techniques they use have changed in some dramatic ways, but the job, the principles hasn't.

但你要从整个行业来看，那真是乱成一锅粥。

However, if you look more holistically at the industry, what a cluster.

简直一团糟。

What a mess.

你看，现在跟产品相关的头衔多得离谱，大部分都名不副实。

Look at you know, there's so many different product related titles, most of which are ridiculous.

最让我抓狂的是在欧洲到处都是‘产品负责人’这头衔。

The two that really drive me nuts are all over Europe, you find you know, you find product owners.

这些‘产品负责人’居然还由敏捷教练来培训，而那些教练自己压根没干过一天产品。

And those product owners are taught by agile coaches, most of which have never done product for a day in their life.

他们只会讲流程。

All they know is process.

所以他们教的全是流程。

So they're teaching a process.

这简直荒唐，就像随便拉个人说，我教你Scrum，你立马就能当工程师了。

It's as ridiculous as taking somebody off the street and saying, I'm gonna teach you scrum, and then you're gonna all of a sudden be an engineer.

这有多离谱啊？

How ridiculous is that?

Scrum教不了你怎么做开发，就像产品负责人培训课也教不会你怎么做产品经理。

Scrum doesn't teach you how to develop just like a product owner course doesn't teach you how to be a product manager.

结果就是盲人带盲人，我们从未有过这么多完全不合格的产品人员。

So the result is inadvertently the blind leading the blind, and we have never had such a high proportion of completely unqualified product people.

当然在美国，这种情况没那么严重。

And of course in The US, we don't that's not as big a problem in The US.

东海岸比西海岸问题多一点，但也没到特别严重的地步。

It is a problem more on the East Coast than the West, but it's not as big a problem.

我们其实还有别的事在搞，你知道的，市面上也有一些做得特别好的产品运营实践和定义。

We have other things going on sort of you know, there are some very good implementations and definitions of product ops out there.

但也有不少烂摊子，这些反而造成了同样的问题。

There's also some really bad ones, and those are causing the same problem.

我常跟人说，别管那些乱七八糟的头衔和术语了。

You know, one of the things I try to tell forget all these stupid roles and terms and all this.

真正对产品经理来说，有三件事是铁律。

There's really three things that are sacred for a product manager.

别的我都可以灵活处理，但这三条绝对不能碰，因为它们直接关系到你能不能把这活儿干好。

And I don't really I'm very flexible on everything else, but these three are sacred because they're right at the heart of what it takes to succeed at the job.

第一条，产品经理必须能自由地接触用户和客户，不能有任何阻碍。

The first is that that product manager needs unencumbered access to their users and customers.

谁要是挡在产品经理和客户中间，那根本不是帮忙，是添乱。

Anybody that tries to get in between of them and their customers is not helping.

虽然这些人往往好心好意，总说‘我负责客户成功，这该我来’，或者‘我搞销售的，我来对接’——不对，别这样。

Even though they're often well intentioned people, they say, oh, it's my job in customer success to do that or my job in sales or no.

你要是被挡在客户外面，那当产品经理你就完蛋了。

That is like you get cut off from your customers, you're screwed as a product manager.

第二，产品经理必须能自由地接触工程师。

Second, product manager needs unencumbered access to the engineers.

你要是不天天跟一群工程师一起解决问题，那你根本算不上产品经理。

There's a you know, if you're not working every day with a set of engineers on solving problems, you are not a product manager.

总有一些好心人，什么产品负责人、项目经理，各种头衔，觉得自己该当开发者和产品经理之间的中间人。

So, you know, again, there's these helpful people called product owners or project managers or all kinds of different variations where they think their job is to interface with the developers and to play sort of a mediator role.

他们不明白为啥自己好几年都没做出什么创新。

And they don't understand why they haven't innovated for years.

就是因为这些人把这关键的一环给切断了。

That's why they cut that critical thing.

