#393 – 安德鲁·休伯曼：关系、戏剧、背叛、性与爱

但他也提到，有一类特殊的人，大概占总人口的2%到5%，他们不仅内心拥有所有这些方面，还会花大量时间去探索其中的许多内容。

But he also mentioned that there's a unique category of people, maybe two to 5% of people, that don't just have all things inside of them, but they actually spend a lot of time exploring a lot of those things.

对。

Mhmm.

那些更阴暗的角落，那些阴影，他们自己的阴影。

The darker recesses, the shadows, their own shadows.

你知道，我这个人也和别人一样，被善良、光明和快乐所吸引。

You know, I'm somebody who's drawn to goodness and to light and to joy and all those things like anybody else.

但我想，这可能和我的成长经历有关。

But I think maybe it's part of how I grew up.

也许和我周围的人群有关。

Maybe it was the crowd I was with.

不过话说回来，即使后来我更多地接触学者和科学家，你还是会看到不同形式的阴影。

Maybe but then again, you know, even when I started spending more time with academics and scientists, I mean, you see shadows in other ways.

对吧？

Right?

你看到的是纯粹的野心，却没有热情。

You see pure ambition with no passion.

我记得在圣地亚哥有个同事，我很清楚他根本不在乎理解大脑，他只是把研究大脑当作实现野心的途径。

I I I recall a colleague in San Diego who, it was very clear to me, did not actually care about understanding the brain, but understanding the brain was just his avenue to exercise ambition.

对。

Mhmm.

如果你给他别的事情做，他也会去干那个。

And if you gave him something else to work on, he'd work on that.

事实上，他确实这么做了。

In fact, he did.

他离开了，去做了别的事情。

He left and he worked on something else.

我这才意识到，他对理解大脑根本没有热情，而我原本以为所有科学家都该有这份热情。

I realized he has no passion for understanding the brain like all I assumed all scientists do.

对。

Mhmm.

这正是我当初投身其中的原因。

Certainly why I went into it.

但有些人，纯粹是出于野心。

But some people, it's just raw ambition.

他们在乎的是赢。

It's about winning.

赢什么其实根本不重要。

It doesn't even matter what they win.

对我来说这很疯狂，但我认为有些人确实会去探索这种阴暗面，只是我没这么做过。

To which to me is crazy, but I think that's a shadow that some people explore, not one I have explored.

我觉得，理解我们内心那些阴暗的部分非常重要。

I think the shadow parts of us are very important to come to understand.

与其否认它们的存在，让它们以成瘾或伤害自己和他人的行为爆发出来，不如正视它们、承认它们的存在，并学会与之共处。

And look, better to understand them and know that they're there and work with them than to not acknowledge their presence and have them surface in the form of addictions or behaviors that that damage us and other people.

所以，实现心理健康的一个关键过程，就是把这些东西带到明面上来。

So one of the processes for achieving mental health is to bring those things to the surface.

所以要深入探索潜意识。

So fish the subconscious mind.

没错。

Yes.

保罗提到过十个可以用来探索自我的方面。

And and, you know, he Paul describes 10 cupboards that one can look into for exploring the self.

一个是自我的结构，另一个是自我的功能。

There's the structure of self and the function of self.

这些内容在系列里都会详细展开，包括人与人之间的关系层面，比如怎么选择合适的伴侣和健康的关系。

Again, this will all be spelled out in the series in a lot of detail, also in terms of its relational aspect between people, how to pick good partners and good relation.

他从一个非常独特的角度深入探讨了这些。

He gets really into this from a very different perspective.

哦。

Oh.

对。

Yeah.

太有意思了。

Fascinating stuff.

我当时坐在那儿就想说，我和保罗合作的这四集系列节目，到目前为止是我整个职业生涯中最重要的作品。

I was just sitting there just I will say this, that that four episode series with Paul is at least to date the most important work I've ever been involved in in all of my career.

因为很明显，我们从来没人教过怎么探索潜意识。

Because it's very clear that we are not taught how to explore our subconscious Yeah.

而且真正懂得怎么做的人少之又少，甚至很多精神科医生也不懂。

And that very few people actually understand how to do that, even most psychiatrists.

他提到过一些关于精神科医生的事。

He has a he mentioned something about psychiatrists.

如果你是个心胸外科医生，一半的病人在你手上死了，大家就会觉得你是个不合格的医生。

You know, if you're cardiothoracic surgeon or something like that and fifty percent of your patients die, you're considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon.

当然，这并不是说精神科医生都不行，确实也有非常出色的精神科医生。

But with no disrespect to psychiatrists, there are there are some excellent psychiatrists out there.

但也有不少水平很差的，因为除非他们的病人全都自杀，或者有一半自杀，否则他们的 incompetence 很难被发现，他们能一直干下去。

There are also a lot of terrible psychiatrists out there because unless all of those all of their patients commit suicide or half commit suicide, they can treat for a long time without it becoming visible that they're not so good at their craft.

他在这方面确实非常出色，我想他也会说，不仅要探索那些阴影，更要真正理解自己。

Now he's superb at his craft, and I think he would say that, yes, exploring some shadows, but also just understanding the self.

比如，你到底是谁？什么对你来说才是最重要的？

Like, what what you know, really under understanding like like, who am I and and and what's important?

我的抱负是什么？

What are my ambitions?

我真正追求的是什么？

What what are my strivings?

我这里提到的一些方法，其实都是借鉴了他具体描述的那些做法。

Again, I'm lifting from some of the things that that he'll describe exactly how to do this.

人们很少花时间去认真思考这些问题。

People do not spend enough time addressing those questions.

结果呢，他们只能通过行为的种种表现——有时是负面的，但希望也有正面的——来发现潜意识里藏着的东西。

And as a consequence, they discover what resides in their subconscious through the sometimes bad, hopefully, all also good, but manifestations of their actions.

我们其实被自己那占了九成、却无法被意识察觉的内在力量所驱动。

They're we are driven by this huge 90% of our real estate that is not visible to our conscious awareness.

我们得明白这一点。

And we we need to understand that.

我以前就说过这个。

You know, I've talked about this before.

从小时候起，我就每周做两次心理治疗。

I've done therapy twice a week since I was a kid.

那是我被允许回学校的前提条件。

I had to as a condition of being let back in school.

我一直坚持着，不管有没有保险，我都会想办法负担治疗费用——比如当博士后时，我额外接了为《Thrasher》杂志写稿的活儿，就为了能以优惠价做治疗，毕竟博士后收入不高。

I continue I found a way to either through insurance or even when I didn't have insurance, I took an extra job writing for Thrasher magazine when I was a postdoc so I could pay for therapy at a at a discount because I didn't make much money as a postdoc.

