#426 – 爱德华·吉布森：人类语言、心理语言学、句法、语法与大型语言模型

具体是怎么构建的？

How do you construct?

难度有多大？

How hard is it?

从句子构建一棵树的过程是

What is the process of constructing a tree from

怎样的？

a sentence?

嗯，这个嘛，根据不同的理论框架，说法会有所不同。

Well, this is where, you know, depending on what your there's different theoretical notions.

我先说个最简单的。

I'm gonna say the simplest thing.

对。

Mhmm.

依存语法。

Dependency grammar.

这其实是好几个人各自想出来的。

It's like a bunch of people invented this.

最早是位法国人，论文虽然发表于1959年，但他其实早在三十年代就开始研究了。

Was the first French guy back in I mean, the paper was published in 1959, but he was working on the thirties and stuff.

再往前推，古印度的语言学家皮尼尼就已经在做类似的事了。

So and and it goes back to, you know, philologist Pinini was doing this in ancient India.

明白吧？

Okay?

所以，像这样的做法，

And so, you know, doing something like this.

最简单的想法就是，词语之间直接建立联系，构成完整的表达。

The simplest thing we can think of is that there's just connections between the words to make the the utterance.

比如说，我有两只狗走进了房间。

And so let's just say I have, like, two dogs entered a room.

对吧？

Okay.

这是一个句子。

Here's a sentence.

所以我们把‘和’跟‘狗’连在一起。

And so we're connecting to and dogs together.

对。

Mhmm.

这就意味着这两个词之间存在某种依存关系，才能构成更大的意义，接着我们把‘狗’和‘进入’连起来。

That's like there's some dependency between those words to make some bigger meaning, And then we're connecting dogs now to entered.

没错。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

然后我们把‘房间’和‘进入’也关联起来。

And we connect a room somehow to entered.

所以我要把‘和’连到‘房间’，再把‘房间’连回‘进入’。

And so I'm gonna connect to room and then room back to entered.

这棵树就是这样的。

This is that's the tree.

根节点是‘entered’。

Is I the the root is entered.

这个东西其实是一个进入事件。

That's the the thing is like an entering event.

我们说的就是这个意思。

That's what we're saying here.

主语是那只狗，实际上指的是两只狗，这个关联又回溯到‘dogs’，再回到‘two’。

And the the subject, which is whatever that dog is, is two dogs, it was, and and the connection goes back to dogs, which goes back to then then that that goes back to two.

这就是我的树结构。

I'm just that that's my tree.

它从‘entered’开始，往下连到‘dogs’，再连到‘two’；另一边，动词之后的宾语连到‘room’，然后又回溯到那个限定词，也就是‘a’这样的词。

It it starts at entered, goes to dogs down to two, and on the other side, after the verb, the object, it goes to room, and then that goes back to the the determiner or article, whatever you wanna call that word a.

我们注意到这里涉及很多词类。

So there's a bunch of categories of words here we're noticing.

所以这里有动词。

So there are verbs.

动词通常表示世界中的事件或状态，而名词通常指人、地点和事物——这是人们常说的，但名词其实也能指事件本身。

Those are these things that typically mark they refer to events and states in the world, and they're nouns, which typically refer to people, places, and things is what people say, but they can refer to other more they can refer to events themselves as well.

词的词类是怎么确定的呢？就是看它在语言里怎么用。

They're they're they're marked by, you know, how they how they get you what what the category, the part of speech of a word is how it gets used in language.

也就是说，判断一个词属于哪种类别，就是看它的用法。

It's like, that's how you decide what the what the category of a word is.

不是靠意思，而是靠它在句子里怎么使用。

Not not by the meaning, but how it's how it gets used.

原来是这样用的。

Oh, it's used.

对。

Yeah.

通常哪个是核心词呢？

What's usually the root?

是动词来定义这个事件吗？

Is it gonna be the verb that defines the event?

通常是的。

Usually.

通常是的。

Usually.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

明白了。

Okay.

没错。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果我不用动词，那就不会有动词，而会变成别的东西。

I mean, if I don't say a verb, then there won't be a verb until it'll be something else.

那如果你在玩语言，我们说的是不是那种规范的语言？

What if you're messing are we talking about language that's like correct language?

那如果你在写诗，故意折腾语言呢？

What if you're doing poetry and messing with stuff?

那规则是不是就全不管用了？

Is it then then rules go out the window.

对吧？

Right?

但其实不是。

And then it's No.

你还是得遵守规则。

You're still No.

不对。

No.

不行。

No.

你总是受限于你所使用的那种语言。

You're constrained by whatever language you're dealing with.

写诗的时候，通常还有其他限制，比如你往往想表达多重含义，可能还要兼顾节奏或押韵结构。

Probably, you have other constraints in poetry such that you're like, usually in poetry, there's multiple constraints that you want to like, wanna usually convey multiple meanings is the idea, and maybe you have, like, a rhythm or a rhyming structure as well.

虽然情况因语言而异，但大多数时候你还是得遵守语言本身的规则，不能随意打破。

And depending so but you usually are constrained by your the rules of your language for the most part, and so you don't violate those too much.

你可以稍微突破一下，但不能太过分，否则别人就认不出这是你的语言了。

You can violate them somewhat, but not too much, so it has to be recognizable as your language.

比如在英语里，我不能说 'dogs too entered room ah' 这种话。

Like, in English, I can't say dogs too entered room ah.

我的意思是，我想表达的是 '两只狗进了房间'，但语序、冠词和名词的搭配是不能乱改的。

I mean, I meant, you know, two dogs entered a room, and I I I can't mess with the order of the the articles, the articles and the nouns.

这种基本结构，真的动不得。

You just can't do that.

不过在某些语言里，词序的灵活性要大得多。

In some languages, you can you can mess around with the order of words much more.

我的意思是，你说俄语。

I mean, you speak Russian.

对。

Mhmm.

俄语的词序比英语自由多了。

Russian has a much freer word order than English.

事实上，你可以调整词序，就像我之前说的，英语和俄语都讲究主谓宾结构，但俄语的灵活性要大得多。

And so in fact, you can move around words in you know, I told you that English has a subject verb object word order, so does Russian, but Russian is much freer than English.

