本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
人们在协商薪酬时最常犯的错误是什么？
What's the most common mistake that people make when they're negotiating their comp?
很多人会躲在最省事的沟通渠道后面。
Often will hide behind the easiest communication channel possible.
比如我可能会给你发邮件列出我的要求。
I might email you my demands.
但这么做的问题在于，我没法把控语气的传递效果。
The problem with that is I can't control tone.
如果我提出了不同诉求，而读这封邮件的CEO正好在机场安检排队，一肚子火气，那他们看完可能会想：这混蛋居然还想要更多钱。
If I push back and the CEO that reads it's in the airport security line and pissed off and they read it, they might be like, that bastard wants more money.
很多听这期内容的人都不敢开口提更多要求。
A lot of people listening to this are just afraid to ask for more.
他们会觉得自己这么做会显得很贪婪。
I'm gonna come across as greedy.
还担心一切都会搞砸。
It's all gonna fall apart.
但你对比一下公司的盈利水平就会发现，你这根本算不上贪心。
But when you look at the money that the company is making in comparison, like, you're not being greedy.
这件事没必要搞得这么剑拔弩张。
It doesn't have to be such an aggressive thing.
也完全没必要针锋相对。
It doesn't have to be confrontational.
最简单的建议就是，开口问问能不能多争取一点薪酬，能有什么损失呢？
The simplest advice is what's the chance there could be a little more?
这一点都不贪心。
That's not greedy at all.
你的核心理念是要向公司把话说清楚：告诉他们你能帮他们解决哪些难题，再说明为什么给你涨这么多薪酬是值得的。
The core to your philosophy is make it very clear to the company, here's the pain I will solve for you, and here's why it's worth paying me this much more.
这些公司手上握有远比你多的筹码。
These companies have significant leverage over you.
他们清楚所有员工的薪酬水平。
They know what people make.
他们清楚其他人的薪酬水平。
They know what others make.
他们也知道你能接受什么样的条件。
They know what they'll accept.
你必须搞清楚自己能创造出什么价值。
You have to understand what value you can create.
只要你理清了这份价值，就能带着底气开启那场对话。
And if you understand that value, you can have that conversation with confidence.
今天，我的嘉宾是雅各布·沃里克。
Today, my guest is Jacob Warwick.
雅各布是一名职业谈判专家。
Jacob is a professional negotiator.
他在幕后为客户提供服务，客户群体大多是科技行业高管、职业运动员以及好莱坞名人。他会协助这些客户处理职业生涯中最复杂的谈判事务，包括薪酬、奖金、投资，还有企业并购、收购以及企业销售交易等各类事项。
He works behind the scenes with his clients, mostly senior tech execs, professional athletes, and Hollywood celebrities, and he helps them navigate their most complex career negotiations, including their comp, their bonuses, and investments, also M and A and takeovers and enterprise sales deals, and more.
他已经帮助客户累计拿下了超过10亿美元的额外薪酬，他还和我说，他曾和本播客的多位嘉宾打过谈判交道。
He's helped his clients secure over $1,000,000,000 in additional comp, and he's told me that he's negotiated against a number of guests on this podcast.
他非常低调，不上社交媒体，也很少接受采访。在这次独家对话中，我们深入探讨了薪酬谈判的具体策略与心理学，包括为什么你绝不能通过邮件谈判、当薪酬问题出现时谁应该先开口、人们在谈判薪酬时常常无意识犯下的最常见且代价高昂的错误，等等。
He is very much under the radar, is not on social media, rarely does interviews, and in this exclusive conversation, we get super deep on the specific tactics and psychology of comp negotiation, including why you should never negotiate over email, who should speak first when the question of comp comes up, the most common and costly mistakes that people unknowingly make when they're negotiating comp, and so much more.
雅各布本人也是一位真正杰出的人，我非常期待与大家分享他的故事。
Jacob is also just a truly stellar human, and I'm very excited to be sharing his story.
别忘了访问 Lenny 的 productpass.com，那里为 Lenny 订阅者提供了独家的绝佳优惠。
Don't forget to check out Lenny's productpass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers.
在短暂聆听我们精彩的赞助商广告后，我们马上开始。
Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.
本集由Orkes赞助播出，Orkes是开源Conductor平台的开发商，该平台为现代企业应用提供编排支持。
This episode is brought to you by Orkes, the company behind Open Source Conductor, the orchestration platform powering modern enterprise applications.
现代系统基于微服务、API和事件驱动架构构建，但传统的自动化工具已无法跟上步伐。
Modern systems are built on microservices, APIs, and event driven architectures, but legacy automation tools can't keep up.
孤立的低代码平台、过时的流程管理以及脱节的API工具在面对现实世界的规模和持续变化时会崩溃。
Siloed low code platforms, outdated process management, and disconnected API tooling break down under real world scale and constant change.
Orkes Conductor提供了一个生产级的编排层，用于协调微服务、API、数据管道、人工任务和智能工作流，具备确定性的控制流、重试机制、可观测性和治理能力。
Orkes Conductor provides a production grade orchestration layer for coordinating microservices, APIs, data pipelines, human tasks, and agentic workflows with deterministic control flow, retries, observability, and governance.
Orkes专为企业级规模打造，支持可视化开发与代码优先开发模式，同时内置合规性与可靠性保障。
Built for enterprise scale, Orkes supports visual and code first development with built in compliance and reliability.
通过内置的MCP网关，AI智能体能够在安全访问现有API和作为MCP工具的内部系统的同时，执行推理与决策任务。
Through a built in MCP gateway, AI agents handle reasoning and decision making while safely accessing existing APIs and internal systems as MCP tools.
这让智能体能够在企业环境中顺畅运行，从演示场景顺利扩展到生产环境，将系统、智能体和人类协同调度在一起，更快地实现更出色的业务成果。
This enables agents to operate across enterprise environments and scale from demos to production, orchestrating systems, agents, and humans together to deliver smarter outcomes faster.
欢迎访问orkes.io/lenny了解更多详情。
Learn more at orkes.io/lenny.
再次播报一下，网址是orkes.io/lenny。
That's orkes.io/lenny.
本期节目由Mercury赞助播出，这是一家与众不同的银行服务平台，深受包括我在内的30多万创业者的喜爱。
This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, including me.
我一年多前就从摩根大通银行转到了Mercury，使用体验真的要好太多了。
I switched to Mercury from Chase over a year ago, and it is such a profoundly better experience.
感觉这个平台就像是真正懂产品的人打造出来的银行，而不是传统银行从业者拼凑出的一款产品。
It's like an actual product person built a bank versus a banking person building a product.
它速度快、界面简洁优雅，无论是发起电汇、追踪支出，还是设置触发机制以便账户余额不足时自动调拨资金，操作起来都非常简单。
It is fast, it's elegant, it is super easy to set wires, to track my spending, to set up triggers to move money around when accounts get low.
我们把所有发票业务都转移到了Mercury，它的体验比我们用过的任何其他平台都要顺畅得多。
We moved all of our invoicing to Mercury, and it is such a smoother experience than anything else we've tried.
你还能很方便地给团队成员分配精准的访问权限，帮你分担工作压力。
It's also really easy to grant people on your team just the right amount of access to help take work off your plate.
注册起步完全免费，无需线下网点办理，也没有最低存款余额要求。
It's free to get started, no in person visits, no minimum balances.
这款产品还能适配所有规模的企业，无论是初创公司还是大型集团都能使用。
The product also flexes to all sizes of company, from startups to large enterprises.
只需访问mercury.com了解更多，几分钟就能在线完成申请。
Just visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes.
Mercury是一家金融科技公司，并非FDIC投保的银行。
Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank.
银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column NA提供，二者均为FDIC成员。
Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA Members FDIC.
雅各布，非常感谢你能来到这里。
Jacob, thank you so much for being here.
欢迎你做客本期播客。
Welcome to the podcast.
我很高兴能来这里，而且谢谢你，这一周我都因为太过期待而没睡好。
I'm very happy to be here, and, thank you for interfering with my sleep all week out of my excitement.
平时都是我家的新生儿和学步期小孩闹得我睡不好，但这回我凌晨三点就醒了，一直在想咱们这次聊天肯定会非常精彩。
Usually, it's my newborn and toddler, but this time I was waking up at three in the morning thinking about and it's gonna be a great chat.
所以我真的特别激动。
So I'm very excited.
谢谢你邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
非常感谢你这么说。
I really appreciate that.
这次聊天肯定不会让你失望的。
It's gonna be worth it.
最值得的是我们能从你脑子里挖走所有这些真知灼见。
It's gonna be worth it mostly to us to to extract all this wisdom from your head.
接下来我们会深入探讨谈判这个话题，包括如何更好地为薪酬谈判，而这些技巧还能套用在你生活中除薪酬之外的方方面面。
So we're gonna be going deep on negotiation, how to better negotiate for comp, and this will translate into all kinds of other ways of in your life beyond comp.
这件事在我的职业生涯里，一直是我非常非常不擅长的。
This is something I've personally been very, very bad at in my career.
我想想，我这辈子好像只有一次提出异议，为更高的薪资谈判过，我一直都对做这种事特别紧张，也完全不擅长。
Like, I don't know if I like maybe one time I pushed back and negotiated a higher comp, but I just like, I've always been really nervous to do this and just really bad at this.
而且我猜大部分听众也都对这件事感到紧张，同样不擅长。
And I imagine most listeners are nervous and bad at this.
而你就是靠这个吃饭的。
And You do this for a living.
你专门帮别人做谈判，我觉得很多人甚至都不知道还有这个职业，居然有人能专门帮你谈判。
You help people negotiate, which I don't think people even know this is a thing that exists, that somebody's out there that can help you negotiate.
所以你亲眼见证过太多次谈判的过程了。
And so you've seen a lot of negotiations up close.
先给大家补充一个背景：你合作的客户大多都是资深职场人，但我们今天要聊的很多内容，适用于任何层级的所有人。
Most of the people you work with, just as a context, are very senior people, but a lot of the stuff we're gonna talk about is gonna apply to anyone at any level.
我先从这个问题开始，帮大家建立一个基本的参考框架。
Let me start with this question just to keep people or frame a reference.
如果人们根本不去尝试谈判，那通常会白白损失多少薪资？
How much comp are people generally leaving on the table when they don't even try to negotiate?
对。
Yeah.
根据我的观察，哪怕不需要我提供帮助，只是做一些最基础的争取——完全不是那种强势的争取，就只是简单问一句「这里还有没有上调的空间」就好。
So typically what I've seen is even without my help, just general pushbacks, not aggressive, a simple what's the chance there could be more here kind of pushback.
这真的是最简单的操作了，不能更容易了。
I mean, that's about as easy as it can get.
你拿到offer之后，就问一句：「这儿还能再多一点吗？」
You get the offer, you say, what's the chance there's a little bit more?
几乎每次都能拿到差不多20%的涨幅。
Almost always see a 20% improvement on that.
而且这个涨幅适用于所有阶段的岗位，从早期职位开始都是如此。
And that is across the board from earlier stage positions.