对我来说，这和去健身房一样重要。

I mean, I think, for me, it's as important as going to the gym.

对。

Mhmm.

人们总觉得，不过是反复琢磨问题，或者只是做点工作而已。

And people think it's just, oh, you know, ruminating on problems or getting some work.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

如果你找了一个特别好的治疗师，他们会逼你去思考：你到底是谁？你真正想要的是什么？

If you work with somebody really good, they're forcing you to ask questions about who you really are, what you really want.

这不只是提供支持，当然需要支持和信任，但更重要的是要获得洞见。

It's not just about support, but there should be support, there should be rapport, but then it's also there should be insight.

对吧？

Right?

大多数接受治疗的人，确实得到了支持和信任，但要获得真正的洞见并不容易。一个优秀的心理医生或精神科医生，能帮你获得深刻的洞察，彻底改变你的人生。

Most people who get therapy, they're getting support, there's rapport, but insight is not easy to arrive at, and a really good psychologist or psychiatrist can help you arrive at deep insights that transform your entire life.

有时候，当我内省时——我经常这么做——探索你真正是谁，就会遇到这样一个问题。

Well, sometimes when I look inside, and I do this often, you know, exploring who you truly are, you come to this question.

我接受吗？

Do I accept?

当你看到这些部分时，我是该接纳它，还是该去改变它？

Once you see parts, do I accept this, or do I fix this?

对。

Mhmm.

这究竟是你本质的一部分，会一直如此，还是说这是一个需要解决的问题？

Is this a is this who you are fundamentally, and it will always be this way, or is this a problem to be fixed?

比如，最近一段时间，其实一直以来，我发现自己特别看重忠诚，可能比一般人更看重，这大概源于童年，也跟很多经历有关。

Like, for example, one of the things, especially recently, but in general, over time, I've discovered about myself, probably has roots in childhood, probably has roots in a lot of things, is I deeply value loyalty, maybe more than the average person.

所以一旦遇到不忠诚的事，我会感到很痛苦。

And so when there's disloyalty, it can be painful to me.

这就是真实的我。

And so this is who I am.

那我是不是该放松一点？

And so do I have to relax a bit?

我得改掉这一部分吗，还是说这就是真实的你？

Do I have to fix this part, or is this who you are?

然后呢，这种例子多得数不清，这只是其中一个，嗯，我

And then and there's a million that's one, like, little I

我觉得忠诚是值得坚持的品质，只要当忠诚被打破时，别让这件事毁掉你生活的其他方面就行。

think loyalty is a good thing to cling to, provided that when loyalty is broken that it doesn't disrupt too many other areas of your life.

但这也得看是谁破坏了忠诚，是同事，还是恋爱对象，或者你的专属伴侣，这取决于你感情关系的结构。

But it depends also on who's disrupting that loyalty, if it's a coworker versus a a romantic partner versus your exclusive romantic partner, depending on the structure of your romantic partner life.

你懂的吧？

You know?

我一直从友谊中感受到极大的快乐、安全感和信任。

I mean, I have always experienced extreme joy and feelings of safety and trust in my friendships.

主要是和男性的友谊，当然也有女性朋友，这么说只是想强调我大多数朋友是男性。

Again, mostly male friendships, female friendships too, which is only to say that they were mostly male friendships.

女性朋友也同样忠诚。

The female friendships have also been very loyal.

你懂的。

You know?

所以被人背后捅刀子，我从来没经历过。

So getting backstabbed is not something I'm familiar with.

而且，我特别喜欢和靠谱的人一起做事。

And, yeah, I love being crewed up.

你懂的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

当然了。

For for sure.

我跟你是一样的。

And I'm with you.

你知道，咱们在这方面的价值观真的很接近。

And, you know, you and I are very much have the same values on this.

但你知道，这只是其中一件小事，还有很多别的事情。

But, you know, that's one little thing, and then there's many other things.

我对自己特别苛刻，你看我，我经常反思自己，真的挺严苛的。

Like, I'm extremely self critical, and you look at my, you know, I look at myself as I'm regularly very self critical.

我脑子里有个自我批评的引擎。

There's a self critical engine in my brain.

我其实跟保罗聊过这个，好几次在播客里提到，他说这可不是什么好事。

And I talked to actually Paul about this, I think, the podcast quite a bit, and he's saying this is a really bad thing.

对。

Mhmm.

你得想办法改掉这个毛病。

Like, you need to fix this.

你得学会经常对自己保持积极的态度。

You need to be able to be regularly very positive about yourself.

我一直不认同他的说法。

And I kept disagreeing with him.

不对。

No.

这其实就是我的本性。

This is like who I am.

你看，这方法对我挺管用的。

Like, you and it seems to work.

别去动那些已经奏效的东西。

Don't mess with the thing that seems to be working.

这样挺好。

It's fine.

我总是在感恩和自我批评之间来回摇摆。

Like, I oscillate between being really grateful and really self critical.

但你得好好想想，这到底是什么原因。

But then you have to, like, figure out what is it.

也许背后有个更深的根源。

Maybe there's a deeper root thing.

可能 somewhere 有个不安全感，跟童年有关，你只是在试图向童年时的某个人证明什么，类似这样的情况。

There's an maybe there's an insecurity in there somewhere that has to do with childhood, and then you're trying to prove something to somebody from your childhood, this kind of thing.

我觉得有几点对大家可能很有帮助。

Well, a couple of things that I think are hopefully valuable for people here.

一种毁掉自己生活的方式，就是花时间去试图控制自己或别人的过去。

One is one way to destroy your life is to spend time trying to control your or somebody else's past.

我们很多破坏性的行为和想法，都源于希望某些看到的、做过或听过的事情没有发生过，而不是真正面对并接纳它们本来的样子。

So much of our destructive behavior and thinking comes from wanting something that we saw or did or heard to not be true rather than really working with that and getting close to what it really was.

有时候这些事甚至很创伤，我们需要真正靠近它们，让它们从我们身上流过。

And, you know, sometimes those things are even traumatic, and we need to really get close to them and and for them to move through us.

当然，有各种方法可以做到这一点，可以依靠他人的支持，当然有时候也需要独自面对。

And and that you know, there are a bunch of different ways to do that with support from others and hopefully, but sometimes on our own as well.

我觉得我们很难改变那些根深蒂固的偏好，比如什么让我们厌恶、什么让我们开心。

I don't think we can rewire our deep preferences and what we find despicable or joyful.