所以你完全可以灵活调整词序。

And so you can actually mess around with the word order.

因此，俄语诗歌很可能和英语诗歌很不一样，因为词序的限制少得多。

So probably Russian poetry is gonna be quite different from English poetry because the word order is much less constrained.

是的。

Yeah.

在过去一百多年里，俄罗斯的诗歌文化要丰富得多，我一直好奇这是为什么，但看来是因为这种语言的使用方式更灵活。

There's a much more extensive culture of poetry throughout the history of the last hundred years in Russia, and I I was always wondered why that is, but it seems that there's more flexibility in the way the language is used.

你还可以通过改变词汇、调整词序来更自由地塑造语言。

There's more you're morphing the language easier by altering the words, altering the order of the words, messing with it.

每种语言其实都有各自可以玩味的地方。

Well, you can just mess with different things in each language.

俄语里有格标记，就是名词末尾的词尾变化，用来表明每个名词和动词之间的关系。

And so in Russian, you have case markers, right, on the end which are just these endings on the nouns, which tell you how it connects each noun connects to the verb.

对吧？

Right?

英语里没有这种东西。

We don't have that in English.

比如我说‘玛丽吻了约翰’，除了靠词序，我根本分不清谁是施事、谁是受事。

And so when I say, Mary kissed John, I don't know who the agent or the patient is except by the order of the words.

对吧？

Right?

在俄语里，词尾其实会直接标出来。

In in Russian, you actually have a marker on the end.

如果你在这些名字里用俄语形式，就会注意到，比如主语用主格，宾语用宾格。

If you're using a Russian name in each of those names, you'll also say, is it, you know, agent it'll be the, you know, nominative, which is marking the subject, or an accusative will mark the object.

你甚至可以把顺序反过来。

And you could put them in the reverse order.

你可以把宾格放前面，主格放后面，比如把受事放在动词前，施事放在后面，这样的俄语句子完全成立，意思还是‘玛丽亲了约翰’，只要格标记用对了就行。

You could put accusative first as you could put subject you could put the patient first, and then the verb, and then the the the subject, and that would be a perfectly good Russian sentence, and it would still mean Mary I could say John kissed Mary, meaning Mary kissed John as long as I use the case markers in the right way.

英语可做不到这一点。

You can't do that in English.

所以我特别喜欢

And so I love

“施事”和“受事”这种说法，

the terminology of agent and patient,

没错。

and Yeah.

还有你刚才提到的那些术语。

And the other ones you used.

这些都是一些语言学上的术语吧。

Those are sort of linguistic terms.

对吧？

Correct?

这些词主要是用来表达意思的。

Those are those are for, like, kind of meaning.

它们讲的就是语义。

Those are meaning.

而主语和宾语通常指的是语序位置。

And and subject and object are generally used for position.

主语就是出现在动词前面的那个成分，宾语则是出现在动词后面的那个。

So subject is just like the thing that comes before the the verb, and the object is the one that comes after the verb.

施事呢，大概就是那个执行动作的人或物。

The agent is kinda like the thing doing.

差不多就是这个意思。

It that's kinda what that means.

对吧？

Right?

主语通常是执行动作的人。

The the the subject is often the person doing the action.

对吧？

Right?

就是那个东西。

The thing.

所以是这样。

So, yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

这太有趣了。

This is fascinating.

那一般来说，构建语法树难不难？

So how hard is it to form a tree in general?

这中间有没有什么固定流程？

Is there is there a procedure to it?

比如你看不同语言，这事儿是不是很自然就能搞定，能自动化，还是得靠人类的聪明才智？

Like, if you look at different languages, is it supposed to be a very natural like, is it automatable, or is there some human genius involved in this?

我觉得现在基本上已经可以自动化了。

I think it's pretty automatable at this point.

人们能识别出各个单词。

People can figure out what the words are.

还能找出词素，严格来说，词素就是语言里最小的意义单位。

They can figure out the morphemes, which are the technically, morphemes are the the minimal meaning units within a language.

明白吗？

Okay?

比如英文里的‘eats’或者‘drinks’，其实包含两个词素。

And so when you say eats or drinks, it actually has two morphemes in in English.

一个是动词本身，另一个是词尾，用来表示第三人称单数的形式。

There's there's the there's the root, which is the verb, and then there's some ending on it, which tells you, you know, that's this third person third person singular.

是的

Are?

语素就是语言中最小的意义单位。

Morphemes are just the minimal meaning units within a language.

而词呢，就是英语里我们用空格隔开的部分，它包含的内容更多一些。

And then a word is just kind of the things we put spaces between in English, and they have a little bit more.

它还带有词形变化。

They have the morphology as well.

词尾还带有屈折变化。

They have the endings, this inflectional morphology on the endings

在词根上。

on the roots.

它们会改变词的某些方面，从而

They modify something about the word that Yeah.

增添额外的含义。

Adds additional meaning.

它们会告诉你，没错。

They tell you yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以英语里其实也有一点点这种特征，但非常少。

And so we have a little bit of that in English, very little.

比如俄语里就多得多。

Have much more in Russian, for instance.

不过英语里还是有一点，主要体现在名词上。

And and but we have a little bit in English, and so we have a little on the on the nouns.

名词可以表示单数或复数，动词也是一样。

You can say it's either singular or plural, and and you can say same thing for for for verbs.

比如简单过去时，你知道的，看英语里我们说 'drinks'。

Like, simple past tense, for example, so, you know, notice in English, we say drinks.

你知道吧，他说的是 drinks，但其他人都是 I drink、you drink、we drink。

You know, he drinks, but everyone else is I drink, you drink, we drink.

某种程度上，它根本没变化。

It's unmarked in in a way.

到了过去式，所有人都是用 drank，完全一样。

And then but in the past tense, it's just drank for everyone.

过去式根本没有任何词形变化。

There's no morphology at all for past tense.

如果有变化的话，那也只是标记过去时，但现在已经变成不规则形式了。

It's if there is morphology, it's marking past tense, but it's kind of it's an irregular now.

