#489 – 保罗·罗索利：亚马逊丛林中的未接触部落

这些部落之所以能够存活下来，正是因为他们的暴力，就像斯巴达人或科曼奇人一样。

These tribes have remained alive because of their violence, almost like the Spartans or the Comanches.

他们似乎将暴力作为与外界接触时的首要反应。

They seem to have adopted violence as a first response to contact.

也许你

Maybe you

你可以纠正我一下，但我读到过，在十九世纪末、二十世纪初，橡胶大亨的私人军队曾记录过与这些部落的接触。

can correct me on this, but I read that in the late nineteenth century, early twentieth century, there was documentation of encounters with these tribes by the private armies of the rubber barons.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这些接触，从橡胶大亨军队的角度来看，都是暴力的。

And those encounters were from the rubber barons' army's perspective, violent.

是的。

Yeah.

所以也许这些未接触部落学到的教训是：任何与外部世界的互动都必须是暴力的，因为他们必须自卫。

And so maybe the lesson they learned, the uncontacted tribes, is that any interaction with the outside world is gonna have to be violent, because they have to defend themselves.

是的。

Yeah.

在16、17世纪有殖民传教士，接着在19世纪末到20世纪初有橡胶大亨，这些都是掠夺、统治与残暴的时期。

You had colonial missionaries in the sixteen, seventeen hundreds, Then you had the rubber barons, the late eighteen hundreds into the nineteen hundreds, just periods of extraction and domination and cruelty.

这些部落的祖父母一定告诉过他们：当外界来临时，先开枪。

And these tribes, their grandparents must have told them, when the outside world comes, you shoot first.

这是唯一能让你活下来的方法。

That's the only thing that's gonna keep you alive.

你认为这些暴力遭遇的记忆，是否塑造了他们对世界的认知？

Do you think the memory of that, those violent encounters, is defining to how they think about the world?

是的。

Yeah.

因为即使在我这一代，在亚马逊地区度过的二十年里，伊格纳西奥就被射中了头部。

Because even in my lifetime there, in the twenty years I've spent in the Amazon, Ignacio was shot in the head.

我的朋友维克多曾幸存于一次暴力遭遇，当时他们在海滩上杀害了一个人。

My friend Victor survived a violent encounter where they murdered somebody on a beach.

我的意思是，他们已经射杀过很多人。

I mean, they've shot numerous people.

他们甚至射杀过试图帮助他们的人，那些给他们衣服和香蕉的人。

They've even shot people who were trying to help them, people who were trying to give them clothing and bananas.

他们只是把这叫做‘刺猬化’，就是在海滩上发现一具尸体，身上插满了箭，倒下时所有箭都竖立着。

They've just where they they call it porcupining them, where they find a body on the beach with so many arrows that when they fall over, all the arrows are sticking up.

所以他们会出于好奇这么做，比如：嘿，你穿着西装。

And so they think and they'll do it out of curiosity too, where it's like, hey, you're wearing a suit.

这太奇怪了。

That's weird.

我们从没见过穿黑白西装的人。

We've never seen anybody in a black and white suit.

然后就拿走衣服。

And then get a clothing.

就像西奥多·罗斯福为了科学而射鸟一样，他们只是想看看你。

You know, the way Teddy Roosevelt would shoot a bird for science, they're like, they'll just want they just wanna look at you.

所以他们行事方式不同，他们没有我们所拥有或理解的道德体系。

And so they're they're operating on a different they don't have a moral system that we have or understand.

他们只是，他们真的非常野蛮。

They're just they're truly wild.

伊格纳西奥是怎么看待他们的？

How does Ignacio think about them?

因为他们差点杀了他。

Because they almost killed him.

是的。

Yes.

这取决于他当时的心情。

It depends on the mood you get him in.

因为如果你某天问他，我曾问他，我说，如果你能见到那些朝你头部开枪的人，你会对他们说什么？

Because if you ask him one day, I asked him, I said, if you could see the people that shot you in the head, what would you say to them?

他用那种伊格纳西奥式的眼神看着我，然后说，我什么也不会说。

And he looked at me with that Ignacio look, he and said, I wouldn't say anything.

我会尽可能多地杀了他们。

I would kill as many of them as I could.

我说，好吧。

I said, okay.

他还曾经在文化部的一个偏远哨所工作，当时他们出现了，他知道他们会杀了他。

He also had a time where he was in a really remote guard station working for the Ministry of Culture, and they showed up, and he knew that they were gonna kill him.

于是他爬上了那个小建筑的顶端。

And so he climbed up into the the peak of the of the little structure there.

就像车里的狗一样，那种温室效应，正午烈日当空，他蜷缩在床垫上，而他们则在甲板上走动，翻动锅碗瓢盆，查看我们的物品和文物。

And just like, you know, like a dog in a car, that greenhouse effect, in the top, at midday with the sun beating down, he was huddled over a mattress while they were walking on the deck, moving pots and pans, and looking at our items and artifacts.

他知道如果被发现，他们就会杀了他。

And he knew that if he was found, they'd kill him.

但如果他一直待在上面，就会被活活晒死。

But if he stayed up there, he was literally frying to death.

他说他把床垫都浸湿了。

He said he was soaking the mattress.

他感觉自己在两个小时内正在死去。

He was he could feel himself dying for two hours.

他必须待在那里，不断做出抉择：如果我出去，我会死。

He had to stay there, and he is constantly making this decision of, if I come out, I die.

如果我待在这里，我大概也会死。

If I stay here, I probably die.

他想，大概会死总比肯定死要好。

He's like, probably die is better than definitely die.

所以他非常恐惧。

So he was terrified.

当他们大喊着‘马什，快跑’，所有人都在奔跑，妇女们抱着孩子，伊格纳西奥找到我时，你从他眼中看得出来。

And so as they're screaming, Mash, go, and everybody's running and women are lifting children, Ignacio comes and finds me, and you can see in his eyes.

你能看到一个人出现创伤后应激反应时，他呼吸急促的样子。

You can see when somebody has that PTSD response where he's breathing heavy.

