为什么领英正将产品经理转变为AI驱动的“全栈构建者” | 托默·科恩（领英首席产品官）

这就是为什么我认为确实需要这种程度的投入。

This is why I think it does require that level of investment.

然后在某些情况下，让我们谈谈我们正在合作的设计代理。

And then in some cases, let's talk about the design agent that we're working with.

我们正与多家公司合作，试图找出最适合我们的产品。

We're working with multiple companies to try and understand which product works best for us.

有趣的是，这也是另一个发现——不同团队会倾向于选择不同的产品。

And interestingly enough, and this is another learning, different teams gravitate to different products.

所以这是我们必须要解决并思考如何妥善处理的问题，因为最终我们试图尽可能简化流程。

So that's like something we'll have to resolve and think about how we do this really well because ultimately we were trying to kind of simplify the process as much as possible.

但这对我们来说是个重要经验——关于选用哪些工具以及如何将它们整合进来。

But that's like a that was a big learning for us and how which tools we use and how we basically integrate them in.

明白了。

Got it.

所以可能你们有个很棒的Figma代理，但有些团队想用不同的设计工具。

So like you might have an amazing Figma agent, but some teams wanna use a different design tool.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我们尝试过Figma、subframe和magic patterns等工具，发现不同职能、认知水平和工具熟悉度的人会倾向于选择不同的工具。

So like, you know, we've kind of experimented with Figma and subframe and magic patterns and so on, and we saw people gravitating depending on the function, their level of visibility, their their know how of the tool before they're gravitating to different tools.

最终我不希望公司里有八种设计代理工具并存。

And ultimately I don't want to have eight design agents in the company.

所以我们至少要收敛到少数几种。

So we have to like converge into at least a few.

我认为很多领域都存在类似情况，因为这些代理工具虽然目标相似，但实现方式大不相同。

And I think it's similar across many areas because a lot of those agents are trying to solve similar end goal, but they're doing it very differently.

最终我认为不会出现赢家通吃的局面，因为客户或用户的起点将很大程度上决定哪种工具最适合他们的使用场景。

And what you'll see that ultimately, I don't think there's going to be a winner takes all because the starting point of the customer or the user will dictate a lot how simple they are for that use case.

非常有意思。

Super interesting.

另一个有趣的发现是你们正在设计非常专注单一功能的特定代理工具。

The other interesting takeaway here is you're designing very specific agents that are one job to be done.

这是一个非常刻意的决定吗？

Is that a very intentional decision?

你们有没有尝试过一个能处理所有这些事情的超级智能代理？

Did you try an agent that just is super intelligent on all these things?

最终，它们会成为一个协调者。

We're ultimately, they will do an orchestrator.

我们确实想要实现跨领域的协调，但我们需要能够准确评估这些代理的表现。

We're gonna really do orchestrator across, but we did wanna be able to rate and grade those agents really well on how they're doing.

我认为这需要一定程度的专业知识。

And I think there is a level of expertise.

我们现在构建的方式是能够掩盖其中的许多复杂性。

Now, we're kind of building this in a way where we'll be able to mask a lot of those.

你可能不会知道那里有一个信任代理。

You might not know that there's a trust agent.

我们内部称之为产品干扰代理，它主要负责产品干扰，这是我们内部的一个流程。

You might have, we call this internally the product jammer agent that basically does your product jam, which is a process we do internally.

你可能直接使用产品构思引擎，这个引擎会与其他所有智能体协同工作。

You might just use the product jam engine and that product jam engine will work with all the other agents.

但现在我们正从这些基础模块着手，直到构建出完整的协调层。

But now we're starting with that building blocks until we build our orchestrating layer across.

从你分享的内容中，另一个有趣的发现是大量工作都投入在产品开发流程的前期，比如帮助制定正确需求、明确信任标准，然后是产品构思环节，以及我们已经完成的研究。

Another interesting takeaway from what you've been sharing is that so much of the work has gone into the beginning of the product development process, just like helping you craft the right requirements, clarify trust, and then here's product jam, and here's the research we've done.

我猜这是因为编码工作已经通过这些IE工具得到了极大提速。

And I imagine it's because coding has already been accelerated with all these IE tools.

能否谈谈为什么投资重点放在这个环节，以及目前看到的最大影响体现在哪些方面？

Talk about just like why that's maybe where most of the investment's gone and where you've seen the most impact so far.

百分之百同意。

A 100%.

我们的编码投入其实早就开始了，这些系统现在已经完全就位运行。

Our coding investment has gone started, you know, a while back, and and those are full into place.

我们拥有自己的编码智能体。

We have our coding agent.

事实上，我们将其大致分为两个阶段。

In fact, we kind of stage it into two parts of it.

一部分是从构思到设计阶段，另一部分则是从编码到发布的环节。

There is the idea to design part, and then there's the let's go to the code to launch part.

编码到发布的环节已经获得了大量关注，我们在这方面取得了重大进展。

The code to launch part has gotten a lot of attention and we're making some big inroads there.

从编码代理到我们所谓的维护代理，涵盖了所有环节。

Everything from the coding agent to what we call the maintenance agent.

当构建失败时，它会自动为你处理。

When you have a failed build, it will do it for you.

实际上，我认为接近50%的构建工作已经由维护代理和质量保障代理完成了。

In fact, I think we're close to 50% of all those builds being done by the maintenance agent and a QA agent.

哇。

Wow.

所以这是在构建失败时，不再需要工程师手动处理问题。

So this is when a break builds instead of engineers hopping on the issues.

你还可以先喝完咖啡再去处理

You can still go and finish your coffee before you have

不必急着重新构建

to go and redo the build again.

简直太酷了

Extremely cool.

但在我们启动这个设计理念领域的项目之前，这方面的投入一直不多

But we haven't had much investment until we kind of launched this program in the idea to design area.

这是工作中实质性的一环

And that's a material part of work.

这也是许多工作质量的源头所在，至少在进入编码阶段之前

It's also where the quality a lot of the work comes from, at least before you start to go into the coding phase.

核心理念是赋能每个人

The idea is to empower everybody.

所以如果你是工程师，基本上可以在流程前端使用所有这些工具，成为全栈构建者

So if you're an engineer, you can basically use all those tools at the front of the process and be able to be a full stack builder.

你们花了多长时间才建立起这样的体系，组建第一支团队来开发这些初始代理和部分后端，并重构代码库这类工作？

How long did it take to get this kind of in place for you to actually form your first team to build these initial agents and some of this back end, redo the code base sort of thing?

我在去年年底内部宣布了这个项目，我们真正开始工作，但更多是在内部组建团队和流程。

I announced this internally end of last year, we really kind of started working, but it was more setting up the teams and processes internally.

我们已经有了这些代理的第一个MVP版本。

We had our first MVPs of those agents.

我想大概在真正训练后的四到五个月左右吧。

I think like four to five months after it was really trained, I would say.

但实际专注工作的时间大概只有几个月。

But really the work itself has been kind of couple of months of dedicated work.

大部分时间都花在整合数据语料库和清理数据上。

A lot of it has been getting all the corpus of data together, cleaning it up.

这其实也是个很好的学习过程。

That's actually a good learning as well.

比如，直接开放云端硬盘访问权限然后说'基于这个知识库进行推理'并不是个好主意。

Like, it's not great to just give it access to your drive and say, reason all over this knowledge base.

实际上它在理解过往重要性及对事物赋权方面表现很差。

It actually does a very poor job understanding importance of the past and putting weights on stuff.