所以我们根本不会说 drink 到 drank 这样的变化。

So we don't even you know, drink to drink.

你明白吧？

You know?

它连个规则词都算不上。

It's not even a regular word.

大多数动词，很多动词，我们都会加个-ed。

So in most verbs, many verbs, there's an e d we kinda add.

比如 walk 变成 walked。

So walk to walked.

加这个就是为了表示过去时。

We add that to say it's the past tense.

我刚好选了个不规则动词，因为它是高频词，英语里高频词往往都有不规则形式。

That I just happened to choose an irregular because it's a high frequency word, and the high frequency words tend to have irregulars in English for

什么是不规则动词？

What's an irregular?

不规则就是没规律可循。

Irregular is just stuff.

没有固定规则。

There's there isn't a rule.

drink 变成 drank 就是个不规则变化。

So drink to drink is an is an irregular.

喝，喝了。

Drink, drank.

明白了。

Okay.

懂了。

Okay.

比如走变成了walked，talk变成了talked，这种情况就不一样。

For As opposed to walk, walked, talked

对。

Yeah.

Talked。

Talked.

英语里有很多不规则动词。

And there's a lot of irregulars in English.

英语里确实有很多不规则动词。

There's a lot of irregulars in English.

最常用、出现频率高的词往往都是不规则的。

The the the frequent ones, the common words tend to be irregular.

还有很多低频词。

There's many many more low frequency words

是的。

Yeah.

而这些词通常是规则的。

And those tend to be those are regular ones.

不规则词的演变过程非常有趣。

The evolution of the irregulars are fascinating.

确实如此。

It is.

本质上就是一些流传下来的俚语。

It's essentially slang that's sticky.

对。

Mhmm.

因为你打破了规则，结果大家都这么用，也不按规矩来了。

Because you're breaking the rules, and then everybody use it and doesn't follow the rules.

对。

Yeah.

他们还说，管他什么规则呢。

And they they say, screw it to the rules.

对。

Yeah.

这真有意思。

It's fascinating.

你刚才提到语素，有很多关联。

So you said it morphemes, lots of connections.

那形态学到底是什么？

So morphology is what?

就是研究语素的学问吗？

The study of morphemes?

形态学就是词根和词素之间的联系，也就是词根本身。

Morphology is the is the connections between the morphemes onto the roots, the roots.

在英语里，我们主要用后缀。

So in English, we mostly have suffixes.

单词后面会加一些结尾，虽然不多，但确实有一些。

We have endings on the words, not very much, but a little bit.

而像前缀这种，不同语言的情况不一样，有的主要用前缀，有的主要用后缀，也有的两者都有。

And as opposed to prefixes, Some words, depending on your language, can have, you know, mostly prefixes, mostly suffixes, or mostly or or both.

还有一些语言，比如好几种语言，会用中缀，就是词根有个基本形式，然后在中间插入东西。

And then even languages several languages have things called infixes, where you have some kind of a general form for the for the root, and you put stuff in the middle.

通过改变元音来实现。

You change the vowels.

这真有意思。

That's fascinating.

对。

Yeah.

这太有意思了。

That's fascinating.

等等。

So wait.

一般来说，每个词大概有两个语素吗？

So in general, there's, what, two morphemes per word?

通常是有一个、两个，还是三个？

Usually, one or two or three?

在英语里，通常是一个或两个。

Well, in English, it's it's it's one or two.

在英语里，一般就是一个或两个。

In English, it tends to be one or two.

也可能更多。

There can be more.

比如芬兰语这种形态变化特别复杂的语言，一个词根后面可能加上十个语素。

You know, in in other languages, you know, a language like like Finnish, which has a very elaborate morphology, there may be 10 morphemes on the end of a root.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以一个词可能会有上百万种形式。

And so there may be million there'll be millions of forms of a given word.

明白吗？

Okay?

好的。

Okay.

我会一遍又一遍问同样的问题，但只是为了搞清楚——嗯，像词素这样的东西，到底是怎么来的。

So I I will ask the same question over and over, but how does the just sometimes to understand Mhmm.

像词素这类概念，最好时不时问问：这类东西是怎么演变出来的？

Things like morphemes, it's nice to just ask the question, how does these kinds of things evolve?

你写了一本很棒的书，研究认知处理、语言如何用于交流，还有语言在沟通效率上的数学原理，以及这些因素在语言演化中扮演的角色。

So you have a great book studying sort of the how how the cognitive processing, how language used for communication, so the the mathematical notion of how effective language is for communication, what role that plays in the evolution of language.

但简单来说，语言是怎么演变成这样的？比如英语一个词一到两个词素，而芬兰语却能堆出无数个？

But just high level, like, how do we how does a language evolve with where English is two morphemes or one or two morphemes per word, and then Finnish has infinity per word?

那这到底是怎么发生的呢？

So what how does that how does that happen?

只是因为人们吗？

Is it just people?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's a really good question.

对。

Yeah.

确实是个很关键的问题。

That's a very good question.

为什么有的语言词形变化多，有的却很少呢？

It's like, why do languages have more morphology versus less morphology?

我觉得我们目前还没有确切的答案。

And and I don't think we know the answer to this.

我认为，沟通这个问题其实有很多有效的解决方式。

I know I think there's just, like, a lot of good solutions to the problem of communication.

所以，就像你暗示的那样，我认为语言是人类为了表达思想而创造出来的一种系统。

So I, like, I believe, as you hinted, that language is an invented system by humans for communicating their ideas.

我觉得归根结底，我们会给那些想谈论的事物贴上标签。

And I think we it comes down to we label things we wanna talk about.

这些就是词素和词汇。

Those are the the the morphemes and words.

它们是我们想在世界上谈论的内容，而我们正是创造了这些东西。

Those are the things we wanna talk about in the world, and we invent those things.

然后我们会把它们组合成便于表达和理解的形式。

And then we put them together in ways that are easy for us to convey, to process.

但这其实是一种很天真的看法，我也不确定，不过我觉得大概是对的。

But that that that's like a naive view, and I don't I mean, I I think it's probably right.

