#492 – 里克·贝托：史上最伟大的吉他手，音乐的历史与未来

对吧？

Right?

永远。

Forever.

是的。

Yeah.

当你弹奏吉他独奏时，你甚至不会去想这些事情像这样的细节。

And you don't even think about stuff like that when you're playing a guitar solo.

当你弹奏你的《Comfortably Numb》吉他独奏时，你每一个微小的动作都必须从空中精准地拨动你手指所在的那根弦来发出音符，这些都是你做的精细调整。

Every little thing that you do if you're playing your comfortably numb guitar solo, you have to, out of midair, strike the string that your finger's on to play the note, and these are all fine adjustments that you're doing.

我只是一个业余的休闲演奏者，但哇。

I'm I'm just a hobbyist recreational player, but if wow.

你让我回忆起很久以前的事了。

You're taking me all the way back.

你说得对。

You're right.

这种触觉和物理层面的东西真的很棘手。

It's the haptic, the physical aspect of it is really tricky.

《Comfortably Numb》是个很好的例子。

Comfortably numb is a good example.

不过如果你演奏主旋律，就得获得非常干净的声音。

Though if you do lead, you have to get a super clean sound.

这在你快速演奏时尤其重要，你必须做到极其精准。

Now that's both when you're playing fast, you you want it to be super precise.

但当你慢速演奏时，比如只弹一个音并持续揉弦，这个音也必须非常干净。

But when you play slow, when you have one note and you're holding it and you're bending it, it better be really clean.

是的。

Yes.

要做到这一点，我想你必须把手指放在正确的位置，另外还有老茧，这样才不会疼。

And for that, it's I guess you have to really place the finger in the right place, plus there's the well, there's the calluses, so it doesn't hurt.

然后就是弦在手指弧度上的位置，它应该落在哪里？

And then the positioning of the string on the curvature of of the finger, where does it fall?

比如，你得把手指弯到什么程度？

Like, how much do you bend the finger?

你必须

You have to

要有足够的肉来真正抬起琴弦并改变音高。

have enough of flesh on it to actually raise the raise the string and pitch.

没错。

Yep.

否则，它就会。

Otherwise, it Yeah.

因为你是在用指腹抬起琴弦。

Because you're lifting it with part of a flesh.

当然，你得决定——看你有多较真，你是想当一个完美、标准的乐手，还是想学吉米·亨德里克斯那样？

And, of course, you have to decide, depends how OCD you are, do you wanna be, like, the perfect, the proper musician, or do you wanna do a Hendrix?

所以拇指要搭在琴颈上方。

So the thumb over the top.

远远超过顶部。

Way over the top.

是的。

Yes.

所以，比如，如果你这里有一个指板，我认为更古典的吉他手会保持手指尖与指板完全垂直的完美对齐，而像亨德里克斯则会说：管他呢。

And so, like, you if if you have a fretboard here, I think the more, like, classical guitarists, the very proper, perfect perpendicular alignment of the the fingertips to the fretboard versus, like, Hendrix is like, fuck it.

你们这些书呆子。

You nerds.

我要用这种杂乱无章的方式，因为混乱本身就是魔力的一部分。

I'm gonna I'm gonna do it with the messiness is part of the magic.

当然，像B.B.金的手指姿势看起来也挺随意的，但他的音色却异常干净。

Of course, like, BB King is also kinda messy looking in terms of his positioning of the fingers, but his tone is incredibly clean.

是的。

Yes.

非常干净。

Super clean.

所以，这或许告诉我们，任何指板位置都有可能弹出极其干净的音色。

So, like, that teaches you that maybe any position can converge towards a super clean tone.

你只需要去摸索出来。

You just have to figure it out.

我认为很大程度上

I think a lot

这与他们如何佩戴吉他有关。

of it has to do with how they wear their guitars.

如果你把吉他背得很低，如果你是亨德里克斯那样把吉他

If you wear your guitar low, if you're Hendrix and you're wearing your guitar

确实如此。

That's true.

如果你把吉他背得更低更低，那么你就没法把手指放在琴弦上方，而且拇指可以作为一种方式来消音低音弦，防止它们在通过大音量放大器演奏时发出杂音。

If you're wearing it lower lower, then you you can't get your fingers on top of it like And the thumb acts as as a way to mute the lower strings from ringing if you're playing through a loud amplifier.

所以当你演奏主音时，有太多其他的微调，因为你必须稍微消音其他琴弦，防止它们发出声音。

So there's so many other micro adjustments when you're playing leads, because you have to kinda mute the other strings that are so they don't ring out.

是的。

Mhmm.

如果你在演奏结尾处的独奏部分，当舒适麻木地弹奏第九品G弦上的第一个音符并进行推弦时，是的。

If you're play playing the first note and comfortably numb at the solo at the end, and you're at the ninth fret of the g string, and you bend that Mhmm.

如果你推弦G弦时不小心碰到了下面的B弦，是的。

If you bend that g string and you accidentally hit the b string under it Mhmm.

你不希望那根弦发出杂音。

You don't want that ringing.

所以你需要把食指稍微倾斜，用来消音。

So you have to kind of angle your index finger so it To mute.

来消掉那根弦的杂音。

To mute that.

