拯救产品职业生涯的唯一问题 | 马特·莱梅

越来越多的人加入开发，汽车的引擎盖变得越来越重。

You have more folks building in, and the hood of the car gets heavier and heavier.

产品变得越来越复杂。

The product gets more and more complicated.

你有这么多小部分彼此之间存在微小的依赖关系，导致产品就像我所认为的现代产品那样，变成了一堆松散连接的功能，而不是一个统一的引导式体验。

You have all these little bits that have little dependencies on each other, and the product becomes, as I think most modern products are, a collection of loosely connected features rather than a single guided experience.

这意味着什么？

What does that mean?

这意味着，内部开发任何东西都会变得困难得多。

That means internally, building anything becomes a lot harder.

对吧？

Right?

因为每当你想开发点什么时，都有十个产品团队需要管理依赖关系。

Because there's 10 product teams that have to manage dependencies whenever you wanna build something.

所以公司开始增加项目管理层次。

So companies start adding program management layers.

他们说，我们会议太多了。

They're like, we have too many meetings.

我们需要重新组织项目管理，因为重组能解决一切问题，我们必须确保有这些层级，人员之间相互连接，进行依赖管理。

We need to reorg for program management because reorgs fix everything, and we need to make sure that we have all these layers and people are connected, we're doing dependency management.

但当你不断增加这些措施时，做高影响力的工作就变得越来越难。

But as you add more of those things, it becomes harder and harder to do high impact work.

引擎盖变得越来越重，这反过来又让团队更深地陷入低影响力工作的泥潭。

The hood just gets heavier and heavier and heavier, which in turn sends teams deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of low impact work.

低影响力工作滋生更多的低影响力工作。

Low impact work begets low impact work.

你做的低影响力工作越多，做高影响力工作就越困难，就越容易继续做低影响力工作，如此循环。

The more low impact work you do, the harder it is to do high impact work, the more likely you are to do low impact work and so on and so forth.

这种情况不断持续，直到下一轮裁员。

It goes and goes and goes until the next round of layoffs.

这是一个真实存在的问题。

And this is a real problem.

我在几乎所有我待过的公司都经历过这种情况，看到各个产品团队敢于审视自己的工作，思考什么对业务真正重要，并说：‘等等，’这真的很有意思。

I've experienced this at, again, pretty much every company I've worked with, and it's been really interesting to see how often the breaking of that cycle comes down to individual product teams being brave enough to look at their own work and look at what matters to the business and say, you know what?

我们不再愿意承担成为低影响力团队的风险了。

We are not going to incur the risk of being a low impact team anymore.

我们会主动寻找高影响力的工作，即使这意味着我们必须与许多其他团队协调，即使这意味着管理层突然对我们所做的工作产生极大兴趣。

We are going to proactively seek out high impact work, and we're gonna deliver even if it means we have to coordinate with a lot of other teams, even if it means that suddenly the executive team takes a really big interest in the work that we're doing.

我们会把这看作是我们工作重要的标志，而不是阻碍我们完成工作的障碍。

We're gonna see that as signs that the work we're doing matters, not as things that are going to be an impediment to getting the work done.

正如你刚刚暗示的，即使你被要求去开发一个高管们非常兴奋的项目，但你认为它其实没有影响力，这也不是借口。

As you just kinda alluded to, there's a big implication here of even if you are told to build a thing that the execs are really excited about, that is low impact in your opinion, that's no excuse.

你最终还是会失业。

Still gonna get fired eventually.

即使他们明明告诉你去开发它。

Even though they're, like, telling you to build it.

这确实很糟糕。

It it sucks.

现实就是这样，事情往往就是这么发展的。

It's But that's how it goes.

说起来也挺有意思的。

And it's funny.

我曾在Mailchimp工作了三年，那段时间一直到Intuit收购他们为止，当时他们正处在一段非常值得关注的转型期：从单一产品公司转型为平台型公司，现在有很多公司都在经历这样的转型。

I worked with Mailchimp for three years leading up to their acquisition by Intuit, when they were on this really interesting journey of going from a single product company to a platform company, which is a journey that a lot of companies are on.

对吧？

Right?

他们曾在某个细分市场取得过成功，然后他们就说，不然这样吧？

Where they found success in one part of the market, and they say, you know what?

我们意识到跨业务线开展工作能带来额外价值，还能为用户提供一套可用的工具套件。

We recognize that there's a value add in working more horizontally, and giving people a suite of tools they can use.

我们想要打造这些工具，切实确保我们能满足中小企客户的需求。

We wanna build these tools, and really make sure that we are meeting the needs of our small and medium business customers.

所以我是在他们完成组织架构调整后不久被招进来的。

So I was brought on shortly after they did a reorg.

他们转向了领域模型。

They went into a domains model.

他们设立了不同的团队，每个团队负责营销平台不同部分的专家，负责开发新功能。

They had different teams that were supposed to be experts on different parts of this marketing platform that were building in new features.

他们的产品副总裁娜塔莉亚·威廉姆斯，后来成为了首席产品官，她说：‘我们这样做很棒，但我担心我们会忽视商业基本要素。’

And their VP product, Natalia Williams, who then became their CPO, you know, she said, this is great that we're doing this, but I'm worried that we're gonna lose sight of the commercial fundamentals.

对吧？

Right?

我们有这些团队在开发如此酷的东西，我们一直明确表示，我们对那些致力于新项目、构建这些新功能、拓展平台的团队感到兴奋。

We have these teams building this really cool stuff, and we've been so clear that we're excited about the teams that are working on initiative, that are building these new things, that are building out this platform.

但让我们确保我们依然专注于让整个平台健康、可持续地增长，确保在添加这些新功能和特性时，不会让平台变得过于拥挤和复杂，以至于用户难以从中获得价值。

But let's make sure we stay focused on on making sure that the entire platform grows in a healthy and sustainable way, and that as we are adding in these new features and functionalities, we're not making this so crowded and complicated that it's harder for people to get value out of it.

因此，她为产品团队设定了一个非常明确的目标。

So she set a very clear goal for the product team.

她希望提高成功发送第一封邮件的用户比例。

She wanted specific change in the rate of users who successfully send their first email.

她说，当我们开发这些新功能时，邮件仍然是用户进入的入口。

She was like, as we build these new things, email is still where people are coming in.

我们希望确保他们能够成功完成这个操作。

We wanna make sure that they can do this successfully.

她为整个产品团队设定了一个非常雄心勃勃的目标。

And she set a really ambitious goal for the entire product organization.

她向产品团队提出了这个目标，许多产品团队出于各种原因 understandably 对此感到犹豫。

And she put it forth to the product teams, and a lot of product teams were understandably hesitant to take this on for a number of reasons.

对吧？

Right?

他们说，如果我们搞砸了，这将是整个业务的商业核心。

They said, this is like, if we mess this up, that's the entire commercial heart of the business.

这风险太大了。

That's really risky.

另一些人说，这很好，但你知道，我们正在开发平台中那些非常重要的新部分。

Other ones said, well, that's great, but, you know, we we're building out these new parts of the platform that are really important.

我们不想冒风险拖慢这些工作的进度。

We don't wanna risk slowing those things down.

我曾与一位产品经理合作，他真正理解这件事的重要性。

There was one product manager I worked with who really understood how important this was.

那时，她已经参与过应用的多个不同模块的工作。

She had worked on enough different parts of the app at that point.

她曾隶属于增长团队，因此非常具备以用户为中心的思维，清楚如何达成我们所需的指标。

She had been on a growth team, so she really had that kind of user centric, how do we hit the metrics we need to hit mindset.

她来找我，说：‘我想确保我们能做好这件事，因为我担心如果我们不做，会发生什么。’

And and she came to me and she was like, I wanna make sure we do this because I'm worried about what'll happen if we don't do this.