他躲在树后移动。

He's he's he's moving behind trees.

他没有，他让我靠近他，然后指着那里说：看。

He's not he's keeping me close to him, and he's going, look there.

他有一艘船。

He has a boat.

他有一艘船。

He has a boat.

我们望着海滩，只见一群赤身裸体的男子正沿着海滩走下来，他们手持七英尺长的弓，弯着腰，指着我们。

And we're looking up the beach, and there's just this clan of naked men walking down the beach with these seven foot bows, and they're hunched over, and they're pointing at us.

他们说：看那个。

They're going, look at that one.

他们说：看，那里有把枪。

They're going, look, there's a gun there.

你能看到他们彼此交流，蝴蝶在海滩上盘旋，而在这样的时刻，你会想：我是不是正踏入一个无法回头的时刻？这是一扇单向门吗？

And that you can see them communicating to each other, and the butterflies are swirling off the beach, and you know, in these moments, go, am I am I entering a moment that I can't is this is this a one way door?

这难道不是一种无法逆转的局面吗？

Is this is this not something that is this an irreversible situation?

因为这是一个正在展开的局面，他们正朝我们走来。

Because it's an unfolding situation where they're coming at towards us.

他们会攻击吗？

Are they going to attack?

他们想要什么？

What do they want?

我的天，我现在一说起这个就浑身发冷，因为我记得当时站在那里，心想：这不可能是真实的生活。

Is there gonna be I mean, I'm I'm I'm soaked in chills right now just talking about it, because I remember standing there and going, there's no way this is real life.

我记得清清楚楚，他们沿着海滩走来，手里拿着弓箭的样子。

I psych it's burned into my memory, them walking down the beach and seeing them with the bows.

当然，你知道，斯特凡在上面不停地拍照，莫森在下面拍视频，而我们所在的那个群体里，人们听到的是 Shotgun 弹壳上膛的声音，他们也在装弹。

And of course, you know, Stefan is up there just firing off pictures, and and and Mohsen is down getting video, and the the community that we're with, people had you know, you hear shotgun shells loading home and them and them loading it.

但他们也在准备着，其中有一个叫罗梅尔的人类学家，是唯一一个曾与他们和平沟通的人。

But they're also they're getting ready, and there's this one guy, this anthropologist named Rommel, who has been the only person who has communicated with them peacefully.

他在2013年曾站在海滩上，和他们对话。

He did it in 2013 where he stood on the beach and he spoke to them.

他懂足够的当地方言，与他们的语言有重叠，因此能与他们交流。

He knows enough of the local dialect that overlaps with theirs that he can speak to them.

当他们沿着海滩走下来时，蝴蝶纷纷飞起，我们都屏息等待。

So as they're coming down the beach, the butterflies are flying up, and we're all waiting.

再次听到猎枪声，你知道，距离有多少米？

And again, shotgun, you're talking, you know, how many meters?

三十、四十米？

Thirty, forty meters?

我不确定。

I don't know.

很精准。

Accurate.

对于一支七英尺长、重量极轻的箭来说，轻松就能射到三百米远。

For an arrow, you lose a seven foot arrow that weighs nothing, you're talking about 300 meters easy.

他们可以从河对岸向你射箭。

They can shoot you from across the river.

所以伊格纳西奥拉着我，让我趴下。

So Ignacio was, like, pulling me, and he was, down.

他让我下去。

He's, like, you go down.

他让我躲在那棵树后面。

He's, like, you stay behind this tree.

他让我在那里盯着他们。

And he's, like, you watch them from there.

他提醒我要小心。

He's, watch out.

那个人有箭。

That guy has an arrow.

他说他一直在观察所有人，因为你能看出来，事情就是这样发生的。

He's, like, he was watching everyone, because you could see he's like, this is how it happens.

你有没有想过，这可能是你在世上的最后一天？

Did you think you might this might be the last day you have on this earth?

你害怕吗？

Are you afraid?

是的，我害怕。

I was yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，我害怕。

Of course, I was afraid.

我当时和我最好的两个朋友，还有我平时密切合作的一群人在一起，身处荒无人烟之地。

It's you're with you're with I'm with my two best friends and a bunch of people that I work very closely with, and you're in the middle of nowhere.

而且没有救援会来，你身边有大约26个人，而你能看到50个部落成员，你知道他们正在包围我们。

And there's no help coming, and you're with, like, you know, 26 people, and there's 50 of the tribe that you can see, and you know that they're surrounding us.

河对岸全是男人，而我们则把枪对准丛林方向，因为我们知道我们已经被包围了。

There's all men on the other side of the river, and then we had we had guns looking back towards the jungle, because we knew we were being surrounded.

所以，这总是某人的叔叔、兄弟或表亲讲过的老故事，而现在，它真的发生了。

And so, again, this is always this is always the story of of of someone's uncle, brother, cousin tells a story that happened, and now it's happening.

这并不是在暗处发生，也不是在半夜发生，而是在光天化日之下发生的。

And it's not happening in the shadows, it's not happening in the middle of the night, it's happening in broad daylight.

他们正走向海滩。

They're they're walking out onto the beach.

就像他们第一次在《侏罗纪公园》里看到恐龙时那样，你只能说：‘呃——’。

You know, it's like it's like the first time they saw the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, you're going, uh-uh.

这不可能。

There's no way.

你正走在刀锋边缘，有趣的是你说斯蒂法诺在拍照，确实如此。

And you're you are kinda walking on the knife's edge of and it's funny you say it's Stefano's taking pictures, because Yeah.

对于这种情况，有两种看法。

There's two ways to think of this situation.

这既令人着迷，又极其危险。

This is fascinating, or this is extremely dangerous.

两者都是。

And it's both.

这就像走钢丝。

It is a knife's edge.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你可以从这两种方式中选择一种来应对。

So you could approach it one of the two ways.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，我要是死了，那就死了。

Like, if I die, I die.

我会去

I'm gonna take

拍些好照片。

some good pictures.

