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接下来是跟罗杰·格雷西的对话，他被广泛认为是史上最伟大的柔术选手。
The following is a conversation with Roger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jiu jitsu competitor of all time.
现在快速提一下每个赞助商。
And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor.
详情请看视频描述。
Check them out in the description.
这是支持本播客最好的方式。
It's the best way to support this podcast.
我们有Bambee提供人力资源服务，Mizzen和MMA提供风格，Blinkist提供非虚构类书籍，还有Athletic Greens提供营养，美味的营养。
We got Bambee for HR services, Mizzen and MMA for style, Blinkist for nonfiction, and Athletic Greens for nutrition, delicious nutrition.
朋友们，要明智选择。
Choose wisely, my friends.
现在开始完整的广告朗读。
And now onto the full ad reads.
一如既往，中间没有广告。
As always, no ads in the middle.
我尽量让这部分有趣，但如果你想跳过，那就跳过吧，心里别有什么遗憾。
I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them if you must sinfully with the regret in your heart, skip them.
你心里不必有遗憾。
You don't have to have regret in your heart.
放下遗憾吧。
Let go of regret.
朋友们，活得没有遗憾。
Live without regret, my friends.
但还是请去看看那些赞助商。
Please still check out the sponsors.
我很喜欢他们的产品。
I enjoy their stuff.
也许你也会喜欢。
Maybe you will too.
本期节目由Bambee赞助，拼写是B-A-M-B-E-E。
This show is brought to you by Bambee, spelled b a m b e e.
这是一个为企业提供的外包和自动化人力资源解决方案。
It's an outsourced and automated human resources solution for businesses.
它的设计初衷是让企业拥有一个专属且成本效益高的人力资源选项，每月只需99美元。
It was built to give businesses a dedicated yet cost effective human resource option at just $99 per month.
经营企业涉及的事情太多了，其中只有一部分是我非常喜欢的。
There's so many things involved in running a business, only some of which I deeply enjoy.
比如创新、工程、细节工程，无论是软件还是硬件、机械、材料，所有这些。
Doing the innovation, the engineering, the details engineering, whether that's software or hardware, mechanical, materials, all of it.
我热爱工程。
I love the engineering.
我热爱早期设计阶段，那时候你正在构思想法。
I love the early design stages when you're coming up with ideas.
我甚至热爱产品设计。
I even love the product design.
所以，制定短期和长期的愿景，思考如何设计东西，如何通过创造酷炫的产品给世界带来快乐，然后大规模地实现它，进行大规模制造，甚至那也超级有趣。
So coming up with a short term and long term vision of how design design things, how how to bring joy to the world by building cool stuff, and then doing that at scale, doing mass manufacturing, even that is super interesting.
但要让这一切运转起来，你得做好那些粘合剂，也就是让公司运转起来的凝聚力，其中很大一部分就是管理员工。
But to make all of that work, you have to do all the sort of the glue, the cohesive chemistry that makes an business run, and a big part of that is managing the people.
毕竟，公司里的所有奇迹都是员工创造的。
It's after all the people that do all the magic in a business.
而管理员工，用英语说就是人力资源。
And managing the people is what's in English called human resources.
所以你得用好的工具，用很棒的工具，最好还是价格实惠、性价比高的工具，而Bambee正是这样的工具。
So you gotta use good tools for the job, great tools for the job, and hopefully affordable, cost effective tools for that job, which is exactly what Bambee is.
你今天就可以预约免费咨询。
You can schedule your free conversation today.
去bambee.com，注册时在播客一栏输入Lex。
Go to bambee.com and type Lex under podcast when signing up.
拼写是b a m b e e。
That's spelled b a m b e e.
本期节目还由Mizzen和MMA赞助，他们生产舒适又时尚的衬衫和其他男装，我现在穿的就是他们的，而且我刚把领子立起来了，因为我现在感觉特别好。
This show is also brought to you by Mizzen and MMA, the maker of comfortable, stylish dress shirts and other menswear that I'm currently wearing, and I just popped my collar, like, just because I'm feeling pretty good about this.
我感觉自己很时尚。
I'm feeling stylish.
我感觉自己很性感。
I'm feeling sexy.
这感觉就像在演《周六夜现场》的小品。
This feels like an SNL skit.
那是什么来着？
What was it?
就是那种，一个人对着镜子做积极自我肯定的时候。
When the guy's, like, looking in the mirror and doing positive affirmations.
我觉得我从来没对着镜子说过，嘿，你今天看起来真性感。
I don't think I've ever looked in the mirror and said, boy, you're looking sexy today.
一旦我开始这么做，我觉得我就快滑向一个我不想去的境地了。
The moment I am, I think I'm on a slippery slope to a place I don't wanna be.
不过话说回来，我显然只是开玩笑而已。
But anyway, so I'm obviously doing it just for jokes.
我觉得穿着很舒服。
I it feels comfortable.
我就是喜欢这种感觉。
I just like the way it feels.
我喜欢它的样子。
I like the way it looks.
我最喜欢穿西装打领带，适合正式场合，或者做比较严肃的事情时，比如播客、演讲，或者我特别认真对待的事情。
My favorite thing to wear is a suit and tie for more formal or for when I'm doing more serious kinds of engagements, like podcasts or presentations, or just something I wanna take super seriously.
最休闲的就是T恤，但介于两者之间的就是衬衫。
And then the most relaxed thing is just a t shirt, but in between that is a dress shirt.
至于衬衫，要舒服又性感的衬衫，我就去Mizzen and Maine买。
And for dress shirts, comfortable, sexy dress shirts, I go to Mizzen and Maine.
我强烈推荐他们。
I highly recommend them.
我显然穿的是黑色衬衫。
I obviously wear a black dress shirt.
现在，你可以享受特别折扣。
Right now, you can get a special discount.
只要去Mizzen and Maine，并使用促销代码Lex。
Just go to Mizzen and MMA and use promo code Lex.
本期节目还由Blinkist赞助，这是我最喜欢的用于学习新事物的应用。
This show is also brought to you by Blinkist, my favorite app for learning new things.
Blinkist从数千本非虚构类书籍中提取关键观点，并将它们浓缩成十五分钟的内容，你可以阅读或收听。
Blinkist takes key ideas from thousands of nonfiction books and condenses them down into fifteen minutes that you can read or listen to.
我不太确定为什么这个节目环节的语速变得越来越快。
I'm not exactly sure why the pace of this segment of the program is being delivered in an increasingly fast pace.
我希望我在日常对话中也能说得这么快。
I wish I was able to talk this quickly during regular conversation.
我觉得人们会批评我说话太快。
I think people criticize me for speaking too quickly.
好吧，那是个弗洛伊德式的口误。
Well, that's a Freudian slip.
嗯，不是口误，是说错了。
Well, not a Freudian slip, but a misstatement.
我觉得从来没有人批评过我说话太快。
I think nobody's ever criticized me for speaking too quickly.
可能批评我说话太多。
Too much, maybe.
对。
Yes.
说话太慢。
Too slowly.
对。
Yes.
无聊又单调。
Boring and monotone.
对。
Yes.
确认。
Check.
确认。
Check.
确认。
Check.
但不要太快。
But not too quickly.
我觉得因为我经常在现场思考，而且我喜欢沉默。
I think because I'm really thinking on the spot a lot, and I like the silence.
我觉得词与词之间的沉默，至少对我来说，有助于思考。
I think the silence between words, at least for me, helps me think.
这也有助于放慢对话的节奏，让对方有时间思考。
It also helps calm down the pace of the conversation where the other person can think.