对吧？

Right?

我不希望成为那个未能交付对业务最重要事项的产品团队。

I don't wanna be on the product team that failed to deliver what matters most to the business.

于是她与一些用户研究员合作，找到了用户卡壳的地方。

So she went and worked with some user researchers, and found where people were getting stuck.

她做了一项出色的研究，找出人们在发送第一封邮件之前卡在了哪里。

She did this amazing study finding where people were getting stuck before they sent that first email.

她召集了一群产品经理。

And she gathered together a group of product managers.

我永远不会忘记这一点。

I'll never forget this.

我当时在亚特兰大现场，她召集了一群产品经理，说：看，如果我们想要达成目标，这些就是我们需要解决的问题。

I was on-site in Atlanta, and she gathered together a group of product managers, and she was like, look, these are the things we need to fix if we're gonna hit this.

但如果我们解决了这些问题，我认为我们能做到。

But if we fix these things, I think we can do it.

我认为我们能够达到目标。

I think we can get there.

有一刻沉默，同样地，由于完全可以理解的原因，人们只是说：好吧。

And there was a moment of of silence where, again, for totally understandable reasons, people were like, okay.

你知道，这真是太好了。

You know, this is this is great.

我明白，但说实话，我有点担心，如果我们这么做，这位产品经理会环顾四周，然后说：你知道吗？

I see it, but, like, I'm I'm kind of afraid that if we do this and this product manager, I will never forget that she looks around the room, and she says, you know what?

如果你们不接手这件事，我会在你们的梦里缠着你们。

I am going to haunt all of you in your dreams if you do not take this on.

这对业务来说是最重要的事，大家都笑了。

This is the most important thing for the business, and everyone laughed.

这是一句很有力的话，但它是出于真诚的善意，某种程度上，它承认了大家对承担这项任务的恐惧。

It was a it was a strong comment, but it was a strong comment made in really good faith that in its own way, I think, acknowledged the fear that people had about taking this on.

她就像说：看。

She was like, look.

这真的很重要。

This is really important.

如果我们齐心协力，少关注一些限制、参数和各自领域的边界，更多地关注如何协作完成领导告诉我们最重要的事，我们就能做到。

And if we work together, if we care less about the constraints and parameters and, you know, borders of our domains and care more about how we work together to deliver the thing that our leader has told us is the most important thing for the business, we can get this done.

他们确实做到了，而且是通过做减法完成的。

And they did get it done, and they got it done through subtracting.

他们简化了用户体验。

They streamlined the experience.

他们移除了让用户卡住的步骤。

They took out steps that people were getting stuck on.

他们让事情变得更简单。

They made things easier.

他们做了那些通常不像传统功能发布那样被庆祝的事情。

They did the kinds of things that are rarely celebrated in the way that traditional feature launches were celebrated.

但由于他们对成功有着清晰、有力且具体的理解，他们能够主动承担这项工作，使产品更好、业务更好，这真是与一支优秀团队合作的精彩时刻。

But because they had this clear, impactful, specific sense of what success looks like, they were able to take on that work themselves, and it made the product better, made the business better, and it was just a great moment of working with with a great team.

这是一个很棒的例子。

That was an awesome example.

我喜欢这个例子多么像一段英雄之旅。

I love just how much of a hero's journey this this example is.

在这方面，做这件事需要很大的勇气，因为正如你所说，简单的方式就是：大家都让我们做这件事，我们就去开发这个功能。

Along those lines, it's interesting how much courage it takes to do this, because to your point, the easy thing is just, okay, everyone's just telling us to do this thing, we're gonna build this feature.

很好，很简单。

Great, easy.

我不必把自己暴露出来。

I don't have to put myself out there.

你在这里指出的是，你需要意识到自己所做的事情没有高影响力，并有勇气提出反对并建议其他方案。

And what you're pointing out there is it's up to you to recognize what you're doing is not high impact and to have courage to push back and suggest something else.

有趣的是，这不仅是勇气，也是一种对现实的彻底接受。

The funny thing is it's it's courage, but it's also a kind of radical acceptance of reality.

这场对话有着非常深刻的情感和哲学层面，因为我认为，人天生不愿意为超出自己控制范围的事情负责。

There's a very kind of emotional philosophical dimension to this conversation because I think it is inhuman nature to not want to be accountable for things outside of our control.

影响力不是我们能简单打勾列出来的。

Impact is not something we can just check off a list.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们真的致力于实现业务影响，那就意味着市场上可能发生的一些事情会影响我们。

If we're really working towards business impact, that means that there are things that might happen in the market that are going to affect us.

对吧？

Right?

我们的竞争对手可能会推出新产品。

Our competitors might launch something.

可能会发生疫情、战争，或者我们没预料到的其他事情。

There might be a pandemic or a war or something we didn't expect.

我们依赖客户改变行为、转化、升级，或做我们希望他们做的任何事情。

We are reliant upon customers to to change their behavior, to convert, or to upgrade, or to do whatever it is we hope they will do.

我用‘希望’这个词，是因为我们虽然可以尽力影响他们的行为，但无法简单地打个勾就完事。

I use the word hope because, again, we can do our best to influence that behavior, but we can't just check a box.

我认为，人们很自然地害怕为超出自己控制范围的事情承担责任。

And I think there is this very understandable human fear of being accountable for things that are beyond our control.

我太理解这种感受了。

I get that so hard.

但过去几年告诉我们，我们确实要为超出自己控制范围的事情负责。

But what I I think the last couple years have shown us is that we are accountable for things outside of our control.

我们所工作的企业的成功，最终超出了我们直接的控制范围，即使你遵循了所有最佳实践，拥有最高的效率，并且把所有所谓正确的事情都做到了。

The success of the businesses we work for is ultimately beyond our immediate control, and you can follow all the best practices and have the highest velocity and do everything, quote, unquote, right.

但如果公司倒闭了，他们不会说：‘是的，我们倒闭了，但我们会继续给你发两年工资，因为你的所有OKR都达到了0.6或0.7。’

But if your company goes out of business, they're not gonna say, yeah, we're going out of business, but we're gonna keep, you know, writing your paycheck for two years because you all of your OKRs were a point six or a point seven.

事情并不是这样运作的。

That's not how it works.

现实是，那些我们无法控制的事情会影响我们，而我认为，如果我们能真正接受这一点，反而会获得一种真正的自由。

The reality is that things outside of our control affect us, and I think that if we can internalize that, there's a real freedom in it.

我在研究这本书时最惊讶的一点是，那些商业导向的产品经理反而最开心，这完全出乎我的意料。

You know, the thing that surprised me most when I was researching this book is that the commercially minded PMs I interviewed were also the happiest, which I did not expect at all.

正如你所说，我来自音乐背景。

You know, as as you said, I come from a music background.

我原本以为那些商业人士会压力巨大，必须每天工作九十二小时，拼命达成目标，确保完成所有指标和数据。

I was expecting the the business people to be really stressed out and, like, I have to show up at work ninety two hours a day to crush it and make sure that we hit the metrics and and and crush the numbers.

但他们只是说：是的。

But they were just like, yeah.

我为一家公司工作，尽我所能，然后回家。

I work for a business, and I do the best I can, and then I go home.

你知道，我在工作时，我的职责是帮助公司成功。

You know, when I'm at work, my job is to help the business succeed.

我通过理解我们的商业模式，努力开展对业务目标有贡献的工作来实现这一点。

And I do that by understanding our business model, by trying to do work that contributes to what the business wants.

为了做到这一点，如果我的目标是真正影响层面的目标，我就必须了解我们的客户。

In order to do that, if my goals are really impact level goals, I have to learn about our customers.

