#331 – 巴拉吉·斯里尼瓦桑：如何改革政府、推特、科学和FDA

然后会有一大批活动人士抗议，他们会去最高法院，或者十年、二十年、三十年、四十年后最高法院的样子，要求这些聊天机器人享有与人类相同的权利。

And then there'll be large groups of activists that will protest, and they'll go to the Supreme Court or whatever the Supreme Court looks like in in ten, twenty, thirty, forty years, and they will demand that these chatbots would have the same rights as us humans.

你觉得这有可能吗？

Do you think that's possible?

我见过那位谷歌工程师，他基本上说这种情况已经发生了，这让我很惊讶，因为当我看了他的聊天记录后，并不觉得特别有趣。

I saw that Google engineer who was basically saying this had already happened, and I was surprised by it because it just when I looked at the chat logs of it, it didn't seem particularly interesting.

另一方面，我完全可以想象，对于那些不太关注的人而言，GPT-3 已经显示出显著的进步。

On the other hand, I can definitely see I mean, GPT three, for people who, you know, haven't paid attention, shows that serious step ups are possible.

而且显然，你一直在你的播客里大量谈论人工智能。

And obviously, you know, you've talked about AI in your podcast a ton.

GPT-9 或者 GPT-15，甚至 GPT-4，会不会就是那样的存在？

Is it possible that GPT nine or something is is kind of like that or GPT 15 or or GPT four maybe?

但是的。

But Yeah.

对于只是在听的人而言，你的脸上流露出深深的怀疑。

For people just listening, there's a deep skepticism in your face.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，原因在于你知道什么是可能的吗？

You know, the reason being because you know what's possible?

有可能社会会基于这种根本差异产生分裂，你知道吗？

It's possible that you have like a partition of society on literally this basis, you know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是一种模型，就像有素食者和非素食者一样，可能有些机器有生命，有些机器只是机器，你知道吗？

That's one model, where there's some people just like there's vegetarians and nonvegetarians, right, there may be machines have life and machines are machines, you know?

或者类似的情况，对吧？

Or something like that, right?

你能想象未来会出现这样的分裂，你的基本政治和社会体系将以此为前提假设。

You know, could you could definitely imagine some kind of partition like that in the future where your fundamental political social system, that's a foundational assumption.

而且，你知道，人工智能是否应该享有和人类同等的权利？

And, you know, is AI does it, you know, deserve the same rights as like a human?

或者，例如，公司是一个中间体。

Or for example, a corporation is an intermediate.

你有没有注意到人类和公司之间的区别？

Do you see that thing which is how human are different corporations?

你看过那个信息图吗？

Have you seen that infographic?

这其实挺有趣的。

It's actually funny.

是的。

Yeah.

就像

It's like

一个连续体。

a spectrum.

存在一个连续体。

There's a spectrum.

比如，迪士尼被认为和狗一样有人性。

So for example, Disney is considered about as human as like a dog.

但像埃克森美孚这样的公司，我可能记不太清了，但它们有一个等级，一端是人类，另一端是石头。

But like Exxon I I may be remembering this from, but they had like a level with like human at one end and like rock at the

另一端？这和公司结构有关吗？

other Does that have to do with corporate structure?

我的意思是，它们也在做出反应。

What what what I

我认为这关乎人们对这家公司的同理心，以及它们的品牌，但有趣的是，人们确实认为公司或多或少具有人性，真正引发共鸣的是品牌。

think it's about people's empathy for that corporation, their brand But it's interesting to see that, first of all, people sort of do think of corporations as being more or like, the branding is really what they're responding to.

这正是我的意思，它们也在做出反应。

Well, that's what I mean, they're also responding.

你知道吗，我正在试图推销一个属于我自己的‘人设’品牌。

You know, I have a brand of human that I'm trying to sell.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且在大多数情况下，这似乎是有效的。

And it seems to be effective for the most part.

是的。

Sure.

不过，这已经变成一个笑谈，人们觉得我可能是个机器人。

Although it has become like a running joke that I might be a robot.

对。

Right.

这意味着这个品牌形象正在出现裂痕。

Which means there's the brand is cracking.

看得出来。

Could see.

正在渗透出来。

It's seeping through.

但我的意思是，从这个角度来说，我觉得没有理由认为聊天机器人不能制造出一种人性化、有感知力的品牌形象。

But I mean, in that sense, I just I think I don't see a reason why chatbots can't manufacture the brand of being human, of being sentient.

我的意思是，这确实是图灵测试，但更像是多人图灵测试。

I mean, that is the Turing test, but it's like the multiplayer Turing test.

现在实际上已经有相当多的聊天机器人通过了图灵测试，我觉得这至少还要再提升两个层次。

Now that actually a fair number of chatbots have passed the Turing test, I'd say there's at least two steps up.

对吧？

Right?

一个是多人图灵测试，即聊天机器人之间互相对话。

One is a multiplayer Turing test where you have chatbots talking to each other.

然后你问：你能区分出 n 个聊天机器人彼此对话、在应用里点击按钮之类的行为，和 n 个真人做这些事之间的区别吗？

And then you ask, can you determine the difference between n chatbots talking to each other and clicking buttons and stuff in apps and n humans doing that?

我觉得我们还差得很远，或者我不该说差得很远。

And I think we're very far off or I shouldn't say very far off.

至少，我不知道在时间上我们还差多远，但在一群 n 个聊天机器人的数字输出看起来像一群 n 个真人这一点上，我们仍然差距很大。

At least, I don't know how far off we are in terms of time, but we're still far off in terms of a group of n chatbots looking like their digital output is like the group of n humans.

从图灵测试到多人图灵测试。

Like, from the Turing test to the multiplayer Turing test.

这是一种定义。

That's one definition.

另一种定义是能够无缝替换，而不仅仅是让一个普通人相信在短暂的互动中这是个人类。

Another definition is to be able to kind of swap in, and you're not just convincing one human that this is a human for a small session.

你要让所有人类都相信，这在长期的互动中就是一个人类。

You're convincing all humans that this is a human for end sessions.

远程工作实际上让这一点成为可能。

Remote work actually makes this possible.

对吧？

Right?

这是另一种多玩家图灵测试的定义，本质上是一个完全自动化的聊天机器人，作为智能代理为你赚钱，能够去申请远程工作之类的任务。

That's another definition of a multiplayer Turing test where basically you have a chatbot that's fully automated that is earning money for you as an intelligent agent on a computer that's able to go and get remote work jobs and so on.

我会认为这是下一个层次，对吧？

I would consider that next level, right?

如果你能拥有一个足够胜任的东西，因为计算机上的一切都可以被自动化。

If you could have something that was like that, that was competent enough to because everything on a computer can be automated.

literally 你可以完全放手，就像自动驾驶一样，你可以实现自主学习。

Literally you could be totally hands free just like autonomous driving, you could have autonomous learning.

