#493 – 杰夫·卡普兰：魔兽世界、守望先锋、暴雪与游戏的未来

我从纽约搬走了。

I I had moved from New York.

我做了件特别蠢的事，当时我就知道自己在这么做。

I did the most terrible dumb thing that I knew I was doing at the time.

我在纽约读研究生时有一群特别棒的作家朋友。

I had a really great group of writer friends from grad school in New York.

我觉得写作是非常孤独的事，但奇怪的是，作家们往往会互相支持，那你该把故事给谁看呢？

And I think writing's a very lonely solitary thing, but weirdly, writers kinda support each other and just who do you give the story to?

你知道，你不想给爸妈看。

You know, you don't wanna give it to your mom or dad.

对吧？

You know?

你更想给那些会直接给你一拳，告诉你哪里有问题的人看。

You kinda wanna give it to somebody who's gonna really punch you in the nose and tell you what's wrong with it.

我离开了那个写作圈，搬回了加利福尼亚。

And I had left that writing circle to move back to California.

你是不是吃了很多药，带着打字机横穿美国，然后写了一本书？以凯鲁亚克为例吧？

Did you take a bunch of drugs, take your typewriter, and drove across across The United States, and then wrote a book about it, or just to take Kerouacs as an example?

总之，不好意思。

Anyway, sorry.

你回去了

You went

如果我那样做了，可能会更成功。

I might have been more successful had I done that.

真的很抱歉。

So sorry.

所以你回去了？

So you went back?

于是我搬回了加利福尼亚，是为了一个女孩。

So I moved back to California, and I did it for a girl.

我觉得搬回去不到两个月，我们就分手了。

And I think within two months of moving back, we were broken up.

所以，当我站在纽约空荡荡的公寓里，准备关上门的那一刻，我就知道了。

So and I knew it when I was standing in my studio apartment when it was empty in New York and I was about to close the door for the

最后

last

一次。

time.

我当时心里有个小声音在说：老兄，你这是在干什么？

I had that, like, you know, little me on the shoulder saying, dude, what are you doing?

你正在犯一个会回头折磨你的重大人生错误。

This you're making one of those epic life mistakes that is gonna come back to haunt you.

后来我独自一人回到了加州，我想在接下来的三年里，我每天都安排八小时写作，因为这就是作家的习惯。

And I ended up alone in California, and I think it was a good three years that I structured my life where I was gonna write for eight hours a day because it's that writer's habit.

你必须强迫自己。

Like, you have to just force yourself.

这是一份工作。

This is a job.

这可不是爱好。

This isn't a hobby.

不管我喜不喜欢，不管刮风下雨，不管生病还是健康，我每天都要写八个小时。

Whether I like it or not, rain or shine, sick or healthy, I'm gonna write for eight hours a day.

我真的做到了。

And I did.

我很幸运。

I was fortunate.

正如我所说，我爸爸有自己的公司，他聘我当研究助理。

Like I said, my dad had his company, and he hired me as a research associate.

所以我当时在为一家招聘公司打电话，生成一些无名氏的名单。

So I was calling up generating nameless for a recruiting company.

每当有东海岸的外派任务时，我都会接下，这样我就能从早上五点开始工作。

And I would take whenever there was East Coast assignments, I would take those so I could start at, like, five in the morning.

我为自己腾出了大量时间来写作。

And I created all this space for me to write.

我养了一只叫杰克的狗

And I just I had a dog named Jack

嗯

Mhmm.

它是一只杰克罗素梗

Who's he was Jack Russell Terrier.

所以大家都说，你是个作家

And so everybody's like, you're a writer.

你居然给它取名叫杰克·罗素梗杰克

You named her Jack Russell Terrier Jack.

我解释说，我是以杰克·凯鲁亚克的名字给它命名的

I'm like, because I named him after Jack Kerouac.

这很有诗意，也很壮丽

It's poetic and epic.

是的

Yeah.

我只是看起来像个傻瓜。

I just looked like a dumbass.

但那是

But it

就我和这只狗。

was just me and this dog.

我当时一直在 intensely 地写作，那是九十年代中期到晚期。

And I was writing, you know, all that time intensely, and this was mid to late nineties.

所以即使互联网已经存在，电子邮件也非常原始，你必须把文稿打印出来寄出去。

So even though Internet existed, email was very primitive, and you had to send a manuscript off, like printed paper

Mhmm。

Mhmm.

我试图把短篇小说投稿给文学杂志，就得寄信，还要附上贴好邮票的回邮信封。

To all like, I was trying to get short stories published in literary magazines, and you had to send envelope with return self addressed stamp.

所以这也花了不少钱。

So it was expensive too.

比如，如果你没钱，每寄一次投稿都要花钱。

Like, if you didn't have money, you were just there was a cost to it, to every single one of them.

你得为最终收到的拒稿信付钱。

You had to pay for the rejection letter that you would eventually receive.

是的。

Yeah.

而你最期待的是，编辑会在拒稿信里给你写几句话，比如

And the, like, big thing that you were hoping for was that the editor would write you a note with the rejection letter, like

继续坚持。

Keep keep going.

是的。

Yeah.

你会紧紧抓住这些话不放。

And you'd, like, cling onto this.

比如，《Glimmer Train》说你很有潜力，你就靠着这句话撑了一周，假装那是种鼓励，但实际上这简直摧残人心，但我真的坚持下来了。

Like, it was, like, oh, Glimmer Train said, you know, showing promise, you know, and you just hang onto that for, like, a week, you know, pretending like that was but it was just soul crushing, and I really stuck.

我变得越来越孤立。

And I became more and more isolated.

这部分原因是我离开了纽约的那群写作朋友。

Part of that was leaving that group of writing friends in New York.

我本来就容易内向，这就是我的性格。

I'm prone to just introversion anyway, the type of person I am.

和当时的女友分手后，我就陷入了只顾写作的世界。

Breaking up with the girlfriend at the time, I just sort of fell into that world of, like, all I was doing was writing.

这彻底击垮了我。

And it it broke me.

我陷入了非常深重的抑郁。

Like, I I went into very deep and heavy depression.

我喝酒喝得太多了。

I drank too much.