对吧？

Right?

虽然天真，但很可能没错。

It's naive and probably right

嗯，这倒是提醒了我。

Well, that's the notice.

我不觉得这有什么天真。

I don't know if it's naive.

我觉得这很简单。

I think it's simple.

简单。

Simple.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得‘天真’也没问题。

I think naive is Okay.

行。

Okay.

说‘天真’，其实是暗示它哪里不对。

Naive is an indication that it's an incorrect somehow.

这只是一个微不足道的同意罢了。

It's a trivial Yeah.

太简单了。

Too too simple.

我觉得这完全可能是对的。

I think it could very well be correct.

是的。

Yeah.

但有意思的是，当两个人凑到一起时，这种感觉居然这么难改变。

But it's interesting how sticky it feels like two people got together.

一旦你掌握了某种语言的某些特点，它们就会牢牢粘住，围绕着这种语言的人群也就自然形成了。

It just it just feels like once you figure out certain aspects of a language, they just become sticky and the tribe forms around that language.

也许先是人群形成了，语言才随之演变，然后大家就默认接受了，再也不会轻易改变。

Maybe the language maybe the tribe forms first, then the language evolves, and then you just kind of agree and then you stick to whatever that is.

我的意思是，这些都是很有趣的问题。

I mean, are very interesting questions.

我们其实不太清楚词语——哪怕是词语——到底是怎么被创造出来的。假设它们真是被创造出来的，我们也并不真正了解这个过程是如何运作的，以及它们又是怎样演变的。

We don't know really about how words, even words, get invented very much about you know, we don't really I mean, assuming they get invented, they we don't really know how that process works and how these things evolve.

我们目前拥有的，只是几千种语言的当前状态，几千个实例的快照。

What we have is kind of a a current picture, a current picture of a few thousand languages, a few thousand instances.

我们根本没有真正看到过这些语言是如何演变的，一点都没有。

We don't have any pictures of really how these things are evolving, really.

而且，语言的演变还因为语言间的接触而变得特别混乱。

And and then the evolution is massively, con you know, confused by contact.

对吧？

Right?

一旦一个语言群体遇到另一个群体，人类就会变得特别聪明。

So as soon as one language group one group runs into another, we are smart.

人类很聪明，会主动采纳对方群体里任何有用的东西。

Humans are smart, and they take on whatever is useful in the other group.

所以，任何你觉得有帮助的差异，我也会开始用起来。

And so any kind of contrast which you're talking about, which I find useful, I'm gonna I'm gonna start using as well.

所以我之前专门研究过一些词类，比如数字词和颜色词。

So I I worked a little bit in in in specific areas of words, in in number words and in in color words.

在颜色词方面，英语里大概有十一个大家都熟知的颜色词，如果你对颜色特别感兴趣，还会知道更多。

And in color words, the so we have in English, we have around 11 words that everyone knows for colors and and many more if you happen to be interested in color for some reason or other.

比如你是时尚设计师或者艺术家，可能会用到成百上千个不同的颜色词。

If you're a fashion designer or an artist or something, you may have many, many more words.

但我们能分辨的颜色却有数百万种。

But we can see millions.

只要你有正常的三色视觉，就能区分出数百万种细微的颜色差异。

Like, if you have normal color vision, normal trichrometric color vision, you can see millions of distinctions in colors.

可我们并没有数百万个词来对应这些颜色。

So we don't have millions of words.

你知道，最高效的系统也不是这样。

You know, the most efficient no.

理论上，如果要精确区分我们能看到的所有颜色，颜色词汇可能需要上百万个术语，但显然我们并没有这么多。

So the most, you know, detailed color vocabulary would have over a million terms to distinguish all the different colors that we can see, but, of course, we don't have that.

所以英语里发展出这十一个颜色词，某种程度上挺实用的，比如黑、白、红、蓝、绿、黄、紫、灰、粉，我可能漏掉了一个。

So it's somehow it's been it's kind of useful for English to have have evolved in some way to such as there's 11 terms that people find useful to talk about, you know, black, white, red, blue, green, yellow, purple, gray, pink, and I probably missed something there.

总之，这十一个词是人人都知道的。

Anyway, there's there's 11 that everyone knows.

是的。

Yeah.

不过不同文化的情况不一样，尤其是非工业化社会，颜色词会少得多。

And and depending on your but you go to different cultures, especially the non industrialized cultures, and there'll be many fewer.

有些文化甚至只有两个，你可能不信。

So some cultures will have only two, believe it or not.

巴布亚新几内亚的达奈人就只有两个颜色词。

The Danai in in Papua New Guinea have only two labels that the that the group uses for color.

大致就是黑和白。

Those are roughly black and white.

他们用这两个词分别表示极深和极浅的颜色，差不多就是黑和白。

They are very, very dark and very, very light, which are roughly black and white.

你可能会想，他们是不是把整个色域简单分成了明和暗之类的，但其实不是这样。

And you might think, oh, they're dividing the whole color space into, you know, light and dark or something, and that's not really true.

他们主要就只给黑色和白色的东西贴标签。

They mostly just only label the light the black and the white things.

其他颜色，他们根本就不会去提。

They just don't talk about the colors for the other ones.

还有其他的族群。

And so and and then there's other groups.

我曾经和南美洲玻利维亚的一个叫奇曼尼的族群合作过，他们有三个所有人都知道的词，另外还有一些词，不少人也懂。

I worked with a group called the Chimani down in in Bolivia in South America, and they have three words that everyone knows, but there's a few others that are that that several people many people know.

所以，他们群体里知道的颜色词，大概在三个到七个之间，具体要看你怎么算。

And so they have may it's kinda depending on how you count between three and seven words that the group knows.

明白吗？

Okay?

而且，again，他们用的还是黑和白这两个词。

And and, again, they're they're black and white.

这些大家都懂。

Everyone knows those.

红色呢，通常是第三个被各个文化加入的词，这个挺常见的。

And red, red is, you know, you know, like, that tends to be the third word that everyone that that cultures bring in.