但我认为真正关键的是，什么才能带给我们内心的平静。

I do think that it's really a question of what allows us peace.

你能接受自己特别爱自我批评，甚至享受这种状态吗？能不能稍微拉开点距离，用点幽默来看待它？

Like, can you be at peace with the fact that you're very self critical and enjoy that, get some distance from it, have a sense of humor about it?

还是说，这种自我批评已经让你睡不着觉，让你不得安宁了？

Or is it driving you in a way that's keeping you awake at night and Yeah.

逼着你一遍遍回到桌前，做那些让你觉得自己在惩罚自己的事，感觉特别难受。

And forcing you back to the table to do work in a way that feels self flagellating and doesn't feel good.

你能不能学会谦卑，看清自己的缺点在哪里？

You know, can you get that humility and awareness of how your you know, of your one's flaws?

我觉得，这种觉察和空间感，听起来可能有点新纪元味儿。

And I think that that that can create, you know, this word space sounds very new agey.

就是，给自己留点空间，别陷在里面。

Like, get space from it.

就是说，咱们其实都能以幽默的态度看待自己有多神经质。

It's that, you know, you can have a sense of humor about how how neurotic we can all be.

其实，从心理学和精神医学的经典定义来看，‘神经质’这个词本身并不算贬义。

I mean, you know, neurotic isn't actually a bad term in the classic sense of of the psychologists and psychiatrists.

弗洛伊德派认为，最好的状态其实是有点神经质——能看清自己的问题并去应对，而精神错乱才是真正的糟糕状态。

The Freudians said that, you know, the best case is to be neurotic, to actually see one's own issues and work with them, whereas psychotic is the is the other is the other way to be, which is obviously not good.

所以，到底该去改变这些特质，还是接纳它们作为自我的一部分，关键在于你是否觉得它们在拖你的后腿。

So I think the question whether or to work on something or to just accept it as part of ourselves, I think, really depends if we feel like it's holding us back or not.

我觉得你问的这个问题，可能是关于人性最深刻的一个：你该怎么对待自己的身体？

And I I think you're asking perhaps the most profound question about being a human, which is, you know, what what do you do with your body?

你又该怎么对待自己的头脑？

What do you do with your mind?

其实这跟我们一开始聊健身时提到的问题是一回事，只是原因各不相同。

I mean, if you it's also a question we started off talking about fitness a little bit, which is for whatever reason.

比如说，我真有必要去跑个超马吗？

You know, do I need to run an ultra marathon?

我不觉得我有必要。

I don't feel like I need to.

大卫·戈金斯不仅做，还做得多得多。

David Goggins does and and does a whole lot more than that.

对他来说，这很重要。

So that for him, that's important.

对我来说，做这些并不重要。

For me, it's not important to do that.

我不认为他只是为了跑超马才这么做。

I don't think he does it just so he can run the ultras.

对他和像卡姆·海恩斯这样的人，背后显然有别的东西，我非常敬佩他们所做的一切和方式。

There's clearly something else in there for him and guys like Cam Haines and and and tremendous respect for for what they do and how they do it.

一个人非得让身体更健壮、更强壮、更有耐力、更灵活吗？

Does one need to make their body more muscular, stronger, more endurance, more flexibility?

你非得读更难的书吗？

Do you need to read harder books?

我觉得做难事本身就很痛快。

Do you need to I think doing hard things feels good.

我知道，真的特别痛快。

I think it I know it feels good.

我最难受的时候，就是明明该做却一直拖着不做。

I know that the worst I feel the worst way to feel is when I'm procrastinating and I don't do something.

每当我终于做完一件事，突破了那个特别难的关口，做完之后，整个人就像被注入了一种超强的能量。

And then whenever I do something and I complete it and I break through that point where it was hard, and then I'm doing it, at the end, I actually feel like I was infused with some sort of super chemical.

说不定这其实是身体自己分泌的一堆化学物质，但我觉得，做难事确实很有价值。

And who knows if it's probably a cocktail of endogenously made chemicals, but I think it is good to do hard things.

但也要小心，别在过程中把身体或精神搞垮了。

But you have to be careful not to destroy your body, your mind in the process.

我觉得关键在于，你能不能内心平静。

And I think it's about whether or not you can achieve peace.

你晚上能睡得踏实吗？

On can you sleep well at night?

如果你晚上能睡得好，压力其实没什么坏处。

Stress isn't bad if you can sleep well at night.

你一整天感到有压力都没关系。

You can be stressed all day.

去吧。

Go.

去吧。

Go.

去吧。

Go.

去吧。

Go.

去吧。

Go.

去吧。

Go.

它能帮你提升专注力，但你晚上能睡得着、睡得深吗？

And it'll optimize your focus, but can you fall asleep and stay deeply asleep at night?

处在一段艰难的关系里。

Being in a hard relationship.

有些人会说，你知道的，这不太好。

Some people say, you know, that's not good.

但有些人就喜欢这样。

Other people like it.

你能在这种状态里感到平静吗？

Can you be at peace in that?

我觉得我们每个人，你知道的，节奏都不一样。

And I think we all, you know, have different RPM.

每个人放松时的转速都不尽相同。

You know, we all kind of idle at different RPM.

有些人像慢节奏的科斯特洛，而另一些人则需要更多张力，才能觉得安心。

And some people are big mellow Costellos, and others are kinda like, you know, need need more friction in order to to feel at peace.

但我认为，最终我们真正想要的，是内心平静。

But I think ultimately what we want is to feel at peace.

是的。

Yeah.

过去几年我经历过一些很低谷的时刻，仔细想想，原因可能就在于我一直找不到内心的安宁。

I've been through some really low points over the past couple years, and I think the reason could be boiled down to the fact that I haven't been able to find a place of peace.

一个地方、一些人，或者某些瞬间，能带给你深层的平静。

A place or people or moments that give deep inner peace.

对。

Yeah.

你说得真好，我也有同感。

I you know, and I think you put it really beautifully.

你得根据自己的性格、思维模式，还有心里那些藏得层层叠叠的东西，去找到和它们相处的方式。

It's you have to figure out, given who you are, the various characteristics of your mind, all the things, all the contents of the cupboards, how to how to get space from it.

而最终，最好的证明就是：你能笑着看待这一切。

And ultimately, one good representation of that is to be able to laugh at all of it.

不管心里在想什么，都能退一步，笑着看待这一切的美好与荒诞。

What whatever whatever is going on inside your mind to be able to step back and just kinda chuckle at the at the beauty and the absurdity of the whole thing.