我确实有酒精问题，所有这些因素叠加在一起，导致了极度的抑郁。

I really had a problem with alcohol, And all of those things compounded into just deep, deep depression.

而且并不是有什么神奇的拒稿让我崩溃。

And I don't there wasn't, like, a magic rejection that broke me.

如果真有那么一个人，比如‘我就是那个让杰夫崩溃的人’，那倒挺史诗的。

That would have been epic if like someone out there is like the who I'm the dude who broke Jeff that one day.

但我只是在某个时刻意识到，这会毁了我。

But I just had a moment where I said, this is gonna destroy me.

我不想打击任何人，因为我真的相信，你经常听到这样的话：你必须为梦想努力，永不放弃。

And and, like, I don't wanna be discouraging to anybody because I really do believe, like, you hear it so much, like, you have to work for your dreams, never give up.

我们就是被这样教育的。

Like, we're trained this way.

永不放弃。

Like, never give up.

也许并不是宇宙。

The universe actually, maybe not the universe.

美国各地的文学杂志编辑们一致告诉我，是时候放弃写作了。

A group of editors at literary magazines across The United States was telling me it was time to give up as a writer.

我只是不适合做这个，所以就放弃了。

Like, I wasn't cut out for it, and I stopped.

有时候，你知道，关上一扇门是为了让另一扇门打开。

Sometimes, you know, closing a door is required for another door to open.

最难做的事情之一就是转身离开。

That's one of the hardest things to do is to walk away.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们的父母、教练和导师确实教导我们不要放弃。

And I think rightly so, our parents, our coaches, our mentors train us not to give up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且我认为，很多人为此感到自豪：我永远不会放弃。

And I think a lot of us take pride in that I'm never gonna give up.

不管发生什么，我都要坚持到底。

I'm gonna do this, come hell or high water.

有时候，尤其是当你快二十多岁的时候，你会突然意识到：我真的会一直这样下去吗？

And sometimes there's that reality, especially when you're now in your mid twenties where you have that moment of, like, am I really gonna be this?

我真的能找到出路吗？

Like, am I ever gonna sort of find the light here?

也许吧，这真的很难。

And maybe, and it's so hard.

要经历这样的时刻，真的太难了。

It's so hard to have this moment.

也许这根本不是我人生的使命，尤其是当你还不知道下一个使命会是什么的时候。

Maybe this isn't my calling in life, especially when you don't know what the next calling is gonna be.

天啊，这太痛苦了。

God, it's so painful.

因为你投入了太多关于自己、自己的梦想，以及对自我的全部构想，而你却眼睁睁看着自己逐渐孤立，痛苦加剧，然后你必须想办法从这种状态中走出来。

It's because you've invested so much of yourself, of who you are, of the dreams you've had, of this this whole conception of yourself, and you're watching yourself slide down in terms of becoming isolated, suffering more and more, and then you just have to somehow figure out how to get out of that.

确实如此。

And it is true.

在这种情况下，摆脱困境的方法就是彻底放手。

In that situation, the way to get out is is the dumpster.

是的。

Yeah.

就是要切断联系。

It's to cut it off.

你能从中学到什么建议吗？

Is there advice you can extract from that?

有很多年轻人正处在同样的境况中。

There's a lot of young folks who are in that same situation.

对。

Yeah.

这是一类事后才明白的事情，你知道，当你经历过并最终挺过来了，但当时你并不知道。

I this is one of those hindsight things where, you know, having gone through it and ended up okay on the other side, which you don't know at the time.

当你在十几岁末或二十岁出头的时候，你承受着巨大的压力。

You know, when you're a young person in your late teens or early twenties, there's so much pressure on you.

我真的觉得成年人并没有提供帮助。

And I I really think adults don't help.

每次你遇到年轻的侄子或者其他年轻人，就开始问：你主修什么？

You know, every time you run into the younger nephew or whoever and you start to say things like, oh, what's your major?

你打算怎么用它？

What are you gonna do with that?

你想要成为什么样的人？

What do you wanna be?

对一个人这样问实在太荒谬了。

It's such bullshit to do to a human being.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

你在世界上迷失了方向。

You're so lost in the world.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我们大多数人一生都在迷茫，尤其是在二十多岁时，你简直就是迷失了。

most of us are lost our entire lives, but especially in your twenties, you're like, you're lost.

所以像这样的问题，是的，你是做什么的？

So questions like, yeah, what are you?

你在做什么？

What are you doing?

你学什么专业？

What's your major?

你的职业是什么？

What's the career?

诸如此类的问题。

And so on.

这根本不是重点，伙计。

That's not the point, man.

我正在努力寻找，我试图在世界上前行。

I'm try I'm trying to find I'm trying to to to move through the world.

我试图在世界上奔跑，去寻找能点燃我内心的事物，去发现激情，去找到我来到这个世上的意义。

I'm trying to run through the world to find the thing that sparks my heart, to find the passion, to find what I'm meant to be on this earth for.

这确实，我的意思是，年轻人的这种探索是一段真正的英雄之旅。

And they're really I mean, that is a real hero's journey of searching as a young person.

这确实是一段，你知道的，所有带着智慧的成年人都常常停止了探索。

That's a real, like, you know, all the adults with their wisdom, they've stopped searching often.

他们做了那种懒惰的、安逸的事。

They've they've done the lazy, the comfortable thing.

他们找到了自己的方向。

They found their thing.

所以现在他们回望过去。

And so now they look back.

他们不记得年轻人必须面对多少痛苦和多少不确定性。

They don't remember how much suffering and how how much uncertainty that young people have to deal with.

这很混乱。

It's there's confusion.

这很有压力。

There's pressure.

我们对年轻人要求他们必须想清楚，这种压力简直疯狂。

Like, the the pressure we exert on younger people for having it figured out is it's insane.

所以我一直给的建议是，听起来可能很傻，也很老生常谈，但要关注你想做什么，而不是你想成为什么。

So the advice that I always give, and it sounds so stupid, like, this sounds really trite, but focus on what you wanna do, not what you wanna be.

社会施加给我们的压力是，哦，你想当宇航员吗？

The the pressure that society kinda puts on us is, you know, oh, you wanna be an astronaut?