不错。

Nice.

如果有第四个词，那一定是红色。

If there's a word, it's always red, the third one.

再往后，就很难说他们会选什么颜色了。

And then after that, it's kind of all bets are off about what they bring in.

接下来，他们会把蓝和绿合并成一个大类。

And so after that, they they bring in a sort of a big blue green space groove.

对，就是这么个说法。

Groove.

他们确实有一个词来统称这个范围。

They have one for that.

然后不同的人会用不同的词来描述空间里的其他部分。

And then they and then, you know, different people have different words that they'll use for other parts of the space.

所以是这样。

And so Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不管怎样，这可能跟他们想表达的内容有关，而不是他们看到的颜色，毕竟他们看到的颜色跟我们是一样的。

Anyway, it's it's probably related to what they wanna talk what they not what they not what they see, because they see the same colors as we see.

他们并不是因为看到的颜色种类少，才用词有限。

So it's not like they have they don't they have a a a weak low a color palette in the things they're looking at.

他们看到的风景其实非常绚丽。

They're looking at a lot of beautiful scenery.

明白吗？

Okay?

各种颜色的花、浆果，还有很多其他东西。

A lot of different colored flowers and berries and things.

而且，很多东西颜色都很鲜艳，但他们就是不会给这些颜色专门起名字。

And, you know, and so there's lots of things of very bright colors, but they just don't label the color in those cases.

我们不太确定原因，但推测可能是：你之所以给某样东西命名，是因为你需要跟别人交流它。

And the reason probably we we don't know this, but we think probably what's going on here is that what you do why you label something is you need to talk to someone else about it.

那我为什么要谈论颜色呢？

And and why do I need to talk about a color?

假如我有两样东西一模一样，我想让你把不一样的那一个拿给我，而唯一区别就在于颜色，这时候我就会创造一个词，告诉你：我要的是这个。

Well, if I have two things which are identical, and I want you to give me the one that's different, and and the only way it varies is color, then I invent a word which tells you, you know, this is the one I want.

我要的是架子上那件红色的毛衣，不是绿色的那件。

So I want the red sweater off the rack, not the not the green sweater.

对吧？

Right?

有两件东西，它们完全一样，因为我们是批量生产、统一染色的，其他方面没有任何差别。

There's two and and so those those things will be identical because these are things we made and they're dyed, and then there's nothing different about them.

在工业化社会里，我们身边的东西，颜色基本上都是随便定的。

And so in in industrialized society, we have, you know, everything everything we've got is pretty much arbitrarily colored.

但如果你去一个非工业化社会的群体，情况就不是这样了。

But if you go to a nonindustrialized group, that's not true.

他们并不是突然对颜色没兴趣。

And so they don't suddenly, they're not interested in color.

如果你带些颜色鲜艳的东西给他们，他们也会像我们一样喜欢。

If you you bring bright colored things to them, they like them just like we like them.

鲜艳的颜色很棒。

Bright colors are great.

它们很漂亮。

They're beautiful.

是的，但他们就是没必要去谈论这些颜色。

They are but they just don't need to no need to talk about them.

他们不需要

They don't have

所以，颜色词汇很可能就是一个很好的例子，说明语言是如何根据实际交流需求发展出来的。

So probably color words is a good example of how language evolves from sort of function when you need to communicate the use of something

我也这么觉得。

I think so.

然后你就会慢慢创造出各种不同的表达方式。

And then then you kind of invent different variations.

基本上可以想象，语言的演变跟早期部落的生活方式息息相关。

And and basically, you can imagine that the evolution of a language has to do with what the early tribe is doing.

比如他们当时在忙什么，遇到了哪些问题，又怎么快速找到办法高效地沟通解决方案——不管是审美上的还是功能性的，比如逃命、追猎猛犸象之类的。

Like, what what they wanted what what kind of problems are facing them, and they're quickly figuring out how to efficiently communicate the solution to those problems, whether it's aesthetic or functional, all that kind of stuff, running away from a mammoth or whatever.

但问题是，我们其实缺乏语言演变的直接证据，因为很多语言都是很久以前形成的，那时候根本没有录音或记录。

But, you know, it's so so I think what you're pointing to is that we don't have data on the evolution of language because many languages are formed a long time ago, so you don't get the chatter.

不过我们还是能从古英语到现代英语的演变中看到一些痕迹，毕竟那时候已经有文字系统了，能查到古英语原本的样子。

We have a little bit of, like, old English to modern English because there was a writing system, and we can see how how old English looked.

比如词序的变化，从古英语到中古英语再到现代英语，这些转变我们都能看出来。

So the word order changed, for instance, in old English to middle English to modern English, and so it it you know, we could see things like that.

但大多数语言根本就没有文字系统。

But most languages don't even have a writing system.

七千种语言里，只有很小一部分有文字系统。

So of the 7,000, only, you know, a small subset of those have a writing system.

就算有文字系统，也不是现代的，所以也没法留下记录。

And even if they have a writing system, they it's not a very modern writing system, and so they don't have it.

我们主要只有汉语和英语有大量长期的证据，其他语言就很少了。

So we just basically have for Mandarin, for Chinese, we have a lot of a lot of evidence from from for a long time and for English, and not for much else.

德语稍微有一点，但绝大多数语言都缺乏长期演变的记录。

Not for in German a little bit, but not for a whole lot of, like, long term language evolution.

我们掌握的资料非常有限。

We don't have a lot.

我们能拿到的，只是当前语言的几张快照而已。

We just have snapshots is what we've got of current languages.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以从某些平台上的快速交流，比如Reddit，感受到一点这种变化。

I you get an inkling of that from the rapid communication on certain platforms, like on Reddit.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

不同的群体有不同的说法。

There's different communities.

没错。

Mhmm.

他们会创造出各自的俚语。

And they'll come up with different slang.

从我的角度看，这些俚语往往带着点幽默、调侃，或者就是纯粹瞎聊，各种花样百出。

Usually, from my perspective, driven by a little bit of humor or maybe mockery or whatever it is, you know, just talking shit in different kinds of ways.