我必须进行探索。

I have to do discovery.

我必须做所有这些我们 supposedly 应该做的事，不是因为它们是抽象的最佳实践，而是因为这才是打造成功产品的途径。

I have to do all these things that we're supposed to do, not because they're abstract best practices, but because that's how you build a successful product.

到了一天结束时，我不再与公司抗争，非要以正确的方式做产品，如果他们做不到，我也愿意为此拼命。

And then at the end of the day, you know, I'm not fighting my company to do product the right way, and if they can't do it the right way, I'll I'll you know, I'm willing to die on this hill.

说白了，我为一家公司工作。

It's like, I work for a company.

我无法做出每一个决定。

I don't get to make every decision.

有些事情是我无法控制的。

There are things outside of my control.

我会尽我所能，这样就能腾出一点精力去好好生活。

I'll do the best I can, and I get to free up a little bit of energy energy to live the rest of my life.

为了让你觉得没那么可怕，我很好奇你在这里会怎么回答。

To make this even less scary, hopefully, I'm curious what your answer is gonna be here.

你有没有发现，那些敢于迈出这一步、敢于反驳并试图改变团队思维方式和工作内容的人？

Do you find that people who take this leap and push back and try to change the way their teams are thinking and what they take on?

你有没有发现，即使他们失败了，即使没有产生影响、项目失败了，他们反而更受青睐，职业生涯反而更好，即使项目失败了，他们自己也发展得更好？

Do you find that even if they fail, even if the impact wasn't there and the project fails, they are seen more favorably and their career ends up doing better and they end up doing better even if the project fails?

我希望如此。

I hope so.

我总是非常清楚，这超出了我的控制范围，我不能说如果你做了这些事，就一定会得到上司的青睐。

I'm always super, again it's outside of my control, I can't say like if you do these things, then you will be looked favorably, you will be looked upon favorably by the people who manage you.

因为我不认识那些人，也许他们不会做出积极的反应。

Because I don't know those people and maybe they're not gonna react well.

也许他们并不总是理性的，事情也不总是如你所愿地发展。

Maybe they're not actually you know, people are not always rational, and these things don't always play out the way you hope they will.

我想说的是，在《以影响为先的产品团队》这本书里，有一个关于某人在一款约会应用公司工作的故事，他们被分配了一个有着明确且雄心勃勃的收入目标的项目。

What I will say is there's a story in the book in Impact-First Product Teams about somebody who worked for a dating app, and they were given a project to work on which had a very specific ambitious revenue goal.

但到了某个阶段，他们清楚地意识到，由于还需要处理其他事情，可能无法达成这个目标。

And at a certain point, it became clear that they were probably not going to be able to hit this because of other things they needed to do.

于是他们去找财务团队说：嘿。

So they went to the finance team and said, hey.

我们需要下调这个目标。

We have to adjust this down.

财务团队回答：是的。

And the finance team said, yeah.

当然应该调整。

Of course you do.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

让我们一起调整吧。

Let's adjust it down together.

如果他们没有主动迈出这一步，说明基于当前世界局势、市场动态和产品现状，他们不再相信能达成这个目标，但希望调整目标，以便公司整体能做出更准确的预测并合理分配资源，那场对话还会是同样的结果吗？

Would that conversation have played out the same way if they had not taken that step of saying proactively based on what is happening in the broader world, in the market, in our product, we no longer believe we are on track to hit this, but we want to adjust so that the company at large can make better predictions and resource things accordingly.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但我想，如果你秉持这样一种心态——有些事情超出了你的控制范围，而你的职责是从你所处的位置出发，尽己所能为企业的成功做贡献——那么，诚实地告诉企业你认为什么是可能的、会发生什么，远比退缩回避、说‘如果我们谈了，可能会惹麻烦，没人会相信我们’要有效得多。

But I think, again, if you are embracing that mindset that there are things outside of your control and your job is to do what you can from where you sit to contribute to the success of the business, I think you're certainly doing so much more by telling the business honestly what you think is possible and what's going to happen as opposed to stepping back from it and saying, like, oh, well, if we talk about it, we're gonna get in trouble, and nobody's gonna believe us.

而且，你知道，仅仅是隐瞒信息，就会造成它自己特有的伤害。

And, you know, that just that simple withholding of information does its own kind of harm.

所以我无法保证任何具体的结果。

So I can't guarantee any kind of outcomes.

我不能说，在所有情况下，这都会被以慷慨和宽容的态度接受，但我认为，这确实是该做的事。

I can't say, yes, this will be received with with with, you know, with generosity and grace in all cases, But I I think it's it's the right thing to do.

我的感觉是，要么你会因为替别人解决问题而获得更高的尊重，尤其是那些高层，你看到了他们应该看到的问题。

My sense is either you will be respected more highly because you're you're kind of solving problems for people that that like higher ups that you're seeing things that they should be seeing.

而且你说对了，他们会说：‘哇，真的吗？’

And you're right, and they're like, oh, wow.

马特太棒了。

Matt's amazing.

他看到了这一切，并做出了改变。

He saw all this stuff and changed.

或者你意识到，这家公司并不适合我。

Or you realize this is not the company for me.

他们根本不在乎这一点。

They're just not they don't value this.

他们只想让我交付这个小部件，这就是他们对我的全部要求。

They just want me to ship this widget, and that's all they want for me.

我为什么不能去别处做更多事呢？

Don't why why don't I could I could do I could do more somewhere else.

我觉得你刚才提到了一个非常重要的点，那就是当你理解了商业模式时，你就明白了你所在公司的真实世界伦理和优先事项。

I think you touched on something really important there, which is that when you understand the business model, you understand the real world ethics and priorities of the company you work for.

对吧？

Right?

如果你了解公司追求的是什么、真正重视的是什么，以及为了实现这些目标他们愿意做出哪些权衡和牺牲，这些信息比那些听起来很棒的使命宣言能告诉你更多东西。

If you understand what the company is optimizing for, what they really care about, what trade offs and sacrifices they're willing to make in order to achieve those goals, that tells you a lot more than the mission statement, which, you know, usually sounds great.

但如果你追踪资金流向、追踪决策过程，有时你会发现完全不同的画面。

But if you follow the money, if you follow the decision making, sometimes it paints a different picture.

我认为，你对商业模式的理解越深，越清楚这种价值交换是什么、交付了什么价值、提取了什么价值，你就越能更好地做出判断：如果我帮助公司取得成功，我会为此感到安心吗？

And I think the more you can understand how the business model works, what that value exchange is, what value is being delivered, what value is being extracted, That I think puts you in a better position to decide, you know, if I were to help the company achieve success, do I feel good about that?

我会觉得，如果这家公司实现了它的目标，世界就会变得更好吗？

Do I feel like this is a company that if it achieves its goals has made the world a better place or not?

你对商业模式理解得越透彻，就越能基于所有可获得的信息做出明智的决定，我认为是这样。

And the more you understand the business model, the better equipped you are to make those decisions with all the information available to you, I think.

这是一个非常重要的观点。

That's such an important point.

本期节目由Anthropic公司赞助播出，他们是Claude的开发团队。

Today's episode is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude.

我每天至少使用Claude十次。

I use Claude at least 10 times a day.

我用它来研究我的播客嘉宾，为我的播客和通讯稿构思标题，获取对我写作的反馈，还有各种其他用途。

I use it for researching my podcast guests, for brainstorming title ideas for both my podcast and my newsletter, for getting feedback on my writing, and all kinds of stuff.

就在上周，我准备采访一位非常资深的嘉宾时，我让Claude告诉我其他播客主持人曾经问过这位嘉宾哪些问题，以免我重复提问。

Just last week, I was preparing for an interview with a very fancy guest, and I had Claude tell me what are all the questions that other podcast hosts have asked this guest so that I don't ask them these questions.

