2026年新的AI增长指南：Lovable如何在一年内实现2亿美元年经常性收入 | 伊莲娜·韦尔纳（增长负责人）

我们实际上依赖工程师来承担大量产品工作。

We actually lean on our engineers to do a lot of product work.

我们称他们为产品工程师。

We call them product engineers.

他们必须亲自去宣布自己发布的产品。

And they have to go and they have to announce the thing that they've shipped.

这并不只是通过市场部门来传递。

It doesn't just funnel through marketing.

在这种高速度下，需要大量的自主权和主动性，否则市场团队将不得不配备一个庞大的队伍来应对。

So there is a lot of autonomy, a lot of agency that needs to happen with this type of velocity, because marketing team otherwise you have to have an enormous marketing team to staff that.

因此，团队中的角色和职责也需要重新定义。

So it has to come with some roles and responsibilities redefinition on the team as well.

我们来谈谈市场营销。

Let's talk about marketing.

你还写过，市场营销正在发生巨大变化，它在增长中的角色也在改变。

That's something else you've written about is just marketing is changing in a big way, their role in growth.

营销在这一切中扮演了什么角色？

How does marketing play a role in all of this?

一方面，营销渠道正在发生变化。

On one side, marketing channels are changing.

另一方面，营销在产品所有事务中的参与方式也在改变。

On the other side, marketing's involvement into everything that product does is changing.

第三，我认为营销组织在招聘重点方面也正在随之改变。

And then number three, I think even marketing organizations in terms of where they hire the most are changing as a result as well.

所以我先说第二个方面，因为我们刚刚谈到了产品发布，那就是：你仍然有产品市场人员和渠道经理，但他们更关注大局和叙事。尽管这很困难，因为随着新功能不断推出，叙事本身也在不断变化。

So I'll talk about second one first, just because we just talked about shipping and that is, yeah, you still have your product marketers, you still have your channel managers, but they focus more on the big things and the narratives, Although it's difficult because the narrative even changes all the time as these functionalities come through.

过去，你通常可以制定一个定位和信息策略，并保持数年不变，围绕它打造所有营销活动。

Usually you can come up with a positioning and messaging and you can have it for years and create all of the campaigns around it.

但现在，这些策略可能只维持三个月，产品就变了。

Now you have it for three months and then the product changes.

因此，这里的周期非常短，对于小改动，由于周期如此之短，他们必须投入大量时间专注于这些变化，而这正是他们应该做的。

So, cycles here are really short and for smaller changes because cycles are so short, they spend so much time actually focusing on it as they should.

这些小的变化，营销部门根本无法支持。

Some of these smaller changes just cannot be supported by marketing.

你必须把这部分工作交给产品和工程团队，让他们自己做营销，否则的话，你将不得不组建一个庞大的营销团队来支持所有这些工作。

You have to delegate it to your product and engineering team to do their own marketing because otherwise, again, you're going to have to have enormous marketing team in order to support it all.

但与此同时，我认为目前营销所依赖的渠道也在发生很大变化

But at the same time, channels in which marketing right now works, I think are changing quite

一点。

a bit.

我觉得，没有足够多的人对此感到震惊并加以讨论，相反，大家只是不断重复同样的做法。

And not enough people, I feel like, are freaking out and talking about it as opposed to like moving just in the same direction over and over again.

我所看到的变化是，当我谈到有机增长策略时，如果你问我五年前这个问题，我会说那就是SEO。

And the changes that I'm seeing is that it has been very clear to me that when you're talking about organic strategy, if you're marketing organic strategy, if you asked me that five years ago, I would have said that's SEO.

就是搜索引擎优化，去谷歌上做。

It's search engine optimization, go on Google.

那就是你的有机营销策略。

That's your organic marketing strategy.

如果你问我现在的有机营销策略是什么，对我来说，一切都围绕着社交媒体，也就是我的CEO在发什么？

If you ask me what's the organic marketing strategy right now, to me, it's all about social, which is what is my CEO posting?

我的团队在发什么？

What is my team posting?

我的领英在做什么？

What is my LinkedIn?

我的创作者经济在做什么？

What is my creator economy doing?

在网红营销和所有社交媒体平台上吗？

In influencer marketing and across all of the social platforms?

这就是我的有机营销，公平地说，它平衡了付费和免费部分。

That is my organic, which is balance kind of paid, to be fair.

但当我想到有机营销时，仍然有很多口碑传播的成分。

But when I think about organic, there is still a lot of that word-of-mouth.

我的用户在社交媒体上发布了什么？

What are my users posting on social?

他们在谈论什么？

What are they talking about it?

他们在分享什么？

What are they what are they sharing?

这是一种思维转变，因为我一直专注于搜索，尤其是在B2B领域。

Which is like a mind shift because I've been always, especially in B2B, so focused on search.

但现在我觉得，这种趋势被进一步推向了消费者化领域，无论你的业务多么B2B，一切都转向了社交，因为注意力都在那里。

And now I feel like it's been completely pushed even further into consumerization territory and it has become all about social no matter how B2B you are, because that's where eyeballs are at.

这太有趣了。

That is fascinating.

当你谈到社交时，你觉得什么最有帮助？

And so when you talk about socials, what are you finding is most helpful?

是TwitterX吗？

Is it TwitterX?

是LinkedIn吗？

Is it LinkedIn?

是YouTube、TikTok还是Instagram？

Is it YouTube, TikTok, Instagram?

对于创始人社交和员工社交，X和LinkedIn是绝佳的渠道，尤其是对于B2B领域，因为所有B2B人群都在那里。

For founder socials, our employee socials, X and LinkedIn are fantastic sources, especially for b two b because that's where all of the b two b people are at.

但你不能让ChadGPT直接写好文案然后发出去。

But you cannot just have ChadGPT write your copy and post it.

你需要展现个性。

You need to show personality.

内容中必须有人性的温度。

There needs to be humanity that it goes through it.

这并不是每个人都能自然做到的，刚开始时常常会感觉很别扭。

And it's not natural for everybody and it feels very awkward sometimes to start.

但人们很在意是谁在打造这家公司，因为如今功能上的竞争太过激烈，他们更愿意支持一个团队。

But it's important to people to see who's building the company because there's so much competition now on functionality so they can rally behind a team.

所以他们希望支持一个他们想看到成功的团队。

So they want to have a team that they want to win.

为此，你需要展现脆弱的一面。

And for that, you need to be vulnerable.

你需要真诚，这显而易见，但你只需做自己。

You need to be authentic, obviously, but you just need to be yourself.

因此，那种企业式的修饰必须彻底消失，而随着公司规模扩大，这显然会变得困难。

So that corporate scrubbing has to completely fall off, which is obviously going to pull in as the company scales.

但在初期，这正是你脱颖而出的机会。

But at least at the beginning, that is a chance to stand out.