你实际上需要仔细考虑要给它什么样的上下文窗口，以及你希望它专注于什么样的知识库。

You actually wanna think about specifically what the context window you wanna give it to and what's the knowledge base that you wanna have it focused on.

所以即便是清理数据——我们称之为黄金范例以供学习——也是我们最大的收获之一。

So even cleaning up, let's call them gold examples or golden examples to learn from has been one of the biggest learnings.

单纯对整个知识库进行推理是行不通的。

Just reasoning over your entire knowledge base did not work.

是的，这很合理。

Yeah, that makes sense.

就像可能有个研究者对某件事有强烈观点而你不同意，但它（系统）并不会知道。

There may be just like a researcher with a strong opinion about something that you disagree with and it wouldn't know.

它就像'哦这当然是数据，是事实'这样处理。

It's like, oh, of course this is data, this is fact.

确实如此。

Exactly.

而且它并不总能理解原始规范与成功之间的关联。

And then it doesn't always understand like ties to original specs to success.

你必须以这种非常有趣的方式去构建它。

You have to actually build this is a really interesting way.

当你考虑如何引入这些工具时，不能简单地直接引入。

When you think about how you bring those tools in, you can't just bring them in.

你必须清楚要为其提供什么内容。

You have to know what you feed them with.

你提供的内容不仅仅是访问权限。

And what you feed them with is not just access.

我看到很多人只关注连接性和集成。

I see a lot of people just focus on the connectivity and integration.

这让我想起大约十多年前，当我共同重建LinkedIn团队、重构信息流时，我们是从零开始的。

And it reminds me of the this is almost like this is actually more than 10 ago when I was co rebuilding the team, co rebuilding the feed at LinkedIn, and we started from scratch.

我不得不坐下来逐一筛选案例，判断哪些是LinkedIn上优质的专业帖子，哪些不是。

And I had to literally sit down and filter through examples of what is a good professional post on LinkedIn and what is not.

这项工作花费了我数周时间才整理出那些黄金范例样本，但最关键的部分在于填充正确的数据，而非所有数据。

And that was I'm not this was like weeks of work getting up with that golden sample of examples, but for the most important part was filling at the right data, not all the data.

所以这确实需要付出努力。

So it's it requires work.

我想说的是，对于许多正在考虑这一阶段的公司——如今我与多位首席产品官和首席执行官就此流程进行了大量讨论——你必须先投入这份前期工作，才能获得后续的收益。

It this is where I would say, like, for many companies who are thinking about this phase, and I do a lot of sessions today with CPOs and CEOs on this process, you have to put this initial work to get the gains after.

顺便说一句，我认为这其中蕴含着一个关于人工智能的普遍启示。

And when I think by the way, I think this is a I think there's a takeaway there in generally with AI.

即使你是初次接触AI，无论是通过Cursor工具还是设计软件，使用Figma或其他工具如Lovable，你都必须准备好先投入时间——只有这样才能在速度和质量上看到提升，但前提是你得付出那些时间。

Even if you're learning it for the first time and so on, whether it's cursor or whether it's design, if it's Figma or other tools or Lovable, you should be ready to invest those hours before you start seeing yourself pick up in velocity and quality, which will come up, but you have to invest that time.

本节目由Miro赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Miro.

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Every day, new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear.

但Miro近期的一项调查却展现了不同的故事。

But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.

76%的人认为AI能为他们的工作带来益处，但超过50%的人难以把握何时使用它。

76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.

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Enter Miro's innovation workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.

十多年来，Miro持续赋能团队，将大胆构想转化为下一个重大突破。

Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.

如今，他们通过释放AI与人类潜能的合力，正引领着产品更快面市的前沿浪潮。

Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.

本播客的嘉宾经常分享Miro模板。

Guests of this podcast often share Miro templates.

我经常用它和团队进行头脑风暴。

I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team.

团队尤其可以利用Miro AI，将便签、截图等非结构化数据，在数分钟内转化为可用的图表、产品简报、数据表和原型。

Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn unstructured data, like sticky notes or screenshots, into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.

你无需成为AI专家，也无需再切换另一个工具。

You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.

你在Miro画布上正在进行的工作本身就是提示。

The work you're already doing in Miro's Canvas is the prompt.

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Help your teams get great work done with Miro.

详情请访问miro.com/lenny。

Check it out at miro.com/lenny.

网址是miro.com/lenny。

That's miro.com/lenny.

试点项目目前进展如何？

What's the current state of the pilot?

规模有多大？

How large is it?

有多少团队参与其中？

How many teams are doing it?

你们已经交付了哪些成果？

What kind of stuff have you shipped?

给我们简单介绍一下目前的情况吧。

Just give us a sense of today's world.

好的。

Yeah.

应该说我们还没有达到很高的样本率，组织中使用它的人比例还不算特别高，但已经有相当一部分组织成员在使用它提供大量反馈。

So we are I wouldn't say we are yet at a very high sample rate where it's kind of a high percentage of the organization, but we have a substantial part of the organization already using it to provide a lot of the feedback.

我们看到了很多很好的例子。

We're seeing a lot of great examples.

我认为收益是实验数量乘以质量，再除以实施时间（从构想到上线）的函数。

So the way I think about the benefits is a function of experimentation volume multiplied by quality, how how good are those experiment experiments divided by the time it takes to actually pull them out, like idea to launch.

在节省时间方面，我们看到无论是产品经理、设计师还是工程师，现在每周都能节省数小时的工作时间，无论是之前提到的分析师助手、快速原型设计，还是产品头脑风暴体验都发挥了重要作用。

So on saving times, we're seeing whether it's PMs, designers, engineers saving hours of work a week right now, whether it's the analyst agent we talked about or they're prototyping really quickly or the product jamming experience has been a big part of that.

在质量方面，我们获得的洞察和讨论都变得好得多。

On the quality side, we're seeing insights, discussions just be much, much better.

顺便说一句，质量和时间有时会相互促进，因为高质量意味着更高效。

And by the way, quality and time, sometimes they help each other because it's high quality.

你不需要在某件事上花费太多时间。

You don't have to spend as much time on something.

我们正看到这一应用在推进中。

So we are seeing that applied in.

至于规模，虽然目前我还没看到组织内有很高比例的人参与其中，但一旦我们内部全面推广——虽然现在还没正式发布——未来几个月随着一切准备就绪，这种情况就会改变。

And the volume, you know, I wouldn't say we had a rate where I'm seeing a high percentage of organization doing it yet, but this will come once we we haven't GA ed this internally, but will come in the next couple of months because we have all the stuff in place.

但我们看到设计师和产品经理直接从Jira工单中抓取缺陷并推进解决，这是前所未有的现象。

But we're seeing designers and PMs picking up bugs directly from the, you know, from the from Jira tickets, pushing them in, something we haven't seen before.

而且大家都表现出强烈的参与意愿。

And there's just an appetite for everybody to just join.

实际上，目前最大的情况是每个人都想获得使用权限。

So in fact, the biggest thing right now is everybody wants access.

每个人都想获得工具的使用权限，以便能共同参与。

Everybody wants access to the tools to be able to do it together.

我们只想确保工具足够完善，能让整个组织都能高效运用。

And we just wanna make sure it's good enough to make sure the whole organization could do it really well.

那么你们是怎么进行任务分配的？

So how is it that you're piling it?

是有一部分人拥有使用这些智能体的权限，他们可以按照原有方式使用这些工具吗？

Is it there's some number of people have access to these agents and they just work the way they've worked with access to these tools?