你想当消防员吗？

Do you wanna be a firefighter?

你想当作家吗？

Do you wanna be a writer?

你想当游戏设计师吗？

Do you wanna be a game maker?

我认为我们迷失在了对这种角色的幻想及其表现方式的外在形式中，仿佛在扮演一个虚假的角色，而当下班后、没人问你问题时，情况就完全不同了。

And I think we get lost in the trappings of, like, a vision of what that role is and how to perform as a fake actor in that role versus when you're off the clock and no one's asking you any questions.

你知道，你不会在感恩节晚餐上，被叔叔逼着回答你余生的未来会是什么样子。

You know, you're not at Thanksgiving dinner and your uncle's pressuring you into, you know, what your future's gonna be for the rest of your life.

当你回家时，你是怎么度过你的时间的？

When you go home, how do you spend your time?

是什么让你感到快乐？

Like, what makes you happy?

什么能带给你满足感？

What brings you fulfillment?

通过这些路径，你会发现自己最终会成为什么样的人，而不是你想要成为什么样的人。

And through those paths, you're gonna find out what you're gonna become, not what you wanna be.

关键是，你想要做什么？

It's what do you wanna do?

你想要做什么？

What do you wanna do?

让你在每一刻都感到快乐的事情。

The thing that brings you joy on a moment by moment basis.

是的。

Yeah.

这话说得太棒了。

That's brilliant put.

说到这个，那就是你转折的地方。

And speaking of which, that's where you took the pivot.

你转行做了电子游戏。

You switched to video games.

这是怎么发生的？

How did that happen?

是逐渐的，还是突然的？

Gradually, suddenly?

既是逐渐的，也是突然的。

Gradually and suddenly.

所以当我经历了那个彻底放弃写作的时刻时，我曾经每天安排八小时专门用于写作。

So when I had that faithful moment where I just sort of gave up with writing, I had these days where I'd structured eight hour chunks of just this was writing time.

你知道，我独自一人坐着打字。

You know, I sit solitary typing.

所有这些都消失了。

All that was gone.

而且，你知道，我仍然能养活自己，这很不错。

And, you know, I could still support myself, which was nice.

然后我有了空闲时间，却没有人和我一起度过。

And then I had this free time, and I wasn't spending it with anybody.

我独自一人，只有我和我的狗杰克。

I was just alone, me and the dog, Jack.

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是我全身心地投入到了《无尽的任务》中。

And I just poured it all into EverQuest.

是的

Yeah.

你知道吗，那款游戏是1999年推出的，我当时有个朋友，维克托，算是 lifelong 的朋友。

You know, I I it was 1999 when that game came out, and I had a friend, Victor, like, kind of a lifelong friend.

他是我为数不多的玩电脑游戏的朋友之一，因为那时候玩电脑游戏是有污名的。

One of one of the few friends I had who played computer games because there was a stigma to that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，你不会到处跟人说你在玩游戏。

You know, it wasn't you didn't walk around telling people you played games.

他们觉得你是在浪费时间。

They thought you waste your time.

我的朋友维克买了《无尽的任务》。

And my friend, Vic, had bought EverQuest.

我说，那不是那个叫布莱恩·胡克去参与开发的游戏吗？

I'm like, that's that game that that guy Brian Hook went to work on.

好玩吗？

Is it good?

他跟我说，是的。

And he's like, yeah.

你必须玩一玩。

You gotta play it.

我一登录，就被带入了那个世界。

And the moment I logged in, I was just transported.

那是诺拉斯的世界，不仅仅是这个世界本身和它的外观。

It was the world of Norrath, and it wasn't just the world itself and how it looked.

我觉得这个游戏美极了。

I thought the game was gorgeous.

还有它的机制，你知道的，我扮演了一个半身人游荡者，必须外出在世界中冒险。

It was the mechanics, you know, that I I was this halfling rogue that, you know, had to go out and adventure in the world.

当我击杀敌人时，会获得经验值，而为了击杀更强的敌人，我需要更好的装备，从而获得更多的经验，这种游戏中的成长吸引力。

And when I killed stuff, I got experience, and I needed better loot to kill more stuff, to get more experience, and the sort of draw of progression in the game.

这太棒了。

It was amazing.

我每天都盼着下一次登录游戏。

I and I just lived my life of I can't wait till the next time I log in.

当时有很多逃避现实的成分。

There was a lot of escapism going.

但这并不全都是健康的。

It wasn't all healthy.

最终，当我三天后决定退出《无尽的任务》时，你可以输入命令/slash played来查看你的总游戏时间。

When all was said and done, when I finally had quit EverQuest three days later, you could type in the command slash played to see how much played time you had.

我记得我当时在三年里玩了大约272天。

I had I think it was, like, 272 played days in three years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是你开始算算，到底花了多少时间，嗯。

So you start to do the math on, like, how much time Mhmm.

在那三年里，我生活在那个世界中。

In those three years I was living in that world.

那简直有点疯狂。

It was it was kind of insane.

那超过了六千个小时。

Well, that's over six thousand hours.

是的。

Yeah.

游戏时间。

Of gameplay.

对。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

所以，现在我们来看看Perplexity，EverQuest是一款长期运行的3D奇幻大型多人在线角色扮演游戏（MMORPG），设定在你所说的诺拉特世界。

So here, going to Perplexity, EverQuest is a long running three d fantasy massively multiplayer online role playing game, MMORPG, set in the world of Norrath, as you were saying.

于1999年3月首次发布。

First released in March 1999.

这是一款在线角色扮演游戏，成千上万的玩家创建角色，组队探索一个持久共享的世界。

It is an online role playing game where thousands of players create characters, group up, and explore persistent shared world.

它被广泛认为是奠定MMORPG基础的游戏之一，推动了团队副本内容、公会系统和三维在线世界的形成。

It is widely regarded as one of the foundational MMORPGs, helping to find raid content, guilded systems, and three d online worlds.

这是它的另一个组成部分。

That's the other component of it.

所有玩家都是人类，他们会组队。

There's it's all humans, and they group up.

是的。

Yeah.

他们会在游戏中一起进行团队副本。

And they raid together in the game.