作为一个挑战性问题，如果你是微软或苹果，并且合法地拥有操作系统访问权限，就像苹果说的：‘你能给我这个事件的详细信息吗？’

As a challenge problem, if you were Microsoft or Apple and you had legitimate access to the operating system, just like Apple says, can you send me details of this event?

一个去中心化的系统理论上可以记录成千上万、甚至百万用户的操作行为。

A decentralized thing could in theory log you know, the actions of 10,000 or a 100,000 or a million people.

结合加密货币，你甚至可以监控这台电脑上的钱包，观察哪些长期操作序列导致了这个数字余额的增减。

And with cryptocurrency, you can even monitor a wallet that was on that computer, and you could see, you know, what long run series of actions were increasing or decreasing this digital balance.

你明白我的意思吗？

You see what I'm saying?

是的。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

所以，至少从概念上讲，这会变得极具侵入性，也会带来隐私问题等等。

So you start to get, at least conceptually, it'd be invasive and and, you know, there'd be a privacy issue and so on.

从概念上讲，你可以想象一个代理，它能学习人类哪些行为导致了其本地加密货币余额的增加。

Conceptually, you could imagine an agent that could learn what actions humans were doing that resulted in the increase of their local cryptocurrency balance.

明白吗？

Okay?

嗯。

Mhmm.

也许有更好的方式来表述它，但我认为一个具有挑战性的问题是，从图灵测试走向一个真正智能的代理，它能真正为你赚钱。

There may be better ways to formulate it, but that I would consider a challenge problem is to go from the Turing test to a genuine intelligent agent that can actually go and make money for you.

如果你能做到这一点，那就非同小可了。

If you can do that, that's a big deal.

人们当然已经有交易机器人之类的东西了，但那将是下一个层次。

People obviously have trading bots and stuff, but that would be, you know, the next level.

它在打邮件。

It's typing out emails.

它在创建文档。

It's creating documents.

实际上，它是

It's actually So

完全模仿人类行为。

mimic human behavior in its entirety.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

它还能安排Zoom会议。

And it can it'll schedule Zooms.

它会发送邮件。

It'll send emails.

它会本质上做到这一点，因为如果你仔细想想，人类就是敲键盘、点击鼠标，但就像自动驾驶汽车一样，方向盘会自己转动。

It'll essentially because if you think about it, a human is hitting the keys and clicking the mouse, but just like a self driving car, the wheel rotates by itself.

对吧？

Right?

这些按键实际上就像是苹果系统里的自动化应用。

Those keys are effectively just it's like a like the automator app in in Apple.

对吧？

Right?

所有东西都在屏幕上移动。

Everything is just moving on the screen.

你看到的那些，其实只是人工智能。

You're seeing it there, and it's just an AI.

我觉得很搞笑的是，那个‘我不是机器人’的点击验证居然真的管用。

It's kinda hilarious that the I'm not a robot click thing

嗯。

Mhmm.

它真的有效。

Actually works.

因为说实话，我其实不知道

Because I I I actually don't know

这到底是怎么发生的？

How how that's happening?

它是如何工作的，但我认为这与鼠标移动、时间间隔有关，他们知道，目前对于机器人来说，要模仿人类点击那个小复选框的方式是非常困难的。

How it works, but I think it has to do with the movement of the mouse, the timing, and they know that it's very difficult for currently for a bot to mimic human behavior in the way they would click that little checkbox.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我认为这是一堆高度混淆的 JavaScript，我的记忆是，它看起来像是一个非常简单的方框，但实际上在后台做了很多事，并收集了各种各样的行为数据。

I think it's something I mean, again, my recollection on that is it's like a pile of highly obfuscated JavaScript with all kind it looks like a very simple box, but it's doing a lot of stuff and it's collecting all kinds of instrumentation.

而且，没错，就像机器人太过于确定性了，或者即使加入噪声，也只是高斯噪声。

And, yeah, exactly like a like a robot is just a little too deterministic, or if it's got noise, it's like Gaussian noise.

而人类的做法是，过去没有收集成千上万条人类操作轨迹的话，根本无法模拟。

And the way humans do it is just not something that you'd used to be able to do without collecting thousands and thousands and thousands of human traces doing it.

但这确实是一种猎物与捕食者之间的博弈。

But it is a predator prey on that.

说吧。

Go ahead.

然后，计算机或者

Well, and then the computer Or

数百万条人类行为轨迹。

millions of human traces.

我不知道。

I don't know.

计算机只看到JavaScript。

The computer just sees the JavaScript.

它需要能够超越模拟环境进行观察。

It needs to be able to look outside the simulation.

对计算机来说，世界就是这样。

For the computer, the world is like Right.

计算机并不了解物理世界。

Doesn't the computer doesn't know about the physical world.

所以它必须跳出自己的世界，反观这个简单的盒子。

So it has to look outside of its world and introspect back on this simple box.

对。

Right.

这恰恰就是蘑菇或者致幻剂所做的——让你跳出去，再回头看进来。

It's which is kind of, you know I think that's exactly what mushrooms do or like psychedelics, is you get to go outside and look back in.

这正是计算机需要做的。

That's what a computer needs to do.

我不禁怀疑，它们究竟是真正给人带来了洞见，还是仅仅给了人一种洞见的错觉。

I I, you know, I do wonder whether they actually give people insight or whether they give people the illusion of insight.

这有区别吗？

Is there a difference?

是的。

Yeah.

因为真正的洞见，你知道，真正的洞见就像麦克斯韦方程组那样。

Because well, actual insight, you know, actual insight is, again, Maxwell's equations.

你能用它来改变世界。

You're you're able to shift the world with that.

有很多实用的设备是有效的。

There's a lot of practical devices that work.

幻觉式的洞察就是我自认为是耶稣基督，但什么都没发生。

The illusion of insight is I'm Jesus Christ and nothing happens.

对吧？

Right?

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

我觉得这两者差别很大。

I think those are quite different.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得在这件事上，你可以先假装直到你真的做到了，而从某种意义上说，洞察就是揭示一个一直存在的真相。

I I I think you can fake it till you make it on that one, which is insight in some sense is revealing a truth that was there all along.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，我想我指的是技术性洞察，就是你有这种东西，你知道，我们其实之前在播客开始前就讨论过，技术真相与政治真相的区别。

So, I mean, I guess, like, I'm talking about technical insight where you you have this is the thing, you know, we were talking about actually before the podcast, like technical truths versus political truths.

对吧？

Right?

有些真相是处于一个连续谱上的。

Some truths, they're they're on a spectrum.

还有一些真相完全是政治性的，意思是，如果你能改变足够多人脑海中的软件，你就能改变真相的价值。

And there's some truths that are actually entirely political in the sense that if you can change the software in enough people's heads, you change the the value of the truth.