第三，产品经理还得能自由接触所有利益相关方。

And then the third is unencumbered access to the stakeholders.

因为好产品解决的，是当下刚刚可能实现的问题。

Because a good product is solving what's just now possible.

所以工程师才这么关键。

That's why the engineers are so critical.

真正用户和客户才是核心，这也就是为什么接触利益相关者这么重要，得让业务能走得通。

For real users and customers, that's why that's so critical, in ways that work for the business, which is why the stakeholder access is so critical.

只要你能直接接触到这三样东西，这才是最关键的。

If you have those three things, direct access to those three things, That's what's critical.

如果你还有别的职责，那也没办法，只要你愿意拼命加班，也能撑得住。

If you have other responsibilities, well, you know, as long as you're willing to work crazy hours, that can work.

但如果你想过点正常人的日子，那些项目管理、质量保证、产品营销、运维运营之类的活儿，全都可以甩给别人，唯独这三样，千万别放手。

But if you're working, you know, if you wanna have more of a sane life, you can take all this other stuff, project management, quality assurance, product marketing, all this stuff, runtime, production operations, literally, you can pass those to other people, but don't delegate those three things.

我一直在劝那些公司。

I just keep begging companies.

他们压根没意识到，这么干其实是在自毁前程。

You know, they they think they're they don't realize the damage they're creating when they do that.

当然了，他们为啥这么干，其实大家心里都明白。

And of course, why they do it is no secret.

他们说，产品经理这活儿一个人干不了，咱们得拆成两半。

They say, oh, that product manager job is too hard for one person, so we're gonna split it in half.

他们根本不知道这么干会造成多大伤害，可偏偏就这么做了。

And they, you know, it's they have no idea the damage they're creating, but that's what they're doing.

把其他杂活儿分出去，这完全没问题。

So pulling off other responsibilities is no problem.

这事儿挺好的，尤其公司大了之后，但那三样核心事儿，绝对不能碰。

It's a good thing to do, especially as you grow, but never when you touch those three sacred things.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我正想问这个呢，产品经理这职位事儿太多，压力也太大，责任太重了。

I was exactly gonna ask that, that the PM role is so full of things to do and such an intense job with so many responsibilities.

他们的初衷是好的。

And so the intention is good.

把一些活儿从产品经理身上分走。

Take some things off the PM's plate.

特别是产品运营，我确实看到它在慢慢兴起，就像你刚才说的。

Specifically, product ops, I've been seeing grow, as you've said.

我想再深入问问，你觉得这个岗位不太靠谱、方向不对，还是说在某些情况下其实挺有帮助的？

Just to kind of double click on that, is your sense that's not a great role to have and not a productive direction, or or is there times when that's actually helpful?

这就要看情况了，根据我刚才说的，如果你说的产品运营是为了取代那三样核心职责之一——有些定义确实是这样——那就不妙了。

Well, this is where if so from what I just said, if you now talk about product ops, if product ops is created to replace one of those three things, which is some of the common definitions, it's bad.

但如果产品运营的定位是帮我分担一些其他事务，我的理解是，其实产品运营也有很多不错的定义。

If product ops is there to take my favorite def I mean, there's lots of good definitions of product ops too.

不过呢，有些产品，我该说有些业务，确实有很重的线上运维负担。

But, you know, some jobs, some I should say some products have a big runtime responsibility.

比如线上生产问题、排查bug、搞清楚到底出了啥状况，这些都得管。

Runtime production, production issues, triaging bugs, trying to figure out what's going on.

这种事偶尔碰上一点，完全正常。

You know, a little bit of that is totally normal.

对吧？

Right?

每家公司都这样。

Everybody does that in every company.

但有时候事情多到根本没时间去想下一步该做什么了。

But sometimes it becomes so much that there's just no time left for figuring out what should be built next.

天天都在救火。

It's just fighting fires every day.

这个对产品运营的定义挺好的。

That's a good definition of product ops.