这些细微的调整你根本不会意识到，我的意思是，你演奏时根本不会去想这些细节。

So all these micro adjustments that you don't even think about I mean, you're not thinking about that Lex when you're playing it.

你已经练了太多次，这些动作已经成了你本能的一部分。

You've done it so many times that these things are just part of your of your brain.

这就是为什么学习乐器对孩子的大脑发育如此有帮助。

That's why this is such a great brain developer for kids to learn instruments.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，你得解决这个难题。

Of course, you have to solve that puzzle.

刚开始的时候一定很让人沮丧，比如按和弦。

It must be really frustrating in the beginning, like holding a chord.

对。

Yes.

而且手指还会疼。

Like, of them and it hurts too.

对吧？

Right?

确实如此。

It does.

原声吉他。

Acoustic guitar.

不过没那么久。

Not for that long, though.

就大概一周吧。

For, like, a week.

一

A

几天吧。

couple yeah.

几周。

Couple weeks.

我可不想打击任何人。

Cup I don't wanna discourage anyone.

你知道的？

You know?

其实学一些基础的东西还挺简单的。

It's it's actually pretty easy to learn basic stuff.

对。

Right.

但疼痛是暂时的，我想这就是我想表达的重点。

But the the pain is temporary, I guess, is the point I'm trying to make.

没错。

It is.

那还有别的呢？

So so what else?

那么从物理层面来说，弹几个和弦之后，如果你在学吉他，接下来的路该怎么走？

So the physical component, play a few chords, where does the journey continue if you're learning guitar?

嗯，如果你弹电吉他，接下来就会开始玩单音演奏之类的东西。

Well, then it's like, if you play electric guitar, then you get into single note playing and stuff like that.

对我来说，到了那里才真正变得特别有趣。

That's where it gets, to me, where it gets really fun.

你知道吗，单音演奏加上riff，比如《Back in Black》这首歌，它的旋律里就嵌入了riff。

You know, you have single note playing that with riffs, if you think of Back in Black, right, that has a a riff embedded in the in the actual melody.

或者很多歌曲都有riff，像吉米·亨德里克斯的作品，那些和弦riff让你在琴颈上移动，同时用到所有手指之类的。

Or many songs that have riffs, the Hendrix stuff that has chordal riffs, and you're moving up the neck and and involving all the fingers and things like that.

所以这真的取决于你想演奏什么风格。

So there's it really depends on what you wanna what styles you wanna play.

所以你在考虑学歌。

So you're thinking about song learning.

学歌的不同组成部分。

So different components of song learning.

歌曲中的riff、主旋律部分。

So riffs in songs, lead in songs.

然后你

And then you

如果是《Stairway to Heaven》这样的歌，就会有指弹技巧。

have finger picking if you have Stairway to Heaven, songs like that.

那你想学这个吗？

How about wanting to learn that?

这涉及到指弹，因为你得单独拨出和弦中的某些音符，同时弹两个音，而且要反复多次。

That involves finger picking because the you have to isolate certain notes of the chord and play two together, you know, and multiple times.

在学习过程中，你会遇到几个关键的选择点。

There's a few crossroads where you get to select things.

所以我想你是在说，如果你是右撇子，右手可以用手指，也可以用拨片。

So I guess you're speaking to the fact there's a if you're a righty, there's a right hand, you can use your fingers, or you can use a pick.

没错。

Correct.

这是一个你需要做出的选择。

And it's a choice you make.

而且有时候你会两者都用。

And sometimes you use both.

因为在《Stairway to Heaven》里，开头用的是手指，或者手指和拨片结合使用，他们称之为混合拨弦。

Because in Stairway to Heaven, you're using the fingers at the beginning, or fingers and pick, hybrid they call it hybrid picking.

然后之后，你会用拨片来弹奏拨弦的节奏型。

And then later on, you're using the pick to flat pick the picking patterns.

在乐理方面，你会建议人们学习音阶、和弦以及相关的理论吗？

On the music theory front, do you recommend people learn scales and chords and, like, the theory of it?

我会说，是之后的事。

Later on, I would say.

我不认为必须一开始就学。

I wouldn't say necessarily right right off the bat.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，我认为学习歌曲是你应该做的第一件事，因为你想让人们保持动力。

I think I think learning songs is the is the first thing that you should do because you wanna keep people motivated.

所以你要让他们，比如说，爱上音乐和演奏。

So you get them to, like, fall in love with music and playing.

好的。

Alright.

这需要几个月吗？

And that takes a couple months?

三个月？

Three months?

取决于他们的积极性有多高。

Depends on how motivated they are.

所以你建议每天练习，

So you recommend practicing,

每天吗？

what, every day?

每天都练。

Every day.

我儿子德莱恩几年前刚开始学吉他时，我说，每天练十分钟，一周七天，比一天练一小时效果更好，因为总时长差不多。

My son, Dylan, when he started learning the guitar a couple years ago, I said, it's better to practice ten minutes a day, seven days a week, than to practice one day for an hour, which is roughly the same amount of time.

是的。

Yeah.

但通常会变成更长时间。

But it usually turns into something longer.