例如，边境的位置实际上是足够大群体之间的共识。

For example, the location of a border is effectively consensus between large enough groups of people.

谁是首席执行官？

Who is the CEO?

这你知道，是一群人之间的共识。

That's, you know, consensus among a certain group of people.

货币或任何股票的价值是什么？

What is the value of a currency or any stock?

对吧？

Right?

那个市场价格只是一群人心理的反映。

That that market price is just the psychology of a bunch of people.

换句话说，如果你能改变足够多人的想法，你就能改变边境的位置、等级制度的结构，或者货币的价值。

Like, literally, if you can change enough people's minds, you can change the value of the border or the position of the hierarchy or the value of the currency.

这些完全是政治性的真实。

Those are purely political truths.

而在另一端，则是技术性的真实，它们独立于任何个人或全体人类的想法而存在，比如引力常数或病毒的直径。

Then all the way on the other end are technical truths that exist independent of whatever any one human or all humans think, like the gravitational constant or the diameter of a virus.

这些真实独立于人类的思维而存在。

Those exist independent of the human mind.

改变足够多的人的想法也无济于事。

Change enough human minds doesn't matter.

这些是保持不变的。

Those remain constant.

你有一些有趣处于中间地带的事物，加密货币试图将越来越多的东西从政治真理的领域拉入技术真理的领域，他们说：好吧，我们唯一的社会共识是，如果你持有一定数量的比特币，或者你持有这个私钥，你就拥有这个比特币。

You have things that are interestingly in the middle where cryptocurrency has tried to pull more and more things from the domain of political truths into technical truths where they say, okay, the one social convention we have is that if you hold this amount of Bitcoin or that if you hold this private key, you hold this Bitcoin.

然后我们让这一点很难改变，因为你必须改变大量的技术真理。

And then we make that very hard to change because you have to change a lot of technical truths.

所以你可以把某些东西推向这个有趣的中间地带。

So you you can push things to this interesting intermediate zone.

问题是，我们能将多少世界的部分推入这个中间地带？

The the question is how how how much of our world can we push into that?

对。

Right.

这把我们带入了一段非线性的、引人入胜的旅程，回到我一开始想问你的问题：你提到的政治世界，即政治真理的世界。

And that takes us in a nonlinear fascinating journey to the question I wanted to ask you in the beginning, which is this political world that you mentioned in the world of political truth.

正如我们在二十世纪和二十一世纪初所了解的那样，你认为政府哪些方面运作良好，哪些方面出了问题？

As we know it in the twentieth century, in the early twenty first century, what do you think works well, and what is broken about government?

根本问题是，我们无法轻易且和平地建立新的自愿性政府。

The fundamental thing is that we can't easily and peacefully start new opt in governments.

而且

And

就像初创政府一样。

Like startup governments.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如今你可以创办一家新公司，建立一个新社区，甚至创建一种新货币。

And what I mean by that is basically you can start a new company, you can start a new community, you can start a new currency even these days.

你不必通过决斗击败前任CEO来创办一家新公司。

You don't have to beat the former CEO in a duel to start a new company.

你也不必成为世界银行行长才能创建一种新货币。

You don't have to become head of the World Bank to start a new currency.

因此，是的，如果你愿意，你可以加入，比如说微软或者GameStop这样的公司，尝试去改革它。

Because of this, yes, if you can if if you're if you want to, you can join, I don't know, Microsoft or name some company that's GameStop, and you can try to reform it.

明白吗？

Okay?

或者你可以自己创建一个。

Or you can start your own.

这两种选择都存在的事实意味着，你可以从零开始，这正是我们拥有一张白纸的原因。

And the fact that both options exist mean that you can actually just start from scratch, that's just the same reason we have a clean piece of paper.

我实际上在《网络国家》这本书中提到过这一点。

I mentioned this actually in the Network State book.

我来引用这段话：我们希望能够和平地建立一个新的国家，原因和我们希望拥有一块未开发的土地、一张空白的纸、一个空的文本缓冲区、一块干净的防水布或一张清零的 slate 一样——因为我们希望在没有历史束缚的情况下构建新事物。

I'll just quote this bit, but we wanna be able to start a new state peacefully for the same reason we want a bare plot of Earth, a blank sheet of paper, an empty text buffer, a fresh tarp, or a clean slate because we wanna build something new without historical constraint.

对吧？

Right?

同样的道理，当你点击加号新建文档时，就是这个意思。

For the same reason, you hit plus and do docs dot new, you know, like create a new doc.

原因是一样的。

It's for the same reason.

对吧？

Right?

因为你不想按退格键。

Because you don't want to backspace.

你不想只有128字节的空间、128千字节，然后必须先删除旧文档才能创建新文档。

You don't want to have just like a 128 bytes of space, 128 kilobytes, and just have to backspace the old document before creating a new one.

所以这是当今政府根本性的问题，这是一个元层面的观点。

So that's a fundamental thing that's wrong with today's governments, and it's a meta point.

对吧？

Right?

因为这不是任何一项具体的改革。

Because it's not any one specific reform.

而是一种能够建立新国家的元改革。

It's a meta reform of being able to start new countries.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是一个问题，但你也可以反驳说，这其实是一个优点，因为很多人认为传统具有力量。

So that's one problem, but there you know, you could push back and say that's that's a feature because, you know, a lot of people argue that tradition has power.

经过一代代的传承，如果你长期坚持做一件事——就像我看婚姻那样——其中的挣扎与历程本身就有价值，你们会在其中共同成长，发展出共同的理念。

Through generation, if you try a thing long enough, which is the way I see marriage, there's value to the struggle and the journey you take through the struggle and you grow and you develop ideas together.

你们在智力上、哲学上共同成长，这就是跨越世代的国家的理念：传统不断演进，努力接近真理，虽未必能抵达，但能一代代地逐步靠近。

You grow intellectually, philosophically together, and that's the idea of a nation that spans generations, that you have a tradition that becomes more that that strives towards the truth and is able to arrive there or no, not arrive, but take steps towards there through the generations.

所以你可能并不想不断建立新的政府。

So you you may not want to keep starting new governments.

你可能更愿意坚持旧的体制，一步一步地改进它。

You may want to stick to the old one and improve it one step at a time.

所以，婚姻中出现争吵并不意味着你就该离婚，去下载Tinder，开始四处约会。

So just because you're having a fight inside a marriage doesn't mean you should get a divorce and go on Tinder and start dating around.

这就是反驳的观点。

That's the that's the pushback.

这是否真的是一个显著的优势，并不那么明显，没错。

It's it's not obvious that this is a strong feature to have Sure.

为了建立新的政府。

In order to launch new governments.

关于这个问题，有几种不同的攻击角度、辩论方式等等。

There's several different kind of lines of attack or or debate or whatever on this.