没错。

Yep.

在《无尽的任务》中，团队副本通常是指三十人或更多玩家聚集在一起，共同征服那些单打独斗无法击败的敌人。

In the context of EverQuest, raiding is usually around 30 people or more getting together to conquer something that you couldn't beat otherwise.

要成功进行团队副本，你通常需要加入《无尽的任务》中所有人都称之为‘超级公会’的组织。

And to do successful raiding, you usually need to join what in EverQuest, everyone referred to as an Uber Guild.

因此，我对自己的《无尽的任务》旅程感到非常自豪，因为在大部分升级过程中，我都没有加入公会，或者只在一个全是盗贼的角色扮演公会里。

So I had this great pride in my EverQuest journey that I, most of the time leveling up, I was ungilded or I was in like a role playing guild with rogues only.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当我升到50级时，《无尽的任务》的最高等级就是50级。

And it was when I got to level 50 and EverQuest was the the top level.

我受邀加入了名为‘钢铁传承’的公会，这在我们的服务器上是最顶尖的公会。

I got invited into this guild called Legacy of Steel, which on our server was the top.

每个服务器都有一个顶级公会。

Every server had a top guild.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时在一个叫无名服务器的服务器上，顶级公会是钢铁传承。

And I was on a server called The Nameless Server, and the top guild was Legacy of Steel.

最让人兴奋的是，召集30个人一起去挑战纳加坦——那只火龙，或者沃克斯——那只冰龙，需要完美的配合才能成功。

And that the thrill of getting 30 people together to go see if you could beat, you know, Nagathan, who was the fire dragon, or Vox, who was the frost dragon, and needing perfect coordination to pull it off.

那种乐趣简直疯狂，你一个人在家的房间里，会真的大喊出来。

It was insane how fun like, you would literally scream out, you're alone in your room at home

是的。

Mhmm.

但你感觉你和这些人真的在一起，赢的时候会大声欢呼，输的时候会感到沮丧，这游戏有极致的高潮和低谷，它把一切都做对了。

But you felt like you were there with these people and you would audibly cheer out when you when you won, and you'd feel depressed when you lost, and it was a game of high highs and low lows, and it it it did everything right.

这太棒了。

It was amazing.

从一个自豪的独行侠变成一个顶级公会的成员，对你来说是个巨大的转变。

So that was a big leap for you to go from the proud lone warrior to a member of a guild, Uber Guild.

然后你还有那个史诗般的故事，从底层一路崛起，最终成为那个公会的领袖。

And then there's that epic story of you rising to the top to become the leader of the Yeah.

太棒了

Super

在像《无尽的任务》这样的在线游戏中组织人就像赶猫一样，因为每个人都有自己的想法。

So organizing organizing people in an online game like EverQuest is like herding cats because, you know, everyone has their own will.

有些人是为了战利品而行动。

Some people are loot motivated.

有些人希望公会能成功。

Some people want the guild to do well.

有些人只是感到孤独，想找人一起玩。

Some people are just lonely and want people to hang out with.

在《无尽的任务》社区中，抑郁情绪也很普遍。

And there was also a lot of depression in the EverQuest community.

这是我亲身经历过的。

It was something I suffered with.

但很多人，当你感到难过或低落时，都会寻找逃避的方式。

But a lot of people, you know, anytime you're feeling sad or down, you're looking for escape.

电子游戏带给我们的一大好处就是逃避现实。

And one of the great things video games brings us is escapism.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

逃避现实并不总是坏事或消极的。

And escapism isn't always bad or negative.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但当你滥用它来逃避现实生活中的问题时，它就变得负面了。

But when you sort of abuse it to escape your real life problems, it's bad and negative.

所以，这种痛苦和黑暗的交织，构成了这个社区的一部分。

So there's a mix of pain and and darkness that pain can manifest as all part of this community.

是的。

Yeah.

奇怪的是，你会陷入一种循环：与他人在一起能带来情谊和解脱，让你觉得生活没那么糟，但你很快又会陷入另一种循环——开始远离现实生活，这让你感觉更糟，以至于你只能从游戏中获得短暂的慰藉。

And what's weird is you enter the cycle where being with other people gives you camaraderie and relief and makes you feel like you're not doing so bad in life, but you can quickly enter a cycle of but then you're withdrawing from life, and it makes you feel that way more to where you can only get the fix from the game at that that point.

所以从心理层面来看，那里发生了许多事情。

So it's psychologically, there's a lot going on there.

因此你必须应对这一切。

And so you had to work with all of that.

你需要召集一群人一起完成团队副本，而每个人都在经历着各自复杂的心理历程。

You have to get a bunch of people together to do a raid who are all human beings going through complicated psychological journeys of their own.

有些人满嘴抱怨。

Some are talking shit.

有些人只是安静地、孤独地，只想找点装备。

Some are just quietly, lonely, just looking for some loot.

在九十年代末，人人都在抱怨。

In the late nineties, everyone was talking shit.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

那时候的游戏文化完全是另一回事，但那确实是一个很棒的群体。

Like, the gaming culture was just a different thing back then, But it was it was a great group.

那真是太有趣了。

It was super fun.

来自各行各业的人。

It was people from all walks of life.

要协调这些人，你简直得把每件事重复两百遍。

And to coordinate these people, like, you just had to repeat everything, like, 200 times.

好吧。

Like, okay.

我们要从北街传送。

We're gonna we're gonna port from North Row.

所有人都到北街去，然后你得这么反复说上六个小时。

Everybody get to North Row, and then you'd have to repeat that for, like, six hours

嗯。

Mhmm.

才能有那么一丁点机会，让20%的人出现在北街。

To have any chance of, like, 20% of the people showing up in North Row.

一开始，我有点儿加入了公会。

And I sort of, like at first, I joined the guild.

我只是个充满好奇、热情洋溢的新手。

I was just, like, the bright eyed bushy tail.

我是公会里少数几个潜行者之一。

Like, I was, like, one of the few rogues in the guild.

我只是想帮上忙。

I just wanted to be helpful.

我非常钦佩那些管理公会的人。

I really admired the people running the guild.