是的。

Yeah.

然后继续往前走。

And keep going.

就像我之前说的，最近好像每期播客都在讲这个。

There's this beautiful as I mentioned, it seems like every podcast lately.

我特别喜欢Rancid，主要是因为蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗的歌词简直就是诗，不管你喜不喜欢他们的音乐，对吧？

I'm a huge rancid fan mostly because I just think Tim Armstrong's writing is is pure poetry, and whether or you like the music or not, You know?

他也为很多人写过歌。

And he's written music for a lot of other people too.

但他从不怎么宣传这些事。

He's not doesn't advertise that much

因为他为人低调。

because he's humble.

不过说起来，我二十年前还去过他们的一场演出。

But I And that, by the way, I went to a show of theirs, like, twenty years ago.

真的吗？

Oh, yeah?

我九月十八号要去波士顿看他们演出。

I'm going to see them in Boston in September 18.

我专门飞过去，然后从纽约坐火车上去。

I'm literally flying there for for where I'll take the train up from New York.

我会跟一个叫吉姆·瑟博的朋友碰头，他个子很高，经营着不少公司，都在滑板行业。

I'm gonna meet a friend of mine named Jim Thebo, who's a big guy who owns a lot of companies, skateboard industry.

我们俩约好一起去现场看他们演出。

We're meeting there, like, a couple of little kids to go see them play.

真是了不起的人，音乐也太棒了。

Amazing amazing people, amazing music.

特别有力量。

Very intense.

特别强烈，而且把各种情绪都浓缩在一起了。

Very intense, and it but embodies all the different emotions.

这就是我这么喜欢他们的原因。

That's why I love it.

对吧？

Right?

他们写过一些情歌。

They have some love songs.

也写过一些充满愤怒的歌。

They have some hate songs.

说到这个，就像你刚才说的，我觉得他们的专辑《Indestructible》里第一首歌就是这样的。

They have some and but, you know, there's a going back to what you said, I think there's a there's a song, the first song on the the Indestructible album.

我觉得那首歌讲的是，当你发现身边亲近的人其实有你不知道的一面时，那种震惊和难以置信的感觉。我可不敢唱出来，但你懂我的意思。

I think it there's a it's sort of he's just talking about shock and disbelief of discovering things about people that were close to you, and you you know, it's I won't I won't sing it, but, you know, nor I wouldn't dare.

有一句歌词我从2003年那张专辑出来后就一直记着：‘一切都不如表面看起来那样，所以我只能坐在这里笑。’

But there's this one lyric where that's really stuck in my mind for for ever since that album came out in 2003, which is, you know, that nothing's what it seems, so I just sit here laughing.

我得继续往前走。

I'm gonna keep going on.

我不能分心。

I can't get distracted.

有时候你得学会把那些让人不安的事推开，然后继续前进。

There is this piece of like, you gotta learn how to push out the disturbing stuff sometimes and go forward.

我记得当时听到这句歌词，马上就把它记了下来。

And I mean, I remember hearing that lyric and and then writing it down.

那时候，我的本科导师，就像我的良师益友，甚至像父亲一样，却在浴缸里开枪自尽了。

And, you know, that was a time where my undergraduate adviser who was like a a mentor and a father to me, you know, blew his head off in the bathtub Mhmm.

就在那之前三周。

Like three weeks before.

而我当时跟着读研的导师，我特别敬爱她，她就像母亲一样。

And then my graduate adviser, who I was working for at that time, who I loved and adored, was really like a mother to me.

我认识她的时候她正怀着两个孩子，后来五十岁因乳腺癌去世了。

Knew her when she was pregnant with her two kids, died at 50, breast cancer.

然后是我的博士后导师，我第一天以教员身份到斯坦福上班，正坐在他对面，他当场心脏病发作，最后在2017年底因胰腺癌去世。

And then my postdoc adviser, you know, first day of work at Stanford as a faculty member sitting across the table like this from him, had a heart attack right in front of me, died of pancreatic cancer at the end of twenty seventeen.

我那时一遍又一遍地想起那首歌，回想起来，我这一生其实没经历过多少背叛。

And I remember just thinking like, going back to that song over and over, and where people would I haven't had many betrayals in life.

当然，也有那么几次。

I've had a few.

但每次看到或学到某些事的时候，你就是会忍不住想：这怎么可能真的发生？

But just thinking like we're seeing something or learning something about something, you just like, you can't believe it.

是的。

Mhmm.

我提到过那首歌《Indestructible》里的歌词，就因为那种情绪太真实了——我真的不敢相信，这一切居然发生了。

And I I I I mentioned that that lyric off that first song, Indestructible, on that album because it's this the like, just the raw emotion of like, I can't believe this.

我亲眼看到的那些事。

What I just saw Mhmm.

实在太让人难以接受了。

Is so disturbing.

对。

Mhmm.

但我只能继续往前走。

But I have to just keep going forward.

有些事情我们真得 push 掉，不能只放在边缘，得彻底扔进垃圾堆，然后继续前进。

There are certain things that we really do need to push, not just into our periphery, but off into the gutter and keep going.

学会这么做可不容易。

And that's a hard thing to learn how to do.

但如果你想在生活里保持正常，就必须这么做。

But if you're going to be functional in life, you have to.

其实说到我到底是该改变，还是该接纳自己这个方面——去年四月，我花了六个月时间，认真处理了一些特别让我困扰的事。

And actually, just to to get at this issue of do I change or do I embrace this aspect of self, about six months was April of this last year, I did some intense work around some things that were really challenging to me.

我一个人做的，可能还用了一些药物。

And I did it alone, and it may have involved some medicine.

我本以为这样能换来内心的平静。

And I expected to get peace through this.

我当时就想，算了，我放下了。

I was like, I'm gonna let go of it.

我花了十一个小时，越想越烦，越想越生气，就为了处理这件事。

And I spent eleven hours just getting more and more frustrated and angry about this thing that I was trying to resolve.

我特别失望，居然一点解脱的感觉都没有。

And I was so unbelievably disappointed that I couldn't get that relief.

我当时就在想，这到底是怎么回事？

And I was like, what is this?

这根本不该是这样的。

Like, this is not how this is supposed to work.

我本该感到平静的。

I'm supposed to be feel peace.

乌云本该散开的。

The clouds are supposed to lift.

一周过去了，又过了半个星期。

And so a week went by, and then another half week went by.