然后是你的客户自发地谈论你。

And then your customers posting about you.

那就是口碑传播——真正打造出一款让客户觉得值得分享的产品。

So that word-of-mouth of really creating a product that creates something for customers that is worth talking about.

它赋予他们想要分享的故事，让他们感到被赋能，仿佛揭开了一个秘密，为自己的创造感到自豪，而这正是我们非常注重的‘可爱’之处：让人感觉‘天啊，我现在拥有超能力了，迫不及待想告诉别人。’

It gives them stories that they want to share, that feels empowering to them to tell to others like they're unlocking a secret, like they feel proud of what they have created, which what we focus a lot on lovable on to have that feeling of, Oh my gosh, I have superpowers now and I can't wait to tell others.

我迫不及待想让别人看看正在发生的一切。

I cannot wait to show others what is happening.

所以在这两个方面，对我来说，这都是非常自然的。

So on both of those sides, to me, that is very much organic.

如果你面向消费者，那么Instagram和TikTok也是非常有效的渠道。

If you're in a consumer, then Instagram, TikTok are very much a go as well.

所以在这里，CEO显然是这个主题中的一个重要变量。

So here it's, the CEO clearly is an important, variable in this them.

在这种情况下，Anton只是发推文，分享Lovable的最新动态。

In this case, Anton just tweeting, here's what's going on in Lovable.

这是它增长的速度。

Here's how fast it's growing.

我们最近邀请了Gamma的CEO，他也完全是同样的做法。

Here's something we've we had the CEO of Gamma, on recently granted, and he's exactly the same thing.

分享大量经验、公开建设的历程，这是增长的重要杠杆。

Just sharing a bunch of lessons, journey building in public, a big part of the growth lever.

你在这里的观点是，好吧，这是CEO的作用，但你又如何让客户在社交媒体上分享内容呢？

And your point here is, okay, so it's the CEO, but then it's also how do you get your customers to share things on socials?

然后还有一部分是付费网红。

And then there's a paid influencer sort of component.

是的。

Yes.

客户这一块比较难。

The customer is difficult one.

你需要建立一个口碑循环。

That's a word-of-mouth loop that you need to stand up.

创造口碑循环的唯一方法，就是让用户在实际体验你的产品时感到惊艳。

The only way to create a word-of-mouth loop is just to blow their socks off when they actually experience your product.

我们有一个几乎不公平的优势，因为我们的产品叫 Lovable。

We have a really almost unfair advantage because our product is called lovable.

所以，我们默认就是要创造极致令人喜爱的体验。

So by default, we're trying to create an absolute lovable experiences.

这在公司内部是一种心态。

Like, that is a mentality internally.

如果不够可爱，我们就不发布。

If it's not lovable, we're not going to ship it.

所以，在 Lovable，修复bug的最佳方式就是说‘这不够可爱’，当大家一听到就会立刻跳出来马上修复。

So and the best way to fix a bug at Lovable is to say this is not lovable, like when everybody just like jumps on it to fix it right there and then.

没有冲刺，也不需要冲刺。

Sprints, no sprints.

这并不重要。

It doesn't matter.

现在就修复它。

It's getting fixed right now.

从这个角度来看，我们已经将这种文化深深融入品牌之中，而我们的名字也为此提供了很大帮助。

So from that perspective, we kind of have that culture already embedded as part of our brand and it's part of our name, which helps us a lot.

但关键在于，你能在每一次互动中都感受到这种品牌精神。

But that's the point is that you feel that brand through every interaction.

我经常和我的设计师交流。

I talk to my designer all the time.

我们如何在产品中加入更多令人喜爱的细节？

How can we add more love marks into the product?

我们如何更优先地设计独特的互动体验？

How can we prioritize more unique interactions?

那些构成产品感受的细微元素，正在向我传达某种信息。

The little elements that make up that the feeling of this product is speaking to me.

它给人一种独特的感觉。

It's like it feels something like that is unique.

它背后有着鲜明的个性。

It has personality behind it.

所以我们把所有的品牌工作都融入到了产品中。

So we put all of the brand work actually into our product.

当人们想到令人喜爱的事物时，往往会想到品牌，但我们还没有专门的品牌营销团队。

When you think about lovable thing, people think about a brand, but we don't have a brand marketing team yet.

所以这一切都通过产品互动，以及那些幕后人员在公开构建过程中的瞬间来体现。

So, it's all just through product interactions and some of those building in public moments of the people behind those product interactions.

这就是我们的策略。

That is our strategy.

然后是影响者营销。

And then there's influencer marketing.

有趣的是，影响者营销对我们来说比付费社交大了十倍。

Interestingly enough, influencer marketing is 10 times bigger for us than paid social.

所以，我们确实也做一些付费社交，效果还不错。

So yeah, we do some paid social as well and it's working decently.

从投资回报周期来看，它相当昂贵。

It's quite expensive from payback period.

我们仍在优化它。

We're still optimizing it.

正如我所说，我们在所有这些渠道上都还处于早期阶段。

As I said, we're pretty early on in all of these channels.

但影响者营销从一开始就奏效了。

But influencer marketing is something that has worked from the beginning.

一个可爱且合理的理由是，社交媒体上的影响者营销能让你有机会制作一段短视频并进行互动。

A lovable and reason behind it is that influencer marketing, especially on the socials, it gives you an opportunity to have a little video and interaction.

而‘可爱’就在于看到‘天啊，这就是我能做的，这是可能的’。

And lovable is all about seeing like, oh, my gosh, this is what I can do and this is possible.

因此，这促使人们去亲自尝试。

So that drives people to go and try it themselves.

这就是为什么社交媒体对我们非常有效，因为它并不是一个文字化的价值主张。

So that's why social works very well for us, because it's not really a written value proposition.

比如，没人知道字节编码是什么。

Like, nobody knows what byte coding is.

但你只要看十秒钟，就会说：‘哦，这很新颖。’

But you watch ten seconds of it and you go, oh, that's new.

让我去试试看。

Let me go give it a try.

谁能想到，一个传统上被视为数据、指标、电子表格、推动KPI的增长负责人，竟然会说：‘好吧。’

Who would have thought that a head of growth who is traditionally seen as, like, data, metrics, spreadsheets, drive KPIs is like, okay.

我们如何让这个更讨人喜欢？

How do we make this more lovable?

我们如何增加更多令人愉悦的时刻？

How do we add more moments of delight?

我知道。

I know.

我的玩笑是，在我这段讨人喜欢的旅程结束时（希望永远不会结束），我会成为一个增长型品牌的人。

My my my joke is, like, at the end of my lovable journey, whenever hopefully never comes to an end, but but at the end, I'll be like a growth brand person.

在这儿，在这儿。

Here here.

嗨。

Hi.

我叫埃琳娜。

My name is Elena.