但如果你生活忙碌，知道吗，休息一天，这一天就会变成一周，一周又变成一个月，突然间你已经好几个月没碰过乐器了。

But otherwise, like, if your busy life, you know, taking a day off, that day turns into a week, and then a week turns into a month, and all of a sudden you haven't touched the instrument for months.

这就是为什么我总是把吉他放在架子上。

Which is why I leave my guitar on a stand all the time.

这样当我走过它时，就会想，好吧。

So that if I walk by it, I'm like, okay.

我随便拿起来弹一会儿。

I'll just pick it up for a second.

然后这一会儿就会变成十分钟、一小时，甚至两小时。

And then that second turns into ten minutes and an hour, two hours.

好的。

Alright.

我们得聊聊这个Dylan的视频。

We gotta talk about this Dylan video.

所以这可能是最早的一段

So this might be one of the earliest

那是第一个。

That's the first one.

这是频道上的第一个视频吗？

That's the first video on the channel?

实际上这发生在创建频道之前，因为这段视频最初在Facebook上走红，之后我才上传到YouTube。

It it was actually before the channel, because this actually blew up on Facebook, and then I put it on YouTube after.

所以如果可以的话。

So if it's okay.

是的。

Yeah.

好的，Dylan。

Okay, Dylan.

我们要进行有史以来最难的听音训练测试。

We're gonna do the hardest ear training test of all time.

你准备好了吗？

Are you ready?

太好了。

Great.

哦。

Oh.

我来简单说一下背景：我制作这个是为了我朋友谢恩的妻子，她想看看，因为谢恩是我当时在制作的艺人，他当时也在场，而戴伦那天也过来了。

Now I I just a quick backstory I on made this for my friend Shane's wife who wanted to see because Shane, that was a friend that I was producing, and he was there, and Dylan had come down the day in the day.

我说：嘿，来看看这个。

And I said, oh, check this out.

然后我放了这段内容。

And I played this stuff.

他说：太棒了。

He's like, that's amazing.

你能做个视频给我，让我拿给妻子看吗？

Can you make a video so I can show my wife?

我当时正要去参加一个学校董事会会议，因为我在迪伦学校的董事会任职。

And I was on the way to a school board meeting, because I was on the school board at Dylan's school.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我说，嘿，迪伦，下楼来一下。

And I said, hey, Dylan, come downstairs.

我想拍这个视频。

I wanna make this video.

就一分钟。

Take one minute.

只是需要为我朋友谢恩做这件事。

Just need to do this thing for my friend Shane.

然后他说，我不想做。

And he's like, I don't want to.

我说，来吧。

And I said, come on.

这只需要一分钟。

This will take one minute.

我不想去。

I don't want to.

于是我对妻子说，你能叫迪伦下楼来吗？

So I said to my wife, I'm like, would you tell Dylan to come downstairs?

我想录这个视频。

I wanna do this video.

就花一分钟。

Take one minute.

她说，迪伦，下楼来。

She's like, Dylan, go downstairs.

他当时嘴里塞满了糖果，因为他正在吃糖。

And he had he has a mouthful of candy there because he was eating candy.

所以如果你看他，他做这件事的时候嘴里真的塞满了糖果。

So if you look at him, he's he's he's literally has a mouthful of candy while he's doing this.

我们应该在脸书上提一下，它传播得非常广。

And we should say on Facebook, it went quite viral.

是的。

Yeah.

大概有，我不知道，8000万次观看吧。

Like, at, I don't know, 80,000,000 views.

好像有大约25万条评论，差不多这个数。

Something like it had, like, 250,000 comments, something like that.

太疯狂了。

Insane.

迪伦当时多大？

How old is Dylan here?

他八岁。

He's eight.

八岁。

Eight years old.

是的。

Yeah.

你能再多讲讲是怎么发现Dylan有绝对音感的吗？

Can you actually give some more backstory about, like, how you discovered that Dylan has perfect pitch?

当Dylan大约两岁的时候，我正在和我哥哥John进行视频通话，我当时说：‘John，你看看这个。’

So when Dylan was about two, he I was doing a FaceTime with my brother John, and and I was I was like, check this out, John.

于是我播放了Journey乐队Neil Schon的《Stone in Love》独奏部分。

And I played the Stone in Love, Neil Schoen's solo from Journey.

然后我说：‘你看看这个。’

And and I was like, check this out.

Dylan跟着唱了起来，我哥哥John说：‘哇哦。’

And Dylan would sing along, and and my my brother John was like, wow.

Dylan能把所有音符都唱出来。

Dylan can sing all the notes.

我当时说：‘是的。'

And I was like, yeah.

然后我播放了齐柏林飞艇的《Black Dog》，Dylan也会跟着唱。

And then I played Black Dog, Zeppelin, and Dylan would sing that.

那时候我就觉得，Dylan的耳朵真好。

And it's like, Dylan's got a good ear.

于是我和约翰就说，嗯，我们小时候耳朵也不错。

And then John and I were like, well, we have good ears too.

也许我们那时候也能做到这一点。

So maybe we could have done that when we were that age.

又过了几年。

So a couple more years goes by.

他那时候大约三岁半，我在车里。

Well, he was about three and a half, and I'm in the car.

我对Dylan说：‘唱一下《星球大战》主题曲吧。’

I was like, Dylan, sing the Star Wars theme.