但同时，我们当时在那里，这也是我们的任务，你知道的。

But also, we're there that was also our mission, you know.

作为丛林守护者的导演，我们正与这个社区合作，确保他们的生活方式能够延续，而他们说：‘这太好了。’

As as the directors of Jungle Keepers, we're working with this community to ensure that their lifestyle can continue, and they're saying, hey, that's great.

但作为原住民社区，我们面对的是那些出来抢劫、偷窃我们的女人、杀害我们猎人的外来者，而现在他们又出现了。

But as an indigenous community, we're dealing with these people that come out and raid our stuff, try and steal our women, that kill our hunters, and now they're coming out.

我们希望你们能亲眼看到这一切。

We want you to see it.

因此，记录这一切是我们职责的一部分。

And so documenting it is part of our job.

我们必须展示那天发生了什么。

We have to show what happened that day.

当时那些人正在拍摄，而事实上，莫森的妻子和我经常开玩笑说，如果部落的人真的冲出来，你就挡在他前面，替他挡下箭矢。

And so those guys were shooting, and then, yes, very seriously, it's actually so Mohsen's wife and I, we we always joked about, like, if the tribe ever comes out, like, you stand in front of him, like, you take the arrow.

他有孩子。

He has kids.

而那天，我们确实有策略地安排了位置，心里想着：‘你得趴下。’

And it was you know, that day, it was like we were strategically positioning ourselves being like, you know, you down.

你不能被杀死。

You cannot get killed.

在那些时刻，你开始想：好吧。

And it was you start in those moments to go, okay.

我在哪里才能避开箭矢？

Where can where will I be safe from arrows?

如果他们过来了，我该往哪里逃到河边？

Where can I run to the river if they if they come over?

你开始规划：好吧。

And you start planning, okay.

如果我跳进河里，我想：好吧。

If I jump into the river, was going, okay.

我带着我的包。

I got my bag.

我有一罐金枪鱼。

I have a can of tuna.

我有一把手电筒。

I have a flashlight.

我当时想，如果我跳进河里顺流而下并活下来，我仍然在上游好几天的地方。

I was like, if I jump into the river and float down and I live, I'm still days upriver.

于是你开始一一考虑这些事情，但是

And so you you start going through all these things, but

当然，莫斯科普罗人也在想完全相同的事情。

And of course, the the Moscow Puro people are thinking exactly the same thing.

大概吧。

Probably.

嗯，那个

Well well, the

有趣的是，他们主动发起了接触。

the interesting thing is that they're initiating the contact.

对吧？

Right?

他们是那些从丛林中走出来并面对我们的人。

They're they are the ones coming out of the jungle and confronting us.

从根本上说，这种接触至少是给和平一个机会。

And fundamentally, that contact is they're at least giving peace a chance.

只是他们先尝试了和平接触。

It's just that they're trying the peaceful contact first.

对吗？

Correct?

还是存在暴力因素？

Or is there a violent element?

比如，当你看到他们谨慎地出现在海滩上时，你感受到了什么？

Like, what did you sense in the caution of them emerging to the beach?

恐惧。

Fear.

恐惧。

Fear.

当他们走出来时，你能看到他们脸上的恐惧，因为他们弯着腰，弓箭已准备好，显得非常担忧。

As they came out, you could see fear on them because the way they were hunched over, the way they had their bows ready, they were worried.

于是他们来了，你知道，罗梅尔站在河边，比我们任何人都更靠近，就像赤身肉搏一样。

And so they came, and, you know, Rommel is standing there as closer than any of us at the edge of on one side of the river, and it was like, you know, shirts versus skins.

这是两个部落彼此对视，中间隔着千年的文明差距。

It was two tribes looking at each other with a thousand years of civilization between them.

拉莫斯说：放下你们的弓箭。

And Ramos going, put down your bows.

放下你们的弓箭，我们可以谈谈。

Put down your bows, and we can talk.

他不断重复着，一遍又一遍地说：兄弟。

And he's he kept saying, kept saying, brothers.

兄弟，请放下你们的

Brothers, please put down your

所以‘兄弟’这个词是他们可能能听懂的语言中的说法吗？

So means brother in a language that they might be able to understand?

Nomoli 在他们理解的语言中意为兄弟，而且他们似乎自称 Nomoles，也就是兄弟们。

Nomoli means brother in a language that they do understand, and it's and it seems like they refer to themselves as the Nomoles, the the brothers.

所以可能他们部落的自称就是 Nimales。

So potentially, that's what they call themselves as the tribe, is Nimales.

没错。

Exactly.

实际上，我们事后咨询的人类学家向我们解释，Mashko Piro——Piro 是他们所属的群体，这些不同的游牧部落，基本上意思是野生的皮罗人，而我们唯一知道的是他们自称 nomoles。

And actually, the anthropologists that we've been speaking to post this event have been explaining to us that Mashko Piro you know, Piro is the is the the the group that they're from, these these various nomadic tribes, and basically means like wild piroos, and so the one thing we know they call themselves is nomoles.

所以最终我们可能会倾向于将这个部落称为 nomole 而不是 Mashko piro。

So at the end of this, we might converge towards the name of this tribe being nomole versus Mashko piro.

Nomoles。

The nomoles.

是的。

Yeah.

看来他们当前，或者至少是他们自我认同的身份，就是兄弟们。

Seems like the most current, or at least their self appointed identity is the brothers.

诺摩尔

No mole.

总之，海滩上有这些精壮的战士，是的。

Anyway, there's these shredded warriors on the beach Yeah.

拿着七英尺长的箭。

With seven foot arrows.

我们都站在那里，所以首先想到的又是，你知道，就像古老故事中的和平烟斗。

We're all standing there, and so the the the first thing again, you just think of, like, you know, the peace pipe in the old stories.

第一件事就是，让我们向他们献上和平的礼物。

And the first thing is, let's make them an offering of peace.

于是他们找来一艘没有马达的独木舟，我们往里面堆满了大蕉，满满的都是大蕉，16英尺长的无尽绿香蕉。

And so they got a canoe with no motor, and we piled it with plantains, like, just full of plantains, 16 feet of of endless green bananas.