举个例子，假设他们给你开出了10万美元的offer。
Let's say they gave you a $100,000 offer.
只需要简单提一句，就能拿到12万，当你能赚到这个量级的收入时，这笔钱足以改变人生。
120 could be there just from a simple pushback, which is when you're making that kind of money, that's life changing.
对吧？
Right?
我还发现，如果你是年薪100万美元的工薪阶层，同样提出这个诉求，也能拿到20%的涨幅，有时候还会更多——具体能涨多少，取决于你面试过程的把控程度。
I've noticed that when you make a million dollar w two, same pushback, 20%, sometimes more, just on the what's the chance depending on how well you kinda navigated that interview process.
现在平均来看，我帮客户争取薪资时，目标一般是实现40%左右的涨幅。
Now on average, when I'm calculating out, what I'm looking for with clients is about 40% movement on an increase.
我们还见过比初始offer涨了100%、200%、300%甚至400%的案例。
We have seen as much as 100, 200, 300, 400% increases from initial offers.
最值得一提的是，我们还打破了大家都奉若圭臬的薪资区间限制。这件事我们今天在这期播客里可能还会聊到：那些以有诚意、协作的方式挑战权威和固有规则的人，会比不敢挑战的人收获更多。
Most notably, breaking salary bands, which we all treat as gospel, which is something we'll probably talk about through the course of this this podcast today that, you know, those that challenge authority and challenge in a meaningful and collaborative way will win more than those that don't.
有意思的是我发现，产品负责人、工程师、设计师这类往往更内向、思虑周全的人群，谈判能力反而不如那些行事张扬的营销负责人、营收负责人，或是其他更外向的群体，谈判表现要差很多。
And what's interesting is I found that product, product leaders, engineers, designers, some of the more tend to be more introverted and thoughtful types negotiate more poorly than the obnoxious marketers and revenue leaders and the more extroverted types.
这点很让人无奈，因为如果回顾过去大概25年的发展，产品领域在诸多层面都深刻塑造了整个科技时代。
And it's frustrating because if you look back at the last, say, twenty five years or so, product has really defined the tech generation in so many ways.
我这么说并不是要贬低营销人员或是其他任何群体。
This isn't to discredit marketers or or anything like that.
只是想说明，企业里的业务条线各不相同，每个人的谈判风格也都不太一样。
It's just to show that there's a couple of sides of the business, and and everyone tends to negotiate a little differently.
所以当你回顾自己的职业生涯时会发现，就连优秀的伦尼（Lenny）当初在谈薪还价时都曾犯难。
So you're looking back at your career and say, you know, the great Lenny had a tough time pushing back.
我觉得这点其实能鼓舞很多听众，让他们明白有这种困扰的不止自己一个人。
I think that's that's actually inspiring for a lot of the listeners to see that you're not alone in feeling this.
谈判不一定非得要气势逼人。
It doesn't have to be such an aggressive thing.
也不一定就得带着对抗性。
It doesn't have to be confrontational.
我能给你最简单的建议是：你有没有机会争取多一点资源？
The simplest advice that I can give you is what's the chance there could be a little more?
这一点都不贪心。
That's not greedy at all.
只是一个很直白的请求而已。
That's just a simple ask.
哪怕只是多争取30%的资源也好。
And even that, 30%.
所以说，很多听这期节目的人都不敢开口要求更多。
So, again, a lot of people listening to this are just, like, afraid to ask for more.
他们总觉得，自己开口的话会显得很贪心。
There's like, I'm gonna come across as greedy.
还担心一切都会因此搞砸。
I'm gonna it's all gonna fall apart.
怕对方会反问自己：“你到底在说什么啊？”
They're gonna be like, what are you what are you talking about?
不会的。
No.
不可能的。
No.
算了吧。
Forget it.
不然就像你知道的，他们就算入职了。
Or the you know, they join.
他们拿到了更好的薪酬，却又会开始担心，大家好像都知道是自己争取来的这一切，担心别人觉得自己是个贪心的人。
They get better comp, and then they're like, everyone kinda they know that I pushed all this, and I'm this kinda greedy person.
现在大家对自己的期望反而变高了。
Now the expectations are higher.
你会怎么开导大家，帮他们跨过这个心理坎，真正敢去谈判、勇敢争取呢？
What do you tell people to help them get past that and actually negotiate and actually go for it?
对。
Yeah.
这里我分几点来说。
A couple things here.
首先，通常一家公司从你身上创造的价值本来就远高于付给你的薪酬，比例大概是5:1、10:1，甚至100:1。
So first of all, usually, a company is extracting much more value out of you naturally, like five to one, ten to one, a 100 to one.
对吧？
Right?
我知道今天在场的听众主要都是产品岗的从业者。
If you're I know the audience is primarily product here.
你开发的产品在某种层面上拥有无限的规模化空间，能给公司创造巨额收益，而你是实现这一切的核心力量。
I mean, you're developing products that have infinite scalability in some capacity that's gonna make the company a lot of money, and you're a big piece of that.
而且产品岗的薪资待遇本身也还算不错。
And product tends to be rewarded fairly well.
没错吧？
Right?
但要是和公司赚到的总收益比起来，你根本算不上贪心。
But when you look at the money that the company is making in comparison, like, you're not being greedy.
只要你理解这种价值交换，你就能自信地展开这场谈判。
And if you understand that value exchange, you can have that conversation with confidence.
这并不是说做出头的人就没有风险。
That's not to say that being a tall poppy isn't risky.
这就是那个说法的意思。
That's the term.
比如你谈判过度了。
You over negotiate.
我宁愿我的客户谈判力度过大，争取到了远高于当前职级的待遇，最后被驳回。
I would rather my clients over negotiate, reach a couple rungs up on the ladder, and they get slapped down.
哪怕这样，他们也是在失败中前进，也能在某些方面获得成长。
They're still failing forward, and they're growing in some capacity.
而且如果你能把工作和热爱结合起来——这份工作对你来说更像在玩，同时还能拿到丰厚的报酬，那你其实没必要非得拼尽全力去争薪酬区间的顶值，或是为了破界而破界。
And if you can ideally align work that doesn't feel like work, it feels a little bit more like play with strong compensation, you don't always need to negotiate hellaciously for the top of the band or break the bands just because you can.
对吧？
Right?
这不是贪得无厌。
This isn't to be greedy.
对吗？
Right?
而是要明白，无论情况如何，这种价值交换对你来说都是不公平的。
But it's just to understand that this value exchange isn't fair for you regardless of how it works.
积累财富的途径是靠持有资产所有权。
It's the path to wealth is through ownership.
没错吧？
Right?
而作为W-2雇员，你要承担高额税负，在这种情况下多争取一些是合情合理的。
And as a w two employee, you're being taxed heavily, and it it makes sense to push a little bit in this context.
所以我通常都会从这里切入开始聊。
So that's typically where I start.
我希望大家能建立起底气，明白这么做完全没问题。
I want you to just have the confidence to know that it's okay.
那我从另一个角度来谈谈这个问题。
Let me come at it from the other direction.
这期播客的很多听众都是创始人、招聘经理或是部门管理者。
A lot of people listening to this podcast are founders or hiring managers, managers.
他们可能不太乐意听到我们给大家出主意，教大家怎么更强势地谈判，要求更高的薪酬。
They may not be super excited to hear or giving people advice on how to negotiate harder for higher comp.
那你能说点什么，让他们在得知我们分享这类建议后，心里能好受一些吗？
What could you say to them to make them feel a little bit better about us sharing this sort of advice?
我其实也会对他们提出反问。
So I will challenge them as well.
那我想问问，留住顶尖人才、维护好顶尖人才团队，对你来说到底有多重要？
Now I how important of a priority is top talent in maintaining and retaining top talent to you?
对吧？
Right?
毕竟现在技术革新的速度这么快。
When we're thinking about how quickly the speed of innovation is happening.
你们频道最近请到了很多很厉害的人工智能领域嘉宾。
You've had a lot of great AI guests on the channel recently.
对吧？
Right?
就是说，增长的指数曲线还在不断上扬。
Like, the exponential curve of growth is increasing.
如果你们想要在竞争里占得一席之地，就必须吸引顶尖人才，还要留住这些人——毕竟替换他们的成本太高了。
If you hope to stand a chance, you need to attract the top talent, and you need to keep that top talent because it's very expensive to replace them.
我并不是在教大家为了砍价而故意跟你们对着干。
I'm not suggesting that people beat you up for the sake of beating you up.
认为谈判就是要针锋相对，这其实是个误区。
So this is a myth about negotiation that's adversarial.
我所讲授的是，我们要怎么才能让谈判变得更具协作性？
What I teach is how can we be more collaborative?
比如谈判的时候可以这么说：你看，莱尼，作为创始人，你能不能帮我弄清楚对你来说什么才是重要的？
So the conversation is, look, Lenny, as a founder, can you help me understand what's important to you?
这份工作能够创造的价值，接着我们自然就能达成条件，让价值交换变得更合理一些。
The value that this work will drive, and then naturally, we'll come to terms that make a little bit more of a value exchange.
这一点是说得通的。
Makes sense there.
很多时候，我们打破薪酬边界的方式，未必是要争取不合理的基本工资水平或提成比例。
So oftentimes, some of the ways that we're breaking the boundaries of compensation isn't necessarily advocating for a busted base comp level and bonus percentage.
我们通常会设置绩效激励和里程碑触发条件。
Oftentimes, we're putting performance incentives, milestone triggers.
如果公司的年度经常性收入（ARR）增长到1亿美元，而我为此做出了这些贡献，那我能获得什么样的回报？
If the company grows to a 100,000,000 ARR and I contributed this to it, what would that outcome look like?
是会再给我一批股票，还是发现金，还是说不会有额外奖励？
Would that be another tranche of stock, or would that be cash, or would that no.
我们在这方面的思路越来越灵活了。
We are getting more creative here.
有意思的是，在很长一段时间里，我都很难主动为这种方案去争取支持。
And so what's interesting is for the longest time, I had a I had a difficult time advocating for this.
而我自己也曾担任过首席执行官和创始人，所以我能理解为什么大家不愿意这么做——因为操作难度真的很大。
And having been a CEO and founder myself, I understand why you don't wanna do it because it's hard.
要搭建这样的体系很难，而且所有人都自认为是顶尖人才。
It's hard to make this, and everyone also thinks they're top talent.
要是人人都觉得自己是顶尖人才，那肯定有人在自欺欺人。
And when everyone thinks they're top talent, somebody's gotta be lying.
对吧？
Right?
要认清这个事实并不容易。
It can be difficult to understand that.
我发现，那些更有底气争取绩效挂钩薪酬模式的人，往往在项目里投入了更多个人筹码，也更愿意留下来陪公司一同见证成功。
So those that I found are more confident to push towards performance based tend to have more skin in the game, tend to wanna stick around and see that success happen.
如果我要打造一家极具竞争力的企业，这正是我想要的团队成员类型。
Those are the types of people I want working for me if I wanna be a very competitive organization.