你每周花多少时间来整合所有的用户研究洞察、客服工单、销售通话、实验结果和竞争对手情报？

How much time do you spend every week trying to synthesize all of your user research insights, support tickets, sales calls, experiment results, and competitive intel?

Claude能够处理极其复杂、多步骤的任务。

Claude can handle incredibly complex, multi step work.

你可以扔给它一份100页的战略文档，要求它提炼出见解，或者把所有的用户研究数据丢给它，让它找出其中的模式。

You can throw a 100 page strategy document at it and ask it for insights, or you can dump all your user research and ask it to find patterns.

借助Claude 4和新的集成功能，包括全球最顶尖的编程模型Claude 4 Opus，你将获得语音对话、高级研究能力、直接集成Google Workspace，以及现在支持MCP连接你的自定义工具和数据源。

With Claude four and the new integrations, including Claude four Opus, the world's best coding model, you get voice conversations, advanced research capabilities, direct Google Workspace integration, and now MCP connections to your custom tools and data sources.

Claude 已经成为你工作流程的一部分。

Claude just becomes part of your workflow.

如果你想试试，可以访问 claude.ai/lenny 开始使用。

If you wanna try it out, get started at claude.ai/lenny.

使用这个链接，你可以在前三个月享受专业版高达 50% 的折扣。

And using this link, you get an incredible 50% off your first three months of the pro plan.

就是 claude.ai/lenny。

That's claude.ai/lenny.

好的。

Okay.

那么，我们来聊聊到底该怎么做。

So let's shift to talking about how to actually what to do.

这是一种无论你公司如何运作都可以采取的行动理念。

It's kind of this concept of actions you can take regardless of how your company operates.

这一点非常重要。

And that first part is really important.

我注意到你非常坚持的一点是，你不会让人有借口不去推进这件事。

Something that I've seen you big on is you don't let people have an excuse for not pushing on this.

我们之前也以其他方式讨论过这一点，但也许你可以再多分享一下：无论你的公司如何运作，你都没有理由不去深入思考这个问题并尝试做出改变。

And we've talked about this in other ways, but just maybe share more of just like, you don't have an excuse no matter how your company operates to not think deeply about this and try to make change.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，大多数产品经理所工作的公司并不是大型科技公司。

I mean, the reality is that most companies that product managers work at aren't big tech companies.

当我与这些公司的产品团队合作时，比如保险公司、银行、快消品公司，或者我之前合作过的一家生产音频设备的公司——这对我来说当然非常有趣——他们通常第一句话就是：‘我们没办法正确地做产品，因为我们是受监管的行业，或者我们是B2B，或者我们必须达成季度盈利目标。’

And when I work with product teams at those companies, at insurance companies, or at banks, or at CPG companies, or I worked with a company a while ago that makes audio equipment, which was obviously really fun for me, The first thing they usually tell me is, well, you know, we can't do product the right way because we're a regulated industry or because we're b two b or because we have these quarterly earnings targets we need to hit.

这总让我有点难过，因为确实，从某种角度看，你可能会说：‘好吧。’

And that always makes me a little sad because, yes, there's a way of looking at it where you can say, alright.

如果这五家知名公司能正确地做产品管理，那么任何让我们与这些公司情况不同的因素，就意味着我们做产品管理的方式是错的——这种想法令人沮丧，也让人焦虑，又会让人陷入一种不切实际的战斗，比如‘我必须把一家银行变成搜索引擎’，这显然是不可能的。

If these five famous companies do product management the right way, then anything that puts us in a different situation from those companies must mean that we're doing product management the wrong way, which is demoralizing and distressing, and again, leads people to these kind of quixotic battles of, like, I have to turn a bank into a search engine, which is not gonna happen.

但另一种看待方式是，这些限制恰恰就是做产品管理的方式。

But the other way of looking at it is that those constraints are how you do product management.

这些才是引导你做出商业决策的关键。

Those are what guide you to the commercial decisions you should be making.

如果你受到监管，你的竞争对手也同样受到监管。

If you're regulated, your competitors are regulated too.

如果你能真正理解这些限制，并学会在其中高效运作，这将为你的业务带来巨大的商业优势。

If you can really understand those constraints, figure out how to work well within them, that's a huge commercial advantage for your business.

如果你是B2B企业，我真心在很多情况下更喜欢与B2B公司合作，因为它们能直接接触到客户，可以迅速理解客户和用户的整体系统以及这些要素之间的关联，这种理解是直接且可操作的。

If you're b to b, I honestly prefer working with b to b companies in a lot of situations because they have such immediate access to their customers, and they can understand the whole system of their customers and their users and how these things connect in a way that's really immediate and actionable.

同样，如果你们公司有季度财务目标要达成，恭喜你。

Similarly, if your company has quarterly financial targets to hit, congratulations.

你知道业务真正关心的是什么。

You know what the business really cares about.

你不需要再费力去寻找更远的目标。

You don't have to go looking much farther than that.

如果你能做那些直接服务于公司最核心关切的工作，就不一定非要把目标层层分解成10个层级、45个OKR。

You don't necessarily need to cascade that 10 different levels into 45 OKRs if you can do work that you know feeds directly into what the company cares about the most.

所以，是的，这些确实是约束，但它们正是塑造我们工作的约束。

So, yes, these things are are constraints, but they are the constraints that shape the work that we do.

如果我们将其视为如此，把它们当作指引而非限制，如果我们说，我们是在与商业现实合作，而不是对抗，那么我们可以做的事情就太多了。

And if we embrace them as such, if we treat them as guides, not restrictions, if we say, like, we're working with, not against, the commercial realities of our business, there's so much we can do.

产品经理、产品负责人、项目经理，以及每个组织中所有从事产品工作的人，如果我们再次选择与我们所服务公司的现实合作，而非对抗，就能做很多事情。

There's so much that product managers and product owners and project managers that everybody working on product at every organization can do if we again work with, not against, the realities of the companies we work for.

好的，我觉得这真的很有激励性。

Okay, so I think that's really empowering.

你并不是说你需要改变你们公司构建产品的方式。

You're not saying you need to change the way product is built at your company.

这取决于你。

It's up to you.

你是一个ICPM。

You're an ICPM.

这取决于你。

It's up to you.

别找借口。

No excuses.

你实际上想表达的内容，用一个简单的方式怎么描述呢？我觉得这会让人们感觉更

What's a simple way to describe what you're actually saying, which I think is gonna make people feel a

好一些。

lot better?

我真正想说的是，你以为自己在对抗的那些东西，通常正是赋予你工作形态的因素，只要你允许

What I'm actually saying is that the things you think you're fighting against are usually the things that are giving your work shape if you let

它们存在。

them be.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我们来谈谈你提出的三个步骤。

Let's talk about you you have three steps.

三个实用的步骤，帮助你打造更以影响力为导向的产品团队。

Three handy steps to become more of an Impact-First Product Team.

那我们来逐一讨论一下。

So let's talk through them.

对。

Yeah.

第一步是什么？

What is step one?

是的。

Yeah.

第一步，也是我认为最重要的一步，我的大部分工作都围绕这一点展开，那就是将团队目标与公司目标紧密对齐。

So the first step, and and I think the most important and where a lot of my work plays out, is in setting team goals close to company goals.

不要超过一步之遥，必须贴近公司目标。

No more than one step away from company goals.

这个理念来自克里斯蒂娜·沃特克的《极端专注》一书。

This idea comes from Christina Wodtke's book, Radical Focus.

她在你的播客中有一期精彩访谈，我来之前刚重看了一遍，为的是获取灵感。

She had a great episode on your podcast that I just rewatched for inspiration before I came on here.