我现在做品牌。

I do brand now.

但我实际上认为，确保品牌在每一次互动中都熠熠生辉，是增长战略的一部分。

But I actually see it as part of growth strategy to make sure that that brand shines through every single interaction.

我总是和我的团队谈论这一点，因为这是我们的增长故事中一个关键的杠杆。

And I always talk to my team about it because that is one big lever in our growth story.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为这是一个非常重要的观点，值得强调。

So I think that's a really important point to highlight.

Lovable增长如此迅速的原因在于，它是一款人们喜爱的产品。

The reason Lovable is growing so fast is it is a product people love.

你创造出了人们想要的东西。

You've made something people want.

而口碑之所以传播，是因为它真的让人惊艳，正如你所说。

And the word-of-mouth spreads because it's something that blows people's socks off, as you said.

所以，这似乎是你要首先做对的事情。

So it feels like that's the first thing you got to get right.

是的。

Yes.

首先，你必须在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，并且要身处快速发展的浪潮中。

Well, the first thing you have to get right is you have to be at the right place at the right time, and you have to be in fast moving waters.

别忽视这个品类自身正在迅猛扩张的速度。

Like, let's not discount how fast this category is exploding on its own.

所以，并不是你启动的每一个品类都能发生这种情况。

So this cannot happen in every single category that you're starting to build the products.

但在极度拥挤的品类中脱颖而出的方法，是创造能与人产生共鸣的体验。

But the way to stand out in the super crowded categories to create experiences that speak to people.

我认为，很多人忽视了这一点，因为他们仍然优先考虑功能而非软件中的人性化元素。

That I think is something that a lot of people deprioritize because they still prioritize functionality over humanity within software.

我认为，我们正进入软件的新时代——软件需要让人感到人性化，人们愿意与之互动，而不仅仅是因为它的实用性。因为软件的开发成本大幅下降，我们现在有能力投资于软件的情感体验，而不仅仅是专注于实现其功能。

And I think that we're actually moving to the new era of software that needs to feel human, that people want to interact with, not just utility of it, because cost of software is coming down so much to develop that we now can actually invest into emotional feel of that software as opposed to only just focus on creating the utility out of it.

对我来说，我非常喜欢这种转变，因为我最讨厌的就是使用那些令人痛苦不堪的软件，每次交互都让我损耗脑细胞；相反，我更喜欢那些让我感到充满能量的软件。

So to me, it's it's I love this move because I hate nothing more than going to software that is just like so painful to use that I lose some brain cells as I'm interacting with it versus software that I feel I get energy out of.

对于Lovable，我迫不及待想亲自去体验和编写一些我手头的项目。

And for Lovable for me, like I cannot wait on some of the projects that I have to go and vibe code myself.

这简直是我一天中最期待的时刻。

Like, that's the highlight of my day.

我经常会带着女儿一起，跟她说：我们来干这个吧。

And I just like I don't I bring in my daughter and I'm like, let's go do this.

你觉得这里需要做些什么？

Like, what do you think that needs to be done?

因为我做这件事时能获得巨大的能量。

Because I just get so much energy out of doing it.

这种感受是当你只把它当作一个功能问题时无法创造出来的。

And that is the feeling you cannot create by looking at it as a utility problem.

在我看来，你所描述的情况是，基本门槛已经提高了，现在构建产品变得非常容易。

The way I think about it, the way what you're describing is it's almost table stakes have increased and now it's so easy to build.

如今，真正的差异化在于体验、设计和愉悦感。

Now the big differentiator is experience, design, delight.

没错。

Exactly.

而且这种体验必须贯穿每一次互动。

And it has to translate through every single interaction.

因此，在初创公司中，设计师现在必须是首批聘用的人之一。

So your designer has to be one of your first hires now in startups.

这不仅仅是工程或实用性的问题。

It's not just about the engineering, so to speak, utility.

你必须仔细思考每一次互动：这是否传达了我们的品牌？

And you have to think through every single interaction of does this communicate our brand or not.

因此，我想回到你之前提到的一点，即推出新功能是巨大的增长杠杆。

So along those lines, I want to come back to something you talked about, which is launching new features as a huge growth lever.

这里最大的问题就是，当所有人都被赋予发布功能的权力时，你如何保持质量和一致性？

The kind of the big question there is just how do you maintain quality and cohesiveness as all these people are empowered to ship stuff?

除此之外，你有没有发现什么有效的方法，可以避免产品变成拼凑的怪兽，或堆砌一堆只想发推文炫耀的功能？

Is there anything else there you've seen that works well to help avoid just the Frankenstein product, just endless features that you want to tweet about?

是的。

Yeah.

其中一部分是无法被标准化的，而是你雇佣的那些会去推动这些事情的人的类型。

One part of it is not something that you can codify, but it's the type of people that you hire that are going to go and ship these things.

我们在Lovable努力招聘我们能找到、能吸引并能留住的最顶尖人才。

We at Lovable try to hire the absolute best talent available out there that we can bring in and that we can source and that we can attract to grow with.

我所说的顶尖人才是什么意思呢？

And what do I mean by that best talent?

并不是那些曾在大公司工作过、做过很多标志设计或拥有辉煌成功案例的人。

It's not that somebody who has been at really large companies or somebody that has really done a lot of logos or has big success stories behind them.

而是那些对自己的工作充满热情的人。

It's somebody who is extremely passionate about their job.

这是他们的爱好。

It's their hobby.

他们热爱工作。

They love to work.

他们内心充满激情。

They have fire in their belly.

这对他们来说不是一份薪水。

This is not a paycheck for them.

他们做这件事是出于某种更深层的原因。

They want to do this for some ulterior reason.

这是他们人生中最大的机会。

This is the biggest opportunity of their life.

因此，相对于他们目前面临的其他任何机会，这都是全球最优选。

So this is global maximum against any other opportunities that are in front of them at the moment.

因此，这对我们的意义非常重大。

So that's very important for us.

我们希望人们来到Lovable，发挥出他们最出色的工作水平。

We want people to come and do their absolute best work at Lovable.

这一点非常重要，你在这间办公室里就能感受到。

It's very important and you can feel it in this office.

人们充满干劲。

People are wired up.

他们满脑子想的都是怎么把它做得更好？

They are so high on how can we make this better?

我们怎么能为客户提供更多价值？

How can we deliver more to our customers?

这与通常公司成长的方式截然不同。

And that's very different compared to usually how companies grow.

我们想的是，好吧，简历符合技能要求，通过了筛选。

We're like, Okay, yeah, the check, check, check, they fit the skill set.

那就把他们招进来吧。

Let's bring them in.

但这是真正的热情吗？

But is that passion?

背后有这种激情吗？

Is that fire behind it?

第二部分是我们非常努力地明确什么是这里的成功。

And then the second piece is that we work really hard on just addressing what's the success here looks like.