还是说专门有个团队负责，规定这就是现在的工作方式，然后观察效果？

Or is there like a team dedicated, this is the way you work now and this is it, and we'll see what happens?

这个机制非常棒。

So it's very cool.

简单来说，我们有个核心团队正在为整个研发部门构建FSB（全栈构建者）体系。

So basically we have a team building, it's the core team building kind of the FSB track across all of R and D, FSB full stack builder.

同时还有多个小组团队正在使用这个系统。

And then there are pockets and pods of teams using it.

我们主要针对特定领域逐步推广使用。

So basically we are looking at specific areas that we're basically giving it to.

使用的前提条件是这些团队需要提供使用反馈。

The condition there is they give feedback as a response for that.

他们会让工具变得更好。

They make the tool better.

所以不仅仅是获取权限。

So it's not just access.

我们需要真正会使用它的人。

We want people who will use it.

通常早期使用者就是那些帮你把产品打磨得更好的人。

It's always one of your early adopters would be the ones who helped you ship the product really well.

所以我们目前采用小组模式推进。

So we're doing this in a pod model right now.

就像是

So it's like

一个大团队中的小组，比如由设计师、产品经理和工程师组成的小团队，在LinkedIn内部有某个部门正在试点吗？

a pod within a larger team, like a designer PM engineer kind of group within a Is there an example you have like a part of LinkedIn that's trying this out?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，当我想到我们的一些团队时，实际上我们刚刚推出了Symantec人才搜索和Symantec职位搜索功能。

So, if I think about some of our teams, whether it's actually, we just launched Symantec People Search and the Symantec Job Search as well.

那个团队当时就在使用部分工具来实际构建这个功能。

That team was using part of those tools to actually help build it.

所以这个团队的产品经理们实际上是在用这些工具自己搭建仪表板，而无需等待设计资源介入。

So that team actually this was PMs building their own dashboards with those tools without waiting for design resources to come in.

然后我们有个设计团队现在已经...你知道，这最初是由经理推动开始的。

Then we have a design team who is now already you know, this started really from the manager kind of rolling this out.

我在很多方面都告诉这个团队：不要等待正式发布，现在就开始行动。

And in many ways, what I tell this team is don't wait for the official GA, You know, start start doing it.

开始主动参与进来。

Start kind of leaning in.

我们看到那个团队的设计师们开始提交PR（代码合并请求），这在以前是从未发生过的。

We're seeing designers of that team starting to push kind of PRs, which never happened before.

现在其他团队也想效仿这种做法。

And now other teams, they wanna do this as well.

所以这是从这种基层经验开始的。

So it's it's starting with this kind of grassroots experience.

可以说，在我经历过的非常正式的场合中，最初是从高层开始的。

There is, I would say, there's the places I've been very formal, I would say at the beginning has been the top.

产品执行团队基本上是从职能负责人（设计、产品经理、业务发展等）转变为产品领域负责人，他们基本上横跨整个技术栈。

The product executive teams, basically, we move from functional leaders, design, PM, BD, and so on to product areas leaders, and they basically rock across the stack.

他们还会进行360度评估所有这些职能，看看是否真的能实现全栈开发体验。

And they also go for three sixty with all of those functions to see if they're really able to do a full stack building experience.

同时我们也在初级层面推出一个新项目，叫做'助理产品构建师计划'，我们原本有APM项目，但今年就要结束了。

Then we're also launching at kind of like the junior side, a new program called the Associate Product Builder Program, where we basically we used to have our APM program, which this is about it's ending this year.

从明年一月开始，我们将启动APB计划，这些新人将加入领英。

And then starting January, we're gonna start having our APB program, And they're gonna come into LinkedIn.

我们会教他们在领英如何编程、设计和做产品管理。

We're gonna teach them how to code, design, and PM at LinkedIn.

他们将经历相当严格的培训流程，然后加入那些产品小组。

They're gonna go through a pretty rigorous training process, and then they're gonna join those pods.

逐渐地，我们将把这个项目发展成LinkedIn的重要组成部分。

And gradually, we're gonna grow that program to be material part of LinkedIn as well.

哇。

Wow.

所以这可能就是APM项目的未来——这个全栈构建者项目。

So this might be the future of the APM program is this full stack builder program.

在很多方面，我们已经构建了一些非常棒的东西，我对那个团队感到非常兴奋。

In many ways, taking We've built some pretty amazing I'm really excited for that group.

真希望我也能加入。

I wish I could join it.

但我们为他们打造了非常棒的培训。

But we build amazing training for them.

我们将在很多方面利用这种培训来思考如何在整个组织中推广它。

And in many ways, we're gonna use that training to think about how we roll it across the organization.

我们采用的视角是：你拥有出色的技术能力，但尚未成为公司的工程师；或者你有绝佳的设计品味，但尚未在公司施展这项技能。

We're kind of using the lens of, you have great technical skills, but you're not an engineer at a company yet, or you have great design taste, but you haven't designed that skill in company yet.

我们会教你在LinkedIn如何操作，同时也会将这些培训广泛推广到整个公司。

We're gonna teach you how to do it at LinkedIn, but the training we're gonna use a lot to kind of extend across the company as well.

好的。

Okay.

所以你们有这些项目、试点和小组，你提到评估是否推广的标准是实验速度乘以质量再乘以时间。

So you have these programs, these pilots and these pods, and you said what you're looking at to see if this is something you roll out is experiment velocity times quality times time.

除以时间。

Divided by time.

按时间划分。

Divided by time.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Got it.

我想问一下，虽然现在还为时过早，但你刚才提到目前这个方案每周能为团队节省几个小时左右的时间，是这样吗？

And I guess, I know it's early, but just, you said it's, you're seeing that it's saving teams a few hours a week at this point, something like that?

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为反馈是最重要的部分，对吧？

And I think the feedback has been the most important part, right?

当你思考这个问题时，可以把它想象成开发一个产品。

When you kind of, the way to think about this is just like you build a product.

所以我们正在内部打造这个产品，你需要找些早期使用者来试验并获取反馈，而反馈一直非常出色。

So we're building this product internally, and you wanna experiment with some kind of early adopters who will give you feedback, and the feedback has been amazing.

事实上，在LinkedIn，我们的顶尖人才是使用这一工具最频繁的人群。他们不仅愿意投入时间，还积极提供反馈，这些反馈的质量令人惊叹。

In fact, our top talent are the ones who are using this the most at LinkedIn, And the feedback from them has been incredible in terms because they're they're also willing to spend the time and and give the the the feedback as well.

他们的响应同样令人惊叹，体现在产出质量上、为获取价值所投入的时间上，以及他们渴望参与其中、推广并优化这一工具的强烈意愿上。

And the response from them has been incredible in terms of, like, the quality of their output, the time they're spending on this to get the value back, their desire to kind of be part of this and actually scale this and make this even better.

因此，我的兴奋点主要来自于他们如何使用它，以及我们在此过程中见证的高质量成果。

So that's where I you know, a lot of the excitement has been from how they're using it and the quality we've seen there.

我想说，大约六个月后，我们将能看到更多组织成员使用它，届时那些关键数据指标也会随之增长。

I would say in six months or so, we'll be able to see a lot more of the organization use it and you'll start seeing kind of those top line numbers will grow as well.

这真是个有趣的发现，顶尖人才从中获益最多。

That is a really interesting insight that the top performers are finding the most success.