我已经开始和几家《财富》世界500强公司，还有一些人才咨询公司（也就是大型猎头机构）展开这类讨论了——他们请我去为薪酬委员会提供咨询，好让他们能设计出更灵活的薪酬架构，避免人才流失。
I have started to have these conversations with a couple Fortune 500 companies as well as some talent consulting companies, think big recruiting firms, where they've brought me in to advise on the comp committees so that they can get more creative with their structure so they don't lose talent.
因为如果你招了一名顶级员工，结果他们十个月就离职了，那对所有人来说都是双输的局面。
Because nobody wins when you hire a top performer and they leave in ten months.
猎头公司拿不到应得的报酬，也就是他们的绩效奖金，没错吧。
The recruiting firm loses their pay, right, their performance pay.
而公司现在又得重新招人来顶替这个位置。
The company now has to go back and replace that person.
这通常会耗费数十万的成本。
This usually costs hundreds of thousands.
在我们接触的部分财富世界500强企业的业务场景中，要弥补流失的知识产权带来的损失，哪怕不说数千万，也得花费数百万美元。
And in some of the realms that we navigate in the Fortune 500, it will cost millions, if not tens of millions, to replace the lost IP there.
所以我这里想表达的核心是，灵活调整薪酬方案是完全可行的。
So the argument here is it's okay to get creative.
看到优秀的业绩就及时给予奖励。
Reward it when you see it.
你说对吗？
Right?
我不是说要给公司里每个人都分走所有资源，彻底毁掉你的商业模式。
I'm not suggesting give everyone everything in the company and and totally ruin your business model.
但如果你想保持竞争力，那你的薪酬待遇也要有竞争力才行。
But if you wanna be competitive, be competitive with your pay as well.
这个回答太棒了。
That's a great answer.
而且我们刚开始录节目之前还聊过，你说你帮过不少人和咱们这期播客的很多嘉宾谈判——也就是那些他们要招的人，最后你帮这些求职者拿到了更高的薪酬。
And we were chatting before we started recording this, and you shared that you've helped people negotiate with many of the guests on this podcast, like people that they were hiring and you helped them get higher comp.
我就不指名道姓了。
I won't mention any names.
最近就有这么个例子，只是一小撮团队成员，整体的薪酬涨幅就超过了一千万。
Some recently were in in the realm of 10,000,000 plus on increases in compensation across a a team of just a handful of folks.
还是那句话，这是财富五百强公司的情况，但要是不这么做的后果，就是这些人才会被竞争对手挖走，而且CEO在财报电话会议上公开发布声明后，公司股价还会下跌。
Again, Fortune five hundred, but the alternative was lose them to competitors and have the stock drop after the CEO made announcements publicly in their earnings calls.
所以他们可能没意识到，今天看似掏了一千万的成本，实则在这套业务流程里，帮公司省下了三亿多、甚至五亿的损失。
And so they don't know that they may have cost them 10,000,000 today, but it saved them 300 plus 300, 500 in this business process.
所以最终还是会成功的。
So the success will be there.
而且我敢说，几乎所有人都愿意花1000万来省下3亿多、5亿的损失。
And I would say almost anybody would pay 10 to save 300.
另外为了让大家清楚你的运作模式，我得说你一直都非常低调，几乎不走到台前。
And the way you operate, just so people understand is you're very behind the scenes.
你只和客户对接、给他们提建议，从来不会亲自参与谈判过程。
You work with clients, and you advise them you're never involved in the negotiation.
你只会给他们提建议，教他们该怎么推进谈判。
You just give them advice on how to approach it.
我会把这种模式称作‘无影无踪’，而且这么做是有原因的。
I would call it fingerprintless, and there's a reason for this.
这套模式目前还没有普及开来。
So it's it's not yet popularized.
不过也许随着那些AI集成电路领域的人才、顶尖科研人员拿到上亿美金的合同，这套模式会被越来越多人熟知。
Maybe it will be with some of these, in in AI ICs and these hot scientists are pulling down $100,000,000 contracts.
也许这种情况很快就会改变。
Maybe this will change soon.
在好莱坞，你会请经纪人为你洽谈协商，他们就充当着中间调解人的角色。
In Hollywood, you have an agent negotiate on your behalf, and they kind of are serving as that middle mediator.
但这在当前的美国企业界并不常见。
That's not common in the corporate corporate America right now.
对吧？
Right?
要是真的这么做了，反而会削弱企业高管的领导力和存在感。
Now if that happens, it almost dilutes the leadership and presence of the executive.
所以我的工作模式和律师类似：所有沟通内容在送达最终接收方之前，都会先经过我处理。
And so how I work is similar to an attorney where all correspondence goes through me before it goes to the end recipient.
举个例子，如果你要和CEO谈话，你得先给我打电话。
So let's say that you're gonna talk to the CEO, You call me first.
我们一起准备好行动方案。
We prepare the game plan.
我们一起制定策略。
We strategize.
之后你去沟通交流，结束后我们再一起复盘总结。
You then perform, then we debrief.
之后如果首席执行官给你发邮件，
Then the CEO sends you an email.
那这封邮件会先发到我这里。
That email comes to me.
我们一起起草回复内容。
We draft it together.
我通常会先引导我的客户调动自己的判断，而不是直接替他们把所有事都做完。
I usually test my client's instincts first rather than just doing the work for them.
先激发他们自己的想法，再润色措辞，因为整个过程中的每一步都是一场谈判。
Test their instincts, polish the language, because every step of the way is a negotiation.
不过这套做法也会拖慢整个流程的节奏。
Now this also slows the process down.
我们希望把节奏放慢，而且我相信我们也会在播客里再详细聊聊这件事。
We want to go slower, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that in the podcast too.
欲速则不达。
Haste equals risk.
所以当我们放慢节奏时，通常会花几天时间再作出回应——这不是故意摆架子、故意刁难，也不是为了制造虚假的紧迫感，而是要让对方感觉到你的时间宝贵、你经过了深思熟虑，同时我们也能在这个过程中梳理、收集信息。
So as you slow down, oftentimes, we wanna take a couple of days to respond, not to be a jerk or belligerent or to manufacture some fake urgency, but it shows a little scarcity and thought process to your time, and we get to calculate and collect information through the process.
这太有意思了。
This is so interesting.
那人们在为自己的通话（合作邀约）谈判时，最常犯的最严重的错误是什么？
What what's the most common biggest mistake that people make when they're negotiating their call?
他们没能意识到谈判从什么时候就已经开始了。
They don't understand when it starts.
因为谈判启动的时间远比你以为的要早得多。
So the it starts much sooner than you think.
我之前也在这件事上栽过跟头，因为领英资料和简历只能反映你过去的经历，没办法帮你在未来的谈判中争取主动。
So I've I've got myself on hot water with this before too because a like, a LinkedIn profile in your resume is a snapshot of what you've been in the past, but it doesn't help you negotiate in the forward.
是吧？
Right?
所以如果有人看到这些信息，就会说：哦，我只知道伦尼是个产品经理。
So if somebody can say, oh, I'm looking at Lenny, and I'm looking at product manager.
如果他们只了解到这一点，就根本不会知道你接下来要做的所有工作、你的愿景规划，还有其他这类重要的内容。
If that's all they saw, they're not gonna know all this work that you're doing in the future moving forward and what your vision's, things like that.
所以他们只会把你标签化成“产品经理伦尼”。
So they stamp you as product manager Lenny.
对吧？
Right?
可你现在是传媒大亨、行业标杆之类的身份了。
Now your media mogul icon, whatever.
没错吧？
Right?
这中间的鸿沟就是我们得去填补的。
But there's a gap to have to fill.
对吧？
Right?
所以你在领英上发布的内容会塑造他人对你的印象。
So the things you say on LinkedIn serve as a perception.
你的个人头像也会塑造他人对你的印象。
The headshot that you have serves as a perception.
我以前开玩笑说我会扫描别人的社交资料。
I used to joke that I could scan profiles.
我光靠头像的质量就能猜出这个人的收入水平。
I would know how much money someone made by the quality of their headshot.
你去观察的话会发现，这个规律的一致性高得离谱。
And you can see, and it would like, it was wildly consistent.
甚至都有点让人无奈。
It was almost frustrating.
不过话说回来，你向外界传递的所有内容、你公开分享的个人叙事，会逐渐成为你的公众形象和口碑。
But, anyway, what you're putting out into the world, the narrative you share publicly starts to become how you're known, your reputation.
如果你把自己定位成一件普通商品，别人就会像对待商品一样对待你。
If you're positioned as a commodity, you will be treated like a commodity.
对吧？
Right?
所以往往少分享反而更好，因为当你和别人通电话时，你可以修正表述，把对话导向你想要的方向，而不是要为自己十年前做过的不妥之事买单，举个例子而已。
So oftentimes, the less you share is better because when you're on the phone with somebody, you can correct the narrative and steer the conversation where you want it to go versus have to live by the sins of what you did ten years ago as an example.
所以你和招聘人员说的每一句话，他们都会记下来。
So the things you share with recruiters, they take notes.
比如有个招聘人员打电话给你，说：‘嗨，莱尼。’
When a recruiter calls you and says, hey, Lenny.
‘你期望的薪资是多少？’
How much money do you expect to make?
然后你说：‘哦，我觉得2.25美元就可以了。’
And you say, oh, you know, $2.25.
这个价格听起来挺合理的。
That sounds fair.
你要知道，五年之后他们再找你，还会觉得你就该拿2.25那份薪水，完全没意识到这些年你的能力早就得到了爆发式的成长。
You know, five years later, they call you and they expect you to make $2.25 again, not recognizing that you've grown exponentially since then.
所以你传达的所有信息，最后都会成为衡量你价值的通用标准。
So everything you communicate starts to serve as that value chain across the board.
人们还会犯另一个错误，你之前也稍微提到过一点：就是会觉得摆出那种所谓的“对抗姿态”，或者提出自己的诉求会很尴尬，怕自己要得太多。
Another mistake that people make, and you mentioned this a little earlier, it feels uncomfortable to get, quote, unquote, confrontational or to feel like you're asking for too much.
所以很多人都会选择躲在最容易开口的沟通渠道后面。
So often we'll hide behind the easiest communication channel as possible.
比如我可能会给你发邮件，把我的要求、我的协商条件都写在里面，对吧？
So I might email you my demands demands, right, or my negotiation.
但这么做的问题是，我没办法控制文字传递出去的语气。
And the problem with that is I can't control tone.
尤其是在你要和高阶职位的人谈判的时候，这个问题就更严重了。
I can't control especially when you're negotiating at high levels.
如果我提出了不同的诉求，而读到这封邮件的CEO刚好在机场过安检，一肚子火气，那他看完可能只会想：这家伙居然还想要更多钱。
If I push back and the CEO that reads it's in the airport security line and pissed off and they read it, they might be like, that bastard wants more money.
他们只会留下这么个印象。
That's all they take away.
哪怕你措辞已经无比完美，把所有内容都梳理得尽可能清楚妥当。
Even if you perfectly worded it, you got it all, you know, as clean as it can be.