不错的方法。

Nice move.

但在那本书中，她有一个图示，说明大多数公司处理级联OKR的方式是多层次的：顶层是公司目标，然后是部门目标、大团队目标、小团队目标，再往下是更小的团队目标，这就导致了我之前描述的那种情况——你无法把这些小团队目标重新汇总回公司目标。

But in that book, she has this visual where she says that most companies approach cascading OKRs as kind of this multilevel, like, at the top is company goals, then department goals, then big team goals, then small team goals, and smaller team goals, which leads to the very situation I described where you can't add those small team goals back up to the company goals.

她用一个图示来对比这种做法，把公司目标比作引力中心，而其他每个团队目标都围绕它在单一层次上运行。

She has a visual that she compares that to, which is like the company goal as a center of gravity and then every other team goal orbiting one level around it.

当我第一次看到这个图示时，我深受震撼，因为无论你使用的是OKR、KPI还是北极星指标，只要你用得好，它看起来都会是这样。

And this blew my mind when I saw it for the first time Because whether you're doing OKRs or KPIs or North Star metrics, whatever framework you're ostensibly using, if you use it well, it looks like that.

我之前曾与一个金融科技公司的传统功能团队合作过。

I worked with a team a while ago that was a traditional feature team at a fintech company.

他们就像我在Mailchimp时合作的团队一样，负责接收新功能需求，把产品逐步打造成一个多产品平台。

They were the team that was kind of like the team I worked with at Mailchimp, of given new features to build to take this product and build it more into a multiproduct platform.

业务方会说：去把这个功能做出来。

And the business would say, go build this.

他们就去做了。

They build it.

他们会庆祝。

They'd celebrate.

他们会说：去开发这个功能。

They'd say, go build this.

他们会开发出来。

They'd build it.

他们会庆祝。

They'd celebrate.

然后业务方说：我们现在要稍微改变一下做法。

And then the business said, okay, we're going to do things a little bit differently now.

现在我们有了一个总收入目标。

Now we have this top line revenue target.

我们希望明年赚更多的钱，希望你们告诉我们你们将如何为这个目标做出贡献。

We want to make this much more money next year, and we want you to tell us how you're going to contribute to this.

这对这个团队来说是一次非常具有挑战性的对话，因为尽管很多人抱怨自己是功能工厂，但这种模式确实让人感觉更安全。

And this was a really challenging conversation for this team because as much as people complain about being feature factories, again, it feels safer.

对吧？

Right?

那样更容易掌控。

There's more control over that.

如果你被指定了要构建什么，你对是否能完成它有更多控制权，但对它是否能产生收入则控制得少得多。

If you're told what to build, you have a lot more control over whether or not you build it than you do over whether or not it generates revenue.

于是我们开始进行这样的对话。

So we started having this conversation.

你知道，我们应该使用什么框架？

You know, what what framework should we use?

我们该怎么做？

How should we do this?

我当时问的问题并不好。

And I I I was not asking very good questions.

说实话，我当时也有点慌了。

I was kind of panicking too, to be honest.

然后我问了他们。

And then I asked them.

我当时想，好吧。

I was like, okay.

这个团队存在的理由是什么？

Why does this team exist?

对吧？

Right?

我们为什么要做这件事？

Why do we why are we doing this at all?

为什么公司要投资这么大一个团队来开发这么多功能？

Like, why is the business investing in this big team to build all these features?

我们为什么要在单产品公司和多产品平台公司之间做区分？

Why do we care if we're a single product company or a multiproduct platform company?

其中一位团队负责人说：哦，实际上，使用多产品的用户的客户生命周期价值远高于只使用单产品的用户。

And one of the team leaders said, oh, well, actually, the customer lifetime value of a multiproduct user is much higher than that of a single product user.

我当时就想，哦，我们知道高出多少吗？

I was like, oh, do we know how much higher?

他们说，是的。

And they said, yeah.

我们其实有具体的数据。

We actually have a number on that.

我当时就想，哇。

And I was like, wow.

所以，如果我们有一个目标，就是把一定数量的单一产品用户转化为多产品用户，我们就清楚潜在的收入有多少。

So, like, if we had a goal of converting a certain number of single product users to multiproduct users, we know exactly how much revenue is on the line.

他们说，是的。

They were like, yeah.

我想是吧。

I guess so.

所以我们能够设定一个目标。

So we were able to set a goal.

从那之后，我们就展开了讨论，大概就是说，我们要达到一个什么样的数字，才能让大家觉得这个团队是值得投入的？

And from there, we had this conversation about, you know, what's the number we would need to hit to make this team feel like a good investment?

最后我们确定了一个具体数值，在那一年剩下的时间里，这个团队做的每一个决策都以这个数字为依据。

And we came to a specific number, and that number informed every decision that was made by that team for the rest of the year.

我们定下目标，到年底要完成这么多单产品用户向多产品用户的转化，因为只要达成这个目标，就能带来这么多额外收入，为公司的年度总营收目标贡献出相应的份额。

We said by the end of the year, we need to convert this many single product users to multiproduct users because if we do that, there's this much additional revenue, which contributes this much to the company's top line revenue goal.

就差这么一步就能理清楚了。

It's one step away.

后来他们把这个目标汇报给公司管理层的时候，领导层立刻就通过了。

And when they went and shared that goal with company leadership, they got it right away.

完全没人需要问出‘这个目标的价值是什么？’这类问题。

They didn't have to say, well, why is this valuable?

也没人要求他们说‘你们还有哪些其他的目标与关键成果？’

They didn't have to say, what are your other OKRs?

更没人要求他们出示汇报用的演示文稿。

Show us the deck.

他们明白了。

They got it.

这给了他们极大的自由度，可以做出更大胆的决策，更紧密地与其他团队合作，并争取所需的资源。

And that gave them so much leeway to make bolder decisions, to work more closely with other teams, to ask for the resources they needed.

而这种达成目标的过程——那个既具有影响力、具体明确，又与公司最关心的事物只差一步之遥的目标——可能是我最近与团队合作时花费时间最有价值的方式。

And that process of of arriving at that goal, that goal that is impactful and specific and one step away from what the company cares about the most, is probably the the most valuable way I have spent my time with teams of late.

因为一旦你达成了这个目标，你就能看到其他所有事情是如何由此自然展开的。

Because once you get to that, you see how everything else flows from there.

这里的含义是，如果目标离帮助人们理解‘你们到底在做什么来推动业务’太远，那就是你需要避免的问题。

And the implication here is that if it's too far away from helping from people understanding what the hell are you guys even doing to help the business, that's the problem you wanna avoid.

没错。

So Exactly.

比如一个极端情况是：我不知道。

Like so one extreme is I don't know.

比如，你的团队完全拥有和公司一样的目标，这可能并不合理。

Like, it probably doesn't make sense for your team to have exactly the same goal as the company.

假设你的公司正试图

Say your company's trying

实现增长

to grow

一亿美元的收入。

a 100,000,000 revenue.

对吧？

Right?

这不可能成为你们团队的目标。

Like, that's not gonna be your team's goal.

所以，在这种极端情况下，什么才是离它一步之遥的目标？

So it's almost like at that extreme is what's one step away from that?

你们对这个公司目标的贡献是什么？

What's your contribution to that company goal?

另一个极端则是深入到第十层细节。

The other end is just like some 10 level deep.

我们将改进这个随机步骤的转化率，这会推动这个东西增长，进而带动那个增长，最终提升收入。

We're gonna improve conversion of this random step, which is gonna grow this thing, which grows that, and then that grows revenue.

没错。

Exactly.

关于团队的目标，你对以收入为导向的目标有什么建议？

What is your guidance on revenue based goals as goals for teams?