因为一直存在这个问题：AI会让普通员工变得出色，还是让出色员工更加卓越？

Because there's always been this question, is AI gonna just make people that are not amazing more amazing, or is it gonna make amazing people even more amazing?

听起来很可能是后者。

And it sounds like it's likely the latter.

是的。

Yes.

从很多方面来说，这确实令人惊讶。

And it's it's it's in many ways, it's surprising.

其实也不意外。

It's not surprising.

我在我们...时也见过这种情况，之所以惊讶是因为你希望所有人都能参与其中。

I've seen this also when we were it's surprising because you would you want everybody else to be part of this and lean in.

我认为顶尖人才有种持续精进的本能，他们天生就渴望站在技术创新的最前沿。

I think top talent has this tendency of continuously trying to get better at their craft and this innate need to be at the cutting edge of how you build.

我认为我们在这里也看到了同样的现象。

And I think we're seeing this here as well.

这就是为什么我常对团队说：如果我们打造了所有这些工具，他们会用吗？

This is why I've had this phrase I say with the team that if we build all those tools, will they use it?

而我现在已经知道答案是否定的。

And I know by now the answer is no.

仅仅给他们工具是不够的。

It's not enough to give them the tools to use it.

你必须建立激励机制、提供动力、并示范具体操作方法。

You have to build the incentives programs, the motivation, the examples to how you do it.

他们也需要看到其他人的成功案例。

They need to see other people being successful as well.

我在LinkedIn从桌面端转型移动端时也见证过这种情况。

And I've seen this also when we're shifting LinkedIn from a desktop company into a mobile company.

整个过程非常相似。

It was a very similar process.

这非常困难。

It's very hard.

变革管理将成为关键部分。

Change management here is gonna be a critical part.

我看到很多公司推出他们的智能体后，就指望企业会直接采用。

I think I see a lot of companies roll out their agents and just expecting companies to adopt.

事实并非如此。

Doesn't work this way.

有些会采用。

Some will adopt.

这通常属于那5%的尖端人才，他们渴望新工具并对变革持开放态度。

That tends to be kind of your cutting edge 5% of talent that just wants new tools and they have a bias for change.

但绝大多数人需要变革管理来推动改变，这就要求我们更深入地思考文化层面的因素，这对我来说是最重要的事情。

But the vast majority needs to work for change management in how they do it, and that requires being a lot more thoughtful about the cultural aspect of it, which is by far for me the biggest and most important thing to do.

是的。

Yeah.

我想在那里花些时间。

I wanna spend time there.

这很有道理，人们不在这里花时间是因为他们有太多事情要做。

And it's very like, it makes a lot of sense why people don't spend time here because they have so much to do.

他们得交付产品。

They gotta ship things.

他们的日程已经排得很满了。

They got their days are already busy.

你现在必须专门抽出时间来学习这个新工具，而短期内还看不到回报。

You have to now carve out time to learn this new tool that'll not pay off for a while.

所以我理解为什么人们会说：好吧，我会去学的，总有一天会用上的。

So I get why people are like, okay, I'll get there, I'll use it someday.

但你知道，他们其实不会。

But you know, they don't.

这种文化理念，当我最初看到你分享这个观点时，这就是实现成功的第三个关键要素。

This idea of culture, this is when I saw you kind of share this initially, this is the third piece of making this successful.

首先是要搭建好代码平台，让人工智能能够顺利运作。

So there's like the platform of getting the code base ready for people for AI to work with.

其次是工具层面，比如你提到的那些智能体。

Then there's the tool, like the agents you've talked about.

最后就是文化因素。

And then there's the culture.

关于如何推动人们真正参与进来，你还能分享些实际有效的经验吗？

Is there more there that you can share of just like what has actually worked in helping get people on board?

我听说有个方法是制造些FOMO（错失恐惧），比如...

One thing I heard is, like, creating a little bit of FOMO of, okay.

只有少数人能使用这个功能，需要报名才能获得权限。

Only a few people can use this, and you have to sign up to to get access.

在推动人们参与方面，什么方法最有效？

What's worked in getting people to get on board?

是。

Yeah.

我认为这里需要向人们强调，仅仅完成平台和工具的建设是远远不够的。

I I think this is where I emphasize to people that getting everything done, the platforms, the tools is not going to be sufficient.

这是实现目标的前提条件，但仅靠这些还不足以保证成功。

It's a prerequisite for this to work, but not sufficient for this to work.

因为这确实需要你们在文化层面大量投入，思考如何让人们真正接受并投入其中。

Because it really requires you to invest a lot in the cultural aspects of how do you get people to lean into this one.

起初这个过程可能显得缓慢，但我在我们从桌面端转向移动端的思维转型中就见证过类似情况。

And this one might feel slow at first, but I've seen this before with our transformation of thinking from desktop to mobile.

一旦启动起来，它实际上能保持非常高的速度。

And and once it picks up, it actually maintains very high velocity.

首先，人们会因为你如何定义对他们的期望而受到激励。

One, you know, people are really incentivized by how you define expectations for them.

所以要考虑在这个角色上的人应该有什么样的期望。

So to think about what is the expectation of somebody in the role.

所以是要改变绩效评估这类事情吗？

Are So changing performance review sort of things.

确实如此。

Very much so.

所以从招聘到校准和评估的各个环节。

So everything from how you hire to calibration and evaluation.

我希望能尽早看到这种AI代理能力和熟练度。

And one thing I wanna see there early is this kind of AI agency and fluency.

就像我提到的，工具已经到位。

Like I mentioned, the tools are there.

问题是，你会使用它们吗？

The question is, would you use them?

因为这些工具一开始会足够好，但还不够出色。

Because the tools will be good enough, but not great at the beginning.

对吧？

Right?

这就是每个优秀MVP工具的经典特征。

That's the classic thing of every good MVP tool.

它们足够好，但还不够出色。

They're good enough, but they're not great.

然后你会想要建立那种能动性来让工具变得更好。

And then you kinda wanna build that agency to make the tool better.

就像，我们秉持着这种理念：我们要共同为LinkedIn改进这个。

Like, we're in this kind of notion of we're gonna make this better for LinkedIn together.

第二是在组织内部试点成功。

Two is piloting success inside of your organization.

这就是所谓的'小组模式'，你不仅证明了这能行，而且实际上已经取得了成功。

That's the pod model where you're showing that, you know, not only this could work, it's actually having success.

所以我们甚至让合作伙伴团队、业务拓展团队能够主动行动，而不是依赖等待工程师帮忙构建开发者门户和连接器。

So we have even our partnerships team, our BD team, being able to kind of go instead of, like, relying on waiting for an engineer to help build the developer portal and build kind of the connectors there.

说真的，我们的合作伙伴负责人之一亲自去完成了这件事。

Literally, the you know, one of our head of partnerships just went and did it himself.

甚至都没有委派给他的团队。

Didn't even delegate to his team.

他们的目标是说，嘿。

And their goal is to say, hey.

我能做到。

I can do it.

你也能做到。

You can do it as well.

这些例子真的非常非常有说服力。

Those examples are really, really powerful.

我甚至提到了助理产品构建师项目，我们将非常专注于培训。

I even talked about the associate product builder program where we are going to be very focused on training.

我认为这将在整个组织内传递一个非常强烈的信号。

I think that will send a really strong message across the organization.

人们会看到这些人才及其能力，我认为这将推动变革。

People will see this talent and what they can do, and I think that will create that movement.