要是刚好赶上他们情绪不好的时候，你根本没法控制这段内容会被如何解读。
If you catch them at the wrong time, you have no control over how it's received.
对吧？
Right?
所以哪怕不能当面沟通，至少也最好用视频通话，这样你能传递语气、读懂肢体语言，还能随时在沟通的每一步做出调整。
So it's always better to have at least a video call, if not in person, so you can share tone, you can read body language, you can correct every step of the way.
还有很多时候，我们会试图通过招聘人员来谈判。
Oftentimes, we also try to negotiate through recruiters.
没错吧？
Right?
你当然可以这么做。
You could do that.
杰克，我真做了那事，雅各布。
Jake I did the thing, Jacob.
我和一个招聘人员聊过了。
I talked to a recruiter.
我花了半个小时把这事解释清楚。
I spent a half an hour explaining it.
但这么做的问题在于，你相当于在玩传声筒游戏。
Problem with that is you're playing a game of telephone.
所以同样的状况还是会发生。
So the same thing happens.
我把情况跟招聘人员解释了一遍。
I I explain it to the recruiter.
我的语气也拿捏得很到位。
I get the tone right.
结果那个招聘人员去找CEO的时候，只会传达一句‘那家伙想要涨工资’——他们只会传递这种信息。
The recruiter goes to the CEO and says, that bastard wants more money, and that's all they communicate.
对吧？
Right?
所以人们总是找错了对象去谈判。
So people negotiate with the wrong folks.
你得去找那些切身利益相关的人。
You have to go to the one who has skin in the game.
谁掌管着盈亏？
Who controls the P and L?
谁掌控着税息折旧及摊销前利润？
Who controls EBITDA?
他们的动机是什么？
What what's what's their motivation?
那才是你应该去沟通的人。
That's who you wanna talk to.
另外有些人可能还会有顾虑：那我要怎么绕开招聘人员呢？
And so some people might also have a concern with, well, how do I go around the recruiter?
我不想让他们难堪。
I don't want them to look bad.
我们得尊重地处理这件事，而且现在得好好规划该怎么沟通。
We have to do that respectfully, and now we need to plan what that communication looks like.
这里的重点是，这件事让你感到不舒服，不代表你就不需要去做。
And so the important thing here is just because it's uncomfortable doesn't mean you don't need to do it.
这只能说明你还不知道该怎么做而已。
It just means you don't know how to do it.
所以当某件事让你不舒服时，你得主动迎上去，因为成长就发生在这种时刻。
So when something's uncomfortable, you have to run towards that because that's where the growth happens.
我很喜欢我们现在聊得这么具体务实。
I love how tactical we're getting here.
那接着这个话题往下说。
So following this thread.
所以你给出的建议是，当你拿到offer之后，不管怎样你都应该多多少少去争取一下，是这个意思吗？
So the advice here is when you get an offer and you want and you should basically, you're saying you should always negotiate in some way.
你应当提出异议争取更多权益。
You should push back.
你的建议是别通过邮件来谈这件事。
Your advice here is don't do it over email.
一定要想办法和招聘负责人，或是真正握有实权、能决定财务预算的相关人员通一场视频电话。
Make sure you find a way to do a video call with essentially the hiring manager or the person that is has skin in the game, the like, the finances and the budget.
有些情况尤其适用于高阶职位的谈判，
There are situations, especially at high levels.
更多合作是在高尔夫球场而非董事会会议室里谈成的。
More deals are closed on the golf course than they are in a boardroom.
对吧？
Right?
所以有时你可以把谈判对象带到不一样的场景里。
So there are situations where you pull someone into a different element.
这就叫主场优势。
This is called home field advantage.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果你跑到对方公司去交谈，你就脱离了自己的舒适区，可能没办法发挥出最佳状态。
So if you go to a company to have a conversation, you're out of your element in in a situation where you may not perform your best.
还有一件事大家都没做好，那就是他们没能掌控交谈的时间。
The other thing people don't do is they don't control the time of which they have a conversation.
要是首席执行官想早上6点就上线沟通。
CEO wants to hop on at 06:00 in the morning.
千万别直接爬起来准备好Presentation就赴约。
Get your ass up, get that presentation, and go.
你得告诉他，那个时间我没空。
You need to say, I'm not available at that time.
你要去留意自己的肢体语言状态。
I'm and and you read your own body language.
我上午10点到下午1点之间状态最好。
I'm strongest between the hours of 10AM and and 1PM.
我希望会议安排在这个时间段。
I want a meeting in that time.
所以我会说，在那个时间段之前我都没空，只有这个时段可以。
So I will say, I'm unavailable until that time becomes available.
这还能传递出你的时间很稀缺的信号，说明你不会任人摆布。
That also communicates scarcity and that you won't get pushed around.
对吧？
Right?
所以要这么做、要对CEO说不，其实挺难的。
So it's scary to do that to say no to the CEO.
我只有这个时间段有空。
I'm actually only available here.
这还会产生一种“橡皮筋效应”，让你更有吸引力。
That also creates a rubber band effect that makes you more attractive.
对吧？
Right?
这种事其实经常发生，有意思的是OpenAI就这么做过。
And so oftentimes, it actually OpenAI did this, which is funny.
我之前没明白这么做的原因，当时我有几个客户在应聘OpenAI的高管职位。
I I didn't realize what the reason was, but I had some clients interviewing for c suite roles at OpenAI.
于是我就让他们试着给萨姆·奥尔特曼“找点小麻烦”，我觉得这么做没问题。
And so pushing Sam Altman around a little bit, which I'm okay with.
我觉得这种做法是可行的。
I'm okay with that.
换作往常，他们本来会直接走出办公楼，索性就在旧金山市区里散步碰面。
But so they used to walk outside of the office and just walk downtown San Francisco instead.
对吧？
Right?
把人从他熟悉的环境里带出来。
You take someone out of the element.
让身体分泌内啡肽，整个人松弛下来。
You get the endorphins going.
你一边走路一边聊天。
You're walking and talking.
这里最重要的一点是，不会像你我面对面剑拔弩张的谈判那样，而是我们并肩同步往前走。
You're the important piece here is instead of you and I being confrontational, like negotiating between each other, we're locking walking side by side.
那种感觉就好像你都能自然地把胳膊搭在对方肩膀上。
So it's almost like you could put your arm around the other person.
你们是在一同解决问题。
You're solving the problem together.
这些注意事项听起来都是小事，但这么做的时候，肢体语言、语气、协作感还有氛围都会更自然地流动起来。
These sound like minor things to consider, but the body language and the tone and the collaboration and the energy starts to flow more naturally when you do this.
这些全都是行为心理学的范畴。
This all behavioral psychology.
对吧？
Right?
话说回来，还有个挺有意思的小故事。
And so what funny story.
我之所以发现OpenAI是这么做的，是因为他们不想让任何高管进办公室，当时公司内部乱得一塌糊涂。
Why I found out OpenAI did that was because they didn't want any executives going into the office because it was such a mess.
那架势就像是你能想象到的最混乱的初创公司。
It was like the biggest startup you've ever seen.
所以我以前还开玩笑说，这家伙就像两个小矮人套着一件长外套，装成一副正经公司的样子。
So I used to joke that it was, two midgets in a trench coat pretending to be a real company.
对吧？
Right?
所以呢，不管怎么说，核心思路就是要把谈话带到一个我们能掌控、能占据优势的地方。
And, so, anyway, the point was let's take them to a place where we can control and have an advantage over the conversation.
这也是你可以用来思考的方式：你在哪里会觉得最自在？
So that's a way that you can think about where are you gonna feel most comfortable?
一天当中的哪个时段你状态最好？
What hours of the day are you most comfortable?
如果你能约对方一起吃午饭或喝咖啡，选一个双方平等的场地，甚至是你的主场，那你在这种场合里的表现会更好，而且你对这件事的掌控力，远比你以为的要大。
If you can bring someone to a lunch or a coffee where you're on even playing field or even your home field, you will perform better in those situations, and you have more control over that than you may think.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
所以这里的建议就是，尽量别在对方的办公室里谈这个事。
So the advice there is try to get this conversation out of their office.
确实可以这样。
It can be.
你懂吧？
You know?
但如果我是个产品经理，要跟一位总监沟通，那可能就做不到了。
But if I'm a product manager and I'm talking to a director, that may not be possible.
对。
Right.
是吧？
Right?
对方可能就会说，听着。
It might just say, look.
你得来我办公室一趟。
You gotta come into the office.
你必须得过来。
You gotta do this.
对吧？
Right?
我的想法是，如果和高管层级的人对接，倒是有可能把他们约出办公室。
I'm pushing like, when I'm talking about a C suite level, like, could pull them out of the office.
嘿。
Hey.
咱们出去喝一杯吧。
Let's go get drinks.
没错。
Mhmm.
就好比，有些合作就是在晚上八点半，刚看完演唱会之类的场合敲定的。
Like, sometimes these deals are closed at 08:30 at night after a concert or something like that.
这么做能缓和当时的沟通氛围。
So it's easing that situation.
话虽如此，这并不意味着你不能去尝试。
That being said, it doesn't mean you couldn't try.
就好比，你可以开口说。
It's like, hey.
“我有几个问题想请教。”
I've got a couple of questions.
“你是否方便，咱们去AT&T公园散散步，顺便聊聊这件事？”
Are you open to, you know, take a walk down AT And T Park and and have a conversation about it?
如果你能把他们从办公室约出来，就能借此建立更稳固的关系，也更有可能达成你的诉求。
If you could pull them out of that, you can start to build a stronger relationship through that, and you're more likely to get your way.
那给我们讲讲你推荐的操作流程吧：假设我拿到了offer，招聘方给我发了薪资通知，30万年薪，还有部分股权。
Talk us through this the kind of this the process you would recommend from, I get an offer, recruiter sends me, here's your offer, 300 ks salary, some kind of equity.
接下来的一步步该怎么做？我知道这要看岗位、职级还有公司类型，比如是私募还是风投投的初创公司——毕竟要提出异议、要求更多待遇，实在很让人忐忑。
What's kind of like the step by step you'd, and I know this is depends on the role, seniority type of company, PE, VC backed startup, because it's very scary to push back and be like, oh, I want more.
那一般来说，第一封回复的邮件应该是什么样的？
What's like that first email slash reply to that email look like typically?
比如说，你可能会用到哪些话术？
Like, what are some phrases maybe you'd use?
那如果你要当面聊的话，你要怎么开启对话，提出想要争取更多条件呢？
And then what's the how do you open up a conversation where you plan to ask for more if you're meeting in person especially?
因为这感觉太让人紧张了。
Because that feels so scary.
首先，我们要带着感激的态度来处理这件事。
So first, we wanna approach with gratitude.
对吧？
Right?
我们要先表达自己很高兴能有推进合作的机会，对此心怀感激。
We're thankful that we wanna move forward.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，“莱尼，非常感谢你给我发了offer”。
So, Lenny, I appreciate you making me an offer.
对吧？
Right?
我很期待能和你共事。
I'm excited to work with you.
我们要展现出热情，这份热情也能体现出你的自信。
We wanna show enthusiasm, which also shows some confidence.
