#260 – 乔治·圣皮埃尔、约翰·达纳赫与戈登·莱恩：史上最伟大

对。

Yeah.

就连爱我的人以前也怀疑过我。

Even people that love me used to doubt me.

我觉得你需要把那些怀疑当作积极的东西，当作动力，对。

And I believe I I you need to use that as a positive positive thing as a motivation Yeah.

证明他们是错的。

To prove them wrong.

对。

Yeah.

所以对我来说，那就是我的动力。

So for me, that that was a thing.

当有人怀疑我的时候，没有什么比这更能给我能量了，因为我想证明他们是错的。

When someone doubt me, nothing gave me more this more energy because I want to prove him wrong.

我想看着他们的脸说，嘿。

I want to look at him in the face and say, hey.

看到了吧？

You see?

我搞定你了，兄弟。

I got you, man.

我做到了。

I I did it.

那么，约翰，你有没有用过这种方式，比如说“别以为你能做到”来激励他们，让他们证明你错了，或者更普遍的问题是，你知道，实现伟大所需的心理韧性或自信。

So, John, do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying, don't think you can do this to motivate them to prove to prove you wrong or more general question of, you know, the the mental toughness required to achieve or confidence required to achieve greatness.

比如，你作为教练的角色是什么，

Like, what's your role as

当你面对这两个运动员的时候？

a coach when you have these two athletes?

关于你的第一个问题，我会不会对某人说“你做不到”，作为一种逆向心理？

With regards to your your first question, would I ever say to someone, you can't do this, as a kind of reverse psychology?

不会。

No.

我的工作首先是帮人们准备好技能。

My job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills.

而且，正如戈登之前指出的，如果你是个理性的人，并且注意到你在健身房用某个动作对高水平对手取得了巨大成功，而这些对手能很好地反映出你实际比赛对手的情况，那你如果不是傻瓜，就不会忽视这种成功，并且会说，这是我应该融入我比赛中的东西，你会把在健身房赢得的信心带进赛场。

And, as Gordon pointed out earlier, if you're in any way a rational human being and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success with a given move in the gym against high level opponents who give a good read on what your actual opponent in a competition is is like, you would have to be a moron to not recognize that kind of success and say, this is something I should be building into my game, and you will carry the confidence that you earned in the gym into the arena.

所以我从不尝试使用逆向心理。

So I never try to use reverse psychology.

我所做的一切，在信心方面，都是建立在给人们身体技能之上的。

I build up everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills.

我知道人们说，一方面有身体，另一方面有心理，而信心完全属于比赛的心理层面。

I know people say, oh, there's physicality on the one hand, there's mentality on the other, and confidence is squarely in the the mental aspect of the game.

但信心的所有基础和起点都是身体上的。

But all the underpinnings and beginnings of confidence are physical.

对吧？

Okay?

一个理性的人会看到自己在哪里成功，在哪里失败。

A rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure.

信心会围绕那些他们成功的领域，而在失败的领域则会消退。

And confidence will surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're they're having failure.

所以作为教练，我的工作就是让他们在训练中通过特定的技能获得成功。

So my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills.

之后我就不需要再做任何心理上的工作了。

And I don't have to do anything psychologically after that.

只要我能让你在训练中，对某个动作或一套战术，连续十次对抗高水平对手都取得巨大成功，那么在灌输信心方面，我根本不用做任何事。

I just if if I can set you up to be highly successful with a given move or a set of tactics 10 times in a row against quality opposition in the gym, I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence.

我会告诉人们，嘿，你那个动作做得非常好，对你很有效。

I I I will tell people, hey, you're doing a really good job with that move, it's working well for you.

但即使他们点头同意，我也不是要强加什么，他们早就意识到了，远在我开口之前就已经知道了。

But when they nod in agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them, they're recognized they already recognized that long before the words came out of my mouth.

但另一方面，聪明理性的人会意识到自己在某些动作上的失败，无论我说多少话都无法改变这一点。

But on the other hand, intelligent, rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves, and no amount of talk on my part can ever change that.

如果我教戈登一个特定的手臂锁，他在一个月内尝试了十五次，但十五次都失败了，那么我无论说什么都无法改变，比如走上前说，嘿，你那个动作真的很擅长。

If I teach Gordon a given arm lock, and 15 times in a row he tries it over a month, and all 15 are failures, there's nothing I can say verbally to come up to Gordon and say, hey, you're really good at that move.

他会看着我说，胡说八道。

He's gonna look at me and say, bullshit.

我做得太差了。

I'm terrible at it.

那会造成信心危机，戈登就不再相信我嘴里说出来的话了。

And that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth.

所以我绝不会在这点上妥协。

So I will never compromise that.

但你刚才说了15次，这不是有个界限吗？

But isn't there a line you just said 15.

你得相信，在一个月里做15次这个手臂锁是值得的，因为最终你可能会成功。

You have to believe that doing this arm lock 15 times over a period of a month is worth it because eventually you might get it.

你知道，这是另一个问题。

Like, you know That's a separate issue.

那是另一个问题。

That that's a separate issue.

有时候我或多或少会推动运动员朝某个方向发展。

There are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction.

比如，我第一次见到加里·托宁时，他从来没有用过断头台锁。

For example, when I first met Gary Tonin, he never had a guillotine strangle.

我就跟他说，加里，你是个擅长地面缠斗的选手。

And I I would say to him, Gary, you you're you're a scrambler.

像地面缠斗选手能练出的最厉害的武器之一就是断头台。

Like, one of the greatest weapons a scrambler can ever develop is a guillotine.

这应该成为你的武器库中的一部分。

Like, it should be in your arsenal.

他当时说，不。

And he was like, no.

我只是想绕到背后去。

I just scramble for the back.

我说，总有一天你会没法绕到别人背后。

And I said, well, there's gonna be a day you can't take someone's back.

而且从前面和后面都能绞杀总是好的。

And it's always good to be able to strangle from front and back.

对吧？

Okay?

当然，我们都更喜欢从背后绞杀，这很正常，但总有一天你会用得上它的。

Of course, we all prefer strangles from the back, that makes sense, but there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you.

所以那是我少数几次坚持己见，说：你必须学这个。

And so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, you're learning this.

闭嘴。

Shut the fuck up.

然后

And

他简直就不教他别的，直到他学会断头台。

He, like, literally wouldn't teach him any anything else until he got a guillotine.

加里问他问题。

Gary, like, asked him a question.

他说，让我看看你的断头台。

He's like, let's see your guillotine.

然后

And

头三个月，尽管加里·托宁在学习大多数动作上很有天赋，大多数动作他几分钟就能学会，但不知怎么回事，加里就是没法对别人使出断头台。

for the first three months, as gifted as as Gary Tonin is in learning most moves, most moves Gary gets it like in in minutes, there was something going on where Gary just couldn't get a guillotine on people.

最后，大约三个月后，他开始有些成功了，直到最终这成了他最好的武器之一。

And finally, after around three months, he started having some success until ultimately it became one of his best weapons.

我们不得不尝试大约15种不同的断头台变体，直到他找到一种真正对他有效的。

We had to go through like 15 different variations of guillotine until he found one which actually worked reliably for him.