他唱了出来，我一听，发现音调完全对。

And he sings it, and I'm like, that's in the right key.

我查了一下。

And I checked.

我用手机播放了那段旋律。

I play it on my phone.

我当时惊呆了。

I was oh my gosh.

于是我问他：‘唱一下超人主题曲吧’，因为前一周我们一直在听约翰·威廉姆斯的原声带，他真的唱出来了。

Then I ask him, play sing the Superman theme because we'd been listening to John Williams' soundtracks the week before, and he sings that.

而且音准完全正确，于是我让他再唱一首歌。

And that was in the right key, and I ask him another song.

于是我掉转车头。

So I turn the car around.

我开车返回录音室。

I go back to the studio.

我走到钢琴旁。

I go to the piano.

我弹了降B音，戴伦说：《星球大战》。

I hit the note b flat, and Dylan says, Star Wars.

《星球大战》开头是一个大的降B大和弦，但你听到的主要音就是降B。

Star Wars starts on a big b flat major chord, but it's the note b flat is the main one that you hear.

然后我弹了G音，他说：《超人》。

And then I played the note g, and he goes Superman.

这正是《超人》主题曲中铜管部分的第一个音。

And that's the first note in the trumpet part of the of the Superman theme.

然后我意识到他有绝对音感，于是五分钟内，我教他认识了十二个音名，嗯。

And then I realized that he had perfect pitch, and then in five minutes, I taught him the name of the 12 notes Mhmm.

他其实早就知道这些音，只是不知道它们的名字。

Which he already knew, but he just didn't know the names.

哦，所以你只是把他已知的音和名称对应起来。

Oh, so you just associate the the names to the thing he know.

你觉得他心里是怎么想的？

What do you think is this in his mind?

因为这不仅仅是单个音符。

Because it's not just individual notes.

他能够，比如说，听出所有东西。

He can, like, hear everything.

是的。

Yeah.

那是什么呢？

What is that?

他看不到颜色。

He doesn't see colors.

他只是说每个音符听起来都完全不同。

He just says every note sounds completely different.

哇。

Wow.

就像你说的，也许这是一种语言上的差异。

Like you said, maybe it's a language thing.

是的。

Yeah.

因为事实上，他只是学会了这种语言。

Because there really is a he just learned the language.

是的。

Yeah.

这种语言。

The language.

就像完美掌握了母语般的音乐流利度，如果你这么想的话。

It's like it's like perfect it's like native music fluency, if you think of it like that.

那我们来听一些这段音乐吧。

So let's let's listen to some of this.

转过身。

Turn around.

好了，开始吧。

Here we go.

越快越好。

Fast as you can.

我们先从单音开始，然后练习音程，再是和弦。

We're gonna start with single notes, and we're gonna do some intervals then chords.

好的。

Okay.

我们开始吧。

Here we go.

A，C#，Bb，C，B，A1。

A, c sharp, b flat, c, b, a one.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Good.

一次弹奏多个音符。

Notes at once.

我们开始吧。

Here we go.

C降号。

C flat.

太棒了。

Great.

这个怎么样？

How about this?

B降B。

B b

这太不可思议了。

This is incredible.

C，B降号。

C, b flat.

那这个呢？

And then how about this?

降E音。

E flat.

这是什么？

What is it?

降E音。

E e flat.

正确。

Correct.

他很生气。

He's he's annoyed.

他当时很生气。

He was annoyed.

是的。

Yeah.

这部分，当我弹奏接下来的和弦时，我认为这正是这个视频爆红的原因。

The the part of this, when I play these next chords, that's really I think why the video went so viral.

接下来这部分，我将演奏这些极其复杂的复和弦。

The next part of this where I play these super complex polychords.

好的。

Okay.

我来为你演奏一些复和弦。

I'm gonna do some polychords for you.

这些真的会很难。

These are really gonna be hard.

你准备好了吗？

You ready?

这是什么？

What's this?

C增和弦，也就是D♭增和弦。

C augmented for d flat augmented.

好的。

Okay.

唱一个降B音。

Sing a b flat.

非常好。

Very good.

这个和弦是什么？

What's this chord?

太棒了。

Great.

唱一个升F音。

Sing an f sharp.

太出色了。

Excellent.

这个和弦是什么？

What's this chord?

我是不是已经降B了？

Am I already flat b?

很好。

Great.

这是什么和弦？

What's this chord?

F大调上的N九和弦。

N nine over f major.

F大调上的D N九和弦。

D n nine over f major.

所以我得看看我的手才能确定那是什么。嗯。

So I had to look at my hand to make sure that that's what it was Mhmm.

因为它们都是转位和弦。

Because they're all in inversions.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为这个视频能如此病毒式传播的原因是，一个人对音乐了解得越多，他们就越会分享这个视频。

So I think the reason that this went so viral is that the more that someone knew about music, the more that they shared the video.

因为这些复和弦，那些最懂音乐的人一看就惊呆了，天哪。

Because these polychords so the people that were the best musicians were, like, were would looked at it and was like, oh my god.

你知道，是C增和弦叠加在D♭增和弦上。

You know, it's c augmented over d flat augmented.

嗯。

Mhmm.