后来，我跟一个我很信任的人说了这事，因为我有点担心，这到底怎么回事？

And then someone who I whose opinion I trust very much, I explained this to them because I was getting a little concerned, like, what's going on?

情况变得更糟了，而不是好转。

This is worse, not better.

他们说，这其实很简单。

And they said, this is very simple.

你有一个巨大的盲点，安德鲁，你的正义感和愤怒感就像一根铁棒牢牢连在一起，你需要松一松。

You have a giant blind spot, which is your sense of justice, Andrew, and your sense of anger are linked like an iron rod, and you need to relax it.

他们这么说的时候，我感觉到怒气慢慢消散了。

And as they said that, I felt the anger dissipate.

所以，我觉得他们说的有道理。

And so there was something that I think is it is true.

我确实有很强的正义感，而那时，我的愤怒也跟它紧密相连。

I have a very strong sense of justice, and my sense of anger then at least was very strongly linked to it.

有正义感当然是好事。

So it's great to have a sense of justice.

对吧？

Right?

看到别人受委屈，我实在受不了。

I hate to see people wronged.

我确实受不了。

I absolutely do.

我也是普通人。

And and I'm human.

我敢肯定，我这一生中也伤害过别人。

I'm sure I've wronged people in my life.

我知道我有。

I know I have.

他们告诉我了，我也尽力道歉、修复关系，能做的都做了。

They've told me I've tried to apologize and reconcile where possible.

但还是有很多事等着我去改进。

Still have a lot of work to do.

但每当我看到不公，那种愤怒就会涌上来，简直快把我吞噬了。

But where I see injustice, it draws in my sense of anger in a way that I think is just eating me up.

直到我听到那个之前从未意识到的关联——它其实一直藏在我的潜意识里——我才真正感受到了放松。

And but it was only in hearing that link that I wasn't aware of before, it was in my subconscious, obviously, Did I feel the relaxation?

不管吃多少植物药剂，用多少MDMA，或者任何其他化学物质，都不可能自动化解内心深处的难题。

It wasn't there's no amount of plant medicine or MDMA or any kind of, you know, chemical you can take that's naturally just going to dissipate what's hard for oneself.

真正要解决这些问题，要么你主动面对，要么通过谈话治疗、写日记、和朋友倾诉、自我反思，或者全都用上——关键是要意识到那些你一直没察觉的东西。

It needs if one embraces that or if one chooses to do it through just talk therapy or journaling or friends or introspection or all of the above, there needs to be an awareness of the things that we're just not aware of.

所以，你问我该接纳还是对抗这些自我层面的问题？我觉得，得靠有经验的人帮你深入潜意识，有时候还得结合我刚才说的那些方法，慢慢摸索出来。

So I think the answer to your question, do you embrace or do you fight these aspects of self is I think you get in your subconscious through good work with somebody skilled or and sometimes that involves the tools I just mentioned in various combinations, and you figure it out.

你要弄清楚，这些东西到底是不是在帮你。

You figure out if it's serving you.

很明显，它从来没给我带来过平静。

Obviously, it was not bringing me peace.

它一直在破坏我的正义感，也在瓦解我的内心安宁。

It was undermining my my sense of justice, was undermining my sense of peace.

所以现在我明白了这个联系，正义和愤怒之间的关系，我觉得它不像一根硬邦邦的铁棍，倒更像一根能弯曲的软糖。

And so in understanding this link be now I would say that the in understanding this link between justice and anger, now I think it's a little bit more of like a you know, it's not like a Twizzler stick, Bendy, but it's at least it's not like an iron rod.

比如，当我看到有人被亏待，以前我根本控制不住，立刻就炸了。

Like, you know, when I see somebody wronged, I mean, it used to just like like immediately.

但你现在能退一步了。

But you're able to step back.

对我来说，能笑出来，才是真正的终点。

Now that that that's like, to me, the ultimate place to reach is laughter.

我就坐在这儿笑。

I just sit here laughing.

没错。

Exactly.

这正是那句歌词。

That's that's the the lyric.

我真的没想到会这样。

I, like, I can't believe it.

我就坐在这儿笑，根本没法分心。

So I just sit here laughing, like, can't get distracted.

就是到了某个时候吧。

Just you just at some point.

但光是靠笑来应对问题，其实会让人跟事情拉开距离。

But the but the problem I think in just laughing at something, like that gives you distance.

但关键在于，到了这一步，你是不是就不再参与了？

But the question is, does do you stop engaging with it at that point?

我最近就亲身体会到，有时候看到一些事，心里就想：这什么情况？

Like, I experienced this I mean, recently, I got to see how sometimes I'll see something that's just like, what?

太离谱了，我就忍不住笑出来。

Like, this is crazy, so I just laugh.

对。

Mhmm.

但接着我又继续卷进去，结果把自己带偏了。

But then I continue to engage in it, and it's taking me off course.

所以呢，说实话，我也意识到这可能是个儿童节目，所以我还是想保持内容干净，别太过了。

And so there is a place where, you know, I mean, I I get realize this is probably a kid's show too, so I wanna keep it, you know, g rated.

但有些时候，对某些事，真该直接说：去他的。

But at at some point, for certain things, it makes sense to go, fuck that.

不过你自个儿说‘去他的’的时候，也别忘了笑一笑。

But also, laugh at yourself for saying fuck that.

对啊。

Yeah.

然后就接着往前走。

And then move on.

所以问题来了，你是陷在里面出不来，还是能放得下继续前进？

So the question is, are you do you get stuck or do you move on?

当然。

Sure.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Sure.

但笑真的能让人变得轻松自在。

But, like, there's a lightness of being that comes with laughter.

我的意思是，我已经明白了。

I mean, I've gotten Sure.

你知道的，我今天一整天都跟埃隆在一起。

Like, as you know, I spent the day with with Elon today.

他刚给了我一撮烧焦的头发。

He just gave me this burnt hair.

你知道这是什么吗？

Do you know what this is?

我完全搞不懂。

I have no idea.

我敢说，这事儿绝对值得做一期《胡伯曼实验室》的节目。

I'm sure there's actually there's it should be a Huberman Lab episode on this.

这是一种烧焦头发味的古龙水。

It's a cologne that's burnt hair

原来如此。

I see.

据说这味道特别浓烈，确实够呛。

And it's, like, supposedly a really intense smell, and it is.

让我闻的话。

For me to smell.

拜托，这味道根本消不掉。

Please, it's not gonna leave your nose.

没关系。

That's okay.

嗯，没关系。

Well, that's okay.