我们有个很棒的公会领袖，那真是一段非常愉快的经历。

Like, we had a great guild leader, and it was just a a really fun experience.

有一天，公会领袖突然消失了。

And, you know, the guild leader one day just disappeared.

他辞职了，因为他自己正在经历一些事情。

Like, he quit, and he was going through, you know, his own thing.

这就是《无尽的任务》里会发生的事。

And that's what would happen in EverQuest.

就像人们会突然间就消失了。

Like, people would just kinda disappear all of a sudden.

那时候没有谁会说：

There wasn't a, hey.

大概一个月后，我就要不玩了，因为我马上要开始一份新工作。

In about a month, I'm gonna stop playing because I'm starting this new job.

人们退出时总得搞点戏剧性的场面，直接消失，而公会领袖就这样不再玩了。

People people had to quit in some dramatic way where they just disappear, and basically, guild leader stopped playing.

他们消失的时候，你会想念他们吗？

Did you miss them when they disappeared?

我们应该说，大多数人——也许全部都是匿名的，你只知道他们的用户名，根本不知道他们在现实生活中是谁？

Like, we we should say that most of the people, maybe all of them were anonymous, so you just have a username and you don't really say who you are in real life?

当然。

Absolutely.

那时候，提及任何现实生活中的信息都会受到很大的偏见。

In those days, there was a great stigma to mentioning your any real life info.

你只是把一切都藏得很深，根本不知道对方是男是女。

You just kind of kept it all really close to your chest, and you never knew who was male or female.

是的。

Yeah.

你基本上会默认所有人都是男性。

You kind of assumed everybody was male.

合理的假设。

Safe assumptions.

如果对方其实是女性，那会让人很惊讶。

And then it was a surprise if they were actually female.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如我妻子，我就是这么认识她的。

Like my wife, for example, that's how I met her.

你是在《无尽的任务》里认识她的？

You met her in EverQuest?

我是在《无尽的任务》里认识她的。

I met her in EverQuest.

这真是一个真实感人的爱情故事。

That is a true love story right there.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

对我来说，《无尽的任务》有趣的地方在于，你玩一款游戏玩到我这种程度，别人就会说你浪费了好几年生命。

The the funny part for me with EverQuest is, you know, you play a game as much as I played EverQuest, and people are like, you threw years of your life away.

像这种游戏，你是赢不了的。

Like, you can't win a game like that.

但我也不确定。

And I'm like, I don't know.

就像今天坐在这里，我的整个职业生涯和家庭都要感谢《无尽的任务》，所以我觉得我赢了这场游戏。

Like, sitting here today, my whole career and my family are thanks to EverQuest, so I think I won the game.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你简直就是个真正的好人。

You're like the the well actually guy.

嗯。

Well

对，没错。

Well, yeah.

生活，它将会继续下去

Life, it will be on

somewhere 的维基百科页面上可能会写着：看，这就是一个例子，某人确实如此。

a Wikipedia page somewhere that says, well, here's an example of somebody Yeah.

为什么电子游戏很棒。

Why video games are awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，有些地方我应该顺便提一下。

I mean, some of the I I should mention this as an aside.

对我和我认识的许多人来说，没错，确实花了数百小时，但回过头看，那些是我生命中最快乐的时光和日子，一切都值得了。

For me and many people I know, yes, it's hundreds of hours, but some of the happiest hours and days of my life, like, looking back, it all worked out.

当时你情绪很低落，会想：我到底在做什么？

During it, you are pretty low, and you think I what am I doing with my life?

诸如此类的想法。

All that kind of stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

但回过头看，那些通宵打游戏的时光，让自己完全沉浸其中，看着太阳升起——顺便说一句，对我而言，很多这样的游戏都是暴雪的游戏。

But, like, looking back, just all nighters you pull playing a particular video game, allowing yourself to really fully be immersed, seeing the sun come up on by the way, many of those games for me were Blizzard games.

电子游戏能做到这一点，真是令人惊叹。

It's an incredible thing that video games have been able to do.

我认为，过去是这样，现在某种程度上仍然是，书籍也能带来类似的感受。

I think, you know, it used to be and still somewhat the case that books do that kind of same thing.

它们能带你踏上一段旅程。

They they take you on a journey.

但长期以来，正如你所说，电子游戏一直背负着污名。

But video games for a long time, you're right, they had a stigma.

比如，我没法告诉别人。

Like, I couldn't tell people.

我感觉自己像在吸海洛因一样。

I felt like I was doing, like, heroin or something.

是的。

Yeah.

我总觉得我在做一件秘密而黑暗的事。

I felt like I was doing this secret dark thing.

通常它都是在黑暗中的。

It's usually in the it's usually is in the dark.

它有一种自然的秘密感，好像我在做些什么非常黑暗和见不得人的事。

There's just a secret of nature to it, like, I'm doing something really dark and shady.

它并不主流。

It wasn't mainstream.

它确实不主流。

It wasn't.

它不主流，只是当时对它有偏见。

It wasn't except there was a stigma to it.

而其中最奇怪的一点是，我记得你可以在《无尽的任务》里输入“/played”来查看游戏时长。

And one of the weirdest parts of that is, you know, I mentioned, like, you could type in the slash played in EverQuest.

但如果你对人们看多少电视也输入“/played”，那会是什么样子？

Well, if you did the slash played on how much TV people watch, what would that look like?

那数据会爆炸的，是的。

It would blow Yeah.

轻松超过六千小时。

Six thousand hours out of the water easily.

嗯，二十年前，它可能会，你知道的，但不是今天。

Well, it in twenty years ago, it would've, you know, not today.

现在是手机了。

Now it's the phone.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但要告别那个世界确实很难。

But then it is hard to say goodbye to that world.

是的。

Yeah.

那些也是很难熬的时光。

Those are also really painful times.

对你来说，说再见有多难？

How hard is it to say goodbye for you?

对《无尽的任务》吗？

To EverQuest?

真的很难。

It was really hard.

有时候你试图放弃。

And there were times where you try to quit.

哦，你有时候会休息一下？

Oh, you took a break sometimes?

是的。

Yeah.

你以为自己会永远退出了。

You think you're quitting for good.