我们到底在构建什么？

What is it that we're building?

我们为哪些使用场景而构建？

What use cases are we building for?

由于我们招聘的这些人对它充满热情，另外两项非常重要的技能是高度的主动性和高度的自主性。

And then because we hire these people that are so passionate about it, the other two skills, by the way, that are super important is high agency and high autonomy.

我可以自己弄清楚那些与我相关但并非我专业领域的事情。

I can figure out things that are tangential to me that I don't need other specialties, so to speak.

比如，我不需要市场人员来推出一个产品。

Like I don't need a marketer to go launch something.

我可以自己去搞定。

I can go figure it out.

而且我有很强的主动性。

And I have high agency.

我可以自己去做。

I can go do it myself.

我会从头到尾全程负责。

I'm going to own it from all the way from start to finish.

这些非常重要，是我们筛选人才和文化中看重的特质。

Those are very important, something that we screen for and something that we look for in our culture.

至于你想做什么，完全由你自己决定。

And then you just see what you want to do is up to you.

因此，实际工作中很少有人进行监督。

So there's very little supervision that happens on the ground.

当然，我们都有目标，比如我们共同推进的一些重大发布。

Now, we all have goals and like some of the big launches that we're all marching towards.

但有些工作完全由开发者、营销人员等自行决定：他们想做什么？

But some of the work that is a completely up to developers, up to marketers or whatever, what is it that they want to do?

因此，必须给予他们尝试的自由。

So there has to be that enablement of go try things.

由于我们的速度很快，即使失败了也不是大事。

And because of our velocity, if you fail, it's not a big deal.

我们会直接调整方向。

We'll just pivot.

我们会克服困难，顺利度过。

We'll go we'll get we'll get through it.

我们并不是为了每次都赢才在这里的。

We are not here to just win all the time.

关于招聘这些出色的人才，正如我们都知道的，如今招聘人员非常困难，尤其是顶尖人才。

On the hiring of these incredible people, as we all know, it's very hard to hire people these days, especially the best.

你们觉得 Lovable 在招聘顶尖人才方面有什么不同或做得特别好的地方？

What have you seen Lovable does differently or does well that helps them recruit the best?

是的。

Yes.

尤其是在斯德哥尔摩招聘。

Especially recruit in Stockholm.

我的意思是，这里的总部在斯德哥尔摩。

I mean, the main office here is in Stockholm.

我们要求很多人搬迁，这可不是小事。

We're asking a lot of people to relocate, which is a no small feat.

现在，部分原因是我们在产品上制造的热度让事情变得容易了。

Now, some of it makes it easy because of how much hype we created around our product.

人们想来为我们工作。

People want to come work for us.

他们主动联系了我们。

They're reaching out to us.

他们说：我喜欢你们在做的事情。

They're saying, I love what you're doing.

我想加入你们。

I want to join it.

所以我们有一个捷径，因为大多数时候，当我们联系某人时，他们都会说：是的，我很愿意了解一下。

So that we have a cheat code to it because like we have most of the time when we reach out to somebody, they say, yeah, I would love to explore.

所以，打造一个非常受欢迎的产品，也能为你建立一个极佳的招聘品牌。

So building that product that is highly lovable also creates a really great recruiting brand for you as well.

所以要确保这能带来多重好处。

So make sure that there's multiple benefits to that.

但其次，我们会为很多人安排试用期。

But second of all, we do a lot of trials for people.

通过试用工作来观察

So trial work to see

他们在工作中表现如何

them A work in

通过几天的试用观察他们实际工作表现。

trial to see them in action for a couple of days.

在试用期间我们会支付他们报酬。

We pay them as part of the work trial.

我们设有一些试用期，因为这家公司并不适合每个人。

We have some probation periods that we start people on because this company is not for everybody.

正如我在播客开头说的，这里的节奏快得惊人。

As I said in the podcast in the beginning, the pace here is insane.

我第一次去度假了。

I went on a vacation for the first time.

所以我在这里已经六个月了。

So I've been here for six months.

我出去度假了十天。

I went on vacation for ten days.

我回来后，感觉就像需要从头开始适应一样。

I came back, I felt like I needed to onboard from the beginning.

一切都变了。

Like everything changed.

当我身处其中时，我觉得这是一种演进。

And when I'm in it, I feel like it's an evolution.

但仅仅离开十天，就感觉公司发生了彻底的变革。

But the fact that just being gone for ten days, it feels like a complete revolution in the company.

这部分并不适合每个人。

It's that piece is just not for everybody.

这没关系，因为我坚信不同的文化与环境最适合不同性格和不同的人。

And that's okay because I'm very firm believer that there's different cultures and different environments that the best fit for different personalities and different people.

所以我们尽量坦诚地说明事情的现状以及它们有多混乱。

So we try to be very upfront with how things are and how chaotic they are.

我们优先选择那些不追求清晰的人。

And we prioritize people that don't look for clarity.

我们能在混乱中创造清晰，因为否则事情真的会极度混乱。

We can create clarity out of chaos because it is absolutely chaotic otherwise.

如果我们开始寻找那些能向我们解释清楚的人，这才是我们成功的唯一途径。

And if we start to look for people that can explain it to us, that's the only way that we can succeed.

你描述去度假后感觉截然不同，这就像好几天没见孩子，他们突然变得完全不一样了，你会想：这三天你怎么长得这么快？

The way you describe going on vacation and feeling very different, it feels like when you don't see your kid for a few days and they're just like completely different, you're like, how did you grow up so fast in three days?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

让我试着总结一下你发现有效的增长杠杆。

Let me try to summarize the growth levers that you're finding is are working.

我正试图从一家AI初创公司的角度来思考这个问题，嘿。

And I'm trying to think about this from the perspective of an AI startup trying to think about, hey.

天啊。

Shoot.

我们如何才能更快地增长？

How do we grow faster?

什么是令人喜爱的产品？

What is lovable figured out?

所以，第一点似乎是打造一款令人喜爱的产品，一款让人惊叹的产品，同时也要进入一个正在增长、人们愿意为之付费的市场。

So it feels like number one is just build something lovable, something that blows people's socks off, but also in a market that is growing that people want to pay money for.

你可以打造一个令人喜爱的产品，但根本没人关心，因为这个领域根本没有多少资金流入。

Like, you can build something lovable that nobody actually cares about, that that there isn't much money going to this space.

没有任何趋势推动它前进，所以它不会成功。

There's no tide pushing it forward, and it won't work.

我称之为最小可爱产品。

I call it minimum lovable product.

它不应该再是最小可行产品了。

Like, it shouldn't be minimum viable product anymore.

可行性已经留在了2010年代初期。

Viability is left in or back in twin twenty tens.

现在，最重要的是最小可爱产品。

Now it's minimum lovable product.