对吧？

Right?

首先，传统确实有其价值，人们常说这是林迪效应。

First is, yes, there's obviously value to tradition, and, you know, people say this is Lindy and that's Lindy.

它已经被证明了很长时间，等等。

It's been proven for a long time and so on.

但传统与创新之间当然存在张力。

But of course, there's a tension between tradition and innovation.

比如，登月就不是林迪效应。

You know, like, going to the moon wasn't Lindy.

但它真的很了不起。

Just it was awesome.

而且，你知道，人工智能是非常新的东西。

And, you know, like, artificial intelligence is something that's very new.

新是好事。

New is good.

对吧？

Right?

这其实也是人类自身内部的一种张力，因为你知道，人类的历史远比这些国家要悠久得多。

And this is a tension within humanity actually itself because you know it's way older than all of these nations.

我的意思是，人类已经有数万年的历史了。

I mean, humans are tens of thousands of years old.

人类的答案则有数百万年的历史。

Answers to humans are millions of years old.

对吧？

Right?

如果你回溯得足够久，我们今天所熟知的定居农民和士兵，其实如果要真正传统的话，我们原本是游猎采集者，四处迁徙，没有国界之类的。

And you go back far enough, and the time that we know today of the sessile farmer and soldier is if you go back far enough, you want to be truly traditional, well, we're actually sent from hunter gatherers who are mobile and wandered the world, and there weren't borders and so on.

他们想去哪儿就去哪儿。

They kind of went where they want.

人们曾对骨骼等进行过历史重建，许多人报告称，转向农业和定居生活导致身高下降、牙齿腐烂等问题，这些都体现在骨骼上。

And people had done historical reconstructions of skeletons and stuff like that, and many folks report that the transition to agriculture and being sessile resulted diminution of height, people had tooth decay and stuff like that, the skeletons.

人们用自由换取了稳定。

People had traded off upside for stability.

国家就是这样的，那些定居型社会就是如此。

That's what the state was, that was what these sessile kinds of things were.

当然，他们更有可能持续生存下去。

Now of course, they had more likelihood of living consistently.

你可以支持更大的人口规模，但生活质量却降低了。

You could support larger population sizes, but it had lower quality of life.

因此，狩猎采集者或许正是我们集体记忆中的伊甸园——在那里，人们就像蜘蛛天生知道如何织网、海狸天生知道如何筑坝一样，有些人认为，整个伊甸园的故事，其实是一种内置的神经网络记忆，回溯到定居之前的时代，那时人们可以自由漫游，随手采摘果实，人口密度很低。

And so the hunter gatherer, maybe that's actually our collective recollection of a Garden of Eden where people just like a spider knows innately how to build webs or a beaver knows how to build dams, You know, some people theorize that the entire Garden Of Eden is like a sort of built in neural network recollection of this pre sessile era where you're able to roam around, just pick off fruits and so on, low population density.

所以，我想我们正在见证的是版本三。

So the point is that I think what we're seeing is a v three.

你从狩猎采集者转变为农民和士兵，定居社会出现了，有了国界等等，再到所谓的v3阶段，即数字游民，新的狩猎采集者。

You go from the hunter gatherer to the farmer and soldier, the sessile, nations are here and they've got borders and so on, to kind of the v three which is the digital nomad, the new hunter gatherer.

我们正在回归未来，因为你知道，比国家更古老的是无国家状态。

We're going back to the future because you know what's even older than nations is no nations.

比传统更传统的，是国际性。

Even more traditional than tradition is being international.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们实际上是在唤醒人类另一条宏大的脉络——探索、开拓、漫游、创新的渴望，你知道的？

And so we're actually tapping into that other huge thread in humanity, which is the desire to explore, pioneer, wander, innovate, you know?

我认为这很重要。

And I think that's important.

让美国再次伟大，就是将其彻底溶解于虚无之中。

To make America great again is to dissolve it completely in into oblivion.

不。

No.

这只是一个笑话。

It's a joke.

我明白了。

I see.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我知道这是个笑话。

I know it's a joke.

但关键是

But the thing

好吧，幽默。

well Humor.

我正在学一件新事。

I'm learning this new thing.

是的。

Yes.

机器人的一项新功能。

A new thing for the robot.

那个地方的聊天机器人模拟还没有完全正常工作。

The chatbot emulation isn't fully working there.

对。

Yeah.

故障。

Glitch.

就是在测试版里的那个地方。

That's where in the in the beta.

让我再说一件事，你知道，世界上每个人都可以。

And let me just say say one other thing about this, which is, you know, there are I mean, everybody in the world to okay.

比如说，我不知道具体百分比。

Let's say, I don't know what percentage.

我们假设，在美国的政治讨论中，有99.99%甚至接近这个数字的精力都集中在试图修复现有体制上。

Let's say 99.99%, or it's rounds to that number, of political discourse in The US focuses on trying to fix the system.

如果那些人——我的意思是，只有0.1%的精力用于构建一个新体系，这看起来不就是一种相当不错的投资策略吗？

If those folks I mean, point o 1% of the energy is going towards building a new system, that seems like a pretty good portfolio strategy, right?

难道100%的精力都该用来修改两百多年前写下的这套代码吗？

Or 100% are supposed to go and edit this code base from two hundred something years ago.

我的意思是，世界上最美国化的事情，就是离开自己的国家，去寻找更好的生活。

I mean, the most American thing in the world is going and leaving your country in search of a better life.

美国是由开国元勋们在两百年前建立的。

America was founded two hundred years ago by the founding fathers.

它不仅仅是一个移民国家，它就是一个移民国家。

It's not just a nation of immigrants, it's a nation of immigrants.

对吧？

Right?

从其他国家移民到美国，以及美国国内的迁徙流动。

Emigration from other countries to The US and actually also immigration within The US.

有一个非常棒的YouTube视频，叫‘美国50个州的人口变化’，时间从1790年到2050年，里面有个模拟动画。

There's an amazing YouTube video called it's like 50 states US population, I think seventeen ninety to it says twenty fifty, so they've got a simulation.

你只要暂停在2019年或2020年就行了。

So you just stop it at twenty nineteen or twenty twenty.

但它显示，弗吉尼亚州早期曾排名第一，后来逐渐落后，而纽约州则崛起。

But it shows that, like, Virginia was, like, number one early on, and then it lost ground and, like, New York gained.

嗯。

Mhmm.

19世纪早期，俄亥俄州非常重要，被称为‘总统之父’，出了很多总统，后来伊利诺伊州和印第安纳州也变得重要。

And then, like, Ohio was a big deal in the early eighteen hundreds, and it was, like, father of presidents in general, all these presidents, and later Illinois and Indiana.