然后，我是说，这家伙胆子真大，那位人类学家，他下到河里，拿起独木舟，因为是旱季，所以河道只有大约三、四英尺深。

And then, I mean, the balls on this guy, the the anthropologist, he gets into the river, takes the canoe, and it's the dry season, so the river's only about three, four feet deep at its at the channel.

于是，他就这样把船推了出去。

And so, he walks this thing out.

有一个人面对所有这些战士走过来，他把船推向前去。

There's one man walking in the face of all these warriors, and he takes the boat, and he pushes it towards them.

他们冲出来，开始抢夺香蕉。

And they rush out, and they start grabbing the bananas.

他们并没有想：好吧，我们把这些香蕉卸下来，留着以后吃。

And they're not going, okay, we will unload these bananas and use them later.

他们喊着‘这是我的香蕉’，你抢你的，我抢我的，大家互相争抢，拼命地抓取香蕉。

They're my bananas, and you're grabbing your bananas, and they're fighting, and they're yelling, and they're all grabbing, and they're they're grabbing them.

然后他们把船推了回去，他和他们说了几句，但翻译并不完全准确。

And then they push the boat back, And he talks to them a little bit, and they're again, it's not a perfect translation.

于是他问：你们从哪里来？

So he's, you know, he's saying, where have you come from?

你们想要什么？

What do you want?

你们的首领是谁？

Who's your leader?

他试图弄清楚这些事情，而他们也在说话，所有人几乎同时开口，像一群鸟一样叽叽喳喳。

He's trying to establish these things, and they're saying things, and they all sort of talk at the same time like a flock of birds.

他们并不是像一个人说话那样有序地交流。

They're not they don't have it wasn't like one man speaks.

而且那里没有女人。

And there was no women.

女人根本看不到踪影。

The women were the women were nowhere to be seen.

实际上，在某个时刻，当我们正在准备——我想是第二艘独木舟的香蕉时，出现了一瞬间的极度恐慌。

And actually, at one point, as we were preparing I think it was while we were preparing the second canoe of bananas, there was a moment of absolute panic.

当身后传来一阵响动时，事情发生了，你只听到身后传来一连串猎枪上膛的声音。

And and it happened when there was a noise behind us, and you just hear a bunch of shotguns swing behind us.

于是，莫森倒下了。

And, you know, Mohsen goes down.

我现在开始朝河边外跑去，因为再次强调，我想提前看到袭击是否正在逼近。

I go running away from the river now, because again, I wanna see it coming if there's an attack coming.

我和这个家伙躲在同一棵树下掩护，他拿着猎枪，正回头盯着森林深处张望。

And I'm standing me and this guy, we're sharing a tree as cover, and he's got a shotgun, and he's looking back into the forest and peering through.

当时发生的情况是，部落的女人们悄无声息地来了，正把木薯从地里挖出来，把香蕉植株搬走，把整个农场彻底毁了。

And what was happening was, the women of the tribe had come silent foot, and they were just pulling the yucca out of the ground and taking the banana plants, and ruining the farm completely.

但当男人们在这儿谈话时，她们却在我们身后袭击了农场。

But they were raiding the farm behind us while the men were talking up here.

所以，她们是在和平地与我们接触，还是说，‘嘿，我们需要点吃的，所以你们制造个混乱，然后我们趁机……’？

So, again, were they were they peacefully contacting us, or were they like, hey, we need some food, so go make a diversion and Mhmm.

然后趁机把食物拿走——我的意思是，我们真的被包围了。

And then take the take the food up I mean, really were surrounded.

我们完全被包围了。

We were completely surrounded.

所以，她们本可以轻易地杀了你们所有人。

So they they could have murdered all of you, probably.

轻而易举。

Easily.

我们至少是五比一处于劣势。

We were we were out outnumbered five to one at the least.

是的。

Yeah.

而且可以说，他们这样做的部分原因可能是想寻求和平，但另一部分原因是他们不了解事情的深度。

And it's probably fair to say that part of the reason they did, maybe they wanted peace, but part of the reason is they didn't know how deep this goes.

他们不知道你们是否有增援。

They didn't know if you have backup.

他们不知道我们是否有增援？

They don't know if we have backup?

他们也有疑问。

They also they had questions.

他们提出的一些问题非常惊人。

They were asking the some of their questions were incredible.

我们怎么区分谁是好人谁是坏人？

How do we tell the difference between how do we know who the good guys and the bad guys are?

因为对他们来说，你们这些外人都是一样的。

Because to them, all you outsiders are the same.

那么，是谁在砍树呢？

So why who are the ones cutting down the trees?

那些是

And those are

他们知道的坏人。

the ones they know are the bad guys.

嗯，那些大树对他们来说似乎具有非凡的意义。

Well, the big trees seem to have incredible significance to them.

它们对我们来说意义不同，但对他们而言，砍伐大树是一种近乎宗教层面的冒犯，就像在杀害他们的神明一样。

They're they're significant to us in a different way, but to them, it's it's it's a it's offensive on a on a almost religious level to cut a big tree as if you're as if you're killing their gods.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以对他们来说，树木具有灵性。

So there's a spirituality to the trees to them.

似乎是这样的。

It seems like that.

因此，无论谁在砍伐它们，都是在精神和存在层面上进行破坏的源头。

And so whoever's cutting them down is a source of destruction on a spiritual, existential level.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你为什么要摧毁我们的家园呢？

Well, how why would you destroy our home?

而且我认为他们是对的。

And I think they're right.

是的。

Yeah.

在

In a

从深层意义上说，未接触部落代表了深邃的丛林。

in a deep sense, the Oncontexted tribes represent the deep jungle.

所以如果他们受到威胁，就意味着丛林，那深邃的丛林

And so if they're threatened, that means the jungle, the deep jungle

也受到威胁。

is threatened.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他们是丛林的人类之声，他们在提问，也在提出要求，你知道，他们在向我们拍手，挥手，说‘多送点香蕉来，多送点’。

I mean, they are the human voice of the jungle, and they're they're asking questions that they're also demanding, you know, they're clapping at us, and they're waving, and they're saying, send more send send more bananas.