那是少数几次我坚持己见，说，不，你必须学会这个。

And that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, no, you you have to learn this.

所以长时间的寻找更多与身体特征有关，比如你找不到合适的……

So the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics, like you couldn't figure out the right kind of

对加里·托纳来说，这是合理的，因为在他的缠斗中，每分钟出现断头台的机会更多，所以投入时间是值得的。

It made sense in the case of Gary Toner, because there were more opportunities per minute of his grappling for guillotines that the investment in time was worth it.

换作别的运动员，我可能会说，他很少遇到这种断头台和正面锁喉的情况，所以不值得花时间训练。

For another athlete, I might have said, well, he hardly ever gets in this situation but front headlocks with guillotines, so it's

甚至不值得投入训练时间。

not even worth investing the training time.

我想问你一个关于比赛方面的问题。

Let me ask you a question on the on the competition side.

你提到了黑子，你和运动员们会考虑比赛中的这方面吗？

You mentioned haters, and do you think about this aspect of the competition with athletes?

这是个好问题，答案是：不会。

It's a great question, and the answer is no.

我是说，你

I'm you

可以看到，你找不到比乔治·圣皮埃尔和我左边这个怪物在心理上更截然不同的两个人了。

can see that you could you couldn't find two more polar opposites psychologically than than Georges St Pierre and this monstrosity on my left.

我从来没有对我的运动员说过，嘿，我觉得你应该表现出这种态度。

And I've I've never said to my athletes, hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with.

我自己就是个有很多缺点的人，我是世界上最不该给别人道德建议的人。

I'm myself a very flawed character, and I'm the last person on earth who should be delving out moral advice to other people.

唯一的是，你知道，当然，我认为有些事情是禁区，但只要是在体育的背景下，没有人进行人身攻击或做任何疯狂到完全过火的事情，那么我几乎不给我的运动员任何道德建议。

The only thing is that I I you know, of course, I believe some things are off limits, But as long as it's done in the context of sport where no one's physically attacking people or doing anything crazy where it just goes completely over the top, then I I give almost zero moral advice to my athletes.

我是个柔术教练，

I'm a jujitsu coach,

不是传教士。

not a preacher.

莱克斯，如果可以的话，我们是表演者。

Lex, I I if I can if I may, we we are entertainers.

你知道，我们是运动员。

You know, we're we're athlete.

我们是职业运动员，但我们靠人们想看我们表演来谋生。

We're professional athlete, but we make we make a living because of people are want to see us perform.

和演员一样，和歌手一样。

Same thing an actor, same thing a singer.

很多时候，尤其是在格斗比赛中，赛事是需要宣传的。

And a lot of the time, especially in the fight game, an event is promoted.

它需要带有情感色彩。

It needs to be with emotion.

爱我或者恨我，但别无视我。

Love me, hate me, but do not ignore me.

而且，你知道，当这种情感是真实的，并且处理得当的时候，我个人最喜欢的拳手是那些带有某种反派气质的人。

And, you know, it when it's authentic and and it's done well, I think me, my personally, my my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are that that that have a sort some sort of a bad persona.

我真的很喜欢看他们比赛，因为他们给比赛带来了情感元素，这很棒。

I really enjoy watching those guys because they bring an emotion element into a fight, which is great.

你知道，我觉得当比赛中有情感因素时，看起来更有意思。

You know, I I feel to me it's more interesting to watch when there is an emotion involved.

我相信这就是为什么有些拳手比其他人赚得多的原因。

And I believe that's why some fighters make more money than others.

你懂吗？

You know?

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

这就是为什么我们能靠这个谋生。

That's the reason why we may we can make a living out of this.

对。

Yeah.

他们更会娱乐大众，但你说得对。

They're better entertainers, but you're right.

真实性在那里似乎真的很重要。

The authenticity seems to be really important there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这其实很有意思。

It's actually something very interesting there.

是时候揭露一些秘密了。

It's time to break out some some secrets.

你知道，比如你想到乔治·圣皮埃尔的时候，会想到什么吗？

Do you know who like like you think of Georges St.

你会想到那种技术非常精湛、非常完美的武术家。

Peter, you think of like the highly technical polished martial artist.

哦，这

Oh, this is

肯定会很棒。

gonna be great.

你知道他最喜欢看哪些选手比赛吗？你可能会想，哦，大概是那些技术特别高超的人吧。

Do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were, you'd probably be thinking, oh, probably someone who's really technically advanced.

其实，是马克·科尔曼。哦，不会吧。

Actually, it was Mark Coleman Oh, no.

凯文·兰德尔曼，还有菲尔·巴罗尼。

Kevin Randleman, and Phil Barone.

他以前特别喜欢看锤子屋的比赛。

He used to love watching that was a Hammer House.

那是他的最爱。

That was his favorite.

他喜欢那些家伙。

He would love those guys.

每当他们的比赛播出时，乔治都会和锤子屋团队一起观看。

And whenever their fights were on, Georges would watch in the Hammer House crew.

你说得对，那些家伙给MMA带来了无与伦比的强度，这很有趣。

And it's funny what you said about how those guys bought an intensity to to MMA that was off the charts.

如果你见过他们巅峰时期的样子，我告诉你，那真是令人叹为观止。

If you ever met those guys in their prime, let me tell you, it was it was something to behold.

他们有着疯狂而夸张的个性，他们做的很多事情都毫无道理。

And they had this crazy larger than life personality that most of the things they did made no sense whatsoever.

但是，你

But You

从技术上讲。

mean technically.

但那就是他们的魅力所在。

But that was their appeal.

对。

Yeah.

他们就是这样的人，乔治最喜欢看他们比赛了，

And they were these guys and Georges loved to watch them more

比其他任何人都喜欢。

than anyone else.

永远不知道这些人会做出什么事来。

Never knew what what could happen with these guys.

我记得马克·科尔曼赢得Pride大奖赛的时候。

I remember when Mark Coleman won the Pride Grand Prix.

我当时就在客厅里。

Was I in my living room.

我激动得跳了起来。

I was jumping.

我太高兴了。

I was so happy.

我当时就想，对！

I was like, yeah.

他打败了伊戈尔。

He beat Igor.

对我来说，那真是太棒了。

I was like, I like, for to me, it was amazing.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

因为他们把那种情绪带进了比赛。

Because of the emotion that they they brought into the the fight.

乔治，其实我对你说的某句话很感兴趣。

Georges, actually, very interested by something you said there.

通常，当我问某个拳手的吸引力在哪里，以及人们为什么看比赛时，你提到了拳手娱乐我们的观点，这完全正确。

Normally, when I ask what is the appeal of a given fighter and what makes people watch a fight, you you talked about the idea that fighters entertain us, and that's absolutely correct.

他们确实是。

They they are.

这是一个很奇怪的行业，你既是运动员又是表演者，要想在经济上取得成功，这两方面都得做好。

It's this weird weird industry where you're you're both an athlete and an entertainer, and you need to be successful in both regards to become financially successful.

就你最喜欢看的运动员而言，他们几乎都是和你截然相反的人。

Insofar as your favorite athletes to to watch at least, were people who are almost like the polar opposite of who you are.