第二个和弦是A♭大和弦叠加在A大和弦上，但它们都用了转位。

And the the second chord was a flat major over a major, but they were both in inversion.

对吧？

Right?

所以它就像是一个第一转位的A♭大和弦，加上一个第一转位的A大和弦。

So it was like a a first inversion, a flat major chord, first inversion, a major chord.

然后是小和弦叠加在D♭大和弦上，接着是E加九叠加在F大和弦上。

And then a minor over d flat major, and then e add nine over f major.

对于一个八岁孩子来说，我的意思是，对任何人来说

And for an eight year old I mean, for anyone

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且它们都是紧密排列的，彼此紧挨着。

Plus they're all close voiced, they're all just right next to each other.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

并不是那种你能清晰听到的风格。

It's not like, you know, where you can hear them clear.

它们都集中在钢琴的中音区。

It's all in the midrange of the piano.

所以你必须仔细聆听，而且你得逐一分析每一个和弦。

So you have to really listen, and and you have to die he has to dissect each one.

比如，那里弹的是哪些音？

Like, what are the notes being played there?

那它的理论是什么呢？

And and what is like, what's the theory?

因为他实际上是在用音乐理论来分析这些音符。

Because he's actually using music theory to dissect them.

这些和弦的各个组成部分一定在他脑子里听起来完全不同，非常清晰。

It must be in his brain, those components of the chords all sound different, like, very clearly different.

是的。

Yes.

这真的太不可思议了。

It's truly incredible.

人类的思维真是不可思议。

The human mind is incredible.

所以你的意思是，生命最初几个月听到的东西，其中一部分就是这样的？

And so you're you're saying, like, some part of that is the things you hear in the first few months of life.

我做过一件事，我播放了我称之为高信息量的音乐。

I did a thing where I I played what I call high information music.

嗯。

Mhmm.

高信息量的音乐就是巴赫的《平均律钢琴曲集》中的赋格，任何巴赫的作品都算。

High information music would be Bach, well tempered clavier, fugues, any anything Bach.

我会演奏《平均律钢琴曲集》，我有个朋友，是位土耳其钢琴家，是我听过最棒的即兴演奏者之一。

And I would play the well tempered Clavier, and I would play I have a friend, Turkish pianist, who's one of the greatest improvisers I've ever heard.

他叫埃登·埃森。

His name is Eiden Essen.

我会把埃登的即兴演奏放给迪伦听。

And I would play Eiden's improvisations for Dylan.

里面有着非常复杂的和声与旋律线条。

It had very sophisticated harmony and linear things in it.

还有基思·贾雷特，主要是爵士、古典和现代古典音乐。

And Keith Jarrett and mainly jazz classical and modern classical music.

等他出生后，我们才会听摇滚乐。

And then then we would play listen to rock music once he was born.

在 Dylan 出生前，我就对着我妻子的肚子说话了，是的。

I'm talking on my wife's stomach before Dylan was born Mhmm.

每天晚上从15岁开始，持续三十分钟。

Starting at 15 for thirty minutes a night.

Dylan 出生后，我每天早上都会陪他坐一个小时，听音乐。

And then when Dylan was born, I would sit with him for an hour every morning and listen to music.

是的。

Mhmm.

我会看着他。

And I would look at him.

为了让婴儿听到这些音素并发展语言能力，语言习得必须涉及社交大脑。

In order for this for them to hear these phonemes apparently, and develop this language, or get the the language acquisition has to involve the social brain.

所以，是的。

So Mhmm.

当孩子看着你时，当婴儿注视着你时，他们会盯着你的嘴巴，从中获取社交线索。

When kids look at you, you're when baby is looking at you, they're looking at your mouth, and they're getting social cues from from that.

这也是另一个组成部分，表明一个词在哪里开始或结束。

And this is also another component of saying, this is where this word stops or starts and stops.

这就是音素如何彼此分离的方式。

These are how this the phonemes are separated from one another.

这就是它们如何连接的方式。

These are how they're connected.

所以我相信所有孩子生来都具有绝对音感，然后大约在九个月大时，他们开始逐渐失去它。

So I believe that all kids are born with perfect pitch, and then around nine months, they begin to lose it.

如果你不调动他们的社交大脑，发出这些音高——我从未对迪伦说过这是C音，这是降B音，这是G音。

If you don't engage their social brain, making these pitches I never played pitches for Dylan that said, this is a c, this is a b flat, this is a g.

我只是播放复杂的

I just played complex

嗯。

Mhmm.

高信息量的音乐给他听，并且和他一起互动。

High information music for him, and and played with him.

这甚至可能更普遍地适用于高信息量的语言。

And it applies maybe even more generally to high information language.

是的。

Yes.

这在他们出生前就开始了。

And it starts before they're born.

我认为我曾看过一些研究早期语言的神经科学、神经生物学和心理学的杰出科学家。

I think I I I saw some some of the these incredible scientists that work on the neuroscience and neurobiology, the psychology of language in early life.

我认为关键部分在于，在母亲肚子里时，孩子就在聆听母亲说话。

I think a big part is in the mother's stomach, you're listening to the mother speak.

对。

Yes.

那是

That's

没错。

right.

所以，就像这样，在语言方面，你已经是在学习语言了。

So, like, that's that's how on the language side, you're picking up the language already.