很多时候，我说话不一定是为了表达某个想法，比如我真的特别想表达一个想法，而是为了服务于对话，为了激发对方在这个想法的基础上继续发挥。
Oftentimes, the reason I'm talking is not necessarily to express an idea, like, I really, really wanna express an idea, but it's really to express an idea in the service of the conversation, in the service of inspiring the other person to build on top of that idea.
我真的不只是想显得聪明，或者说出一些我觉得必须说的话。
I really don't just want to sound smart or say something that I believe needs to be said.
大多数时候，我是在试着跳舞。
Most of the time, I'm trying to dance.
我是在试着做一个好的舞伴。
I'm trying to be a good dance partner.
所以，总之，说了这么多，在对话中成为好舞伴的燃料和催化剂，就是智慧。
So, anyway, all that said, the fuel, the catalyst for the being a good dance partner in conversation is wisdom.
而我的一些智慧，虽然不多，是从读书中得来的。
And I gain some of my wisdom to the small degree that I have it from reading books.
你可以完整地读，也可以部分地读，这就是Blinkist的用武之地。
And you can read them in full or you can read them in part, and that's where Blinkist comes in.
真的是有史以来最棒的非虚构类书籍摘要，你在任何地方都找不到比这更好的。
Really, the greatest of all time summaries and nonfiction books you can find anywhere.
简直太不可思议了。
It's just incredible.
我非常推荐这个。
I recommend it very highly.
如果你去blinkist.com/lex，就能享受特别优惠。
You can claim a special offer for savings if you go to blinkist.com/lex.
这个节目还由Athletic Greens赞助，就是AG one饮品，一种全能型日常饮品，帮助改善健康、提升最佳表现。
This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens, and it's AG one drink, which is an all in one daily drink to support better health and peak performance.
这种全能型日常饮品，我每天喝两次。
All in one all in one daily drink that I drink twice a day.
所以说是全能型，但我一天喝两次。
So it's all in one but twice a day.
不过我觉得大多数人一天喝一次，但我把乐趣和美味都加倍了。
But I think most people drink it once a day, but I have doubled the fun and doubled the deliciousness.
总之，这是我确保自己有一个营养基础的方式，在这个基础上我可以做各种疯狂的事情。
Anyway, it's it's the way I guarantee to have, like, a nutritional basis on which I can do on top of which I could do all kinds of crazy stuff.
我做的所有营养饮食安排，不管是每天只吃一顿、禁食，还是跑长跑，比如十二到十五英里，或者长时间进行脑力工作，反正我做的一切疯狂事，都靠这个打底。
All the nutritional diet stuff I do, whether it's eat once a day or fast or doing long runs, like twelve, fifteen miles, doing long stretches of mental work, just all the crazy stuff I do.
或者在我进行纯肉饮食的时候，它也能确保我身体摄入基本的营养。
Or when I do carnivore, it just ensures that I'm getting the basic nutrients into my body.
它就像一种很棒的复合维生素，但它的作用远不止于此。
It's like a amazing multivitamin, but it does just a lot more than that.
而且当你通过athleticgreens.com/lex注册时，他们会免费送你一个月的用量，这是我每天都会吃的另一种必需品。
And they'll give you one month supply official, another thing that's essential thing that I take every day when you sign up at athleticgreens.com/lex.
朋友们，请照顾好自己的身体和心灵。
Take care of your body and mind, friends.
这两样东西，你每样都只有一个。
It's the only one of each that you got.
这里是Lex Fridman播客。
This is the Lex Fridman podcast.
为了支持这个节目，请查看描述中的赞助商信息。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请Roger Gracie。
And now, dear friends, here's Roger Gracie.
让我们从可能是柔术历史上最伟大的比赛开始，你与布切查的第二场比赛。
Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jiu jitsu history, your second match against Buchecha.
我们来详细回顾一下。
Let's go through the details.
我们把整个过程过一遍。
Let's go through the whole thing.
先说说赛前入场。
So the walk leading up to it.
你总是这样走，那种史诗般的入场。
You always do this walk, this epic walk.
你把它发在Instagram上。
You post that on Instagram.
伦佐也发在了Instagram上。
Renzo posted on Instagram.
是的。
Yeah.
这种平静地走向垫子的步伐。
This calm walk towards the mat.
好吧，我们具体聊聊那场比赛。
Well, let's let's go to that match in particular.
你当时脑子里在想什么？
What was going through your mind?
你离开赛场一段时间，面对的可能是有史以来最伟大的选手之一，而且当时很多人都认为布切卡是有史以来最伟大的柔术选手。
You've been away from competition facing probably one of the greatest, and at that time, many people considered the greatest jiu jitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha.
这位老将，老前辈又重返赛场了。
Here's the old man, the old timer getting back out out there.
你当时在想什么？
What were you thinking?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得那是我拿到黑带以来，第一次走进赛场时不是夺冠热门，我得这么说。
I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite walk into a fight, I have to say.
很多人都觉得他是热门选手。
Like a lot of people thought consider him the favorite.
这也能理解。
I mean, understandable.
你知道，我有一段时间没参加比赛了。
You know, I was out of competition for a while.
而他那时候几乎赢下了所有比赛。
He was just winning everything.
所以，说到走上垫子，对我来说，比赛早在裁判喊开始之前就已经开始了。
So, you know, saying about the walk, like for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go, you know.
我觉得对我来说，专注和集中非常重要，得提前进入状态，我几乎是闭着眼睛走上垫子的。
It's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before, like, you know, I almost walk blind to the mat.
很多时候，我经过好朋友身边，但我谁都看不见，他们想跟我说话，而我却已经完全专注于对手了，尽管我甚至还没看到他站在我面前。
Many times I passed, like great friends and I couldn't see anyone, you know, they're trying to talk to you and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me.
所以我觉得，对我来说，尽量清空脑子里的一切，一直都非常重要。
So I think that's for me was always very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.
你是在想象对手的样子，还是只是放空？
Are you visualizing the opponent or just clearing
那时候没有，那时候没有。
Not at that not at that time.
那你脑子里在想什么？
Is there what's what's in your head?
是像一条平静的河，还有鸟在叫那种吗？
Is it like a calm river with birds chirping?
什么？什么？
What what
一片空白。
It's blank.
就是一片空白。
Just blank.
黑暗。
Darkness.
对。
Yeah.
一片黑暗。
Darkness.
好的。
Okay.
这就是我们在那种平静中看到的。
And that's what we see in that calmness.
就是一片空白。
It's just blankness.
要达到那种空白状态有多难？
How hard is it to achieve that blankness?
很难说，因为我觉得我不记得了。可能作为黑带，我会试着那样专注，不去想，因为可能你学到的是，想得越多，就越紧张。
It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt, I try to focus like that, not to think because it's probably something you learn is the more you think, the more nervous you get.
而且想比赛或者各种可能性，你知道的，你能做什么，什么可能出错，什么可能顺利，这些想了也没用，因为结果不可预测。
And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities, you know, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right because it's unpredictable.
你完全不知道。
You you have absolutely no idea.
比赛是无法预测的。
It's impossible to predict the fight.
你发现如果你放下那些紧张的情绪，清空你的大脑，其实效果很好。
And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.
确实。
It is.
它会让你感觉更好。
It it makes you feel better.
你知道，你可以在一定程度上控制自己的情绪，控制体内的肾上腺素。
It's you know, you you kinda control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level.
所以它绝对能帮助你在比赛中保持专注。
So it it absolutely helps you, you know, focus in the fight.
我学到了
I've learned
在柔术里，还有在生活中，每当遇到特别糟糕的事情，你就可以把那个念头抛开，不去想它。
that in jiu jitsu and in general in life, that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just, like, take that thought and not think about it.
对。
Yeah.