但要在全员大会上庆祝胜利，突出个人表现，并展示这些案例。

But celebrating wins in all hands, highlighting people, and showing those examples.

我们最近看到的一个例子，人们最初是以惊讶的眼光看待它，但后来我认为这确实为他们打开了一个新的视角。

One example we've seen recently, people really looked at it in a surprise lens, but then it kind of, I think, really opened up a lens for them.

我们用户研究团队中有一个人。

We had somebody in our user research team.

我们在增长团队有一个产品经理的职位空缺，这个职位已经开放了一段时间。

We had an opening for a PM on the growth team, and and we kind of that role was open for a while.

她说，我觉得我能胜任。

And she said, I feel I can do it.

她运用了所有这些工具。

And she used all these tools.

这是一位用户研究员转型为增长产品经理的故事，虽然这不是常见的职业路径，但她对这个领域充满热情。

This is a user researcher becoming a growth PM, not usually the career path you see, but she was excited about the area.

她运用了所有这些工具，现在已成为团队中的增长产品经理。

She used all those tools, and she's now a growth PM on the team.

所以，实际上你可以开始把她视为一个全栈构建者。

So and and, really, you can start thinking about her more as a full stack builder ultimately.

但看到这些职位空缺并主动向人们推荐，实际上，这样做的人已经成为了很好的范例。

But seeing those openings and then highlighting those to people, actually, people are doing this have been a great example of it.

然后确保这些工具易于使用，人们能够提供反馈，你们大量分享经验，这已成为其中非常关键的部分。

And then just making sure that those tools are accessible, people can provide feedback, you share a lot, has been an incredible part of this.

仅靠自上而下的指令说'这就是我们想要的工作方式'是远远不够的。

It's not enough to be top down directive that this is how we wanna work.

人们希望看到成功案例的存在。

People wanna feel like there are success stories.

他们觉得这是值得花时间的。

They feel like it's worth their time.

他们感觉这是一场他们想要参与的运动，最终能看到自己如何取得成功。

It feels it's a movement they wanna be part of, and then ultimately, they can see successes in how they do it.

我很喜欢这种与移动化转型的类比。

I love this kind of comparison to the shift to mobile.

感觉我们都经历过那个阶段，当时有很多公司都要求你展示移动端设计稿的故事。

That seems like we all went through that, and there's all these stories of companies requiring you to show mobile mocks.

这就像我们现在唯一的工作方式。

That's like the only way we're gonna operate now.

所有要发布的内容都必须适配移动端。

Everything you have to ship has to be on mobile.

有趣的是，这与他们当时的经历何其相似。

And it's interesting how similar this is to them, to that experience.

那么总结一下你刚才分享的几个有效策略：

And so a few things you just shared here just to kind of summarize some of the things that have worked for you.

展示成功案例、庆祝胜利、让人们看到其他人如何运用AI工具、创建一个需要报名参加的专属项目。

Showing wins, celebrating wins, showing people what other folks are doing with AI tools, creating a program that people enroll into and make it a little bit exclusive.

绩效评估这部分非常有意思，因为'这就是我们获得晋升的方式'确实会改变人们的行为。

This performance review piece is really interesting because that really will change people's behavior as here's how we get promoted.

你们是否已经对产品经理岗位做出了这项调整？

Have you actually already made that change to the PM?

我猜应该是所有岗位而不仅是产品管理吧。

I guess it's every track I imagine, not just product management.

你们已经完成这个变革了，还是说目前仍在推进中？

Have you already made that change or is it kind of like a work in progress?

这里其实包含两个层面。

So there was two aspects to it.

当我调动团队后，我的直属下属会为他们做360度评估。

Once I moved kind of my team, my directs, would do three sixty for them.

他们的360度评估是这样的：如果你是产品经理，就需要让团队中的设计师为你撰写评价。

So their three sixty was, if you came from PM, you had the designers on your team write you.

这种方式本身就具有激励作用，之后我们会把这些评估结果分享给他们。后来我们又把这个方法推广到了全公司。

So that kind of that was that had its own and then we shared those with them and that had its own kind of motivation, but then we broadly took it across.

所以现在招聘时，我们就会特别关注这些特质。

So when we hire right now, we look for those.

接下来这个评估周期，我们会实行半年制。

And then this upcoming cycle, we do a biannual.

这将作为绩效考核的一部分，我们会向全员公布这个决定。

It's that's gonna be part of the performance evaluation piece, and we announce it to everybody.

而且对于这个，人们总是很兴奋能展示出来。

And for what, it's where people are excited to show.

而且他们也很想知道自己会如何被评价，这总是关乎——我就想知道我的评级或价值如何。

And and they're excited to know how they're gonna be it's always about, like, I just I wanna know how I'm being rated or valued.

所以能够展示这些例子已经成为其中很重要的一部分。

So just being able to show those examples has been a big part of it.

另外我想说的是，这种正式项目要在整个组织中全面推行需要时间。

The other thing I would say, like, it takes time for this program in its formality to roll out across the entire organization.

而我——我是有意不急于向所有人推广的，因为我觉得那样会很快稀释它的价值，因为这无关紧要——我根本不在乎你的头衔，我在乎的是你的工作方式。

And I was I was intentionally not trying to be quick at rolling this out to everybody, because I think that just dilutes the value of it really quickly, because it's not about, I could care less about your title, I care about how you work.

所以把你称为全栈构建者并不是我想要的。

So calling you a full stack builder is not what I'm looking for.

将你的思维转变为全栈思维才是我所追求的。

Changing your mindset to a full stack mindset is what I'm looking for.

你要想着自己能完成整个流程。

You're thinking you can do the whole thing.

你正在研究那些工具，学习如何使用它们。

You're looking at those tools and looking at how to do it.

所以我常说，如果你在等待正式重组或官方声明才开始以不同方式构建，那你就等太久了。

So one of the things I've said is, like, if you're looking for a formal reorg or declaration to start building differently, you're waiting too long.

听着，我最重要的一点是：这给了我无需等待、直接行动的权利。

Like, look, my biggest thing is here's a permission for me to just not wait and just go.

所以无论你是否拥有合适的工具，去打造工具，使用外部工具，引进它，展示这些范例。

So whether or not you have the right tools or not, go build the tool, use a tool from the outside, bring it in, show those examples.

从很多方面来说，首先要证明你具备全栈构建者的思维模式。

In many ways, prove that you are a full stack builder in mindset before anything else come to mind.

这自然会水到渠成，我们也正是在这里看到最优秀的人才全力以赴。

That just naturally will happen, and that's also where we've seen some of our best talent just goes and leans a lot into.

我非常赞同这一点。

I love that.

我正想引用这句话呢。

I was gonna actually mention that quote.

你曾合作过的同事向我转述过你刚才说的那句话，我很高兴你提到这一点——如果你在等待重组，那你的思路就不对。

Someone you shared you worked with told me exactly that quote you just shared, so I'm glad you brought it up of just if you're waiting for a reorg, you're not thinking about it the right way.

你如何鼓励人们真正自己去尝试这些工具？

How do you encourage people to actually play with these tools on their own?

你是直接说'花几天时间玩玩AI'这样吗？

Are you just like, go take a few days to play with AI?

就是单纯让他们试试看？

Is it just try it?

或者你有没有见过什么正式方法，能让人们不参加这个项目就自主尝试？

Or is there anything formal you've seen of just like getting people to more try this on their own without joining this program?

我们制作的许多工具都会定期分享给大家。

A lot of the tools we've made, we've been sharing them regularly.