我一直说，大多数人，比如有一百万人看一场按次付费的比赛，其中有多少人真正懂技术，能看懂比赛呢？

I've always said that most people, if you look at, say, a million people watch a pay per view event, what percentage of those million people have a genuine technical understanding of what's happening as they watch a fight?

很少。

It's tiny.

非常少。

It's absolutely tiny.

绝大多数看职业比赛的人，对眼前发生的事几乎没有任何技术上的理解。

The vast majority of people who watch a professional fight have almost no technical understanding of what's going on in front of them.

那他们是怎么和比赛产生共鸣的呢？

So how do they relate to the fight?

他们唯一能做的就是通过情感。

What's the only way they can?

就是通过情感。

It's through emotion.

所以当他们感觉到这两个人不喜欢彼此时，他们就能与比赛产生共鸣。

And so when they get a sense that these two don't like each other, then they can relate to the fight.

但只有极少数观看某场职业比赛的人能在技术层面产生共鸣。

But only a tiny percentage of people watching a given professional fight can relate to it on a technical level.

绝大多数人总是会对比赛产生情感上的联系。

The overwhelming majority will always form an emotional attachment to the fight.

这就是为什么你看像USC黄金时段这样的节目时，他们从不关注战术和技术。

That's why when you see things shows like USC primetime, they never focus on tactics and the techniques of the fight.

他们关注的是情感元素、准备过程，以及运动员准备时家人眼中的他们。

They focus on the emotional elements, the preparation, the the view of their own family members as athletes get ready.

总是情感上的牵引，因为99%的观众都是这样与比赛产生共鸣的。

It's always an emotional pull, because that's how 99% of the viewers relate to the fight.

如果我想想国际象棋的话。

If I have think about chess.

对吧？

Okay?

如果我对两位世界冠军要来比赛或者对弈一盘国际象棋只有很少的了解，我对国际象棋的战术知之甚少，我根本无法对棋盘上发生的事情形成任何技术上的欣赏。

If I have minimal knowledge of two world champions coming to to fight each other and or match up against each other in a in a game of chess, I know so little about chess tactics, and I can't really form any kind of technical appreciation of what's going on on the board.

但如果你告诉我这两位棋手彼此恨之入骨，他们有长达五年的恩怨，而且他们在公开场合互相说过对方的坏话。

But if you tell me that these two chess players hate each other's guts, they've got a rivalry which goes back five years, and they've said this and that about each other in public.

那我突然就竖起耳朵了，我会想，哦，这样啊。

Then suddenly my ears prick up, and I'm like, oh, okay.

这听起来有意思。

This sounds interesting.

因为我对国际象棋棋盘上发生的事情没有足够的知识去欣赏他们所做的技术细节。

Because I I just don't have the the knowledge to appreciate what's going on on the board in a chess game to be able to appreciate the technical nuances of what they're doing.

所以我对这场国际象棋比赛的任何兴趣都只能来自某种情感层面，因为我根本没有资格做技术评估，而这正是格斗和综合格斗的情况。

So any interest that I have in the chess match is gonna have to come from some kind of emotional level, because I'm just not qualified to make technical assessments, and that's exactly how it is in the case of both grappling and mixed martial arts.

所以，最能吸引注意力的总是那些能唤起某种情感共鸣的人。

That's why the ones who evoke the most attention are always the ones who can form some kind of emotional appeal.

康纳·麦格雷戈就是这方面的大师。

Conor McGregor was the all time master of this.

我也相信，情绪可以当作武器来用。

I I believe also emotion can be used as a weapon.

比如，我从我最喜欢的拳击手那里学到了这一点，那就是舒格·雷·伦纳德。

For example, I've learned I've learned this from my favorite boxer is Sugar Ray Leonard.

舒格·雷·伦纳德，我记得。

Sugar Ray Leonard, I remember.

那时候我很小，所以后来长大一点才看了他的比赛。

I was very young, so I I watched his fight later when I was older.

但对我来说，舒格·雷·伦纳德是他那个时代最棒的拳击手。

But I know that Sugar Ray Leonard was the best boxer of his era to me personally.

我觉得没人能打败他。

And I don't think nobody could beat him.

我觉得论技术，他是最棒的。

I think he was skill skill wise, he was the best.

但是，当他在蒙特利尔比赛时，罗伯托·杜兰让伦纳德变得非常情绪化。

However, when he fought in Montreal, Roberto Duran Roberto Duran made it in a way that Leonard became very emotional.

他想站在杜兰面前，打一场不同于他平时风格的比赛，因为他想证明自己是个男子汉。

He wanted to stand in front of Duran and fight a different fight that that he normally does because he wanted to show that he's a man.

结果他输掉了那场比赛，那是个错误。

And he lost that fight, which was a mistake.

所以后来，他轻松击败了罗伯托·杜兰，你知道，大家都记得那场“无面具”的比赛。

So by by then later on, he beat Roberto Duran quite easy, you know, the the fair everybody remember the no mask thing.

但我的重点是，情绪可以被用来让你的对手偏离他的计划。

But my point is emotion can be used in a way that it can make your derail your opponent out of his game plan.

我感觉很多对手都试图对我这么做。

And I felt a lot of my opponent trying to do that with me.

所以这就是为什么我从不被卷入其中。

So that's why I never got involved.

那是我保护自己免受某种欺负的方式，就像在面前竖起一面盾牌。

That was my way to defend myself against some kind of bullying to put like a like a shield in front.

其他一些人，比如戈登，他表达自己的方式不同。

Some other guy like Gordon, he he expressed himself differently.

当然，存在语言障碍，但对他来说，他更擅长回击。

Of course, there's a language barrier, but for him, he's better at giving giving giving back.

那是他的方式，他更擅长反击。

That's his he's a better counterattacker.

你知道吗？

You know?

那就是他应对情绪攻击的方式。

That's the way he respond to to to the aggression of of a of an emotional attack.

我觉得每个人在这方面都不一样。

I think everybody is different in that regard.

有趣的是，约翰说他不会研究这个游戏的战术，或者你可能对这个游戏的战术不感兴趣。

What's interesting that John said that he doesn't study the tactics of this game, or maybe you're not interested in the tactics of this game.

对。

Yeah.

因为这看起来不仅仅是当个娱乐表演者。

Because it seems like this is more than just being an entertainer.

看起来这可能是比赛中的一个有效部分。

It seems like it could be an effective part of the match.

对。

Yeah.

我只是觉得，无论你在那上面投入多少，回报都会微乎其微。

I I just feel like whatever investment you make in that is it's gonna get negligible rewards.

首先，它可能只适用于眼前的一场比赛，而不是你整个职业生涯。

First of it's probably only gonna pertain to one match in front of you rather than the totality of your career.

而且，通过心理战术和把戏得到的收益通常不会持续太久。

And whatever gains you get out of psychological trickery and play typically don't last long.

你举了一个很好的例子，就是舒格·雷·伦纳德。

You you raised an excellent example with Sugar Ray Leonard.

那场比赛他确实没有按他惯常的风格来打。

He did fight outside of his usual manner in that regard.

但与其让我去告诉别人，嘿，

But rather than me try to tell someone, hey.