你知道吗，我认为，这还得视情况而定。

You know, I think, again, it depends.

我知道很多人对团队是否应该或不应该设定以收入为导向的目标有非常强烈的意见。

I I know people have very strong opinions about teams should always or should never have revenue based goals.

我觉得没那么简单。

I don't think it's that simple.

我认为，有时候确实如此，如果公司正朝着收入目标努力，那么设定以收入为导向的目标是有意义的，至少要能用收入来衡量团队工作的价值。

I think sometimes, yes, if your company is working towards revenue, having a revenue based goal makes sense, or at least being able to put some value in terms of revenue on the work that your team is doing.

我曾与一些初创公司合作过，它们目前并不追求收入，因为当务之急是增长。

I've worked with some startups where they actively are not going after revenue because right now, the name of the game is growth.

对吧？

Right?

他们想证明自己有足够的用户，以便进行下一轮融资。

They wanna show that they have enough users to raise that next round of investment.

我确实与一家初创公司合作过，他们的收入在增长，用户数量也在增加。

I actually worked with one startup where their revenue was going up, and their number of users was going up.

我们必须进行一场非常有趣的讨论，探讨究竟哪一个指标对我们的投资者更重要，最终我们制定了两种情景：高增长情景和低增长情景。

And we had to have a really interesting conversation around which one actually matters to our investors, and we kind of wound up developing these two scenarios, the high growth scenario and the low growth scenario.

与产品团队沟通后，很明显他们根本不可能实现高增长情景。

And talking to the product team, it was really clear that there was, like, no way they were gonna hit the high growth scenario.

于是他们转向专注于盈利，以延长资金使用周期，并作为一家规模较小但拥有可持续收入基础的企业进行下一轮融资。

So they pivoted to focus on profitability so they could build more runway and raise that next round as a smaller business with a sustainable revenue base.

所以我理解为什么人们不愿意设定收入目标。

So I get why people are hesitant to commit to revenue goals.

我认为确实存在一些情况，收入目标过于宽泛，或者并不完全符合企业的实际需求。

I think that there are certainly situations where revenue goals would be too broad or not exactly what the business needs.

但归根结底，金钱是衡量大多数团队影响力的方式。

But at the end of the day, money is how the impact of most teams is going to be measured.

如果你无法阐明为什么你的团队是一个好的投资对象——无论是因为它带来的金钱回报，还是因为它为公司带来的同等甚至更重要的其他回报——那么这无疑是一种脆弱且高风险的状态。

And if you don't have a point of view on why your team is a good investment, either in the money return it brings or in another return that is equally or more important to the business, then again, that feels like a tenuous and risky position to be in.

为了引导大家的思维朝着正确的方向思考，你能举一些好的目标例子吗？比如那些与公司目标只差一步的特定目标？

To kinda get people's brains noodling in the right direction, what are some examples of good goals, like specific goals that your teams have set that are one step away from a company goal?

能举一些不涉及具体公司的例子吗？

What are just some examples without naming companies?

我有一个相关的故事，这个故事也能引出第二步，那就是在每一步都保持以影响力为先。

I have a a story to tell to that effect, which also sets up the second step here, which is to keep impact first at every step.

我曾与一家深受大众喜爱的科技公司的增长团队合作，当时我被邀请去帮助他们设定OKR。

So I worked with a growth team at a tech company that that is beloved by many people, and I was brought on to help them set OKRs.

对吧？

Right?

这家公司正在全公司推行OKR，而这个团队正要制定自己的增长OKR。

The company was doing OKRs across the board, and this team was going to set its growth OKRs.

他们做了大量阅读和研究，学习如何正确地制定OKR。

So they had done a lot of reading, a lot of research into how to do OKRs the right way.

他们读了很多资料，但不幸的是，他们没读过《激进专注》，否则他们可能会采取不同的做法。

They had read unfortunately, they had not read Radical Focus, or they hopefully would have done things differently.

他们读了很多其他书籍。

They had read a lot of other books.

他们打印了大量文章，并说：‘我们要确保把这件事做对。’

They printed out a lot of articles, and they said, you know, we're gonna make sure we get this right.

我们要制作一个幻灯片，包含五到七个目标，每个目标下有五到七个关键结果，每个关键结果都会指定负责人。

We're gonna put together a slide deck that has five to seven objectives with five to seven key results each, and each key result is gonna have an owner.

我们要确保每个人对此负责，我们要真正、真正地把这件事做对。

And we're gonna make sure that people are accountable for it, and we're gonna really, really do this the right way.

我们要把中间那部分做到完美。

We're gonna get that middle piece perfect.

于是他们花了很长时间来制定这些OKR。

So they spent a long time working on these OKRs.

OKR周期结束了。

OKR season ends.

他们把OKR演示文稿归档起来，直到下一个OKR周期才再打开。

They file away the OKR deck not to be seen until the next OKR season.

我们重新聚在一起，花了一整天时间评估所有的OKR。

We reconvene and spend a whole day scoring all of the OKRs.

对吧？

Right?

关于什么是0.6分、什么是0.7分，展开了激烈的讨论。

And there are heated conversations about what's a point six versus a point seven?

这个算0.9分吗？

Is this a point nine?

这个关键结果的负责人到底应该是谁？

Who really should be the owner of this key result?

谁对它贡献最大？

Who contributed the most to it?

然后，你知道，我们终于熬过了整个讨论。

And, you know, we we get through this whole conversation.

大家都累了，而我只想问一个问题。

Everyone's tired, and and I'm like, I I there's just one question I need to ask.

真的很抱歉这么折腾大家，但这一切怎么才能对齐公司的整体增长目标呢？

I'm so sorry to do this to y'all, but how does this all add up to the company level growth goals?

人们彼此环顾了一下。

People kinda look around.

他们说：‘呃，我们没这么做过。’

They're like, well, that that wasn't what we did.

我们只是设定了团队级别的OKR，走了一遍流程，确保遵守了OKR。

Like, we set our team level OKRs, and we went through the process, and we made sure and and we we followed the OKRs.

我们认真思考了这些OKR。

We thought about the OKRs.

我说，是的。

And I said, yeah.

但公司有一个目标，我们姑且称之为今年吸引一百万新用户。

But the the company has a a goal of let's call it bringing on a million new users in this year.

我们是一个增长团队。

We're a growth team.

我们带来了多少用户？

How many users did we bring on?

现场陷入了一阵沉默。

And there there's a moment of silence.

我是这个团队的领导者。

I'm a leader of this team.

她是一位非常非常优秀的领导者。

It's a really, really good leader.

她站起来说，好吧。

She stands up and she's like, okay.

我们要改变做法了。

We're gonna do things differently.

她走到白板前，在白板右端写下100万，然后画了一条线。

She steps up to the whiteboard, puts 1,000,000 on the right end of the whiteboard, draws a line.

这就是今年。

This is the year.

她在那条线上画了一个小标记。

Draws a little tick on the line.

这就是我们目前的位置。

This is where we are now.

这个数字比一百万小得多。

It's a smaller number than a million.

这就是我们需要达到的目标。

This is where we need to get to.

如果我们的对话不从这一点开始，我就不想继续谈下去。

If our conversation doesn't start with this, I don't wanna have the conversation.

如果你有51%的把握认为另一种方法能让我们更接近1%，我就希望你能积极倡导这种做法。

And if you are 51% sure that a different approach is gonna get us 1% closer, I expect you to advocate for that approach.

这就是我们现在做事的方式。

And this is now how we are going to do everything.

我一直在想这个问题，因为它减少了步骤。

I think about that all the time because it's subtracting steps.

对吧？

Right?

它让事情变得更简单了。

It's making things less complicated.