没错。

That's right.

而且你也在学习音乐语言。

And you're picking up the music musical language.

所以可以称之为母语音乐流利度。

So native music fluency, you could call it.

所以如果母亲坐着听巴赫和一些比波普爵士乐，你就有相当不错的机会。

So if the mother's sitting back and listening to Bach and some bebop jazz, you have a you have a pretty good chance.

机会要大得多。

Much better chance.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Alright.

所以当我们回溯过去，谈到乔·帕斯和波普爵士乐时，你之前还有趣地讨论过什么是波普爵士乐，以及像乔·帕斯这样的人。

So that as we unwind our way back, Joe Pass and bebop, you were you were funny enough talking about what is bebop jazz and and be people like Joe Pass.

而在你的生活中，你父亲竟然也在听这种极其复杂而精致的音乐。

And in your own life, your dad was somehow listening to that kind of incredibly complex and sophisticated music.

但他并不是音乐家。

But wasn't a musician.

这真的很奇怪。

Which very weird.

我有六个兄弟姐妹，我们始终搞不懂为什么爸爸喜欢这么高深的爵士乐。

We never my I have six siblings, and we could never figure out why dad liked really sophisticated jazz.

那时候我们觉得这再正常不过了。

We just took it for granted at that time.

是的。

Yeah.

就觉得理所当然。

Just took it for granted.

我父亲于2004年去世，我们从未真正谈过这件事，但他和我经常一起听音乐。

And my dad passed away in 2004, and we never really talked about that, but he and I used to listen to music together all the time.

我们会放一张黑胶唱片。

We'd put we'd put on a record.

我坐在房间的一边，他坐在另一边，一言不发，完整地听完A面。

I'd sit on one side of the room, he'd sit on the other, and not say a word, listen through the whole side a.

我翻到B面，继续听，依然一言不发，嗯。

I'd go flip it over, listen to side b, never say a word Mhmm.

然后站起来去做别的事。

And then get up and go do stuff.

我们一直这样相处。

And we did that all the time.

所以你第一次让父亲感到骄傲，是因为那首乔·帕斯的曲子。

And so the first time you impressed your dad was with the Joe Pass song.

对吧？

Right?

顺便说一下，我们得聊聊这首歌，因为大家可能都忘了，人们只是觉得你是个善于沟通的人之类的。

And by the way, we'll have to go to this song because people must have forgot because People people just think you're, like, a good communicator or something.

他们没意识到你吉他弹得多好，实际上你很多乐器都弹得很好，但吉他尤其出色，而且还有这个视频。

They they don't realize how good you are at guitar, how good you are, actually, a lot of instruments, but guitar, especially, and there's this video.

史上最伟大的吉他独奏，没有之一。

The greatest guitar solo period.

你能给我讲讲这段特别复杂精细的独奏的背景吗？

Can you give me some context for this particular intricate, complicated solo?

乔·帕斯是谁？

Who's Joe Pass?

乔·帕斯是一位吉他手。

Joe Pass was a guitarist.

他生于1929年，卒于1994年，是最伟大的比波普演奏家和独奏吉他手之一。

He lived from 1929 to 1994, and he was one of the greatest bebop players and solo guitar player.

他在1973年发行了一张名为《Virtuoso》的唱片，那是我十年级时，我父亲送给我的圣诞礼物。

So he made a record that this is off of called Virtuoso in 1973 that my dad gave me for Christmas when I was in tenth grade.

他说，这不像我父亲的风格，我父亲在铁路上工作，你知道的，他话不多。

And he said, and this is not like my dad, my dad worked for the railroad, he was very, you know, few words spoken.

他出生于1919年，他说，如果你能学会像这样弹吉他，那你的人生就有所成就了。

Born in 1919, he said, if you ever learn to play guitar like this, you've accomplished something with your life.

我当时就愣住了，心想什么？

And I was like, what?

所以这张唱片直到圣诞节后大约三月份才被拆封。

So this record state was unopened until about March after Christmas.

然后有一天，我就想，好吧。

And one day, was like, okay.

我把它打开，放上唱片。

I'll open it up, I put it on.

我开始听了起来。

I start listening to it.

我当时就感觉，哇。

And I was like, woah.

这还挺酷的。

This is kinda cool.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

于是我心想，我觉得我能弄懂其中一些东西。

And so I said, I think I can figure out some of this stuff.

所以我弄懂了这个部分。

So I figured out this thing.

主要是靠听出来的吗？

Is it by by ear mostly?

是的。

Yeah.

就是靠听。

Just by ear.

我根本不知道任何和弦之类的。

I didn't know any of the chords or anything.

如果你能在这里听一小段的话。

If you can listen to a little bit here.

回到那个兄弟对兄弟的Ginovanelli曲子，Carlos Rios演奏的那段，真的特别难。

To go back to that brother brother to brother Ginovanelli thing with Carlos Rios playing, that stuff is incredibly hard.

这个，我一开始根本不知道这些和弦。

This, I'm starting don't know any of these chords.

所以我从头开始。

So I start out.

我甚至不知道那个

I don't even know what

和弦是什么，但我发现我我

that chord is, but I figured out I I

只是，这很奇怪。

just and it's weird.