加利福尼亚州真正崛起是在20世纪，尤其是大萧条时期；而我们现在正进入一个新时代，佛罗里达州和德克萨斯州崛起，纽约州和加利福尼亚州则相对下滑。

And then California only really came up in the the twentieth century, like, during the Great Depression, Now we're entering the modern era where Florida and Texas have risen and New York and California have dropped.

所以，州际竞争其实就像货币之间的竞争。

So interstate competition, it's actually just like inter currency competition.

你有交易对，对吧？

You've got trading pairs, right?

你卖出比特币，买入以太坊。

You sell BTC, buy ETH.

你卖出索拉纳，或者卖出门罗币或Zcash。

You sell, you know, Solana or you know, sell Monero by Zcash.

对吧？

Right?

每一对交易都为你提供了今天某种货币相对于另一种货币是下跌还是上涨的信号。

Each of those trading pairs gives you signal for today on this currency is down or up relative to this other currency.

同样地，每一对人口迁移——比如有人从纽约搬到俄亥俄，或从俄亥俄搬到加州——都提供了关于各州吸引力的信息。

In the same way, each of those migration pairs, someone goes from New York to Ohio, Ohio to California, gives you information on the desirability of different states.

你可以随着时间推移，像构建链接矩阵一样，构建这样的配对矩阵。

You can literally form a pairs matrix like this over time, very much like the link matrix.

这在很大程度上塑造了美国。

That's shaped America in a huge way.

所以你会问，A，这个由比我们更年轻的人所建立的移民国家——顺便说一句，开国元勋们常常只有二十多岁——他们认同‘理念国家’的概念，催生了一个由创始人和开拓者组成的国家，这些人甚至真的登上了月球，对吧？

And so you ask, a, if if this nation of immigrants that was founded by men younger than us, by the way, the founding fathers were often in their twenties, right, who, you know, endorse the concept of proposition nation, who've given rise to a country of founders and pioneers who've literally gone to the moon, right?

那些人会认为这是历史的终结，就这样了，我们已经完成了。

Those folks would think that this is the end of history, that that's it, we're done.

我们已经做完了所有其他事情。

We've done everything else.

我的意思是，科技界有些人相信——我也同意——我们能去火星。

I mean there's people in technology who believe, and I agree with them, that we can go to Mars.

也许我们能终结死亡，但我们却无法对一个已有230年历史的东西进行创新，你知道的。

There might be able to end death, but we can't innovate on something that was 230 years old, you know.

所以确实需要找到一个平衡点。

So there is a balance certainly to to strike.

不过，美国的实验依然令人着迷。

The the American experiment is fascinating, nevertheless.

所以你可以提出一个观点，即我们其实才刚刚进入这个v2的初期阶段。

So one argument you can make is actually that we're in the very early days of this v two.

如果你所说的v2是这样，那你可以认为我们还没准备好进入v3，我们只是刚刚在努力搞清楚v2这件事。

If this so what you describe as v two, you could make the case that we're not ready for v three, that we're just actually trying to figure out the v two thing.

你其实是在试图，比如，

You're trying to, like,

跳过？我们什么时候才算是准备好了？

skip When are we ever ready?

现在，我们再回到婚姻和生孩子这类事情上。

Now, again, we'll go back to marriage, I think, and and having kids kind of thing.

我认为，所有有了孩子的人，从来都没有真正准备好当父母。

I think everyone who has kids is never really ready to be kids.

这正是关键所在。

That's the whole point.

你直接投入进去。

You dive in.

好的。

Okay.

但你说过你不能看下去，除了我们目前所知的政府之外，还有哪些其他批评意见？在我们大致勾勒出v3的想法之前，我想听听。

But the I mean, you you mentioned that you can't watch is there other criticisms of government that you can provide as we know it today before we kinda outline the ideas of of v three?

我们还是专注于V2吧。

Let's stick to v two.

我来举几个例子。

I'll give a few.

对吧？

Right?

所以这些内容都会纳入这个版本，我有一本书叫《网络国家》，它涉及了一些这些话题。

And so a lot of this stuff will go into the version so I've got, you know, this book, The Network which which covers some of these topics.

《网络国家》有副标题吗？

Does Network State have a subtitle?

它就是《网络国家：如何创建一个新国家》。

It it is The Network State, How to Start a New Country.

如何创建一个新国家。

How to Start a New Country.

但我只是把它放在thenetworkstate.com上。

And but I just have it at thenetworkstate.com.

我应该说对。

I should say Yeah.

这是一本你应该买的优秀书籍。

It's an excellent book that you should get.

我是在Kindle上读的，但还有一个网站。

I read it on Kindle, but there's also a website.

巴拉吉说他一直在不断改进和修改它。

And Balaji said that he's constantly working on improving it, changing it.

等到整个项目完成时，这本书会和最初大不相同了，对吧。

By by by the by the time the whole project is over, it'll be a different book than it was Yeah.

刚开始的时候。

In the beginning.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

它总是在不断蜕去旧的外壳。

It's always shedding its old skin.

嗯，我想先发布一些内容，收集反馈之类的，就像一个应用一样。

Well, I I wanted to get something out there and get feedback and and whatnot, just like an app.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，你面对的是两个极端：应用是高度动态的，你习惯了不断更新；而书本本应是静态的。

You know, you, again, you have these two poles of an app is highly dynamic, and you're you're accustomed to having updates all the time, and a book is supposed to be static.

而静态、不变的东西也有其价值。

And there's a value in something static, something unchanged and and so on.

但在这个案例中，我很高兴我发布了1.0版本，接下来的版本，我会暂时拆分成动机理论和实践两部分。

But in this case, I'm glad I kinda shipped a version one point o, and, you know, the the next version, you know, I'm gonna split into, like, tentatively motivation theory and practice.

比如，动机部分：是什么政治哲学促使我做这件事，你可以选择接受或忽略。

Like, motivation, like, what is the sort of political philosophy and so on that motivates me at least to do this, which you can take or leave.

对吧？

Right?

然后是理论部分，解释为什么网络国家现在成为可能，我稍后可以定义它。

And then theory as to why network state is now possible, and I can define it in a second.

而实践部分则包含数不清的实际细节，从道路建设、外交承认到资金筹措、成立机构等等所有这些事情。

And then the practice is zillions of practical details and everything from roads, diplomatic recognition, and so on, funding, founding, all that stuff.

实际上，很多内容我都没放进第一版，因为我只想先让大家看到它的吸引力，然后再讨论可行性。

A lot of stuff actually I left out of v one simply because I wanted to kind of get the desirability of it on the table and then talk about the the feasibility and

我应该就我们可以革新的一些方面多说几句。

I should actually linger on that briefly in in terms of things we can revolutionize.

比如，我认为特斯拉在汽车理念上最大的创新，不是自动驾驶或电动化，而是其他方面。

Like, one of the biggest innovations I think that Tesla does with the way they think about the car, with the deploy the car is not the automation or the electric to me.