比如我在长跑或者快跑的时候就会这么做，是的。
Like, I do that, like, on long runs or, a fast run or yeah.
在柔术里，尤其是现在年纪大了，身材走样了，那种疲惫感。
In jiu jitsu, especially now getting older, out of shape, like that feeling of exhaustion.
嗯，你总是会感到疲惫的。
Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion.
你可以选择不去想它。
You could just not think about it.
对。
Yeah.
不去想自己有多累。
Not think about being exhausted.
对。
Yeah.
就是这样，反而会让你放松下来。
Just and that somehow relaxes you.
我觉得，可能当你感到筋疲力尽的时候，各种恐惧就会开始冒出来，也许你的肌肉会紧绷起来。
I think, maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, Maybe your muscles tighten up.
我也不知道。
I don't know.
这是针对那些业余柔术爱好者的。
This is for the the, the amateur jitsu person.
但有趣的是，你可以就这样把那个念头放下，不去管它。
But it it's kinda funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it.
所以作为黑带选手，你会习惯这一点。
So you get as a black belt competitor, you get used to.
你会很擅长放下各种杂念。
You get good at letting go of any thoughts.
对。
Yeah.
你提到疲惫，这也是一个很好的例子。
When you mentioned to exhaustion is that's another good example of it.
你知道，在比赛中很多时候你会感到累，而且会非常累。
It's you know, there's a lot of times in the fight, you're getting tired, and you're getting pretty tired.
所以最不应该想的就是自己有多累。
So it's like the last thing you wanna think of it is how tired you are.
这没关系，因为没关系。
It doesn't matter because it doesn't.
你能怎么办？
What are gonna do?
放弃吗？
Quit.
我的意思是，这真的不重要。
I mean, it doesn't matter.
就是看你有多累。
It's how tired you are.
就是
It's
对。
Yeah.
想这个没意义。
There's no value thinking about it.
确实没意义。
There's no value.
只能
Just have
硬扛过去。
to go through it.
所以当你比赛进行到很多分钟，像有时候那样慢慢移动，系腰带，喘口气，你其实什么都没想。
So when you're, like, you know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything.
你在试着放下
You're trying to let go of
对。
Yeah.
放下思考。
Of thinking.
我在试着，怎么说呢，保存一切，力求不浪费任何东西。
I'm trying to, like, to save everything to defy, like, nothing goes to waste.
就是说，每一个多余的动作都会让你更累，都会消耗你的体力。
It's, you know, every move unnecessary is is just gonna make you more tired, it's gonna take something out of you.
比如，我会尽量计算自己的每一个动作，尽可能保存体力，这样我才能在比赛中百分之百专注，尤其是在体力方面。
Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight with no way, especially energy wise.
这已经成了一种本能，就是尽量减少动作。
And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves.
你不会刻意去想，要不要
You're not, like, explicitly thinking, should
我要不要这么做？
I do this or not?
除非绝对必要，否则就不要动。
You it's just just don't move unless it's absolutely required.
对。
Yeah.
因为打斗的时候，你真的没有太多时间思考。
Because fight is you you cannot really there's not really time to think much, you know.
就是靠本能反应。
It's like it's it's it's your instincts are playing.
就是说，你已经准备好了你的武器，也做了该做的准备，就等着最佳时机。
It's like it's, you know, you already have your, you know, your weapons, let's say, you know, you did the the things that you do at it's just to wait for the perfect moment.
妙就妙在，每件事都有它合适的时机。
The beauty of it is, you know, there's the right moment to everything.
如果你感觉晚了一秒，就不行了，或者会变得很乱。
If you feel one second too late, it doesn't work, or it get messy.
所以，你知道，你要抓住那个时机。
So it's, you know, you're trying to catch that moment.
就是这样，你知道，为此你必须完全专注于你正在做的事情，因为一秒钟你就出局了。
That's it, you know, and for that, you have to be fully focused in what you're doing because one second is you're out.
那就不行了。
It won't work.
但你不是以动作超快著称的人。
But you're you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly.
所以那个时刻不在于你动作有多快。
So the so the moment it's not about how quickly you move.
而在于时机对不对。
It's about the right moment.
所以你可以慢慢动。
So you can move slowly.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这不是速度的问题。
It's not like speed.
不是说你要以光速移动。
It's not like you have to move the speed of light.
关键是那个精确时刻的移动本身。
It's it's it's the move itself at that precise moment.
不需要特别快，因为对手也不是特别快，你懂的。
It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast, you know.
所以这是你和对手之间移动的结合。
So it's it's it's a combination of moving between you and him.
我觉得柔道里也是一样的，动作可以非常小。
I mean, the same thing happens in in judo, and the movement can be really small.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得柔道更讲究爆发力一些。
I think judo is a is a bit more explosiveness.
你知道，就是动作稍微快一点。
You know, it's just a it's the moves are slightly faster.
所以不是那样。
So it did no.
柔道确实需要更多的爆发力。
It does require a bit more explosiveness in judo.
但即使是恰到好处的时机来破坏平衡。
But even just the right timing for an off balance.
对。
Yeah.
轻轻一拉就行。
Just a little tug.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
其实移动速度并不是那么重要。
It's not that that, you know, moving the speed is not gonna count that much.
对。
Yeah.
关键在于你发起动作的时机。
It's the timing that you initiate that move.
你看那些扫腿动作就知道了。
You see that with foot sweeps.
没有比那更美的了，对。
There's nothing more beautiful than Yeah.
就像奥运级别的选手在奥运会上对决，一个完美的……
Like a Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics and a perfect It
听起来像……
sounds like
然后你就看到一个人的人生在眼前闪过，他意识到，我本该是世界前三的选手，结果就这么被击败了，他们脸上那种表情就像，我根本不知道刚才发生了什么。
And it's just and you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize, like, I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find and they don't they have this look on their face like, I don't know what just happened.
看着真的很美。
It's beautiful to see.
这种场面你在拳击击倒之类的比赛中也能看到。
You you don't see that I guess you see that in boxing knockouts and stuff like that.
你根本不知道刚才到底发生了什么。
You don't know what the hell just happened.
对。
Yeah.
就是那个精准的移动瞬间，你被抓住了。
It's that precise moment of movement that you get caught.
就是那一瞬间，一眨眼的功夫。
Like, it's it's that one split second.
就是这样。
That's it.
柔术里也有这种情况吗？
Do you get that in jiu jitsu at all?
因为柔道有爆发力，还有那个得分制度鼓励大动作的摔投，所以会有那种一瞬间就翻盘的时刻。
Because judo has because of the explosiveness, because of the point scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws, has these moments where everything just turns in a single moment.
柔术里也有吗？
You have that in jiu jitsu too?
不太有，因为柔术的得分是，你知道，得两分那种。
Not really because then his points is you get, like, you know, two points.
所以，我觉得就降服来说，不是某一个精准动作就改变一切。
So he's because I think regarding the submission, it's not just one precise movement that changed everything.
我觉得柔道里，摔倒对方就算降服了，就像嘻哈一样，比赛就结束了。
I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission, like hip hop, fight over.
柔术不是那样的。
Jujitsu don't have that.
所以你会得分，但我觉得就降服来说，你得先拿到优势位置，然后降服才会慢慢出现。
So you will will score points, but I think in terms of submission, you need to get to, you know, a dominant position first, and then the submission will come slowly.
这是一个过程。
It's a process.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我们回到那个心态很特别的人吧。
Let's go back to that guy with with his mind.
所以实际上，在之前的几周、几天、几个小时里，
So actually, in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in
甚至几分钟里，你面对这件事的时候会不会有些恐惧？
the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?