赛前要这样那样表现，我可能更会在回合间对运动员强硬地说，不。

Behave like this before a fight, I would have been probably more forceful between rounds with an athlete and say, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你这场比赛的打法不对。

You're fighting this fight the wrong way.

那对我的运动员的影响会比赛前搞心理战术有益得多。

And that would have a much more beneficial impact on my athlete than psychological trickery before a fight.

我觉得另一个因情绪导致失败的例子是何塞·奥尔多对阵康纳·麦格雷戈那场。

I believe another example of emotion that leads to failure is Jose Aldo against Conor McGregor.

我觉得康纳·麦格雷戈是故意的，他试图引诱奥尔多变得过于激进，从而暴露自己，因为他是个出色的反击拳手。

I think it was it was on purpose that Conor McGregor did this, tried to bait Haldo to become over aggressive to open him himself because he's an excellent counterpuncher puncher.

我是这么认为的。

That's what I believe.

他犯了个错误。

He made a mistake.

还有一个很棒的例子。

There's another great one.

我对阵赛博格的那场比赛，嗯。

My match against Cyborg Mhmm.

2018年无道服世锦赛，他根本没想赢。

2018 No Gi Worlds, where he didn't even try to win.

他只是一直想扇我脸，因为他太生气了。

He just, like, wanted to smack me in the face the whole time because he was so angry.

赛前我一直在对他喷垃圾话，而且那好像是绝对级别的决赛。

I was talking shit to him before the match, and it was, like, the finals of the absolute.

那好像是周末最重要的一场比赛，但他根本没想过要过我的防守或者做别的什么。

It was, like, the biggest match of the weekend, and he just didn't even try to pass my guard or do anything.

他就想打我的脸，我当时就想，太爽了。

He just wanted to hit me in the face, and I was like, sick.

我就这么赢了。

I just won.

那真是让人极其沮丧。

It was incredibly frustrating.

对。

Yeah.

看着真有意思。

It's fascinating to watch.

就像一个成年人失去了冷静。

Like a grown man sort of lose composure.

戈登，有一件事我一直对你印象很深，那就是不管赛前谈话多激烈，你上场去缠斗的时候，绝对冷静。

Gordon, one thing I've always been very impressed with with you, and that's no matter how heated talk gets before a match with you, when you go out to grapple, you're absolutely cold.

我觉得你从来没有带着别的情绪上场，只有冷静的计算。

Like, I've you've never gone into a a match carrying anything other than just cold blooded calculation.

你一直都能很好地区分言语和行动。

And you've always been able to separate very well the idea of words and and deeds.

我认为这始终是你最强的优势之一。

And I think that's always been one of your one of your strongest assets.

我衡量这一点的一个方法是，比赛结束后，我会问运动员关于比赛的问题。

A way I often measure this is when a match is over, I will ask the athlete questions about the match.

如果他们回答不上来，比如你在第四分钟在做什么？

And if they can't answer the question, what were you doing in the fourth minute?

好。

Okay.

你在第三分钟用了什么技巧进入木村锁？

What was that setup you used in in the third minute that got you into the Kimura lock?

如果他们回答不上来，那就说明他们只是凭本能和情绪在打。

If they can't answer that, that tells me they were just fighting on instincts and emotion.

但戈登的话，就像一本航海日志。

But with Gordon, it's like a logbook.

就像，好的，在第七分钟你从左侧用了那个柔道式过肩摔的布置。

It's like, okay, in the seventh minute you went for that judikitami setup from from on the left side.

你当时在想什么？

What were you thinking?

他总能给出答案。

He can always give an answer.

他绝对冷静得像块石头。

He's absolutely stone cold.

说到情绪，戈登，如果你身体没问题的话，你可能会在接下来的ADCC中面对安德烈·加尔瓦奥。是的。

Speaking of emotion, Gordon, you will potentially, if you're healthy, face Andrey Galvale in the ADCC coming up Yeah.

超级战。

Super fight.

对于不了解的人来说，安德烈·加尔瓦奥是谁？

Who is Andrey Galvale for people who don't know?

你能讲讲你和那个人的恩怨，以及你们之间的情感互动吗？

Can you tell the story of your beef with the the emotional interaction with a man?

对。

Yeah.

安德烈，他被认为是有史以来最伟大的ADCC选手，多次获得黑带世界冠军，也是ADCC历史上夺冠次数最多的选手。

So Andrey is he's considered the greatest ADCC competitor of all time, multiple time black belt world champion, winningest ADCC champion ever.

他有六枚金牌。

Has six six gold medals.

而我几乎一直在尝试和他比赛。

And I've been trying to compete against him pretty much forever.

比如，自从2016年我拿到黑带以来，我就一直想和他交手。

Like, since I got my black belt in 2016, I've been trying to get matches with him.

他参加了我参加的第一届DBI，但最后他退出了，之后我一直想和他比赛，但他总是找各种理由拒绝。

He was in the first DBI that I did and he ended up pulling out, and then I've been trying to get matches with him, and he would always say no and give one reason or another.

然后在上一届ADCC之后，我说，嘿，安德烈说他在这场比赛之后就要退役了，所以如果他想退役，你知道，他是有史以来最伟大的ADCC选手，我觉得这很棒，但如果他想继续比赛，那也很好。

And then after the last ADCC, I was like, hey, Andre said he was retiring after this after this this competition, so if he wants to retire, you know, he's he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time and think it's great, but if he wants to compete, then that's great too.

我当时表现得超级友好。

I was like super nice.

然后他开始在Instagram上发一些阴阳怪气的帖子，我们就在网上你来我往地吵起来了。

And then he started, like, posting, like, passive aggressive Instagram captions, and then we started going back and forth on the Internet.

有一次我当面见到他，他承认说，我明白你在做什么，我们要把这场比赛炒热，他当时完全同意。

And there was, like, one point where I saw him in person when he acknowledged, he's like, I understand like what you're doing, like we're gonna pump this fight up, and he was like totally on board.

但后来肯定发生了什么事，让他从配合变成了真的生气。

But then there must have been something that happened where like it changed from like him like going along with it to being like actually pissed.

然后在Flow的那天晚上，我去跟他握手，他对我竖中指，然后跟着我到了后台，想跟我打架，我扇了他一巴掌，他就不想打了。

And then there was that one night at Flow where I went to go shake his hand and he he flipped me off and then he followed me backstage and started to try to fight me, and then I smacked him and then he didn't want to fight anymore.

然后我们一直这样，他现在在Instagram上把我拉黑了，所以他干脆不回应了。

And then we've been going back he's actually blocked me on Instagram now, so he he just won't engage.

Atos的人现在也不回应了，但有意思的是，他到时候会怎么表现，能不能控制住自己。

No one from Atos will engage now, but it's gonna be interesting how he how he shows up if he can keep it under control or not.

你觉得你怎么解释那种程度的情绪？

Do you think how do you explain that level of emotion?

这是害怕失去你的王位吗？

Is this fear of losing your throne?

还是说，这只是一个人类，或者说一个半机械人，变得情绪不稳定了？

Is it or is it just a human being, like, a cyborg just just becoming emotionally unstable?

什么？可能只是我自己的问题。

What It might just be me.