你会有那样的时刻，觉得自己玩得太多了。

You'd have those moments of, like, I'm I'm doing this too much.

我需要在人生中向前看。

I need to move on in life.

我要放下它，转身离开，希望再也不回来。

I'm gonna put it down and walk away and hopefully not come back.

但确实也有过一些时候你又回来了。

And there were times where you did come back.

当我最终离开《无尽的任务》时，实际上非常轻松，因为那时我在心理上已经对这个游戏彻底厌倦了。

When I finally did leave EverQuest, it was actually extremely easy because I was psychologically done with the game at the time.

那并不是在新资料片刚推出不久之后，但也不算太久。

It was not shortly, but not too long after a new expansion had come out.

当时的新资料片是《幸运之地的阴影》。嗯。

At the time, it was Shadows of Luckland Mhmm.

但这个资料片不像之前的那些一样吸引我。

Which didn't speak to me like the expansions before.

比如上一个资料片叫《维利奥斯的贫瘠》，那是一个非常棒的资料片。

Like, the one before that was called Scarce of Velios, which was an amazing expansion.

我当时在暴雪找到了工作。

And I had gotten the job at Blizzard.

我想我本来就是个特别执着的人。

And I I guess I'm just an obsessive person.

所以我之前投入在《无尽的任务》上的所有时间和精力，一到暴雪上班的第一分钟，就全都转移到了新的目标上。

So all the time and energy that I had put into EverQuest, the second, you know, the second my first minute started at Blizzard, that was my new obsession.

说到这个，你得讲讲你是怎么拿到暴雪工作的传奇故事。

So speaking of which, you have to tell the epic origin story of how you got the job of Blizzard.

正如我们所说，你曾经是《无尽的任务》里传奇的玩家，也是传奇的喷子。

As we said, you were this legendary gamer and now legendary troll on EverQuest.

你的游戏ID是ToGo。

Username to go.

你经常给开发团队提供尖锐的反馈，发表了那些如今广为人知的‘白银怒斥’。

You gave a lot of edgy feedback to the devs, telling them in, now famous their silver rants.

其中有一个著名的例子，你告诉他们做一堆事，包括把脑袋从屁股里拔出来。

This is a famous one where you tell many of them to do a bunch of things, including to pull their heads out of their asses.

你之所以被喜爱和尊重，是因为你提出了许多具体的建议，帮助改进游戏，这一点非常重要。

You're loved and respected because you gave a lot of specific ways that the game could be improved, and that's an important thing to say.

你并不是在无端抱怨。

You weren't just talking shit.

你真的非常热爱并关心这款游戏，并且用当时流行的语言，给出了如何改进游戏的建议。

You actually really loved and cared for the game, and you gave them, in the language of the time, advice on how to improve their game.

这很有趣，因为当你回看那些留言时，对我来说是一种激励。

And it's funny because, like, you look back to those messages, it's inspiring to me.

这本应让很多人感到既有信息量又受鼓舞，因为你确实是在认真地、全身心地提出建设性批评。

It should be informative and inspiring to a lot of people because you're really legit full time talking shit.

而如今，你一直都是整个游戏行业中最善良、最受爱戴的人之一。

And now, and always have been, like, one of the kindest, most loved human beings in the entire gaming industry.

总之，这又是如何让你获得暴雪的工作机会的呢？

Anyway, how did that lead to you getting a job at Blizzard?

所以当第一个公会领袖、也就是Legacy of Steel的创始人离开时，他是个叫Dread的人，这是他的网名。

So when the first guild leader left Legacy of Steel, the founder, he he was a guy named his online name was Dread.

那就是他的名字。

That was his name.

他离开了。

He left.

我们的公会随后陷入了一段无所适从的时期。

And our guild was kind of in this listless spin for a while.

最终，有人挺身而出接替了公会领袖的位置，这个人叫Ariel。

And eventually, somebody stepped up and took his position as guild leader, and that person's name was Ariel

嗯。

Mhmm.

她是个金发的木精灵战士女性，总是拒绝戴头盔，因为她觉得自己的角色太漂亮了，想一直展示她的脸。

Who was this blonde wood elf warrior female who always refused to wear a helmet because thought their character was so pretty, wanted to show their face all the time.

Ariel是我们非常棒的公会领袖，她让我担任了副公会领袖、团队队长和元老之类的职务。

So Ariel was a great guild leader for us and made me like a assistant guild leader, raid leader, officer type in the guild.

随着时间推移，Ariel变得越来越忙，经常给我发消息，比如：嘿。

And over time, Ariel got busier and busier and, you know, would send me messages like, hey.

我明天不会上线，或者今晚也不会上线。

I'm not gonna be online, you know, tomorrow, or I'm not gonna be online tonight.

你能带队打副本吗？

Can you run the raid?

你能带队打副本吗？

Can you run the raid?

带队打副本对我来说非常自然。

And running the raids was very natural for me.

这是我人生中第一次体验领导力，比如如何激励他人？

And it was my first experience with leadership in my life of, like, how do you motivate people?

激励到底是什么样子的？

Like, what does motivation look like?

纪律又是什么样子的？

What does discipline look like?

你该如何鼓舞人们？

How do you inspire people?

你什么时候该强迫别人，什么时候该鼓励他们？

When do you force people versus encourage them?

你知道的。

You know?

所以这对我来说是一次即兴的学习经历，好在真正的公会领袖最终会上线。

So it was a learning experience for me on the fly, and I had the safety net of the real guild leader would log in eventually.

我应该提一下，我最近正在研究拜占庭帝国的查士丁尼，他从一个平民成长为皇帝。

I should mention, I'm just now reading about doing a bunch of research on Justinian of the Roman Empire, and he rose from being a peasant to being emperor.

所以我看到你的成长历程和他从平民到皇帝的经历有很多相似之处，不过你继续说吧。

So I see a lot of parallels in in your life journey from peasant to emperor, but go ahead.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

至少是《无尽的任务》公会领袖。

At least EverQuest guild leader.

那已经是无名服务器上最顶尖的公会领袖了。

That's that's as much Uber as can guild leader, best guild on the nameless server.

随着时间推移，Ariel变得越来越忙。

So as time went on, Ariel became busier and busier.