这才是唯一重要的事。

That's the only thing that matters.

我很喜欢这些AI工具让我们能够做到，你知道的，产品经理一直都有这些，叫什么来着，烟雾测试？那术语是什么？

I love how these AI tools are letting us, you know, like PMs have always had these, what are they, smoke door tester, like, what's the term?

就像，或者这根本算不上一个真实的产品。

Just like, or it's not a real product.

油漆门？

Painted door?

油漆门，没错。

Painted Painted door, yeah.

是的。

It is.

对。

Yeah.

而且呢，我们只是有一个着陆页。

And and it's like, okay, we just have a landing page.

上面什么都没有。

There's nothing there.

现在有了AI，做这件事更容易了，而且功能也更全面了。

Now AI makes it easier to do that, and it's like more full featured.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，反馈循环已经完全崩溃了。

Well, it's the feedback cycle is just completely collapsed.

如果你愿意，你可以从一个想法出发，在一天之内就做出一个能运行的产品并获得用户反馈。

You can go from idea to some product that is functioning to user feedback within a day if you want to.

我的意思是，这取决于你想跑得多快，或者产品有多复杂。

I mean, depending on how fast that you wanna run or how complex the product is.

对于这个项目，我们花了几个星期才把代码调试到那个程度，因为我们团队里还有一个全职的程序员。

For missions, it took us a couple of weeks to vibe code it to the point where because we also I have a full time Bypecoder on my team.

他太棒了。

He's amazing.

所以他想制作一些视频，还为此做了很多设计。

So like he wanted to create videos, like he did a bunch of designs for it too.

所以他花了几个星期。

So we he took him a couple of weeks.

我们现在正在测试，然后会把它放进产品里。

We're testing it now and then we'll put it in the product.

但这完全是另一种开发周期。

But it's a completely different development life cycle.

以前，从用户研究到设计冲刺，再到优先安排工程路线图，开发最小可行产品，进行测试，整个过程要经历很多步骤，而且测试周期很长。

Before, it would just take so many more steps from user research to the design sprints, to prioritizing on engineering roadmap, to build something minimal and viable to actually test to the little long testing cycles.

现在呢，就是砰一下，直接上。

Now it's just like, boom, let's go.

这本来只需要一天就能完成。

It's taken us could have taken us a day.

但我们决定花几周时间，把所有视频内容都完善好。

We just decided to take a couple of weeks to get all of the video pieces correct.

我看到你在领英上发布了这个。

I saw you launch this on LinkedIn.

在我看来，这看起来像是一次完整的产品发布。

To me, it looked like a full product launch.

听你这么说很有趣。

It is interesting to hear.

这只是一个原型。

This is just a prototype.

是的。

Yes.

这是最低限度的最低限度。

It's Minimum level Minimum

逻辑层面。

of logic.

我得问你一下。

I got to ask you.

你有一个全职的编码员。

You had a full time vibe coder.

这到底是什么？

What the heck is this?

这像是工程师，还是别的什么？

Is this like an engineer or is this something else?

什么是全职氛围程序员？

What is a full time vibe coder?

好问题。

Great question.

这是一个正在各地悄然出现的新职位。

This is a new job role that is actually popping up here and there.

观察这一发展简直太有趣了，因为我看到‘氛围编程’正作为一种技能被添加到许多设计师、产品经理和市场人员的职位描述中，我认为这是一次非常有趣的转变。

It's absolutely fascinating to watch this development because I see vibe coding as a skill being added to a lot of job descriptions for designers, for product managers, for marketers, which I think is a really interesting shift.

终于，Excel可以退场了。

Finally, Excel can move over.

我们需要添加一种全新的技能，它非常强大，不是三年前的，而是‘类型程序员’。

Like we have a new skill to add that is super empowering and not three years old, but type coder.

他的名字叫拉扎尔，之前担任过首席了。

So his name is Lazar and he actually was chief of staff in his previous role.

所以他完全不擅长技术。

So he's not technical at all.

他在技术方面是自学的，但他是 vibe coding 浪潮中的早期参与者。

He's self taught in technical aspects of it, but he was very early on in the vibe coding wave.

所以他学到了很多关于这方面的知识。

So he learned a lot about it.

他使用过所有 vibe coding 工具，包括 Lovable。

He was a user of all of the vibe coding tools, Lovable included.

当我接手这个角色时，我想：我有这么多项目，我可以自己用 vibe coding 来做。

And when I was coming into the role, I'm like, I have so many projects that I will vibe code myself.

所以我举办了一个只面向女性的黑客马拉松，她负责搭建。

So I run this woman only hackathon she builds.

我用 vibe coding 做了那个网站和申请提交流程的第一个版本。

I vibe coded the first version of that site and like and submission process for applications.

然后其他人加入进来，在此基础上继续开发。

And then other people came in and started building on top of it.

但我确实写过代码，只是有时候没足够时间，因为我得四处奔波，还想尽快推出这么多不同的计划，来测试我们自己的产品在市场上的表现。

But I've I've coded, but then like, I don't have enough time sometimes because I need to run around and I want to push out so many different initiatives that I want to test in the market with our own products.

所以我们通过社交媒体联系上了。

So we connected on social.

你加入我们吗？

Like, you join us?

他后来以兼职身份加入了我们。

And he joined us for part time.

你带来了这么多价值。

I make you bringing so much value.

例如，我们与Shopify合作，他为我们编写了一套Shopify Lovable模板。

For example, we partnered with Shopify and he created a bunch of Shopify lovable templates by coded for us.

有这样一个人不断推动这些事情，真的非常有帮助。

And it's been so helpful to have somebody like that that is just like pushing all of these things out.

他绝对是这方面的专家。

And he's an absolute expert.

所以他也在教我们所有关于Lovable的可能性，因为他始终站在前沿，不断将其推向极限。

So he's teaching us all too of what is possible with lovable because he's on the cutting edge of constantly pushing it to the limit.

所以我真的很享受这个角色，这在我一生和我的团队中都是前所未有的。

So I I really enjoy having that role, which I've never had before in my life and in my team.

我一点都不惊讶。

I'm not surprised.

我以前从未听说过这种角色能成为一份全职工作。

I've I've never heard of this role before as a real full time job.

你认为非 vibe 编程公司未来会开始招聘这种职位吗？

Do you think this is a thing people will start hiring for at non vibe coding companies?

我自己也会 vibe 编程。

So I vibe code myself.

所以，我会把这当作一项技能写在我的简历上。

So, like, I would put that as even as a skill on my on my resume.

不过，我花了一段时间才弄明白。

Now, it took me a while to figure out.

顺便说一下，大家都觉得，哦，你只要进去，一切都会自动发生。

By the way, like, everybody is like, oh, you just go in like and it all happens automatically.