我轻轻闻一下就好，总不能直接凑上去猛吸。

I'll take a gentle I'll whiff it as if I were I can't just

你亲自试试，我不确定你能不能感受到

it on yourself because I don't know if you can

我正在读一本特别棒的书，是的

So I'm reading an amazing book Yeah.

叫《浩瀚世界》，作者是爱德·杨

Called an immense world by Ed Young.

他凭《我们包含万千》拿过普利策奖，大概是那本书

He won a Pulitzer for We Contain Multitudes or something like that.

对

Mhmm.

我觉得那才是另一本书的书名

I think it's the title of the other book.

第一章讲的是嗅觉，以及嗅觉有多么惊人

And this first chapter is all about olfaction and the incredible power that olfaction has.

这味道真难闻

That smells terrible.

我简直不知道该说什么了

I don't even I don't

我不信你。

believe you.

对听我们说话的人说一句，这味道其实没那么难闻。

For the for those listening, it doesn't quite smell terrible.

只是特别浓烈，而且挥之不去。

It's just intense, and it stays with you.

这对我来说，就像是在嘲笑这一切的荒谬。

This this to me represents, like, just laughing at the absurdity of it all.

所以我得问一下。

So I have to ask.

你最近在练柔术吗？

So you were rolling jiu jitsu?

是的。

Yeah.

我们在练柔术。

We're training jiu jitsu.

对。

Yeah.

所以，埃隆和那个谁的那场打斗真会发生吗？

So is that fight between Elon and and actually gonna happen?

我觉得埃隆特别相信这么个观点：最有趣的结果往往最可能发生。

I think Elon is a huge believer of this idea of the most entertaining outcome is the most likely.

他几乎觉得，根本不存在什么自由意志，宇宙就像有个引力场，专门把事情往最热闹的方向拽，而他只是这场游戏里的一个玩家。

And he almost like, there is almost the sense that there's not a free will, and the universe has a kind of deterministic gravitational field pulling towards the most fun, and he's just the player in that game.

从这个角度看，我觉得这种事迟早会发生。

So from that perspective, I think it seems like something like that is inevitable.

就像在Facebook停车场里来点小摩擦那种？

Like a like a little scrap in the parking lot of Facebook or something like that?

没错。

Exactly.

不好意思。

Sorry.

Meta。

Meta.

是的。

Yeah.

但看起来他们是在认真训练，祖克也参加过柔术比赛，对吧？

But it looks like they're they're training for real, and Zuk has competed, right, in jiu jitsu.

我觉得他是把这当一项运动来对待。

So I think he is approaching it as a sport.

对。

Yeah.

伊兰则是把它当成一场表演。

Ilan is approaching it as a spectacle.

而且，从他谈论的方式来看，他非常热爱历史。

And, I mean, the way he talks about it, he's a huge fan of history.

他总是谈起历史上那些曾经浴血奋战的战士们。

He talks about all the warriors that have fought throughout history.

你瞧，他真想在斗兽场里来一场真正的对决。

If you look, he wants to really do it at the Colosseum.

你知道吗？斗兽场存在了四百年，我去过那儿，关于它的记载多得数不清。

And, you know, the Colosseum is for four hundred years, I was there's so many so much great writing about this.

我觉得光是角斗士，就有超过四十万人死在了斗兽场里。

I think over 400,000 people have died in the Colosseum, gladiators.

这是一个充满鲜血、恐惧和战争期待的历史之地，一切都那么沉重。

So this is this historic place that sheds so much blood, so much fear, so much anticipation of battle, all of this.

所以他特别喜欢这种盛大的表演场面。

So he loves this kind of spectacle

对。

Mhmm.

还有那种荒诞的网络梗——两个科技巨头在沙地上打斗，而那里曾经是角斗士拼死搏杀、狮子和熊吞噬囚徒的地方。

And also the the meme of it, the hilarious absurdity of it, the two tech CEOs battling it out on sand in a place where gladiators fought to the death, then bears and lions ate prisoners as part of the execution process.

不过这还意味着

Well, it's also

马克·扎克伯格和埃隆·马斯克会在那里流血。

gonna be an instance where Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk has changed bodily fluids.

他们会流血。

They bleed.

你知道吗，打斗有这么一件事。

There's one thing about fighting, you know?

我觉得那本书里提过。

I think it was in that book.

有本特别好的书叫《战士之心》，里面讲到打拳时那种近距离的互动。

It's a great book, Fighter's Heart, where he talks about, you know, sort of the intimacy of of sparring.

我只跟你练过一次柔术，但以前我确实练过拳击，不过我不推荐你去试。

I have I only rolled jujitsu with you once, but there was a period of time where I boxed and which I don't recommend.

我挨打了。

I got hit.

我确实打过不少人，也挨了不少打。

I did hit some guys and I definitely got hit back.

我住在圣地亚哥的时候，每周三晚上都会去打对练。

I'd spar on Wednesday nights when I lived on San Diego.

和人对练的时候，哪怕对方把你打疼了，尤其是打疼了你，之后你还是会见到他，那种感觉真的很特别。

And, you know, when you spar with somebody, even if they hurt you, especially if they hurt you, you know, you see that person afterwards and there's a there's an intimacy.

对吧？

Right?

就是那本书《拳手之心》里提到的，你跟一个陌生人交换着体液。

You're it was it was in that book Fighter's Heart where he explains, you know, you're exchanging bodily fluids with a stranger.

对吧？

Right?

那时候你的原始本能会被唤醒。

And there's a you're in your primitive mind.

所以这种特殊的联结，会一直持续下去。

And so there's an intimacy there that that persists.

你们一起经历了一段恐惧的过程，是的。

You go together through a process of fear Mhmm.

还有焦虑，比如……

Anxiety, like

对。

Yeah.

当他们打中你的时候，你会点头。

And when they get you, you nod.

我的意思是，你看着别人，比如说，不是职业比赛里那样，但在对练时，如果对方打中你了，你就会承认他打中了你。

I mean, you watch somebody, like, catch somebody if, you know, not so much in professional fighting, but if people are sparring and they they catch you, you you acknowledge that they caught you.

就像说，你这一下打得好。

Like, like, you got me there.

反过来，我们训练完之后，就会一起打《暗黑破坏神4》。

And on the flip side of that, so we trained and then after that, we played Diablo four.

我不太清楚那是什么游戏。

I don't know what that is.

我不玩电子游戏。

I don't play video games.

不好意思。

Sorry.

但这确实是个电子游戏。

But it's a video game.

也就是说，游戏里的战斗特别激烈。

So it's like it's a, you know, pretty intense combat in the video.