我开的几次全员会议都在讲解如何使用这些工具。

We've done all like, a few of my all hands have been all about how to use those tools.

但同时我们也在邀请大家：你有没有发现什么特别好用的新工具？

But then at the same time, we're kind of inviting, have you found a new tool that works really well for you?

比如，分享出来展示给大家看。

Like, share it and show it.

同样，可以通过Slack、消息、Teams等方式来实现。

Again, it could be Slack, could be messages, Teams, and so on how you do it.

但核心思想是真正开始让大家理解事物运作的原理。

But, like, the idea is really to start getting that investment in how things work.

说实话，我觉得现在人们很容易被各种工具、方法和操作流程搞得不知所措。

Actually, I think in general, you can feel overwhelmed by tools right now, by recipes and how to do things.

就像，你知道的，你的提示词和我的提示词有什么区别？

Like, you know, what's what's your prompt and what's my prompt?

但关键在于找到真正适合你的东西，然后围绕它深入钻研，在这些领域持续投入。

But, really, it's finding something that kind of works really well that you can gravitate around and kind of reinvest in that's been those areas.

不过我认为我们已经发出了探索的邀请，鼓励大家带来自己觉得很棒的东西。

But I think we we've had this invitation to go and explore and and go and bring in stuff that you think are great.

而且在很多方面，就像，你知道的，要带动其他人一起参与这个过程。

And in many ways, like, you know, bring others along in the journey.

这是将影响力扩大到远超少数在这方面表现优异者的一个有效方式。

It's it's one of one good way to kind of make the influence much bigger than a few folks who are doing really well with this.

在负面方面，PRD过程中是否出现过什么意外情况？比如感觉AI驱动反而导致人们效率意外降低？

Are there any surprises on the negative side that have come out of this of PRD is just feeling like AI driven, people slowing down unexpectedly?

有什么让你感到惊讶的事情吗？就是那种让你觉得'好吧...'的情况？

Is there anything that surprised you of just like, okay.

这其实并不理想。

This is actually not great.

是的。

Yeah.

我们刚才已经提到了一些。

We mentioned a few of them.

比如，我原本期望有些工具能开箱即用。

Like, we I was hoping for some tools to work off the shelf really well.

但实际情况从来不是这样，因为我们不得不投入相当多的...

It was never the case because we had to invest quite

很多。

a lot.

从未如此。

Never the case.

从未如此。

Never the case.

我们不得不投入相当多。

We had to invest quite a lot.

再次强调，部分原因是我们拥有大量遗留信息、代码库、知识、设计等等。

Again, part of it is we just have a lot of legacy information and code base and knowledge and designs and so on.

所以要知道，与我们合作的许多公司也将此视为他们投资的重要增长机遇，但我确实认为这也是一个需要大量投入的领域。

So if you know, a lot of the companies we work with are seeing this as a great growth opportunity for them as well to invest, but I do think it's it's a big area of investment as well.

我们讨论过不能像最初那样开放所有上下文访问权限。

We talked about not just giving access to all of our context which we started with.

当时我们还觉得，'哦，开放所有云端硬盘和全部信息访问权限没问题'。

And, like, we were like, oh, here's access to all the drive, all information.

惨败得一塌糊涂，幻觉频出。

Failed miserably and hallucinates like crazy.

人们倾向于使用不同的工具。

People gravitate towards different tools.

我们的目标是统一工具，但这相当困难。

Like, our goal was to converge on tools, but that was pretty hard.

在质量方面，我们已经看到了更好的表现，但我想这是因为我们仍处于早期采用者阶段，他们还在进行几轮迭代来探索最佳实践。

And then I think in terms of in terms of quality, we've just seen better quality, but I think it's because, again, where we are in the stage is still the early adopters, and they're doing a few iterations in terms of how to do it.

但我要说，工具的采用确实很困难。

But I would say, like, the tooling adoption is hard.

我认为有必要说明这一点：有些人不想成为全栈开发者，这完全没问题。

And then I think for some people, this is important for me to kind of state, some people do not wanna be full stack builders, and that's completely okay.

有些人更倾向于专业化，我认为专业化有其存在价值和作用。

Some people see themselves in specialization, and I think specialization has a place and a role.

所以我不希望这个信息在整个组织内传播。

So I don't I didn't want the message to be across the organization.

我并不期望每个人都成为全栈构建者。

I expect everybody to be a full stack builder.

我没有这个期望。

I do not.

我认为有系统构建者赋能全栈构建者，也有专业人才，但我们不再需要过去那么多的专业人才了。

I think there are system builders that empower full stack builders, and then you have people who are specialized, but I don't think we need as many specialized people as we did in the past.

我直到现在才意识到这一点。

I didn't actually realize this until just now.

所以现在他们的头衔从产品经理工程师变成了全栈构建者吗？

Is is this like their title now instead of product manager engineer, they're full stack builder?

我们在组织内部正式设立了全栈构建者头衔，正在逐步安排人员转型。

We have a full stack builder title formally inside of the organization, we are gradually putting people So in that

整个职业晋升体系正在形成，好吧。

there's a whole career ladder that's forming, there's a whole Okay.

这比我想象的还要重要。

That's a bigger deal than I even thought.

那么你主要从哪里找到这些人？

So where are you finding these folks mostly coming from?

比如产品工程设计领域？

Like, product engineering design?

我猜是混合来源，但有没有一个最常见的趋势？

I imagine it's a mix, but just is there a kinda most common trend?

是混合的。

It's a mix.

我想对听众说的是，建议你们审视自己的组织，想想谁能胜任。

We I would just kind of people listening, I would just think about, like, just go over your org and imagine who can do it.

看看现在谁能跨职能工作，无论是工程、设计、产品，甚至业务拓展。

Who can right now flex across those functions, whether it's engineering, design, product, even BD.

你会发现已经有不少人能胜任这种跨职能工作。

And what you'll find is there's already quite a few it can fix across.

有意思。

Interesting.

你认为有哪些职能在这方面特别成功？

Are there any functions you think are especially successful at this?

不是要偏袒谁，但我不知道。

Not to play any favorites, but I don't know.

你有没有发现，比如，好吧。

Are you finding, like, okay.

或者你也可以不特别强调某个职能。

Or you could also not highlight any specific.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这更像是一种思维方式的问题。

I I think it's, like, I think it's a mental model of how you do it.

如果要我说哪个领域最难掌握，我认为设计工作需要更多努力才能让设计人员变得非常出色。

I think, you know, if I were to play, like, what's the hardest craft to potentially learn, I think design has a lot more work to get the design agents to be really, really good.

所以我认为设计师在跨职能学习方面会稍微有些优势，反之亦然。

So I think designers have a little bit of a leg up in terms of others learning their craft and then the vice vice versa.

但我真心认为这是一种思维方式。

But I honestly think it's a mindset.

我见过设计师写代码。

I've seen I've seen designers code.

我也见过产品经理涉足设计并做得不错。

I've seen PMs kind of design and do well.

这就是为什么我认为，当你退一步观察组织中的人员时，你会发现那些能灵活适应的人往往能在多个领域崭露头角。

And is why I think, like, when you kind of step back and you think about people in your organization and who can flex, I think you'll see them show up in many areas.

我认为你会发现这些人都有主观能动性。

And what I think you'll find there is they have the agency.

他们积极尝试新事物，具备适应能力——已经在创造新体验，并保持着'只想不断进步'的成长型思维。

They're leaning into new things, they have the fluency, like they're already building new experiences and they have that growth mindset that they just want to get better.