于是他们又装满了一艘船，推出了另一艘船。

And so they loaded up another boat, and they pushed another boat out.

这次，他们给了他们一些绳子。

And this time, they gave them some rope.

他们所有人腰上都系着绳子，阴茎也被绑了起来。

They all had rope tied around their waists, penises tied up.

但他们很喜欢绳子，有些人戴着他们自己制作的绳子，是棕色或偏红的，还有些人戴的绳子明显是从伐木营地或社区抢来的，因为是现代尼龙伞绳，他们像一条厚腰带一样缠在腰间。

But they love rope, and some of them were wearing rope that they had made, which is brown or or reddish, and then some of them were wearing rope that they had clearly pillaged from logging camps or the communities, because it was modern nylon paracord, and they had this wound around their waists like a thick belt.

他们拿走了第二艘船，这样他们就有了一些绳子，船上还有一些大蕉。

And they took the second boat, and that way they had some some rope, and they had some plantains on there.

所以这些人中可能有些

So some of these guys might have

就是几个月前杀害伐木工人的那些人。有可能。

been the ones that murdered the loggers Could be.

就是几个月前的事。

From a couple months before that.

绝对是。

Absolutely.

有可能。

Could be.

但拉梅尔跟他们说话时，他转向我们说，你知道，这群人，他说其他族群都叫我祖父。

But what Ramel said as he was talking to them, he turned to us and he said, you know, this group he said, the other groups call me the grandfather.

他说，这群人，他说我一个都不认识。

He said, this group, he said, I don't know any of these.

他说，这是第一次接触。

He said, this is first contact.

他说，这是这个群体第一次与我们交谈。

He said, this is the first time this group is talking to us.

你看到的人年龄大约从12岁到看起来40岁，像是饱经风霜的40岁

And you saw people from maybe 12 years old to what looks like 40, like a like a banged up 40

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

而且没有真正的老人，也没有女性。

And and no really old people and no women.

所以这是一个特定的氏族，一个从未接触过的特定部落。

So there's a particular clan It's a particular tribe that never contacted.

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

是的。

Yeah.

根据你的记忆，他们在试图沟通时有什么有趣的特点吗？

Is there, just from your memory, interesting aspects about the way they were trying to communicate?

就像你所说的，拍手。

Like you said, clapping.

我认为从人类学和人类的角度来看，这非常迷人。

I I think it's a, from an anthropology perspective, from a human perspective, fascinating.

你该如何与这样一个未接触过的部落交流呢？

How do you talk to people from an uncontacted tribe like this?

所以是拍手、大喊。

So clapping, yelling.

有趣的是，我们并不确定是否存在一个由领导者代表的等级制度。

It's interesting to know that there's not a hierarchy where there's a leader that represents, or is that we know for sure.

在来找你谈这件事之前，我们已经请人类学家、伦理学家等人审阅过，我们说：‘我们真的能谈论这个吗？’

Before even coming to talk to you about this, we passed this through anthropologists and ethicists and people, and we, you know, we said, look, is it even can we talk about this?

因为如果你谈论这些未接触过的部落，人们会产生误解。

Because if you talk about this and you tell people there's these uncontacted tribes, people have misconceptions.

他们是地球上最后的自由人群。

They go, they're the last free people on Earth.

他们过着真正的生活。

They're living the real life.

我们需要去加入他们。

We need to go join them.

我们想见到他们。

We wanna see them.

我们想拍摄照片。

We wanna photograph.

发生了这么多坏事，而所有人都希望我们不要打扰他们。

There's all this bad stuff that happens, and all these people want us to be left alone.

所以我们最不想做的，就是毁掉我们试图保护的东西，然后告诉全世界；但与此同时，他们也在发声。

So the last thing we wanna do is is kill the thing we're trying to protect and tell the world, but at the same time, they're speaking out.

他们说：停止砍伐我们的树木。

They're saying, stop cutting our trees.

别管我们。

Leave us alone.

因此，如果我们未能成功完成大丛林守护者保护这条河流的使命，他们就会消失。

And so if we're not successful in in the greater jungle keeper's mission of protecting this river, they cease to exist.

因此，为这些人群发声，要求我们进行这场对话，需要这段影像，并向世界展示，然后让他们安静地生活。

And so advocating for these people requires us to have this conversation, and requires us to have this footage, and to show the world, and then leave them alone.

为了让这一切有意义，我必须给你看这段影像，而这之前从未公之于众。

In order for any of this to make sense, I have to show you this footage, and this has not been shown ever before.

这是世界首次。

This is a world first.

我的意思是，到目前为止，还有另一件事。

I mean, up until now, that's the other thing.

你知道，我们今天坐在这里，你所见过的唯一画面，都是来自百米之外的手机拍摄的、模糊不清的未接触部落影像，而我们却用800毫米镜头搭配2倍增距镜和R5相机，就坐在这里。

You know, we're sitting there this day, and and, you know, the only thing you've ever seen are these blurry images of from someone's cell phone from a 100 meters away of the uncontacted tribes, and we're sitting there with, you know, 800 millimeters with a two x teleconverter and, you know, r fives.

因此，当我们透过镜头观察农田，等待部落出现时。

And so this is, as we're looking through the farms, anticipating the tribe coming.

我稍微调大一点音量，这样你们能听清楚。

I'll put a little bit of volume so you can hear it.

然后你们可以看到，就是这一刻。

And then you can see, this is the moment.

当他们出现时，我们正在奔跑。

This is us running when they're like, they're out.

他们正沿着海滩走下来。

They're coming down the beach.

是的。

Yeah.

我们只是说：哇，太不可思议了。

We're just Oh, wow.

哦，

Oh,

哇。

wow.

你看到有多少只蝴蝶了吗？

You see how many thousands of butterflies.

但看看它们是如何移动的。

But look at the way they move.

看看它们是如何指向的。

Look at the way they point.