你需要经过几次迭代、几个项目之后，才会明白：哦，我该怎么去转化它，该怎么去思考它。

It takes you a couple of iterations, couple of projects until like you know, okay, this is how I need to translate it, how I need to think about it.

但对我来说，当我开始扩展我想用共鸣编码实现的内容时，他的价值才真正体现出来。

But for me, it's when I started scaling of what I want to vibe code, that's where his value really came in.

因为我觉得，好吧，我明白了什么是可能的。

Because I'm like, okay, I understand what is possible.

我知道需要实现什么。

I know what needs to be achieved.

而这些应用中的一些，想要被几乎完全构建起来，因为它们短期内不会被整合进产品中。

And some of these apps, want to be almost full blown built because they're not going to get incorporated into the product anytime soon.

它们其实不需要被整合。

They don't need to be.

我只需要从我们的头部链接到它们就可以了。

I'll just link to them from from our headers, so to speak.

他真的大大提升了我的工作效率。

And he really accelerated that velocity for me.

一旦你开始使用代码生成，并看到它在你组织中的价值，依赖这样的人会进一步加速你的进度，因为他就像你团队中的一名工程师。

So once you get into by coding and you see its value within your organization, leaning into somebody like that just accelerates your velocity because it is like an engineer on your team.

只是他们对我来说不是这样。

It's just they're not to me.

他这部分是技术性的，但如果他们非常出色，也可以是非技术人员。

He's his part his part technical, but they can be nontechnical if they're really good.

这太有趣了。

That is fascinating.

本集节目由Persona赞助，Persona是一个验证身份平台，帮助组织完成用户注册、防范欺诈并建立信任。

This episode is brought to you by Persona, the verified identity platform helping organizations onboard users, fight fraud, and build trust.

我们在这个播客中经常谈到人工智能的惊人进步，但这也是一把双刃剑。

We talk a lot on this podcast about the amazing advances in AI, but this can be a double edged sword.

每一个令人惊叹的时刻背后，都有欺诈者利用同样的技术制造混乱，洗钱、盗用员工身份、冒充企业。

For every wow moment, there are fraudsters using the same tech to wreak havoc, laundering money, taking over employee identities, and impersonating businesses.

Persona 通过自动化的用户、企业及员工验证来应对这些威胁。

Persona helps combat these threats with automated user, business, and employee verification.

无论你是想识别候选人欺诈、遵守年龄限制，还是保护平台安全，Persona 都能根据你的具体需求提供量身定制的用户验证方案。

Whether you're looking to catch candidate fraud, meet age restrictions, or keep your platform safe, Persona helps you verify users in a way that's tailored to your specific needs.

最重要的是，Persona 让你轻松了解对方的身份，同时不会给合法用户带来额外的麻烦。

Best of all, Persona makes it easy to know who you're dealing with without adding friction for good users.

这就是为什么 Etsy、LinkedIn、Square 和 Lyft 等领先平台都信赖 Persona 来保障其平台安全。

This is why leading platforms like Etsy, LinkedIn, Square, and Lyft trust Persona to secure their platform.

此外，Persona 还为我的听众提供每月 500 次免费服务，持续整整一年。

Persona is also offering my listeners 500 free services per month for one full year.

只需前往 withpersona.com/lenny 即可开始使用。

Just head to withpersona.com/lenny to get started.

网址是 with persona.com/lenny。

That's with persona.com/lenny.

再次感谢 Persona 对本集的赞助。

Thanks again to Persona for sponsoring this episode.

让我稍微回溯一下，快速总结一下增长杠杆。

Let me kinda go back to summarize just real quick the growth levers.

我想转向一个稍微不同的方向。

I wanna move in a somewhat different direction.

所以那些帮助 Lovable 增长的因素。

So things that help Lovable grow.

首先是像你所说的那样，打造一个让人惊叹的产品。

One is just build something in mind that blows your socks off, as you said.

我喜欢这些说法。

I love these phrases out here.

第二是在市场上制造声量。

The second is make noise in the market.

Lovable 是这样做的：CEO 不断地发推文。

And the way that Lovable does this, the CEO is tweeting constantly.

你打造一个让人惊叹的产品，让用户自己在社交媒体上分享，再加上影响者营销的成分，以及‘公开构建’这个理念，都起到了很大的作用。

You build something that blows people's socks off so that they share things on socials themselves, plus this influencer marketing component, and just this idea of building in public has been really helpful.

关于激活功能嵌入在AI代理的产品团队中的这一点。

This point about activation being kind of embedded within the product team of the AI of the AI agent essentially.

所以这并不是增长团队在思考激活问题。

So it's essentially not the growth team thinking about activation.

而是构建AI魔法的产品团队，对激活功能极为关注。

It's the product team that is building the AI magic that is obsessed with activation.

我觉得这些就是主要的增长杠杆。

And it feels like those are the main the main growth levers.

我有没有遗漏什么其他内容？

Is there anything else that I missed?

社区。

Community.

我认为社区在这里非常重要，因为你需要将人们聚集在一起，让他们在探索这些功能、了解可能性时能够相互启发、互相帮助。

I think community is really important here because you need to bring people together as they're exploring these capabilities and as they're seeing what's possible so they can bounce off each other and they can help each other out.

因此，我会说社区也能放大口碑效应。

So I would say community also amplifies that word-of-mouth.

它增强了所有的社交帖子。

It amplifies all of the social posting.

它也增强了你的留存机制。

It amplifies retention mechanisms for you as well.

社区也是Lovable成功的重要组成部分。

The community has been a huge part of Lovable's success as well.

这一点从很早就开始了。

And that's something that was started very early on.

它运行在Discord上，所以没什么花哨的。

It runs on Discord, so it's nothing fancy.

我们并没有为自己从零开始构建任何东西。

It's not like we build anything completely from scratch for ourselves.

它拥有数十万成员，并且非常活跃。

And it has hundreds of thousands of members, and it's very lively.

我们有社区管理员确保所有问题都能得到解答，并创建合适的群组。

We have community managers that are making sure that all of the questions get answered and the right groups are being created.

我们现在还有一个非常棒的代言人计划，有很多人在做这件事。

We have incredible ambassador program now as well of people doing it.

所以我认为，社区在这里扮演着非常重要的角色，让软件变得更有人情味。

So I would say community here again of really making software more human is very important role.

当然，并不是每个人都能建立一个社区，但至少接入别人的社区也是非常重要的。

Now, obviously not everybody can build a community, but maybe at least plugging in into somebody's community is quite important as well.

然后还有另一个方面。

And then there's another one.

除非你对社区有什么问题。

Unless you have a question on community.

没有，继续说。

No, keep going.

另一个是大量免费提供你的产品。

And another one is giving your product away a lot.

对于AI产品来说，这可能看起来不合常理，因为它们的成本很高。

And for AI products, it may feel counterintuitive because they're so costly.