另一个好定义是，那些专门为产品经理打造工具、帮他们提高效率的人。

Another good definition are the people who create the tools to help product managers be more productive.

这个定义也很到位。

That's a good definition.

但注意，这些工作并没有取代前面那三件事。

But notice those aren't taking away any of those three things.

但有一种常见的说法是，他们觉得我们收集了太多关于产品如何被客户使用的数据。

But one of the common definitions is they're like, oh, well, we get so much data on how our products are are being used for our customers.

我们专门设了一个产品运营的角色，负责筛选这些数据，然后告诉产品经理他们‘应该’听什么。

We've created a product ops person that's gonna sort through that data, and they'll tell the product manager what they think they should hear.

为了再强调一下，那三件事到底是什么？万一有人没听清楚呢？

Just to reinforce this point, what are the three things again, in case folks didn't catch it all?

对。

Yeah.

直接接触客户、直接接触工程师、直接接触利益相关方。

Direct access to customers, direct access to the engineers, direct access to the stakeholders.

太棒了。

Awesome.

最后一个问题吧，你有没有担心产品管理领域其他正在兴起的趋势，会影响产品经理这个角色的走向？

Maybe a last question is, are there other trends that you're worried about in product management where the role of PM is going?

我确实很担心我刚才说的那两个趋势。

Well, I am very worried about the the two trends I just described.

我一直觉得有个风险一直存在，而且它不会消失——顺便说一句，乔布斯也提到过这一点。

I'd say the thing that has always been a risk, and it's just not going away and by the way, Steve Jobs talked about this.

他提到的另一种病症就是‘流程控’，顺便说一句，产品运营里那些死磕流程的人，就是典型的反面例子。

This was the other disease he talked about, and that's the disease of process people, which by the way is another one of the bad instances of product ops is process people.

说实话，我知道这背后的原因，我也理解，但你知道吗，规模化真的很难。

So, you know, the truth is, and I know where this comes from, I understand it, but, you know, scaling is hard.

你认识谁觉得这不难的吗？

Do you know anybody who doesn't think it's hard?

我没见过。

I do not.

就是难。

It's hard.

从根本上说，规模化只有两种路子。

And fundamentally, there's two ways to scale.

要么靠流程，要么靠领导力。

You can scale with process or you can scale with leaders.

我知道的唯一能带来好结果的方式，就是靠领导力来规模化。

The only way I know that leads to good outcomes is scaling with leaders.

但对很多公司来说，用流程来扩张更容易、也更吸引人。

But the easier, more appealing one to so many companies is scaling with process.

所以你看到像SAFE这样的东西，可能会想：这些人是不是疯了？

And that's why you see like, you might look at something like SAFE and say, are these people freaking crazy?

他们是不是脑子进水了？

Are they nuts?

这里面根本没什么好东西。

There is no good there.

这不就是把瀑布式开发重新包装了一下嘛。

It is just all it's just repackaged waterfall.

他们到底在想什么？

What the hell are they thinking?

其实他们想的是：哎，我们有了解决流程扩张的办法了。

Well, what they're thinking is, oh, we have an answer to scaling with process.

这特别有吸引力，尤其是对那些根本不懂软件的老派CIO来说。

And that is very attractive, especially to some old school CIO that doesn't even understand software.

所以它疯狂地扩张起来。

And so it grows like crazy.

而且你知道，这还不是唯一的例子。

And, you know, that's not the only one.

这类流程多得是，大家都被蒙住了。

There's a bunch of those processes and, you know, people are fooled.

这纯粹就是营销噱头。

It's just marketing.

他们自称是敏捷开发，可跟敏捷一点关系都没有。

So they call themselves agile, but it has nothing to do with agile.

这根本就是敏捷的反面。

It's sort of the antithesis of agile.

所以我特别担心这种以为流程能解决一切的思维，其实根本不行。

So I am very worried about that trend of thinking that process is ever the answer because it's not.