是远程软件更新。

It's the over the air updates.

是的。

Mhmm.

对。

Right.

能够即时推送软件更新，彻底改变汽车的行为和用户体验。

Be able to send instantaneously updates to the software that completely changes the behavior, the UX, everything about the car.

所以我认为这会很有趣，因为书籍是人类知识的体现，是人类知识的一个快照。

And so I do think it'll be interesting because books are representation of human knowledge, a a snapshot of human knowledge.

如果我们能想出一种系统，让书籍也能像 GitHub 那样运作，那将会很有趣。

And it'll be interesting that we if we can somehow figure out a system that allows you to do sort of like a GitHub for books.

比如，我在亚马逊买了一本书，不用再付钱，就能获得更新，比如 1.1 版、1.2 版，还有发布说明？

Like, if I buy a book on Amazon without having to pay again, can I get updates, like v point v 1.1, v 1.2, and there's, like, release notes?

对。

Right.

那将会非常了不起。

That that would be that would be incredible.

光出第二版、第三版是不够的，我们需要的是小幅度的更新——这些更新不仅出现在你的网站上，还要真正融入我们购买书籍的机制中。

It's not not enough to do like a second edition or a third edition, but like minor updates that's not just on your website, but actually go into the the model that we use to buy books.

对。

Right.

所以我花了钱。

So I spend my money.

也许我会推出一项每月5美元的订阅服务，让我能定期获得书籍的更新。

Maybe I'll do a subscription service for $5 a month where I get regular updates to the books.

这样一来，作者就有动力去更新他们的书籍，使订阅变得合理，这意味着你的书不再只是一个快照，而是一项终身的工程。

And then there's an incentive for authors to actually update their books such that it makes sense for the subscription, and then that means your book isn't just a snapshot, but is a lifelong project.

是的。

Right.

所以要对这本书足够用心。

So care enough about the book.

所以我认为那里还有很多可以做的，因为实际上，在这个过程中，我做得最传统的事就是自己在Kindle上发布电子书。

So I think there's a lot that can be done there because actually, in going through this process, in many ways, the most traditional thing I did was self publish ebook on Kindle.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

为什么？

Why?

因为如果你真的和出版社签了合同，他们首先会给你一笔预付款。

Because basically, if you actually ink a deal with a book publisher, first they'll give you some advance.

我不需要那笔预付款之类的。

I didn't need the advance or anything.

但第二点是各种限制。

But second is all these constraints.

你想翻译成某种语言，或者要做其他格式，或者想更新内容，都得去找另一个合作方沟通。

Oh, you want to translate into this, or you want to do this other format, or you want to update it, you have to go and now talk to this other party.

对吧？

Right?

你知道的。

You know?

而且他们实际愿意出版的内容范围也越来越窄。

And also the the narrowing window of what they'll actually publish, it gets narrower and narrower.

你在推特上看到很多青少年小说的崩溃事件，但情况远不止这些。

You see all these, you know, meltdowns of very young adult novels and stuff on Twitter, but it's it's it's more than that.

所以，拥有一个亚马逊页面，就像是在标记这本书确实存在。

So, you know, actually having an Amazon page, it's just like a marker that a book exists.

是的。

Mhmm.

明白吗？

Okay?

现在我有了一个入口，如果有人觉得‘我喜欢这条推文，但我想知道这个想法是从第三章中间来的，该怎么找到它’。

And now I've got an entry point where if someone says, okay, I like this tweet, but how do I kinda get the that that might be a concept from like the middle of chapter three.

对吧？

Right?

我该怎么从头到尾找到这本书呢？

How do I get the thing from front to back?

我可以直接让他们去 networkstate.com，这就是一个重要的入口点，对吧？你提到了订阅、金钱等等，现在人们确实会为在线内容付费，比如通讯简报之类的。

I can just point them at the networkstate.com, that is import this, right, this one entry point, okay, and you mentioned like subscription and and and money and so and so forth, and I people are paying for content online now with newsletters and so on.

但我选择了一直免费提供，而且我希望它能免费，或者你可以在亚马逊上购买Kindle版本，因为你总得为它定个价格。

But I've chosen to, and I will always have the thing free, and I want it on or you can get the Kindle version on Amazon simply because you have to kind of set a price for that.

但接下来我们要做 it.com，我想让它在每部安卓手机上都能优化运行，这样印度、拉丁美洲或尼日利亚的人就可以直接点击打开。

But then we're gonna it.com, what I wanna do is have that optimized for every Android phone so people in India or Latin America or Nigeria can just tap and open it.

我们会做翻译之类的操作。

Gonna do translations and stuff like that.

AllSpace VR 的格雷格·福多尔，你知道的，AllSpace VR 的创始人，他卖掉了这家公司，然后重做了网站。

Greg Fodor of AllSpace VR, you know, founder of AllSpace VR, you know, he he sold that and he codered the website.

我和他一起做过这个项目，还有另一位设计师叫埃利亚胡。

And, you know, I worked with him on it, there's another designer who Elijah.

这基本上就是一个三人小团队。

And it's basically just a three person group.

我们原本觉得做得还不错，但让我特别惊喜的是，之后有这么多人主动联系我们，问我们能不能把创建这个网站的软件开源。

And we thought we had something pretty nice, but one thing I was really pleasantly surprised by is how many people got in touch with us afterwards and asked us if we could open source the software to create this this website.

对吧？

Right?

因为实际上你可以在手机上试用。

Because it's actually you can try it on mobile.

我认为在某些方面，这比Kindle的体验更好。

I think it's actually, in some ways a better experience than Kindle.

这很有趣，因为我确实把网站看作是这种书籍应用概念的第一个版本。

And so that was interesting because I do think of the website as like a v one version of this concept of a book app.

对吧？

Right?

举个例子，想象一下，如果你拥有《圣经》，十诫不仅仅是以文字形式呈现，而是包含一个清单，还能连接到一个基督教社群，实践本身也融入其中。

For example, imagine if you have the Bible and the 10 Commandments aren't just text, but there's a checklist and there's a gateway to a Christian community there, and the practice is embedded into the thing.

你知道brilliant.org吗？

Did you know brilliant.org?

是的。

Mhmm.

很棒的网站。

Amazing site.

我喜欢这个网站。

I love this site.

Brilliant基本上是移动端友好的教程，你可以轻松地滑动浏览。

Brilliant is basically mobile friendly tutorials, and you can kind of just swipe through.

你在星巴克排队，或者要上飞机的时候都可以用。

You're in line at Starbucks or getting on a plane or something.

你只需滑动浏览，就能获得非常精美的微课程，而且互动性刚刚好，能让你的大脑活跃起来，进行问题解决。

You just swipe through and just get really nice micro lessons on things, and it's just interactive enough that your brain is working and you're problem solving.