看那个拿着弓的人。

Look at him with his bow.

哇。

Wow.

它们正在试图弄清楚，是的。

They're trying to figure out Yeah.

它们在看什么。

What they're looking at.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

他们不知道相机在那里。

And they didn't know what the cameras are there.

所以这个是正在往后看的人。

So this was the guy who's looking out the back.

所以他正要去后面某个地方。

So he's he's going to something back here.

他能听到农场里的女人。

He could hear the women in the farm.

我四处张望，因为我在想，箭是从哪个方向来的？

And I'm looking in every direction because I'm going, which way is the arrow coming from?

但你看，他拿着猎枪。

But see, he has his shotgun.

这就像一把农场用的猎枪。

This is just like a farm shotgun.

即使他开了枪，你也得用棍子把弹壳敲出来。

Even if he shot it, you have to use a stick to bang out the shell.

但你看，当他们靠近时，就开始躺在地上了。

But see, as they come closer, they start laying down there.

看，他把弓和箭放下了。

See, he's laying down his bow and arrow.

他们明白了。

They understand.

不，不再了。

No no more.

所以

So

这些是战士，他们最初移动的方式看起来真的像是准备要暴力相向。

these are these are warriors, and the way they were at first moving, it really looked like they're ready for violence.

但现在，他们都放松地站着，是的。

And now, they're all standing in a relaxed Yeah.

而且在微笑？

And smiling?

他们在笑吗？

Are they smiling?

笑容会在某个时刻出现。

Smiles come at some point.

是啊，老兄。

Yeah, bro.

我会说这些人中有一个看起来像是领导者。

I would say that one of these guys seemed like in a leadership position.

他说了最多的话。

He did most of the talking.

这些不同的手势是怎么回事？

What What's with the different hand gestures?

这个，把手举到脸旁边。

This The holding your hand up to the face.

所有这些都有某种含义。

All of this means something.

这一切都有某种含义。

All of this means something.

有些人脸上涂着红色，有些人涂着黄色。

Some had red smeared on their faces, some had yellow.

你有没有

Did you have a

感觉到任何等级制度？

sense of hierarchy at all?

比如，老大？

Like, the boss?

还是那两个主导的人，就像这家伙和另一个几乎长得像他的人，像是他的兄弟。

Again, there was just these two dominant guys and like this guy and one other guy who looked almost like him, like his brother.

是的。

Yeah.

我在做手势。

I'm gesturing.

哇。

Wow.

这太不可思议了，保罗。

This is incredible, Paul.

嗯。

Yeah.

你看到那根绳子了吗？

You see the rope?

看到了。

Yeah.

那根绳子的一部分是。

Some of that rope is.

嗯。

Yeah.

我大概能分辨出谁是老板。

I can kinda tell who the who the bosses are.

对吧？

Right?

好吧。

Alright.

所以有几个，但你看，即使那样，当他指着它们时，你在指什么？你在指什么？你在指什么？

So a few of the But see, even that, as he's pointing with them, what are you what are you what are you pointing at?

你们真是疯了。

You guys are nuts.

你们真是疯了。

You guys are nuts.

你看他们冲进来时，有一种绝望的感觉。

You see as though they're rushing in, there's this desperation.

他们饿了。

They're hungry.

他们还 是

They also Is

那是在水里吗？

that in the water?

那是拉莫在水里吗？

Is that Ramo in the water?

那样的话？

The In that case?

在这个特定的视频里，是一个叫丽娜的人。

In this particular video, it's a guy named Lina.

但是，你看这些人，他们在争抢。

But, like, see these guys, they're they're fighting over.

并不是说我们之后会一起分享。

It's not that we're all gonna share it later.

而是我拿我的，你拿你的。

It's I get mine, you get yours.

所以这意味着什么？

And so what does that what does that mean?

是的。

Yeah.

但在这里，他们处于和平模式。

But here, they're in peaceful mode.

在我们给了他们几船香蕉之后，情况确实平静下来了。

Now, after we'd given them after we'd given them several boatloads of bananas, things did calm down.

拉莫斯对他们说，你看，我们已经给了我们能给的一切。

Ramos said to them, you know, look, we've given you what we can give you.

我们给了你们甘蔗。

We gave you sugarcane.

我们给了你们几船大蕉。

We gave you boatloads of plantains.

于是后来有一段时间，情况稍微放松了一些。

And so then there came a time where things were a little more relaxed.

他们四处走动。

They were walking around.

我们曾有过一个美好的时刻，那时我们给了他们芭蕉和香蕉，然后他说，听着。

We were at one point, we we we had a we had a great moment where we we'd given them the the the plantains, we'd given them the bananas, and and he'd said, look.

就这样了。

This is that's it.

他说，我们已经给了你们所要求的一切。

He said, we we've given you what what you asked for.

你们要的是香蕉。

You asked for bananas.

我们这里不砍树。

We don't we don't cut the trees here.

我们这里所有人都不是伐木工。

All of us here are not tree cutters.

我们是原住民，而他无法解释我们到底是什么人，但他们说我们不砍树。

We're indigenous people, and and he he couldn't explain who the hell we were, but they were like, we don't cut the trees.

我们不是伐木者。

We're not the loggers.

然后他们就说，好吧。

And they're like, okay.

所以后来，在某个时刻，你知道，伊格纳西奥走出去，有点像，开始，你知道，他会这样，他们也会这样，然后，你知道，他会稍微跳跳舞，他们也稍微跳跳舞。

So then, at some point, you know, Ignacio went out and, like, sort of, like, started you know, he'd go like this, and they'd go like this, and, you know, he'd, like, dance a little bit, they danced a little bit.

然后出现了这样一个非常人性化的玩笑时刻。

And then there was this very human moment of just sort of joking.

所以连伊格纳西奥也放松下来了。

So even Ignacio warmed up.

连伊格纳西奥也放松下来了。

Even Ignacio warmed up.

一旦他意识到那天似乎没有人会死，情况确实平静下来了。

Once he realized it didn't seem like anyone was gonna die that day, things did calm down.