我是说，我不会说自己无所畏惧，因为每个人都会害怕某些东西。
I mean, I'm not gonna say, you know, that I'm fearless because everybody fears something.
你懂吧？
You know?
恐惧是存在的，但关键在于你让它控制你多少。
The fear is there, but it's like, how much you let that control you.
我觉得我当时更多的是自信，而不是恐惧。
I think I was a lot more confident than fearful.
走向那场比赛的时候，绝对是这样。
For sure, walking to that fight.
比如，我当时相当自信，是的，我能打败他。
Like, I I was pretty confident that, yeah, I could beat him.
那种自信的来源是什么？
What is the source of that confidence?
我对自己的信念。
My belief on on on me.
这个，好吧。
This Okay.
我可以接受这个说法。
I can take the word.
你可以打败世界上任何人，但有没有具体的策略，比如，你知道，跟丹纳赫聊过，他相信没有所谓的自信。
That's you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic like, you know, talking to Danaher, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence.
或者说，获得自信的方式是通过数据，比如，你已经在之前的情况下证明了自己是有效的。
Like or rather the way you get confidence is through data, like, that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations.
但是对布切查，你没有太多数据。
But with Buchecha, you don't you don't have much data.
你第一次面对他时，那是一场非常艰难的比赛，也是史上最伟大的比赛之一。
It was a very the first time you faced him was a very tough that was also one of the greatest matches of all time.
那场比赛非常艰难。
It was very tough.
所以，那种怀疑不会悄悄出现吗？因为你没有足够的数据来支撑自信。
So doesn't that creep in, like, that doubt because you don't you don't have enough data to be confident based on.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，好吧。
I mean, okay.
如果我以前从来没打过比赛，突然就跟那样的人打，我还会那么自信吗？
If I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident?
我觉得可能不会。
I mean, probably no.
你懂吧？
You know?
所以过去的经历，我们做过的事、取得的成就，确实会给你信心。
So that history of what, you know, what we've been doing, what we've been achieving does gives you confidence.
如果那是我人生第一场比赛，我可能不会那么自信。
If that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that confident.
那休息了一段时间呢？
But the time off?
没关系。
It doesn't matter.
没关系吗？
Doesn't matter?
没关系。
Doesn't matter.
没关系。
Doesn't matter.
你没有那种恐惧，也没有那种身体上和心理上生疏、脱离团队的实际体验。
You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of the company.
来训练吧。
Come on on training.
所以你没问题。
So you okay.
所以你在训练中模拟了某些方面。
So you simulate some aspect to that in the training.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，训练会告诉你你的状态如何。
Mean, it's the the training will tell you how you are.
好的。
Okay.
你在这场比赛前有没有加大训练强度？
Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我训练，我正常训练。
I mean, I train I train normal.
比如说，跟第一场比赛相比，第二场我更有信心，因为，你知道，就像我在训练时说的，第一场比赛前的训练，你表现得很糟糕。
Let's say compared to the first fight, second one was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I said on training, the training for the first fight, you were terrible.
所以……
So
你是什么意思？
What what do you mean?
我觉得我有一段时间，大概几个月，专注于综合格斗，没有真正专注于柔道服训练。
I think I was focused in MMA for a while for a couple months, and I wasn't really focusing the gi.
而且，你知道，等我接下这场比赛的时候，我还没开始训练。
And, you know, by the time I accepted the fight, I didn't start training.
我的所有训练反应都不对劲。
Like, all my responses on training were off.
我以前一起训练的那些伙伴，以前都是我碾压他们的。
Like, all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed.
现在他们都能赢我了。
I mean, now they're like, they're beating me.
你知道，我没办法像以前那样轻松打败他们了。
You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I I I was used to.
对。
Mhmm.
但你知道，所以我知道第一场比赛肯定有问题。
But, you know, so I knew something was not right for the first fight.
但话说回来，没有得分，要么降服，要么平局。
But then it's is it, you know, no points is submission or or draw.
对。
So Yeah.
给不了解的人说一下，那是在Mud and Morris，二十分钟的比赛，只有降服才算赢，所以没有赢家
For people who don't know, was in Mud and Morris, which is a twenty minute match, submission only, so there's no the winner
只有降服才能决定胜负。
is determined only by submission.
否则就是平局。
Otherwise, it's a draw.
所以那场比赛，我身体状态不在线。
So physically, I wasn't I wasn't myself on that fight.
我很累，身体不听使唤。
I I was tired, and my body wasn't responding.
总之，那场比赛和第一场不一样。
Anyway, so that so the conflict was different from the first.
第二场，我觉得我有足够的信心，第一场我没被降服，我还会继续打，因为他必须降服我才能赢，我相信我的防守。
The second, I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first, that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me, and I trust on my defense.
我对我的防守很有信心，他不会让我认输的。
I'm confident enough for my defense that he will not tap me out.
但说到赢，你知道，走进第二场比赛时，我自信多了。
But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.
当感觉不对劲的时候，你怎么形容那种感觉？
What can you say about that feeling when something's not right?
那难道不是会让人崩溃的事情吗？
Isn't that a thing that breaks people?
确实很奇怪。
It is weird.
会让人崩溃。
It breaks.
真的很奇怪。
It's weird.
就像，人会撑不住。
Like, people crack.
他们就放弃了。
They give up.
你知道，这是一次很大的考验，因为就像非常疲惫一样。
You know, this is is a is a big test because it's it's it's like being really tired.
其实是一样的道理。
It's the same thing.
很多人崩溃是因为他们觉得自己再也撑不下去了。
It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more.
他们已经没有更多可以付出的了。
They have not nothing more to give.
所以他们就干脆放弃了。
So they just, like, give up.
太难了。
It's too hard.
那你怎么办？
So what do you do?
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就是，再说一遍，把
Just, again, take
把那些想法抛掉？
the thoughts out?
没有放弃这回事。
There's no giving up.
我是说，我不介意。
I mean, I don't mind.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
就是说，你光放弃是不够的。
Like, you you just giving up is not enough.
确实不够。
It's not.
你一直都是这么想的，对吧。
That's always the way you thought Yeah.
所有的柔术？
Of all jiu jitsu?
对。
Yeah.
我从来没有放弃过。
I I I never gave up.
我的意思是，我拍过。
I mean, I tapped.
你知道，不放弃不等于不拍。
It's you know, not giving up is not not tapping.
那只是愚蠢。
That's just stupid.
尤其是在训练的时候。
Especially, you know, during training.
比如，我被抓住了，我就拍。
Like, it's I get caught, I tap.
我从来没有因为不拍地认输而伤到自己。
I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping.
你会生气，训练很刻苦，想进步，想变得更好，但你还是被抓住了。
I get you get angry, you know, train hard, you know, improve, make a make yourself better, you got caught.
承认自己犯了错，放弃，拍地认输，然后更加努力。
Accept that you made a mistake, give up, tap, and try harder.
所以，不拍地认输，就是在牺牲你的身体，而且你永远不会和以前一样了。
So, you know, the not tapping, it's you're sacrificing your body and, you know, it's you you will never be the same.
比如，如果你的肘部被掰脱臼了，那个肘部就再也不会和以前一样了。
Like, if you let your elbow popped, the elbow will never ever be the same ever.
对。
Yeah.
你让自己昏过去，你的抵抗力就会下降。
You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops.
所以每个人在昏过去之前，都有一个能抵抗绞技的极限。
So it's everybody has a has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist a choke before you pass out.
就在你睡着的那一刻，抵抗力就会下降。
The moment that you you you you go to sleep, that resistance will drop.
根据
According
我从来没听人这么说过。
to I've never heard anyone say that.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
确实如此。
That's true.
所以这就是为什么人们通常说“不”的原因。
So tap so that's the reason because people usually say it's No.