哪怕你自己还在犹豫要不要接下这份工作，也要表现出这笔合作肯定能谈成的样子。
We have to show that the deal's going to get done even if you're on the fence about it.
对吧？
Right?
这不是说你要表现得兴奋到好像这事板上钉钉，也不是说就算你真的失望，也要把情绪藏起来。
Now it's not to say you're so excited that it's a sure thing, and you're not showing that you're disappointed even if you are.
对吧？
Right?
所以要先表达感激。
So I'm grateful.
我很期待和你共事。
I'm looking forward to working with you.
接下来几天我想把这个内容过一遍。
I wanna review this over the next couple of days.
对吧？
Right?
我会和我妻子商量这件事。
I'll talk to my wife about it.
你懂的，也会咨询一下顾问之类的人。
You know, talk to an adviser, so and so.
等以后你成为高层管理人员的时候，你会和法务团队沟通，和顾问沟通，还会和指导教练沟通。
Later on, when you're a high level executive, you're talking to legal, you're talking to advisers, you're talking to a coach.
可能会有五六个人都看过这份材料。
Like, you may have five or six people see that.
对吧？
Right?
雇佣律师，诸如此类的人都会过目。
Employment lawyer, all that.
这些都是意料之中的情况。
That stuff is expected.
对吧？
Right?
所以你也在走这个流程。
So you're going through the process.
我需要花几天时间梳理一下这件事。
I'm gonna take a couple days to process this.
之后我会再联系你。
I'll get back to you.
我可能会有几个问题要问你。
I may have a couple of questions.
对吧？
Right?
不过我们会再跟进的，这应该不成问题。
But we'll loop back, and it shouldn't be a problem.
我估计再过几周我们就能开始合作了。
I imagine we start working together in a couple weeks.
是吧？
Right?
所以核心就是你得让对方相信这笔交易肯定能成，这样才能让他们觉得不管怎样这事都会推进下去。
So the point is you have to sell that the deal is gonna be done, which helps them feel like it's gonna move forward regardless.
对吧？
Right?
所以你提出的任何要求都不会太过分。
So any ask that you make is not gonna be egregious.
通常来说，你的开价越高，最终结果就越好，但这事挺让人犯难的，因为你肯定不想表现得好像‘我直接把价抬了40%’之类的。
Now oftentimes, the higher you anchor, the better you're gonna perform, which can be frustrating because you don't necessarily wanna be like, oh, I increased it 40% or anything like that.
这里面就有很多讲究了。
Now this is where a lot of nuance comes in.
所以我们可以这么做：三天后再回头找对方，提出要谈一谈。
So we might say, you know, come back three days later, wanna have the conversation.
咱们去公园散个步，把这事聊透。
Let's take a walk in the park and talk through it.
对吧？
Right?
那个时候你就可以坦言，目前这个报价的情况实在没法让你放心推进。
You know, I gotta be honest with you where this offer stands right now.
我没法安心把这事继续推进下去。
I don't feel comfortable moving forward.
这个报价比我预期的要低一些。
It's a little lighter than I expected.
对吧？
Right?
我可能就会说类似这样的话，之后就先等着，看对方怎么回应。
I may start saying something like that, and then just wait and see what they have to say.
说不定对方会问：那你心里是怎么想的呢？
Maybe they say, well, what did you have in mind?
那我就可以反问：能不能麻烦你告诉我这个岗位的薪酬区间是多少，还有每个档位分别要求怎样的工作表现？
It's like, well, what's the chance you can share what the range looks like for this and what type of performance did you expect for each of these levels?
对吧？
Right?
或者对方可能会说：我们给你的薪酬已经是这个区间的中间水平了。
Or they may say, we we've comped you in the middle part of the range.
对吧？
Right?
你就可以接着问：那这个区间的最高档是什么情况？
You might say, what does the top end look like?
我需要做到哪些事情，才能达到你们的要求、拿到最高档的薪酬呢？
You know, what what must I do to fit those needs for you?
你能帮我梳理明白吗？
Can you help me understand?
现在对很多人来说，尤其是在当下的市场环境里——如果我们对比2021年和现在的情况，会发现行业里出现了不少职级倒挂的现象。
Now for a lot of folks, especially in this market and this if if we talk about what it was like in 2021 versus what it's like now, there's some over leveling that's happened.
有些人本来是高管级别的，现在降级去应聘副总裁岗位，还有的副总裁降级去应聘总监岗，尤其是去规模更大的公司求职时，这种情况更常见。
So there are people that are c suite going back to VP, and VP is going back to directors, especially as they go to bigger companies.
通常我会这么说：就像咱们刚才聊的，我个人的能力其实大概率比你们预期的要强一些。
Oftentimes, I'll say, you know, as we had this conversation, I I'm likely a little more horsepower than you anticipated.
对吧？
Right?
那咱们有没有可能重新调整一下薪资方案，匹配我能带来的能力价值呢？
What's the chance we can come in and restructure the comp for the type of talent we're bringing in here?
这就是我们一直以来会用的谈判思路。
And so this is a line that we used.
去年就有三位求职者，原本他们的薪资区间是18.5万到28.5万美元。
There was three folks last year that were in ranges of a 185 to two eighty five.
最后我们通过争取大额现金涨幅和股票增值，把总薪酬谈到了110万美元才敲定offer。
That deal landed at 1,100,000.0 when we were done with increases in stock, big cash increases.
还有两笔原本薪酬定在60万的案子，最后分别拿到了110万和120万的薪酬包。
Two deals that were comped at 600 that landed at one point one and one point two.
所以薪酬直接翻了一倍。
So doubled from that.
这些案例里，岗位原本是高级总监级别，最后都升成了副总裁级别，因为公司在这个场景里急需顶尖人才。
And these were situations where the role started at senior director and were up leveled to VP because they were reaching for top talent in that situation.
所以只要你本身实力足够过硬，就会有更多能争取的空间，谈判也会顺利很多。
So there are opportunities where it's easier to steer if you're really, really good.
对不对？
Right?
我能理解有些听众会说，我现在的职业生涯还没到那个阶段呢。
I can see why some listeners are like, well, I'm not there in my career yet.
如果是这种情况，那刚才说的就是高端职场里薪酬谈判的运作方式。
In that case, this is just how it gets done.
没错吧？
Right?
更大的职业进展就是这样实现的。
This is how bigger moves happen.
这并不意味着你不能自然地争取多涨约20%的薪水。
It doesn't mean you can't push for maybe 20% more naturally.
对于这种情况，你首先要思考的是：这里还有多少争取的空间？
That I would start with, what's the chance there's a little bit more here?
我之前就预料到会是这样。
I was expecting this.
对吧？
Right?
另外还有很多细节需要注意，因为如果你在对话中过早暴露自己的诉求，之后就很难再挽回余地了。
Again, more nuances because if you open up what you're looking for too early in the conversation, that can be difficult to come back from later on.
这倒也不是完全离谱，但招聘官开口就问你期望薪资是多少的行为，其实和那个涉嫌违法的问题——你现在的薪资是多少——诡异得相似。
It's not entirely egregious, but one of the first things out of a recruiter's mouth is how much money do you want to make, Which is eerily similar to an illegal question, which is how much money do you make?
对吧？
Right?
但如果是你问对方‘你希望拿多少薪水？’
But if you say, what do you want to make?
那这种问法就没问题。
Then it's okay.
这也是很多人会纠结的点。
And that's where a lot of people get hung up as well.
我特别喜欢你刚才说的那句‘在我预期的x这个数字基础上，还有没有再多一点的空间？’
I love that phrase you just shared of what's what's the chance there's a bit more here as expecting number x?
你推荐的就是这种说法、这种温和试探的方式吗？
Is that is that the phrase you recommend, that approach of just a soft pushback just to see?
有时候是的。
Sometimes.
再者说，这其实完全要看你的职级。
Again, it it really depends on the leveling.
如果你是资深级别的员工，我一般不会建议用具体数字重新锚定薪资，因为你本该非常清楚自己的价值，绝不会不敢争取更高的报酬。
If you're very senior, I I typically don't wanna re anchor with a number because you should ever be so sure of what you're worth that you wouldn't accept more.
对吗？
Right?
而一旦你自己给出了一个数字，那这个数字就会成为你的薪酬上限。
And when you anchor, that's the ceiling.
而通常自然而然就会出现的情况是，对方会想要折中平分这个差价。
And what often happens is naturally, they wanna split the difference.
关于这点，我可以马上讲一个好莱坞的小故事来举例。
And so I'll have a quick there's a quick Hollywood story here.
之前有一位编剧拿到了一份70万美元的合同。
So we had a writer who had a $700,000 contract.
是这样的。
Right?
就这个70万的合同，当时和我合作的那位经纪人就说，这位编剧雇了洛杉矶态度最强硬的律师团队。
So 700, and the agent that I was working with was was saying, like, this, this writer has the most aggressive attorneys in LA.
没错吧？
Right?
他们态度特别强硬。
They're super aggressive.
然后我就问，哦，你是怎么知道的？
And I said, well, how do you know?
首先啊，如果大家都对他们有这样的印象。
First of all, well, if that's what they're perceived as.
于是制片方给这位编剧开了70万的酬劳。
So the production studio offers this writer 700.
对方的律师回复说，我们要130万。
The attorneys come back and say, we want 1.3.
懂吧？
Right?
也就是130万美元整。
1,300,000.0.
然后制片方直接说，没问题。
And the studio says, fine.
我们出一百万，最后他们就以一百万的价格达成了和解。
We'll do 1,000,000, and they settled at a million.
我觉得这事特别有意思，因为制片方加了三十万，律师方这边少了三十万。
And I find that really interesting because the studio came up 300,000 and the attorneys lost 300,000.
相当于你们把差价平摊，各让了一步，卡在中间的数成交了。
So you split the difference right in the middle.
那如果律师当初要150万，这笔交易最后会以110万成交吗？
So if the attorneys said 1.5, would the deal have come in at 1.1?
要是律师要170万，最后会以120万成交吗？
If the attorney said 1.7, would it have come in at 1.2?
对吧？
Right?
我们哪说得准呢？
How do we know?
在我看来，就是那些律师还不够强势。
The way I see it is those attorneys weren't aggressive enough.
我们没探到那里的上限，不是吗？
We didn't find the ceiling there, did we?
说白了，这场谈判谈得太敷衍了。
Like, that was lazy negotiating.
对吧？
Right?
所以客户还是拿到了30万美元。
So it still made the client 300,000.
他们都很高兴。
They were excited.
对吧？
Right?
律师们也很高兴。
The attorneys were excited.
他们能拿到更多佣金了。
They made more on their commission.
代理公司也很满意。
The agency was excited.
他们从中拿到了10%的收益，但我们并没有挖到利润上限，不是吗？
They got 10% of that, but we didn't find the ceiling, did we?
那场谈判实在太敷衍了。
That was lazy negotiating.
对吧？
Right?
所以这些事都得沉下心来，才能真正搞清楚这里的价值到底是怎么产生的。
So those are things that you gotta slow down to really understand where is the value being made here.