这是一种虚假的安全感。

It was a false sense of security.

来，我展示给你看。

Here, I'll show you.

不过，这里还有几件相关的事情。

There's a couple more things that are relevant here though.

是的，这只是他们在和船互动。

Yeah, this is just them interacting with the boat.

这个

This

这真是太不可思议了，老兄。

is Truly incredible, man.

但他们没有船，没有石器，想象一下，如果你给他们看冰块。

But then they don't have boats, they don't have stone tools, they don't Imagine if you showed them ice.

你知道，他们不会（理解）。

You know, they wouldn't

这是历史性的。

This is historic.

我的意思是，你听说过珀西·福西特遭遇部落的情况。

I mean, it's the I mean, you hear Percy Fawcett encountering the tribes.

我们听说过一些关于这些部落的传闻。

We've heard of anecdotal accounts of the tribes.

这是第一次有部落被拍摄下来，我们能听到他们的声音，看到有记录的互动发生。

This is the first time that the tribes have been filmed, that we can hear their voices, that there's a documented interaction happening.

我的意思是，现在你看他有多放松。

I mean, this now, look how comfortable he's getting.

他离得这么近。

He's so close.

他们向他要了衬衫。

They asked him for his shirt.

他把衬衫给了他们。

He gave his shirt.

好吧。

Okay.

他们向他要了裤子。

They asked him for his pants.

他脱下了裤子。

He gave his pants.

他只穿着内衣。

He was in his underwear.

没错。

Yep.

你看到了吗？

You see this?

这是搭在他肩上的那件衬衫。

This the shirt that's over his shoulder.

伊格纳西奥脱下他的丛林守护者衬衫，扔给了人类学家，然后人类学家拿着它走过去，扔给了他们。

Ignacio took off his jungle keeper shirt and threw it to the anthropologist, and then the anthropologist walked it off and threw it to them.

这位未接触过的赤裸战士肩上搭着一件带有标志的丛林守护者衬衫。

So over the shoulder of that uncontacted naked warrior is a Jungle Keeper shirt with the logo showing.

这几乎是他们的第二件衬衫了。

They're like their second shirt.

他直接提升了那个部落成员的地位。

He just upgraded that guy's status in the tribe.

穿着这件衬衫，他就要成为新首领了。

He's gonna be the new boss with that shirt.

他穿着一件超酷的Polo衫。

He's got a great he's got a dope ass polo.

没错。

Yeah.

他甚至都没必要专门订购。

He didn't even have to order it.

但话说回来，这跟事情平息后的场景可不一样。

But yeah, this isn't like the aftermath when things were calm.

让我印象特别深的是，拉莫斯对我说，他们问起你了。

And then my sort of moment with this that really stuck with me was when Ramos said to me, he said, you know, they he said, they're asking about you.

我问：‘他们问什么？’

And I said, what are they asking?

我说，你知道，问我吗？

I said, you know, me?

然后他说，是的，他们在打听你。

And he goes, yeah, they're asking about you.

而且，你知道，再说一次，我不算高，但和村里的人比起来，我稍微高一点，肩膀也宽一些。

And, you know, again, I'm not tall, but I'm I compared to the people in the village, I was a little bit taller and big shoulders.

他说他们说了，你看起来像个战士。

And he said they said, you look like a warrior.

他说，你能上前来吗？

He said, could you come forward?

他说，向他们表明你没有恶意。

He said, show them that you don't mean any harm.

说，给他们看看你的手掌。

Said, show them your palms.

于是他把我拉到海滩上，这就在他们离开之前。

And so he pulled me up onto the beach, and this was right before they left.

但你看，举起我的手。

But see, hold up my hands.

听。

Listen.

他们回应歌唱。

And they sang back.

他们在唱歌。

They're singing.

他们举起了手。

They raise their hands.

我也举起了手。

I raise my hands.

哇。

Wow.

然后，我们看着他们带着我们给他们的所有东西，走向丛林深处，渐渐离去。

And then and then we were left with watching them walk off the beach into the jungle with everything that we'd given them, and they were gone.

第二天，我们顺流而下，社区的人对我们说：好吧。

And so we went downriver the next day, and the community said to us, okay.

现在你们明白这是真实的了。

Now you understand this is real.

这太可怕了。

This is terrifying.

你们感受到了那种恐惧。

You felt that fear.

如果你们要保护这条河，就有责任保护我们免受他们的侵害，并帮助我们弄清楚他们想要的未来是什么。

You have a duty, if you're gonna protect this river, to protect us from them, and to help us figure out what future they want.

如果他们想来找我们，想学种地，或者不管他们想做什么，都没关系，但他们说：我们需要你们的保护。

If they want to come to us, if they wanna learn farming, if they whatever it is, you know, that's that's fine, but they're like, we need protection from you guys.

在开头这段视频里，我正对着镜头边走边解说，当时他们正沿着海滩走来，你们看那个穿蓝色衬衫的人。

And then, in this video in the beginning, I'm sort of narrating to the camera and walking around, right as they're coming up the beach, but you see this guy right there in the blue shirt.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那是乔治。

That's George.

他非常友好，对此非常自信。

And he was very friendly, very confident with this.

他说，别害怕，他们不会伤害我们的。

He said, don't be scared, they're not gonna hurt us.

第二天，我们返回镇上，你知道，回镇的路途很长，然后我们就睡觉了。

And the next day, we went back to town, you know, a long journey back to town, and go to sleep.

早上醒来，我们发现第二天凌晨，我们社区的朋友们说，好吧。

We wake up in the morning, and we find out that that the following early morning, our friends in the community had said, okay.

部落已经离开了。

The tribe is gone.

我们给了他们所有想要的东西。

We gave them all the things they wanted.

我们给了他们甘蔗、香蕉。

We gave them sugarcane, bananas.

我们说，请你们回来。

We said, please come back.

我们随时欢迎你们来这里。

We are welcome here anytime.

乔治当时在开船，船上还有人。

And George was driving a boat, and there was people on the boat.