它实际上正是你所描述的那样。

It actually is doing exactly what you described.

它意味着：这就是公司所重视的。

It's saying like, this is what the company cares about.

我们是增长团队。

We're the growth team.

我们需要弄清楚，我们所做的每一件事如何为这一点做出贡献。

We need to figure out how everything we're doing contributes to this.

这个故事让我印象深刻，因为看起来这本该是显而易见的。

And that story really stuck with me because it seems like it should be obvious.

对吧？

Right?

如果你是公司里以增长为目标的增长团队，显然这会是你关心的重点。

If you're the growth team at a company with a growth goal, obviously, that's gonna be something you care about.

但在日常工作中，设定这些中间目标、制定策略、做我们那些让事情变得比必要更复杂的事情时，实在太容易了。

But it's so easy in the day to day work of setting these intermediate goals, of doing strategy, of doing the things we do to make things just a little bit more complicated than they need to be.

因此，对于这个特定的团队和这个特定的时刻，一个好的目标就是审视公司层面的目标，并说：既然我们是推动增长的团队，我们就对这一点负责。

So for this particular team and this particular moment, a good goal was looking at the company level goal and saying, if we're the team that's driving growth, we're accountable for this.

我们会主动承担起责任，尽一切努力确保公司实现其目标。

We're gonna step up, and we're gonna do everything we can to make sure the company meets its ambition.

这太明显了。

And it's so obvious.

你知道，如果你从你之前分享的视角来看，如果你是首席执行官，那么嘿。

You know, if you're if you come at it from the perspective you shared earlier, if you're the CEO, well, hey.

你会资助这个团队吗？

Would you fund this team?

比如，如果我们目标是一百万用户，这个团队能为我们带来十万用户，假设对你来说这已经很多了。

Like, if you see our goal is a million users, this team will drive us a 100,000 users, assuming that's a lot for you.

显然我们希望这个团队表现优异，我们会为他们提供资源，因为他们会对实现这一目标做出实质性贡献。

Obviously we want that team to do great, we're gonna give them the resources to do that because they're gonna contribute meaningfully to this goal.

正如你所看到的，这非常显而易见。

It's very obvious as you see it.

难点在于，很多人以为自己在这么做，其实并没有。

The trick is a lot of people think they are doing that and they're not.

当你在谈论这个话题时，我想到的一个可能的判断标准是：你怎么知道自己是否在这么做？应该有一个非常简单的电子表格公式，比如：这是公司的目标。

One maybe one heuristic I think about as you're talking is just like, how do you know if you're doing this is there should be a very simple spreadsheet formula of just here's the company goal.

这是你的目标。

Here's your goal.

应该有一个简单的公式，能直接向上推导并加总到公司目标。

There should be like one simple formula that translates up that adds to it.

我通常会用一个‘为什么’陈述或一个数学运算符来思考这个问题。

One why statement and or one mathematical operator is usually the way I think about it.

就是这样。

There we go.

在某些情况下，比如我提到的那家金融科技公司，就是‘升级用户’这样的指标。

In some cases, like the story I told about that fintech company, it's something like upgraded users.

这是一步。

That's one step.

对吧？

Right?

你再把这个数字乘以客户生命周期价值的提升。

You multiply that by the increased customer lifetime value.

在某些情况下，它只是同一件事的更小单位。

In some cases, it's a smaller unit of the same thing.

所以它是公司试图实现的收入或增长中的一部分。

So it's a subset of the revenue or growth that the company is trying to deliver.

我最近与一家公司合作，他们正在重组自己的广告技术平台。

I worked with a company recently that had a team rebuilding their ad tech platform.

这是一家规模很大的公司，业务多元，而他们所有不同产品的核心都是这个广告技术平台。

This is a big company that does a lot of different things, and at the heart of all of their different offerings is this ad tech platform.

我被邀请来为这家公司举办一天的工作坊，因为这个团队非常重要，但他们正难以界定什么是成功。

And I was brought on to do a day long workshop with this company because this was a really important team, and they were struggling to figure out what success looked like.

于是我便说，好吧。

So I said, okay.

你们的目标是什么？

What are your goals?

他们说：这是我们的目标演示文稿。

And they said, here's the deck with our goals.

我说：这么多目标啊。

And I said, that's a lot of goals.

光靠这些目标，我没法做决策。

I I wouldn't be able to make decisions with those goals.

他们说，等等。

They said, oh, wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

不。

No.

我们还有一个Miro白板，因为我们之前做过一次，觉得PPT内容太多了，所以又弄了个Miro白板。

We also have a Miro board because we went through this, and we decided the deck was too much, so we also have a Miro board.

但Miro白板通常都会不断扩展，向各个方向蔓延。

But as Miro boards tend to do, it kind of grew and grew and grew in all directions.

所以现在它变成了一个很大的Miro白板。

So now it's a big Miro board.

结果发现他们有两个Miro白板，因为他们已经尝试过两次了。

Turned out they had two Miro boards because they had tried to do this twice.

所以我们坐下来，进行了一次非常有趣的减法练习，每个人拿到一张便利贴，写下他们认为团队最重要的目标。

So we sat down, and we did this really interesting kind of subtractive exercise where everybody got a Post it note to write down what they think the most important goal of the team is.

然后他们两两配对，每次都要让目标变得更小。

And then they would pair up, and they would have to make it smaller each time.

让它更简洁。

Make it more concise.

如果有两件事，就缩减成一件事。

If there were two things, get it down to one thing.

如果有十个词，就缩减到八个词。

If there were 10 words, bring it down to eight words.

每次都要让它更小、更简洁。

Make it smaller and more concise each time.

我们最终得出了两个选项。

And we came up with two options.

一个是：打造一个卓越、精彩、神奇、美丽的平台，将我们团队的利润提升20%。

One was, you know, build a fantastic, wonderful, magical, beautiful platform to increase our team's profits by 20%.

说得通。

Fair enough.

另一个是打造一个卓越、出色、神奇的平台，将我们团队在下一个财年的利润从2000万英镑提升至1亿英镑。

The other one was build a stupendous, wonderful, fantastic platform to increase our team's profits in the next financial year from £20,000,000 to a £100,000,000.

我看着这两个选项，心想：好吧。

And I'm looking at these, and I'm like, okay.

所以我们知道，这里对收入是有预期的。

So we we know that there is an expectation of revenue here.

对吧？

Right?

大家期望我们能推动盈利。

There's an expectation that we will drive profitability.

但其中一个增长20%，另一个却增长500%。

But one of these is 20%, the other is 500%.

这些数字是从哪里来的？

Where do these numbers come from?

那些提出20%的人觉得，这个回报率已经不错了。

And, you know, the the folks who had said 20%, they were like, that that feels like a good return.

对吧？

Right?

有趣的是，最近我讲这个故事时，人们会笑说，他们是不是把数字说错了，但其实他们敢这么说真的很勇敢。而正是他们提出20%这个数字，才真正开启了团队层面的讨论——因为房间里有人听到了，然后说：等等。

And what's interesting was, you know, when I was telling the story when I was giving some talks recently, and people would kinda laugh like, oh, they named the wrong number, but like, they were so brave to do that, And them saying 20% is what actually unlocked the conversation at the team level because somebody else in the room heard that and said, wait.

我记得关于利润的事。

I do remember something about profits.

我们当时有个目标要达成，但我记得那个数字要大得多。

There was some target we were supposed to hit, but I think I remember it being a lot bigger than that.

他们后来回去翻查了VP曾经做过的一次全员大会，发现在那场大会的某张幻灯片里，藏着一个目标：下一个财年末实现一亿英镑的利润。

And they actually went back and found a town hall that their VP had given, and buried in a slide in that town hall was this £100,000,000 profit target by the end of the next financial year.