还有那部电影，说真的，那部电影能赚5000万美元。
And that movie, like, that movie could make $50,000,000.
对于一个掌控着创作大权的人来说，你觉得拿100万美元的编剧酬劳值得吗？
You think 1,000,000 for writing was worth it for someone who controlled the creative there?
我不好说。
I don't know.
这笔交易的价值兑换比是1:50，那为什么不争取更多呢？
A 50 to one value exchange, why not push for more?
为什么不加上一些里程碑条款呢？比如如果这部电影的票房超过5000万，我的里程碑奖金就提升？
Why not put some milestones in that if this movie makes more than 50, my milestone is increased?
汤姆·布雷迪在坦帕湾海盗队的合同就是这么签的。
This is how, like, Tom Brady had his contract at Tampa Bay.
对不对？
Right?
赢下8场比赛，就能拿到50万美元。
Win eight games, get a half $1,000,000.
赢下12场，就能拿到150万美元。
Win 12 games, get a million 5.
打进季后赛，还能额外拿到这笔钱。
Go to the playoffs, get an extra this.
赢下分区冠军，还能拿到那笔钱。
Win the division, get this.
进超级碗的话，就能拿到这笔钱。
Get this get to the Super Bowl x.
如果拿到超级碗MVP，还能再多拿250万。
Win Super Bowl MVP, two and a half million more.
就是这种和绩效挂钩的触发条件。
Like, so performance based triggers.
我真的看得出来你有多喜欢聊这个。
I love just how how much you love this.
很明显你对这事特别感兴趣。
It's just clear this is so interesting.
这事确实挺小众硬核的。
It's so it's really nerdy.
我知道啊。
I know.
我甚至会有点反常地满脑子琢磨这事，不过我也说不好。
Like, I I'd, like, obsess over it in a in a weird way, but, I don't know.
这种思维模式已经在我心里扎根很久了，大概是因为我成长过程中一直觉得自己无能为力，所以才会对权力的运作方式这么感兴趣。
It's it's been kinda baked into my my psyche for a long time, probably because I I felt so powerless growing up that I'm so interested in how how power works.
而且以前我根本不敢为自己争取，在遇到我妻子之前，我是你能认识的人里最没主见的那个。
And I was so scared to advocate for myself, and I was the least assertive person that you knew until I met my wife.
是她教会了我要坚持自己的立场，现在我已经完全放开了，做得得心应手。
And she taught me how to be assertive, and now I'm, like, off to the races.
她的帮助真的很大。
So that's been helpful.
说到这个，那这些技巧能用在孩子和妻子身上吗？
On that note, do these tactics work on on kids and wives?
这套逻辑能套用在他们身上吗？
Is this something that translates
绝对不行。
Absolutely not.
我完全不建议这么做，尤其是如果你妻子清楚你的职业，还天天听你打电话聊这些的话，就更不能了。
I would not recommend that, especially if your wife knows what you do for a living and hears you on the phone all the time.
然后你试着开口问，这能有多大几率成功呢？
And you try to say, what's the chance?
结果她立马说，不可能。
And she's like, no chance.
别、别跟我来那套。
What's don't don't pull that on me.
我清楚你在打什么算盘。
I know what you're doing.
对吧？
Right?
还有学步期的小屁孩就像小魔王一样，所以这点我还没摸透。
And toddlers are terrorists, so I don't I haven't figured that one out.
我最后只能靠贿赂，对付这种小不点，这说起来还有点马基雅维利那味儿了。
I I've resort to bribes, and maybe that is a little Machiavellian on the on the toddlers.
你为了搞定他们都能忙得晕头转向，但记住，别对你的配偶用这招，真的不推荐。
You can be you can be out of your mind working on that, but, yeah, don't recommend it with your spouse.
我愿意花大价钱买一个像你这样能对付学步期小孩的专属版本。
I would pay a lot of money for a version of you for toddlers.
我的天呐。
Oh my god.
我试过跟大一点的孩子讨价还价。
It's like I try to negotiate with the older kid.
我跟他说，就三分钟。
I'm like I'm like, three minutes.
他跟我要六分钟。
He's like, six.
我跟他说，四分钟。
I'm like, four minutes.
他说不行。
No.
就要六分钟。
Six.
他从来不会规划时间用量。
He never budgets.
他总喊着要五分钟。
He's always Five minutes.
他会说要八分钟。
He's like, eight.
不过有时候他也会像你家孩子那样抬价。
Although sometimes does that too.
对。
Yeah.
我就问他：‘你要不要安抚奶嘴？’
I I go, do you do you want a binky?
结果他说要五个安抚奶嘴。
And he goes, five binkies.
我就说：‘我也不知道咱们有没有五个啊。’
I go, I don't know if we have five.
然后他就说，要十个安抚奶嘴。
And he's like, 10 binkies.
就是不管你要什么，只要你去睡觉，我都给你拿来。
Like, whatever you need, I'll get it if you go to sleep.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
求求了快睡吧。
Please sleep.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们得把这个法子用在 toddler 身上才行。
We need we need this for toddlers.
我绝对、绝对愿意为此买单订阅。
I would I would I would subscribe.
瑞秋小姐的那个是我们目前能找到的最接近的了
Miss Rachel's the closest thing we
的东西了。
got.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
那咱们回到这个关于薪资数字的话题上。
So coming back to this conversation number.
你之前已经稍微提到过这一点了，而且我觉得这是你的建议里很重要的一部分：当被问到期望薪资这个问题时，应该谁先开口？
So you've touched on this a bit, and I think this is an important part of your advice is when the number question comes up, who should speak first?
如果对方问你“你希望拿多少薪水”，你该采取什么样的应对方式？
What should your approach be if they ask you this question of how much do you want to make?
对。
Yeah.
这件事里也有不少需要仔细考量的细节。
There's there's a decent amount of nuance in this too.
所以你得明白一点：尤其是在你职业生涯的早期，对方在这个问题上的施压会更厉害。
So one thing you should realize is that, especially earlier in your career, they're gonna push on this harder.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这种情况就说明，提问的人本质上是想招一个同质化、对价格比较敏感的员工。
And that indicates that the person asking is really more looking for a a commoditized or a price sensitive hire.
对吧？
Right?
这种情况也不是不能接受。
That can be okay.
对吧？
Right?
在职业生涯早期甚至中期，说出你的薪资数字，达成一份能推动你发展的协议，这本身并没有什么问题。
There's nothing wrong with with sharing your number and getting a deal that that moves the needle early in your career or even middle of your career.
但随着你在职业阶梯上越爬越高，情况就不一样了。
That changes the higher up the ladder you go.
这也是我想分享这点的原因之一：带你走到当前位置的经验，无法帮你抵达下一个阶段。
And this is one of the reasons I wanna share this is that what got you here won't get you there.
对吧？
Right?
所以随着你的职业发展逐渐成熟，情况会开始发生变化。
So things start changing as you mature in your career.
当你和顶尖的猎头合作时，他们不会主动问你薪资要求。
And so when you're working with a top recruiter, they don't ask you about comp.
他们绝不会这么做。
They won't.
问题在于，顶尖猎头只会在你知名度很高的时候才联系你，而且他们不会频繁找你。
The problem is top recruiters only reach out to you when you're very well known, and they don't reach out to you very often.
情况就是，职位越高，你就越难获得主动找上门的机会，除非你变得极具知名度。
It's like you it's very difficult to optimize for inbound attention the higher up you go unless you become very popular.
对吧？
Right?
于是你就会开始透露更少的个人信息，因为人们来找你的目的和从前不一样了。
And then what happens is you share less information because people come to you in a different capacity.
对吧？
Right?
所以十有八九，主动联系你的招聘人员都会问你的薪酬数字。
So nine times out of 10, a recruiter reaching out to you is gonna ask that number.
对吧？
Right?
只有十分之一的招聘者会纯粹聚焦于能为你创造的价值。
One time out of 10, they're gonna just focus on the value creation.
而这些才是你最应该优先留意的优质招聘方。
Those are the ones you wanna focus on the best possible.
但这很容易让人困惑，因为你往往会听到截然不同的说法，接触到的大多都是那种流水线式的常规问题。
But it could be confusing because so often you get a different side of the story, more of the commodity type stuff.
所以一般来说，我建议你这么回答。
So, typically, I'd recommend you answer.
对吧？
Right?
在我们准备好给出录用offer之前，我不会谈论薪酬相关的事。
I don't talk about compensation until we're ready to make an offer.
现在听起来我们离那一步还早得很呢。
It sounds like we're pretty far away there.
我很希望有机会多了解一下这个团队，清楚这个岗位的价值在哪里，先顺着这个方向推进，确保我们双方都合适。
I'd love the opportunity to learn more about the team, understand where the value comes in, and proceed kinda down that path to make sure we're a good fit.
这么说会有问题吗？
Is that gonna be a problem?
然后通常对方就会说，好的。
And then typically, they'll say, yeah.
那就会出问题了。
It is gonna be a problem.
我就是得知道一个具体的薪资数字。
I just need to know a number.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，来回拉扯还要拒绝对方是件很尴尬的事，尤其是美国人很难开口说拒绝的话。
Now, I mean, this is what it's very uncomfortable to do this back and forth and to say no, especially Americans have a hard time saying no.
我注意到其他文化背景的人就能更直接，直接说不行就好了。
I have noticed that other cultures can be more direct and just say, no.
我不会这么做的。
I'm not gonna do it.
对吧？
Right?
那也没办法，顺其自然就好。
So be it.
对吧？
Right?
所以在文化层面上，这类对话的开展方式存在诸多差异。
So culturally, there's a lot of differences in how this conversation happens.
然后他们就会说，那个。
And so they say, look.
我们这边需要你给出一个数字。
We we we need a number from you.
你就可以说，那个。
You might say, look.
我现在不太方便这么做，因为我还不了解这个岗位的工作范畴。
I'm uncomfortable doing that right now because I don't understand the scope of the role.
你能帮我弄清楚你们的规划是什么吗？
Can you help me understand what you had in mind?
对吧？
Right?
我之所以了解这些，是因为我曾经在旧金山市区为A级创业公司做营销经理，那时时薪只有12美元。
The reason I learned this is I used to be a marketing manager making $12 an hour in Downtown San Francisco for series a companies.
我当时完全没意识到12美元的时薪其实很低。
Not knowing that $12 an hour wasn't a lot of money.
我只是根本不懂这些行情。
I just didn't know any better.
后来我查了营销经理的薪资水平，发现这个岗位的年薪能有6万美元，我才突然意识到自己的薪资低得离谱，感觉深受冒犯。
But then I looked up marketing managers, and I saw that they made $60 a year, and I was suddenly got offended at how little money I was making.
对吧？
Right?
那段时间里我还被升成了主管，时薪涨到了14美元。
Then I got promoted to director in that period and was making $14 an hour.
听起来还不错是吧。
Good for me.
对吧？
Right?
后来我查了一下，当时市场上的营销总监年薪能到11万美元。
And then I saw that marketing directors were making a 110,000 at the time.