所以他们学校学什么专业，或者入职时被贴上什么标签都不重要。

So it doesn't matter what they learn at school or what label somebody put on them when they join the company.

我最欣赏的是——现在绝对是不同产品角色之间转换最便捷的时代。

What I love about a lot of this is this is the it's the easiest time to transition between different product roles than it's ever been.

设计师转型为产品经理或直接转向这个新角色。

Designs moving to PM and or just moving to this new role.

就像你说的那样，这让事情变得容易多了，那位研究员后来成为了增长产品经理。

It's like it makes it so much easier to like you said, that researcher became a growth PM.

这可能是我给团队最重要的建议/动力，因为我告诉他们，归根结底——顺便说，这也是对我自己的要求。

And this is probably my biggest advice slash motivation I give to the team because what I tell them is ultimately by the way, this is for me as well.

我自己也是这么想的。

Like, I think about it the same way.

这对你的激励与组织对我们的要求是完全一致的。

It's the it's the the incentives for you are so aligned with the organization of what we're asking for.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们需要你做出改变。

Because this is we we need you to change.

我们希望成为一个更敏捷、适应力更强、更具韧性的组织，能够应对变化的节奏，而你也同样希望为自己的职业生涯谋求发展。

We wanna be a more agile, adaptive, resilient organization that can deal with the pace of change, but you want as well for your own career.

你想要站在建设方法的最前沿。

You wanna be at the cutting edge of how you build.

所以个人职业发展所需与组织对你的需求之间确实存在高度一致性。

So the incentives are really aligned between what you need for your own career and what the organization needs you to to do.

因此对我来说，这种放手去做的许可更像是一种助力，比其他任何东西更能推动他们想做的事。

So there's that that permission to go and do it for me is ideally kind of a tailwind in what they wanna do more than anything else.

也许最后一个问题，对于那些受到启发并认为'这就是我们需要做的'的人。

Maybe a last question for people that are inspired and like, okay, this is what we need to be doing.

对于刚开始踏上这条路的人，有什么成功尝试类似事情的建议吗？

Any just tips for someone starting down this road to be successful at trying something like this at their

我想说，我会从...我会从'你希望如何引入这种结构'的概念开始。

I would say, like, I would start with the I would start with the notion of, like, how do you wanna bring like, this is structure.

我会考虑需要构建的平台、想要引入的工具，然后花大量时间在文化建设上。

I would think about the the platform you need to build, the tools you wanna bring, and then I would spend a lot of time on the culture.

平台和工具我认为是必要前提，但还不够充分，文化方面才是真正重要的。

Platform and tools, I think, would be, again, a prerequisite, but not sufficient, and the culture aspect is really important.

我会深入思考如何带动团队一起前进。

I would think a lot about how you bring people along.

我们获得的一个经验教训是——如果现在要重做这个项目，我会采取不同的方式：有段时间我只和核心团队紧密合作，这个全栈开发团队负责构建所有材料。

So for for one of the learnings we had that probably I will do differently right now if I were to redo this program was for a while, I was working very closely with my core team on it, the core kind of full stack building team that were in charge of building all this material.

但组织其他成员一直在问：进展如何？

But the organization was always asking questions, what's going on?

是谁在负责？

Who is doing it?

用了哪些工具？

What are the tools?

现在回想起来，我们本可以在推进过程中做更多工作，比如及时展示成果、让他们提前使用早期工具或了解进展，而不是只让一个小团队单独运作。

And in in retrospect, we could have done a lot more in the flow to just show them and get them to already use early tools or be aware of it versus doing a small team on the side.

所以从小团队开始是可以的。

So it's okay to start with a small team.

我认为这非常重要。

I think it's really important.

但同时，确保整个过程具有透明度是非常有力的做法。

But at the same time, just making sure there's, like, visibility across the whole thing is really powerful.

保持耐心并愿意投入。

Being patient and being willing to invest.

我经常举这个例子：我们总说'看这家初创公司'。

I always give this example of like, we always give this example of like, oh, look at this startup.

他们一周内就搭建了这个。

They built this in a week.

是的，现在如果你从零开始，一周内创建一家初创公司其实并不难。

Yes, you can build a startup in a week right now if you start from scratch, it's actually not hard.

但当你试图改造大型组织时，要对目标保持急迫感并怀有远大抱负，但对实施方式和关键投入领域要保持深思熟虑和耐心。

But when you are trying to transform a large organization, you wanna have this impatient about the goal and you have a high ambition, but being very thoughtful and patient about how you bring it to life and the key things you have to invest in.

如果不投资建设自己的平台，我实在看不出这怎么能成功。

If you don't invest in your platform, I just don't see how this could be a successful outcome.

如果不投资定制专属工具，最终只能获得外部提供的通用方案。

If you don't invest in customizing the tools for you, then you're just gonna get vanilla generic agents from the outside.

因此要意识到投资的重要性，并确保你确实为此分配了资源。

So being aware of the investment and making sure you actually allocate resource to it.

这有点像经典的先期投资理念——先投入才能后期收获，而不是一味追问。

This is kind of the classic be willing to invest upfront so you can reap the benefit after versus saying, hey.

你知道，为什么我没看到我们在一周内实现双倍生产力？

You know, why am I not seeing us moving into two x the productivity in a week?

事情不会这样发展的。

That's not going to be this way.

你可以在某些人身上看到成效，但开始收集这些案例并真正思考转型才是关键。

You can see it with some people, but starting to collect those examples and starting to really think about the transformation is really key.

这简直太棒了。

This is so incredibly cool.

我知道很多首席产品官、产品负责人和各种领导者都在联系你，试图了解你的经验教训和具体做法。

I know that a lot of CPOs and heads of product and all kinds of leaders are reaching out to you trying to figure out what you've learned, how to do this.

所以我很高兴我们能深入探讨所有这些话题。

So I love that we went deep on all these things.

最后一个问题，在我们进入激动人心的闪电问答环节之前，还有什么我们没分享但对听众有帮助的内容？或者有什么需要特别强调的吗？

Just final question, is there anything else that we haven't shared that you think might be helpful for listeners to hear or maybe just to double down on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

无论你身处组织之中，等待领导推行这项变革，还是作为领导者正试图推行——我都建议你不要等待。

Whether you're in an organization, you're waiting for your leader to roll this out or you're a leader trying to roll this out, I would not wait.

回顾起来，我做的第一件事其实很有前瞻性——我确实提前公开宣布了这件事。

Like, the the first thing I've done, which I thought in retrospect was really hopeful is I did not I did announce this upfront.

我们正在经历这种模式。

We are going through this mode.

我们正从局部开始推进。

Like, we're starting in pockets.

我们正以小团队为单位启动。

We're starting in pods.

我们正在构建工具，但目标很明确——这就是我们要攀登的高峰。

We're building the tools, but we're going, this is this is the mountain we're going to go after.

而且在很多方面，我们都会做到极致。

And in many ways, we're gonna make it great.

我还明确表示这不仅仅是一个最终状态。

I also announced that this is not just an end state.

它是一种持续进步的过程。

It's a kind of continuous progress.

我们不会达到某个固定状态，而是要不断追求变得更好。

There's no state we're gonna get to as much as continuously just trying to be better.

从很多方面来说，要想竞争获胜，你只需要在建设方式上比别人做得更好——因为每隔几年，建设模式本身就会发生翻天覆地的变化。

And in many ways, to compete, you just wanna be better than others in how you build because the the for the version of building will look completely just for itself every few years or so.