我就是有办法惹恼别人。

I just have a way to get get under people's skin.

我也不知道。

I just I don't know.

他之前还挺好的，但后来我就不知道怎么回事了。

He's he's he was he was cool for a while, and then I just I don't know.

每个人都会变成这样。

It just everyone gets like this.

他们真正上场竞争的时候都情绪化得很，很容易看穿他们。

They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them.

他们要么情绪激动到真的想冲上来打败我，就像蒂姆·斯普里格斯在ABCC那样，他就是个完美的例子。

They're either so emotional that they want to actually come forward and and beat me, like like Tim Spriggs is a perfect example at ABCC.

比赛前十分钟，我在Instagram上发了条动态，说我要对蒂姆·斯普里格斯做的事会像犯罪一样。

I posted like on my story on Instagram, like ten minutes before our match, I said like, what I'm gonna do to Tim Spriggs is gonna be criminal.

他是个特别会拖延的人，他看到那条动态后，出来就真的想跟我打。

And he's like a very stalling guy, and he came he saw that and then he came out and actually tried to fight me.

他过来真的进攻我的防守，结果我把他降服了。

Like, came and actually engaged my guard and I ended up submitting him.

所以要么有那种效果，要么就是他们知道我在赛前说了那么多狠话，怕输怕得要死，结果就变得特别保守，躲得远远的。

So it either has that effect or it has the effect where they know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match that they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stall y and they move away.

所以要么他们冲上来想打败我，要么就是他们太怕被降服，知道一旦交手就会特别谨慎，然后往后退，什么都不做。

So it either has one effect where they come forward and they wanna they wanna beat me beat me, or they wanna just they're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage, they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything.

你觉得这场比赛会打起来吗？

Do you think this match happens?

有很多

There's a lot

有很多变数。

of variables.

第一，得看我的胃怎么样；第二，如果我确实要去参赛而且胃是健康的，我怀疑安德烈根本不会露面来比赛。

One, have to see how my stomach is, and two, if I'm actually gonna show up and compete and my stomach's healthy, I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete.

我六年来一直想跟他比赛，他都没答应，所以没理由认为他现在会答应。

I've been trying to compete against him for six years, and he hasn't done it, so there's no reason to think he would now.

你能不能说说你对胃的情况的估计，还是说现在还不清楚？

Is it possible for you to speak to where, like, your estimates are about your stomach, or is it too unclear for now?

现在说还太早。

Still too early to tell.

我这轮治疗要持续到二月底，我确定我需要做和最初一样的检查，重新测所有指标，然后再决定下一步。

I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February, and I'm pretty sure that I need to do the same test I did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there.

所以我感觉好一点了，不像以前那么严重了。

So I've been feeling a little bit better, like it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

前几天我跟人解释说，过去四年我恶心得很厉害，每次走进一个新房间，我都得先找垃圾桶，以防要吐。

I was explaining to someone the other day, like, the last four years I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room, I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up.

所以我现在比那个好一点。

So I'm like one step above that right now.

我现在比那个好一些了。

I'm like doing a little bit better than that.

所以确实在好转，但还没达到理想状态。

So it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not it's not where it needs to be.

我们能稍微聊聊饮食吗？

Can we can we talk about diet for just a sec?

因为你们两位，乔治和戈登，都有胃部问题，但类型不同，而且现在情况也不一样。

Because both of you, Georges and and Gordon, like, suffered from stomach issues, different kind, and have arrived for now for different places.

那么，乔治，你能谈谈关于什么是一般性的问题吗？

So can you maybe, Georges, speak to the general question of what is

对表现和训练来说，最好的饮食是什么？

the best diet for performance, for training?

比如，你在职业生涯中学到了什么？

Like, what have you learned through your career about this?

嗯，我觉得每个人都不一样。

Well, I I think everybody is different.

就我个人而言，我会进行断食、限时进食，还有长时间断食。

To me, personally, I implement fasting, time restricted eating, and and prolonged fasting.

你目前最长断食过多久？

What's the longest you've done so far?

我最长断食过五天。

The longest I've done is five days.

你做过

You've done

五天那么久？

five quite days?

经常。

Often.

我一年做四次。

I do I do four time a year.

我会做三到五天的清水断食。

I do three to five days water fast.

而且我很喜欢。

And I I liked it.

它对我的炎症有帮助。

It helps me with inflammation.

我觉得它能增强免疫系统，我读过相关论文，而且它让我感觉很好。

I think it boosts the immune system, and that does about the the I read papers about about this, and it helps me also feel feel good.

这有点像一种治疗方式，

It's kind of very therapeutic

对我来说。

to me.

是身体上的还是心理上的，还是只是心理上的？

Physical and mental or just mental?

对。

Yeah.

精神和身体上都有，因为当我结束禁食，和别人一起坐在餐桌旁时，我吃什么并不重要。

Mental and physical because when I eat my when I break my fast and I sit at the table with with other people, it doesn't matter what I eat.

如果我们都吃同样的东西，我总是告诉他们。

If we all eat the same thing, I always tell them.

我说，我现在吃的食物比你们所有人的都好吃，你知道，因为我有这种想法，我相信有时候你需要让自己受苦，才能意识到某样东西是多么令人愉悦。

I said, my my food right now tastes better than all of yours, you know, because I, you know, I I have the this thing that I I believe sometimes you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how pleasurable something is.

而且我个人倾向于，在饮食方面，我想吃什么就吃什么，对。

And I tend personally like, diet wise, I eat whatever I want Mhmm.

想什么时候吃就什么时候吃。

Whenever I want.

我不再有任何问题。

I don't I no longer have any problem with this.

但如果我有比赛临近，根据我现在对自己身体的了解，我会更倾向于以动物性饮食为主。

But if I would have a competition coming up, like, knowing that I what I know now about my body, I would orient myself more towards an animal based diet.

那是因为我尝试过不同的饮食，而那种饮食我相信能帮助我减少炎症，并且在体能表现方面感觉更好。

That's because I've tried different things and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for for for doing something physical.

所以是高蛋白、高脂肪、低碳水。

So high protein, high fat, low carbs.

嗯，动物性饮食和生酮饮食还是有区别的。

Well, it's this is is different between animal based diet and keto.

对。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，还是有碳水的。

I mean, there is carbs.

有很多水果。

There there is a lot of fruit.

我很多碳水都是从水果里来的。

I get a lot of the the the carbs from the fruit.

好的。

Okay.

很多内脏，内脏。

A lot of organs organs.

内脏。

Orgamates.

对。

Yeah.

我对古生物学和史前人类的历史略知一二，而且我知道。

I know a little bit about paleontology and and the the past of on about prehistoric human, and and I I know that.

不仅如此，我还知道，因为我曾去过世界上的某些地方。

And not not only about that, I know because I've I've traveled certain place in the world.

我去非洲拜访过马赛人，那个游牧部落。

I went to to visit the Maasai in Africa, the Yontar Gather tribe.

我知道他们杀动物时，会先吃内脏。

And I know that when they kill an animal, they go for the organs first.

而且我知道大多数食肉动物也是这样。

And I know a pretty most predatory animal, they do the same thing.