就是不行。

It just isn't.

我认识的所有顶尖领导者，不管是贝索斯、马斯克，还是其他任何人，都是这样。

And all the best leaders I know, whether we're talking Bezos or whether we're talking Elon Musk or, you know, anybody.

史蒂夫·乔布斯在视频里也说过这话。

Steve Steve Jobs was saying it in the video.

要当心‘流程至上’这种病，它会毁了你的公司。

Be careful of the disease of processed people.

这种人一多，公司早晚完蛋。

They will destroy your company.

这收尾简直太绝了。

What an incredible way to wrap up.

最后再问两个问题。

Where just two last questions.

大家想联系你、了解更多，该上哪儿找你？听众又能怎么帮到你？

Where can folks find you online if they wanna reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

我们所有的东西都免费放在 svpg.com，也就是 Silicon Valley Product Group 的网站上。

Well, I mean, of all of our stuff we publish for free at svpg.com, siliconvalleyproductgroup.com.

你也可以在社交媒体上找到我，不过我真是不太情愿，只做最少的必要互动。

You can also find me reluctantly on social media, but I do the minimum possible.

社交媒体上的噪音实在太多了，正经信息太少。

The signal to noise ratio on social media is so terrible.

我更愿意把精力放在别的地方，但你要真想找我，那儿肯定有。

I try to focus on other places, but that's where you can find me for sure.

说实话，到我这个阶段，就是图个开心而已。

And, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I mean, at this point in my career, I'm just having fun.

我真没指望从谁那儿得到什么。

I'm not looking for I'm not looking for anything from anybody.

不过呢，我倒是可以告诉你一件我特别喜欢的事。

I hope well, I'll tell you one thing I love.

我超爱碰到那些难啃的问题。

I love getting hard questions.

我写的大部分文章，其实都来自以前没人问过我的问题。

Most of my articles are inspired by questions that I have never got before.

所以当我听到同一个问题问得够多了，我就觉得，嗯，也许该写一写了。

And so I when I hear the same question enough, I realize maybe I should write about it.

我特别喜欢这样，尤其是当这问题让我自己也得去深入学习的时候。

And I love that, especially if it's something I need to go learn more about.

现在我的人脉圈已经挺广了，遇到不懂的，我随时可以找人聊聊，比如问伦尼：‘你觉得这事儿咋样？’

And I I do have, at this point in my career, a great Rolodex of people that I can go to and say, you know, hey, Lenny, what do you think about this?

或者谢雷亚斯、特蕾莎也行。

Or Shreyas or Theresa.

这些都是特别聪明的人，我随时能去问他们：‘你怎么看这个？’

All these people I know that are very smart, and I can go to them and say, what do you think about this?

然后我把各种想法拼起来，写成文章。

And I sort of put everything together, and I I write about it.

所以如果你真找遍了也没找到一个靠谱的答案，别客气，直接给我发邮件。

So, yeah, if you've if you really have tried and can't find a good answer to a hard question, feel free to email me.

太棒了。

Amazing.

有难题就发给马蒂吧。

Send your hard questions to Marty.

马蒂，真的太感谢你来参加这次对话了。

Marty, thank you so much for doing this.

这完全超出了我的期待。

This is everything I hoped it would be.

特别感谢你愿意来和我聊，也谢谢你今天到场。

I'm really thankful that you joined me, and thank you for being here.

也谢谢你邀请我，莱尼，祝所有听众一切顺利。

Well, thanks again for inviting me, Lenny, and good luck to everybody out there.

非常感谢大家收听。

Thank you so much for listening.

如果你觉得这期内容有帮助，欢迎在苹果播客、Spotify，或者你常用的播客平台订阅本节目。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

也别忘了给我们打个分、写个评价，这真的能帮更多人发现这个播客。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

所有往期节目和更多节目信息，都可以访问 lenny'spodcast.com 查看。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com.

下期再见！

See you in the next episode.