每次与AI产品的互动都会给公司带来成本。

Every single interaction with an AI product cost company something.

存在一个通过LLM产生的成本。

There's an LLM pass through cost that is coming through.

我看到许多传统科技公司都把AI功能直接放在付费墙后面，因为它们拥有非常丰厚的高利润率模式。

And a lot of especially traditional tech companies I see are gating AI immediately behind the paywall because they're sitting on the really cush high margin profile.

而一旦你开始免费提供AI服务，就像用刀切黄油一样直接削减了这些利润。

And the moment that you start giving AI away for free, you like cutting into those margins with like a knife through the butter.

但与此同时，由于AI还很新，其能力也处于早期阶段，你必须消除进入门槛。

Now, at the same time, AI being so new and the capabilities being so new, you have to remove the barrier of entry.

你必须免费提供大量产品。

You have to give a lot of your product away for free.

顺便说一句，我指的不仅仅是免费增值模式。

But by the way, I don't just mean freemium.

对我来说，免费增值只是基本底线。

Freemium to me is just like a baseline.

如果你处于一个新类别中，你需要让人们免费体验它，获得最初的那种惊艳感。

If you're in the new category, you need to let people explore what it is free and get that initial wow moment.

顺便说一句，这并不是一个瞬间。

It's not a moment, by the way.

它不再需要是一个瞬间了。

It doesn't need to be a moment anymore.

它只需要是一个惊艳的时刻。

It just needs to be a wow moment.

对于Lovable来说，那就是在你输入第一个提示后生成的首次预览，尽管它绝对不是你想要构建的完整成果，但你会立刻觉得：这居然可能。

And for Lovable is that first preview generation after your first prompt, even though it's absolutely not gonna be complete thing of what you wanna build, but you just go, this is possible.

我根本没想到会这样。

Like, I had no idea.

我想继续构建下去。

I wanna keep building.

这变成了一种令人上瘾的体验。

And it becomes an addictive exercise.

但我们还会把大量的Lovable积分免费赠送给每个活动、每次黑客松。

But we also give so many of our Lovable credits away to every event, to every hackathon.

如果你想举办一场Lovable黑客松，我们会赞助并免费为所有参与者提供积分。

If you want to host a lovable hackathon, we will sponsor it and give all of the participants credits away for free.

所以我们把这些积分当作糖果发放，并将它们在免费版和赠品活动中的LLM成本视为我们的营销费用。

So we give them away as candy and we basically track them over our LLM costs on freemium and giveaways as our marketing costs.

这并不属于我们需要削减以提升利润率的开支。

And it doesn't go into our something we need to reduce to make our margins better.

这属于我们必须加大投入的部分，因为这是我们的增长秘诀。

It goes into this is something that we need to spend more in because this is part of our growth secret sauce.

好的。

Okay.

我想多听听关于这个增长秘诀的内容。

I wanna hear more about the growth secret sauce.

这太有趣了。

That is extremely interesting.

我以前没听说过这种策略，但我能理解为什么这很合理。

I haven't heard of that as a strategy, and I can see why this makes sense.

如果策略是让用户体验惊艳到主动告诉朋友、在所有社交媒体上分享，关键就是让更多人来尝试。

If the strategy is blow people's socks off so they could tell their friends, post on all socials, The trick is to get more people to try it.

这简直太疯狂了，谁会愿意花钱？谁会费劲去注册账号，如果我根本不知道这是什么、也不知道该怎么用它的话。

And this is and it's such a new crazy thing, like why would I pay money, why would I even go take the effort to like try sign up for an account if I don't know what this is, I don't know what I'm doing with it.

所以我能理解，通过免费赠送，这个循环会变得越来越快。

So I could see how this loop goes faster and faster by giving it away.

没错。

Exactly.

对于那些传统上利润率较低的公司来说，这种做法有时会让人很不安。

Again, this is very uncomfortable sometimes for companies that either use to really AI companies have lower profile of margins.

这确实是真的。

That's absolutely true.

想找一家利润率高达90%的AI公司，简直是天方夜谭。

To find an AI company with 90% margin profile is absolutely impossible.

咱们现实点吧。

Let's be real.

我们所有人都处在大约40%的水平，这已经低多了。

We're all sitting somewhere in the 40% or so, which is a lot smaller.

所以，每当你把AI成本当作成本中心来看时，你就陷入麻烦了。

So any time that you look at those AI costs as your cost center, that's when you're in trouble.

你必须从根本上转变思路，向人们展示什么是可能的，并消除其中的盈利障碍。

You fundamentally have to flip the script and say, need to expose to people of what is possible and I need to remove the monetization friction out of it.

因为如果你不这么做，根本没人会去尝试，或者你很快就会被一个免费提供这项服务的竞争对手超越。

Because if you don't, nobody's ever going to try it or you're going to be very easily overtaken by a competitor that will give it away.

而且说实话，一旦你抓住了用户，他们更有可能留下来。

And let's face it, once you hook people, they're more likely going to stay with you.

所以你显然还得在留存策略上继续努力。

So you obviously have to still work on the retention strategy there.

但如果你能像我们这样，让某个用户站起来说：‘嘿，我要在我公司办一个关于Lovable的黑客马拉松。’

But if you can have, like for our case, if somebody, one of our users stands up and say, hey, I'm going to have a hackathon at my work on Lovable.

能给我们所有人一些免费积分用来试用吗？

Can you give us all some free credits to play with?

我们为什么要阻止那些愿意在公司里为我们做全部营销和推广的人使用我们？

Why would we prevent person who wants to do all of the marketing and activating job for us in their company from using us?

当然，我们会说：拿去用吧。

Of course, we're like, take it.

你需要多少？

How much do you need?

你希望要多少？

How much would you like?

我们全包了。

We will sponsor it all.

你需要什么，我们都会提供。

We will give you anything that you need.

因此，我们正在全力支持那些希望向周围人展示这种神奇功能的人，并尽可能地赋能他们。

So we're really leaning into people that are wanting to show this magic to those around you and empowering them as much as possible.

而这实际上适用于每一个产品。

And that is something that is actually applies to every single product.

我同意，这种策略——尽可能免费提供产品——我这辈子从未用过，但越来越多地，我看到这已成为一种绝对不可妥协的做法。

And I agree, this is not a growth strategy that I've ever applied in my life on, like, giving product away as much as possible, but it is something that is more and more becoming something that I see that is absolutely non negotiable.

我感觉越是令人惊叹的东西，就越应该免费赠送。

What I'm feeling is like the more mind blowing it is, the more you should give it away for free.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是在竞争激烈的市场中，每个人都很难脱颖而出。

Especially in a competitive market where everyone is, you know, it's hard.

有太多公司都在做这件事。

There's like so many companies trying to do this thing.