然后有一天，他们联系了我，我们之间悄悄地来回交流。

And then one day, they contacted me, and we were having this, like, whisper back and forth.

他们说，你得接手公会了。

And they said, you you're gonna have to take over the guild.

我实在太忙了。

I'm just too busy.

后来才得知，让我先退一步说。

And then it came out later well, let me back up a second.

我开始瞎玩起来。

I started fooling around.

大约在这个时候，《半条命1》发布了。

Like, around this time, Half Life one had come out.

当时，无论是《毁灭公爵》还是《半条命1》，这些公司了不起的一点是，他们发布游戏时，会把编辑器一并放在光盘里。

And with both Duke Nukem and Half Life one, one of the incredible things that those companies did back in the day was when they shipped the game, they shipped the editor on the CD.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你足够好奇，就可以启动那个编辑器，随便玩玩。

And if you were curious enough, you could, like, fire up that editor and fool around with it.

所以我做了一个《毁灭公爵》的关卡，然后把它寄给那些英国的编程杂志，你知道，当你的关卡出现在某本随机杂志上时，你会很兴奋。

So I made a Duke Nukem level, and you'd send it off to, like, those UK programming magazines, and, you know, you get excited because your level was in, you know, some random magazine.

然后我开始制作《半条命》的关卡。

And then I started making, like, half life levels.

Ariel已经辞去了公会领导的职位。

And Ariel had stepped down as guild leader.

我已经成为了公会领导。

I had become guild leader.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

然后有一天，Ariel联系我，说：嘿，你之前不是提到过你做的那些《半条命》关卡吗？

And then at one point, Ariel contacts me and says, hey, you know, you were talking about those Half Life levels you made.

我想看看那些。

I wanna see those.

我当时想，哦，这挺酷的。

I'm like, oh, that's cool.

我都不知道你玩过《半条命》。

Like, I didn't know you played Half Life.

是的，也许我们可以搭个服务器，我来玩一下。

Like, yeah, maybe we can get a server up and I can play them.

然后Ariel告诉我，不行。

And Ariel tells me, no.

把它们寄到尔湾这个地址。

Mail them to this address in Irvine.

因为，再回溯一下时间，当时通过互联网发送一个《半条命》关卡可能要花十二个小时。

And because, again, to rewind in the time machine for a second, to send something like a Half Life level over the Internet would have taken like twelve hours.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你实际上是把它刻到CD上，然后寄出去了。

So you actually, like, burned it onto a CD and stuck it in the mail.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以我把我的半条命关卡寄了出去。

So I put my half life levels.

我发给了Ariel，他说，你知道吗，我叫Rob。

I send them to Ariel, and he says, you know, my name's Rob.

我是暴雪娱乐的设计师。

I'm a designer at Blizzard Entertainment.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

我记得你提到过你在帕萨迪纳，是吧？

Were I I hear you're in Pasadena because you mentioned it.

你知道的，我会在我们的网站上写一些关于玫瑰游行和这些事情的内容。

You know, I would write about, you know, the Rose Parade and all these things on our website.

你知道吗，那其实算是博客出现之前的博客了。

You know, I kind of it was blogging before blogging existed.

所以他知道我住在帕萨迪纳。

So he knew I lived in Pasadena.

他说，尔湾离这儿只有一个小时车程。

He's like, Irvine's only an hour away.

你为什么不下来一趟，来暴雪看看，顺便见见公会里的几个人，他提了四个名字。

Why don't you come down, see Blizzard, and you can also meet and he he names, like, four people in the guild.

我当时就说，他们也都在暴雪工作？

And I'm like, they all work at Blizzard too?

他说，是的。

He's like, yeah.

我们都是暴雪的人。

We're all Blizzard.

那段时间我手头很紧，所以这事特别奇怪。

And it was so weird because during that era, I didn't have a lot of money.

那时候不像现在，感觉每个人都在玩所有游戏，但你必须有所选择。

It was not like kinda nowadays, it feels like everybody plays every game, but you had to be selective.

所以我从来没买过《星际争霸》、《暗黑破坏神》或《魔兽争霸》。

So, like, I never bought Starcraft or Diablo or Warcraft.

那时候我更偏向玩《半条命》、《雷神之锤》和《雷神之锤III》。

I was much more of the Half Life, Quake, Quake three guy around that time.

我从来没玩过任何暴雪的游戏，却突然被邀请去暴雪娱乐公司。

And I never played a Blizzard game, and I just got invited to, like, go to Blizzard Entertainment.

当时暴雪已经声名显赫了吗？你知道的，有《魔兽》和《星际争霸》，它是不是正在建立起一个似乎从不失败的游戏公司的传奇形象？

Was Blizzard already legendary, You know, with the Warcraft and Starcraft, is it is there is was it building this, like, great legend of this game company that seemingly doesn't miss?

它当时正逐渐被确立为传奇游戏公司之一，深受玩家喜爱。

It was very much on its way to enshrining itself as being one of the legendary game like, it was beloved Mhmm.

由玩家群体所喜爱。

By gamers.

但当时还是像我这样无知的人，没玩过《魔兽II》、《暗黑破坏神II》或《星际争霸》，这让别人感到震惊。

But there were still ignorant people like me who hadn't played, you know, War two or Diablo two or Starcraft, which was shocking to people.

所以你当时没有特别激动吗？

So you weren't like freaking out freaking out?

没有。

No.

我确实很紧张，但原因不一样。

I I was freaking out in a different sense.

我在想，我去那儿会不会被抢劫？这是个骗局吗？

I'm like, am I gonna get mugged when I like, are is this a scam?

因为那时候你不会在网上见陌生人。

Because you didn't meet people off the Internet.

是的。

Yeah.

于是我开车去了那里。

So I drove down there.

我到了之后，遇到了罗布·帕尔多。

I ended up there was there was Rob Pardo

嗯。

Mhmm.

那时候他是《魔兽争霸三》的首席设计师，他叫阿里尔，你知道的。

Who at that time was the lead designer on Warcraft three, and he was Ariel, you know.

所以，好吧，根本不是女人。

So, okay, it wasn't a woman after all.

不是那个金发的木精灵。

It wasn't this blonde wood elf.