你能在那儿看到语言的演变。

And you could see the evolution of language there.

因为我觉得网上很多东西，大家都不想显得俗气、随大流。

Because I think a lot of things on the Internet, you don't want to be the boring mainstream.

所以人们就刻意跟标准说法不一样，对吧。

So you, like, want to deviate from the proper way of talking Mhmm.

所以就会出现大量快速的变异。

And so you get a lot of deviation, like rapid deviation.

当不同群体碰撞时，就像你说的，人类会自然适应，这种变化在幽默中特别明显。

Then when communities collide, you get, like just like you said, humans adapt to it, and you could see it through the lines of humor.

这其实很难研究，但你可以想象，一百年后，如果真诞生了某种新语言，我们可能会有非常精细的数据。

I mean, it's very difficult to study, but you can imagine, like, a hundred years from now, well, if there's a new language born, for example, we'll get really high resolution data.

英语其实一直在变。

I mean, English is changing.

英语时时刻刻都在变化。

English changes all the time.

所有语言都一直在变。

All languages change all the time.

有个很出名的说法，关于女王英语。

So, you know, there's a famous result about the Queen's English.

如果你去听女王的发音，传统上认为，标准的说话方式就是由女王或者国王——也就是当权者——的口音定义的。

So the if you look at the queen's vowels, the queen's English is supposed to be, you know, originally, the proper way for the talk was sort of defined by whoever the queen talked or the king, whoever was in charge.

如果你看看她从1952或1953年刚登基时的发音，一直到五十年后——当然，这位是最近去世的伊丽莎白女王——她的元音已经发生了明显变化。

And and and so if you look at the how her vowels changed from when she first became queen, 1952 or '53 when she was the first I mean, that's Queen Elizabeth who's got who who died recently, of course, until, you know, fifty years later, her vowels changed.

她的元音发生了很大的偏移。

Her vowels shifted a lot.

也就是说，就连英国英语的发音本身，她的说话方式也在慢慢改变。

And so that you know, even in the sounds of British English, in her her the way she was talking was changing.

元音的发音只是稍微在变。

The vowels were changing slightly.

光是发音这一块，就已经在变化了。

So that's just in the sounds, there's change.

我不太清楚具体原因，但我个人特别感兴趣。

I don't know what's you know, we're we're I'm interested.

我们都想知道，到底是什么在推动这些变化。

We're all interested in what's driving any of these changes.

英语的语序在过去一千年里发生了巨大变化。

The the word order of English changed a lot over a thousand years.

对吧？

Right?

所以以前的英语看起来像德语。

So it used to look like German.

你知道，它以前是动词放在句尾、有格标记的语言，后来变成了动词居中的结构。

You know, it looks it used to be a verb final language with case marking, and it shifted to a verb medial language.

因为和法语接触很多，它就变成了动词居中、没有格标记的语言。

A lot of contact, so a lot of contact with French, and it became a verb medial language with no case marking.

于是就成了现在这种动词靠前的样子。

And so it became this, you know, verb verb initially thing.

所以它一直在变化。

So and so that's It's evolving.

它已经彻底演变了。

We it it totally evolved.

所以可能就像你说的，二十年内它未必会有太大变化。

And so it may very I mean, you know, it doesn't evolve maybe very much in twenty years is maybe what you're talking about.

但五十年到一百年间，变化可大了，我觉得。

But over fifty and a hundred years, things change a lot, I I think.

我们现在会有很好的数据。

We'll now have good data

关于这一点。

on it.

是的。

Yeah.

这很好。

Which is great.

对于

For

当然。

sure.

对。

Yeah.

你能讲讲句法和语法的区别吗？

Can you talk to what is syntax and what is grammar?

你写过一本关于句法的书。

So you wrote a book on syntax.

是的，我写过。

I did.

你之前问我，你是怎么判断依存结构的？

You were asking me before about what you know, how do I figure out what a dependency structure is?

我觉得依存结构其实没那么难，大多数语言里，人们对几乎每句话的依存关系都有差不多的看法。

I'd say the dependency structures aren't that hard to generally, I think there's a lot of agreement of what they of what they are for almost any sentence in in most languages.

很多人在这点上其实意见挺一致的。

I think people will agree on a lot of that.

但还有其他因素在里头，有些人觉得语法比单纯的依存结构要复杂得多。

There are other parameters in the mix such that some people think there's a more complicated grammar than just a dependency structure.

比如诺姆·乔姆斯基，他是最有名的语言学家，他提出的句法理论就比这个更复杂一些。

And so, you know, like Noam Chomsky, he's the most famous linguist ever, and he he is famous for proposing a a slightly more complicated syntax.

所以他提出了短语结构语法。

And so he he invented phrase structure grammar.

他因很多贡献而闻名，但在五十年代末到六十年代初，他主要是在建立所谓的形式语言理论。

So he's well known for many, many things, but in the fifties and early sixties, like, but late fifties, he was basically figuring out what's called formal language theory.

对的。

Mhmm.

他构建了一个框架，用来分析不同语言的复杂程度，也就是所谓的短语结构语法的层级。

So and he figured out sort of a framework for figuring out how complicated language you know, a certain type of language might be, so called phrase structure grammars of language might be.

他的观点是，我们可以根据语法规则的复杂程度来衡量一种语言的复杂性。

And so he his his idea was that maybe we can we can think about the complexity of a language by how complicated the rules are.

明白吗？

Okay?

这些规则看起来是这样的。

And the rules will look like this.

它们有左边和右边两部分。

They will have a left hand side, and it'll have a right right hand side.

左边的东西会扩展成右边的内容。

Something will on the left hand side will expand to the thing on the right hand side.

我们先从一个 S 开始，它就像是句子的根节点。

So we'll say we'll start with an an s, which is like the root, which is an a sentence.

明白吗？

Okay?

然后我们会继续展开，比如变成一个名词短语和一个动词短语，他就是这么说的。

And then we're gonna expand to things, like a noun phrase and a verb phrase is what he would say, for instance.

明白吗？

Okay?