于是他们看到这个数字，心里一惊。

So they have this number, and they start to go like, oh gosh.

这数字也太大了。

That's a lot.

但你知道，这可是整整一个财年。

Like but, you know, it's a whole financial year.

会没事的。

It'll be fine.

而且，受到我那位领导的启发，我把这个写在了白板上。

And we do again, inspired by that leader I work with, I just put this out on a whiteboard.

我说，好吧。

I'm like, alright.

下一个财年末实现一亿美元的利润。

A 100,000,000 in profits by the end of the next financial year.

我们现在在这里。

Right now, we're here.

这个时间线上还应该有什么？

What else should be on this timeline?

有人说，我们十月要推出这个项目。

Somebody said, well, we're launching this in October.

所以我把十月写在了上面。

So I put October up there.

我说，好的。

I go, okay.

所以如果我们直到十月才推出任何产品，而现在是三月，那到那时我们能赚多少利润？

So if we don't ship anything until October, and right now it's March, how much profit do we make until then?

我说，大约一千万。

And I said, about 10,000,000.

好的。

Okay.

这意味着从十月到次年三月，我们需要创造九千万英镑的利润。

So so that means that between October and March, we need to generate £90,000,000 of profits.

我担心这个团队会吓坏，或者会说：‘我们做不到这个。’

And this team, I was worried they were gonna freak out, or they were gonna be like, oh, we can't do this.

这不可能。

It's impossible.

但他们只是说，好的。

But they they were like, okay.

是时候挺身而出了。

It's time to step up.

是时候做我们该做的所有事情了。

It's time to do all these things that we need to do.

我们需要提前发货。

We need to ship sooner.

我们需要做更多验证。

We need to do more validation.

我们需要做更多测试。

We need to do more testing.

我们能更早地实现商业化吗？

Can we commercialize things sooner?

我们能做更多探索，以确保这真的能产生我们所需的影响吗？

Can we do more discovery to make sure that this is really gonna have the impact we need to have?

我们为什么要进行这次大规模的重新发布？

Why are we doing this whole big relaunch?

我们为什么不逐一重建各个部分呢？

Why don't we rebuild individual things?

如果我们现在把更多人引入漏斗顶部，会产生什么影响？

What impact will we have if we brought more people in top of funnel now?

我们能否先建立用户基础，然后再升级这个用户群体？

Can we begin building our user base and then upgrade that user base?

如果我们这么做，而不是直接引入更多人，会有什么权衡？

What are the trade offs if we do that versus if we bring people?

我认为这些最佳实践的核心和初衷，正是由于这个团队有清晰的目标才得以实现的。

All those things that that I think is is really the the heart and the intent of these best practices, they came to life because this team had clarity.

他们明白，好的。

They understood, okay.

我们对某些具体且足以推动紧迫感的目标负责，这些目标也足够重要，迫使我们必须走出去，完成所有应该做的事情。

We are accountable for something which is specific enough to drive some real urgency and which is impactful enough that we have to get out there and do all these things that we're supposed to do.

所以，你知道，对我来说，这是一个很好的例子，说明如果你从这个问题开始：这个团队被期望做什么？

So, you know, that to me is a really good example of how if you start with this question of, like, what is what's expected of this team?

我们的成功是什么样子的？

What does success look like for us?

它通常会引导你找到合适的衡量指标范围，让你看清业务对你的意义，无论是直接关注收入，还是关注其他方面。

It'll often lead you to kind of the right kind of neighborhood of what kind of unit of measure you wanna look for, how the business is gonna look to you, whether they're looking directly at revenue, whether they're looking at something else.

好的，这些故事太棒了。

Okay, these stories are awesome.

所以，到目前为止，你所展示的正确做法的两个步骤。

So basically, so far, the two steps that you've illustrated here of doing this correctly.

第一步是设定与公司目标贴近的团队目标。

Step one is set team goals that are close to company goals.

第二步是在产品构建过程的每个阶段都这样做。

And then step two is do this at every step of the product building process.

这不仅仅是在一开始一次性完成的事情。

It's not just a one time thing at the beginning.

对。

Right.

在你做OKR时，比如我提到的那个团队，当你思考公司战略、撰写史诗故事或其他任何事情时，都要始终牢记这个有影响力的目标。

As you're doing OKRs, like that team I talked about, when you're thinking about your company strategy, when you're writing epics, whatever it is, keep that impactful goal top of mind.

别让它溜走。

Don't let it slip away.

别让它被层层分解而最终消失。

Don't let it get cascaded into oblivion.

因为正如你所说，你分享的那些例子中，你可能会觉得：‘我们已经有目标了，搞定。’

Because to your point, the examples you shared where you think you're like, you're just like, cool.

我们有目标了。

We have our goal.

出发吧。

Let's go.

然后你花了好几个月做这件事，却忘了：‘哦，对了。’

And then you spend months doing this thing, and then you forget, okay.

这实际上与公司目标脱节了，没错。

This actually got disconnected from the company goal, and Exactly.

你辛苦做的一切，结果却没人关心。

Everything you've worked hard to do is just so we don't care.

好的。

Okay.

第三步是什么？

What is step three?

第三步是把每一项工作都与影响力联系起来。

Step three is to connect every bit of work back to impact.

所以，这就是我们谈到优先级排序的时候了，对吧？

So this is when we get to the prioritization piece, right?

影响评估在产品管理领域有很多很好的论述，但很容易被忽视。

So impact estimation is something that is written about quite well, quite extensively in product management stuff, but it's something that's easy to not do.

我知道很多团队都想了解，什么是做优先级排序的最佳实践，比如我们该用ICE、RICE、Moscow还是其他什么方法。

You know, I work with a lot of teams that wanna know, again, the right best practice for doing prioritization, whether that's, you know, should we use ICE or rice or Moscow or whatever it is.

正确的优先级排序方法是什么？

What's the right way to do prioritization?

而且，again，这取决于情况，但如果你对‘影响’没有清晰明确的理解，就无法有效进行优先级排序。

And, you know, again, like, it depends, but if you don't have a clear and specific sense of what impact means, you can't really prioritize effectively.

所以，这又回到了设定目标的第一步。

So this is where, again, everything comes back to that first step of the way you set goals.

我之前跟你提到的那个团队，他们的目标是将单产品用户转化为多产品用户，团队中的一位产品经理几个月后回来找我，说：‘嘿，马特。’

So that team I told you about that had the goal of converting single product users to multiproduct users, one of the product managers on that team came back to me a few months later and said, hey, Matt.

我真的很需要你的帮助，来弄清楚该怎么进行优先级排序。

I could really use your help figuring out how to do prioritization.

我们应该用ICE吗？

Should we do ice?

我们应该用RICE吗？

Should we do rice?

我们应该用MoSCoW吗？

Should we do Moscow?

我做了一个ICE矩阵，分别对影响度、确定性和工作量进行了打分，然后将它们相乘，得出了我们应该做的事项列表。

I I put together an ice matrix where I scored impact, and I scored certainty, and I scored effort, and I multiplied each one by each one, and I have a list of the things we should do.

我说，这太棒了。

And I said, that's awesome.

我真的觉得，当有人主动去做了这件事，比如自己整理出这样一个清单时，是非常棒的。

And and I do really think it's awesome when people take the initiative to do the thing, to say, like, I put this together.

我们来一起过一遍吧。

Let's walk through it.

所以当他们给我看这个时，我说，我们先从影响度开始。

So when they showed me this, you know, I said, let's start with Impact.

我说，好的。

And I'm like, okay.

这是每个项目的得分。

Well, here's the score for each one.

我问，你是怎么得出这些分数的？

I was like, how do you what's the score?