这跟被击倒是一样的。
Can It's the same or you're getting knocked out.
你第一次被击倒，抵抗力就下降了。
You get knocked out the first time, your resistance dropped.
你的下巴会变得没力，越来越没力。
Your jaw get weak gets weaker.
所以，说句公道话，我从来没再睡着过。
So Just for the record, I've never got to sleep again.
这说明我的抵抗力很强。
Which means my resistance is high.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道。
I don't know.
应该是吧。
Must be.
哦，你的防御力挺强的。
Oh, your defense is pretty good.
这我倒不清楚。
I I don't know about that.
不是。
No.
我会的，因为我觉得这说不通。
I would because it doesn't make sense to me.
或者，就我而言，我觉得我对什么时候自己处境不妙的判断还挺准的。
Or maybe, in my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.
对。
Yeah.
就像，没有
Like, there's no
你没事。
You're not in trouble.
对。
Yeah.
在我的柔术旅程中，我最遗憾的一件事就是没有花足够的时间去经历那些非常糟糕的处境。
One of the things I regret the most about my jiu jitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions.
我觉得，随着我水平提高，我陷入糟糕位置的次数反而变少了。
Like, the better I got, I think, the less I started being in bad positions,
那太糟糕了。
which is terrible.
你进行实战训练。
You spar.
那才是你训练的方式。
That's like the that is how you train.
对。
Yeah.
因为你以前就是单纯地实战。
Because you used to just spar.
实战的时候，很难经常处于糟糕的位置。
When you spar, like, it's difficult to to be in bad positions a lot.
你和更强的人训练，但比如说，五六分钟一轮。
You train with better people, but, I mean, let's say five, six minute rows.
你会长时间处于很糟糕的位置吗？
How long you're gonna be in a really bad position?
不会太久，对吧？
Not long, right?
所以你没有太多时间去适应。
So you don't really have time to develop.
这就是为什么人们不训练处于糟糕位置，因为你必须反复从那里开始才能习惯。
That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train, be in bad position, because you have to start there over and over again to be used to it.
对。
Yeah.
或者把自己置于那种境地。
Or put yourself there.
我觉得我就是没有那种心态。
I just didn't have that mindset, I think.
我觉得你开始——我是说，柔术的乐趣之一在于，随着你越来越好，你会有一些固定的对手，你解决了一些难题，你在玩非常具体的细节。
I think you start I mean, part of the fun of jiu jitsu is as you get better and better, you have certain people you go with, you have these puzzles that you figured out, that you're playing very specific details.
你在训练。
You're working out.
你在努力提升你的主要技术之类的。
You're trying to improve your main, like, techniques and so on.
但是，说实话，你花在被人降服、或者甚至跟低级别的人对抗、试图逃脱基本降服技上的时间比例是很低的。
But, yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being or try even going against, like, lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions is low.
我不确定这对大多数人来说是不是真的。
I I don't know if that's true for most people.
可能是吧。
Probably is.
对吧？
Right?
大多数人的防守都很差。
Most people have a bad defense.
是的。
Yeah.
因为他们不让自己处于那种境地，毕竟谁想被降服呢？
Because they don't allow themselves to be there because I mean, who wants to get tapped?
因为你肯定会。
Because you will.
除非你练好防守，否则你肯定会被降服，或者逃不掉。
Until you, you know, until you work on your defense, of course, you're gonna get tapped or, you know, you're not gonna escape.
你会很难逃脱。
You're gonna struggle to escape.
所以人们不想处于那种境地。
So people, they don't want to be there.
我最后悔的是它明显影响了我的比赛表现。
I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed.
很明显，我的比赛一直受保守思维驱动。
It I it was it was clear that my competition was was constantly driven by conservative thinking.
比如，不要冒险。
Like, don't take risks.
我觉得是因为防守太弱了，说实话。
I think because of a weak defense, honestly.
而且我觉得，很多恐惧，比如疲惫，都伴随着恐惧，就是因为防守太弱了。
And I think, a lot of the any of the fear, like, for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think.
如果我要自我分析的话，我确实后悔了。
If I were to psychoanalyze myself, and I I regretted it.
我特别后悔。
I regretted it a lot.
说到这个，我觉得从来没有人能在比赛中降服你。
But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition.
所以你是……
So you're
嗯，在我青少年时期。
Well, while I was a juvenile.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
所以，当你年轻的时候。
So so when you were a young person.
是的。
Yeah.
六岁。
Six.
那件事还困扰着你吗？
That still haunt you?
不。
No.
首先，那场比赛我赢了很多。
It's first, I was winning that fight by a large.
我的意思是，我觉得赢了六分或者四分左右。
I mean, I think by six points or four or something like that.
但我当时想，我其实不记得了。
But I was like, I was Don't remember it, though.
细节方面。
By the details.
对。
Yeah.
那挺有意思的。
That's funny.
对。
Yeah.
你后来又赢过他吗？
You ever beat him again?
他再也没参加过比赛。
He never competed again.
不管你是谁，我们再来做一期播客吧。
Whoever you are, please let's let's do a podcast again.
我们会一直说哈吉的坏话。
We'll talk shit about Hajj the whole time.
不。
No.
那你觉得这归功于什么？
But what do you attribute that to?
你是说你很自信，世界第一的布切查无法降服你。
You're saying you're confident you're confident that the top of the world, the number one Buchecha would not submit you.
那这种自信从何而来？你觉得为什么没人能降服你？
So where is that confidence grounded, and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you?
首先，这来自于训练。
First, it comes on training.
你知道，我训练很多，尤其是在不利的位置。
You know, I train a lot, bad position.
比如，我的防守很好，因为我反复练习，就像我练习所有进攻位置一样多。
Like, my defense is good because I practice over and over again, as much as I practice all my offensive position.
所以你知道，你必须两者都练得一样好，不只是练优势位置，也得练劣势位置。
So it's you know, you have to train both equally, not just be in a good position, you have to be in bad.
所以我觉得那是我比赛中的强项。
So I think that's a very strong part of my game.
你知道，要成为一个全面的格斗选手，至少一个全面的武术家，你必须每个位置都擅长，每一个。
You know, to be a complete fighter, you know, at least a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single one.
那些就是你的弱点所在。
Those are the you're not, you have a weakness.
所以，要变得全面，你应该没有弱点。
So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness.
所以那一直是我特别在意的，就是我的弱点在哪里？
So that was always my you know, I was always very particular on that, like it's where are my weakness?
我在哪里感觉不舒服？
Where am I where I don't feel good at it?
如果你把我放在一个我挣扎的位置，我怎么逃脱？
If you put me in a position where I struggle, how do I escape?
我怎么脱身？
How do I get out?
所有情况。
Everything.
任何锁技、劣势位置，比如后背控制，所有情况。
Any submission locked, penny position, you know, back mount, everything.
不管我在什么位置，我都会反复练习，这样在实战中遇到时，我就知道怎么脱身。
It doesn't matter which position I have, I practice over and over again so that when I if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out.
至少我会有个方向，知道这是我的出路。
At least I'll have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.
你
Do you
会练习从劣势位置脱身，并且总是
practice both escaping the bad position and Always.
进入劣势位置的过渡，以及如何避免它吗？
The the transition into the bad position, avoiding it?
因为事情就是这样发生的，你知道，柔术，你从中立位置开始。
Because that's how it happens, you know, jiu jitsu, you start in a neutral position.
不。
No.
过渡本身就成了战斗。
The transition then then becomes the the fight itself.
重要的是你身处那个位置。
It's it's being there is most important.
当你身处那个位置时，你必须知道如何脱身。
It's when you're there, then you have to know how to get out.