我的意思是，看看那个奇怪的小节。

I mean, look at that weird bar.

所以你只是在摸索，把手指放在各种位置上试弹。

So you were just finding like, playing around, putting your fingers on the various positions.

对。

Right.

尝试每一种手指的组合。

Trying every combination of fingers.

我以前从来没弹过这个和弦。

I'd never played that chord.

这个和弦看起来很奇怪。

It's a weird looking chord.

是的。

Yeah.

但我一直移动手指，直到听到某个声音像是：哦，就是这个了。

And but I kept I moved my fingers around till I heard towards sounding like, oh, that's it.

没错。

Definitely.

我当时就在那儿，是的。

And I was Yeah.

看了看我的手。

Looked at my hand.

我当时想，这是什么？

I was like, what is that?

完全不知道那是什么。

Had no idea what it was.

所以你当时与音乐产生了共鸣，你真的与音乐紧密相连。

So you were connected to the you were really connected to the music.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这就是为什么你能听出来，不一定是因为你有绝对音高。

And so that that's why you can hear it's not necessarily did you even you you didn't have perfect pitch.

没有。

No.

你甚至连相对音高都没有。

You and not even relative pitch.

没有。

No.

我没有。

I did not.

是的。

Yeah.

没有。

No.

我对音程一无所知。

I didn't know anything about intervals.

我对音乐理论一无所知，什么都不懂。

I didn't know anything about music theory, anything.

这全是

This is all

你只是在尝试不同的形状。

just You're just like playing around with different shapes.

这太神奇了。

That's amazing.

我是说，看看那个奇怪的横杠。

Mean, look at that weird bar there.

但之后你就开始接触这些东西了。

But then you get into these things.

所以

So

那些东西，我能搞明白。

that stuff there, I could figure out.

然后是这个。

And then this.

那些东西我能弄懂。

That stuff I could figure out.

然后这些部分

And then these things

这些只是某种东西的倒置，但我当时不知道。

here, those are just inversions of an but I didn't know that.

我听过乔在唱片里弹奏过这个。

I'd heard Joe play that on the record.

这是

This is the

我在那里最后一首歌。

last song I had there.

我听了好多遍，然后就开始反复播放，一遍又一遍，试图模仿它？

I listened to a bunch of times and I start So you just replay over and over and over and over, and you're, like, trying to replicate it?

是的。

Yes.

我记住了每一个不同的和弦指法。

And I'm memorizing every different chord shape.

所有我以前从未弹过的和弦指法。

All chord shapes that I had never played before.

你会建议人们在一首非常复杂的歌曲上这样做吗？

Would you recommend people do something like that on a really complicated song?

是的。

Yeah.

但网上有那么多YouTube视频，你可以直接去学，而不需要非得这样。

But there's so many YouTube videos that you can go and just learn it without having to yes.

是的。

Yeah.

我会推荐。

I would recommend.

我觉得挣扎的过程才是关键。

I feel like the struggle The struggle is where it's at.

这在教育的普遍情况下也是如此。

This is true for education in general.

人们总是喜欢，有这么多教育者试图让学习变得更简单、更有趣，这些都很好，很棒。

People like, there's all these educators that try to make learning easier, and more fun and all that kind of stuff great, wonderful.

但其中一部分关键就在于这种挣扎。

But part of the thing is the struggle.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

但，是的，你真是疯了。

But, yeah, let's You're nuts.

我听过很多这样的乐句，所以我知道那是他的风格，而这些乐句里，他经常使用类似的想法。

I heard licks like that all over this, so I knew that that was and then these licks here, he plays a lot of ideas like that.

这基本上就是顶部音符构成的C9和弦。

That's basically a c nine chord in the top notes of it.

所以这些都只是同一个和弦的不同转位。

So all these are just inversions of of the same chord.

所以如果我能弹出这个和弦，那就只是要弄清楚单个音符了。

So if I could play that, then it's just figuring out the single notes.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，好吧。

So Okay.

所以，如果你只看这里的第一部分，当他演奏这段前奏时

So if you just take this first part here, when he goes so this this intro part

你一拆解起来，听起来就简单多了。

You make it sound so simple when you break it down.

顺便说一句，乔·巴斯，是个了不起的吉他手。

And and by and by the way, Joe Bass, incredible guitar player.

这很明显。

Like, this is obvious.

他即兴演奏了这一切。

And he improvised all this.

他本来可以弹

He could have played

像这样。

it like this.

但你知道，第一个是单个音符。

But, you know, the first was the individual note.

看看这个。

Look at that.

这很难。

That's hard.

也许可以这样解释。

Maybe explain it like that.

听起来更真实一些。

That sounds more more realistic.

你能复制的多种音乐风格的数量简直令人难以置信。

The amount of different genres that you're able to replicate is just incredible.

这不过是把针头拿起来，移到那里，然后稍微退回去一点，哦，就在那儿。

This is just taking the needle, moving it there, then going back a little oh, there.

到最后，唱片被刮得不成样子了。

And then by the end, the record was so scratched.

确实如此，但这一切都值得。

It was but it was worth it.

当我放给我爸爸听的时候，嗯。

When I played it for my dad Mhmm.