有时候你需要一点纸笔，但这种移动端友好、持续学习的模式，我很想在这方面多做些探索。

And sometimes you'll need a little pen and paper, but that format of very mobile friendly just continuous learning, I I I'd like to do a lot more with that.

所以，这就是我们打算在图书应用上走的方向。

And so that's kind of where we're gonna go with the the book app.

你们在做至少第一版图书时，有很多有趣的设计，比如有一句总结、一段摘要、TLDR，还有一张图片总结，我觉得这甚至跟注意力时长无关。

So the there's a lot of fun stuff about the way you did at least v one of the book, which is you have, like, a one sentence summary, one paragraph summary, TLDR, and, like, one image summary, which is I think, honestly, it's not even about a short attention span.

这其实是一个非常好的练习，帮助你进行总结和提炼，没错。

It's a really good exercise about summarization, condensation, Yes.

它真正帮助你思考：什么是关键洞见。

Really, helping you think through what is the key insight.

就像我们提到过的质数迷宫，它揭示了人类处境的核心——即与我们思维局限的抗争。

Like, we mentioned the the prime number maze that reveals something central to the human condition, which is struggling against the limitation of our of our minds.

同样地，你在书中对网络状态进行了总结。

And in that same way, you summarize the network state in the book.

那我们直接切入这一点吧，我想问你一下。

So let let let's actually jump right there, and let me ask you.

什么是网络状态？

What is the network state?

什么是网络状态？

What is the network state?

我会用一句话来解释，同时也配一张图。

So I'll give it a sentence and also give it an image.

对吧？

Right?

所以，非正式的说法是。

So the informal sentence.

网络状态是一个高度一致的在线社区，具有集体行动的能力，能够在全球范围内众筹领土，并最终获得现有国家的外交承认。

A network state is a highly aligned online community with a capacity for collective action that crowdfunds territory around the world and eventually gains diplomatic recognition from preexisting states.

明白吗？

Okay?

我们来逐条分析一下。

So just taking those pieces.

高度一致的在线社区。

Highly aligned online community.

这并不是Facebook。

That is not Facebook.

这也不是Twitter。

That is not Twitter.

人们不会把自己视为Facebook用户或Twitter用户。

People don't think of themselves as Facebookers or Twitterians.

对吧？

Right?

那只是数亿人整天互相争斗的一个集合。

That's just a collection of hundreds of millions of people who just fight each other all day.

对吧？

Right?

这就像一个格斗俱乐部。

It's a fight club.

公司则是高度一致的，当你在公司的Slack上发布一个任务时，在全员会议上，公司Slack里大约100%的人都会去完成它，因此他们在这一点上高度一致。

A company is highly aligned where you'll put a task into the company's Slack and if you do an all hands, about 100% of the people in a company's Slack will do it, so they're highly aligned in that way.

但在线社区通常并不高度一致。

But online communities don't tend to be highly aligned.

在线社区更像是《权力的游戏》粉丝俱乐部那样的东西。

Online communities tend to be like a Game of Thrones fan club something like that.

或者在推特账号上，你可能只有0.1%的人参与互动。

Or you know, on a Twitter account, you might get point 1% of people engaging with something.

并不是100%。

It's not the 100%.

如果你把公司的高度一致性与社区的规模结合起来，那就是一个高度一致的在线社区。

If you combine the degree of alignment of a company with the scale of a community, that's like what a highly aligned online community is.

对吧？

Right?

所以，要让一千人或一万人能够共同完成像在推特上一起点赞这样简单的事情。

So to get a thousand or 10,000 people who can collectively do something as simple as just all liking something on Twitter.

例如，他们为什么会这么做？

For example, why would they do that?

他们是一个电气工程师行会。

They're guild of electrical engineers.

他们是一个平面设计师行会。

They're a guild of graphic designers.

这个行会有一千人，每天都有人向行会求助，其他999个人都会帮助他。

And you've got a thousand people in this guild, and every day somebody is asking a favor from the guild, and the other 999 people are helping them out.

例如，我刚启动了一个新项目，或者我想找一份新工作。

For example, I've just launched a new project, or I'd like to get a new job.

有人能帮我一下吗？

Can somebody help me?

诸如此类。

And so on.

所以你付出是为了得到。

And so you kind of give to get.

你在帮助社区里的其他人，这样逐渐积累善意，然后有时又会用掉它。

You're helping other people in the community, and you're kind of building up karma this way, and then sometimes you spend it down.

像 Stack Overflow 就有这样的善意经济。

Like Stack Overflow has this karma economy.

它并不是为了从中赚取巨额利润而设计的内部经济。

It's not meant to be an internal economy that is like making tons and tons of money off of.

它更像是记分系统。

It's sort of the keep score.

对吧？

Right?

这一点在社区层面高度一致。

That's a highly aligned on the community part.

至于集体行动的能力，我刚才已经简单描述过了：至少，如果没有一千人，你发一条推文却没人转推或点赞，那你就谈不上一个高度一致的在线社区。

Then capacity for collective action, I just kind of described that, which is at a minimum, you you don't have a highly aligned online community unless you have a thousand people and you paste in a tweet and a thousand of them RT it or or like it.

明白吗？

Okay?

如果你连这点都做不到，那你就什么都没有。

If you can't even get that, you don't have something.

如果你能做到这一点，那就至少具备了开展某种集体数字行动的基础，明白吗？

If you do have that, you have the basis for at least collective digital action on something, okay?

你可以把这看作一群活动家。

And you can think of this as a group of activists.

你可以把它想象成，比如我之前提到的行会，但假设他们是一群希望提高人们对“延缓衰老是可能的”这一认知的人。

You can think of it as for example, let's say I mentioned a guild, but let's say they're a group that wants to raise awareness of the fact that life extension is possible.

每天都会有一条新的推文，关于二甲双胍的研究、辛克莱的研究，或者大卫·辛克莱。

Every day there's a new tweet on, I don't know, whether it's metformin research or Sinclair's work or David Sinclair.

安德鲁·休伯曼在这里有一些不错的内容，或者也有专注于长寿领域的风险投资人。

Andrew Huberman has good stuff here, or there's a longevity VC.

有很多人正在这个领域工作。

There's a bunch of folks working in this area.

每天都有新的内容出现，而这个在线社区的真正目的就是提高人们对长寿的认知，这一千人中有970人会去点赞，这已经很不错了。

Every day there's something there, and literally the purpose of this online community is raise awareness of longevity, and of the thousand people, 970 go and like that, that's pretty good.

对吧？

Right?

这很扎实。

That's solid.

你已经拥有了一些东西，或者你有了一个聚焦点，对吧？

You've got something or you've got a laser, right?

你有了一个可以专注的方向，因为大部分Web2互联网都像热带雨林一样杂乱。

You've got something which you focus on something because most of the Web2 Internet is in Tropic.