那是你的弱点。
That that's your weakness.
阻止对方到达那个位置是另一回事。
Stopping the person getting there is something different.
所以这是两件不同的事情。
So they're two different things.
就是说，你要么练这个，要么练那个。
It's you it's either you practice one or the other.
所以两个都很重要，
So but both are important,
我觉得是这样。
I guess.
那当然。
Of course.
但阻止对方到达那个位置练起来更容易，因为这在训练中很自然就碰到了。
But the the stopping a person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training.
对。
Yeah.
那实际的过程是怎样的？
What was the actual process?
比如说，你最大的弱点是什么？回想一下，什么东西让你觉得特别难搞定？
Like, what was your biggest weakness throughout your like, just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out?
我是说，侧压这个位置，最难受的永远是侧压的下位。
I mean, side control is always is always Bottom of side control.
下位。
Bottom.
不管你练了多少次，它从来都不轻松。
It's regardless how much you you you practice, it's not ever easy.
你永远不会觉得
You'll never
轻松。
be easy.
但这真的很烦人。
But It's so annoying.
完全说不通。
It makes no sense.
对。
Yeah.
有人把你压住了。
Someone pins you down.
这时候我就特别想动。
This is I wanna move much.
一个又高又壮的家伙。
A big and strong guy.
不管是谁，想逃脱都不容易。
Regardless of who, he's not gonna be easy to escape.
所以有些情况就是很难。
So some situations are just hard.
抱歉打断一下。
That must be the sorry to interrupt.
我打断一下罗杰·格雷西的讨论。
I'm interrupting Roger Gracie to discuss.
但你刚才让我想到，如果你真的很厉害，如果你面对的是那种完美的柔术选手，侧压可能是最难逃脱的位置之一，是不是最难逃脱的位置？
But you just made me realize, if you're really good, if you're you're if you're going against, like, the perfect jiu jitsu competitor, probably side control might be one of the hardest positions to is it the hardest position to escape?
这是其中之一。
It's one of them.
如果对方不想进步，只专注于压制你。
If the person doesn't wanna progress, they're just concerned about both pinning.
对。
Yeah.
比如，世界上最擅长压制的人，我这么说部分是因为我见过柔道选手，他们很会压制。
Like, the best pinners in the world I mean, partially because I've just seen judo people that know how to pin.
对。
Yeah.
他们直接跳过第二选择。
They Go skip their second choice.
那真是噩梦。
It's a nightmare.
那真是噩梦。
It's a nightmare.
不管你练了多少次都没用。
Doesn't matter how much you practice
对。
Yeah.
这真是个噩梦。
It's a nightmare.
而且也挺让人沮丧的。
And it's also just frustrating.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这让人沮丧的原因也是，很多处于那种位置的人，他们更关心的是保持控制，而不是推进。
I think I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control, not progressing.
对。
Yeah.
而且通常，当人们处于骑乘位和背后控制位时，他们通常都在试图……对。
And usually, people when they're in mount and in back control are usually trying to Yeah.
朝着降服的方向推进，这样就给了对方逃脱的机会。
Progress towards a submission, which opens up opportunities for escape.
对。
Yeah.
那么，实际的过程就是一次又一次地把自己放在侧压和侧压下方的位置？
So what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself in side bottom side control?
对。
Yeah.
一遍又一遍，从那里开始，逃脱，回来，逃脱，回来。
Over and over again, starting there, escape, get back, escape, get back.
如果被骑乘了，就回来。
If it mounts you, get back.
任何超出这个范围的情况，停下来，重新开始，停下来，重新开始。
Any situation outside that, stop, start again, stop, start again.
而且必须得是，我会说，五分钟，因为正是重复才能教会你。
And it has to be, I'll say, five minutes, because it's the repetition that will teach you.
你知道吗，如果你在上面只练三分钟，你就有时间做一件事，然后时间就到了。
You know, if you train like three minutes on top, you have time to, you know, one thing, and then time out.
就是那种一遍又一遍的重复，当你反复尝试同一个动作时，你才会发现哪里可能出问题。
It's the repetition there over and over again that, you know, when you try the same move over and over again, then you see what can go wrong.
那这是理解动作的细节，还是实际去做动作并感受它呢？
And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it?
两者都有。
It's it's both.
首先，你得理解动作，然后再去练习。
First, you have to understand the movement and then practice.
但最重要的是防守。
But most important thing is defense.
逃脱是第二位的。
Scapecoming, second.
因为，你知道，他在攻击你。
Because, you know, he's attacking you.
一种情况是他没想降服你，但另一种情况是他确实想。
The one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one, if it is.
比如说，如果对手很强，进攻很厉害，那首先就是防守，不只是逃脱。
Let's say if it's a person who's very good, has a very good attack, the first thing is defense, not just scape.
你可能会让自己陷入更糟的境地，因为那样做非常冒险。
You can expose yourself to an even worse position because that is is is is very risky.
当你试图逃脱时，你总是会让自己暴露在更糟的位置。
When you're trying to scape, you'll always expose yourself to a worse position.
所以避免这种情况，首先就是防守，别被抓到。
So avoiding that, it's, you know, first is defense, not getting caught.
然后当你逃脱时，不要让自己处于比现在更糟的位置。
And then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position than you are.
那在柔术里，穿着道服时，防守具体包括什么？
So defense in jiu jitsu when you're wearing a gi, what does defense entail?
主要是抓把吗？
Is it mostly grips?
主要是臀部和腿的位置吗？
Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs?
是所有的东西加在一起，因为这是全身的运动。
It's it's it's it's everything together because it's a whole body movement.
就是，你知道的，要不停地移动你的手臂、腿和身体。
It's, you know, it's constantly moving your your arms, legs, body.
就是，它们，你知道，它们必须协同工作。
It's it they they, you know, they they have to everything works together.
回到那个人的心态，那么自信，那时候毫无畏惧。
Going back to the mind of that guy, so confident, No fear at this point.
这里面是不是也有点自负？
Is there a bit of ego in there too?
是的。
Yes.
就像我说的，不。
Like like I said, no.
我不会说我是无所畏惧的。
I'm not gonna say I'm fear I'm fearless.
当然，这有顾虑。
Of course, this concerns.
那场比赛，我得说，可能是我走进赛场时最紧张的一场，因为我知道那场比赛意味着什么。
That fight, I would have to say, was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in because I knew what that meant, that fight.
那对我来说意味着一切，我的所有荣誉都押在上面了。
It mean everything for me, all my legacy was on the line.
因为如果我输了那场比赛，我就永远只能是第二名。
Because if I lost that fight, I would forever be number two.
对。
Yeah.
永远。
Forever.
而且，我的意思是，布切查是个非常非常好的人，非常优秀的对手。
And, I mean, Buchecha is is a great great guy, great competitor.
他的柔术很好，但我比他更强。
Jiu jitsu is very good, but I'm better than him.
我知道这一点。
I knew that.
但他一直在不停地比赛，他……
It's like But he's competing nonstop at that He's
他是个很棒的对手，这一点毋庸置疑。
he's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him.
他非常顽强。
He's super tough.
非常非常顽强。
Very very tough.
非常厉害。
Very good.
他可能是柔术界最强的选手，拿过13次世界冠军。
He's probably the best competitor in jiu jitsu, and he won 13 times the world championship.
我赢了10次。
I won 10.
所以作为选手，你知道，他的冠军头衔比我多。
So, as a competitor, you know, he has more titles than I do.
但要是从分析比赛的角度来看，我觉得我在技术上比他强。
So but in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him.
所以，考虑到这一切，我所建立的一切，我的所有成就，都取决于这场比赛我是否输掉。
So, knowing all that, everything that I build, all my legacy, it's if I lose on this match.