他简直不敢相信，我是说，他没有直接说'这太棒了'。

He couldn't believe I mean, he didn't say that's amazing.

他当时就说，相当不错。

He was just like, pretty good.

那么，波普爵士乐在音乐史上扮演了什么角色？

So what was the role of bebop jazz in the history of music?

看起来它对你的生活产生了很大影响。

It seems like it was influential in your life.

还有一个人，你和Flea的那次采访真是太棒了。

Another guy, you had an incredible interview with Flea.

大家应该去听听那一期。

People should go listen to that one.

那是一次很棒的对话。

It's a great conversation.

让我惊讶的一点是，弗利竟然受到如此多音乐流派的影响。

One of the things that surprised me is just how many musical genres influence Flea.

而且那家伙还穿着迈尔斯·戴维斯的衣服出现了。

And the guy showed up in a Miles Davis

没错。

That's right.

T恤衫。

T shirt.

比波普。

Bebop.

迈尔斯·戴维斯曾与查理·帕克一起演奏过。嗯。

Miles Davis played with Charlie Parker Mhmm.

他当时18岁。

When he was 18 years old.

查理·帕克确实是他真正的导师。

And that's he was Charlie Parker was really his mentor.

你能跟我解释一下吗，为什么在你采访过的许多人中，以及一般来说，

Can you explain to me why with many of the folks you've interviewed, and in general out there,

在爵士乐的世界里，所有道路都通向迈尔斯·戴维斯，为什么他是如此有影响力的人物？

in the in the world of jazz, all roads lead to Miles Davis, why he's such an influential figure?

因为他是爵士乐史上最伟大的革新者。

Because he was the greatest innovator in the history of jazz.

他引领了所有这些不同风格的爵士乐。

He was at the forefront of all these different styles of jazz.

我的意思是，他最初是波普乐手，然后他发行了像《酷的诞生》这样的唱片，还有调式爵士、硬波普，以及像《泼妇酿酒》这样的唱片，那大概可以算是融合爵士的开端。

I mean, he started as a bebop player, and then he he had records like the birth birth of cool, and modal jazz, and hard bop, and records like bitches brew where you started to I guess you would call fusion.

你开始接触到这些唱片。

You start to get these records.

迈尔斯·戴维斯主要有两个乐队。

You had two main groups of Miles Davis.

一个是五十年代的迈尔斯·戴维斯五重奏，另一个是六十年代的迈尔斯·戴维斯五重奏。

You had the Miles Davis fifties quintet and the Miles Davis sixties quintet.

是的。

Mhmm.

迈尔斯虽然和很多人合作过录音，但五十年代的五重奏里有约翰·科尔特兰。

Now Miles made records with many people, but the fifties quintet had John Coltrane in it.

我的意思是，钢琴手换过好几任。

I mean, it had different piano players.

可能是温顿·凯利，但贝斯手是保罗·钱伯斯，鼓手是菲利·乔·琼斯。

Could be Wynton Kelly, but Paul Chambers in the bass, Philly Joe Jones in the drums.

这个组合录制了极其重要的专辑。

And that particular group was made just incredibly important records.

然后他六十年代的乐队有赫比·汉考克弹钢琴，罗恩·卡特负责贝斯，托尼·威廉斯打鼓，韦恩·肖特吹萨克斯。

And then he had his sixties group, which was Herbie Hancock in the piano, Ron Carter in the bass, Tony Williams on the drums, and Wayne Shorter on the saxophone.

他们录制了所有这些极其重要的唱片。

And they made all these incredibly important records.

我忘了在和你的访谈中是谁说的，但他们提到，像迈尔斯·戴维斯这样的音乐感觉像是，

I forget who said it in the interview with you, but they talked about, like, Miles Davis, his music feeling like,

我觉得像是脚趾悬在悬崖边缘之类的。

I think I think toes hanging over the cliff or something like this.

意思是，总有一种风险。

Meaning, like, there's always a risk.

你愿意冒着彻底搞砸现场的风险，正是这种感觉赋予了音乐生命力。

There's a danger that you're willing to make to fuck it all up live, and that feeling is what creates the the aliveness of the music.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Like, can you speak to that?

音乐创作本身，那种身处边缘、挑战可能性的感觉，一切都有可能崩塌，正因如此，

Just the the creating in the music, the feeling like you're on the edge, like you're challenging the possibilities of what can happen, and all can go to shit, and because of that,

它才显得如此鲜活。

it feels alive.

嗯，当我采访过在迈尔斯六十年代五重奏中演奏的罗恩·卡特时，我问了罗恩，因为罗恩参与过很多唱片录制。

Well, when I interviewed Ron Carter that played in in Miles' sixties quintet, I asked Ron because Ron did records.

他在两千两百张著名唱片中演奏了贝斯。

He played bass on two 2,200 recording famous records.

然后我问，你们和迈尔斯一起排练过吗？

And I said, did you guys ever rehearse with Miles?

没有。

No.

从不。

Never.

我说，那你们会怎么做？

I said, so what what would you do?

他说，我们直接去录音室，他会把谱子准备好，放在谱架上，然后我们就直接开始演奏。

He goes, we'd just show up at the studio, and he'd have the charts, put them on the stand, and and we would we'd just roll.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.