你得跟恶魔打斗，嗯，就是那样。

You know, you're fighting like demons and Okay.

太没意思了。

Trash.

我上一次玩的游戏是《迈克·泰森的拳击》。

Last video game I played was Mike Tyson's punch out.

这不就对了。

There you go.

我最近见过他，挺有意思的。

That's pretty I met him recently.

他上过他的播客。

It went on his podcast.

你等等，你先别急。

You want you want wait.

还没发布呢。

It hasn't come out yet.

哦，还没发布啊，明白了。

Oh, it hasn't come out Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我问过迈克了。

I asked Mike.

他的孩子都很棒。

His kids are great.

他们进来了。

They came in there.

这些孩子特别聪明。

They're super smart kids.

天哪。

Goodness gracious.

他们问的问题都很棒。

They ask great questions.

你去问问迈克，他怎么处理那个咬下来的供应商耳朵碎片的。

Ask Mike what he did with the piece of a vendor's ear that that he bit off.

他记得吗？

Did he remember?

他说，让那人回去找他。

He's like, get back to him.

给你。

Here you go.

不好意思啊。

Sorry about that.

他卖一些做成耳朵形状的食品，还咬掉一小口，看起来像真被咬过一样。

He sells edibles that are in the shape of ears with a little bite out of it.

是的。

Yeah.

他的生活简直太精彩了。

That his his life has been incredible.

我和他认识，没错。

He's and I met yeah.

他的家人，你能感觉到他们真的是一户特别好的家庭。

He he his family are you get the sense that they're really a great family.

他们真的是迈克·泰森？

They're really Mike Tyson?

对。

Mhmm.

这真是一个人了不起的人生经历。

That's a heck of a journey right there of a man.

没错。

Yeah.

我的朋友蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗，我之前提过，他来自拉姆西，说得最到位。

My now friend, Tim Armstrong, like I said, leads here from Ramsey, he put it best.

他说，迈克·泰森的人生，简直就是一部莎士比亚戏剧。

He said, you know, that Mike Tyson's life is, you know, Shakespearean.

确实如此。

Mhmm.

起起落落，跌宕起伏。

And, you know, down, up, down, up.

他的人生轨迹，也像极了那种只有在美国才可能发生的故事。

And just that the arcs of his life are just like sort of an only in America kind of tale too.

对吧？

Right?

说到莎士比亚，我最近认识了尼莉·奥克曼，她是一位在自然与工程交叉领域工作的杰出科学家。

So speaking of Shakespeare, I recently gotten to know Neri Oxman, who's this incredible scientist that works at the intersection of nature and engineering.

她让我想起了一句安娜·阿赫玛托娃的诗。

And she reminded me of this Anna Akhmatova line.

这位上世纪的苏联诗人我很喜欢，她说，我们每个人的一生都是一场奔向千度高温的莎士比亚式戏剧。

This is this great Soviet poet that I really love from over a century ago, that each of our lives is a Shakespearean drama race to the thousand degree.

所以我得问你，你认为人类为什么会被这种莎士比亚式的戏剧吸引呢？

So I have to ask, why do you think humans are attracted to this kind of Shakespearean drama?

对。

Mhmm.

我们刚才聊到潜意识，是不是有什么东西在驱使我们追求戏剧性，即使心理健康追求的是平静？

Is there some aspect we've been talking about the subconscious mind that that pulls us towards the drama even though the place of mental health is peace?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

And yes.

你也有这种倾向吗？

Do you have some of that?

一种对戏剧性的吸引。

A draw towards drama.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你看看实际的数据。

If you look at the empirical data.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，确实如此。

I mean, it that right.

如果看实际数据，我就想到我大学时选择为谁工作。

If I look at the empirical data, I mean, I think about who I chose to work for as an undergraduate.

对吧？

Right?

我当时刚勉强高中毕业，终于上了大学，但状态真的很差——说实话，这根本不是什么值得羡慕的经历。

I was at you know, barely finished high school, finally get to college, barely I I think I this is really embarrassing and and not something to aspire to.

你知道吗，我因为打架被赶出了宿舍。

You know, was, you know, thrown out of the dorms for fighting.

真不错。

Nice.

课程勉强才及格。

Barely passed my classes.

我和女朋友分手了。

You know, the the girlfriend and I split up.

我住在宿舍里，还卷入了一场大架。

I mean, I was living in a squad, got into big fight.

我当时还总跟法律过不去。

I was getting in trouble with the law.

后来我总算醒悟了，重新回学校，开始给人打工。

I eventually got my act together, go back to school, start working for somebody.

我该选择为谁工作呢？

Who do I choose to work for?

一个前海军人员，总在通风橱里抽烟，喝着咖啡，我们给大鼠注射MDMA。

A guy who's an ex Navy guy who smokes cigarettes in the fume hood, drinks coffee, and we're injecting rats with MDMA.

是的。

Yeah.

我被他吸引，不只是因为他的个性和能量，他还是一位出色的科学家，深入研究过大脑的热调节机制等等。

And I was drawn to it like the personality, his energy, but I also he was a great scientist, worked out a lot on thermal regulation in the brain and more.

你懂的，读研时我跟着一个人做研究，后来发现，待在她实验室里并不适合我。

You know, go to graduate school, I'm working for somebody and decide that, yeah, doing working in her laboratory wasn't quite right for me.

于是我干脆偷偷溜到隔壁实验室，转去帮隔壁那位女老师做事，因为我欣赏她对待某些问题的方式，她本人也很有个性。

So I'm literally sneaking into the laboratory next door and working for the woman next door because I like the relationships that she had to a certain set of questions and she was a kind of a quirky person.

你知道的。

You know?

我就是被这种戏剧性吸引，也特别喜欢有特点的人。

So drawn to drama, but drawn to I like characters.

对。

Mhmm.

我喜欢有层次感的人。

I like people that have texture.

是的。

Yeah.

我不被纯粹的野心吸引。

And I'm not drawn to raw ambition.

我更看重那些真正热爱自己事业、并且独具个性的人，说白了，就是能感受到他们内心的那份热忱。

I'm drawn to people that seem to have a real passion for what they do and a uniqueness to them that I I, you know, you can kind of not kind of, I'll just say how it is.

我能感受到他们对工作的那份真心，这正是吸引我的地方。

I can feel their heart for what they do and I'm I'm drawn to that.

比如，那种特质是好的。

Like and that can be good.

这也是我后来去本·巴里斯实验室做博士后的原因。

The same reason I went to work for Ben Barris as a postdoc.