如果我输了这场比赛，我就永远是第二名了。
If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two.
这些你都不会去想。
And none of that is going going through your mind.
不会。
No.
我知道。
I knew.
我的意思是，不是那一刻我才知道的，我早就知道了。
I mean, it's not at that moment that I I already knew that.
我记得就在帷幕拉开之前，我站在那儿，等着他们念我的名字。
I remember just before, you know, the curtains open, I'm standing in before they call my name.
然后我的腿，感觉肾上腺素一下就上来了，我就拍打自己的腿。
And I mean, my legs were like, I feel the adrenaline kick in on my legs, and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs.
我就跟自己说，醒醒，把那股劲儿压下去。
I'm like, wake up, you know, get off get the adrenaline off me, you know.
所以那场面真的很紧张。
So it's it was it was intense.
非常紧张。
It was intense.
这是在里约吗？
And this was in Rio?
对，是在里约。
That was in Rio.
所以呢？
So?
我的家乡。
My hometown.
所以，你知道，里约的粉丝可不是以冷静出名的。
So this is I mean, and, you know, Rio is is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans.
而且，这还是在奥运会举办的前一年。
So this is, like, wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before.
对。
Yeah.
所以基本上整个武术界都在关注这件事。
So this is like I mean, this like, the whole, basically, martial arts community is watching this.
都在看那场比赛。
Watching that fight.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，伦佐当时在吗？
I mean, is there some was Renzo there?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他在场。
He was there.
所以大家就是，我是说，关注度很高。
So people are just I mean, there's attention.
而且，我是说，我不知道你有没有感觉到，但你也是在为格雷西这个姓氏而战。
And it's also I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the Gracie name.
对。
Yeah.
在我们的家乡。
In the in our hometown.
最伟大的地方，格雷西家族真正立足的地方。
The greatest Where the Gracie really stands.
可以说是史上最伟大的选手，在家乡。
Competitor of all time, arguably, in the hometown.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，好吧。
I mean, okay.
我所有的家人，我最好的朋友，我的朋友们，每个人都在看，每个人都在场。
All my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there.
压力很大。
There was a lot of pressure.
非常大。
A lot.
那你当时有没有想过你能降服他？
And then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him?
没有。
No.
到了那个地步，就别去预测比赛会怎么发展。
It's at that point, like, don't predict how the fight will go.
我从来都不预测，因为比赛结果真的没法预料。
That I never did, because it is unpredictable.
我也从来不会为任何比赛制定什么策略。
It's I never tried to set any strategy for any fight.
我想想，哦，好吧，那次我确实制定了策略，但那是唯一一次。
I think, oh, okay, that I did, but that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight.
那场比赛打了十五分钟。
There was a fifteen minutes fight there.
我当时说，前五分钟我就防守。
And for I said, first five minutes, I'm gonna play defense.
他块头更大，力量更强，也更年轻。
He's bigger, stronger, younger.
我不想跟他玩他的那一套。
I don't wanna play his game.
而且我知道他每次比赛都冲得特别快，你知道的，他上来就特别猛。
And I know he comes in very fast, every single fight he had, you know, he comes very aggressive.
所以我那场比赛的策略就是，前五分钟，我打防守。
So my strategy walk into that fight, say five minutes, I'm gonna play defense.
我不打算主动进攻。
I'm not gonna try to attack.
我也不打算跟上他的节奏。
I'm not gonna try to match his pace.
我已经预料到了，你知道，我可能会开始落后，因为如果他冲上来，我有可能被击中，或者发生什么意外。
I already expected, you know, maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight because, you know, if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting ticked down, you know, or something happened.
我就想，我要坚持我的比赛计划。
I'm like, I'm gonna stick to the game plan.
前五分钟，我不会加快节奏，因为后面还有十分钟，而十分钟是一场很长的比赛。
Five minutes, I'm gonna stop picking up the pace, because then it's ten minutes to go, which ten minutes is a long fight.
所以我不需要一开始就冲，但我会开始变得更主动，然后试着摔倒他或者拉防守。
So I don't need to start fast, but I'm gonna start being more aggressive, and then, you know, try to take him down or pull guard, you know.
但到那时候，我觉得策略也就到此为止了。
But by then, I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes.
所以没有特别说要站着打。
So no specific stay on the feet.
你在上位和下位都感觉自在吗？对。
Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this Yeah.
这是策略上的选择吗？
Strategic move?
我在上位和下位都一直很自在。
I'm I'm always comfortable being bottom top.
我更喜欢在上位，因为在下位的话，上面那个人控制着比赛节奏，因为他压在你上面。
I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight because he's on top over you.
所以我总是更喜欢在上位，因为我可以掌控节奏。
So I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace.
我可以按照自己的节奏来。
I can implement my own pace.
如果我在下面，他们就能拖慢我的节奏。
And being the bottom, they can slow me down.
所以就更难了。
So it's harder.
所以如果我能选，我总会选择在上面。
So if I can choose, I will always be on top.
但我觉得到那时候，我就想，五分钟到了。
But I think by then, I was like, it's you know, five minutes hit it.
我就想，他挺高大强壮的。
I'm like, he's pretty big and strong.
我要花很多力气才能把他摔倒。
I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down.
我忘了。
I forgot.
那感觉怎么样？
How did it how did it feel?
所以现在你上场了。
So here, you're stepping in.
顺便说一句，Puzzle Mask，这可是老派风格，最老派的那种。
By the way, Puzzle Mask, this is old school, as old school as it gets.
大家边看比赛前几分钟边听，这里气氛很平静放松。
So calm and relaxed here for people just listening while watching the early minutes of the match.
对。
Yeah.
所以就是在试探。
So just feeling it out.
他看起来也挺冷静的。
He seems pretty calm too.
他肯定也紧张。
He must be nervous too.
我很好奇你是怎么跟他搭上话的？
I wonder how did you ever talk to him?
你们是朋友。
You guys are friends.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们是朋友。
We're friends.
他有没有说过他当时有多紧张？
Did he ever say how nervous he was?
没有。
No.
我们从来没聊过那场比赛。
We never spoke about that fight.
没有吗？
No?
没有。
No.
他可能晚上躺在床上还在想这件事。
He probably lays late at night thinking about it.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我不知道。
I don't know.
那个混蛋。
That SOB.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你会看到前五分钟。
I mean, so you'll see the first five minutes.
不。
No.
他以为我知道他要做什么，我研究过他的打法。
He kept I knew what he was going to do, and I studied his game.
他的站立技术最基础的就是摔法、腿攻、抱双腿摔。
His stand up is most basic is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double leg.
所以他就单腿摔、双腿摔，然后冲进来。
So he goes single, double, and he charges in.
这基本上就是他的站立打法。
That is pretty much his stand up game.
所以你会
So you would
试着抓住他。
try you get you get a grip.
对。
Yeah.
但是那一次我们被罚了。
That but we got penalized.
所以
So
你喜欢用左手支撑吗？
do you like to use the do you like to post with your left?
你通常右脚在前。
You have a right foot forward usually.
你是右撇子。
You're a righty.
对吧？
Right?
我是
I'm a
右撇子，但我知道他想要我的腿。
righty, but I know he wants my leg.
所以我这场比赛就是按照我的站位来打的。
So I'm I'm I'm playing my stance just because of this game.
你知道，前五分钟我的所有抓握都是为了尽量化解他的进攻。
All all, you know, all my grips at that the first five minutes was to kinda try to neutralize his attacks.
所以他想
So he wants
抓你的左腿？
to get your left leg?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就在那里。
Right there.
对。
Yeah.