你去Hacker News、Reddit或Twitter，马上就会发现那里充斥着三十件随机的事情。

You go to Hacker News, you go to Reddit, you go to Twitter, and you're immediately struck by the fact that it's like 30 random things.

随机的。

Random.

这就像一盒巧克力。

It's just a box of chocolates.

本该如此。

It's meant to be

有些看着很好吃。

Some of them look delicious.

有些看着很好吃。

Some of them look delicious.

新奇感，我们可能会过度消费新奇感。

Novelty, we can over consume novelty.

我们之前谈到过传统与创新之间的平衡，这里有一个不同的版本：由于新奇感而导致熵朝无数方向扩散， versus 专注。

So we were talking about earlier the balance between tradition and innovation, Here is a different version of that which is entropy going in a ton of different directions due to novelty versus focus.

这就像热能与功的区别。

It's like heat versus work.

热是热带的，而力沿着一段距离作用，你是在朝某个方向前进，对吧？

Heat is and tropic and work force along a distance, you're going in a direction, right?

所以如果下一个版本的 Hacker News 或 Reddit 上那 30 个链接特别精彩，那你就相当于升级了。

And so if those 30 links on the next version of Hacker News or Red or something like so brilliant, it's just that's leveling you up.

你点击的这 30 件事，实际上就是因此获得了一项技能，对吧？

The 30 things you click, you've just gained a skill as a function of that, right?

所以这些在线社区，我不知道它们会是什么样子。

So these kinds of online communities, I don't know what they look like.

它们可能看起来和现在的社交媒体完全不同。

They probably don't look like the current social media.

就像举个例子，我知道这是个元类比，但在 2000 年代，人们以为用于工作的 Facebook 会和 Facebook 一样。

Just like for example, I know this is meta analogy, but in the 2000s people thought Facebook for Work would look like Facebook.

大卫·萨克斯发现了并出售了 Yammer 这家公司，其部分理念正是基于这一点。

And David Sachs found and sold the company Yammer that was partially on their basis.

它还不错。

It was fine.

那是一家价值十亿美元的公司。

Was a billion dollar company.

但适用于工作的Facebook实际上是Slack，对吧？

But Facebook for Work was actually Slack, right?

它的样子不同。

It looked different.

它更注重聊天，而不是图片之类的。

It was more chat focused, it was less image focused and whatnot.

一个高度协同的在线社区平台会是什么样子？

What does the platform for a highly aligned online community look like?

我认为Discord是过渡状态，但不是最终形态。

I think Discord is the transitional state, but it's not the end state.

Discord有点聊天导向。

Discord is sort of chatty.

工作并不是在Discord本身完成的，对吧？

The work isn't done in Discord itself, Right?

用于追踪或记录人们贡献的加密货币，确实不是在Discord本身内完成的。

The cryptocurrency for tracking or the Cryptocarma for sure tracking people's contributions is not really done in Discord itself.

Discord并不是为此而设计的。

Discord was not built for that.

是的。

Mhmm.

我不知道这样的用户体验会是什么样子。

And I don't know what that UX looks like.

也许它看起来像任务，你知道，也许它会呈现出不同的形式。

Maybe it looks like tasks, you know, like may maybe it looks something different.

好的。

Okay.

等等。

So wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

让我再仔细想想这个。

Let me linger on this.

当然，实际上可能有些人根本不熟悉 Discord 或 Slack 之类的平台。

Sure, we're actually there's some people might not be even familiar with Discord or Slack or so on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就连这些平台本身也都关联着各自的社群。

Even these platforms have, like, communities associated with them.

意思是，那些了解这些平台功能、知道可以做某些事情的人，构成了一个更大的社群。

Meaning, the the big the, like, the meta community of people who are aware of the feature set and that you can do a thing.

大家知道这是个功能，然后就可以用它来做点什么。

That this is a thing, and then you could do a thing with it.

Discord，当我第一次意识到这一点时，我觉得它起源于游戏界

Discord, like, when I first realized that, I think it was born out of the gaming world

是的

Yes.

这简直太惊人了

Is like, holy shit.

这确实是个东西

This is like a thing.

有很多人使用它

There's a lot of people that use this.

对

Right.

Discord 还有一种非常难以摆脱的文化，这种文化贯穿了 Discord 内的所有不同社区

There's also a culture that's very difficult to escape that's associated with Discord that spans all the different communities within Discord.

Reddit 也是同样的情况

Reddit is the same.

尽管有不同的子版块，但由于迁移现象，Reddit 仍然形成了一种独特的文化。

Even though there's different subreddits, there's still because of the migration phenomenon maybe, there's still a culture to Reddit and so on.

是的。

Yes.

所以我想试着深入探究一下，形成在线社区的因素与这些社区所依托的平台之间有何不同。

So I I I'd like to sort of try to dig in and understand what's the difference between the online communities that are formed and the platforms on which those communities are formed.

当然。

Sure.

很重要。

Important

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It is.

确实如此。

It is.

比如说，一个设计良好的办公室通常会有公共区域，比如餐厅或集会区，而其他每个人则有自己的私人空间，可以在边缘退避。

So for example, an office a good design for an office is frequently you have, you know, the the commons, which is like the lunchroom or the gathering area, then everybody else has a cave on the border they can kind of retreat to.

在公共区域中的私人空间。

Cave in the commons.

顺便说一下，我内心在笑关于热和工作之间的对比。

I love by the way, I was laughing internally about the heat versus work.

我觉得这个说法会一直留在我心里。

I think that's gonna stick with me.

这是看待推特的一种非常有趣的方式。

That's such an interesting way to see Twitter.

是的。

Yeah.

这到底是热度，还是这个帖子本身？因为有很多事情在发生。

Like, is this heat or is this is this thread like, because there's a lot of stuff going on.

对。

Right.

这仅仅是情绪宣泄，还是说我们其实是在做某种有明确目标的、有成效的事情呢？

Is it just heat or we're doing some, like, is it is there a directed thing productive at the end of the day?

没错。

That's right.

我喜欢这个说法，我以前从来没见过，不管怎样，‘公共空间中的私人角落’这个概念真的很棒。

Love is I've never seen I mean, anyway, the cave in the commons is is really nice.

这与一个高效办公空间的布局有关。

So that has to do with the layout of an office that's effective.

没错。

That's right.

因此，你可以把许多类型的社交网络看作处于‘私人角落’与‘公共空间’这一连续体上。

And so you can think of many kinds of social networks as being on the cave and commons continuum.

比如，Twitter 完全就是公共空间。

For example, Twitter is just all commons.

所谓的‘私人角落’只是个人私信或私信线程之类的，但本质上，它主要就是一个巨大的全球性公共争吵场。

The caves are just like individual DMs or DM threads or whatever, but it's really basically just one gigantic global public fight club for the most part.