所以，我相信内脏在我们的文化中，在西方世界，我们通常不吃，但它非常有营养。

So organs, I believe, is something that normally in in our culture in in the Western part of the world, we don't really eat, but it's something that is very nutritious.

你有没有说服戈登尝试禁食？

Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting?

我们总是谈论饮食。

We always talk about diets.

我觉得戈登的情况不一样，因为他是重量级选手。

It it it it's a different situation, I think, for Gordon because he's an heavyweight.

他不想减肥。

He he doesn't wanna lose weight.

你知道，重量级选手的体重范围，比如我的范围，我是次中量级和中量级，但重量级，有些对手可能重达300磅。

You know, when a heavyweight the the range of like, my my range was like, I was a welterweight and middleweight, but heavyweight, it's like some of the guys that you compete can compete against their mean, there might be 300.

所以如果减肥，那是个大问题。

So if you lose weight, it's a it's a big problem.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以有些方法对我有效，但对戈登可能没用，你知道的。

So and there is things that will work for me that might not works for Gordon, you know.

所以我们得让他自己去体验。

So we have to make his own experience.

而且我跟戈登说过，有时候当大家都往左走的时候，你试试往右走。

And and I told Gordon, sometime when everybody goes left, you try to go right.

看看你对某些东西的感觉如何。

See how you feel with certain things.

做实验。

Experiment.

这不是你优化表现公式里的一部分吗？

Not not a topic that's part of your optimization optimal performance formula?

嗯，我以前在胃出问题之前，我是说，那些正在听的听众可能不知道，我在2018年反复感染葡萄球菌，然后我吃了很多口服抗生素，结果把胃彻底搞坏了。当时我被误诊为胃轻瘫，所以那些在Instagram上给我发消息、正在看罗根节目问我胃轻瘫的人，其实那不是我的问题。他们误诊了，我后来做了其他检查，但四年里我都不知道到底是什么病。

Well, what I used to do before, my stomach issues, and for those of you listening who don't know, I had recurring staph infections in 2018, and I took a bunch of oral antibiotics and it just completely wiped out my stomach, so I just was diagnosed I was misdiagnosed as gastroparesis, so for those of you messaging me on Instagram who are just watching Rogan asking me about my gastroparesis, that's not what I They misdiagnosed it and I did some other tests and for four years, I didn't even know what it was.

后来我去了加州一个医生那里，他诊断出我感染了幽门螺杆菌，而且小肠里有真菌和细菌过度生长，所以问题出在小肠。

And then I got this I went to this doctor in California who diagnosed me with I have H pylori and then a fungal and a bacterial overgrowth in my small intestines, so the issues in the small intestines.

所以我以前的做法是，我会分赛季，比如在比赛期间我会保持一个非常干净的赛季，体重会低一些，然后我会像健美运动员那样进入非赛季，吃更多食物，而且吃得稍微不那么干净，晚上会吃芝士汉堡和披萨来补充额外的卡路里。

So what I used to do was I used to do like seasons where I'd have a very clean season where I was competing and I would have a lower body weight, and then I would do like an off season, kind of like a bodybuilder where I would eat a lot more food and a little bit dirtier food and I would have cheeseburgers and pizza at nighttime to have the extra calories.

但现在我不能吃那些食物了，因为它们会让我胃不舒服。

But now I can't eat those foods because they upset my stomach.

所以现在我就尽量吃我能吃的，根据胃的感觉尽量维持体重。

So now I pretty much just try to eat whatever I can and maintain the weight the best I can based around how my stomach feels.

所以现在就是米饭、鸡肉、鸡蛋、鱼、蔬菜、水果，基本上没有别的了。

So right now, it's like rice, chicken, eggs, fish, vegetables, fruits, and pretty much nothing else.

像任何难消化的、辣的、红肉、快餐，那些对我来说都很难。

Like anything hard to digest, anything spicy, red meat, fast food, all that's all that's hard for me.

这太糟糕了，因为在德克萨斯，所有

Which sucks because in Texas All

那些东西。

of that things.

对。

Yeah.

烧烤。

Barbecue.

我是说，这个饮食对你真的很重要，约翰，我看得出来。

I mean, this diet is really important for you, John, I can tell.

比如说，这是不是也是你为运动员考虑的事情？

Like, is it is that something you think about for athletes at all?

或者，再说一次，这也是“不”的一部分。

Or, again, this is part of the No.

说实话，我从来没有见过通过改变饮食能在柔术运动表现上有什么明显的提升。

I've I've to be honest with you, I've never seen any measurable improvement in sports performance in jiu jitsu by change of diet.

我确实相信饮食对人的长寿很重要，而且我认为它确实有影响，尤其是过了40岁以后。

I do believe that diet is important for longevity in human beings, and I do think it makes a difference, especially once you get past the age of 40.

对于年纪大一点的运动员来说，就长寿而言，我确实认为饮食有些影响。

With regards to longevity, for older athletes, I do believe it makes some difference.

但我的观察是，年轻运动员和处于巅峰期的运动员，我见过他们饮食最差。

But my observation is in athletes in their youth and working up into their prime, I've seen athletes have the worst diets.

上帝保佑特拉维斯·史蒂文斯，但那家伙基本上是靠麦当劳和糖果拿了奥运银牌。

God bless Travis Stevens, but that guy won an Olympic silver medal basically on McDonald's and candy.

是的。

Yeah.

乔治·圣皮埃尔，你职业生涯的80%都是靠麦当劳和可口可乐撑着的。

Georges St Pierre for 80% of your career, you were powered by McDonald's and Coca Cola.

奶油培根意面，那是我最喜欢的。

The fettuccine Alfredo, that was my Yeah.

那是我冠军赛前的首选餐。

My my meal of choice before a championship fight.

戈登，他年轻时就靠五兄弟汉堡。

Gordon, for him, his youth was just five guys hamburgers.

加里·托宁也一样。

Gary Tonin, same thing.

我合作过的日本柔道选手，有的每天抽一包烟，还拿了奥运金牌。

I've worked with Japanese judo players who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and won Olympic gold medals.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我合作过的俄罗斯摔跤手，他们就是面前放什么就吃什么，但运动表现非常出色。

I've worked with Russian wrestlers who just ate whatever was put in front of them, and their athletic performance was outstanding.

我也和其他饮食非常干净的人合作过，但他们的表现并不比场上其他人好。

I've worked with other guys who did have what would be considered a very clean diet, and their performance was no better than anyone else on the mat.

所以我从没见过有人说，好吧。

So I've I've never I've never seen someone say, okay.

我改变了饮食，然后运动表现就有了明显的提升。

I I changed my diet, and because of that, there was a measurable improvement in in sports performance.

不过换个说法，我注意到很多顶级运动员，他们开始相信他们吃的东西要么不是障碍，要么实际上是有益的。

Another way to phrase it, though, is I have noticed with a lot of elite athletes, what they eat, they begin to believe that that either is not a hindrance or it's actually good.

比如，史蒂夫就是个例子，他吃得很差，因为他相信这就像一种力量。

Like, Steve is is an example of somebody who eats shitty because he believes it's like it's like a power.