所以后来有猎头打电话给我的时候，我就用上了这个信息。
So when a recruiter called me, I pulled that.
我才不想告诉他我当时时薪只有14美元。
I didn't wanna tell him I was making $14 an hour.
不然他们肯定会嘀咕，这小孩是谁啊？
They'd be like, who is this kid?
肯定会觉得我能力不行。
He's not very good.
觉得我那个总监头衔就是个虚的。
That's fake title.
于是我反过来问他：你们这边开出的条件是什么？
And instead, said, what did you have in mind?
然后他们就说：哦，我们这边开出的年薪大概在11万到13万美元之间。
They And said, oh, we're looking at a 110 to a 130.
然后我就说，哦，我现在希望能拿到这个区间的上限。
And I'd say, oh, I'm on the upper end of that now.
就这么一步，我在一个月之内从时薪14美元变成了年薪12万美元。
And so I went from $14 an hour to a $120,000 a year in a single month a single jump.
就这么简单。
Just like that.
那件事彻底改变了我的人生。
That changed my life.
就靠一次谈判。
One negotiation.
这也是我对这件事满怀热忱的原因之一。
It's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about that.
说句实在话，我本来很讨厌那份营销工作，但我当时想，如果我能赚大钱，这份工作带来的不快就能烟消云散了。
I hated the marketing work for what it's worth, but I thought, like, if I made a lot of money, it would make that pain go away of not liking my job.
后来才发现，这个想法根本就是白费功夫，不过这件事咱们改天再聊。
Turns out that was a fool's errand, but that's a story for another time.
以你的经历来看，你这么做的时候有没有出过问题？
Do things in your experience ever fall apart when you try to do that?
因为要做出这种拒绝真的太需要勇气了，就直接说‘不，我不会告诉你我的薪资数字’。
Because that is a scary thing to push back on, just like, no, I'm not gonna tell you number.
而且你现在在教我们怎么用得体的方式说出这句话。
And you're giving us advice on how to say it in a nice way.
然后接着问‘那你们这边的薪资范围是多少呢？’
And then just like, what did you have in mind?
大家会担心的是，万一雇主讨厌我，然后觉得‘哦，这个人不值得用’怎么办。
The fear is like, okay, they're gonna hate me and they're gonna be like, oh, it's not worth it.
然后就直接跳过我，招别人了。
We're gonna move on.
这种情况发生过吗？
Has that ever happened?
这种事发生的概率有多大？
What are the odds that might happen?
关于权力，我想讲几点。
A couple things about power.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果你有说不的底气，那你就拥有了无穷的力量。
So if you have the ability to say no, you have infinite power.
对吧？
Right?
但情况会有微妙的变化：如果你还没找到工作，又得偿还房贷，那你可能就会给出不一样的回答，因为你急需要一份收入。
The nuance changes when when you don't have a job and you need to pay your mortgage, you might answer that differently because you want something.
对吧？
Right?
我这么说绝对不是要指责有这种难处的人。
Now this isn't to shame somebody who's feeling that way.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，如果你在旧金山失业六周，你就会无家可归。
Like, if you're out of work for six weeks in San Francisco, you're homeless.
对吧？
Right?
这就是当下的现实情况。
That's just the reality of the situation.
所以如果我必须说个数字才能得到这份工作，我觉得这么做没问题。
So if I gotta say a number to get a job, I I think that's fine.
对吧？
Right?
但要明白，一旦你有了工作，你的基本需求都已经得到满足了，那为什么还要任由别人摆布呢？
But understand that once you're employed and somebody's asking you and your needs are already getting met, why do you need to get pushed around?
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么在职的时候更容易找到新工作的原因之一。
This is one reason that it's easier to find a job when you have a job.
在我看来，这个说法站不住脚，但之所以说有工作时找工作更容易，是因为那时候你的经济需求至少在一定程度上已经得到了满足。
Now I think this is a myth for what it's worth, but this is easier because naturally your needs are getting met financially to a degree.
所以你谈判的时候自然会更有底气。
So naturally, you negotiate more confident.
可如果你失业了，要承受失业六个月、十二个月、十八个月的煎熬，而你之前的身份一直是首席产品官或是产品副总裁，早就和这个职位绑定了。
When you're out of work and you have the uncomfort of being out of work six months, twelve months, eighteen months, you have an identity tied to a chief product officer role or a VP of product.
在我们国家，那就是你的身份标签。
Like, that's your identity in our country.
没人会问你是什么样的人，也不会关心你的孩子过得怎么样。
We don't ask who you are and about your kids.
大家只会问：你是做什么工作的？
We say, what do you do for a living?
当你被剥夺了这个头衔，那种感觉非常难受，你只想快点摆脱这种痛苦。
And when you are stripped of that title, it's uncomfortable, and we want that pain to end.
于是你就会对那些要求妥协，因为提出要求的是手握话语权的人，而你只想早点结束这种煎熬。
And so we give in to these demands because it's an authoritative figure, and we want that pain to go away.
如果我们有足够的经济条件，拥有说“不”的底气，我们就能掌握更多主动权。
If we have the finances and the luxury of being able to say no, we increase our power.
如果我们有能力提出异议，练习应对这些艰难的谈判，你的话语权就会提升，也会因此拿到更优的待遇。
If we have the ability to push back and practice these difficult conversations, you will increase your power, and you'll you'll land at a higher rate because of it.
那这个过程会不会让人觉得受挫？
So can it get frustrated?
当然会。
Absolutely.
但如果有人在这个过程中不尊重你，这不就正好能让你看清这家公司是什么样的吗？
But if somebody disrespects you through that process, doesn't that give you an indication of who the company is working with?
对吧？
Right?
话说回来，我也可能因为急用钱而接受这种情况。
Now, again, I might accept that because I need the money.
这一点我完全理解。
I understand.
对吧？
Right?
但仅仅通过几次简单的拒绝试探，对方会如何对待你这件事就已经很能说明问题了。
But it's very telling how somebody's gonna treat you depending on very simple pushbacks.
这里有一个行为心理学小技巧：我们可以给对方安一个他们想要维持住的正面人设，不管他们配不配得上这个人设。
And one behavioral psychology hack here is we give someone a a positive reputation that they want to withhold whether they deserve it or not.
放到这个场景里，你就可以对招聘人员说：非常感谢你一直支持我，也感谢你尊重我目前不愿透露薪资数字的决定。
So in this instance, you'd say the recruiter, I wanna thank you for being an advocate for me and for respecting that I won't share compensation figures right now.
非常感谢你这么做。
I appreciate that.
那他们就陷入被动了。
And then they're trapped.
他们总不能开口说：
They have to say, no.
我才不尊重你呢。
I don't respect you.
我就得这么做。
I have to do this.
不然他们只能说，你说得对。
Or they have to say, you're right.
比如，这说得通。
Like, that makes sense.
我来推进你的申请流程，或者不推进。
Let me move you forward or not.
对吧？
Right?
还有另一种情况：你不一定清楚自己是不是这个职位的最佳人选。
Another option, you don't necessarily know if you're the best solution for that fit or not.
我们往往会陷入一种固定思维：当招聘方联系你，跟你说：‘你看’。
And so we're obviously very ingrained when a recruiter reaches out to you and they say, look.
‘我们能出1.2万的薪水，而你现在赚1.5万’，你就会说，‘哦，我不感兴趣’。
We're gonna pay $1.20, and you make $1.50, and you're like, oh, I'm not interested.
这差距也太大了。
That's not even close.
我还是建议你继续走完整个流程，把这当成一场谈薪练习，而且你之后随时都能拒绝对方。
I would recommend continuing that process anyway to see as practice what you can negotiate, and you can always say no later.
对吧？
Right?
仅仅是积累这种练习，就能在你的整个职业生涯中帮你多赚几十万，甚至上百万的收入。
Just because having that practice is gonna make you hundreds of thousands, if not millions more in your career.
换一种情况，如果你会因为「我的要求超出了他们的需求，是不是浪费了对方的时间」而感到愧疚，那你可以给他们推荐合适的人选。
Alternatively, if you feel bad about, oh, I wasted their time because I was too much for what they needed, make recommendations for them.
比如当对方发来offer时，他们给的是高级项目经理岗位，但你发现岗位描述和实际工作内容其实符合总监级别的要求，可他们却不愿意按总监的级别付薪。
So when the offer comes in in usage, they gave us a senior PM role and what you've realized is the JD and all of the work that you did is actually a director role, but they're not gonna pay for a director role.
对吧？
Right?
这种情况发生得还少吗？
How often does that happen?
你就可以说，你看。
You get to say, look.
你也知道，这个岗位和我的发展方向不符。
You know, this role isn't in alignment with where we're headed.
对吧？
Right?
你需要我帮你推荐一个更合适的人选吗？
Would you like me to make an introduction to somebody that's a better fit?
这样你还是帮到了他们。
So you still get to help them.
你也顺理成章地退出了。
You remove yourself.
还有的时候他们会说，不用了。
And then sometimes they say, no.
其实我们也想把这个岗位的级别设得更高。
Actually, we do want the role to be more senior.
我们会为你把这个职位的等级提上来。
We're gonna extend for you.
就像我当初拒绝了一份7万美元的内容经理岗位，六个月后就拿到了一份25万美元的副总裁职位，那是我的第一个副总裁岗位。
Like, my first VP role came out of turning down a content manager position for 70,000, and six months later, I landed a VP for a quarter million.
那是我第一次踏入副总裁级别的工作。
Like, that was my my first realm into VP.
最开始给我的邀约是内容经理岗位。
The initial offer was for content manager.
结果他们主动把职位的等级连升了三四级。
So they came three, four levels up the food chain.
那场谈判持续了很久，但只要你不仓促拒绝，这种事是有可能发生的。
That was a long negotiation, but these things can happen if you don't say no too quickly.
顺着这个话题，我想聊聊你这套做事的核心理念，那就是跳出特定岗位的固有薪资基准，反过来明确告诉公司：我会帮你解决这个对你至关重要的难题，这个难题对你来说影响重大，所以我要的额外薪资完全物有所值。
So along these lines, wanna touch on it feels like maybe the core, approach you take, kind of the core to your philosophy, which is to kind of break out of this idea of some benchmark for a specific role and instead make it very clear to the company, here's the pain I will solve for you that is really important to you, and here's why it's worth paying me this much more because it's such a big problem for you.
来聊聊这种思维模式吧。
Talk about just that mindset.
所以这本质上就要求你怀揣好奇心，去主动探究公司真正的痛点是什么。
So this really comes down to having curiosity and showing curiosity about the actual problem.
因为通常来说，如果我在给400人的会场做分享——我偶尔会和一些社群合作做这类分享——我会问在场的人：有谁真正在做自己职位描述里写的那份工作？
Because usually, if I'm speaking to a room of 400 people, right, which I I'll occasionally do with some communities, I'll ask them, who is actually doing the job that's on their job description?
根本没人会举手。
Nobody will raise their hand.
现实里不可能有人真的只照着职位描述里的内容干活。
It's not like you have your job description right there, and that's what you do.