那要阻止他有多难？
So how hard is that to stop that?
我是说，他进来的时候感觉挺强的。
I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in.
所以我就，你知道，把他的头往下压，试着打乱他的平衡。
So I'm, you know, pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance.
对。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
如果你看的话，会看到有个停顿。
If if you'll if you'll see it, there was a pause.
回放到那里。
Go back there.
他冲了进来。
He charged in.
有一个停顿，我站在他面前。
There's a pause, me standing in front of him.
对。
Yeah.
我是故意那么做的。
I did that on purpose.
什么意思？
What do you mean?
就是站在他面前，因为他试过了，你知道的。
Just to just in front of him because, you know, he tried.
对。
Yeah.
然后我就想，你失败了。
And I'm like, you fail.
我就在这儿。
I'm here.
还行吧。
Does okay.
所以你能感受到他的挫败感？
So you could feel the frustration?
我能感受到他的挫败感，因为他没法把我放倒。
I could feel his frustration his frustration not be able to take me down.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在这纯粹是心理战了。
So now and this is just psychological battle.
基本上就是我直接走到垫子中间，而他在外面绕着圈。
Basically me walking straight into the middle of the mat, and he's circling out.
对。
Yeah.
你看，我走得很慢，在恢复体力。
See, I'm going very slow, recovering.
他脑子转得飞快。
And he's computing like shit.
对。
Yeah.
因为他刚才费了很大劲想把我摔倒。
Because he just made a, you know, effort trying to take me down.
他需要恢复，我的意思是，你也需要恢复。
He needs to recover, and I mean, you you need to recover.
对方就在那儿等着你呢。
The other guy's there waiting for you.
对。
Yeah.
那我还要不要再尝试一次摔倒？
And do I do I go for another takedown?
因为刚才那次失败了。
Because this one failed.
对。
Yeah.
我需要重新计算策略吗？
Do I need to recalculate the strategy?
对。
Yeah.
而且他一直反复尝试，却一直失败。
And he kept trying over and over again and keep failing.
我觉得那场比赛让他很沮丧。
I think that frustrate him a lot on that fight.
我感觉他突然慢了下来，因为他一直没什么进展。
I felt I felt him kinda slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere.
所以我们已经打了五分钟了。
So we're five minutes in.
对。
Yeah.
他一直在尝试，所以他在早期从来没有成功摔倒对手。
He keeps so he never got that takedown in the in the early.
没有。
No.
我们看看。
Let's see.
所以在这个时刻，他
So at this point, do
你会拉防守吗？
you pull guard?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以那时候我觉得他在心理上，他现在开始担心了。
So that's when I felt like he's he's mentally, he's he's not he's worried now.
你在这里是试着拉近距离防守吗？
Did you try to pull close guard here?
没有。
No.
我知道他会把丹尼带进来。
I knew he was gonna bring Danny in.
好的。
Okay.
因为那是防守拉近距离防守的方法吗？
Because that's the defense against pulling close guard?
对。
Yeah.
但我喜欢那样。
But I like that.
你觉得呢？我喜欢别人把膝盖伸到我两腿之间。
What do you I like people bringing their knee between my legs.
因为你看，即使他的腿在中间，我也能合上我的防守式。
Because see, I'm gonna close my guard even with his legging.
好的。
Okay.
他在阻止……嗯，这有点尴尬，但我想……
He is he's he's stopping the well, this is this is awkward, but I guess
我抓住了他的手臂，所以他觉得没有手可以支撑。
I was holding his arm, that's why he felt he had no no hand to post.
明白了。
Got it.
但还是有一条腿进来了，对。
But still, it puts a leg in Yeah.
但你能合上防守式，所以你觉得没问题？
But you're able to close your guard around the so you're okay with that?
这个我做得很好。
I do that really well.
我经常从那个位置把人扫倒。
I sweep people from that position a lot.
怎么扫的？
What's the sweep?
我想就是推一下。
I guess Just pushed.
好的。
Okay.
就是推一下。
It's just a push.
比如，往你左边推？
Like, to your left side?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
因为他没有，哦，这几乎就像，你是说，你基本上绕到他背后一点，像拖拽一样。
Because he has no oh, it's almost like a you mean, you're basically around his back a little bit, like, dragsy.
他知道我用那招扫倒过很多人。
He knew that, like, I swept a lot of people with that sweep.
所以你看他一直往他的左边，也就是我的右边倾斜。
So you you see he kept leaning to his left, to my right.
对。
Yeah.
所以我想把他们往我的左边推。
So I wanna push them to my left.
所以你看他经常往我的右边靠。
So you see him leaning over to my right a lot.
对他来说，正确的应对是什么？
What's the right answer for him?
是翻滚之类的吗？
To like roll or something?
不是。
No.
我的意思是，他卡住了。
I mean, he's stuck.
他其实没有……他就卡在那儿了。
He does not really He's he's stuck there.
但他做对了一件事，就是完全没让我近身。
But the one thing he did, he kept off me completely.
你看，他往那边靠了，对。
See, that he's leaning Yeah.
太过了，他现在太怕我的攻击了。
Too like, he's too afraid of my attack now.
是的。
Yep.
因为他知道，他应该往我这边靠。
Because he that, you know, he should lean on me.
对。
Yep.
你知道吗，你应该主动来攻击我。
You know, you should bring the fight to me.
所以当我摔倒他的时候，我就知道他现在太担心我的攻击了。
So when I fell him, you know, I knew he was like, he's too worried about my attacks now.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
没错。
That's right.
所以他不能，对。
So he can't Yeah.
他回到中间，他没有……
He comes back to the center, he has no
所以他一直都没有真正参与进来。
like So he's not engaging all that time.
他百分之百只是在防守。
He's a 100% just defending.
所以我感觉到了。
So I felt that.
我就想，他不想主动进攻。
I'm like, he's he doesn't want to engage.
而且他看我的眼神，我知道那时候他想要我的脚。
And he's looking I knew at that point he wants my foot.
因为我们第一次交手，我也摆过同样的姿势。
Because our first fight, I had this, like, the same position.
当时我没抓住他的胳膊，他就来攻击我的脚。
I wasn't holding his arm, and he went to attack my foot.
对。
Mhmm.
他确实那么做了。
Which he did.
你知道，他进入了
You know, he got into
是抓住了还是什么？
hold or what?
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
我知道他在看我的脚。
I knew he's looking at my foot.
哪只脚？
Which foot?
抱歉。
Sorry.
左边你的
The left your
右脚？
right foot?
我的右脚。
My right.
对。
Yeah.
我的右脚。
My right foot.
好。
Okay.
所以我正抓着你的手臂。
And so I'm holding back your arm.
藏起来了吗？
Hiding it?
我正抓着他的手臂。
I'm holding his arm.
然后你现在要
And now you're going
往
to the
后面去，像是一种拉臂的动作。
back as an arm drag type of thing.
所以我一松手，现在我就抓住他的手臂，让他起不来。
So the moment that I came off, now I'm he I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up.
所以，你知道，我抓住他的左臂，这样他就不能把手撑在
So, know, I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on
地上站起来。
the floor and come up.
然后他抓住你的右手，想把你拉下来，对。
And he's holding your right to try to get you Yeah.
基本上就是为了防止你进攻。
Basically, to prevent you from attacking.
对。
Yeah.
哦，
Oh,
这挺有意思的。
that's interesting.
然后他滚了一下。
And he rolls.
对。
Yeah.
他试图让我失去平衡。
He tried to he tried to get me off balance.
你看，现在我换了一下握法，这样我就能腾出左臂。
So see, now I'm switching I switched the grip on his arm so I can free my left arm.
我能问你一个问题吗？
Can I ask you a question?
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