你知道，

You know,

到那时候，你还能指望什么呢？

I don't know what you expect at that point.

那就是罗布·帕尔多。

It was Rob Pardo.

直到今天，我一个叫斯科特·默瑟的好朋友，是我们《无尽的任务》公会里的附魔师，那人叫达洛曼。

To this day, a great friend of mine named Scott Mercer was the enchanter in our EverQuest guild, a guy named Daloman.

有个叫罗马·肯尼的家伙，是个特别疯狂的法师，也在我们公会里玩。

There was a guy named Roman Kenny who was like this totally psychotic wizard who played in our guild.

我和这些家伙一起吃过午饭，你知道的，我们就去尔湾的一家餐厅吃饭。

And I had lunch with these guys, you know, we just went out to Irvine to, like, a restaurant.

请原谅我用错了这个说法，但那简直就像是我的出柜时刻。

And, you know, forgive me for the misuse of the phrase, but it was like my coming out moment.

我们聊到了游戏所背负的污名，以及对自己是谁、喜欢什么感到羞耻的问题。

And we talked about games having that stigma and being embarrassed about who you are and what you like.

直到那时，我从不告诉任何人，嗯。

Like, up until that point, I would never tell Mhmm.

朋友、家人，都喜欢游戏。

Friends, family, like, love games.

我在玩一款叫《无尽的任务》的游戏。

I'm playing this game, EverQuest.

这游戏太棒了。

It's so cool.

我们刚杀了一条龙。

We just killed a dragon.

所以你一直隐藏着这部分的自我。

And so you were hiding this part of your identity.

我和这些人在尔湾吃午饭，聊着龙、剑、副本战术，还有吐槽公会里的所有人。

And I'm out to lunch with these guys in Irvine, and we're talking about dragons and swords and, you know, raid tactics and talking shit on all the people in the guild.

我突然有了一种前所未有的真实感，第一次觉得自己就是自己。

And I I literally had this moment where I felt like myself for the first time.

我感觉特别自在。

I just felt, like, so comfortable.

那是一个让我豁然开朗的时刻。

And that was an eye opening moment.

那次午饭之后，他又邀请我吃了几顿饭，我就想，哦，原来我在线上认识的这些人，真的成了朋友。

And after that after that lunch happened, he invited me for a couple more lunches down, you know, just I I just thought as like, oh, now I you know, I made friends with these people online.

现在我们现实中也认识了，而且他们恰好在这家游戏公司工作。

Now we know each other in real life, and they happen to work for this game company.

还有一次聚餐，他们邀请了一位名叫Barfa的兽人战士和我们一起吃饭。

And another one of the lunches, they invite this troll warrior to have lunch with us whose name in the game was Barfa, the troll warrior.

是的。

Mhmm.

Barfa并不是经常和我们一起玩的人，但有点像Ariel，是偶然加入公会的。

And Barfa Barfa wasn't somebody who played with us all the time, but kind of like Ariel got into the guild kind of on the side.

你知道的，就是那种内部邀请，比如‘Barf是谁啊？’

You know, it's one of those, like, inside invites of, like, who's Barf?

我不认识。

I don't know.

但Barf现在已经在公会里了。

But Barf is in the guild now.

那时候，有一个新副本叫‘洞穴’，我们之前从来没打过。

And there was at at the time, it was a new dungeon called the hole, and we had never done it before.

我们跳进了这个洞穴，开始打这个副本，结果像在《无尽的任务》里常发生的那样，一切都不顺利。

And we jumped down in this hole, and we're doing this whole dungeon, and everything goes wrong as it's prone to do in EverQuest.

整个公会都逃出来了，只有巴尔法没出来，因为他的巨魔角色体型太大，跳不出出口。

And the whole guild escapes except for Barfa, whose troll character's so big, he can't jump out of the exit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我那时有一瓶非常昂贵的传送药水，只有顶级公会的人才买得起。

And I had this potion that was like a really expensive potion that was a teleport potion that, you know, no one but someone in the Uber Guild could afford at the time.

我把药水递给巴尔法，说：拿着，用这个。

And I hand the potion to Barf and I said, here, use this.

它会把你传送出去，而我是个潜行者，可以自己隐身溜出地牢。

It'll teleport you out and I'm a rogue, I can just stealth and get out of the dungeon on my own.

所以我救了巴尔法，其实我根本不知道他是谁，还用了一瓶非常昂贵的药水。

So I saved Barfa not really knowing who Barfa was and I did it with a very expensive potion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

吃午饭时，罗布向我介绍了他。

Having lunch, Rob introduced me.

这位是艾伦·阿德汉。

This is Alan Adham.

他扮演巴尔法。

He plays Barfa.

是的。

Mhmm.

我当时想，哦，原来是巴尔法。

I'm like, oh, Barfa.

你们知道吗，那次你在地牢里救了我。

And we, you know, he has you saved me in the hole that time.

结果发现艾伦是暴雪的创始人，当时他几乎是所有事务的负责人。

Well, it turns out Alan was the founder of Blizzard, and he was the head he was sort of the head of everything at that time.

当时是艾伦、迈克、迈克·莫海姆和弗兰克·皮尔斯。

It was Alan, Mike, Mike Morheim, and Frank Pierce.

我当时没意识到这些午餐的意义，我只是很喜欢，因为在那里我感觉做自己。

And what I didn't realize what these lunches were, like, I just loved them because I felt like I was myself.

我被这些谈论电子游戏的人包围时，感受到了真正的快乐，和他们在一起我感到很自在。

I felt true happiness being surrounded by these, you know, people who were talking about video games, and I felt comfortable around.

有一天，罗布登录了《无尽的任务》。

And one day, Rob logs into EverQuest.

当时他玩得不多。

He wasn't playing much at the time.

他说，明天你去查看一下暴雪的招聘网站。

He said, I want you tomorrow to check the Blizzard job site.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我说，好啊。

I'm like, okay.

我会去查看暴雪的招聘网站。

Like, I'll check the Blizzard job site.

他们当时发布了《魔兽世界》，并在招聘网站上发布了相关信息。

And they had announced World of Warcraft and posted on the job site Mhmm.