对吧？
Right?
总有太多未被写进文档里的工作要处理。
There's always so much more that's not documented.
没错吧？
Right?
那当你去应聘一个岗位，看到那上面的职位描述时，你肯定会说，对啊。
Now when you're going into a position and you see a JD, you're like, yeah.
这些事我都能完成，但实际要做的远不止这些。
I could do all those things, but there's so much more.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么太早把薪资和某个数字绑定会出问题的另一个原因——你会先入为主地觉得，这个薪资对于高级产品经理岗位来说是合理的。
This is another reason that anchoring to a number too early is tough because you anchor to, oh, this is this is fair for a senior PM role.
对吧？
Right?
这个待遇是公平的。
This is fair.
之后你就开始参与面试流程。
Then you go through the process of the interviewing.
结果会发现这个岗位明明白白就是总监级别的职位。
It's very clear that it's a director role.
你要带领五个人的团队。
You're gonna leave five people.
他们会把另一个团队也划归到你手下。
They scoop another team under you.
哦，我们还准备把产品驱动增长的业务线也交给你负责。
Oh, we're gonna put a product led growth motion under you too.
还有一整个工程小组，以及其他各种各样的资源和安排。
There's an whole engineering pod, and there's this, and there's this.
突然间，这就演变成了工作范围的无端扩张。
All of a sudden, that's called scope creep.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们就悄悄把这个岗位的工作范围给扩张了。
So they scope creep the role.
他们会一直说自己想要招一位资深的资深员工。
They talk about how they want a senior hire.
他们还表现出对你很满意的样子。
They're excited about you.
他们先让你对这个机会动心。
They get you excited about it.
然后他们给你发offer，开出的薪资居然比你最初提的预期低了20%。
And then then they give you the offer, and it's actually 20% under the number you originally shared.
这时候你可能会说，行吧。
And then you say, okay.
但这职位听着明明是主管级别的，
Well, this looks like a director role.
我理应拿到x薪资。
I want x.
结果对方会反驳你：可你之前说你只要14万（年薪）啊。
And they say, but you said you only wanted one forty.
他们就拿你之前说过的数字来压你，这时候再想挽回局面就非常棘手了。
Now they're using a number against you, and it's very awkward to come back from that.
所以我们才不能太早抛出自己的薪资底线。
And so that's why we don't wanna anchor too early.
我们要先了解清楚情况。
We wanna understand.
这就是我特别希望产品工程师、设计师这类产品线的从业者都能明白的一个道理。
And so this is one thing I wish, especially product engineers, designers, that side of the the the product stack.
我真心建议大家把这类谈判都当成销售沟通来处理。
I would love for you to treat more of these like a sales conversation.
对吧？
Right?
你本身就代表了一套企业级解决方案，一套咨询解决方案。
You are an enterprise solution, a consulting solution.
这套方案的年价值能有几十万美元，说不准甚至能达到数百万美元。
That is several $100,000, if not millions of dollars a year.
如果你要把这套产品卖给某个企业，想想企业级B2B交易的场景——我知道我在这里用了点行业术语。
If you were to sell that product into an organization, think enterprise b to b deals, and I know I'm getting a little buzzword here.
就好比你要把一套价值150万美元的产品卖给 Salesforce，做成一笔企业级B2B交易。
Think an enterprise b to b deal to Salesforce, and you're gonna sell a million and a half dollar product.
你需要花18个月的时间来建立人脉关系，最终敲定这笔交易。
It would take you eighteen months to develop the relationships and close that deal.
你得在这家企业内部发展出支持你的支持者。
You have to develop champions in the organization.
你必须弄清楚你能为这些人各自创造什么价值，这样他们才会为你站台。
You have to understand what value you can create for each of those people so that they can advocate for you.
你不可能一上来就直接给他们报价格。
You don't come in and pitch them the price right off the bat.
你得先理清这个价值到底是什么。
You need to understand the value.
所以整个流程其实是一个发掘探索的过程。
So through the process, it's a discovery process.
我为什么会出现在这里？
Why am I here?
我身上的哪些点会让你感兴趣？
What gets you excited about me?
对吧？
Right?
我们就是这么开启一段对话的。
That's how we start a conversation.
太多面试开场都是‘介绍一下你自己吧’，你懂的。
Too many interviews start with, you know, tell me about yourself.
聊聊你过去做过的那些事。
Tell me about this stuff in the past.
如果全程都在聊自己的过去，那你就陷入被动了，这场对话你已经输了。
If you're talking about your past, you're on the back foot, and you're losing that conversation.
全程只有你在往外透露信息。
You're the one revealing information.
你根本得不到任何有用的内容。
You're not getting anything.
而我们想要开启的对话应该是这样的，听我说。
We instead wanna have a conversation and say, look.
我经历过的最棒的几场面试，感觉都更像是咨询会或者头脑风暴。
Some of the best interviews I've always had felt a little bit more like consultations or brainstorming sessions.
你今天愿意和我这样聊一聊吗？
Are you open to having a chat like that today?
这就是第一步。
That's the first step.
一般来说，对方都会说好的。
Typically, say, yeah.
这可比我一个劲追着你问问题好多了。
That sounds way better than me trying to drill you with questions.
那我来问你啊。
So let me ask you.
比如，最近有什么让你觉得兴奋的事吗？
Like, what are some of the things that you're excited about?
莱尼，我猜你愿意和我聊，是因为我能帮你的部分观众搞定谈判的事。
I imagine, Lenny, you're excited to talk to me because I can help some of your audience negotiate.
你已经亲眼见证了，你的几十位订阅者靠着我们合写的那篇文章多赚了钱。
You've seen proof where dozens of your subscribers have made more money with the article we wrote together.
你甚至还发现，你的一些嘉宾在不知情的情况下，用我总结的谈判方法反过来和别人谈成了合作。
You've even seen that some of your guests unknowingly have been negotiated against with some of the work that I've done.
有没有什么地方是我没说到的？
Is there anything that I missed?
那对你来说有什么值得期待的地方吗？
What's exciting to you?
所以我想先讲清楚，为什么今天我会和你一起交流。
So I wanna clarify why I'm in the room with you.
对吧？
Right?
这就是我们作为项目管理办公室（PMO）在做的事。
So we do that as a PMO.
感觉接下来我们该进入分类梳理的环节了。
Sounds like now we move to labeling.
听起来你这条产品线现在遇到了难题。
It sounds like you have a challenge with this product line.
听起来我们需要加快产品的推进或交付速度。
It sounds like we need to move or ship product faster.
听起来人工智能目前是个问题，我们需要转向原生人工智能方向。
It sounds like AI has been a problem, and we need to shift towards native AI.
还有什么我遗漏的内容吗？
Is there anything that I missed?
对吧？
Right?
之后他们就会透露相关信息了。
Then they're revealing information.
你就能主导这场对话。
You take control of that conversation.
接下来我们想问问，你针对这个问题已经采取了哪些措施？
And then we wanna share, what have you done about it?
比如说，这个问题在整个公司里到底有多严重？
Like, how big of a problem is this in the organization?
这基本上就是一场SWOT分析。
This is basically a SWAT analysis.
比如，我们有哪些做得好的地方？
Like, what are some of the things you've done well?
团队在哪些领域做得不到位？
What are some of the areas that the team failed?
有哪些我们本该去做但目前还没开展的事？
What are some of the things we should be doing that we're not?
又有哪些是我们绝对不能碰的事情？
And what are some of the things we absolutely shouldn't touch?
所以我打算补充一下，我想要把这些调研类的问题都问清楚。
So I wanna add I wanna ask all these discovery questions.
他们就会说，哦，你看啊。
They're like, oh, look.
这是一个价值一千万美元的难题——我们在六个月里换了五任产品经理，现在你也开始摸清公司里那些藏着的烂摊子了。
It's a it's a $10,000,000 problem where we've we've gone through five different PMs in six months, and you're starting to understand where the dirty laundry in the company is.
之后我们就能推销这副“美好蓝图”了。
Then we get to sell the vacation.
对吧？
Right?
然后我们就可以说，你看。
Then we get to say, look.
好的。
Alright.
那咱们把时间快进到六个月后，假设我们那时一起在处理这个问题，也已经解决了工程部、设计部或是其他任何部门的人员流失问题。
So fast forward six months from now and we're working on this problem together, and we've solved the churn in the engineering department or in the design department or whatever.
我们搞定了这些问题，还顺利完成了两次产品发布。
We've solved that, and we've got two product launches under our belt.
等你下次去开董事会的时候，我们要怎么做才能让你昂首挺胸、底气十足呢？
When you head into that board meeting next, how can we ensure that your head is held high?
所以我现在在做的，就是从心理上把他们带到一个没有任何痛苦的处境里。
So what I'm doing is I'm psychologically walking them to a position of, like, a painless position.
我帮他们卸掉了肩上的摩擦和压力，我引导他们去想象一个理想化的场景，以及在这个场景里，谁正陪在他们身边一起实现这一切。
I've removed the friction and the pain from their shoulders, and I force them to visualize a utopian situation and who is right next to them doing that.
那个人就是我。
I was.
等聊到和我和其他竞争者的时候，对他们来说根本不存在别的竞争者了。
So when it comes to your competition, there is no competition.
我是唯一一个能帮你步入理想状态的人——你能满心期待地昂首走进原本压力山大的董事会，而这次因为和我合作，那趟差事完全不会让你焦头烂额。
I'm the only person who walked you into a vacation that you want to be in looking forward to your head held high in a board meeting that's usually stressful, but instead this time because you worked with me, it's not stressful.
等到谈offer的阶段，可能还有其他五位产品经理可供选择，但他们心里只会想着和我雅各布合作。
Then all of a sudden when it comes to the offer stage, there may be five other PMs, but I can only imagine working with Jacob.
而当我提出要求、争取利益时，我打破规则的可能性会远高于我没做过前面这些铺垫的情况。
And so when I push back, the likelihood that I break the rules is significantly higher than if I hadn't done that.
这太厉害了。
This is amazing.
那我试着总结一下你刚才分享的内容，而且我觉得有一点很重要，得让大家明白：你完全可以用自己的话来实践这套方法。
So trying to just summarize what you're sharing here, and I think it's important for people to also note, like, you can do it in your own words.
这件事大概率不是你一下子就能上手做好的。
This is likely not something you'll just be able to pop out and do.
要把这件事做好需要花时间，而且刚开始做的时候，多半会觉得很别扭。
Like, this is something that takes time to do well, and it feels awkward probably.
这就是大家会找你合作的原因——感觉你肯定会针对这些场景做角色扮演练习，但即便如此，大家还是能从这套方法里提炼出一些可以自己独立实践的内容。
And that's why people work with you that feel like you probably role play in all these things, but still, like, there's things people can pull out of this that they can do on their own.
要搞清楚自己的价值所在，其实可能挺难的。
It it could be tricky to understand where your value is.
对吧？
Right?
因为你自己身处其中，离这件事太近了。
Because you're so close to it.
你每天都在做这些事，早就习以为常了。
You just do this every day.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。