S 会变成 NP 和 VP，这是一种短语结构规则，接着我们再定义 NP 是什么。

An s goes to an NP and a VP as a kind of a phrase structure rule, and then and we figure out what an NP is.

NP 比如说就是一个限定词加一个名词，而动词短语则是别的结构。

An NP is a an a determiner and a noun, for instance, and a verb verb phrase is something else.

动词短语里包含一个动词和另一个名词短语，也就是另一个 NP。

There's a verb and another noun phrase and another NP, for instance.

这些就是一种非常简单的短语结构规则。

Those are the rules of a very simple phrase structure.

对的。

Mhmm.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以他提出了短语结构语法，试图解释人类语言的结构，后来他发现，根据这些语法规则的形式化方式，得到的语言可能更复杂，也可能更简单。

And and so he he proposed phrase structure grammar as a way to sort of cover human languages, and then he actually figured out that, well, depending on the formalization of those grammars, you might get more complicated or less complicated languages.

于是他指出，这些被称为上下文无关语言，他认为人类语言大多属于他所说的上下文无关语言。

And so you could he could he said, well, you these are these are things called, you know, context free languages, that rule that he thought, you know, human languages tend to be what he calls context free languages.

但还存在更简单的语言，也就是所谓的正则语言，它们的短语结构规则受到更多限制。

And but there are simpler languages, which are so called regular languages, and they have a more a more constrained form to the rules of the of the phrase structure of of these particular rules.

他基本上发现并创造了一套描述语言的方法，这些方法就是短语结构语法，适用于人类语言。

So he he basically discovered and kind of invented ways to describe the language, and though and those are phrase those are phrase structure, a a human language.

他最初在五十年代的研究中，主要关注的是英语。

And he was mostly interested in English initially in his his work in the fifties.

那关于这些内容，我有个简单的问题。

So quick questions around all this.

形式语言理论就是一个专门研究语言形式结构的领域。

So formal language theory is the big field of just studying language formally.

没错。

Yes.

而且这里说的语言不一定是人类语言。

And it doesn't have to be human language there.

比如计算机语言，任何能生成一组表达式的系统都可以，像是编程语言里的语句就是例子。

We can have computer languages, any kind of system which is generating a some set of expressions in a language, and those could be like the the, you know, the statements in a in a computer language, for example.

所以形式语言既可以指计算机语言，也可以指人类语言。

So formal it could be that, or it could be human language.

也就是说，编程语言也可以作为研究对象？

So technically, you can study programming languages?

确实有人这么研究过。

And have been.

用这种形式化方法研究得非常多。

I mean, heavily studied using this formalism.

在形式语言领域里，编程语言本身就是一个很大的研究方向。

There there's a big field of programming languages within the formal language.

明白了。

Okay.

短语结构语法就是说，可以把语言拆解成主谓宾这样的结构。

And then phrase structure grammar is this idea that you can break down language into this SNPVP Yeah.

就是这种类型。

Type of thing.

这是一种描述语言的具体形式体系。

It's it's a particular formalism for describing language.

清楚了吗？

Okay?

乔姆斯基是第一个提出这个的人。

So and Chomsky was the first one.

他是在五十年代最先搞清楚这些的人，其实这和那个是一回事。

He's the one who figured that stuff out back in the fifties, and and and but he and and that's equivalent, actually.

上下文无关文法实际上和依存语法差不多，都能生成同样的句子。

The the context free grammar is actually is kind of equivalent in the sense that it generates the same sentences as a dependency grammar would.

依存语法在某些方面更简单一些。

You know, as the the dependency grammar is a little simpler in some way.

你只需要一个根节点，然后直接连接，没有那些明确的规则，大概算是隐含的吧。

You just have a root, and it goes like, we don't have any of these the the rules are implicit, I guess, in in it.

我们只保留词语之间的关联。

We just have connections between words.

上下文无关文法其实是看待依存语法的另一种方式。

The free structure grammar is a kind of a different way to think about the the dependency grammar.

它稍微复杂一点，但在某些方面本质上是一样的。

So It's slightly more complicated, but it's kind of the same in some ways.

所以澄清一下，依存语法是一种看待语言的框架，你认为这就是

So to clarify, dependency grammar is the framework under which you see language, and you make the case that this is

我觉得用这种方式来描述语言挺合适的。

a good way to describe I think it's the language.

没错。

That's correct.

诺姆·乔姆斯基正在看着这一幕。

And Noam Noam Chomsky is watching this.

他现在特别生气，不过我只是开个玩笑。

He's very upset right now, so let's just kidding.

那短语结构语法和依存语法之间的分歧到底在哪里呢？

But what's the difference between where's the the place of disagreement between phrase structure grammar and dependency grammar?

它们其实非常接近。

They're they're very close.

短语结构语法和依存语法并没有多大差别。

So phrase structure grammar and dependency grammar aren't that aren't that far apart.

我更喜欢依存语法，因为它更清晰明了。

I I I like dependency grammar because it's more perspicuous.

它更能清楚地展现词语之间的关联。

It's more transparent about representing the connections between the words.

在短语结构语法里，这一点就没那么明显了。

It's just a little harder to see in phrase structure grammar.

你知道，乔姆斯基后来偏离了这个思路，他还提出了所谓‘移位’的概念。

You know, the the place where Chomsky sort of devolved or went off from from from this is he also thought there was something called movement.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，这就是我们意见不一致的地方。

And so so and that's where we disagree.

明白吗？

Okay?

我觉得，分歧就在这里。

That's the place where I would say we disagree.

而且，呃，也许我们以后再聊这个，不过你想现在听我解释吗？

And and and, I mean, well, maybe we'll get into that later, but the idea is if you wanna do you want me to explain that now?

我特别想请你解释一下什么是句法移动。

Do I would love can you explain movement?

就是那个移动。

Movement.

好的。

Okay.

你刚才说的这些内容太有意思了。

You're saying so many interesting things.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这个运动，乔姆斯基基本上是这么看英语的，他说，好吧。

So here's the movement is Chomsky basically sees English, and he says, okay.

我说，你记得我们之前那个句子吗？比如‘两只狗走进了房间’。

I said, you know, this is we had that sentence earlier, like, was like two dogs entered the room.