所以，你越优秀，就越应该免费赠送。

And so so it's almost like the better you are, the more you should give it away.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

这也解释了为什么这类公司需要筹集如此多的风投资金，因为这并不便宜。

And this also explains why so much VC money has to be raised for these sorts of companies because this is not cheap.

正如你所说，你要为这些基础模型支付大量费用。

Like you said, you're paying all these foundational models a lot of money.

是也不是。

Yes and no.

我说‘不是’，是因为你看看Lovable这家公司。

I'm only gonna say no is because so take a look at Lovable.

我们的年经常性收入已经超过两亿美元。

We're over 200,000,000 in ARR.

目前，我们有100名员工。

At this point, we're a 100 people large.

所以我们的人员成本是

So our headcount count costs are

非常低。

very low.

让我确保大家听清楚这一点。

Let just let me just make sure people hear that.

2亿ARR。

200,000,000 ARR.

我不知道Lovable有100名员工。

I didn't realize a 100 people work at Lovable.

是的。

Yes.

六个月前，Lovable只有30名员工。

And six months ago, we had 30 people working at Lovable.

所以我们增长了三倍。

So we tripled.

对我们来说，这真的意义重大。

So for us, it's a really big deal.

我们的公司规模翻了三倍。

We tripled our company size.

到年底，我们打算再翻一倍，我知道。

Going to quadruple it by the end of I know.

我们现在是真正的成年人了。

We're big boy and girls now.

但从人员成本的角度来看，这微不足道。

But perspective of the headcount costs, it's minimal.

所以这方面我们的投入非常少。

So we have very little in that going on.

我们没有在付费营销上花很多钱，因此不是主要靠付费营销驱动增长。

We are not spending a lot on paid marketing, so we're not a big paid marketing driver.

是的，我们在影响者营销上有投入，但这并不是我们增长的主要部分。

Yeah, we're spending on influencer marketing, but it's not majority of our growth.

老实说，只占个位数到低两位数，因为这并不是我们成功的原因。

It's low double digits, to to be fair, because it's it's not why we're successful.

它放大了我们的成功，并帮助我们触达新的受众。

It's amplifying our success and it's helping us reach new audiences.

我们并没有庞大的销售团队。

We don't have really large sales team.

我们只有几位销售人员，他们才刚开始拓展企业级业务。

We have only a couple of sales folks and they're just starting to ramp up their enterprise efforts.

所以我们也没有很大的企业级需求生成成本。

So we don't have like really big enterprise demand gen costs as well.

因此，从这个角度来看，如果你看看这个等式，会发现：如果你不做大量付费营销，也不做大量销售——因为我们目前只专注于那些明确表示想要购买 Lovable 的潜在客户——那么你没有大笔开支，就可以把钱花在产品上。

So from that perspective, if you like look at the equation and you say, well, okay, if you're not going to do a lot of paid marketing, if you're not going to do a lot of sales, because we're really only working on hand raisers of people that are saying right now that they want to buy lovable, then where is you don't have big costs so you can spend it on product.

这正是美妙之处，因为当我们把产品免费提供给客户时，我们并不与其他公司在这个领域竞争，因为它们只是在自己的黑客松活动中自行使用 Lovable。

And that is the beautiful part because you're not when we're giving our product away to our customers, we're not competing with other companies in that space because they're just going to use Lovable in their hackathon on their own.

而我们真正竞争的是在 AdWords 或付费谷歌搜索中，所有人都在抢购眼球的广告位。

And we're competing on AdWords or like in paid Google where everybody's buying real estate for eyeballs.

因此，从这个角度看，不妨把这理解为支出和成本重心的转变。

So from that perspective, think about it more as a shift of where we spend and cost.

坦白说，这种方式在付费营销上更高效，因为我们获得的每次曝光成本远低于在谷歌上竞争的成本。

And honestly, it's more efficient way to do paid marketing almost in a sense because of the cost per eyeball that we get there is quite a bit lower compared to if we were trying to compete it on the Google.

所以对于你的说法，答案是既对也不对，因为这实际上并没有削弱我们的利润率。

So yes and no to your statement because it actually does not deteriorate margin profile.

我们只是改变了支出的方向。

We're just shifting of where we're spending it.

你提出的这一点非常重要。

That is an incredibly important point you're making there.

所以你们并不是在产生巨额收入。

So it's not like you're generating an incredible amount of revenue.

因此，手头是有资金可以花的。

So there is money available to spend.

你说的是，由于主要依靠口碑传播，你们没有在销售人员身上花大钱，也没有在付费广告上投入巨资。

And what you're saying is because it's been spreading through word-of-mouth mostly, you're not spending tons of money on salespeople, you're not spending tons of money on paid ads.

这是一种让越来越多的人使用它的绝佳方式。

This is just an amazing way to get more people to use it.

所以这有点像营销成本。

So it's kind of like a marketing cost.

这是产品驱动的增长。

This is product led growth.

是的。

Yeah.

强力加速。

Supercharged.

极致。

Max.

强力加速。

Supercharged.

是的。

Yes.

因为你实际上是通过将产品免费提供给生态系统中的代理来驱动认知度，由他们为你进行分发。

Because you literally using your product to drive that awareness by giving it away to the agents in your ecosystem that will do that distribution for you.

太迷人了。

So fascinating.

我们生活的这个世界真是疯狂。

What a a wild world we're living in.

人人都能免费获得东西。

Free stuff for everyone.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，这对消费者来说很棒。

I mean, it's great for consumers.

现在是做消费者的绝佳时机。

This is a great time to be a consumer.

你有太多选择了，每个人都争相向你靠拢，免费赠送他们的产品。

You have so many options like everybody's throwing themselves at you, giving your product away for free.

所以现在进入市场真是太好了。

So it's great to be in the market right now.

我认为权力应该始终掌握在消费者手中。

I think it's the power should be with consumer always.

但以前软件领域的权力并不在消费者手中，因为我们被迫使用某些解决方案，要么是因为它们被强加给我们，要么是因为市场上只有这些选择。

But with software power has not been with consumer previously because we were forced to use towards some solutions because of either how they were chosen for us or what was available in the market.

而现在供应几乎无穷无尽，消费者的需求可以非常挑剔，服务最好的那一个才会胜出。

And now that supply is almost infinite, the demand from the consumers can be very picky and the one that serves the best will win.

我认为，再次强调这一点很重要。

And I think, again, it's important to highlight.

这并不是某种由风投补贴的泡沫现象。

This is not some kind of VC subsidized bubble ish sort of thing.

实际上，有大量资金正在被投入，以帮助它更快地发展。

Like, there is a lot of money being generated that you are spending to help it grow faster.

这并不是我们只是不断融资然后把钱白白送出去。

It's not like some kind of we're just raising more money to give away more money.