所以不要等待。

So do not wait.

真正专注于你正在取得的进展。

Really focus on the progress you're making.

与团队保持充分沟通，不仅要传达愿景，还要分享取得的进展，这就像是在让自己承担责任。

Over communicate with your team, not just the vision, but also the progress you're making, almost like holding yourself responsible.

你可以给自己设定一些与团队共享的KPI或OKR目标。

If you'll either give yourself KPIs you share with your own teams or OKRs.

如果你在组织内部，我想说无论你的首席产品官或首席执行官是否宣布这类计划，都要去实施或加入一个这样做的组织，这样你才能站在未来建设方式的最前沿。

And if you're inside of the organization, and I would say whether or not your CPO or your CEO is announcing this type of program, go do it or join an organization that does it so you can be at the cutting edge of of how you build in the future.

Tomer，说到这里，我们已经来到了非常激动人心的闪电问答环节。

Tomer, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我有五个问题要问你。

I've got five questions for you.

准备好了吗？

Are you ready?

我准备好了。

I'm ready.

第一个问题。

First question.

你最常向他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

What are two or three books you find yourself recommending most to other people?

我喜欢推荐我真正喜欢的三部曲书籍。

I love to give trios of books that I really like.

我当前推荐的三本书主题非常多元。

So my current trio is they're very diverse in topics.

如果这些书不完全属于同一类别，还请见谅。

So apologies if it's not falling all into tack.

第一本叫做《国家为什么会失败》。

But the first one is called why nations fail.

这本书我十几年前就读过，其作者去年刚获得了诺贝尔奖。

It's a book I read a decade ago, even more, and the offers of it just won the Nobel Prize last year.

它主要探讨为何有些国家成功而有些失败。

And it basically talks about why does some nations succeed and some fail?

书中给出的并非我们常说的那些解释，比如'是文化差异'。

And it's not the usual explanations we go for, which is, oh, it's culture.

也不是'自然资源多寡'。

It's natural resources.

更不是'宗教信仰类型'。

It's the it's the kind of religion.

你知道，很多这类解释往往都是

This is gonna you know, a lot of those kind of tend to be the

那种

kind of

人们常用的即时借口。

immediate excuse that people have.

它大致可以分为两类。

It kind of falls into two camps.

它们是榨取性还是包容性制度？

Are they extractive or inclusive institutions?

人们能否广泛参与并共享机会，还是存在本质上旨在从多数人汲取资源而惠及少数人的制度？

Can people participate broadly and opportunity is shared, or there are institutions that basically are supposed to be attracting from many and give to some?

这真是个思考国家建设方式的绝妙角度。

So it's just an incredible way to just think about how you build a nation.

对我们LinkedIn而言，我们经常思考机会这个概念，以及如何打造产品。

And for us at LinkedIn, we think a lot about the idea of opportunities, so how you build a product as well.

这确实是一个很好的方式，让我们从简单的解释转向思考什么真正让一个国家成功。

And it's just a good way to kind of move away from easy explanations into, like, what really makes a country really successful as well.

第二本书叫《Outlive》。

Second book, it's called Outlive.

它主要探讨的是作者Peter Arthea提出的'三O医学'理念，即构建个性化医疗的概念，我认为在AI时代这将变得非常重要。

It's really about kind of the idea it's kind of like, you know, the author Peter Arthea talks about the idea of medicine three o, which is really the notion of building personalized medicine, which I think in the world of AI will become incredible in the future.

书中列出了你应该为人生考虑的所有健康类别，从健身到饮食再到最重要的健康因素，帮助你尽可能优化健康状态，这是一本很棒的长篇著作。

But it's all those it's called those categories that you should think about for your life so you can just optimize your health as much as possible and goes for everything through, you know, fitness to diet to kind of the biggest health factors you should think about, but it's a it's a great long book.

最后

And then lastly

在我身后的书架上。

in my bookshelf behind me.

就在那儿。

There you go.

在最上面。

It's up top.

你应该能看见它，我想。

You can actually see it, I think.

最后还有一本多年前出版的书，叫《无穷的开始》，作者是多伊奇，我非常喜欢。虽然对我来说读起来并不轻松，但我很喜欢其中的理念。

And then lastly, it's a book that also came out many years ago, but it's called the beginning of infinity, which I really like by Deutsch, and it's it's it's just wasn't an easy read for easy read for me, but I love the idea.

实际上，特别是在产品领域，我特别喜欢因果关系的理念——真正找到事物发生的合理解释，然后在此基础上进行下一次迭代。

In fact, especially in products, love the idea of cause and effect, like really finding great explanations for how things happen and then building on top of that your next iterations.

这本书真正推崇的是解释的理念：只有当我们清楚理解事物发生的原理后，才能在此基础上取得突破。

And this book really pushes on the idea of explanations That only once we have a clear understanding of what things happened, then we could have breakthroughs on top of that.

但除非我们达到明确的科学突破点，否则我们无法取得重大进展。

But until we get to a point of clear scientific breakthroughs, we are not going to make significant progress.

而一旦实现突破，几乎就能在此基础上取得无限的进步。

But when you do that, it's really almost like infinite progress you can make on top of that.

纳瓦尔经常提到最后那本书。

Naval's always talking about that last book.

我想我买了它，只是...

I think I bought it, and I just

它就是

it was it

只是

was just

一本难读的书。

a hard read.

至少对我来说很难读。

Read, at least for me.

不是一本容易读的书，但内容非常深刻。

Wasn't an easy read, but it's a very powerful read.

太棒了。

Awesome.

你最近有特别喜欢看的电影或电视剧吗？

Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

我能推荐一个播客吗？

Can I do a podcast?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

有一个播客是用希伯来语做的。

So there's a podcast in it's in Hebrew.

它叫《一首歌》，会挑选一首通常很受欢迎的歌曲，然后深入探讨这首歌的起源和历史，我非常喜欢。

It's called One Song, and it takes a song that, you know, generally is ideally popular, and then it goes really deep on the origin and the history of the song, and I love it.

我就是热爱音乐，这个节目把歌曲剖析得特别好。

I just I love music and just dissects songs so well.

它在生动展现歌曲背后的故事方面也做得非常出色。

It does a great job also in kind of bringing to life the story behind it.

对我来说，它让我重新认识歌曲——你以为这首歌是关于某个主题，但它会深入挖掘歌曲背后的创作故事。

So for me, it just goes back to, like, you thought the song was about something, but then it goes really deep into the actors behind the song.

有时是歌词的选择，有时是歌词如何与旋律本身相匹配。

And sometimes it's the words chosen or it's the how the lyrics match the the music itself.

我真的很喜欢这个节目。

And I just really enjoy that one.

有个播客叫《歌曲拆解》，我想应该是类似的概念，不过是英文版的，我会推荐给喜欢这类内容的人。

There's a podcast podcast called Song Exploder, I believe, that is a similar concept that's not in Hebrew in English, that I'll point people to, if you love that one.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的产品？

Is there a product you've recently discovered that you really love?

可以是个应用。

Could be an app.

可以是件衣服。

Could be some clothing.

可以是厨房小工具或科技产品。

Could be a kitchen gadget, tech gadget.

可以是我想拥有的产品吗？我觉得这其实很容易实现。

Can it be a product I want to have, which I think is actually really easy to do?

我喜欢这个提议。

I love that.