我们稍微改一下，说‘两只狗将会走进房间’。

Let's change it a little bit, say, two dogs will enter the room.

他注意到，咦。

And he notices that, hey.

在英语里，如果我想把这句话变成一个是非疑问句，我不说‘两只狗将会走进房间’，而是说‘两只狗将会走进房间吗？’

English, if I wanna make a question, a yes, no question from that same sentence, I I say, instead of two dogs will enter the room, I say, will two dogs enter the room?

好吧。

Okay.

表达同一个意思，其实有另一种说法，就是助动词‘will’从句中挪到了句首。

There's a different way to to say the same idea, and it's like, well, the auxiliary verb, that will thing, it's at the front as opposed to in the middle.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以你看，如果你仔细观察英语，就会发现这对所有情态动词和其他助动词都成立。

And so and he looked you know, if you look at English, you see that that's true for all those modal verbs and for other kinds of auxiliary verbs in English.

你总是这么做的。

You always do that.

你总是把助动词放在句首。

You always put an auxiliary verb at the front.

当他看到这一点时，比如我说‘我能够赢这场赌注’，那变成疑问句就是‘我能够赢这场赌注吗？’

And and what he's when he saw that so, you know, if I say, I can win this bet, can I win this bet?

对吧？

Right?

所以我就把‘能够’移到了句首。

So I move a can to the front.

其实，这就是一种理论。

So, actually, that's a theory.

我刚刚可是给你讲了一个理论。

I I just gave you a theory there.

他把这叫做移位。

I he he talks about it as movement.

他认为陈述句是基础形式，是句子的默认结构，而助动词需要移到句首。

That word in the he thinks the declarative is the root is is the sort of default way to think about the sentence, and you move the auxiliary verb to the front.

这就是所谓的移位理论。

That's a movement theory.

明白吗？

Okay?

他说他觉得这太明显了，肯定是对的，根本不用再多解释，助动词在英语里就是这么用的。

Said and he he just thought that was just so obvious that it must be true, that that that there's nothing more to say about that, that this is how auxiliary verbs work in English.

存在一条移位规则：从陈述句变成疑问句时，就是把助动词移到句首。

There's a movement rule such that you're move like, to get from the declarative to the interrogative, you're moving the auxiliary to the front.

但到了一般现在时和一般过去时，情况就稍微复杂一点，比如我说约翰睡了，你得说‘Did John sleep?’

And it's a little more complicated as soon as you go to simple temp simple present and simple past because, you know, if I say, you know, John slept, you have to say, did John sleep?

而不是说‘Slept John。'

Not slept John.

对吧？

Right?

所以你得想办法弄出一个助动词，我猜在底层结构里，'slept' 这种情况比表面看起来更复杂，但这就是他的观点。

And so it's you you have to somehow get an auxiliary verb, and I guess, underlyingly, it's like slept is it's a little more complicated than it, but his that's his idea.

这是一种移动。

There's a movement.

明白吗？

Okay?

另一种看待这个问题的方式是，他后来其实进一步说明了。

And and and so a different way to think about that that isn't I mean, the then then he ended up showing later.

所以他提出了一个包含移动规则的语法理论。

So he proposed this theory of grammar, which has movement.

他还认为，除了助动词，英语里的被动语态、疑问句、WH疑问句等等很多地方也都存在类似的移动现象。

There's other places where he thought there's movement, not just auxiliary verbs, but things like the passive in English and things like questions, WH questions, a bunch of places where he thought there's also movement going on.

在每一个这样的例子中，他都认为词或短语在深层结构和表层结构之间发生了位置变动。

And and in each each one of those, he thinks there's words well, phrases and words are moving around from one structure to another, which he called deep structure to surface structure.

我的意思是，他的理论里其实有两种不同的结构。

I mean, there's, like, two different structures in his in his theory.

明白了。

Okay.

还有一种不同的看法，就是根本不存在什么移动。

There's a different way to think about this, which is there's no movement at all.

而是有一个词汇复制规则，像 will 或 can 这样的助动词，其实各有两种形式。

There's a lexical copying rule such that the word will or the word can, these these auxiliary verbs, they just have two forms.

一种是陈述句用的，另一种是疑问句用的。

And and and one of them is the declarative, and one of them is interrogative.

你可以直接用陈述形式，然后转成疑问形式，或者反过来也行。

And you basically have the declarative one, and, oh, I form the interrogative, or I can form one from the other.

不管从哪个方向转换都没关系。

It doesn't matter which direction you go.

我只是多加了一个词条，意思一样，但句法结构稍有不同。

And and I just have a new entry which has the same meaning, which has a slightly different argument structure.

论元结构其实就是个说法，指的是词的排列顺序。

Argument structure is just a fancy word for the ordering of the words.

比如说，我说‘两只狗可以或将会进入房间’，这里的‘will’其实有两种形式。

And so if I say, you know, it it it was the the dogs two dogs can or will enter the room, the the there's two forms of will.

一种是陈述式的will，然后呢，嗯……

One is will declarative, and and then, okay.

主语在它左边。

I've got my subject to the left.

在这一种里，主语在前，动词在后。

It comes before me, and the verb comes after me in that one.

而疑问式的will呢，是我说在最前面。

And then the will interrogative is like, oh, I go first.

疑问句里，‘will’排第一，紧跟着是主语，然后才是动词。

Interrogative, will is first, and then I have the subject immediately after, and then the verb after that.

所以你其实可以从其中一个形式，直接生成另一个形式，只是论元结构和词序稍有不同。

And so you just you can just generate from one of those words another word with a slightly different argument structure with different ordering.

这些只是词汇上的复制。

And these are just lexical copies.

它们并没有

They don't

一定从一个位置移动

they're necessarily moving from one

到另一个位置。

to There's

不需要移动。

no movement.

有一种浪漫的想法，认为你有一个主要的方式来使用一个词，然后你可以把它

There's a romantic notion that you have, like, one main way to use a word, and then you could move it

移动。对。

around Right.

对。

Right.