当他们沿河而上时，部落里200人冲了出来，包围了船，开始射箭，其他所有人都只能趴下，躲在长凳下面和米袋后面。

And as they were going upriver, the tribe 200 of the tribe ran out, surrounded the boat, and they started firing arrows, and everybody else could hit the deck and get under the under the the benches and hide behind bags of rice.

乔治在开车，他一边开车一边向后靠，尽可能快地行驶，一支箭射进来，正好从他的肩胛骨上方射入，从肚脐处穿出。

George was driving, he was leaning back as he's driving, and he's driving as fast as he can, and one arrow came in just above his scapula and came out by his belly button.

于是那支七英尺长的箭头贯穿了他的身体。他们把他拉出来，我后来看到了船，船上到处都是骇人听闻的大量血迹，他不得不被医疗后送，但不知怎么他活了下来。

And so he had that seven foot arrow tip through him, And so they pulled him out, and I saw the boat afterward, and there was just, you know, horrific amounts of blood all over the boat, and he had to be medevaced out, and somehow he lived.

我们帮忙为他安排了直升机，将他撤离，做了所有这些事情。

And we were able to help getting him a helicopter, getting him evac ed, all this.

但再次，你看，这些人从丛林里出来，他们只是要香蕉。

But again, you just go you know, these these these people came out of the jungle, and they asked for bananas.

我们给了他们香蕉，并且尽一切可能的方式表达了我们寻求和平的意愿。

We gave them bananas, and we, in every way possible, said we mean peace.

我们想与你们建立友谊。

We we want friendship with you.

然后第二天，他们就发动了攻击。

And and then the next day, they attacked.

你们怎么

What do you

你认为发生了什么？

think happened?

你觉得他们为什么改变了主意？

Why do you think their mind turned?

或者这可能与他们社会中暴力的角色有关。

Or maybe this has to do with the role of violence in their society.

也许暴力已经如此深入地融入了他们与世界互动的方式，以至于他们甚至不认为这是互动方式的根本转变。

Maybe they it's so integrated into how they interact with the world that they don't even see that as a fundamental shift in the interaction.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道该怎么理解这件事。

I don't know what to make of it.

我唯一能想到的是，他们把女人藏起来不让我们看到，也许对他们来说，我们不被允许见他们的女人。

And the only thing I can think is that the way they hid the women from us, you don't know for them, maybe we're not allowed to see their women.

你知道吗？

You know?

或者因为有一件事我们了解到的是，当乔治的船和南边的船沿河而上时，那是他们的生活方式。

Or or because the one thing that we got was that as George's boat and the southern boat were going upriver, the which is how they live.

这些人并没有做错什么。

These it's not like they were doing anything wrong.

这些人生活在亚马逊深处的一个社区里。

These people live in a community days into the Amazon.

他们是去钓鱼的。

They were going fishing.

所以他们转过一个弯，我想他们惊动了那个部落。

And so they came around a bend, and I think they spooked the tribe.

部落可能只是采取了防御行动，说，我们不知道这是谁。

The tribe might have just acted defensively and said, we don't know who this is.

马达声可能激怒了他们。

The motors could have set them off.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

但他们开枪打了他。

They but they they shot him.

然后另一件事是关于项链的事情。

And then the other thing is the the thing with the necklace.

我问过人类学家这个问题，他们的回答是，到了这个地步，他们说，你知道的比我们多。

I've asked anthropologists about this, and their answer was that at this point, they said, you know more than we do.

但那个。

But that.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们两个人脖子上戴着完全相同的物品，看起来像是巴西坚果，侧面还有某种外壳，看起来像是动物牙齿

Because two of them had the exact same item around their necks, and it seems to be brazil nut, and then some sort of casing around the side, and it looked like animal teeth

嗯。

Mhmm.

镶嵌在那里。

Positioned in there.

就像是，你带着什么？

It's like, what are you carrying?

你带着药吗？

Are you carrying medicine?

你带着某种图腾吗？

Are you carrying some sort of a totem?

但是你俩都戴着，而且戴在脖子上并不舒服。

Are you but both of them and it's not a comfortable thing to wear around your neck.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道的，比葡萄柚还大。

You know, grapefruit sized bigger.

你有没有觉得那是个容器，还只是一种护身符？

Do you have a sense that that's a container, or is it just like a totem?

看起来像是个容器。

It seems like a container.

他们不让它沾水。

They didn't let it get wet.

他们很小心地保管它。

They cared for it.

这张照片里的这个人，他戴着这个。

The guy in this picture so he's got this.

他身上绑着一段树纤维，然后他还弄到了来自河对岸农场的巴西坚果塑料袋。

This is a piece of tree fiber that he has it on, and and then he's gotten his hands on Brazil nut sacks, plastic sacks from one of the farms across the river.

所以他们只是直接拿走。

And so they just they just take.

他们拿走了。

They take.

其中一个人拿了把砍刀，正在走路。

And one of them got a machete, and he was walking.

当他们离开时，再次处于那段关系缓和的时期，他正要离开，手里拿着砍刀，还挥舞着砍刀，像在打蝴蝶一样。

As they were leaving, again, during that period where it got friendly, he was leaving, and he had the machete, and he was playing with the machete, and, like, swinging it at butterflies.

我的一个朋友，这个叫巴乔的人，他说：‘把砍刀给我。’

And one of my friends, this guy Bacho, he goes, oh, he goes, deja me machete.

他意思是，把砍刀放下。

He was like, you know, drop the machete.

那人只是看着他，说：‘来啊，拿啊。’

And the guy just looked at him and was like, yeah, come and get it.

你知道，意思就是：‘你过河试试看会发生什么。’

You know, was like, yeah, you cross the river and see what happens.

你觉得他后来弄明白了吗，或者他们后来学会了怎么用砍刀？

Do you think he figured out, or they later figured out how to use a machete?

哦，他们懂砍刀。

Oh, they know machete.

他们懂砍刀。

They understand machete.

是的。

Yeah.

他们会去抢砍刀。

They do raids for machetes.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

他们明白力量

They understand the power