并不是因为他是美国国家科学院第一位跨性别成员。

It wasn't because he was the first transgender member of the National Academy of Sciences.

那只是他身份的一个方面。

That was just a feature of who he was.

我特别喜欢他对胶质细胞的那种热爱。

I love how he loved glia.

他谈起这些细胞时，就像在说他这辈子见过最迷人的东西。

He would talk about these cells like they were the most enchanting things that he'd ever seen in his life.

我当时就想，这真是我见过最 geek 的人了，但我就是喜欢他。

And I was like, this is like the biggest nerd I've ever met, and I love him.

我觉得我就是被这种特质吸引。

I think we're I'm drawn to that.

康蒂在即将推出的那档心理健康系列节目中也深入谈过这一点，我们内心其实有不同的驱动力。

This is another thing that Conti makes elaborates on quite a bit more in the series on mental health coming out, but there are different drives within us.

有一种是攻击性的驱动力，但不一定是用来打架的，而是指向强烈的互动。

There's this there are aggressive drives, not always for fighting, but for intense interaction.

我的意思是，在推特上。

I mean, at Twitter.

看看那些人，明显有着强烈的攻击性冲动。

Look at some of the look at people clearly have an aggressive drive.

还有一种愉悦的冲动。

There's also a pleasure drive.

有些人也有很强的愉悦冲动。

Some people also have a strong pleasure drive.

他们希望通过美食、性、友谊和冒险来获得愉悦。

They want to experience pleasure through food, through sex, through friendship, through adventure.

你懂的。

You know?

但我认为，莎士比亚式的戏剧，正是不同冲动以不同比例在不同人身上的冲突。

But I think the Shakespearean drama is the drama of the different drives in different ratios and different people.

对。

Mhmm.

我认识一个人，她特别善良。

I I know somebody, and she's incredibly kind.

她的愉悦驱动力非常强。

Has an extremely high pleasure drive.

她特别注重照顾自己和身边的人，通过美食、疗养和各种方式，走到哪儿就把环境布置得美美的，还总送人礼物，都是那种特别细腻、充满女性气质又令人惊叹的东西，而且每一份都懂对方喜欢什么。

Loves taking great care of herself and people around her through food and through retreats and through all these things and makes spaces beautiful everywhere she goes and is gifts these things that are just so unbelievably feminine and and incredible, these gifts to people, and they're kind and thoughtful about what they like.

但据我观察，她的攻击性驱动力几乎可以忽略不计。

And then but I would say very little aggressive drive from my read.

我也认识另一些人，攻击性驱动力超强，愉悦驱动力却很弱。

And then I know other people who are just have a ton of aggressive drive and very little pleasure drive.

我觉得人身上这些驱动力的配比就像一种化学反应，再加上染色体、荷尔蒙、个人经历的差异，全都搅在一起。

And I think so there's this alchemy that exists where people have these things in different ratios, and then you blend in, you know, the differences in the chromosomes and differences in hormones and differences in personal history.

最后造就的，是一种能创造出极致戏剧性，也能带来平静、解脱和满足感的物种。

And what you end up with is a species that creates incredible recipes of drama, but also peace, also relief from drama, contentment.

我知道这不完全贴合你刚才的问题，但我有个特别亲近的人——其实是我的前女友，也是我长期的伴侣——最近给我发了点东西。

I mean, I realize this isn't the exact topic of the question, but someone I know very dearly, actually, an ex girlfriend of mine, long term partner of mine, sent me something recently.

我觉得这句话说到点子上了，对男人来说，最终他们都会找到一个能让自己内心平静的地方。

I think it hit the nail on the head, which is that ideally, for a man, they eventually settle where they find and feel peace.

对。

Mhmm.

一个能让自己放松、做真实自己的地方，感受到真正的安宁。

Where they feel peaceful, where they can be themselves and feel peaceful.

我相信对女性来说也存在类似的反面，但她发给我的这篇帖子讲的是男性。

Now, I'm sure there's a equivalent to our mirror image of that for women, but this particular post that she sent was about men.

我完全同意。

And I totally agree.

所以，我们并不总是追求冲突。

And so it isn't always that we're seeking friction.

但在人生的某些阶段，我们确实会渴望冲突、戏剧、冒险、刺激、争执，做一些特别艰难的事情。

But for periods of our life, we seek friction, drama, adventure, excitement, fights, you know, and doing hard hard things.

我觉得到了某个时候，我现在就正处在这样一个阶段，觉得这些经历都挺棒的，也实现了不少目标。

And then I think at some point, I'm certainly coming to this point now where it's like, yeah, that's all great and checked a lot of boxes.

但我们都经历过好多次惊险时刻，生活中好多事都差点搭上性命、健康，甚至精神，有些我们亲近的人也没能挺过来。

But had a lot of close calls, flew really close to the sun on a lot of things with life and limb and and part and spirit, and some of, you know, people close to us didn't make it.

有时候‘没挺过来’，指的是他们梦想的职业突然崩塌，或者健康急转直下，又或者整个人生彻底垮了。

And sometimes not making it means their the career they wanted went off a cliff, or the the their health went off a cliff, or their life went off a cliff.

但我觉得，也像莎士比亚戏剧里那样，有些角色退场了，却在背景中过着平静幸福的生活。

But I think that there's also the Shakespearean drama of the characters that exit the play and are living their lives happily in the backdrop.

只是这种生活，不太能吸引人关注罢了。

It just doesn't make for as much entertainment.

这其实也是年纪大了的一个好处。

That's one other thing that's a benefit.

可以说，随着年龄增长，我们越来越不迷恋那些戏剧性的冲突，反而更享受内心的平静。

You could say it's a benefit of getting older, is finding the Shakespearean drama less appealing or finding the joy in the peace.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

我的意思是，我觉得

I mean, I think that

随着年龄增长，真的能体会到一种平静。

I think there's real peace with age.

还有一点，就是完成任务这种想法，对我而言确实挺重要的。

I think the other thing is this notion of checking boxes is a real thing, for me anyway.

我每天早上都会进行冥想。

I I have a morning meditation that I do.

现在我一醒来，就会晒太阳、补水、上厕所，把平时说的那些事都一一做完。

Well, I wake up now, I get my sunlight, I hydrate, I use the bathroom, I do all the the things that I talk about.

过去一年，我开始养成祷告的习惯，这对我来说是新尝试，咱们改天早上可以聊聊。

I've I've started a practice of prayer in the last year, which is new ish for me, which is we could talk about in the morning.

是的。

Yeah.

你能说说这个吗？

Can you talk about it