因为无论他旅行到世界哪个地方，他都不能指望有健康的好食物。

Because whatever he's traveling across the world, he can't rely on healthy good food to be there.

所以我要吃得很差，这样我的身体就知道如何在任何情况下表现，不管是彩虹糖还是麦当劳。

So I'm going to eat shitty so that that's the like, my body knows how to perform under whatever Skittles or whatever got McDonald's.

到处都有麦当劳。

Everywhere's got McDonald's.

所以他们就这样说服了自己。

So it makes like, and they've convinced themselves.

而且你提到俄罗斯运动员，他们很多人对某种食物有益健康有很强的信念。

And you're talking about Russian athletes, a lot of them have very strong beliefs about, like, this particular food being good for them.

但他们之间并没有共识。

But there's no agreement among them.

没错。

Exactly.

没有共识。

No agreement.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以信念比实际饮食更重要。

So belief is more important than the actual diet.

对。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

如果我可以，你知道，在晚上出去玩之后，当你宿醉时，我认为最好的东西，而且我是真心实意地说。

If I can after, you know, after a night out when you hang over, I think the best thing and and I'm saying this in all sincerity.

我认为对我来说最好的食物是像芝士汉堡，我们那叫它“pudson”，因为它很油腻。

I think the best thing to eat to me was like a like a cheese cheeseburgers with we call that a pudson back home because it's very fat.

它很油腻。

It's greasy.

所以第二天醒来时，我觉得你会感觉好一些，因为它吸收了酒精。

So it so the next day when you wake up, I think you feel better because it absorbed the the alcohol.

你说。

You go.

百分之百。

100%.

你可以去锻炼，然后消耗掉那些热量。

You can train and then spend the gas.

我妈也跟我讲过同样的事。

My mom told me the same story once.

对。

Yeah.

然后我试过，比如我因为某个派对宿醉，醒来的时候。

And then then I try was like, I was hungover for some party and I woke up.

我大概，不知道，十九或二十岁，醒来后我妈就说，对，吃个芝士汉堡，或者去吃些油腻的东西。

I was like probably, I don't know, 19 or 20, I woke up and my mom was like, yeah, just have a have a cheeseburger or go go eat go eat something greasy.

我照做了，然后我就觉得，哦，我现在感觉好多了。

And I did and I was like, oh, I feel kinda better now.

我不知道这背后的科学原理，但每次我都注意到，不管是不是真的，如果我喝得很厉害，睡前不吃东西，不吃那些垃圾食品，第二天醒来感觉会更糟；如果我吃了垃圾食品，反而感觉更好。

I I do not know the science, the exact science behind it, but I I I I always notice, and I don't know if it's possible, but I always notice that if I if I'm if I'm if I party hard and I've been drinking a lot, if I don't eat before I go into bed, if I don't eat shitty food, the next day I will wake up and feel worse than if I eat shitty food, I feel better.

我知道这听起来很疯狂。

I know it sounds crazy.

我不知道为什么，但对我来说挺管用的。

I don't know why, but it works for me.

对。

Yeah.

但要对顶尖运动员做科学研究也很难。

But it's also hard to do science on extreme performers.

所以我们讨论的是精英阶层的情况，你知道，这可能不适用于一般的业余运动员。

So the discussions we're having is amongst the very elite, you know, that that this might not apply to a general, like, recreational athlete.

但对于精英来说，我在各种格斗运动中都见过冠军，

But for the elite, I've just seen champions in every kind of combat sport,

而且我从未见过30岁以下的人饮食习惯和表现之间有什么关联。

and I've never seen a correlation between dietary habit and performance in people under the age of 30.

不过，我确实相信饮食对长寿很重要。

I do believe that diet is important for longevity, however.

就这一点来说，花时间在这上面可能很值得。

And for that alone, it it may well be worth investing time in it.

但就运动表现而言，至少在柔术里，我没见过任何显著的差异。

But with regards to sports performance, at least in jujitsu, I've never seen any significant difference.

嗯，我想我们在这个问题上有点分歧。

Well, we had a little bit of a difference of opinion on this, I think.

那力量训练和增肌呢？

What about strength training and muscle building?

或者至少我们讨论过这个。

Or at least we had a discussion about this.

那你认为，在运动之外进行训练的价值是什么？

So so what do you believe is the value of of, you know, training outside of the sport?

比如健身、举重、爆发力举重，各种举重。

So fitness, lifting heavy, lifting explosive, all kinds of lifting.

你

You

就我个人而言，我相信，而且我是从约翰那里学到的。

Personally, for me, I believe, and I I've learned that from from John.

我以前像健美运动员那样训练，因为在我早期比赛的时候，我觉得那是最有效的方式，因为我当时看的是尚格·云顿、阿诺德·施瓦辛格。

I used to to do, like to train like a bodybuilder before because I thought in my early days of competition, that was the most efficient way to do things to because it was like, I was watching Jean Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

那时候我们觉得那就是正道。

We thought back back in the day that was the thing.

我们觉得就应该那样做，为比赛做准备。

That that's how we should do it, you know, for to get to get ready for a fight.

但后来我意识到，关键在于效率。

But I realized later on that it's all about efficiency.

有些人根本不举铁，但他们表现得很好。

And some guys, they don't lift at all, and they're doing pretty well.

所以我做交叉训练主要是为了长寿。

So I do cross training mostly for longevity.

这主要是为了治疗，像一种疗法。

It's mostly for therapeutic therapeutic like a therapy.

这更多是为了治疗，而不是为了表现。

It's more therapeutic than for performance.

这是为了保持身体健康，做一些和每天在格斗训练中不同的动作，让我保持健康和运动能力。

It's to keep my body healthy, to do a certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym in combat sport, to keep me healthy and and athletic.

所以你在运动之外做的那些有趣的训练，都是为了治疗吗？

So all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport, that was for therapeutic?

主要是为了治疗。

Mostly therapeutic.

我觉得它可能也能提升表现，但主要还是为了治疗。

I think it does it could trans transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic.

我不认为深蹲五片杠铃片或者卧推三片杠铃片能让我成为更好的格斗选手。

I do not believe that squatting five plates or or bench bench pressing three plate will make me a better fighter.

我不这么认为。

I do not.

实际上，我觉得那可能对我更有害。

I I believe, actually, it could hurt me more.

它可能对我的伤害大于好处。

It could damage me more than than benefit me.

所以，戈登，作为

So, Gordon, as

一个在Instagram上经常晒出自己肌肉发达、身材健硕照片的人，力量的价值是什么？

somebody who on Instagram posts a lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge, what's the value of of strength?

所以我喜欢结合约翰让我们小时候练的那些体操动作，比如脚趾触杠和双力臂之类的。

So I do like a combination of John got us big into, like, gymnastics type movements, like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that when we were young.

比如脚趾触杠，因为那正是你防守时保持姿势需要做的动作，就是膝盖贴近胸口。

Like toes to bar because that's, like, the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guard, is knees to chest.

所以我做很多这类动作，同时我也做很多和乔治相反的训练，我做很多健美训练，比如基本的分化训练，胸和三头肌一天，背和二头肌一天。

So I do a lot of that stuff in combination with I do a lot of opposite of Georges, I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts where I do like a basic split, a chest and triceps, back and biceps day.

我的想法是，举重应该永远是柔术的补充，所以你不应该为了举重而错过柔术训练。

And my idea is that weight lifting should always be a supplement to jujitsu, so you shouldn't be missing a jujitsu session to lift weights.

所以我可能每天练柔术，每周举重三到四次。

So I don't do I do probably I train jujitsu every day, and I lift three to four times a week.

我觉得对我来说，一周练七天太多了，而且做那种大重量训练会消耗很多能量。

I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is too much, and the lifting takes a lot of energy when you do, like, hard lifts like that.

但我的想法是，如果你想练好柔术，就去练柔术；如果你想变得更大更强，就举铁和吃东西。

But my idea is if you want to get good at jujitsu, do jujitsu, and if you want to be bigger and stronger, lift weights and eat food.

我一般不会举特别重的重量，因为一旦开始上大重量，就容易拉伤肌肉什么的。所以我通常用中等重量，做高次数，比如四组二十次，最后再来一组递减组，让肌肉疲劳，撕裂纤维，从而生长。

And I generally don't go super heavy when I lift because you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff, so I usually do moderate weights with very high rep range, like four sets of 20 with a drop set at the end to fatigue the muscles, break the fibers, and grow.

好的。

Okay.

四组二十次，这挺有意思的。

So four sets of 20, that's interesting.

所以这更偏向于耐力和绝对力量。

So that that's more for endurance and raw strength.

对。

Yeah.

而且，我觉得临近比赛时，我会提高强度。虽然没法真正显著提高最大摄氧量，但我觉得举铁和习惯精神上的极限冲刺，能让我进入比赛状态。

And also, I think closer to competition, I'll pick the intensity up, and while there's no real way to get significant gains in v o two max, I think that lifting and just getting used to mentally redlining gets me kind of in competition shape.

因为很多时候在柔术里，跟我一起训练的那些人，他们的技术水平还没到能把我累到感觉快死掉的程度。

Because a lot of times in jujitsu, the guys I'm training with, they're not on a technical level where they can physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like I'm gonna die.

但我在摔跤的时候大部分时间都会有这种感觉，因为我在摔跤上没那么高效，所以会累得多。

But I get most of that like when I'm wrestling because I'm not as efficient in wrestling, so I get a lot more tired.

还有举重，如果你做四组20次的腿举或者深蹲，来回做，到最后你会感觉快不行了，我觉得这能让我在比赛前养成那种拼到极限的心理习惯。

And lifting, when you do like if you do like four sets of 20 leg press to squat and you go back and forth, like you're like about to die at the end and I think I feel like it gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition.

但是肌肉对你有帮助吗？

But does muscle help you?

就是实际的肌肉量，像这样

Like the actual mass of muscle, like this

我觉得更强壮在格斗中总是有帮助的。

think being stronger will always help in a combat

总是有帮助。

Will always help.

对。

Yeah.

在某种程度上。

To some degree.

它不会达到超越效率的程度，但我认为更强壮不会有害，反而有帮助。

It's not gonna be to a degree where it overrides efficiency, but I think that they can't help being or can't hurt being stronger.

嗯，有很多人认为，根据运动的不同，力量可能很快变得对效率有不利影响。

Well, there's a bunch of people who believe, depending on the sport, that the strength can quickly become that can have detrimental effects to efficiency.

是的。

Yes.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

某些类型，我的意思是，如果力量是纯粹的，非常干净地、纯粹地应用于运动的精确动作。

Certain kind I mean, if strength is pure is, like, very cleanly, purely applied to the exact movements of the sport.

所以在柔道中，你需要的爆发力很难通过任何方式复制，除非是练习柔道。

So in judo, the explosiveness you need is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo.

对。

Yeah.

对我来说，我总得明白，技巧能弥补的力量是有限的。

I mean, for us, I always have to understand there's only so much technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength.

比如说，如果我们都去跟一只银背大猩猩打，它肯定会把我们干掉。

Like, if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla, it's gonna kill us.

对。

Mhmm.

但话虽如此，我确实觉得，比如重量级选手通常技术最差，因为他们靠体型和力量去打败小个子。

But that that being said, I do think that, like, for example, heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size and strength to beat smaller people.

但我觉得如果你坚持把每个动作都做得非常精准，而且我大部分时间都是跟比我小的人训练，所以我就不会养成用蛮力的习惯。

But I think that if you stay with this with the discipline of doing everything very precise and I train with a lot smaller people most of the time, so I get out of the habit of using using my strength.

我觉得如果你训练时非常注重精准度，那么额外的体型和力量反而能帮到你。

I think if you're very precise with the way that you train, I think that the the extra size and strength can help you.

问个问题，你会怎么跟银背大猩猩打？

Quick question, how would you fight a silverback gorilla?

我是说，你觉得你能打败哪种动物，而且这种动物是大多数人觉得你打不过的，这样会让人印象深刻？

I mean, is there which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive that most people would say you can't?

你知道吗，其实我

You know, I actually

这个我还真答不上来。

I don't have an answer to this.

我以为你会说，我想说，我和约翰有一次就这个问题讨论了四个小时。

I thought you were gonna I say want I want I wanna say that me and John had like a four hour discussion on this one time.

我就想，熊和猩猩谁会赢？

I'm like, what would win, bear or gorilla?

然后他就开始长篇大论，说美洲豹怎么从下面翻过来，怎么对付熊和银背猩猩，怎么把它们干掉，怎么撕裂它们的动脉和腿。

And he went into, like, this whole dissertation about how, like, jaguars spin underneath and, like, bear and bowl silverbacks and kill them and, like, rip their rip their artery and their legs out.

那真是太精彩了。

It was amazing.

我想，好吧。

I guess okay.

那么，在我们讨论力量之前，约翰，我先问你，你觉得如果两种动物对决，其中一种会赢，而人们猜不到结果，那会是什么动物？

So before we talk about strength, John, let me ask you, what do you think people would be surprised by if two animals faced, one of them would win, and people wouldn't predict that?

所以他们会惊讶于某些动物在森林或丛林中的战斗能力。

So they would be surprised by the effectiveness of certain animal at fighting in the whether it's in the forest, in the jungle.

那么让我们……哇。

So let's Woah.

哇。

Woah.

哇。

Woah.

慢点说。

Slow down here.

说说你的看法。

Take your shot.

就是说，两种不同物种的动物打架，大多数人会选……

Take your there's two animals of different species fighting, and and most people would pick.

比如，狮子不知为何备受推崇。

So for example, the lion gets a lot of credit for some reason.

我也不太确定为什么，丛林之王嘛。

I'm not exactly sure why, the king of the jungle.

嗯，我，你知道，很多人跟我说，比如狮子，老虎能打败狮子。

Well, I I you know, a lot of people told me that the lion for example, the tiger can be the lion.

对。

Yeah.

这是那种老生常谈的争论之一。

This is one of those age old debates.

这个，好吧。

This is the okay.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，

Well,

在扭打和打斗中，感觉有些动物用牙齿，有些也用身体的其他部位。

in grappling, in fighting, it feels like some animals use teeth, and some use other parts of their body also.